This is horrible news. As a deferred 3L who never expects to start, I must admit that I have thought about suicide lately. It just sucks so hard for everyone, and I really see no hope.

my condolences.

can you imagine how bad one's life must have been if a keeping a biglaw job was the only thing worth living for?

No shtick. This is very sad.

Very sad.

I am a STB 6th year and this is the first I am hearing about this. Very sad news.

2 -- Please seek help if suicidal ideation becomes anything more than a passing fantasy.

But we as attorneys are put in a strange position, aren't we? We have to disclose any mental health disorders we've been diagnosed with for bar applications (or if we move into higher level / secret government work). Add to that the idea that lawyers are "supposed" to be stressed out, unhappy with their jobs, but able to rise above all that, and we're de facto discouraged from getting help.
When you're entire identity comes from your work, and your work gets pulled out from under you, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often, sadly.

This is indeed tragic news. Please share with me in communal prayer for this fallen associate's family.

While on the topic, I reiterate that this is a tough business and not everyone is cut out for it. Being a stellar law student or lawyer is simply not enough. I hope the parents of the deceased associate do not begin to ponder whether their daughter would still be alive if Barrack Obama had not been elected to the presidency. After all, his policies have effectively driven down businesses in the private sector and this is the reason why work in the legal markets has dried up. Perhaps the reason why this fallen associate was terminated was as a result of the current economic tsunami. Again, the family should not even begin to entertain these questions.

Levy was a Counsel with more than a dozen SCOTUS appeals under his belt. He was not an associate.

Elie, check your facts.

PE, shut the fuck up. Honestly, you are annoying and nobody takes what you say seriously.

Lots of people I know are thinking/talking about suicide lately. Personally, if my offer gets revoked, I don't know what my other options would be. 200k in debt, had a job lined up, and now it all goes up in smoke? I refuse to live in poverty my whole fucking life after 8 years of higher education.

PE - a little over the line, buddy.

MIAMI HURRICANES U IMBECILES

get out the way or get smacked out the way

how bout those gay-tors slippin

This terrible. And so unecessary. It's a job, people! Life will go on. Getting fired is not the end of the world. Think of all you DO have to live for. Family, friends, love ones.

Wow, PE, that was fucking awful. Should have freaking listened to 4, asshole.

my deepest condolences to the family and the community.

I guess this a news site, but it's really more of a community. Why post names

8, loser!

PE needs to shut the fuck up.

my deepest condolences to the family and the community.

- laid-off first-year

First, my condolences to all involved. Second, what the hell motivated you to point out that "this is clearly not a copy-cat situation"? Why the hell would anybody have thought that, regardless of the timing? You have absolutely zero common sense.

PE is a junior at Michigan State. I know him. He got a 148 on his LSAT.

If the DEALBREAKER ad isn't turned off, I'm going to kill every last one of you freaking bastards. I swear to Christ, I'll do it.

Thank you, ATL, for your responsible reporting on this issue. Perhaps consider posting links to resources. Here is one that I have heard of: Kristin Brooks Hope Center, 1.800.784.2433, http://www.hopeline.com/2/contactus.asp

And to the commenters who were previously agitating for someone to kill themselves in their office or who were joking about suicide: Please stop. It is not a laughing or joking matter.

At least STB partners will be able to rest easy, knowing that such layoffs will keep their PPP above $2M this year.

you 3Ls thinking about suicide because you're deferred with 75k or because the offer might get rescinded... think about the 95% of people in your position who are unemployed or making less than 60,000 with less job security than you and SUCK IT UP.

This is just so tragic. I feel awful for the family and friends who were touched by this.

(PE - your comments were unnecessary, and what's worse they weren't funny. shame on you)

If you're thinking about suicide because of debt repayment, you're ridiculous and shouldn't be in the legal profession anyway. You have tons of time to pay off your loans. Go see a financial counselor who will help you generate a timeline, or generate yourself one. It's not that hard.

I have no idea why ATL even bothers covering a story like this - it's inappropriate, and the faux concern is even more obscene. People thinking about suicide are not coming to Above the Law for advice on life or how to handle hard times.

this is so so tragic. have we, as law students and attorneys, become so obsessed with prestige and career success that we use those things to weigh the merit of our lives? is there anything the ATL community can do to encourage a healthy separation between a career and the value of life?

25 - Fuck you, you heartless piece of shit

I going whup Partner Emeritus's cracker ass, right after my baby dadda tax he ass into the po house. Partner Emeritus is a heartless twerp.

The system was built to churn out top grads at a cost of 150k for a 160k/year Biglaw salary. If you take out the salary all you have is a bunch of people with shattered expectations and mountains of suffocating debt.

PE, your schtick has now officially gotten old.

Please correct. Mark Levy was a 60 year old counsel and head of his practice group (formerly assistant deputy AG and a partner at major firms). He was not an associate.

PE, you're the reason people hate lawyers.

I anonymously wish to pass along my profound condolences to the family because I know that this comment of mine on a random blog means the world to them.

For goodness sakes ATL, learn to block comments when reporting on suicides.

Get an f'ing clue 3 - it's incredibly humiliating to get laid off for no good reason other than to protect PPP. This is obviously someone who took her career very seriously. Getting dumped by a firm of STB's caliber is even worse. As another recently laid off BigLaw associate, I wake up every morning asking myself what I'm going to do with myself. That's assuming I got to sleep the night before, which isn't usually the case. From $250,000 a year to zero in a flash. Believe it or not, it's no fun.

DARWIN HUNGERS.

I wonder if some of the commenters are as cruel and rude in real life, or if they just feel some freedom to be jerks on here because they are anonymous. Your mothers would be ashamed of you.

28 -- i think you're wrong. everyone comes to ATL. perhaps not for 'advice' but to gauge the opinions of peers. and so many of us here are so negative. we could be more compassionate, especially in these hard times. that's all i'm saying.

I find the Partner Emeritus troll to be hilarious personally. I think he should be given his own column on Abovethelaw.

Since I don't expect this severe recession to end anytime soon the government needs to consider some kind of student loan forgiveness program for people without jobs. Otherwise, there are only to be a lot more suicides. Try servicing $200k in student loan debt on a $15 an hour job.

32 - yup. Those were the rules when I signed up to play. They've changed and now I'm fucked. I never would have taken on so much debt had I known.

Sincere condolences to the woman's family and friends.

38=completely irrational priorities and no realization how to mitigate via picking yourself up when your down, by say, getting another job, working for less, money, not having a personality completely dependent on what you do for a living (in which no one really likes you anyway).............

http://www.psychoanalysis.org/tandr-private.html

wow that was awful PE. i mean i know i've said some stupid things but that was over the line. coming from me that should mean something.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

So Biglaw partners are now responsible for as many deaths as Bernie Madoff. I wonder how they feel about that.

Also, while firms do indeed have employee assistance programs, they are generally not available to laid-off associates. Perhaps that should be re-thought, Biglaw.

8 - you're an idiot.

36 -- anonymous or not, these comments are read by people. including her family and friends, i'm sure. and i bet they do indeed appreciate the condolences of this community.

Awwww.50

PE: go back to autoadmit where you came from, your running gag has worn itself out.

http://www.med.nyu.edu/psa/treatment/

Please delete Partner Emeritus's post.

38: i truly feel sorry for you. from what i can tell, the things most important to you are vault ranking ("STB's caliber) & earning 250k/year..

believe it or not, there are other things worth living for. you can find joy in other things, your career can recover. things seem bleak, but you might want to take this opportunity to find some other direction in life. trust me, you'll be much happier if you aren't losing sleep over partner PPP.

Wow, seriously, 4 for the win. PE -- you suck. Michelle Obama person, you suck...even for pointing out that PE sucks more.

44: no one ever said suicide is rational, it certainly isn't. But if your only response is "suck it up," you are a heartless asshole.

56: i don't think telling deferred 3Ls with 75k (while the majority of students are unemployed) in their pocket bitching and moaning about start dates to suck it up makes you an asshole. i think it makes THEM assholes. note, this has nothing to do with the original post.

FUCK YOU PE.

44's response was look at the big picture, not suck it up, learn to read.

I wonder if that was the reaction the tool who posts as PE was looking for...care to comment, tool who posts as PE?

I truely wish to pass along my condolances to the family of this asociate. She should'nt have shot herself. Death is what happens when you shot yourself.

there are plenty of resources to help debt repayment such as LRAP. Keep your heads up. Don't let debt define your whole being. You're a lawyer to contribute, you still can. My heart goes out to you all. I'm in the same boat as many of you, $200K in the whole before I begin my career. The challenge just makes the reward that much sweeter.

there are plenty of resources to help debt repayment such as LRAP. Keep your heads up. Don't let debt define your whole being. You're a lawyer to contribute, you still can. My heart goes out to you all. I'm in the same boat as many of you, $200K in the whole before I begin my career. The challenge just makes the reward that much sweeter.

Once you get away from Biglaw you realize how unbelievably irrelevant it is. The asshole partners, the 80 hour weeks. Its all pointless paper pushing to make someone else money so that they can feel important. If you weren't there wasting your youth some other poor sap would be. The problem is that law school is so damn expensive now that if forces everyone into Biglaw, whether they want to do it or not. And now that jobs are evaporating while tuition remains unchanged the system is applying unbelievalbe stress upon everyone affected by the downturn. This generation of lawyers is going to be incredibly jaded. We have seen Biglaw for what it is - a ponzi scheme where partners are the winners and associates are the losers. Firms can never sell "caring" and "nice" to us again. Its all PR for their own benefit.

there are plenty of resources to help debt repayment such as LRAP. Keep your heads up. Don't let debt define your whole being. You're a lawyer to contribute, you still can. My heart goes out to you all. I'm in the same boat as many of you, $200K in the whole before I begin my career. The challenge just makes the reward that much sweeter.

While I am by no means a hippie (actually a staunch conservative), I would say this. People, keep things in perspective. Clearly ours is a profession obsessed with achievement and "prestige" but at the end of the day, and at the end of your life, where you worked and how much you made will not matter. Find comfort in your family, friends, faith, whatever. Even if you have to declare bankruptcy and "never work in law again" (both highly unlikely for someone who got a job at ST in the first place), so what? You won't be able to buy overprices material possessions? Study after study proves that money does not equate to happiness. Surround yourself with things that make you truly happy, and those things have nothing to do with money or careers.

As for me, if this whole career thing doesn't work out, I'm moving to Florida, getting a 9-5 and enjoying the weather and my family.

Comment removed by moderator.

66 - nobody wants to marry a poor loser with no job, get it? My friends will barely look at me since I was deferred -- they know I will never earn a penny in BIGLAW.

Life. Fucking. Sucks.

Comment removed by moderator.

38: heed 66's words. the sooner the better for your own happiness and mental health.

but 66, you forgot that bankruptcy does not affect student loans.

68 - if you pick someone who first and foremost cares whether you make 160k a year, then you deserve what you get

-66

66, If you don't make bank, other richer dudes are going to start enjoying your family as well......

70 - no, i didn't forget. and so what? they can keep calling, and eventually they'll get tired, or you'll work something out. yes, your credit will be screwed, and yes, you wont buy a mcmansion with a lexis. what i was saying that in the grand scheme, who cares?

-66

Hey, to all of you out there having tough times, I want to share a few thoughts:
- Going to a counselor helps. Just having someone whose job it is to listen to you on a regular basis can be really, really therapeutic. They may not have the answers, but just getting the words out to a person who won't judge you can really help you unburden yourself.
- If you are fantasizing about suicide, add this to your ideation. Your crying mother, father, sibling, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend or friends. Your poor dog or cat. You mean an awful lot to someone. Someone who should not be burdened for the rest of their lives with your suicide. If you can't see a reason right now to live for YOU, then at least hang in there to live for THEM, and then get yourself some help. Your mother doesn't deserve to wring her hands and cry for the rest of her life wondering what she could have done differently.
- The sun will come up tomorrow. Your life may be different tomorrow, and you may be sad, angry, depressed, poor, out of work, etc., but the sun will come up and you will wake up, too. Think about the millions of people in far worse situations who get up each morning and put one foot in front of another. Ditch diggers go to work every day. Things may hurt now, but they wont hurt this bad forever. You do have other options, and you will be happy and have a purpose again.
- Talk to other people, too. Let people let you see that life is worth living, because it is far more interesting than it is awful. Take a walk. Talk to strangers. Call your friends. Drink a milkshake. As cheesy as it is, some of the best stuff in the world is cheap or free.

A job loss can be really, really tough, but your job does not define you and your income is not your self worth. It may not seem like it, but there are hundreds of other ways for you to get through this life.

73, Can I buy a westlaw? Do they still make those?

How on Earth did only one comment get removed by moderator?

It is hard to read 74's post other than in Dr. Phil's voice.

20: I totally agree. That was the first thing that jumped out of me when I read that. Who would seriously think of that in a suicide context? Weird.

68 -- my friends, family and partner have been a tremendous source of support and encouragement. if anything, my lay off strengthened every important relationship in my life. your life is not your job. its the people you share it with.

66 -- thank you. i'm certain many members of this community share in your perspective.

75, if you don't get the lexis reference, shut up

66, don't be such a jerk.

People who don't have that kind of support network they can turn to are a lot more likely to be depressed in the first place. An attorney acquaintance of mine in precisely in that position (older, no family, just lost his house) tried to kill himself last month and has been in the hospital ever since.

So, by all means, rub their faces in it, if that's what it takes to make you feel smug and happy about yourself.

80, I hate you.

73: well while i agree with your general sentiment, i think that's going too far. we all need to buy cars and houses so we can live and get places. maybe we don't need 160k, but we all can't just move to the woods for the rest of our lives.

"66 - nobody wants to marry a poor loser with no job, get it? My friends will barely look at me since I was deferred -- they know I will never earn a penny in BIGLAW.

Life. Fucking. Sucks. "

this is the saddest thing i've ever heard. most people don't make 160k, they find wives. most people don't have "biglaw" jobs, they make friends. i hope you were flame, because that last sentence makes you sound like the biggest douche in the world.

There are a thousands upon thousands of individuals who are suffering do to onerous student loans. Many of these people are highly educated and have been leaders in some fine organizations, often using their skills to organize protests, petitions, etc. Why is it that nobody has organized a loan forgiveness petition, a loan forgiveness million man march, etc? If we can provide aid for homeowners who bought a house they couldn't afford, why not bail out students who tried to better themselves? Even those that graduate from TTTs should not be faulted for it is the institution that is fraud not the student. Surely the students are not as morally blameworthy as the ABA which allows these fraudulent institutions to issue degrees that are not even worth the paper they are written on. If not forgiveness at least bankruptcy such be afforded to these students. How can it be that somebody can go out and spend frivolously, running up thousands in credit card debt, then discharge that debt, while someone who runs up that doubt through student loans cannot?

New York (and really, all the cities with BigLaw) has very many very awesome shrinks (and very many shitty ones; if you don't like the one you're seeing, find another one). Look to the local crisis line if you're on the ropes. Look to the local psychoanalytic institute (or other source, if you prefer a different flavor--I'm a big supporter of psychodynamic therapy, and I've seen it work wonders for many, many people, but ymmv) if you're unhappy with your life. Don't wait until the darkness closes in--if you are unhappy, get help. It is available, and it works.

10 and others even thinking about suicide, please get some help. Life and your careers is a long long ride and not determined in one or two years of a bad economy. I realize that people of all walks of life can have mental problems and depression is a disease that is very serious, but to consider suicide if you happen to lose a job opportunity and having law school debt is a tragedy and you need help. You are too well educated and have too strong of a work ethic (at least to get you to this point in higher education) to be forced to live in poverty for the rest of your life, just because there is chance your first big job may fall through and you may not have a fancy biglaw business card to show off to friends. You will figure out how to be successful for the long-term through hard work and innovation, not because you are simply entitled to success because of an impressive college and law school pedigree. You are obvioulsy blessed with more intelligence and resources than most people in the world and hopefully can stop feeling too sorry for yourself after about a day or two, if you happen to lose your first job. If not, then get medical help please.

Sadly, I think there should be some sort of data point correlating layoffs with suicides for each firm's NALP entry. This sort of thing should stick with a firm for at least a few years.

84 here- sorry for the numerous typos. it has been a long day.

Ironic that this person committed suicide because she got laid off, because I may commit suicide if I don't get laid off from my BigLaw misery.

Isn't this profession great? People are suicidal because they can't get/lost a job that others are suicidal about being stuck in.

PE, you have officially jumped the shark. Your posting is pathetic. My condolences to both families and to Simpson Thacher

74 said it best. I'll just add, perspective, perspective, perspective. I don't know how many of ya'll's grandparents came over from somewhere else off the boat. Mine did. They lived in poverty for a few years--like 30--in order to make a better life down the road. If I were graduating this year with $200k in debt and no job, I would suck it up--and that's not heartless, or cruel or anything of the sort. It's taking responsibility for my life. And my heartfelt condolences to the woman who committed suicide; stories like that, from within this calling, should affect us somewhat profoundly, because we (most of us) know what they have had to experience in order to get to where they've gotten. We lawyers share a bond of sympathetic understanding with each other that transcends our most intimate relationships. So pour one out for a fellow homie who couldn't make it. And then suck it up and make. your. life. your. own.

Well, you don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit.

90, you are going to take some shit for wishing condolences to STB....

An unrelated thought, this ground is fertile for the section 90 trolls.

i like 91.

I said this before, and I say it again. Many, many, many of us are in the same boat. Regardless of the school, the firm, the gpa- there are a ton of deferred 3Ls, 2LS that didn't get offers, 2LS that will get no-offered at the end of the summer, and associates that are getting laid off.

Two things to consider: 1) for those 2Ls with jobs for the summer, start now lining up potential plans for post graduation. Whether that be finding some government internship in the fall, applying to federal and state supreme court clerkships, etc., it's important to start working on a backup plan immediately. Best case scenario, you are deferred a year, worst case no offer- but regardless, planning now is the best strategy. It seems that lots of 2LS are not being proactive- and have the "it won't happen to me mentality." 2) For those laid off and/or no-offered, put things in perspective. Many of us are relatively young and have much time to hack out a successful legal career. The key- swallow your pride and start hustling. The paradigm spoon fed to us by our respective lawschools- that hard work = prestigious job/160K no longer holds true. Section 90 claim? Perhaps ..

Last comment- Skadden- one of the top firms- was started by jewish lawyers that despite going to top schools, could not get jobs with the top (anti-Semitic) "white-shoe" firms. Rather than give up, they stayed in the game, taking on much of the work that the established firms shunned (corporate takeovers), and in the 1980s were perfectly positioned with the skills and knowledge to grow immensely. LESSON -- don't give up now, it's too early in the game.

I love how every well-meaning blogger counsels depressed lawyers, already in debt and out of a job, to "seek professional help" which no doubt means paying expensive therapists (of doubtful competence) that are not covered by insurance, who can convince the laid off associates that everything is OK and to number themselves with all sorts of anti-depressants. These therapists can collect their fat fees and walk away as long as the associates don't commit suicide on their watch, in which case the associate would take down said therapists with them.

I KNOW THIS MIGHT TAKE A LONG TIME, BUT...

Can we start a list of people who have not killed themselves?

1. My cousin Blake
2. My aunt Mary
3. Myself (obviously)
4.....
5.......

[Please copy, paste, and add names]

As Tyler Durden said, you are not your job and possessions.

(Though sadly I think a lot of you may be).

This reminds me of Village of Euclid v. Ambler Realty Co., a truly TTTragic situation.

I don't necessarily think that it's the loss of the job itself that is driving people to actions like these, but rather loss of future career prospects. I can't tell you the number of people who have told me that if I don't get a legal job before I'm officially terminated and can claim that I am still employed, that I will never work in the legal field again. The presumption that someone was asked to leave because they were a bad attorney is very strong (you see it every day on this board with people claiming that people let go must have "sucked"). I haven't had the chance to test that theory myself yet - although in 3 more months, I will - but it's obviously a pretty widely-held belief in this profession. So when you combine the method of terminations from law firms (usually being told that you are worthless) and everyone telling you how your career is over, I can definitely see why it's hard to ever see past that and know that you will get over this.

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101 FTW

We should all understand that this profession is not the reason for our existence. In fact, it is at times unbearable for all of us. I practice "little law" as a sole practioner. We are also hurting financially. Some are losing their homes. We all need to understand that the current situation should pass.
I am assuming that those who are hired by big lawfirms are intelligent, hardworking and talented. Maybe some who lose their jobs at big firms should consider "little law" such as criminal defense where you can make a difference in people's lives and gain satisfaction from doing so. You may even make good money doing so.

We should all understand that this profession is not the reason for our existence. In fact, it is at times unbearable for all of us. I practice "little law" as a sole practioner. We are also hurting financially. Some are losing their homes. We all need to understand that the current situation should pass.
I am assuming that those who are hired by big lawfirms are intelligent, hardworking and talented. Maybe some who lose their jobs at big firms should consider "little law" such as criminal defense where you can make a difference in people's lives and gain satisfaction from doing so. You may even make good money doing so.

I KNOW THIS MIGHT TAKE A LONG TIME, BUT...

Can we start a list of people who have not killed themselves?

1. My cousin Blake
2. My aunt Mary
3. Myself (obviously)
4 jeff bradley (a friend)
5 my friend priya
6.....

[Please copy, paste, and add names]

I KNOW THIS MIGHT TAKE A LONG TIME, BUT...

Can we start a list of people who have not killed themselves?

1. My cousin Blake
2. My aunt Mary
3. Myself (obviously)
4. Kurt Cobain
5.......Ooops, the list ends there.

So I was sitting in my BigLaw office today, and I realized, ever since I started working, every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life.

105, I have some sad news about Blake....

I'm sorry to say, but PE is right, on so many levels.

95: Yes, the Skadden partners started their own firm. And all but one of them died young of heart attacks.

I am a first year associate who was laid off two months ago. I want to provide this article for any lawyer or any professional, for that matter, who is going through this time unemployed (or even employed, but unhappy).

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/16/bregman.economy/index.html

I also want to remind everyone out there that life is more about law firms, a certain salary, and a certain career or legal education. Yes, I was severely depressed after I was laid off and will admit I had dark thoughts. But I recommend to ANYONE having even one thought of suicide to (1) pick up the phone and call a relative/spouse/lover/friend and remember what REALLY makes you happy in your life and (2) really ask if you are happy in the job they have b/c of law school. There are SO many opportunities in this world and going to law school and getting that degree only helps you in any other field you may consider. You might have to start all over for a few years and really bust your ass, but you know what, that's the part of life that is going to make you grow and figure out what it is you really want to do and can do. In the end, the work will be worth it and you'll be a much stronger person and better friend/lover/child/parent having gone through this experience. Is this profession that lock steps you into a career track really the best thing out there? I think not. There are much more creative, fulfilling, exciting and important jobs out there.

Honestly, the most successful and fulfilled people I know are not at big law firms. They are heads of small businesses, they are the directors of non profits, and they are creative strategists finding creative ways to raise capital for start ups here and abroad in third world companies. These people are part of the real economy, community, and fabric of this country and around the world.

To all the lawyers out there, it's time for some perspective. I think it will do all of us some good.

Hey, 107. That's my line.

It's nice to see ATL show some sympathy, but really it is a bit hypocritical. ATL has sensationalized, and profited, off of the major downsizing that has occurred in the legal job market. Further, the platform of ATL is that of Ivy League educated editors who belittle and demean everything and anyone they perceive to be below them, and on a daily basis remind all those who visit this website that if they are not up to some artificial standard of excellence, they should basically kill themselves. Well, people are now killing themselves, and while it would be a stretch to say ATL ever directly led to someone committing suicide, I believe it is fair to say that ATL certainly has not helped the situaiton many of their viewers find themselves in. ATL, you cannot be our Christ and our Pontius Pilate. You must pick one side, or you risk losing the (little to begin with) credibility that you have.

My sympathy to the family but not to a lawyer over a job loss.

113- I agree with the ridiculous snobbery of the editors (esp ridiculous in the case of the EIC who on a daily basis provides evidence that a certain label does not equate excellence), but, when the news is bad, bad news gets reported. Saying ATL profits off of bad news is like saying the NYTimes profits when bad things happen.

I am so sorry this happened. What office was this in? SV?

Why remove comments?

This is an Internet blog that thrives on snarkiness and anonymity. Should we expect civility in face of tragedy? If you said "yes," I admire your optimism but question your grasp of the here and now.

If you do not want to be offended, don't read the comments. Don't read the blog. Turn off your TV, unplug your cable modem and bar the door, Katy.

Outside of useless reposts and obvious spam, let the comments alone.

I didn't think it was a big deal when it was just Kilpatrick & Stockton. But now the V5? Nobody's safe.

A Simpson Thacher associate did not pass away. A former Simpson Thacher did. She was no longer an associate when she died, right?

Was this associate doing sophisticated cross-border transactional work or complex bet-the-company litigation?

Comment 118 is offensive. Delete it.

100: Bingo. Spot on. Although usually a simple lay off can be overcome, in this market with 1000's of BIGLAW capable attorneys out there looking for jobs, it's tough.

116: I am wondering what office too, especially if it is Silicon Valley.

i am truely sorry for stb's lots

I have to be honest with all of you. I think our generation and all the BigLaw gunners have no f*cking clue what life is about. No perspective, no ability to think rationally. f*cking crybaby entitlement mentality.

Like another poster said, how many of you have grandparents who came over here on a friggen boat and suffered through the great depression? if your grandparents are thank heavens still alive, then by all means go talk to them. and get some f*cking perspective. our grandparents and many of our parents and their grandparents worked in factories and unskilled jobs just to put food on the table and raise their families. they knew that healthy family and good friends and hard work meant something. they didn't cry and lament that they couldn't make 200k a year and afford a "lifestyle." their "lifestyle" was making ends meet and having integrity and family and friends. community. It's astonishing to me how the entire system of BigLaw has this insane theory of how the world should work. Nobody forced you to go to law school, and nobody made the decision for you. We all need to start taking responsibility for our own actions and decisions. and by God, please please stop whining and crying about not being able to make 145k as a first year lawyer. cry me a f*cking river. there are so many people who didn't even have degrees or educations that made something of themselves. stop the giant pity party and stand tall. Go hit the pavement and use your talent and creativity to do something useful. My condolances to the family of Levy and this young associate. But let's stop the attitude and culture that encourages this crap, the culture that makes people feel like they can't go home if they've been laid off. the family should be the FIRST and ONLY refuge from the storm. It should be the rock in your life that will be by your side no matter what. through layoffs, through financial times, through cancer, through death. All you bigLaw people need to take a step back and look at what matters. Family, Friends, and your health and integrity. That's it. That's what you have when you die, and aint no amount of "prestige" that will make you feel good on your deathbed. carpe diem.

I want to know if it was SV too because I have friends in that office and one of the female associate's name has been off the website for a few weeks now, but the California Bar listing for the associate has no address change.

Please check out this video if you're struggling:

http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true&mediaKey=1f3aeac7-e93a-4a2e-b977-6200e3e1fcb9

I want to know if it was SV too because I have friends in that office and one of the female associate's name has been off the website for a few weeks now, but the California Bar listing for the associate has no address change.

I have been unemployed for nearly five months since Thacher Proffitt dissolved. I have been living on unemployment checks, defaulted on my unsecured loans and hardly sleep thinking of what I'm going to do once my savings runs out - $405 a week is hardly enough to live on when one has five dependents! What I find worse to bear is that the partners in my group did not offer to assist me in my job search and did not respond to an email requesting such assistance. Although losing my job has shaken my confidence in myself to a certain extent, it's my confidence in the partners I trusted that has been completely shattered by the lack of humanity on their part. . . I'm sure the readers here will tell me that I should have already known that. . .every man for himself!

Use of "f*ck" is offensive. Delete 124.

Funny thing about 111's post. First sentence after the link:

"I also want to remind everyone out there that life is more [than?] about law firms, a certain salary, and a certain career or legal education."

A simple typo or a freudian slip?

128-structured or re?

131 - Structured

Partner Emeritus - You douche bag..and how dare you!!?? Now would my little brother still be alive today if Bush was never elected President? He was killed at the age of 22 two years ago in Iraq..Who should be blamed for his death?? Bush? or dip shits like you who sit with thumbs up their asses giving meaningless advice..

**************** Obligatory promissory estoppel joke here *******************

http://www.kilpatrickstockton.com/news/downloads/MLevyInMemoriam.pdf

Memorial contributions may be made to:
Yale Law School Fund, P.O. Box 208341, New Haven, CT 06520-8341.

Both of these people are victims of horrible law firm manament. May they rest in piece. I know the firms will not learn anything from this.

Instead of suicide, I advocate homocide and revenge.

First, alcohol is a depressant, so using it when you are already down, will only make the black hole seem worse.

Talk to someone. If you feel like you're in a well filled with molasses and can barely get your head up out of it to get a tiny breath, you're not the only one who has ever felt that way. Find a friend to talk to and get some professional help. There's no shame in needing help.

There is ALWAYS a way out. There's ALWAYS a solution- you just may not be able to think of it by yourself.

Suicide is a permanent solution to a TEMPORARY problem.

The one thing you can count on is that things will change. Oh, maybe not exactly the way that you think they SHOULD change, but nothing is worth leaving the people who love you with the permanent grief that they will feel if you take your own life.

I know. My husband killed himself when my kids were 9, 11, and 13. I have missed him every day for the past fifteen years.

More than anything else, know that there are people who can help you figure out what to do- finances, debt, feeling better about yourself. I know it's hard to admit powerlessness, but sometimes, just admitting you need help can be really freeing.

Find a friend to go out and run with you, or punch a bag, or lift weights or something physical- it's better than booze. Promise.

One more thought, don't let the ba$+@rds get you down. Being laid off today is not a judgement on your skills, it's where we all are- young and old.

128 - I have had a similar experience. What I realized (and always really knew to a certain extent) was that those partners who were great guys when I worked for them were really gutless pieces of shit who have been scared for their own jobs their entire biglaw careers and still are. They lucked out and held on long enough to make partner and now they just keep their mouths shut and their heads down. They are really just pathetic soulless people. So lame.

Personally, the only dangerous thought I have these days is to go back to the office one day and tear their fucking faces off - is this wrong? Do I need professional help for that one?

Oh, and I was RE

- 138

129. Go f*ck yourself! if you can't stand the word FUCK, then don't come on a meat eating law blog. This is not oprah's shrink blog.

ATL,

Please seriously consider not allowing comments at all on suicide stories.

Regards,

138 - I don't think so. Most of them are heartless, PPP obsessed cocksuckers.

As a suicidal laid-off Latham first year, seeking help is NOT THE ANSWER. A lack of help is not the problem.

The problem is that my career IS FUCKED, and that I see no way to fix it.

These partners need to find another way to deal with this shit than throwing good associates out into the great depression. A bunch of firms have been offering associates a year off, and funny how no one has killed self at those firms.

You want the suicides to stop, then start listening to me. Oh, and there WILL be more. This is just the beginning. Wait until the current laid-off folks have been unemployed for 6 months to a year and are out of severance money.

-suicidal laid-off Latham first year

I'm kind of surprised at all of the comments that equate this young woman's job loss directly with her suicide. Yes, it's obviously likely that it was a contributing factor, but doesn't anyone think that there perhaps was a little bit more going on? Is it irrational to think that this woman could likely have committed suicide even if she hadn't been laid off?

This job is simply not worth sweating over. If I were laid off, I'd rearrange my spending and go pump gas for a living. Sometimes, I honestly think that wouldn't be so bad compared to the dregs of BigLaw.

People stuck in BigLaw, unhappy with their jobs, are just giant p*ssies with no appetite for risk - I am one of them. Sometimes I think being laid off would be the type of jolt I need to take on some risk, roll up my sleeves, sweat a little bit, and actually make something of myself in this world, rather than just accept the inglorious role of being a cog in a big machine that cares nothing about me (and the feeling is quite mutual).

Anyone who doesn't realize by this point that they are just a face in the crowd when it comes to working for a BigLaw firm has had their head in the sand for far too long. People who went to law school without some kind of passion for the law/justice/something legal and a desire to be an actual attorney (rather than a doc reviewing monkey or corporate law paper pusher earning a guaranteed 160K), are risk averse p*ssies who couldn't come up with anything better to do, and were enticed by the security blanket of a promised BigLaw salary (and again, I am one and the same with these folks). Unfortunately, the blankie has been taken away - it almost seems like a just punishment for having no guts.

Sorry excuses for human beings who don't have the coping skills needed to deal with life. Elitist, entitled, arrogant, self-absorbed cowards--you'll all take the easy way out, and good riddance.

This is why we hate you.

141 for the win.

Why are people laying blame at the feet of the law firms? If anything, it belongs with the law schools.

Law firms are businesses that must downsize in hard times in order to turn a profit. This is not to say that law firms should not support their people in hard times, and we should long remember those that fail to do so for the sake of PPP. However, law schools are supposed to be non-profit institutions. Why is it that they charge outrageous tuition and funnel the extra $$ to other schools within their parent schools? They do this when most of them KNOW that there are no jobs waiting for their students at graduation.

What does it cost to run a law school? Professor salaries, library books, and classrooms. It makes NO SENSE for law schools to charge the same as (e.g.) medical schools when they can operate at a fraction of the cost. Law schools could go a long way toward reducing the misery that some people find in this profession.

Probably about 3/4 of schools could help the profession tremendously by simply ceasing to exist. The remaining schools ought to cut tuition in half and/or operate on a model more like that of a medical school - 2 years in the classroom and 2 years in residency where the students could earn a small salary and actually learn to practice law so that they will not be at the mercy of BigLaw.

Thank you 86.

Thank you 111.

Ditto 144.

PE: Just think twice before posting your next comment. Don't assume that comments posted over the Internet are "anonymous". We can track you and we will. We will disclose your identity sooner or later. Make no mistake about it. Let's see if you're still that loquacious...

"Images by Tyrone Green"

Dark and lonely on a summer's night.
Cill the partners. Cill the partners.
Watchdog barking. Do he bite?
Cill the partners. Cill the partners.
Slip in his window. Break his neck.
Then his house I start to wreck.
Got no reason. What the heck?
Cill the partners. Cill the partners.
C-I-L-L the partners!

Perhaps if firms, New York City and State Bar Associations, the NY Court and local government offer just a little more to laid off associates (and unemployed graduating law students) than lip service counseling assistance -- like, for example, waivers (or deferrals) of biannual bar dues, costly CLE requirements and trainings in areas where unemployed attorneys could actually represent ordinary (as opposed to corporate) clients -- we (laid off/ unemployed professionals) could help ourselves! Over the past five years, BigLaw associates, have contributed an average of $70-90K in taxes to federal, state and local governments (while slaving at their firms) -- would temporarily waiving onerous requirements to help young lawyers get back on our feet be too much to ask of our profession? The mandatory requirements on lawyers (unlike secretaries, paralegals, bankers, etc.) are just too prohibitive under these economic circumstances, especially in light of the astronomical student loans many of us have. Above the Law and other professional publications and blogs could really help by encouraging and advocating for this humble assistance -- as opposed to seeking psychiatric help (which is a fraud and epitomizes exactly what is wrong with the American society).

Finally, I bet lawyers would find it a lot easier to cope with the current predicament if we could move around freely (e.g., moving from New York City to another, less expensive city) and being able to practice our profession without payable outrageous fees and studying for bar exam which is administered twice a year.

ATL (or another blog) -- You could build on this theme? This could be more helpful than your "confessions from the breadline" shtick!

This is very depressing, and even more so for the waste of an opportunity. 128, 138, and everyone else - if you decide to commit suicide, at least do the rest of us (and in fact the rest of the world) a favor and take some thieving, gutless partners out with you on the way.

Make these evil bastards at least a little bit afraid to lay off young associates to protect their multimillion dollar incomes after convincing law students that theirs was the secure firm that didn't overhire, and that their new jobs would be safe! MAKE THOSE MOTHER FUCKERS PAY FOR THEIR FRAUD!

As the honorable Tyrone Green once said, Kill The Partners.

Perhaps if firms, New York City and State Bar Associations, the NY Court and local government offer just a little more to laid off associates (and unemployed graduating law students) than lip service counseling assistance -- like, for example, waivers (or deferrals) of biannual bar dues, costly CLE requirements and trainings in areas where unemployed attorneys could actually represent ordinary (as opposed to corporate) clients -- we (laid off/ unemployed professionals) could help ourselves! Over the past five years, BigLaw associates, have contributed an average of $70-90K in taxes to federal, state and local governments (while slaving at their firms) -- would temporarily waiving onerous requirements to help young lawyers get back on our feet be too much to ask of our profession? The mandatory requirements on lawyers (unlike secretaries, paralegals, bankers, etc.) are just too prohibitive under these economic circumstances, especially in light of the astronomical student loans many of us have. Above the Law and other professional publications and blogs could really help by encouraging and advocating for this humble assistance -- as opposed to seeking psychiatric help (which is a fraud and epitomizes exactly what is wrong with the American society).

Finally, I bet lawyers would find it a lot easier to cope with the current predicament if we could move around freely (e.g., moving from New York City to another, less expensive city) and being able to practice our profession without payable outrageous fees and studying for bar exam which is administered twice a year.

ATL (or another blog) -- You could build on this theme? This could be more helpful than your "confessions from the breadline" shtick!

For those laid off. Join the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines. You can be an officer in the JAG Corp, or an officer in just about any other area. It's not all that bad, and there are jobs available right now. The pay and benefits are great, and retirement is great if you care to stay around for a long time. When you get out, MidLaw is ready to receive you.

I wish people would STFU about "suffocating debt." My wife and I finished with about $220k in debt, combined -- most of it hers. She had about $170k. That's at the top of the high end. Most people have nothing near that. But it's still pennies compared to a $1M mortgage (which many people with WAY less income than us happily carry -- not that I think that's a brilliant decision). Law school debt is not "suffocating." Or even that big a deal, in the scheme of things.

87 -- great point, definitely would be a telling statistic!

I'm asking all hackers, computer wonder boys and girls to reveal the identity of the author of Post No. 8, aka Partner Emeritus. Let the game begins...

144---one of the best posts I've read on here. And I never post (I was more of a greedy associates type).

155:

$220k would be top of high end for one person, not for two. And at least with a mortgage you have the equity in the house. I agree having a lot of debt is not the end of the world, and certainly no reason to kill yourself. But it's a big burden that doesn't go away for a long time, and even worse if your career prospects are seriously impaired as they have been for anyone who's been laid off.

152 -- I think advocating vicious violence on BigLaw partners is over the top (although I see your point and share your sentiment). But asking BigFirms to contribute to some sort of a "fund" that would enable laid off, unemployed lawyers to avoid paying for CLE credits (which could be in excess of $1,000), bar registration fees, etc. definitely sounds reasonable to me.

152 -- I think advocating vicious violence on BigLaw partners is over the top (although I see your point and share your sentiment). But asking BigFirms to contribute to some sort of a "fund" that would enable laid off, unemployed lawyers to avoid paying for CLE credits (which could be in excess of $1,000), bar registration fees, etc. definitely sounds reasonable to me.

Delete all the comments and turn off the feature for this story. Replace them with information regarding suicide hotlines and counseling services.

Aren't private loan interest rates only around 5%? And aren't the govt loans something absurdly low like 2-3% Hardly suffocating.

158,

Thanks. I feel at least a little bit emboldened by the fact that for a few years now, I've done the least amount possible to keep my job. I'm itching to get out into the real world...and will soon, just need to stop being so damn complacent and comfortable. I'm on myself now big-time to make a positive mark in this world - you only get one shot as far as I know.

144

Is it one of the people here? cuz if so, they should really update their web page

http://www.stblaw.com/sitecontent.cfm?contentID=24&itemID=239

163, they haven't been at those rates for a few years.

Once again, I am in this mind set, and talking to some TTT therapist who knows nothing about the legal market will not help.

You know what will help? Student loan forgiveness, and like some other people mentioned, eliminating the retarded fees that lawyers have to pay to move to markets that aren't as miserable as NY.

152: did you just advocate murdering partners?

163, try 8.5% or 12%

Is it one of the people here? cuz if so, they should really update their web page

http://www.stblaw.com/sitecontent.cfm?contentID=24&itemID=239

Student loan "forgiveness" for losing your job? What?

Maybe the associate called the Hatesville Suicide Hotline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwWUTO3M-GY

GOOD CALL! More should do so!

ATL: please disclose the identity of the author of post 152 to the authorities. This is a SERIOUS threat. Clearly a criminal offense.

If I were in law school right now, I'd go to the Dean of Students and request a full refund of all tuition, for all years attended, in exchange for waiving my right to those credits. You'd have lost 1-3 years of other opportunities, but you'd be coming into the workforce at the right time without being burdened with a law degree and its accompanying debt.

170 - yep, i think that's her. i think i'm gonna cry (seriously) after looking at her pic. she was cute.

Why did Simpson have to kill this woman just so the partners could keep PPP above 2 million?

Simpson partners are heartless fucks.

someone email simpson thacher and tell them to remove that page!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

174, and all others - no one ever guaranteed you a job along with your law degree, especially not at a "BigLaw" firm.

Yes, doors are opened by having a GED, a high school diploma, a college degree, a JD, an MBA, a medical degree, etc. But "doors opened" doesn't mean a right to a job.

I'm sorry a lot of people made decisions they regret now, e.g. taking on 200+K of debt to get a degree they now feel is worthless or won't entitle them to the job they "deserved." I really do feel sorry for them, it's not a good position to be in.

That said, if anyone is feeling suicidal over their current station in life, please reconsider and please seek out someone to talk to/with. There are so many things worth living for in life, and debt isn't the end of the world - just ask the many thousands who have filed for personal bankruptcy and lived to tell the tale.

she looks the least bitchiest of all those biglaw bitches

you people do not know the first thing about how this defined herself or why she decided to commit suicide.

it takes patience and time, a lot of time spent feeling miserable when you don't think you can take it anymore, but you won't feel like this forever.

Her name was Robert Paulson

178, stop drinking the koolaid that talking does anything. talk is cheap. talk does not pay off student loans. the next person who says "talk to someone" should be shot.

155: Our student loan office suggests we take out 68,500/year to cover all of our costs, including 44.5k in tuition alone People graduate with >190k debt on the regular. Also, who the fuck would take out a 1M mortgage on less than 160k per year? Who would let them? Finally, you can walk away from such a mortgage if it turns out to be too much - student loan debt is not dischargeable.

sallie mae and the student loan companies are dirty bitches who care not about your need to cope with your job loss. they wants their money and will stop at nothing to get it.

If you are considering suicide, please don't. Don't punish your friends and family.

Instead, punish the people who deserve it. Take a can of gas to your office and light that bad boy up!

Imagine the ATL comments - you'd be a hero.

- anxiously awaiting the flames.

151: Amen, brother. the legal system needs a complete overhaul. We should be able to move from state to state without having to study and pass a bar exam that is ridiculously expensive for which to study and which is only administered 2 times per year.

Law school should also cut out all the filler (i'm looking at you, 3rd year) and have the purpose of actually preparing students to practice and (maybe i'm crazy here) teach some goddamned real laws. Why do we have to pay barbri 6k to actually learn something useful?

182 - advocating violence, are we? quit drinking the koolaid that violence solves anything in this situation.

thx, 178,

185, i love you!

178 - student loans =/= dischargeable in bankruptcy. You could declare bankruptcy, and the loan companies would be waiting on the other side. What don't people fucking understand about this?

144 is right. It's ridiculous to assume this was all about losing a job or student loans. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't. Many, probably most suicides have to do with serious mental illness, not just someone feeling down about how her life is going or being "weak" as some here have insinuated. Try having a fucking clue what you're talking about before you post. Just because you CAN throw your uninformed speculative bullshit on to the Internet doesn't mean you should.

test

Do the summers show up on Monday? Should be a fun time.

189 - fine, so as far as student loan cancelation for "undue hardship" circumstances in personal bankruptcy is rare, in my original post i didn't explicitly state that those loans were canceled in bankruptcy. if i implied that i apologize.

there are other advantages to filing if you are in a particular position, though.

still, that aside, my earlier comments stand. -178

-178.

155 and 163: I have 240k in debt from law school at the fixed government (grad plus loan) rate of 8.5%... and no job prospect. I am graduating in less than a month. That IS a big deal, and is definitely suffocating. Especially coming from a law school that gives you only one free appointment with a shrink over the course of your three years and calls that mental health resources. How are we supposed to get help when we can't afford it?

Law schools should teach through Emanuel's the whole time and disregard the case method. Steven Emanuel should be the single legal authority in this country, and our Supreme Court should be Steven Emanuel.

Killing yourself over losing a Biglaw job? Has the world gone mad?! Go and volunteer at your local soup kitchen for a few hours and see people who really have something to be depressed about.

Alternatively, as another poster said, go and talk to your grandparent who was born in 1920, lived throught the depression, had 10 people living in a small apartment with one person working and then served for 3 years fighting the Japanese in the Pacific.

159: You don't have equity in the house if it's all gone. My wife and I aren't underwater on our house, but only because we put down $200,000. All of that is gone, resulting in us being worse off than the people who didn't put anything down.

When the bill collectors call me, I regretfully inform them that I have passed away and offer to email my obit to them.

Remember the vast majority of law grads have huge debt burden without any Biglaw job. Many of people work as PDs, DAs, or in small firms for $45,000 to $60,000.

I am single and pay back $2000 a month in student loans on a $68,000 salary. My secret? I don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks. I can't afford to.

165, 170 - is she one of those ppl? which one?

Apparently she was found in front of her TV with a Joel Osteen sermon still on.....

Can we agree that law schools got greedy in the 90s and 00s? They jacked up tuition at a ridiculous rate.

Law school tuition has risen 100% in the past 10 years. That is not an exaggeration, that is a fact.

To 189:

Student Loans CAN BE DISCHARGED in a Chapter 7 or 13 with the Court's permission (hardship discharge). Case law varies from State to State and some Courts are generous with their interpretation of hardship.'

IT IS NOT HOPELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

200: just look at the roster of current associates and compare which one of them is missing

Law schools are nothing more than the carnival barker to law firms snake oil

203 = racist

Further to 186, 167, 151, 160:
The only correspondence I receive from NYC Bar, NYS Bar and ABA are invoices and requests for contributions!

ATL --- You're usually pretty quick to jump on firms based on rumors, asking them to explain and comment. Have you reached out to any of the professional associations for lawyers, such as New York City Bar Association, New York State Bar Association, ABA, various New York Appellate Divisions to see what they are doing to assist members of their profession? These institutions have put in place a lot of onerous and costly requirements that take up our time and money; but what are they doing for their members now? (If the answer is offering networking events, lectures and seminars for a modest price of $700 per event, maybe the capable editors at ATL can make a case that it isn't enough)

Latham NY laid-off the majority of their first years recently. Wonder when that suicide wave starts.

I worked with a guy who committed suicide. He worked for a partner known for reducing associates to tears. A few of the associates finally snapped back at him and refused to work for him. It was career suicide b/c the other partners thought that even though their partner was an ass, associates were supposed to just deal with it. This associate, however, stuck it out. Eventually killed himself during some awful project. The party line (said in whispers around the office afterwords) was "I think he had a lot of problems outside work you know".

Bullshit. And also bullshit that a suicide means a person had some "serious mental disorder" just lurking around. Oh and look...it's not like someone says "Gee, Biglaw is all that matters and now that I'm laid off, I feel bad and will kill myself." Nope. It's more than that. Mixed in with the loss of a job are all kinds of ugly things. Mostly, betrayal. All the weekends worked, the promises made about EVERYTHING especially during busy times (we'll get you a first year to help you; we'll make it up to you for your canceling vacation). Could be a partner that tried to make the layoff sound performance-based, backtracking on something, someone you knew that and trusted is no lying, or some other betrayal. So it's not losing the "prestige" of a Biglaw job, but that you've spent years slaving away for people you thought you knew and trusted and now you realize your judgment was way off and you've been screwed. I bet there's a ton of ugly stuff mixed in and a few with some blood on their hands.

Just my suspicion.

205, I did. All the female ones are either still there, or working for google.

Yolanda Young here. I am disgusted about the lack of diversity in the recent suicides we have witness in the legal profession. Clearly, we need a suicide diversity task force to look into this. I will be filing a long winded 20 page Complaint against ST and Kilpatrick very soon. Thank you.

What is my shithole of a law school "Washington College of Law" at American University doing to cover up the fact that less than 5% of the 3Ls have jobs lined up ?

Giving a discount on an LLM !!!

Three years of second-rate education isn't enough, go for another.

As if three years of listening to that little toad Dean Grossman wasn't enough.

Advice to anyone who couldn't do better than American. Drop out now.

YWIA.

178 - STFU. We all know that we are not "guaranteed" jobs. It does not make this situation SUCK any less.

The fact that law schools LIE about their placement and loan companies charge usurious rates does add insult to injury though.

212=best comment ever on ATL.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/us/06akron.html?_r=1&hp

213, "in for a penny, in for a pound," ....or perhpas "in for $150,000, in for $210,000."

Go 185!

Burn it Down!

BURN BABY BURN!!!!

BLOOD RUNNING THROUGH THE STREETS OF MANHATTAN

in the 80s it was bankers. this time it is lawyers because those bitchass law schools get us all in so much debt.

oh, plus too many law schools and legal work to india.

see you on the other side friends!

I am always amazed when assoicates complain that the Partners that let them go were "disloyal, souless, selfish etc..."...wtf did they expect? These people care about PPP..and that's it.

When will the bad news end? Every time I think we have reached a bottom -- i.e., that sentiment in the legal community can't get any worse -- another shoe drops. I honestly believe that this will mark the end of BIglaw. The model is broken beyond repair. And more importantly, the next wave of associates are fed up before they have started.

170, is this for real?? The only girl no longer in their directory is the Palo Alto girl. I just find it really difficult to believe that a top-tier LAW FIRM would do something as incompetent as leaving her picture posted under such tragic circumstances.

211: who's working for google?

222- why? Kilpatrick left Mark Levy's bio up on their website for days.

very sad situation.

though if the true cause was debt, i have a hard time commiserating as i see my fellow law students texting on iphones, dressed in designer clothes, and partying whenever they can.

sorry, this is your fault people with 100k+ debt. nobody forced anybody to take debt, should have worked. for that matter, you should be living in the slums, and living on a shoestring budget, not living in luxury apartments on student loans.

Next week's headlines:

"Tragic News from Latham & Watkins&

211-- everyone still there, are you sure?

PE, go back to your fucking Warcraft bitch. This board was better when you were fucking studying for your fucking finals. Fucking loser.

"The struggle itself...is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
--Albert Camus

225, stfu

when we were students, no one knew biglaw would be throwing people out into the great depression

I see Evan Jowers of Kinney Recruiting is given advice at post 86.

Evan, it is people like you and Kinney that perpetuate this elitist nonsense in law which creates the conditions for people to become suicidal over a Biglaw job loss and prestige loss.

What next? Advice from Lateral Link?

If this recession leaves one legacy among litigators and their clients, it might be the death of some long-held taboos. "I used to work at a big law firm, so I sort of have the big-firm snobbery," says one Fortune 500 general counsel. "But there are good lawyers everywhere. And big law firms, expensive law firms, don't necessarily have the corner on that market."

http://www.law.com/jsp/ihc/PubArticleIHC.jsp?id=1202430470948

185: wouldn't this make you an accomplice to arson if someone reads your comments and acts based on your encouragement? i feel like a §90 troll but i think you might want to take that comment down.

*just had crim final last week*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

No doubt law schools will reduce their tuition to compensate for the poor job market and lower salaries.

Has anyone here had any interviews in the last 2 or 3 months?

Agreed. I made a bad life decision by going to law school and now the government owes me money for being an idiot. Thank God the Dems are in power!

Entitlement now! Entitlement now!

Agreed. I made a bad life decision by going to law school and now the government owes me money for being an idiot. Thank God the Dems are in power!

Entitlement now! Entitlement now!

Don't you realize what's happening? The economy is turning, slowly but surely. Recovery is around the corner. Law firms are racing to cut salaries and employees, feeling that their window of opportunity is closing fast.

235 - only one.

235 - only one. An NYU JD/Harvard AB is not worth as much as it used to.

For the first time in my life suicide has crossed my mind. I was forced to move out of my Manhattan apartment and with my mother and two sisters. I have been watching "Gossip Girl" almost every night; as a result, I am certain (a) my IQ is at least 100pts lower, (b) I know way too much about female hygience products and (c) yes, I want to end the pain. Killing myself is one option.

238 - you're on to something

204 - Yeah, have fun with that in the 7th Circuit (among others).

Must be some idiot student outlining his bankruptcy exam.

PE has jumped the shark.

238:

Even if you're right, how is this going to save lives? We have people dying out like dinosaurs, and not from swine flu, unfortunately

227: see 222's post, and take some notes, idiot.

227 - yes, all the females on that site are still at STB, except the Palo Alto one, and if you look her up on the CA bar you'll see she's at google. So none of the females in that link are the female in question.

241 - Definitely have felt the same way, but decided in the end that suicide was not the solution to the pain. I've been trying all my life to be perfect; I say screw it and start fresh. I'm going to live my childhood dream and travel the world on a shoestring budget.

243-because all students are idiots and you, through your vast experience, have progressed beyond the idiocy of a student to share your widom as an experienced attorney, whereby you choose to spend your nights posting on ATL. In the ballpark? Loser.

I was so depressed in 2006 I thought about killing myself. I'm glad I didn't!

241 - I have good news. IQ is immutable, meaning that absent traumatic brain injury, it does not change through the course of your life. The other good news therefore is that you still possess the talent and work ethic that got you hired in the first place. You might not be as rich as you had hoped, but you will be fine if you can keep your chin up.

- Laid off 2nd year

PS - For absurd late night TV, I recommend "The First 48" and "Dead Men Talking," both of which should satisfy your hankering for morbid entertainment.

Wait, Elie has been deleting the "eats a gun" posts, and people are killing self anyway? I can't believe it!

People, you want to stop the coming suicide wave, then listen to all the people on here who are telling you the things that are driving us to our deaths. If you don't care, then whatever, I'll see you on the other side.

178 - in the past there were certain schools which, assuming you passed, you were guaranteed a biglaw job from. There are people who took on significantly debt to attend one of these schools under the presumption that they would be able to pay it off. Biglaw indentured servitude was the quid pro quo for attending one of those elite schools on full tuition.

Now that the paradigm shifted, many of these students find themselves as the most vulnerable group in an unprecedentedly bad situation. At any other point in time during the modern legal era, they would be employed with bright career prospects. They would not have attended a school for full price if not everyone who wanted biglaw could get it.

So fuck off with your self-righteousness. Clearly there's nothing you can do but work hard and move on, but law students and young associates are getting absolutely screwed in this. Make no mistake about that.

246 - why are you calling me an idiot; i was responding to 211.
- 227 (and STB associate)

Getting professional help is not just good advice for dealing with your life, it's good for your career. Show some b*lls and marshal the resources at your disposal to get the help you need. I did this years ago-- overcame the notion that going to therapy showed weakness- and I am now so much better for it--- personally and professionally. You will see.

" I have good news. IQ is immutable, meaning that absent traumatic brain injury, it does not change through the course of your life. The other good news therefore is that you still possess the talent and work ethic that got you hired in the first place. "

The problem is that what got you there in the first place - a high LSAT - has nothing to do with IRL success. You biglaw washouts are simply nerds who forgot what you are. Nerds fail. You failed at highschool, you failed at college, you failed on the job.

Those of you trying to identify her from the STB recruiting website are wrong and are acting irresponsibly - she is not one of those associates. Now go back to minding your own lives.

This is not "news" that belongs on ATL and not something that should have been thrown to the wolves of the commenters here -- she was a person that happened to also be an attorney and the fact that she passed away is sad for everyone who knew her. It is not an opportunity to get on soapboxes and try to turn this into some kind of proof of your views about student debt or evil partners or the economy or lawyers or life as a lawyer. Let this woman's family mourn in privacy. You didn't know her, you don't know what happened to her or why. Leave it alone.

Nerds rule jocks drool

go to martindale.com and look at the attorneys listed for google to answer your curiosity. . .

Ditto 256. I played 4 years of nose tackle at Hofstra, went there for law school (magna, thank you very much), and now I defend 2-3 speeding tickets every week. All you Harvard and Columbia biglaw people are just nerds. Nerds!!!

NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDSS!

260 = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3njjD41f48

257 is correct. ATL, I really think that deeply somber and personal information like this does not belong on a light-hearted, and often mean-spirited, "gossip" blog. And if you must post it, you should at least have a policy of turning off comments.

Wow! We finally got PE to shut up after only one post. I hope its not just finals...

263 - stfu. This is a matter of public interest.

why does there have to be a pre-existing mental health issue?

massive debt + career death is not a good enough reason to want to off self?

263, stfu. some of this discussion could prevent future suicides.

257 & 263 = STB partners running damage control

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with this post - no one was named and people are using the comments to get out some genuine feelings about the state of the profession. What, should we just pretend that everything is life is grand and the layoffs are all fun and games? No, something is clearly wrong with the system and people are looking to incidents like this as evidence. This is a healthy discussion.

154 wrote:
"For those laid off. Join the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines. You can be an officer in the JAG Corp, or an officer in just about any other area. It's not all that bad, and there are jobs available right now. The pay and benefits are great, and retirement is great if you care to stay around for a long time. When you get out, MidLaw is ready to receive you."

Indeed, the life can be pretty good, though I can tell you applications are way, way up and it's been easy differentiating between those sincere about serving and those applying out of sheer desperation.

That said, I wouldn't trade it for any legal job right now short of an AUSA perhaps. It's been a great three years so far, and my corporate lackey experience in the 90s can't hold a candle to it.

253, I agree with your analysis of why many people went to law school, and took on massive debt in many instances to do so. I would further argue that perhaps law schools should, with respect to their future students' career prospects upon graduation, caution the following:

Past performance is not indicative of future performance.

It sucks, do not get me wrong on that. Perhaps there is a way that people can be forewarned in the future so that we can avoid tragic events from occurring needlessly.

The reason why Partner Emeritus is not posting is because I just finished fucking him. If he doesn't call me tomorrow, I will come back and reveal his identity.

Is he tight?

150 - Nice freeflowin rhyme

PE - You done crossed the line. Make nice nice and say you are sorry.

The Sheriff

"For those laid off. Join the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines. You can be an officer in the JAG Corp, or an officer in just about any other area. It's not all that bad, and there are jobs available right now."

I got dinged by both Army and USAF JAG. I'm magna from a top 20 school, 2 years in biglaw, great shape, never had a problem interviewing. As has been pointed out, they know when they are not your first choice. Also, the competition now is absolutely insane - those jobs are anything but gimmes.

Ah, PE, gone but not forgotten, ever, for his most douchetastic posting that is the worst posting ever in the history of posts.

ATL: remember when you do your "best commenter" awards at the end of the year to flame this motherfucker as he deserves.

When I asked about the SV office, it wasn't because of IY, who is at Google.

It was because of an attorney whose initials were LM, a corporate associate. She disappeared off the firm's website several weeks ago and the California Bar bio has no update.

For those of you who have been laid off and experiencing mental distress, you may be still have access to your firm's employee assistance program. Use it. That's why it's there. Further, therapy is covered by health insurance, so if you have insurance or COBRA, and your copay may be very low. There are likely other community outreach programs - or reach out to a level-headed friend with a patient ear. Students should seek assistance from the campus facilities. Unburdening yourself is never a waste of your time.

Yes, career assistance is important. But if you truly are having feelings of hopelessness and helplessness, the issues go deeper than just developing a plan of action for a career search, and you must address them in order to put yourself in the right place to tackle the road ahead. Once you are mentally in the right place, you can understand that while law schools push us toward the standard path and teach us that we all want to work for large firm sweatshops, you can do any number of other things and find success and fulfillment. It may not seem that way, but it's possible. My best friend recently quit her associate gig without another job lined up, and she found a new career completely outside of the law. She is happier than she has ever been, and she would never have imagined this even a week before she quit her law firm.

Do not make your parents pack up your apartment and keep your things in their basement. Depression is real and is treatable.

The situation sucks, and its not all about money or prestige. We didn't all expect six figs, but thought doors to a somewhat interesting, if not legitimately fulfilling career would be opened to us after 3 years of hunkering down.

Its not the end of the world and I'm not crying or blaming anyone else. Law school and Biglaw didn't plan this, as opportunistic as those institutions may be. But its also not our fault either. Don't blame yourself if you're down and out. And don't kick people when they're down, either. People need to start coming together, not judging each other.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202430354970

How is this note news?

274,

If you really want in, consider applying to the Reserves. At least in the Army, those applications are rolling instead of two boards per year. If you got picked up, that would get you six months of employment for your training. Then it's fairly easy to lateral in to the active side, or least volunteer for a mobilization for a year, in which case lateralling (is that a word?) is even easier.

168 - Of course not. (I mean, yes, but come on man, do you cite Tyrone Green in serious posts?)

It *IS*, however, mind boggling that law firms systematically treat some of our nation's best and brightest so shabbily that they are literally suicidal, and that our top law schools make a business of routing most of their graduates into institutions that will make them desperately unhappy and at which their chances of ultimate success are so small.

Violence is almost never the answer, and certainly not here, but somehow, this situation has GOT to change.

-- 152

There are many suicide prevention hotlines, including for example suicidepreventionlifeline.org (800-273-TALK).

276 - just give us the damn name already.

Before 276, who is apparently a stalker, starts spreading rumors that someone alive is dead, it's not that person either.

273 ("sheriff") -- ARE YOU SERIOUS?

1) How can you tell PE he crossed the line and then pull that kind of crap on a thread like this?

2) Don't fucking besmirch the awesomeness that is Blazing Saddles with that weak unfunny character/comment of yours. Kindly remove yourself.

Comment removed by moderator.

This is very sad. Why hasn't the McKee Nelson suicides been reported? Two at the same time period at a small firm is a very big deal.

"While on topic?" - linking a tragic suicide to Barack Obama's policies is tasteless. Why not just let it be, PE? We already know that you can't possibly be a partner, since you post here like 10 times a day.

Just keep it classy, ok? Goddamnit.

286 - wrong. but you are an asshole.

210,

It's extremely naive to go into BigLaw and not think that there is a real chance that you will be treated that way. Do you think the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's has it any easier? Work is work. It's why someone is known as the "boss," and someone else takes it in the ass. The key is to have the balls to try something else besides BigLaw and make it on your own, or figure out a way to survive and make it to the position of being the boss in BigLaw, if that's your cup of tea. Unless you were this guy's shrink, how the hell do you know what went on in his head...it just makes you feel better to blame his death on his job, because you're projecting.

I would be pretty surprised if these were the only suicides to date in connection with the thousands of BigLaw layoffs to date. Think the partners feel even a little guilty about it? I doubt they lose sleep. The people in this business are disgusting.

ATL, please delete post 286, and 286, you're an ass for posting someone else's personal info here.

who does depression hurt?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YKjx4BXEu0

The other day I was at CVS, picking up my Allegra, when I spotted a posting off to the side, which read as follows:

"Because too many people couldn't follow the two vacation requests a day rule, all vacation requests now have to go to your manager, who will take it DIRECTLY to [Jack and Diane], who will then decide to ALLOW OR DENY your request." [Caps in original]

I bring this up because we in this profession fancy ourselves the eternal sufferers. I'm not saying we don't get fucked on occasion - God knows I've had to skip vacations - but at least there is a constant modicum of respect. "Regular folks" often go without that.

PE - you have no future... even if you manage to get a job after law school, i cant wait to fire you

Sorry, that post is in response to 290/210

- 293

This is terrible news - my thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends.

For everyone else who has felt suicidal over a layoff, toughen the f*** up. A lay-off is devastating, no doubt. I was just fired two weeks ago. But guess what? You get over it and move on. It's easy to smile and look happy when times are good; the true test of mettle is when the shit hits the fan, and you are still calm and smiling. Bad times are part of life. You can't hide from them. A cushy Ivy League law degree won't protect you from storms, no matter how much you surround yourself with BMWs and Prada bags. Toughen up and keep smiling. This will all pass. My deepest condolences to both the families.

Why try to out the woman? What does it matter? Her friends and family know.

Have a little respect for the deceased.

Why did Simpson Thacher kill this girl?

Simpson = the grody suicide firm from now on.

74, thanks for giving a realistic prospective. It's time that we stop valuing ourselves simply on the amount of money we make, or where we work. Life is really meant to be enjoyed - even during the detours. Our American mindset is so unhealthy - maybe this is a wakeup call for all of us. I hope so.

I bet all the Simpson partners care about is the bad press they're getting.

I bet all sallie mae cares about is that it won't be getting it's 150k.

Fuckers.

its TTT grad. its.

Any firms been put on suicide watch?

296,

Anyone who has a modicum of brain power should listen to you. Great attitude.

It doesn't matter one bit that you are currently employed, since you will likely be successful again with a winning attitude like that. If you truly believe what you wrote, you've got what they call "guts" and "strength," and you will soon be kicking ass and taking names at whatever you choose to do. People should be so lucky to have your disposition.

Good luck.

If she had a co-signer Sallie Mae may still be getting its 150k. These debts are iron clad, even after death.

PE--

Please do the world a favor and observe a vow of absolute silence for the rest of that miserable expanse of time you so casually refer to as your life.

89----right on. The fact that people want to killthemselves because they can't get in makes me feel even more depressed that I can't get out.

If you want to be in this career for the long haul, you have to role with punches. I went to a top-20 law school and did not have a job for 6 months after law school and then had to temp for a while and do staff attorney nonsense for 2 years. I have been out a while, have a better job and I think have good job security because I stuck with it. But if I find myself out on the street again, I will be bummed but I will pound the pavement again - a lay-off is bad, but it is not the end of the world. And if you focus on the big picture and work hard, you should be able to eventually get where you want to be. Sorry for sounding preachy but I don't think anyone should ponder suicide because of a lay-off from a law firm- it's tragic, but if it happens to you, need to keep busy and stay in touch people- especially your family. This is a marathon, not a race.

286: can't be, I had lunch with her the other day, unless . . . . . .

I would like to share my story with you, briefly.

When we were busy, I was so depressed I ate seamless web every night and gained 25 lbs. Every time I used the urinal I thought about blowing my brains out and how the blood would look on the white tiles. I started smoking pot after many years of abstinence. This made my insomnia worse, which meant I was working 12-14 days on 2-3 hours of sleep. People would comment--TO ME--on how badly I was aging, how tired I looked.

Then the firm got slow and I started fearing for my job. The carnage of the earlier layoffs made me feel sick all the time. *On a very small scale* it was like being a soldier, watching your comrades fall and knowing you coul be next, mixed with the guilt that you weren't any less deserving than them. While I had hated my life, I feared being unemployed more.

When I received my annual review a few months ago, I was told I was being put on probation for poor performance. This was total bullshit. Despite my depression, insomnia and drug use, my reviews the previous year had been excellent and I was only improving. The firm was laying the groundwork for a rash of layoffs, should it come to that. I found out other associates were hearing the same thing and that yet other associates, some who had been well-regarded, were being fired.

Since then, however, I have felt happy since the first time I was offered my position. I could continue to make lots of money with very little work for at least six months--three months probation, then three months after they fired me. That's a lot of time to explore New York when you're not very busy. I spend my time watching TV and going to Asian massage parlors, where I'm careful not to do anything that could result in an STD. Also, did you know BBC America has lots of great documentaries?

Anyway, I don't have some great capper to my story. I'm just happy and even though I know it's fleeting, that's enough for me right now. You gotta grab those moments.

303 - What you say is great, but if 296 is laid off, and didn't have the money to pay ~$250/m for COBRA (this is the premium even with BHO's subsidy), I bet his attitude will change when he has maxed out his credit cards because he had to go to ER and spend a few nights in the hospital. Good luck staying motivated through that one

309, great attitude, but sounds like you got lucky in finding yourself in a firm that went about it in such a classy way (from a BigLaw perspective); I mean 6 months to prepare for the inevitable. A little different when a firm sends you to work in their office oversees and after you return includes you in the next round of layoffs with two months of severance.

Re: student loan discharge

Any student who thinks they stand a chance of getting an "undue hardship" discharge in bankruptcy and has the mental faculties and foresight to plan such an idea is an idiot and is not going to get one.

You're pretty much looking at permanent severe disability or a really disasterous personal situation (on top of not being able to pay the loans when you file BK; that's not good enough). For a young BigLaw attorney - strong education, marketable, excellent credentials, long career track - you don't have any chance at all absent something permanent and unpleasant.

312 -- What you say is technically correct ... But that was before Change came to Washington! BHO and Democratic majority, baby! BHO, BHO, BHO ....
The masses voted for him, so he will work for us!

PE - What, no response?

Perhaps that's because using a tragic death to criticize the current administration (by creating a nexus just about as strong as the 9/11-Iraq connection) is absolutely indefensible.

If you are truly a retired partner, it is no wonder you have so much time to comment on this site... After all, who wants to spend time with THAT?

Make sure that you apply for, receive, and sign up for health insurance BEFORE you go see a therapist. If you have seen a therapist, particularly in the past five years, your premiums will be higher and you may even be denied.

Please, if you're feeling suicidal, talk to someone. People need to remember these times - when in our so called "noble" profession where NALP guidelines (what a joke) prohibit you from looking at other options until your firm screws you over, remember that these jerks held 2 million (vs. a paltry 1.5 million) in PPP to be more important than the futures of many of their colleagues. Don't forget, and if you're in a place like that, get out as soon as you can.

235 - No interviews, no. Most applications don't even result in a "thank you" email or letter. I used to hate those headhunter calls (1-4/day), and now...

Good luck. We need it.

The ship be sinking???

2 McKee Nelson Associates committed suicide this year within months of each other way before the STB person and Mark Levy

I was horrified to see this article. She would have hated this. I can only hope ATL has the decency to take this article down out of respect for the family's wishes regarding a private matter. This article is clearly based on unbridled speculation from the ill-informed and several of the facts are inaccurate or flatly wrong. It is an example of shockingly irresponsible journalism. I hope they find and fire the associate that leaked this. Working at a law firm should not make someone a public figure.

now if we can just get the deans and adminstrations of all these TTT law schools to consider committing suicide, we would no longer have to worry about the massive oversupply of new lawyers.

243- Go Fuck Yourself!

There are moves in Congress to amend the statute on student loan discharges. The point here is that NO ONE should despair to the point of suicide over money. Worst case, you hunker down and become judgment proof or have 10%-15% of whatever salary you earn garnished. With BO and and a Democratic Congress, a change in the law is very possible with this recession.

Let us offer solutions on this blog, NOT THE CONTINOUS WHINING of some of you POS's. I'm 48 years old and have been through poverty growing up. Things always turn around. Never lose heart.

My deepest sympathy to the family for their loss.

My frequency of masturbation has increased 100% since being laid off.

Please discuss.

i guess this confirms the STB layoffs

STB=TTT

This is horrible and NO answer to a TEMPORARY setback in life. I've been through this but at a much later age (45) and without substantial clients of my own which made prospects MUCH worse. If I can recover you can. The important thing is to get the layoff crap behind you. Spend a day or two being bitter and angry and then plan forward; do not waste time by allowing this to become a judgment on you personally or professionally. The partners that run law firms are not gods - I want no part of Heaven if God is a pasty-white, out of shape condescending arse whose spent his indoor life examining documents and I are supremely confident He is not. The economy is bad but its nothing like the heart of the Depression wtih upwards of 30 percent unemployment. There is one benefit to being laid off -you have TIME that you can put to your own benefit. Pick up a skill, especially one that will set you apart from the crowd, such as a language that not many speak or write but which is growing in function and in frequrency - Chinese or Arabic. Study for and get a professional license in a field that you've worked in or which otherwise interests you - real estate broker, customs broker, Certified Financial Planner. While your'e concentrating your job search, try substitute teaching -- its money and unlike most who do this, you actually bring a lot into the classroom. Your potential employer will get a lot of resumes, when he or she sees this it may pique their interest. Try returning to your church, synagogue or mosque and get invovled; there are many people there who are not self-interested and who will genuinely want to help you. But always remember there are many of us out here who are pullling for you and insist that you make it and as long as that is the case, and it always will be, you should never even consider any act such as this.

Ban PE.

All the people offering supposed advice are making me feel more suicidal, because they're making the future sound BLEAK.

If I am going to end up a substitute teacher, I'll just kill myself right now, ty.

-laid off first year

Yolanda Young here. I heard she killed self after reading my 45 page employment discrimination Complaint.

To # 327 - didn't say you're going to "end up" being a substitute teacher. No thought of it being a permanent or semi-permanent gig. Instead, its a means of making some money after you've been laid off and while you're searching for the right law job.

235 -- I was told to leave earlier this year (I got 3 months to pretend I was still working). Am a senior lit associate, so that makes the job market even tougher on some level (lots of firms won't want to look at someone that senior) while giving more of a chance for inhouse positions. The first month, I got no interviews. The second month, I got something like 6 or 7. None of the in-house opportunities panned out, but I just started at a boutique law firm and taking only a very small pay cut. So yes, there are opportunities out there.

If you are Yolanda Young, please seek help, reach out.

330 - that is encouraging to hear. Thanks.

Marine JAG shouldn't be lumped in with the others. There was a thread on this a while ago that included a story on a Marine JAG stepping in and leading an infantry assault in Iraq after after the "normal" CO was put out of action.

Marine JAG shouldn't be lumped in with the others. There was a thread on this a while ago that included a story on a Marine JAG stepping in and leading an infantry assault in Iraq after after the "normal" CO was put out of action.

*becomes a substitute teacher for $90 a day, commits triple suicide*

All we are is dust in the wind.

Frat Stud

Think bipolar. What drips from many of the "life will be great" posts.

www.mytotalmoneymakeover.com

Losing your job is not the end of the world. Go to this website and check out what Dave Ramsey has to say about your finances. It's the real deal...

No, 338, losing your biglaw job as a first year when you have six figure debt IS the end of the world.

None of you suck it up assholes are tailoring your reassurances to people like me, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. I couldn't get a job to save my life. I am FUCKED FUCKED FUCKED.

QUINN REMAINS more approved of than PE, though in this context it's easy to see why. My condolences to the associates family and friends.

339 - it's some shit, there's no question, but people come back from bad times. Put all of your loans into forbearance, cut your expenses to zero and take some time to figure it out. Enroll in your school's loan repayment program if there is one. If all else fails, there's always bankruptcy with the hope that you could at least get your interest rates reduced / some of the debt discharged. Might take you a while to get back on your feet but you will.

341, if i went through all this just to declare bankruptcy, then i'd rather just die now. i have basically been getting fucked my whole life, but kept trying to improve things. i thought my hard work had finally paid off when i got my biglaw job. now i am again fucked. things will just never work out, no matter how hard i try. i should have killed myself at 14 and saved myself all this trouble. fuck you anti-suicide people and your bullshit.

I really agree strongly about seeing a therapist/counselor. Throughout my life I always prided myself on being the person that all my friends came to with their problems, but I never really had anyone to go to with mine. Sometimes friends and family don't understand what you're going through especially if it seems a little silly (I had a melt down over a work issue). Don't be afraid to talk to someone who is paid to sit and listen to you and possibly offer some insight. Also, if you're a private person, you don't have to share everything with your therapist. Only share what you're comfortable sharing. I think it makes a world of difference. I actually plan to stop seeing my therapist soon, but I'm glad I had a resource to turn to or else I might have made some stupid decisions just because I felt out of control and helpless.

95: Um, the guys who started Skadden were Catholic.

i should have just killed myself as a teen and spared myself the hell that has been my pos life.

-laid off first year

339-

If you had good enough grades to land a Biglaw Offer, get a job with the IRS. Work there for four years and then you can land any BigLaw job that you want.

Suck it up.

Tax Stud

343

you forgot the part where you say "i am now gainfully employed and my student debts have been repaid."

listen you stupid assholes, no one wants to hear your self improvement, i feel happier bullshit. we want to hear stories about laid off first years who have found good jobs and repaid their debts. god damn you people suck.

I know everyone will piggy-pile on me for this, but I have to say it: God can help. I see a lot of people talking about lawyers' assistance programs and friendship networks and whatnot... all of those are great things but they pale in comparison to honest prayer. God just has a way of making your problems seem a lot smaller.

Ok, bring on the flame.

"cut all expenses"

that's practical. i'll just sleep in a cardboard box.

348, lol at looking to a magic fairy to save you

Most if not all of you are fucked. Besides an entitlement mentality, you chose to bet the house and swing for the fences. Discharging student loan would be rewarding bad financial decision making. Life lesson not taught by any school.

I remember things not looking too good when I had $100k of debt from law school (2006 graduate) no job and had just failed the Cali bar. I was 24 years old and washed up already. Fucking humiliating.

So I moved to a different state, got a job making $15 an hour as a law clerk, which barely serviced my student loan debt, cut my expenses, and stopped believing I was King Shit of Turd Mountain who was entitled to whatever I wanted just because I had followed my peers lemming-like into the great law school pyramid scheme. I took the bar in my new state, passed it, started working at a SMALLLAW (2 attorneys, including me) general practice firm doing trailer park divorces, PI cases, whatever else comes in the door.

Sometimes it's a horrendous job, sometimes there is no better job. It all depends on what day it is. My income has slowly climbed, nowhere near what my classmates were making in Cali before the whole casino collapsed, but enough to have bought my first house (1200 sq. ft. baby!) and my first car. I am slowly obtaining status and respect in the local bar in which I practice.

More importantly I now see the big picture and that YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE LONG VIEW! Put away your ego and start beating the street to find somewhere - anywhere - where they can put you to work, and start rebuilding your career. Believe me, failing a bar was a pretty big setback, but three years out I consider it the best thing to ever happen to me. You just never know how these things will work out!

You may be down but you're not out until you stop fighting. Everyone loves a good comeback, and if you were able to make it through college and law school YOU HAVE IT IN YOU! GO OUT AND DO IT! IT'S NOT TOO LATE!

Sorry for the rambling, but I had to share my story because I remember some dark moments when I never could have imagined a light at the end of the tunnel. It's there. Don't snuff it.

C'mon Elie. If you're going to remove comments, just put in "Comment removed by moderator." Don't delete everything, you're screwing up the numbering.

352, that sounds awful

stop telling depressing stories without a happy ending you fucking assholes. they just make me want to kill self more.

351 is right. mass suicide in manhattan anyone?

lol @ 348...

i bet it all on my legal career, and now i'm a laid off first year.

Every day I have to drag myself out of bed to face the cruel vagaries of BigLaw. What was once at least a relatively placid firm on the surface has turned into a work mill with the morale of a concentration camp, where associates who have babysat each other's children will knife each other in the back over who gets a pathetic 2 hour billable assignment. While I'm brushing my teeth, and before silently saying goodbye to my still-sleeping family for the next 14 hours, I tell myself "Hey, at least you're not belly down in raw sewage disarming IEDs in 120 degree heat." The rest of the day I'm all smiles.

Few points: (and I realize it is hard to sound authoritative on an anonymous blog, but I'll try)

1. Under current bankruptcy law and precedent cases, there is no fucking way one of us can discharge our educational loans. Judging from mortgage cramdown provision that was shut down in Congress, I highly doubt the law will be change to allow us to discharge our educational loans. There is a higher chance of a credit card bailout. I guess you can try to pay off your educational loans with credit cards to qualify for that, if that ever happens.

2. You retarted fucks who are still working by pure luck, don't kid yourself that you would take a McDs job for 8 bucks an hour. You won't. And if you do, that is something that will really make you think of suicide. There are, however, things you can do as an attorney in terms of providing cheap legal services to people for say 20 bucks an hour.

3. We all must realize that partners are pussies when it comes to any kind of physical confrontation. Do not kill yourself. Do not kill other attorneys. But suddenly taking out their shoulder on the street while smiling or spilling coffee on their fancy suit or other ways of physical indimidation may make them think about firing so many people next time. I mean, we know their home addresses. If you really feel like your life in law is over...

4. Greatest hit when being laid off is not money, believe it or not. I am able to survive on unemployment plus a little bit of savings ok. Just don't waste money, don't eat out and try to buy stuff on sale. Greatest his is one to your self confidence, preception of yourself as a somebody (I mean, you used to be really a big shit with your fancy office, fancy views, clothes, working on deals from WSJ, etc.). Now, you walk around and see yourself as a loser even compared to people who you thought were losers just a few months before. Also, because it happens so suddenly, it is really a shock how everything and everybody changes. This is when you will figure our who are your friends or just decent people and who are just total assholes. You will be surprised. You are worried about having a career at midlaw and being anything more than some shitty little law lawyer. You feel bad not because of the money, but because of the injustice of it and waste of your abilities. I still think things will come back in one form or other and 90% of us will be all right, but it is difficult to see when even recruiters (the dirt of the earth) stop calling you.

I lost my job at Thacher Proffitt when100 of them just went on their merry way to Sonnenschein and said "good luck to you" to the rest of the 100 lawyers they left behind. Nice. But suicide lets the guilty go free. Better to stick around to see the karma come back to get them - maybe even help it along.

339 -

It may take some time but you will get out of debt. It takes hard work but it is possible. When you stop feeling sorry for yourself, please get off your butt and do something about your situation instead of whining about it. God helps those who help themselves.

-338

Almost everyone I talked to at my Simpson callback looked suicidal.

361.

i have been trying, and nothing is working.

as if my only goal is to get out of debt. i wanted a career. now, my only hope is that sweet death will soon take me. you said god helps those who help themselves...

ps. lol at you believing in a magic fairy.

Again, the market is beyond difficult right now, but the whining here is even more difficult to bear. If you can't handle this, you're not really ready for the cut-throat US market economy and should lobby for a kinder, gentler system like in continental Europe. But the US economy is massive in its scale even when contracting. It's the size of a fucking continent. There are jobs out there - I got 3 job offers in the last 3 months. One was in boondocks, the other in a terrible corner of a flyover state, but each were fairly well paid and I could have lived there if nothing else came up.

My condolences to the associate and her family.

There are a lot of insensitive and ignorant posts on this site. Whether you are an attorney, paralegal, secretary, or otherwise, to suddenly find yourself unemployed with no job prospects in the near term, when you have a mortgage and several young children, is very difficult and stressful.

I would never advocate taking one's own life. The effect of doing so on your loved ones is devastating. Please try to stay positive and get help.

However, firms need to understand the toll these decisions have on the affected employees and their families and at a minimum, show significantly greater sensitivty to this impact.

354 FTW. When I started out of law school I had $500,000 in debt, a 6000 sq ft wife and AIDS. After several years of successfully hiding her, I lost my biglaw job when the partners met my wife. (What can I say, I'm a fan of the whale tail.) I became a high-school guidance counselor making $36,000 a year, and worked part-time at a JC Penney to service the loans. After many years of scrimping and saving...I still have AIDS.

361 -

You can still have a career - it just may not be in BigLaw.

btw - Matthew Ch 13 1-9 might be worth a read...

366 is right.

every supposed inspirational story on here is FUCKING DEPRESSING and just makes me want to kill self.

sorry that was meant for 363

-367

First off, my thoughts are with the family of the deceased - I think we all wish we could have done more to help her and Mr. Levy cope.

On a different note, I can't help but shudder when I think of how poorly our generation would have handled something like the Great Depression. Seriously, people - we will all be just fine. Turn off Fox News for a little while and allow the hysteria to dissipate. Go find a crummy job like everyone else, scrape by because you're paying huge loan service payments, and hope that things turn around - there's only a 99% chance they will. Above all else, don't even THINK about ending your life - the world still needs smart, dedicated people like you, they just don't need you in biglaw right now.

Oh, and to the partners out there: just admit it that some of you had it a lot easier than we did (i.e. you graduated in a huge uptick and had biglaw firms knocking down your door despite the fact that you weren't even close to HLS-top 10) and have a friggin' heart. A 4% paycut for the next two years so you can give a few of these associates a leg up is not going to kill you (although, sadly, one of these laid-off associates might). I guaran-damn-tee you that half of you had a similar helping hand on the way to the top, so stop being selfish and share in the pain for once in your life.

PE - I'm a big fan and generally think everything's material for humor...BUT it has to be funny. This time you weren't. You came across not as a droll caricature but rather the voice of an O'Reilly or Coulter, a hateful bully. Poor form, my friend. Poor, poor form.

370, shut up.

SUICIDE IS THE ANSWER

I've said this before, but check out usajobs.gov. I was in the same situation last year and now have a fed gov job that pays pretty well for where I live and has awesome hours. Seriously, all you who are thinking bad thoughts, please check it out. There are hundreds of agencies you've never heard of that need lawyers, and if you're willing to move (the fed usu pays basic moving expenses), you've got a good shot. My agency is about to hire two more lawyers.

My layoff means I'll be in debt forever, and never have a legal career. My family and friends will no longer respect me, and I'll never get a wife. I wouldn't want the quality of woman who'd be willing to date an unemployed first year. I have no personality to boot.

/ wrists

Comment on 359:

There are a number of problems with trying the credit card gambit to eliminate educational loans. It sounds good to people who haven't had to deal with angry creditors in bankruptcy or who haven't had to deal with the State Bar ethics people.

Suffice to say that floating new large credit card limits, defrauding credit card company/bank of $150K to pay off crushing other debt burden and then Chapter 7'ing the credit cards will likely be ineffective and will certainly land you in ethics hot water.

Suicide is a terrible tragedy for the family and friends who are left behind. If you are thinking about suicide and don't know where to turn for help, please speak to a trained counselor at 1-800-273-TALK or 1-800-SUICIDE before making a choice that you can never undo.

My condolences to the associate's family and friends for their loss.

376.

again, lol you fucking asshole. advice like "please call the suicide hotline!" just makes us want to kill self more.

376 - most of the people here (377) are not suicidal but just assholes.

377,

Please don't post such sarcastic and spiteful comments toward someone just trying to help those in need. Maybe you're right that suicide helplines aren't great, but it's the best a stranger can do for anonymous suffering souls over the internet and this is not a laughing matter.

377, don't speak for me you stupid prick. i am about as suicidal as they come. i'd be dead right now if i had a good means.

Reading this thread is depressing. I'd rather go to a hell world like Salusa Secundus with its 60 percent mortality rate than rub my elbows with you whiny dregs with a $200,000 plus debt.

As others have pointed out, life goes on. You repay your debts with your job from Mickey D's. It's not the life you signed up for, but it's what you get. Me? I'll be a Sardaukar. So STFU.

As someone who had a severe depressive episode as a 1L, I can tell you that when it comes time for reporting of mental health issues on the bar, a good shrink will help you around that. As far as the shrink and the bar are concerned, I had a situational episode resulting from some crazy things that happened and given that I sought help, etc. I am not likely to experience such a situation again. I would think given the current state of legal affairs, anyone who sought mental health help now would face similar treatment by the health profession and the bar.

A little perspective from one who's been there. In 1992 I was laid off as a 5th year real estate associate from what was then Biglaw (140 attorney firm). I was married with a baby on the way. I looked for 6 months, took a couple of temp law gigs, but no luck with anything permanent (no-one wanted a mid-level real estate lawyer in 1992!). Having nothing to lose, I decided to hang out my shingle. Starting with an office in my basement, I took almost any case that came along (except divorces). After a few months, I found an office with a small firm in a suburban town that gave me some work in return for office space. I did that for a year, continuing to build my practice. By that time, I was making about $50K a year. Fortunately, my wife also worked, so we were getting by. I then went into practice with a friend from law school for three years. In my best year, 1998, I finally made what I was making when I was laid off in 1992--a big $80K. In early 1999, interest rates went up and half my real estate closing practice disappeared almost overnight. I decided to get off the solo/small practice roller-coaster and, after a few months of looking, found an in-house job with a real estate development and management company. The general counsel was retiring in a few years and my hope was to succeed him. However, after six years, the company was sold and I again found myself looking for a job. I ended up as a staff attorney with a Biglaw firm, coming full circle. I get paid about what a junior associate makes--it's not a fortune, but it's still a pretty good living, and over twice what I made when I was laid off back in 1992. Fortuantely, the client that I work for is still very busy. There were a number of times during my career that I felt pretty depressed about my prospects, but it seems that something always came along eventually. I did get some counseling help from time to time when things were looking particularly bleak. I think the hardest thing for me was getting over the idea that a career is supposed to be an ever-upward trajectory, instead of what it has turned out to be, a series of episodes, some good, some not so good. Change is inevitable, some change will be good, some change is not so good. The good times don't last forever, but it is important to note, neither do the bad times. Change is a dynamic that works both ways. At times, I have thought about leaving the law, but I don't know another way to make the money that I make. Through it all, I have mostly worked with people I like, had enough money to live a modestly comfortable suburban lifestyle, been able to spend time with my family, and indulged in my hobby of community theatre. And that's generally enough.

Oh my God. I am completely shocked by how a bunch of egotistical BigLaw dorks can pack it in and start crying like whiny litte bitches so easily. What, you think you are just ENTITLED to a 165k salary just because you got a good LSAT score and went to a good law school? Let me tell you something, you pathetic whiny babies---this is where you show how good you really are. If you are so f*cking smart and great, now is the time to use that talent. Now that you have to really work for it.

I have a piece of advice to all you crying little fairies. Instead of brooding and wallowing in your pathetic misery, go to your local library, get a library card, and go read the autobiography of Fredrick Douglass. Then go read the autobiography of Booker T. Washington. These guys grew up in slavery, no education, no skills no life. If you honestly think that you have no light at the end of the tunnel, read about these guys. They taught themselves to read and write, they immersed themselves in books and learning and they f*cking kicked ass, took names and became legendary. They changed the world and they inspired millions. you think they sat around whining like you crybabies? and they had it much much worse. they didn't even have their own freedom for christ's sake. and you have the audacity to talk about killing yourlselves? that is the most pathetic and weakest thing you can do. Sack the f*ck up and channel your inner fredrick douglass. there are real men and women out there who f*cking pulled themselves up from their boot straps and kicked ass. Are you going to be one of those people?

383's life makes me want to kill self

384

Take your Ayn Rand philosophy and shove it where the sun don't shine.

I have $200,000 shackles on me, shackles that would not have existed if higher education was free in this country. So I feel entitled to having my debt wiped out. To this end, I am dedicating my post-layoff career to lobbying Congress on this issue.

That's when I'll kick ass. Starting with ignoramuses like you.

386 - Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid.

While you're at at it why don't you get a free house, free day care and a free massuse?

If you happened to take an economics course while you were at college, you should know that there is no such thing as "free" when it comes to the government. The taxpayers shouldn't be on the hook to fund whatever you think you're entitled to. Period.

You're in debt, it sucks to be sure but I'm having a hard enough time trying to make ends meet without having to pay for you too.

Your life is the sum of your choices, there are no guarantees.

Stop trying to be pulled along in the government wagon - get out and help pull like the rest of us.

Get over yourselves - all of you! From someone who has seriously considered suicide: it is a decision you make for yourself. No one controls the circumstances of your decision; no one else is responsible for your emotions.

What the hell - it's a job: deal with it!(*!&# Jesus: if you can't handle a speed bump like this, then you are completely not cut out for BigLaw anyway.

And before you jump on your sanctimonious whine of "you don't understand," >> I am BigLaw NYC, and have nearly a quarter million in student debt. It has been said on this comment string before, and merits saying again: just being a good law student does not a good lawyer make. Have some balls and emotional fortitude, already. I am sick of the sense of entitlement and over-dramatized shock of those associates being let go >> this is life! Figure out your next step and take responsibility for your life.

Get over yourselves - all of you! From someone who has seriously considered suicide: it is a decision you make for yourself. No one controls the circumstances of your decision; no one else is responsible for your emotions.

What the hell - it's a job: deal with it!(*!&# Jesus: if you can't handle a speed bump like this, then you are completely not cut out for BigLaw anyway.

And before you jump on your sanctimonious whine of "you don't understand," >> I am BigLaw NYC, and have nearly a quarter million in student debt. It has been said on this comment string before, and merits saying again: just being a good law student does not a good lawyer make. Have some balls and emotional fortitude, already. I am sick of the sense of entitlement and over-dramatized shock of those associates being let go >> this is life! Figure out your next step and take responsibility for your life.

People are expressing a lot of hopelessness on here about never being able to get a biglaw job again after being laid off. I'm a third-year who has not been laid off (yet), but I obviously realize that I could be let go at any time. A serious question for any partners or others who have been around through previous recessions: once the economy rebounds, are biglaw or government employers ever willing to over look the usual stigma attached to having a gap in your resume if the gap arises in the middle of a bad recession? Is there any way to mitigate employers' likely concerns, either while you're unemployed or someday down the line when you're interviewing?

shouldn't have taken the loans to start with, dipshits.

People are expressing a lot of hopelessness on here about never being able to get a biglaw job again after being laid off. I'm a third-year who has not been laid off (yet), but I obviously realize that I could be let go at any time. A serious question for any partners or others who have been around through previous recessions: once the economy rebounds, are biglaw or government employers ever willing to over look the usual stigma attached to having a gap in your resume if the gap arises in the middle of a bad recession? Is there any way to mitigate employers' likely concerns, either while you're unemployed or someday down the line when you're interviewing?

SUICIDE OF MIDDLE-AGED MALE ATTORNEY DRAWS LAMBASTING FOR SELFISHNESS, SUICIDE OF YOUNG FEMALE ATTORNEY ELICITS NEAR UNANIMOUS SYMPATHY.

393

One has a family; one is unmarried. One has a storied career, and one is starting out. One (presumably) has no debt, and one has massive student loans. One is older, one is younger.

One is not like the other.

If you don't get it, you don't get it.

But please do not try to call yourself a lawyer or dispense legal advice. Your clients will be sorry, and, eventually, so will you after you get disbarred.

But I'll say this nicely -- you're not the cream of the crop.

What are the details? Which STB office? What year was the associate?

This says a lot about the culture of that office. Even if someone has a mental health issue, a toxic culture seems to be a contributing factor. After all, this person dealt with all the other stresses of life (law school, bar exam, getting a job after law school, etc...) up to a few weeks ago. The job, and the culture of the firm (and the office in particular) are significant factors in what has happened. And, of course this reflects poorly on STB and the particular STB office at issue.

What are the details? Which STB office? What year was the associate?

This says a lot about the culture of that office. Even if someone has a mental health issue, a toxic culture seems to be a contributing factor. After all, this person dealt with all the other stresses of life (law school, bar exam, getting a job after law school, etc...) up to a few weeks ago. The job, and the culture of the firm (and the office in particular) are significant factors in what has happened. And, of course this reflects poorly on STB and the particular STB office at issue.

What are the details? Which STB office? What year was the associate?

This says a lot about the culture of that office. Even if someone has a mental health issue, a toxic culture seems to be a contributing factor. After all, this person dealt with all the other stresses of life (law school, bar exam, getting a job after law school, etc...) up to a few weeks ago. The job, and the culture of the firm (and the office in particular) are significant factors in what has happened. And, of course this reflects poorly on STB and the particular STB office at issue.

384 is right though: you T14 silver-spoon babies are a bunch of whiny, entitled jackoffs.

Your whole lives are based on pursuit of money and "prestige". All you care about is what your equally shallow, entitled peers think of you. That is why it is so difficult for the rest of the world to feel even a modicum of sympathy for you when your lives don't go as planned.

Pride goes before a fall.

393

One has a family; one is unmarried. One has a storied career, and one is starting out. One (presumably) has no debt, and one has massive student loans. One is older, one is younger.

One is not like the other.

If you don't get it, you don't get it.

But please do not try to call yourself a lawyer or dispense legal advice. Your clients will be sorry, and, eventually, so will you after you get disbarred.

But I'll say this nicely -- you're not the cream of the crop.

These people clearly could not handle adversity. I'm sure they all lived the high life spending their grand salaries like they were the Rockefellers and never saved for that rainy day. Gotta love the losers who pay in excess of $3,000/month on RENT!!!! Friggin rent.

394 / 399: I presume that you mean that the K&S lawyer was the one with the family. However, if you read the above instead of just making snarky comments like a jerk, you would know from the Simpson Thacher notice that "the FAMILY [of the deceased associate] requests privacy."

You don't think that the S&T associate might have a mother, father and siblings that will grieve for the rest of their lives? Do you know that the S&T associate did not have any children? Maybe most of the kids in your law school don't have kids yet, but lots of the associates at my firm do.

"One (presumably) has no debt" Are you serious? The older attorney is likely to have WAY more debt (mortgage????) and expenses than the younger one, especially with the family that you assume he has.

Also, your unwarranted personal attacks on me are exactly the type of thoughtlessness and lack of professionalism that plague this site and the practice of the law.

p.s. "After submitting a comment it may take several minutes to appear. Please only submit your comment once."

I know this isn't how depressed or bi-polar people think, but almost everyone with a law degree has a 1000 better options than killing themselves.

Even though this recession is the worst in years, remember that it's neither the first nor the last. It will pass. The economy will pick up in the next 1-3 years. When it does, every employer that has been tightening their belt and working with a skeleton staff will be swamped and looking to hire. Once companies and firms lift the hiring freezes they've had in effect for the last year or so, you're going to see a lot of hiring and lots of people leaving their old jobs and creating openings. So things won't stay bad forever. Do what you have to do to get by for now, but remember that this is a temporary setback and that things will turn around.

Second, even now, things aren't as bad or hopeless as they seem. For a lot of people, the biggest stresser is loan payments. But it helps to keep a little perspective on those. For one thing, federal loans are really easy to put into forbearance. For the average graduate, this is the bulk of your debt. Private lenders are tougher to deal with, but 97% of private lenders will agree to an alternative payback arrangement. Even if you have an incredible private loan load, the odds are great that you can get it down to $500 a month for at least a year or two (especially now, while interest rates are close to nothing). Coming up with $500 a month is not a challenge. And if it is, borrow the money from your parents. I know that suicidal people don't want to weigh down their family with their troubles, but trust me, killing yourself will weigh a lot more heavily. And if you must think about it in purely economic terms, borrowing loan payments will cost a lot less than your funeral.

Finally, if you don't believe anything that I've said above, and you're positive that the economy will never turn around that you're never going to be able to pay back your debt, so what!!! If an option as drastic as killing yourself is on the table, why not put other drastic options on the table? For instance, why not just say "fuck it" and run away? Seriously, if you're going to throw away your future, don't do it with suicide, do it by getting a plane ticket to Europe, South America or the Caribbean and seeing what adventures you can find. Join the peace corp or just find some third world beach where you can live for pennies a day and do a lot of drugs. Hike the entire appalachian trail or by a bike and try to ride it out to Colorado in time for next year's ski season. You'll get into great shape, lose all your law fat and life won't be that bad. If you're other option is suicide, anything is on the table. You might as well do some really cool things before you go.

Don't be myopic. If the worst thing about your present situation is that you don't get to be a lawyer (which sucks btw), that's not the end of the world.

Just to be clear: the STB associate who died worked in the NY office and was NOT laid off. Also, the site linked to by 170 does NOT depict the deceased associate. Those attorneys are alive and well.

Just to be clear: the STB associate who died worked in the NY office and was NOT laid off. Also, the site linked to by 170 does NOT depict the deceased associate. Those attorneys are alive and well.

402 - You are the first person to make some sense in this thread. If my offer gets revoked, which seems more and more likely with every passing day, I swear to god I will actually take your advice and run away to a beach somewhere and smoke weed all day. You're dead on -- if you are suicidal anyways, trying a new experience can't hurt.

But I disagree with you about the economy turning around. This thing can last another 10 years and it would just be another blip in the history books. Our generation had it too easy -- we had good economic times while growing up, which lead to unreasonable expectations.

Nice, 229.

Thanks, 383

392,

Here's how I see this playing out. My firm, like tons of other firms out there, has vigorously reduced head count in slow practice areas, such that our staffing is now more in line with the available work. In the corporate group, where I practice, over a third of the associates have been laid off, and we're now down to a 1 to 1 partner to associate ratio.

In a year or two when market activity return to normal levels (not the boom levels, but more than what's currently out there), we are going to be very understaffed and extremely busy (especially the midlevels and senior associates that can actually handle deals). Once partners have trouble staffing their deals with experienced people and have to start staying late every night to do the deals themselves, we'll start looking to hire experienced midlevels from other good firms. Of course, by the time that happens for our firm, it will have happened for a host of other firms and in-house legal departments. Once firms and in-house departments start hiring again, the most sought after people will be experienced midlevel associates from big firms that were considered good enough not be laid off (which is a pretty small pool right now). Associates meeting this description will have tons of opportunities, and every midlevel and senior associate that's been waiting for the economy to improve in order to make a career change will. (This is exactly what's happening right now for bankruptcy attorneys.) This will intensify the shortage and the trickle down effect will ultimately be hiring of formerly laid off associates at some point in the waterfall.

On a less relevant note: I guess we have (sad) confirmation of what has been reported in these comment threads for months: Simpson is slowly stealth laying people off.

Perhaps Simpson thought that telling the associates that they are being let go for performance reasons would keep it quiet.

Perhaps Simpson thought that a slow dribble of layoffs wouldn't get noticed.

Seems Simpson was wrong.

The devastation is not just a question of being laid off, it is also a question of being told, as you are shown the door, that you were let go because you were a crappy lawyer. Simpson needs to stop with the stealth layoffs and admit what it's doing: laying people off due to the slowing economy. Other really good lawfirms have admitted this. Why can't Simpson be honest, too?

Let's be clear-- Suicide is final--There are no second chances. You do it and that is it--you're done. There's no waking up tomorrow, as you have so many times, and starting over. Nope. you're off the playing field forever. For some the pain is that bad, or the character is that weak. But for many who do it, they really just want to end the pain or get out of the mess, they aren't thinking ahead to the finality of what they are doing. Don't keep throwing these words around. I'm so tired of people saying, "I can't take it anymore, I want to kill myself!" Really? Things didn't go the way you'd planned? So, fuck it, give me the gun/pills/window. Best to remember the old wisdom that says: "People Plan and God Laughs" So, what is it you don't like it when God gets in your way? It's got to be your way-- or no way? And you'll prove it with suicide? What an act of hubris!. A choice that cuts God and possibility out of life's equation Suicide is a final act where you willfully defy God and bring your curtain down. Forever.

Guys in my high school used to commit suicide all the time. It was no big deal...

Let's be clear-- Suicide is final--There are no second chances. You do it and that is it--you're done. There's no waking up tomorrow, as you have so many times, and starting over. Nope. you're off the playing field forever. For some the pain is that bad, or the character is that weak. But for many who do it, they really just want to end the pain or get out of the mess, they aren't thinking ahead to the finality of what they are doing. Don't keep throwing these words around. I'm so tired of people saying, "I can't take it anymore, I want to kill myself!" Really? Things didn't go the way you'd planned? So, fuck it, give me the gun/pills/window. Best to remember the old wisdom that says: "People Plan and God Laughs" So, what is it you don't like it when God gets in your way? It's got to be your way-- or no way? And you'll prove it with suicide? What an act of hubris! A choice that cuts God and possibility out of life's equation. Suicide is a final act where you willfully defy God and bring your curtain down. Forever.

405,

If nothing else, all of the private equity firms and strategic buyers that were acquiring companies left and right during the previous boom will look to sell those companies at some point. It might be at a loss and a decent number might be sales out of bankruptcy, but either way, there will be a lot more legal work than there is now.

We also know that there are tons of companies that have been sitting on the sidelines for the last year and a half waiting for the capital markets to improve enough to issue new debt or equity. These markets are going to start to unfreeze as soon as some stability returns and investors feel confident the worst of the storm has passed, which is starting to happen even now. In a year or two, business will be MUCH busier for law firms, and it's going to happen before the general economy starts to improve.

Not one STB partner will lose sleep over this, and behind closed doors, they'll shake their heads and say she was subpar because she couldn't hack it ("it" being their deliberate abuse).

Law school professionals, when are you going to wake up and realize that what you are selling is misery, and that saying you're just giving people what they want makes you no better than crack dealers? Stop focusing all career/placement resources on collaborating with BigLaw and start working on helping your students develop options other than working for dishonest, slave driving, and often outright evil firms and partners. The system must change, and the law schools are where this begins.

French Foreign Legion. Seriously. Learn french. Visit exotic places, meet new people, and kill them.

Best of all, get a french passport and a new identity. No student loans then.

Although, five years from now, adopting your old US identity so you can pass the bar may bring up that whole ugly student loan thing again.

On the other hand, go to law school again (this time a cheap in state school) and start completely all over.

I can honestly say that this is one of the saddest comment threads I have ever read.

I have been laid off twice in my career and worked at a firm that is being sued for racketeering. My practice area constantly changes and it has been a lot of work constantly learning new skills.

I decided the law firm life is not for me. People I trusted lied to me and said that I would not be laid off, etc. Other attorneys I worked with compromised their ethics to make money.

I am the only college grad in my family and I thought that my education would guarantee financial stability and that I wouldn't have to face the same issues my parents faced. Unfortunately, life doesn't work like that.

Trust me, I have felt depressed and thought my life was hopeless at times. Until recently, my job and salary was my identity. Making more money than anyone I knew made me feel superior and immune from criticism.

Then, one day, I realized how f'ing stupid I was. The cost of having a prestigious title and a large salary was my happiness, health and sanity. The partners I worked with were greedy a-holes, nobody could be trusted, I was a slave to my possessions, I treated people badly, I drank way too much...and so on.

It is difficult to stop basing your self worth on your job title and salary, I still struggle with it. A lot of people need to realize that working for a big firm isn't the greatest life and that many people in those positions turn into miserable human beings.

I am starting my own practice and it is scary. However, I am happy that I will not have to dread coming into work to be abused by an a-hole partner.

Life is too short.

414: What you are saying is mostly true, but I think right now, being a crack dealer is more prestigious than being a lawyer.

403: If she wasn't laid off, why not just quit instead of take your own life. At least with Levy I get it. Not a STB'er who was not laid off.

416, what firm is being sued for racketeering?

NervousT101L,

You can have this after I'm done.

Go for it 416!

-383

P.S. to 385--While my life may not be the most exciting, once you have a family to support, there are other considerations. Get back to me in 20 years.

The lives of pathetic worms living in fear and debt does not impress me.

~Cthulhu

student lenders should demand co signers for loans. this would make suicide a less rational financial decision as it would only stick your mom and dad with the debt.

412,

If you believe the universe is a giant simulation, then, perhaps you have a second chance after this life. But what does it say about you that you struggle in you next life and achieve exactly the same result? That you are a peon in this life and the next?

#424. #414 here i said nothing about the next life. I was only speaking about this life. What happens in your next life is up to a power far greater than we.

Many of us were sceptical that STB was actually laying off people, but I guess this story just confirmed that it is truly happening behind the scenes. STB is actually laying off.

403-404: please shut up and go away. Your lies are helping nobody and there is no point in covering up for your boss. Please give proper respect to the dead by refraining from spreading lies.

Many of us were sceptical that STB was actually laying off people, but I guess this story just confirmed that it is truly happening behind the scenes. STB is actually laying off.

403-404: please shut up and go away. Your lies are helping nobody and there is no point in covering up for your boss. Please give proper respect to the dead by refraining from spreading lies.

#424, I meant It's #410 (opps!) and 412 here.
I've been seriously depressed, in great pain, and had staggeringly personal losses. I have at times wanted to lie down and go deep, deep, to sleep and never wake up again. The world as we knew it, since 911 really, has not been what we'd grown used to, know and counted on,and it continues to spiral every which way. But now know that things pass. A rainy day feels so complete, like it's always been and alway will be raining. But it does clear, doesn't it? The only constant is change. Everything is mutable. Except suicide. At least for this lifetime, if you do that, you're done.

work your ass off to get a good undergrad gpa> work your ass off to get a high lsat score>go to a top ranked law school>brag about how you go to a top ranked law school on above the law> get a big law job> get fired> commit suicide......SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT LIFE TO ME!!!

work your ass off to get a good undergrad gpa> work your ass off to get a high lsat score>go to a top ranked law school>brag about how you go to a top ranked law school on above the law> get a big law job> get fired> commit suicide......SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT LIFE TO ME!!!

Nothing in this world is worth taking your own life, nothing -- not Nancy Grace or another stranger, not woman, and certainly not a law firm.

As some have said, succeeding in spite of this and watching karma get the prick partners in large firms is worth looking forward to and is the best revenge. Psycho-therapy is crap (just shows weakness and is like paying for a friend); just share your thoughts with a real friend, or on this blog (where, despite being silly at times, readers and commentators do pay attention).

Please do not kill yourselves; it is more likely to make these scumbag millionaire partners at large firms happy, than not.

#286: Posting personal details is over the line. Not only are you WRONG, but that comment is disrespectful to the person who died and the person you mentioned. Shame on you!

403-404:Shame on you for covering up for your employer by attempting to put on a positive spin on the ruthless actions of the partners. This is disrespectful to the person who died and who deserves respect.

403-404:Shame on you for covering up for your employer by attempting to put on a positive spin on the ruthless actions of the partners. This is disrespectful to the person who died and who deserves respect.

403-404:Shame on you for covering up for your employer by attempting to put on a positive spin on the ruthless actions of the partners. This is disrespectful to the person who died and who deserves respect.

Judging from some of the above posts, the folks at Simpson's Business Development department REALLY need to take a course or two in Ethics...

Why is it so hard for Simpson to admit that it is conducting stealth layoffs?

details please. who died?

I don't understand the critics who are not happy with this news item. If you are not interested, don't read it! This is news relating to the legal industry, and as such, deserves its place on ATL just as much as other news items posted on ATL.

Besides, this is also strongly related to the layoffs coverage which ATL has been doing: this is ACTUAL PROOF that Simpson is indeed doing stealth layoffs, despite the lies Simpson's PR machine has been throwing at us. Simpson is slowly stealth laying people off. There, I've said it, there is no need to continue lying anymore.

I don't understand the critics who are not happy with this news item. If you are not interested, don't read it! This is news relating to the legal industry, and as such, deserves its place on ATL just as much as other news items posted on ATL.

Besides, this is also strongly related to the layoffs coverage which ATL has been doing: this is ACTUAL PROOF that Simpson is indeed doing stealth layoffs, despite the lies Simpson's PR machine has been throwing at us. Simpson is slowly stealth laying people off. There, I've said it, there is no need to continue lying anymore.

Let's be clear: suicide is not due to the fact that associates have a feeling of "entitlement". The depression is due not only to the fact that the person has lost iher job, and her means of livelihood. No more income to pay the school loans and the mortgage. No way to make ends meet. And you feel as though you have wasted the past few years of your lives doing something you are apparently no good at.

Add the fact that as you are shown the door, you are told that it is because you were a poor lawyer and are let go for "performance reasons", even though you consistently had great feedback and had the impression you were doing a good job, and you have a better picture why one can get so depressed so as to commit suicide.

u were a crappy lawyer. Simpson needs to stop with the stealth layoffs and admit what it's doing: laying people off due to the slowing economy. Other really good lawfirms have admitted this. Why can't Simpson be honest, too?

people like this are little turds that have gone to ivy league schools and can't handle finding out that they aren't as "special" as the names on their college degrees make them think they are......

As someone who knew her very very well, I can assure you that the loss of her job as a lawyer at Simpson was not the primary cause of her decision. A catalyst, yes, but not the cause. (She was far too intelligent for that.)

There is a lesson, however, for those working long hours in law firms or banks or elsewhere. Do whatever is necessary to ensure you have balance in your life. Seek out and spend a LOT of quality time with friends, so that when you go from 2800 hours per year (which she enjoyed, but otherwise I wouldn't advise it), you are not faced with a hole of emptiness in your outside life and wondering where your life went.

One last thought for the posters here-- I know it's a lot to ask on a site like this, but have some respect.

Good idea to join the military. All the officers in this area live in enormous new construction homes and none of the military wives ever have to work.

#440 Thank you for sharing your understanding with us.
When one's entire life suddenly is not what you thought it was, when your value is stripped from you, when you put your heart and soul and everything you have into your work, and then you are chosen as one of the ones not worth keeping I can imagine the implosion and disintegration that can ensue, especially if you are not tethered by other elements that need and love you daily. Balance. Yes we need to lead balanced lives We''ve all lost our balance this year. If we haven't lost something, a job, a loved one, we fear we will, we're all in need of restored balance and learning how to get comfortable with loss, as it will surely be around for the rest of our lives in one form or another.

One Art
by Elizabeth Bishop

The art of losing isn't hard to master;
so many things seem filled with the intent
to be lost that their loss is no disaster.

Lose something every day. Accept the fluster
of lost door keys, the hour badly spent.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

Then practice losing farther, losing faster:
places, and names, and where it was you meant
to travel. None of these will bring disaster.

I lost my mother's watch. And look! my last, or
next-to-last, of three loved houses went.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

I lost two cities, lovely ones. And, vaster,
some realms I owned, two rivers, a continent.
I miss them, but it wasn't a disaster.

--Even losing you (the joking voice, a gesture
I love) I shan't have lied. It's evident
the art of losing's not too hard to master
though it may look like (Write it!) like disaster.

lol at 412 believing in a cloud fairy

lol at 412 believing in a magic fairy

lol at 446 for believing rock begat rock begat life begat intelligent life begat 446 posting...stupid fuck

446 & 447 Instead of laughing and mocking at what other people believe, why not tell us what you believe in?

449, i believe many things. what i don't believe is that some invisible fairy watches my every move.

#450, Again instead of deriding what other people believe and using the word "fairy" to do it, please tell us what you DO believe in. Try instead of defining yourself by what repels you, tell us what you love and respect, believe in and gives you comfort and guidance.

I take issue with STB's stance that it is not a layoff if they tell you to look for another job, hence there are no "layoffs" at Simpson, technically.

Query when they'll form a mental health awareness committee to address this problem. They've replaced Dee with numerous committees. The human aspect of Simpson is gone for good.

Well, at least the partners get to protect their bottom line, because we all know the associates that are bearing the brunt of their greed are in a great position to handle it.

Can someone give us a name, please? It's not like Levy's identity was hidden. Why is this lady's identity a big secret??

442, yes, as you said yourself, "please have some respect" so please have respect for her family and stop attempting to cover up for your firm. Just because you are sending messages defending Simpson using your work computer does not mean that they will look favorably at you because you defended them.

And please stop insulting people's intelligence with your technicalities. Yes, the loss of the job was but a catalyst, but surely the loss of income and identity, the inability to pay back loans, the feeling of emptiness and not knowing what to do next, the depression following the fact that you are told that you are not a good lawyer and do not deserve a place at Simpson, etc. are a direct result of the layoff, and as such, the layoff is the cause of suicide.

454: the identity is kept a secret because Simpson does not want this to be in the media. Levy's identity was disclosed and as a result it appeared in numerous papers and websites, and this is something Simpson wants to avoid (just as the layoffs at Simpson are entirely stealth, and they also launch a Public Service Fellowship to hide the fact that they do layoffs).

Simpson used to be less brutal back in the times when Dee was there. those were the good times.

So this confirms it: Simpson is laying off people.

446 - You know what is hilarious - it takes more faith to be an ATHIEST than it takes to believe in God.

LOL.

Here's hoping you see the light someday. I'll pray for you.

#458, You are truly wise. When the board gets like this we all get to ponder the underlying issues of what it takes to make life worth living.

To #455 -- I AM her family, you asshole. I am not a Simpson employee, nor do I have any reason to protect the firm's reputation. At OUR request, the name has not been released (to employees, the media or anyone). The specific reason -- so we wouldn't have to see it on this blog!!! I am glad that her name has not appeared in print; she would have hated that.

I thought posting here might be cathartic, but it really isn't. I won't be signing on again.

To #455 -- I AM her family, you asshole. I am not a Simpson employee, nor do I have any reason to protect the firm's reputation. At OUR request, the name has not been released (to employees, the media or anyone). The specific reason -- so we wouldn't have to see it on this blog!!! I am glad that her name has not appeared in print; she would have hated that.

I thought posting here might be cathartic, but it really isn't. I won't be signing on again.

$461--We apologize for the cold indifference some of our posters have demonstrated here towards the deceased her family and loved ones. Most of here sincerely grieve with you. You posts helped us all understand how this could happen and protect against it from happening to us. Thank you for coming forward and again we apologize for those who push, they are probably young and know not what they do.

For your federal loans (including those from undergrad) you can use the CCRAA (College Cost Reduction and Access Act) and go under their Income Based Repayment scheme starting July 1. For someone with $130,000 in federal loan debt and an income of $50,000, the payments would only be $430 a month on that portion. Even if you had another $70,000 in private loans, those payments would be $800 under regular and $456 under extended repayment. I think that with a $50K income in a city other than NYC, you can handle $886 a month. Please look into your repayment options carefully.

As for hardship discharge of student loans: It is pretty damn rare, unless you have a medical condition that prevents you from working. Those who are in good health will have a hard time getting one in most states unless they have a brain tumor or something.

383--thanks for posting. I found some hope in your frank summary of your career path.

461: it has already been published on this blog, so it does not make sense to maintain the secrecy anymore.

So now we know that STB is laying off associates.

442, I am sorry for your loss. I appreciate your courageous post. Your description of your loved one's situation has put this tragic news into a perspective that I can understand and relate to. Thank you for your words and your advice.

465: i'm confused. why do we need to make sense on this blog?

#468 -We don't need to make sense. We should share information, our stories, our feelings, our questions and try to be kind.

I feel bad for the familes who lost their loved ones but you guys are a sorry bunch of losers (effing losers, I might add). Granted law firm partners have turned into 'we have to take care of ourselves" but if life is so bad and the world is so cruel, why don't you just go make a hole in the river?

Sorry, I meant the closest river.

#470,471 Try not to drink so much, it's unbecoming.

I'm a biglaw associate and married to a biglaw partner and these comments about harming partners are freaking me out a bit. I realize most statements are in jest, but I picture my husband's face every time I read one.

Simpson is not laying off and has not laid off associates. Anyone who is at the firm and has been keeping track of departure memos would know this (most departure memos over the past 9 months have been international associates who stay at the firm no more than 1 year in any event). Cut the bullshit, trolls.

474, you are so naive I can't believe what I just read. even the juniors I work with know the firm is laying off in small batches to stay under the radar. someo