Women Expect Too Much Empathy From Female Partners
The debate over the merits (or demerits) of having a female boss is a perennial one. Well, maybe not perennial, but has been going strong in recent decades since skirt suits on bosses have become the norm.
The American Lawyer sticks its toe in the perilous gender waters in an article in this month’s issue: The End of Sisterhood. In its sure-to-make-you-angry-if-you’re-XX intro, Vivia Chen says that female partners, counsel, associates, and staff attorneys are talking about gender equality while bonding over “sushi, cosmos, and the occasional mani/pedi treatment.”
After they imbibe too many cosmos though and the truth starts flowing, things might get a bit uncomfortable:
[S]cratch the surface a bit deeper, and some members of the sorority tell another story: that women—particularly their immediate superiors—can be their worst tormentors. Fact is, despite the veneer of harmony and the decades of shared struggle, there’s tension on the women’s front. Talk to any group of women lawyers, and there will be plenty of war stories on the betrayals—real or perceived—that they have experienced at the hands of other women.
Sounds promising, right? But there are no juicy cat fights in the story. Just statistics. If you have stories, feel free to share in the comments.
After the jump, we’ll tell you more about why women don’t like working for other women.
The article says that in an American Bar Association survey from last year, a majority of 1,400 female lawyers under 40 said they preferred working for dudes. The reason? Men are better at giving constructive criticism and keeping confidences.
The article says there’s more to it than that though:
Women expect other women to be more empathetic and nicer—or at least hope they’ll be. When their women bosses aren’t, some women feel betrayed. And that betrayal can feel especially sharp and personal coming from someone who shares XX chromosomes.
To translate: ladies, don’t expect your female colleagues to be nurturers. And stop getting mani/pedis together, says Chen.
A good starting point would be to lower expectations. In fact, those cozy after-work gatherings might be promoting a false sense of intimacy that belies the inevitable tensions of a work relationship.
Female readers, feel free to lambaste Kash for stirring up the gender waters with this article. She won’t feel betrayed.
The End of Sisterhood [American Lawyer]
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first
First.
*blam*
No class of people since the beginning of history has been more spoiled, more entitled than the 21st century American white female.
Aw, crap. Missed.
I prefer working for women (I'm a guy), my wife prefers working for men... and hates her current female boss. Personally I think cross-gender working relationships are more civil.
'OMG, like...so my frenemy at the office, like...I was SOOOO like WTF?!!!!'
Who the fuck cares if some pathetic women want to transplant their college-years "Sex and the City" bubble into a place of business?
Are you kidding me? In all my years, the thought of ever going out for a mani/pedi with either my boss or someone who worked with me, never crossed my mind. Business is business and personal is personal. You can be pleasant to the people with whom you work, but always remember the fine line of boss/subordinate.
This is so racist.
Did Kash refer to herself in the third person again? That's hot.
Schtick guy is lame.
Is this news?
Any woman will you tell you that working for a female boss is terrible.
None of this is unique to women.
Any man will ALSO tell you that having a female boss is terrible.
They take everything personally; they are incapable of being dispassionate; and they have something to prove by being a hardass.
Even a woman that doesn't get overly emotional about business STILL has to prove that she isn't weak. A boss with something to prove is the WORST.
Couldn't agree more with you 12. I have worked for 2 women and most of the time it was mania. Screaming, always trying to prove you're better than the guys at everything, belittling everyone, women worse than men, about every perceived imperfection whether the size of her ass or the quality of her lawyering.
Seriously, I never bought into all of the stereotypical women in the workplace BS-until I worked for a few!
Women < Men
Stop reporting about women and their issues in the workplace. Women are intellectually inferior to men in every respect. They're lucky that we even let them out of the kitchen let alone hold positions of importance.
I prefer women be in the kitchen or at the very least bent over a desk so as to allow me easy access to pound them in the ass.
2, love the R. Budd Dwyer shtick. Bravo.
I am a female attorney and have experienced lots of problems with other females in higher positions. My supervising partner is male and I am grateful for that. I would rather work directly with men than women any day.
In my experience, male partners usually give you much more responsibility - they want your help. Many female partners are intimidated by their younger subordinates. This is just my experience - I'm sure there are plenty of great female partners out there. I just haven't worked with any.
I've never worked for a female partner (although if I had one word to describe the reputations of female partners at my firm, it would be "scary"). But working with other female associates can be its own hell. All gossip, all backstabbing, all the time. I never once heard a male associate jabbing about another male associate behind his back. But the females? Yikes.
Words of advice to female associates: keep things on a strictly professional level with other female associates -- don't share personal information, or it will be used against you down the road. Don't get sucked into the gossip game. And watch your back.
While she believed that a woman was competent to be president, Rand said that "...by the nature of her duties and daily activities," a female president "would become the most unfeminine, sexless, metaphysically inappropriate, and rationally revolting figure of all: a matriarch."
17 = Slut who sleeps with her supervising partner.
When a group of in-house women ascended to the top of a local oil company's law department a friend of mine decided to get a job there. It'd be a sisterhood. It'd be so open and fun. They would show her the way to the top. So she thought.
It came to be known here as "The She-ocracy" and no one got treated worse by the fundamentalists running the show than new women lawyers like my friend. Walls went up between the lawyers and the business unit leaders. All communications had to be funnelled through the she-ites. Praise from business leaders for these new lawyers would always be followed by a whisper campaign, bad reviews and worse assignments.
So she quit. Her new mentor is male, she's in biglaw, and much happier.
18, 17, 13, 12, you guys are dead on. And I must be redundant and say that it is fundamental that working with or for anyone who feels they have something to prove is always going to be some form of hell.
Comment removed by moderator.
I would say that of course this is the case, but I'm a guy, so that would be totally sexist and misogynist to say so.
I will say that I have worked with some great female partners, but they have all been specialists. The litigators and M&A lawyers are the worst because those practices require bravado and the female version of trying to pretend to be a BSD.
As a mid-level male associate, this is my experience continuum for the various partner demographics for whom I've worked:
Gay male > straight male ~= gay female >> straight female.
(To be honest though, the one lesbian for whom I've worked might as well have been a straight dude) Your mileage may vary.
"Women Expect Too Much Empathy From Female Partners"
Not that I really care about gender issues (I judge individuals not entire classes). Do you think you could slap a "?" at the end of this title?
Seems more appropriate that way.
I am glad this is finally being brought up. The only time I ever had problems at work was when I worked for a female partner (which happened once in seven years I spent in BigLaw).
They actually are nicer and they do help their own. Every call back I got at OCI from a female interviewer -- none from the male interviewers.
They actually are nicer and they do help their own. Every call back I got at OCI was from a female interviewer.
25 is right about one thing (unless I misinterpret) - working for a gay guy is the best
@23 - I think I know who you are talking about. Does her name sound like broccoli?
women are jealous and don't want competition. women partners had to work harder than their male counterparts to get where they did, and they want other women to "earn" it too
28, while that may be true, an interview is quite different from trying to get legal work finished under time pressure.
12 makes a great point. I wonder what causes female partners to feel they have something to prove - whether it derives from perceived sexism around them or just their own personalities.
Thank you for finally addressing this issue. I know many women who have struggled with how to interact with competive, but ultimately more senior, female associates and partners.
I had a horrible summer associate experience at a firm, due almost entirely to the catty and insecure female associates. The male associates, on the other hand, were welcoming and helpful. It was awful, and I didn't return.
I thought the job would be great.
"With girls I can surely relate!"
But it was pure hell,
And did not go well,
When we all began to menstrate.
- Mrs. Mystal.
some women even act cool to gain confidences so that they can gain power in the relationship and swing their knowledge like a carat to remind you that they can and will fuck you at any time. those women are the true scum. and i've personally experienced that from both gay and straight women. so yes, now i don't dare fall into the trap of making work "friends". my experience has been that women generally cannot be trusted (and i am a woman who is a steel trap when it comes to information because i know how it feels to be talked about), especially when they work in environments like big law where the concept of "job security" is nonexistent.
Yes. I second the whole working for a gay guy. They were literally the best bosses I had at my old big firm and were the least under the bus throwing people there.
http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/devlin_home_ec_01.htm
In my decades of experience and observation, women cannot work together efficiently in a professional environment. I have witnessed women tear each other apart as a result of complimenting one over the other on a job well done. As a result, I no longer compliment anyone in public. Men can work together and set aside petty differences to get the job done. Women cannot do this. Which would you rather have in your peer or non-peer firm? Draw your conclusions based on my observation.
Real men prefer to work "for"/with real men.
25: I've never thought about it that way, but you're dead on.
PE - why don't you make another completely moronic and insensitive post about suicide... that way, we can all ream you again!
How about a blog called "The Last Bitch"?
STOP WRITING THESE WORTHLESS, SENSATIONALIST ARTICLES.
None of this would even be an issue if these "reports" weren't around: Stop the self-fulfilling prophecy.
-GULC
Women are only good for one, maybe 2 things.
42 - Move on, already.
If you can't, clearly you're not partner material.
I am a male. When I worked in biglaw I was supervised partly by a youngish female partner. She was very prickly and tried to wrong foot every single thing I said while tirelessly trying to elicit some manifestation of male attraction from me . She got along only with a few people in the office but was kept on because of her keen mind and work ethic. One story: after a series of 230 months I had a scheduled vacation with my new wife who the partner refused to talk to at practice group baby showers and miscellaneous gatherings. When I reminded her about my trip, she asked me to cut it one day short because she had a "project" for me. I asked her if instead I could come in right after lunch. She didn't like it but said yes. So on the last day of my vacation I woke up at 4 am (after packing the night before), drove 7 hours, and went straight into the office. When I told her I was in the office and ready to start her project she said she would get with me later. Of course she never got with me and the whole rush to get back into the office was for nothing.
I now work somewhere else. I'm a big believer in types. So irony of ironies, I end up working with the same type of woman (not for thankfully)--masculine as Chuck Liddel but desperate for you to find her attractive. She hires men exclusively and relishes ordering them around and flirting with them. I avoid her at all costs but the other day she squeezed past me in the hall way and brushed both breasts on my arm (had to be on purpose). I am a red-blooded male but I find iguanas to be more feminine than she is. She may have noticed the pain on my face but I'm not sure.
My approach to this type is to put up as high a wall as possible between you and to never ever give them what they want: attention.
I (male) have worked with both great and terrible men and women at a couple of different firms. Bottom line, there are assholes everwhere. Any partner who is any good at this job is usally an asshole in one way or another. The douchebaggery just manifests itself differently.
That said, I have seen some women partners treat female associates like crap for no good reason at all. There is no reason to get personal at the office. Ever. Women over 50 are usually the worst offenders. The problem usually is the world the associate grew up in is totally different from the world the 50+ women grew up in. Talk about a generational gap.
46, "partner material"? is that what life is about? are you in need of attention from 47? I bet you are ghastly.
Woman don't have dicks, and that says it all.
These comments prove beyond a shadow of a doubt my longstanding belief that ATL has no female readers or commenters whatsoever.
These comments prove beyond a shadow of a doubt my longstanding belief that ATL has no female readers or commenters whatsoever.
51,
Not even 44?
Kash, when did you last work at a firm? Women don't wear skirt suits anymore.
49, no, that is not what life is about. What compels you to make that imputation?
And, as a man, no, I am not in need of attention from 47.
So, apparently, it is too early to determine whether or not you are partner material. A lot can happen during high school.
These comments prove beyond a shadow of a doubt my longstanding belief that ATL has no female readers or commenters whatsoever.
In any event, 49, you clearly missed the point.
i'm a girl and the fact is that guys are just waaaaay better than girls in certain contexts. and it is true that guys make better bosses. and that's because they are less emotional. sorry sisters, but it's true.
I have found successful woman partners to be more demanding, I think because they had to work hard to prove themselves to the men, they want me to do the same. Less successful women partners can be easier to work for.
For an example, I had a managing woman partner say to me, shortly after returning from my second maternity leave, when I said that my husband and I were going away for a weekend without the kids she commented "well you better not get pregnant again." She laughed but I thought - who put you in charge of personal life?
Women bosses are very hard to work for. They are so needy and endlessly tallying their pull in the office. Their capacity for common meanness never ceases to amaze me. Men are just more easygoing and confident. I have not had a decent female boss in my 18 years of being a working grunt.
I pity da fool who have to work fo a woman
These women who want this sort of empathy should have become teachers instead of lawyers.
25 and 37 are on to something - I've had very similar experiences.
It is insteresting though, in a post purely about gender comparisons, we add sexual orientation as a valid qualifier(and not, for example, ethnicity or age). I guess it makes sense - the biggest defining aspect each gender is (usually) to whom that gender is sexually attracted.
Former Biglaw attorney here. This thread is really about what Rosabeth Moss Kanter termed as the "Mean and Bossy Woman Boss" (MABWB) stereotype. Firms that are committed to having (and that do have) female parity in the partnership and associate ranks are less likely to suffer from MABWB stereotypes, which tend to be a function of statistical nonparity in the organization and gender-based expectations where the same behavior by males and females is perceived differently.
Seconded, skirt suits are now borderline inappropriate.
I am a female attorney and I've had both experiences. My first supervisor was a female partner and she was excellent. She didn't make anything personal. Oddly enough, I think it helped that she was on a reduced hours shcedule. She came to the office, did her work and left. No extra time for the female bullsh*t. She was also a great trainer and a fabulous attorney. She quit because she hated the politics of BigLaw.
I've also worked for a different female partner who had the mentality that poster 59 wrote about - it was hard for her, so she is going to make it hard on me too.
I do hate working for men who have no clue what a life outside the office is. Who all have stay at home wives and girlfriends who do everything for them. At least (most) women attorneys understand the dynamics of being a full time working attorney, mother and wife. Oh- you have to take your kid to the doctor or pick up dry cleaning? where's your stay at home b*tch who does that?
Men also write you off the second you get knocked up; most women don't.
I think I know #17. Well said.
I'm a woman and I've worked with GREAT women partners and SHITTY women partners. But I would say on average the women that I've worked for have been cool, and for me it's much easier to turn a woman into a mentor. With women I'm more likely to suggest lunch or other extra-office activities. With men, it feels more awkward to get the ball rolling. The biggest jerk I ever worked for was a guy (talk about back-stabbing and being two-faced, I was completely blind-sided). So I guess it depends. But I've never worked at a white-shoe NY firm, so maybe things are different in that environment.
About fifteen years ago, I was very suprised when my sec'y told me she would MUCH rather have a male boss. I guess she isn't alone.
I got along fine working for the two most notorious male senior partners at my BigLaw firm, but a well-respected glass-ceiling-shattering-pioneer partner drove me f'ing batshit crazy. She wasn't mean, she was just an abysmal boss. But then I left and had three terrific female bosses in a row. So there are obviously a lot of variables. I just spent 200 words saying nothing.
Manicures, brunch, and lip gloss
are all fetishes of my new boss.
She comes in to give work
But I end up with a jerk -
Making other associates cross.
-- by: The Lim Ricker
66 - Perhaps you simply made the wrong choice.
I would work for Kash's asslobster anyday. I think it would be a nice change of pace.
64-- Stop trying to confuse the issue with drivel.
66 - Perhaps you simply made the wrong choice.
I used to be a male partner but now am a female partner.
What does that make me?
A lot of insecure females are out there. And they are the monsters. If you find a secure female and she is in the right specialization at the right firm, you probably have a dynamo.
Just shut up, "Partner Emeritus." You blew it.
39 -
STFU
You're done here.
78 -- correct.
- 77 (who is not 78, oh, and STFU asswipe who posts as "Partner Emeritus.")
I used to be a male partner but now am a female partner.
What does that make me?
55, 58, I just want to know what "partner material" means, that's all. Please define.
Don't men bond with male superiors over drinking in just the same way women bond over another activity? it is all work relationships. the men can't let their guard down with each other, and neither can women over "mani/pedis" (honestly, have you EVER done that with a female boss? really?) Your boss is not your friend, regardless of gender.
79 = 78
I've never had a male boss give me the "silent treatment." But I worked with a female boss who thought this was an acceptable way to be tough at work. That's not to say that there aren't great female bosses out there. I just haven't worked for one.
55, 58, you're also right that making partner is NOT my big dream in life. There is much much much more to life than making partner. And my observation indicates that the only "good" that comes from making partner is making more money and being able to really flex muscles a low self-esteem has been dying to. But please do me the honor of explaining "partner material."
At my firm it works like this:
Female counsel and female part-time partners = awesome
Full-time female partner = usually either childless and married, totally ugly and unmarried, or had children but never interact with them and had a nanny do everything.
The full-time female partners are usually about 10x worse than male partners regarding work/life balance and parental leaves.
83 - think the paradox that would create! Hopefully that paradox would lead to the person who is PE vanishing from existence...
In my not-so-humble and non-politically correct opinion, only two types of women survive as attorneys: 1) loud, ball busting man-haters who ironically make it their goal in life to prove to everyone that they are as tough as the toughest man and feel they can suceed only by "shouting down" or bullying the opposition; 2) the semi-competent "beatiful people" who dress like whores and/or are blowing the male bosses to get protection from the female bosses and better advancement opportunities.
Not much room for smart, hardworking, pleasant females with values.
86 = ugly? never interact with kids? give me a break
"partner material" means someone who is willing/able to screw other people for their own personal gain. That is the nature of a law firm partnership. Sure, you share the same buidling and overhead but you make money only by screwing over your associates and/or weaker partners. In order to make partner you need to be a "grab the bulls by the horns" I take what I want person.
Women who display such characteristics are hated by men for not being feminine enough and women who do not display such characteristics generally don't make partner.
54 & 65: I wear skirt suits all the time. But then again, I've got great legs, so I've got nothing to hide behind a pair of slacks.
81,85 - My point was that "partner material" includes, in part, the ability to move on. Try it.
McDermott Will & Emery treats women like crap. It's a horrible place to work. Plus, there are far too many worthless and clueless partners. Simply stated, McDermott Will & Emery sucks, particularly if you're a woman.
91, are you a secretary?
The only person I've had play catty power games with me is a man. He is constantly ostracizing the women at our office, to the point that a summer started complaining about how the women were never invited everywhere. He also makes inappropriate comments, but in such a borderline way that they make people uncomfortable, but aren't reportable because we all swear/tell jokes in the office.
So far, both the male and female partners are good to work for, in my experience. I've heard complaints about one female partner being demanding/jealous of your time, and one male partner putting things off to the last moment and then dumping them on junior people.
And I definitely second what someone upthread said about men writing you off once you get pregnant. Fortunately, the women partners at my office are willing to go to bat for me and make sure I still get good assignments. I don't think the men are deliberately being sexist jerks, I think they just have assumptions about childbearing, and the women partners in the office, having been on the receiving end of those assumptions, want to protect women associates from them.
I've worked for insecure, incompetent male partners who back-stab eachother (and counsel, and associates), gossip, the whole bit. I think it really comes down to self-esteem and competence.
I understand where people are coming from with the older female partners though. I've run into those dragon ladies too. The only thing to do with them is to stay clear and hope they retire.
Working for a woman boss is impossible for one reason: Women are incapable of having someone disagree with them or question them without taking it as a personal attack.
In her mind, if you want to cut paragraph 6 of the brief, its not because its a crummy argument, its because you think she dumb/inferior, and therefore she takes your opinion as a personal affront to her intelligence. Its like when your wife trys on an ugly dress and asks how she looks. If you say "the dress looks ugly" she inteprets it as " you look ugly."
The worst boss I've had was a woman.
The best boss I've had was a woman.
It is all dependent on personality not gender.
94: No, dear. I'm not a secretary.
I used to work with the WORST FEMALE PARTNER in history. I am not kidding, she was NUTS. She is around 50, her husband took care of the kids (which is cool) and she was at the firm for a long time.
I don't know what happened to this woman to make her so horrible, but I know she had it tough early in her career. She was especially mean to women, and meaner if they were attractive.
People would walk around the entire office, through file rooms, etc., so they could avoid even the slightest encounter with this woman. The associates that worked with her truly wished that she would burn to death....in the middle of the desert so she wouldn't die from smoke inhalation and feel every moment of her death.
She would give you projects and want you to put her stuff first, no matter what so you would have to put off other projects and piss off the somewhat normal partners, she would ALWAYS tell you that you did the project wrong, even if you followed her exact instructions. She would throw things at people. Worst of all, if you ever stood up to her or got her in trouble, she would go on a campaign to have you fired. In one instance, she diverted work from an associate to make the associate's hours low, then complained to other partners about the associate's low hours. I could go on forever. After screaming at her secretary, her secretary went into labor and had her son prematurely.
I have never encountered anyone so horrible in my life. I know her psychological problems were caused by a number of factors, but I think that being the only female partner there definitely contributed to her severe mental issues. I guess it also didn't help that she looked like a man.
God I hated that woman! Working with her was absolute hell. Good riddance you ugly bitch! You know who you are. hah!
I am a female associate and I hate working for female partners. Without fail, they are backstabbing, catty, and passive aggressive towards female associates - particularly those of us with children. In general, the attitude I've encountered is that I haven't "earned" the right to have children (i.e. I didn't wait until I was 45 and needed IVF, I had them young) and therefore I am lazy and not serious about my career. While I was part time, the men were generally respectful, but the women took the attitude that I didn't "deserve" it. In their eyes, the fact that I didn't spend my 20s and early to mid thirties only slaving away with the goal of partnership at the center of my universe meant that I was not a worthy lawyer.
One of the two partners I worked for the first 4 years of practicing was a woman. She was a lot meaner, condescending and miserable to work with than the male partner. I think it mainly was due to ack of perspective and lack of management training.
After the first few years, I think issues were addressed by the powers that be and after that she was wonderful to work for. She would say a sincere "thanks" after projects were over, she would be more responsive to questions asked. Overall became friendly and likeable (a tremendous feat considering the first couple of years).
I think that women often have to work so hard to prove themselves that they forget that things need to change, esp when they become owners (ie partners) of the business. Being owners means that you invest patience and guidance to the associates that work for you, because a loyal associate does better work, not to mention willingly, and this is better for business and profits in the short and long run. It's just about making that decision to take a little more effort and time to make the associate feel like a team player.
I think women have an incredible potential to be leaders and team players. When that day comes, it will be empowering for women and men because the world will just be a better place :) sigh**
Wow, ATL! You give us articles about race and sex on the same day? How am I supposed to get any work done?
It all comes down to the individual person. I have worked for some terrible men and some wonderful women. This article is about women not wanting to work with women however. My wife tells me she avoided working with a woman like the plague. I think this goes to show that good looking women have a much easier time of it when they work with a man. Guys just give the girls an easier time of it. (I wonder why?)
One of the two partners I worked for the first 4 years of practicing was a woman. She was a lot meaner, condescending and miserable to work with than the male partner. I think it mainly was due to ack of perspective and lack of management training.
After the first few years, I think issues were addressed by the powers that be and after that she was wonderful to work for. She would say a sincere "thanks" after projects were over, she would be more responsive to questions asked. Overall became friendly and likeable (a tremendous feat considering the first couple of years).
I think that women often have to work so hard to prove themselves that they forget that things need to change, esp when they become owners (ie partners) of the business. Being owners means that you invest patience and guidance to the associates that work for you, because a loyal associate does better work, not to mention willingly, and this is better for business and profits in the short and long run. It's just about making that decision to take a little more effort and time to make the associate feel like a team player.
I think women have an incredible potential to be leaders and team players. When that day comes, it will be empowering for women and men because the world will just be a better place :) sigh**
I wonder why nobody has mentioned this little tidbit:
Every woman partner (or associate for that matter) you have ever met or worked for, was firstly a female law student.
Now, go observe the behavior and dynamics between female law students. Pay particular attention to the ones at T14 schools or on Law Reviews at other T1 schools.
Now are you surprised by how female attorneys act?
I am LOVING this post.
I must say that not all women partners are this way. But many are. Not all men partners are great, but the bad women are horrible.
Women in the ranks...you've got to make damn sure that you aren't like these people, because, to be honest, those damn women are also an obstacle in your path.
Think about it. If you've got a bunch of normal people (women included) who recognize that a large portion of women partners make life hell when promoted...then you're going to be wary of the women-folk.
Keep things real...it's not about man/woman, it's about good/bad work and being a tolerable human being. The women (and men) who can do that will be better off in the long run.
99:
You are what this thread is about.
I work for a female litigator. I'm not saying it's a 24/7 walk in the park but she has an underserved reputation around the office for being a bitch because she's the only senior partner in litigation who is a female. Sure you might have to eat crow if you work for her but she doesn't play hide the ball, she'll stand up for you to other partners, and you always know where you stand with her. I can't always say the same for the senior litigation partners who are male. They definitely play favorites with the male associates and you've got to fight for responsibility as a female.
A penny saved is a woman fired...I look forward to the day when we can send them all back to the kitchen.
Wanna hear a funny joke?
Women in the workplace!
107: How do you mean?
- 99
109-funny thing is, they're kinda worthless there too--how many of the best chefs in the world are women, hmmmmm?
forget female partners. female senior associates are the worst bosses. talk about having something to prove!
I agree. In law school I would observe them strutting around in their high heels in some imaginary world where they envision themselves as Carrie Bradshaw with brains. Many of which look like Susan Boyle.
Now I see them around the office trying to flirt one minute then reaming someone the next. Complete neurotics whose personal issues interfere with the synergy of the office. Keep them in the back or on their back
Is it always the same person whose comments involve pounding somebody in the ass, or are there more than one of you?
1. I totally agree with 90.
2. My best boss ever was a non-lawyer straight married childless woman. This was in a life before law school. She was the best. Maybe law school makes women nasty, like men.
3. The mommy wars are a huge factor, though that was not covered in Kash's article. The whole work/life balance issue, part-time/full-time, maternity leave coverage. There's a lot of baggage there men are not burdened with as much. Women have to prove themselves above-and-beyond if they are or plan to be parents. Non-moms have an advantage in their available time that can be dedicated to the career. It's a big issue where the women compete against each other.
4. Love working for the gay man. Bonus -- they don't hit on straight me!!!!
I am a female associate and the worst partner that I ever worked for was female (actually, AK of Charney fame). While there are asshole partners of both genders at law firms, I believe the weeding out process of partnership selects more more difficult, snarky, ball busting female partners. I understand they needed to be back in the day to make partner, but that doesn't make make me want to work for them.
Off topic but in college I generally avoided female TAs for subjective classes (i.e., poli sci as opposed to science classes). They seemed to grade based on whether you agreed with their opinions/philosophy as opposed to the quality of your written work. Wasn't all of them, but if sigh unseen I had a choice of several sections, I always chose the male TA.
The craziest boss I've ever had (my present boss) is a dude - insecure, narcissistic, vicious. A very good lawyer, though, so it's worth it if you can stand it. I've worked with micromanaging women and micromanaging men. I've worked with some wonderful female partners and some terrible ones - it all depends. I do, however, think there's behavior that's tolerated in men that's not tolerated in women and that that colors a lot of perceptions about how women are to work with.
"Men also write you off the second you get knocked up; most women don't."
I have had the same experience, strangely even more so from younger men. It's not always done consciously or to be nasty, but I have found that a lot of dudes presume I'll be slowing down (or even quitting!) after having a child. Hey, buddy, just because your wife quit her job the second that EPT turned up positive doesn't mean I'm going to.
The AmLaw article accurately describes a female partner at Wilson Sonsini. She complains all the time about how the firm mistreats female associates, doesn't nurture them, etc., but completely overlooks the fact that she single-handedly has driven more female associates from the firm than any other partner.
To be fair, she's an equal opportunity offender. In the ten years she's been at the firm, none of her associates (not one) has made partner even though she's been on the executive committee for most of her time at WSGR.
it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. different expectations, more obstacles = making it to the top makes you crazier.
that said, i've worked for both crazy and non-crazy partners of both sexes in fairly equal numbers. when i worked in an office that was 85% female, there was the least drama of anywhere i've ever worked, i will say that.
i do think a lot of it is generational so hopefully when the associates of my generation grow up to be partners, we'll be better to work for.
Latham Truth # 9:
Latham fired 3 pregnant women during their layoffs. But never fear, they have plenty of women only meetings to talk about women issues. Current pregnant women are scared that they will be fired.
@120.
If they were fired because they were pregnant, that's abhorrent.
But 190 associates were fired, and 250 staff. I'm assuming half or so of those were women (likely more than half because "staff" tend to be more often female, but I'll stick with half for now). That means just about 1.3% of the women fired were pregnant. Consider now that associates tend to be of child-bearing ages, 25-40, and the length of pregnancy is 9 months, and you can pretty well chalk this "scandal" up to statistics.
Look at it this way, if every woman had exactly 1 child in the time she were an associate or staff with Latham, say 10 years total, and was pregnant in the office for 6 months of that, one would expect that on average 5% of the women would be fired while pregnant: that's 9-10 associates and 12-13 staff. You can do the arithmetic just as well as me.
Sounds to me like pregnant women were *under* represented in the pool of fired workers.
To 118:
Who is the WSGR female partner? Initials, please. Thx.
Women are roughly 50% of the legal population now.
Do you think maybe it's a bit of a stretch to think that a group that large will ALL have the same characteristics as the one person you worked for that one time a while ago... Grow up.
I have had male bosses who sucked, but I didn't think it was because all men everywhere are psycho to work for. That one guy who kept trying to grab my butt was a dick, most guys aren't dicks. If you worked for a woman, and it was awful, maybe she was one of the bad ones. Or maybe she was just having a hard time dealing with someone who saw her as a demographic first, person second.
Some female partners are great, but, I've found most to be spiteful to female associates. I really think this is because they are unhappy. For the most part, these women seem to have shit marriages and kids they never see becasue that's what firms demand. Instead of trying to make things better, these women perpetuate the cycle by treating everyone else like crap. Thus, why I no longer work at a firm.
Maybe because old nasty female partners are jealous of the 24 year old female associates? That the male partners and associates surely make comments about?
Its biology. 50 year old hags need loving too.
As a female partner, I find that one mistake that female associates make is assuming an affinity with me merely because I am a woman. I try to build relationships with the associates I like and respect. This does not arise because of your gender. The relation gets formed because you are good. I have worked with some great female associates, giving them good work, visability and support through the compensation and promotion cycle. I do the same for the guys. If you don't earn this kind of relationship, you won't get it and it is really irritating when you behave like you are entitled to it because we are women.
I also don't want to be your friend and confidant. That can happen if we work together for a period of time, but I am not lookiing for that in an associate I value. Start your work relationships by keeping things professional.
Lastly, don't tell me about how hard it is to work in private practice and raise a family and automatically expect me to find a way to make it easier merely because I also am a woman. Working at a firm is gruelling. It is hard to manage my life and I find that I want balance too, but that is not always possible in these jobs -- for men or women. So I really do empathize, but that does not mean that I can or want to help you. There has to be something more between us than that we are women.
There is a partner at McDermott who takes female associates for manicures at Georgetown nails, acts like your best friend and then stabs you in the back during reviews. She has blocked more than one promotion of someone she calls her friend. She is just getting back after having a baby. I wonder if she will be any better.
126: You're a partner and nobody's ever advised you against using "lastly" in prose?
128, this is a blog, not a brief. I don't have a problem with a more casual style. Ellie sets an easy standard and I am just following his lead.
Female attorneys are simply the worst... I'll take the worst male attorney any day. The female attorneys usually cop out and do the maternity thing, or they just turn mean, manipulative, and vindictive. Male attorneys just soldier on through and go with the flow. Male attorneys have longevity, females don't. Sorry, ladies, but you might have a higher IQ, but role the clock... and it's the male attorneys who are left standing.
130, I've worked with some real knucklehead guys. Right now, the women beat the men in terms of smarts and work quality. The guys might be left standing, but it is not because they are better lawyers. They just aren't married to men who impregnate them and then expect them to stay home raising a family. Women play this role because most guys won't. So what choice does a couple have?
Only 1 in 20 female attorneys is partner material.
A) I have worked for women and have women working for me.
B) Women are not as good at leading in hierarchical organizations like lawfirms.
C) The women I supervise love me because I am nice to them and I mollycoddle them. This is partly the result of my fear of the power they have to ruin my career by even whispering about any form of impropriety on my part. It is also the result of my inability to deal with people who cry (thus I yell at my male associates but not the female ones).
Why are the majority of male attorneys married to blonde women? Is this an intellectual genetic predisposition? Or was this instilled in them during the frat years?
133, I am female. I think that what you say is so true and so funny. I like working for guys like you too.
Women can lead, but to lead you have to care about the firm without caring too much. I think that is hard for many women and men. Leading a firm requires that you can rapidly sort through a lot a BS and keep everyone thinking you are looking out for them without really doing anything. guys are great at this.
Isn't Goodwyn managed by a woman?
In my experience, MWE has too many women that are horrible capital partners. Look at Corporate, Telecom and Lit for some perfect examples. Finding solid role models is nearly impossible in that crowd. Very disappointing.
Most of the male partners at McDermott suck too. Think of the capital partner in the corner office with one client -- think he'll lose that client soon?
137, I'm in DC. You?
How did 'jewess' and 'thong' not get included in this dialogue?
You people suck.
139, Huh?
Working with women is an awful experience. They basically operate in bizzarro-land where everything is all about them. One of their comments didn't get taken? In their mind, it won't be because the change was unnecessary or wrong (even if it just plan was) but it would be reconstructed into some convoluted roundabout insult or power-play that she will gab to everyone in earshot about. They try to blame everyone else for their mistakes and take credit for everyone else's good work. They can't do the job without putting their own internally generated illusions/bullshit or emotions complicate everything for everyone.
As a general proposition, gay men do rule. That said, I'm a woman partner (litigation) with a couple of BigLaw stints under my, um, belt (skirt - maybe short - suit anyone?). The BSD's can be better AND worse than any given HEmale woman partner. MWE (which I left many years ago) is a case in point. I had really good experiences there with male AND female partners (including JS and PS - ambiguity intended) - and for that matter, had good and bad experiences with male and female associates. I've also seen male AND female associates (predominantly in the last decade and at firms beyond MWE) act super-entitled, and expect that the biz will take 2d chair to personal considerations, but women get 'blamed' more all the way around for this phenomenon - BS. Bottom line, show up, do your work, work the work, keep the biz the biz, be professional AND nice (an antiquated concept to some of the posters here) and generally things work out...except of course when economics come into play, and then it's every BSD for himself (and his BSD buddies). Good luck to all you young 'uns. Women ARE half the workforce in this industry and they are not gonna decline so everybody should get happy with each other and make it work! Better for all of us...........
See woman lawyer in Michael Clayton. She is the prototypical woman lawyer at big law firm. I'm not kidding. I work with about six of her.
116 references the notorious AK. To provide some balance, far and away one of the best corp. attorneys to work with there in the early part of this decade was a woman. For someone working under her, she was a fantastic mentor. There are at least several other examples of female attorneys who have great reputations.
I think anyone who's worked in Biglaw for a sufficient amount of time -- and hasn't become the permanent acolyte of one particular partner -- has had to deal with his or her share of unpleasant personalities of both genders. There is definitely some truth to the stereotypes written here about women, but I think it's overblown, and most fair minded people recognize that. These discussion threads obviously attract people with an axe to grind against particular individuals or groups of people. The broader one's experience, the less relevant these stereotypes become.
One other note -- I've read a lot above about the stereotype of insecure women. You can stereotype male senior associates that way, too. There are Napolean complexes. People who have no life outside the office (or are married and don't care for their life outside the office); whose self-esteem depends on their putative standing with their bosses. They are absolutely subservient to their bosses and absolutely brutal to their subordinates. As David Halberstam put it in the Best And the Brightest (describing McGeorge Bundy), consummate beaureaucrats. Generally not good lawyers in my opinion.
I also think that women supervisors are hard to work for, but I've also worked with male supervisors who threw fits, would stab anyone in the back, and were just all around nasty. I've often wondered if it was more of a percentage problem than a gender problem. I mean, let's say 80% of all partners are monsters (and that may just be because of the selective pressure of making the partnership), the chances of working with a female monster partner will be higher than working a male monster partner since there are so few female partners and so many more male partners to choose from.
It's not empathy people are looking for...it's not being fucked over, which is par for the course.
Hiring partner explains the disconnect well.
http://hiringpartneradvice.blogspot.com/2009/03/loyalty.html
By the time any woman makes it to the partner level, she is going to behave exactly the same way a male partner will. That means she will throw you to the wolves to save herself, stab you in the back if necessary, and so on and so forth - just like the men. I've worked for some great women supervisors, and I've worked for some really wretched male supervisors. The bottom line is that big law is a very hyper competitive place. It brings out the beast in everyone.
Should be stating the obvious here, but both male and female attorneys (gay or straight) can be wonderful or horrible to work with. I've had good and bad experiences with each, which I imagine is typical.
Expectations play a big role - if you come into a meeting with a woman expecting to deal with a raving lunatic or your BFF just because you're dealing with a woman, those preconceptions will help shape your experience. And since such a small percentage of the partnership in firms is female, your experience with that one woman may be your only experience with a female partner, opening the door to a stereotype.
I'm hoping that the comments about all female partners being nightmares are only out there to stir the pot. It disturbs me (more than it should, I'm sure) that anyone would really bring those attitudes into the workplace and into interactions with colleagues. Most of us just have a job to do and want to get it done well.
133--Dean on. We have one female associate at our office who cries on a daily basis. I mean come on, this in a professional work environment, habitual crying is just not acceptable. I understand if your mother died or you just got fired, but some women cry anytime someone levels (or they perceive someone levels) negative criticism against them.
They should be a new ABA Rule: No Crying in Law Firms
47:
I am female and can say that the personality you describe can be attributed to male partners as well- the partner who wants you to think he is smart, debonaire and powerful (and, of course, attractive). He will take up your time beguiling you with stories that are supposed to impress you with how worldly he is and how important he is on the social totem pole. He will ask what your boyfriend does and then make catty comments about said boyfriend's profession and he will call you on your cell late at night or early in the morning on weekend demanding to speak with you immediately about "important" deal points that don't really exist or aren't important at all- and certainly don't need to be discussed at 10 o'clock on a Saturday night or 5 a.m. on a Sunday.
Bottom line: male or female these personalities are the same pathetic personalities and they suck.
Wow. You know, there are women that are a*holes and there are men that are a*holes. And everyone should watch their own backs at the workplace, and not say something that they don't want to come back and bit them in their ass.
I've worked for some great and rotten bosses, male, female, gay, straight...
One of life's only truisms is that "ass-hattedness" knows no racial, gender, or religious boundaries.
Wow. You know, there are women that are a*holes and there are men that are a*holes. And everyone should watch their own backs at the workplace, and not say something that they don't want to come back and bite them in their ass.
I've worked for some great and rotten bosses, male, female, gay, straight...
One of life's only truisms is that "ass-hattedness" knows no racial, gender, or religious boundaries.
Interesting thread -- but a huge disappointment to see how many people fall into the generalization trap.
I agree with those who plead the "people are people" line. I'm a woman and have had awful and amazing experiences with both men and women as my supervisors. However, the bad experiences have far outnumbered the good. My general take is that the law profession attracts needy and insecure personalities that crave control and power.
I too am loathe to generalize BUT when I was a fifth year associate and had a child, all the male partners for whom I worked were supportive and agreed that I could work part-time. The two female partners were the ones who opposed it, and I therefore had to leave the firm to practice part-time elsewhere. I am the last person who'd want to be critical of women, but sadly, my experience has left me less eager to work for women.
Stereotypes, stereotypes. I am a female lawyer and actually, all the people, both male and female, I've ever worked for had their negative points. I've worked for male attorneys with big ego problems and a-hole personalities. I've worked for women attorneys with mental health issues. The only way to get away from crazy lawyers is to work for yourself, which is what I am doing. I try my best not to recreate those lousy work environments for my interns/employees.
Stereotypes, stereotypes. I am a female lawyer and actually, all the people, both male and female, I've ever worked for had their negative points. I've worked for male attorneys with big ego problems and a-hole personalities. I've worked for women attorneys with mental health issues. The only way to get away from crazy lawyers is to work for yourself, which is what I am doing. I try my best not to recreate those lousy work environments for my interns/employees.
This is all so much whining! As a former female partner, I believe the problem is one of expectations. In my experience, women who worked for me somehow expected me to cut them some slack if their work was inadequate. I was always very understanding when other lawyers--men or women--had personal issues, but I would not tolerate inferior work from anyone who worked for me. The women who did great work, always loved working for me. Lawyers who didn't--again, male or female--didn't like me. It is also annoying when younger women lawyers act so tentatively--e.g., "I think X?"--that question sing-song. It does not inspire confidence, in partners or clients.
In short--grow up, ladies!
126 said it best!
126 said it best!
my wife and I have long discussed how women treat each other worse than men do, by far. it's not just at the workplace, either -- check out a group of girls interested in a guy. if one goes in, the others will stop at nothing to crush her in an attempt to get him for themselves. guys are different.
my wife and I have long discussed how women treat each other worse than men do, by far. it's not just at the workplace, either -- check out a group of girls interested in a guy. if one goes in, the others will stop at nothing to crush her in an attempt to get him for themselves. guys are different.
Female Of Counsel in Biglaw here. I generally agree that it really depends on the person and not the gender. Just from my own personal observations, however, it seems that women who don't have families are the worst offenders. They've spent their whole lives working and really don't understand the whole work/family/balance issue. Some seem resentful that you are even attempting to find a balance and are just making the whole lot of us female attorneys look bad. The ones who have family and strive for balance are not (not surprisingly) in the positions of power, so even if they want to help you, they can do so in only a limited capacity. One of the absolute worst bosses I have had (pre-law career) was female who was married and had a child. She screamed and threw things, was a total control freak and just a total nightmare.
That being said, some of the most back-stabbing, conniving, ruthless, gossip-spreading attorneys I have worked with and for have been male. So, I think it really just depends on the organization and the luck of the draw of what type of person you end up working with.
I left life in a government agency ruled by women to a civil firm ruled by men and am so much happier. I found that the older women in my old office were stand-offish and often made remarks about how those of us who were younger had it so "easy." But what was much worse were the younger (mid-30s) women who wanted to find "Friends" in their subordinates. Unless you went to every tupperware/cabi/avon party they threw (I hate these parties) they would stab you in the back. And if you did go but didn't spend "enough" then you still got talked about. IE I spent $300 on clothes I hated - but my supervisor holding the party (equivlant to a managing partner) told my co-workers she couldn't believe what a "penny pincher" I was.
The worst was the woman who told me in my first meeting with her that she felt I'd gotten married too young (at the age of 27) and I should have waited at least 5 more years. She treated those of us in my class who were married as second class citizens, while the "single girls" went out for "spa dates" and had dinner at her house, then talked about it endlessly in the office.
Now that I work in a male-dominated office, there is a much clearer line between professional and personal relationships. Everyone gets along at the office, or at least tries to. And the best part is that I haven't been forced to attend one tupperware party.
From what I gather, female partners don't like other female associates. they're competitive. they don't want the new younger blond chick to be more successful or have an easier time than they did.
chicks are crazy. what's new?
From what I gather, female partners don't like other female associates. they're competitive. they don't want the new younger blond chick to be more successful or have an easier time than they did.
chicks are crazy. what's new?
What a sexist article followed by many spiteful sexist comments. A bad boss can come in many forms, to say either gender is better or worse than another based on personal experiences is just fully sexist and ignorant.
What a sexist article followed by many spiteful sexist comments. A bad boss can come in many forms, to say either gender is better or worse than another based on personal experiences is just fully sexist and ignorant.
What a sexist article followed by many spiteful sexist comments. A bad boss can come in many forms, to say either gender is better or worse than another based on personal experiences is just fully sexist and ignorant.
What a sexist article followed by many spiteful sexist comments. A bad boss can come in many forms, to say either gender is better or worse than another based on personal experiences is just fully sexist and ignorant.
Almost as ignorant as posting the same comment four times.