Update Potpourri on Sullivan & Cromwell
Even people who were not stealth layoff victims write us at Above the Law, pissed about their firm’s shady treatment of their friends and colleagues. And when stealth layoffs happen at top firms, we get top emails. We initially reported that 15 - 20 people were quietly let go from Sullivan & Cromwell, but that number keeps growing:
Now about the layoffs. 30+ is much more close to the truth than 15-20 previously reported. As you have mentioned, this 15-20 associates were the ones told in February who now have already left. But layoffs are ongoing. I can personally [list names]. I’ve heard from a senior associate (who was told by friendly partner) that the plan is to lay off 10% of associates, in NY that would be about 45-50. I am … pissed about … how they handle it….They would rather destroy your reputation and self-esteem than concede to economic layoffs.
Does S&C really think that it can lay off 10% of its associates without anybody noticing?
Or, to put the question another way, does S&C really want people to think that 10% of its associates are bad lawyers?
But, this particular tipster doesn’t just want to cast aspersions and hide. Instead, the S&C associate provides hard evidence of Sullivan’s scaled back summer program.
More details after the jump.
Yesterday, we reported a few details about the S&C summer program. Today, we have hard evidence:
That clears up a question from our report yesterday. The $500 is per associate to spend on a summer, not per summer associate.
Notwithstanding the per associate cap, S&C is emphasizing all of the free things you can do with summer associates in New York City:
Our tipster adds these delightful details:
The guide also suggests taking summers on free events such as free Staten Island Ferry and we were orally told on the meeting to take summer for a walk in the Battery Park. Another interesting fact showing S&C is cheap (which I realized only recently) is that S&C has never paid for the Tax LLM of its associates not even in good times while Skadden is still paying for a Tax LLM.
Because the intense population density in NYC, there is a virtually limitless supply of ambulances zooming along the city streets. You can chase after them all day long, and it’s totally free! You might even catch up to one and that, my friends, is when the big bucks start rolling in.
But at some point, even the hardiest summer associate is going to have to eat. You might think it’s hard to have a recruitment lunch for $60 in expensive downtown New York, but S&C has provided a helpful list of locations:
Just to be clear, when Cleary suggested taking summers to Burger King, the firm was joking. Then again, we must get those glasses before the Kingons do.
Is S&C scaling back on the summer program because of the economy? Or is it because its summer associates have already shown themselves to be really bad at their jobs and undeserving of any frills?
Earlier: Sullivan & Cromwell Spring Bonus (And: The 2009 Summer Associate Budget)
Stealth Layoff Watch: Sullivan & Cromwell Has A Very Special Spring Bonus
(205) Comments
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First!
S&C PARTNERS ARE GOING TO HELL...
eh, just right-wing douche's eating shit for their decision to try and be "prestigious."
Their pain amuses me.
Now I'm just throwing this out there, but if S & C layed off associates, and those associates had relied on the promise of employment, might they have a reliance -- ie promise or estoppel -- claim against the firm? I remember a law partner of mine trying a case like this once and using Restatement 90 as proof. Any thoughts?
S&C = Dustin Pedroia's face AIDS
4 = 1L. Ever heard of at will employment? Section 90 is of no significants.
Amazing. I'm summering there. I eat better food for lunch.....as a student.
4 = assclown with false sense of entitlement.
Pertaining to your last question of thought, you are an idiot Elie. How can the S&C summer associates be really bad when they only started yesterday and probably only have done training?
S7C's recruiters must be drunks if 10% of their new associates are really terrible lawyers.
Five
Five Dollar
Five Dollar Foot Longs
Section 90 is significant to everything. Or maybe I'm just relying on previous ATL posts to my detriment to believe that Section 90 is always significant. Any thoughts?
I thought I said no more layoff posts...unless it had something to do with SkaddenDC...sheesh
I can confirm that the actual number of layoffs is closer to 50.
11 - LOL. Good one.
Why the fuck would any associate want to take out a summer on the weekend to a free outing to show them a good time during the associate's time off? The firm expects that associates have some incentive to waste hours of their own day to entertain summers for the good of the firm? Associates aren't suppose to double as a concierge service. Sorry.
FAIL. S&C. FAIL.
I can confirm that the actual number of layoffs is closer to [Restatement] 90.
Take a look at Davis Polk's numbers that were reported by another ATL tipster back in March:
"Attorney count at DPW once was over 830 (Wikipedia for last year it's 819). Now it's about 800. In [these] times nobody leaves voluntarily... Most people have an end date March 31, but it looks like DPW will stagger this in order to make the departures more friendly."
Now go to http://dpw.com/attysearch/atty.search2.jsp and then search for all partners. You get 166 matches. Then search for just associates and you get 467 matches. Keep doing it for all the other titles (counsel, law clerks, senior counsel) and you end up with 768 total. 51 less attorneys since last year.
Subway. Eat fresh!!!
This post is complete BS. There have been NO layoffs at S&C. Sure, maybe a few weak associates were let go, but nothing more than that. The firm is booming.
The SkaddenDC joke got old a while ago, but I guess it is a good way for an S&C associate to try and deflect criticism away from S&C
Gimme back that filet-o-fish
Gimme that fish
Gimme back that filet-o-fish
Gimme that fish
What if it was you
hanging up on this wall?
If you were in that sandwich
you wouldn’t be laughing at all!
*Knock on door*
"So, hey, a bunch of us associates are going to walk around Battery Park this afternoon, so why don't you ask around if any other summers want to come."
LMAO, 11!
FIVE DOLLA,
FIVE DOLLA,
FIVE DOLLA HONG-DONGS!
6 and 8 are either idiots or noobs...PE and RS90 is an ongoing joke in the comments -- 4 is freaking hilarious, not an entitled 1L...but hey, at least you didn't need to have facts or understanding before your criticized -- you're so cool!
Why shouldn't the firm look to reduce costs in this economy? Even if they have the cash to spend, it looks bad to clients to have the free-spending practices of the past while so many clients are cutting back, getting lais off etc. Seems like a well-balanced plan to me. (And no, I am not affiliated with the firm.)
Only an S&C summer would "appreciate" being invited on a weekend to a free concert by associates.
Everybody else would act like they appreciate the invite whilst thinking about how to best fabricate a story about family visiting without showing a lack of interest in the firm. And then show up at the same concert shitsmashed on Mickey's Ice.
If an S&C summer can't figure out what to do with a weekend of free time in NYC without help from the firm, then ... well... it's a perfect match. The rest is history.
"2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese..."
SkaddenDC is doing layoffs?
I thought they were one of the strong ones.
Burger King prestige.
S&C has been exposed for the TTT operation that it is -- not only by being so damn cheap, but being shady about layoffs.
Dear SAs: Enjoy your Whoppers this summer!
Burger King prestige.
Only an S&C summer would "appreciate" being invited on a weekend to a free concert by associates.
Everybody else would act like they appreciate the invite whilst thinking about how to best fabricate a story about family visiting without showing a lack of interest in the firm. And then show up at the same concert shitsmashed on Mickey's Ice.
If an S&C summer can't figure out what to do with a weekend of free time in NYC without help from the firm, then ... well... it's a perfect match. The rest is history.
Whoppers are freakin' awesome!
I hate to be a grammar snob, but it really bugs me when people (16) incorrectly use "less" instead of "fewer" and vice versa.
Super size? Uh we have a pricing limit son.
26 is spot on. It's not just about the money. When the firm is laying off associates, and clients are having layoffs as well, a lavish summer program is just in bad taste.
We also recommend familiarizing Summer Associates with other potential revenue streams like:
- plasma donation
- selling stuff on eBay
- searching underneath sofa cushions for bus fare
- collecting empty beer cans at Pier 17
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yeah like I'm going to take MY time -- when I'm probably about to get laid off -- to do some FREE activity with a law student? Sounds great. . .
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Whoever came up with this crap should be fired. I get it that you don't care if they accept the offers or not (1 less person to lay off), but don't just start throwing stupid stuff like this around, it makes you look REALLY bad.
"Take 'em to BK," "Go on a walk in the park"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
40% no/cold offers are an unstated fringe benefit.
Meh, firing some weak performers does not upset me all that much -- these people would have left anyway if the economy wasn't in a permanent nose-dive. At least S&C is not ruining the careers of the very people they recruited last year by revoking -- ughh, I mean, deferring -- their offers.
When the dust settles and the economy recovers in 2015, S&C will still be remembered for keeping their promises to incoming associates. The lesser firms, on the other hand, will be remembered for ruining the careers of young, eager law graduates, who will never have the chance to work at a biglaw firm.
Do you know how depressing it is when you busted your ass, had 10+ offers from biglaw firms, and end up graduating with nothing more than a mythical January start date? Who here actually believes I will start in January? "For seriously, you guys".
"When the clock strikes half past 6, babe
Time to head for golden lights
It's a good time for the great taste -- dinner!
At McDonald's, it's Mac Tonight
Come on, make it Mac Tonight!"
Did anyone notice that the S&C's tipster's grammar was terrible?
What? They didn't suggest Gray's Papaya? Maybe it was too pricey
Is anyone else wondering why the S&C tipster's grammar was terrible?
"When the clock strikes half past 6, babe
Time to head for golden lights
It's a good time for the great taste -- dinner!
At McDonald's, it's Mac Tonight
Come on, make it Mac Tonight!"
I really think the people who post on these boards are the most spoiled people on the face of the earth. I wonder if you realize the summer budget at some firms lower market firms is closer to $50, or even $0?
I am going to be very conservative with my summer associate allowance. I will only take attractive female summers out to lunch/dinner and then I will only take them to Gray's Papaya where the recession buster still lives. Fuck the other summer associates. They can eat the crumbs off the cafeteria floor for all I care.
Signed, Associate who has been saddled with babysitting duties this summer and only has a $500.00 allowance.
I really think the people who post on these boards are the most spoiled people on the face of the earth. I wonder if you realize the summer budget at some firms lower market firms is closer to $50, or even $0?
Aren't you all glad you lived in the library and fought your way onto Law Review and through OCI to get that prestige job at Sullivan & Cromwell?
Enjoy the BK and subs, gunners.
WHERE'S THE BEEEEEEEEEF?
WHERE'S THE BEEEEEEEEEF?
I am actually pounding Rodge Cohen in the ass right now with a $5 footlong cold cut combo.
Aaron Charney
Wait, so the $500 is the amount they can spend on "hosting" summers for the entire summer? I thought that was the number of lunches you could have yourself - which would make it 8 lunches, 6 dinners or some combination.
$500 to pay for everyone is not much at all - that is 1 or 2 lunches near the limit with a few people. So, if two associates go out with 2 summer and each spends the limit ($60) for a total of $240, then each associate can "host" an event like that a total of two times over the entire summer.
My firm enforces the per-meal amounts pretty closely (we're in Chicago, and I think it's $40 or $45), but it's $100 for dinner and they don't get pissy about the number of times that you do it at all. I think that they realize that the point of a program like that is to socialize with the summers and make it more likely that they will accept their offers and return to the firm and make the firm a bunch of money.
I always knew that S&C was cheap and treated its associates like shit, but this is just absurd. PPP still is astronomically high and could have taken a hit of a few 100k (it's not like S&C is losing a lot of partners as laterals).
It seriously sounds like the incentive to work there and bill crazy hours is gone. Can you imagine being a first year and getting a "bonus" check for something like $250 after taxes? What's the point? I imagine that this WILL hurt them when things are busier and you need people to work on all these deals.
Maybe S&C is trying to make the lunch options more appealing to minority students.
Let's see.... S&C has about 350-400 some associates... so that's about $200000 in summer lunches divided by 60 = 3300 lunches, or about 24-30 lunches per summer. Sounds like plenty.
The $60 is a little cheap compared to prior years though.
S&C = the definition of TTT
This firm's reputation is done for.
These comments are making me hungry.
This would never happen in Texas
I would gladly take out a hot summer associate chick as long as you ease up on the rules about not banging the summer associates.
lol at S&C associates.
I hope the prestige points you earned by accepting S&C's offer is enough to buy a time machine, travel back to law school, work half as hard, get an offer at Skadden and PROFIT.
LULZ
At my law firm, Burger & King, we have an unlimited supply of chicken fries for summer associates.
56's numbers make sense at first, until you realize it means maxing out all associate lunches...many associates won't take out summers or won't spend the maximum... still, the 24-30 lunches is not enough if you consider a 10 week program -- that's 50 lunches needed, and 20-26 more lunches SA's at other firms will be getting (assuming maximum utilization which i have already said is probably a false assumption).
54, S&C still pays you in PrestigePoints, which are very valuable and redeemable for extra boosts of self-esteem.
You don't seem to be aware that working on a multibillion dollar deal is very prestigious, even if you're the 15th associate working on it, making conforming changes from singular to plural.
hot summer associate chicks? right.
63, by using words like "not enough" and "lunches needed" you've just shown yourself to be a grade-A entitled douche. You'll fit in perfectly at S&C though.
Wow. Why does the bottom 10% of a firm feel the entitlement to a "laid off" label as opposed to being fired for performance (you were the worst 10% and your performance now does not meet the new minimum standards of the, now smaller, more exclusive firm). If skin is this thin, no wonder "go hang a shingle" is not being taken seriously by the laid off.
i'm sure the "hot summer associate chicks" are interested in banging pudgy, balding, midlevel associates who are running scared over the prospect over getting laid off out of their appreciation for a meal that said pudgy associate did not even pay for.
More people than usual bit on the Restatement 90 -- I love that schtick.
How long until someone comes up with a schtick that insults the Restatement 90 posters in a repetitive way just to laugh at the reaction out of the people that are in on the joke? That would blow my mind. So many layers of comedy.
As usual, Thompson Hine takes the cake for being cheap and shitty to people. What I've heard from a couple partners in my office is that the firm will have sandwich trays brought in for "group lunches" a few times over the summer.
Very Impressive.
I guess slashing everyone's pay and the massive stealth layoffs, and announced layoffs, weren't enough... now we get to try and pretend to be BigLaw and impress SA's by giving them little pieces of Jimmy John sandwiches that they didn't even get to pick the toppings on.
Thompson Hine is a crap firm and you cannot trust what the partners tell you.
THOMPSON HINE - Enjoy your shitty sandwich and paycut! Now get back to work, asshole!
Proposal to the S&C associates:
Contrary to the recruiting office's theories, lots of us have a ton of friends in NYC this summer. Most of us have summer jobs at NYC law firms, right? I'm living with friends. So, we can entertain ourselves. In fact, we'd much prefer it, because then we can hang out without worrying about getting too drunk.
But if you ask us to do something on the weekend, we'll feel like we have to accept because otherwise it shows that we're not psyched on the firm or something like that. And honestly, we just don't want to waste a beautiful Sunday going to a work function. We'd rather go out to the beach with our friends.
And we know that you don't want to go either. One hopes that you have spouses/sig-others/friends of your own that you'd much rather be hanging out with outside of work than some stupid law students.
So here's the proposal: you don't ask us to these "free" events on weekends. This way, we don't have to say "yes", and you don't have to go, and everyone wins.
As usual, Thompson Hine takes the cake for being cheap and shitty to people. What I've heard from a couple partners in my office is that the firm will have sandwich trays brought in for "group lunches" a few times over the summer.
Very Impressive.
I guess slashing everyone's pay and the massive stealth layoffs, and announced layoffs, weren't enough... now we get to try and pretend to be BigLaw and impress SA's by giving them little pieces of Jimmy John sandwiches that they didn't even get to pick the toppings on.
Thompson Hine is a crap firm and you cannot trust what the partners tell you.
THOMPSON HINE - Enjoy your shitty sandwich and paycut! Now get back to work, asshole!
Anyone know the summer program expense guidelines for EAPD?
The thing I can't stand is the excuse that cutbacks to associate/SA perks are being done in light of the plight of our poor clients.
Everyone--including clients--knows that the cost of the summer associate program comes out of the partners' profits, not client fees. The money saved by taking a summer associate on a Staten Island Ferry "cruise" isn't helping any clients. It's simply going into Rodge Cohen's bank account.
Now, I think it's a legitimate business reason to reduce the lavishness when partners are making less money. But don't insult my intelligence by saying it's because of the clients.
(1) Perhaps ATL should have a "read me before you post" FAQ (just to let noobs know about that some posts are actually ongoing jokes, and before you call a poster an idiot, make sure she's not joking). The only think more tiresome than the Restatement 90 jokes are the "you're so stupid; promissory estoppel doesn't apply here" replies.
(2) I agree with 47 -- the budget at some firms is lower, and summers at BigLaw are spoiled. But that said, S&C's response ("take your summer to battery park" "buy them Burger King") is truly laughable. There's nothing wrong with S&C saying "The economy sucks. We're cutting back on fringe benefits with the summer program -- for the summers and for you, bloodsucking associates. So instead of going to a three course sitdown lunch at a midtown restaurant, get quick bites with the summers or have working lunches. Instead of rock-n-rolling all night and partying ev-er-y day and expecting the firm to pay for you and the summer, you don't get to do that. If you want to hang with the summers, great. If you want the firm to pay for it, here's your limit. Meanwhile, we'll make sure there are plenty of reasonable, interesting summer activities sponsored by the firm for all."
(3) Yes, not honoring commitments to incoming first-years is horrible, but that doesn't reflect upon your ability to be an attorney. Stealth economic firings under the guise of incompetence does. Are these attorneys REALLY bad attorneys, or are they just lower billers, or been matched in groups or with partners where they don't get along. In general, firms don't fire attorneys for bad performance. Maybe they don't make partner, but they rarely get fired. So a dismissal "for cause" could wreck someone's career. And if S&C are dismissing 10% of their attorneys "for cause," if I were their client, I would be REALLY concerned about their personnel judgment. If these attorneys worked on my file, I'd want an audit and perhaps a refund. I'd have little confidence in the judgment of the remainder of the attorneys, particularly if my attorney is on the hiring committee. If you just call them economic, you may have jittery clients, but at least you can say "we're all in this together."
#20, you are right and wrong.
Yes the firm is booming. Yes the firm also laid off a significant number of associates.
Blame partner greed.
Evan Chesler would never work at S&C. $60 for lunch? The man snacks on $100 bills. The man is an intellectual powerhouse people!!!!!!!
Evan Chesler would never work at S&C. $60 for lunch? The man snacks on $100 bills. The man is an intellectual powerhouse people!!!!!!!
Evan Chesler would never work at S&C. $60 for lunch? The man snacks on $100 bills. The man is an intellectual powerhouse people!!!!!!!
Evan Chesler would never work at S&C. $60 for lunch? The man snacks on $100 bills. The man is an intellectual powerhouse people!!!!!!!
Evan Chesler would never work at S&C. $60 for lunch? The man snacks on $100 bills. The man is an intellectual powerhouse people!!!!!!!
Evan Chesler would never work at S&C. $60 for lunch? The man snacks on $100 bills. The man is an intellectual powerhouse people!!!!!!!
Evan Chesler would never work at S&C. $60 for lunch? The man snacks on $100 bills. The man is an intellectual powerhouse people!!!!!!!
77-83,
Sorry, I missed what you were saying. Could you repeat that for us?
I heard Foley & Lardner is stealth laying off of staff. First they did technology and now other admin.
Skadden is nothing but a bunch of bro's. I'll take getting laid off by S&C any day before I hang out w/ a bunch of over-the-hill frat boys. And since when do you call getting a 1 year "vacation" (more like we can't afford to keep you around so we will pay 1/3 of your salary not to have you here) profiting?
Subway is on the list???
5 dollar foot longggggggggggggggggggs
75 - too long. didn't read.
60- there are rules about not banging summer associates? :( there goes the last chance of fun this summer...at least at work.
-girl S&C SA :(
75 - Shut up.
77-83,
Holy shit, you douchebag
S&C is offering to its summers free penile implants!
48 -
"They can eat the crumbs off the cafeteria floor for all I care. Signed, Associate "
Be careful 48 - many years ago S&C's cafeteria / dining room showed up on the NYT list of closed food establishments for either rodents or roaches.
Skadden is nothing but a bunch of bro's. I'll take getting laid off by S&C any day before I hang out w/ a bunch of over-the-hill frat boys. And since when do you call getting a 1 year "vacation" (more like we can't afford to keep you around so we will pay 1/3 of your salary not to have you here) profiting?
72 - Your not an asshole, your an ass ache
Can you even get a lap dance for $80?
I would rather be eaten by Evan Chesler than hang out with summer associates on the weekend.
It appears that partners and associates at my peer firm Sullivan & Cromwell will be eating bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwiches with their associates while my firm continues to treat them with the prestige and respect due to any person who is to work at my firm.
Quit revealing that the
Evan here. In Asia, you can get happy ending for $80.
Quit revealing that the PE/Sect.90 posts are a joke... you're ruining it for the 99% of the people here who like to laugh at the 1% of people who don't get it.
95,
"Your" is used as a possessive - e.g. "Your penis is small."
"You are" is signified by the contraction "You're" - e.g. "You're an idiot with a small penis."
Please update your TTT education to include this new fact (that you should have mastered in grade school).
54: "make it more likely that they will accept their offers and return to the firm and make the firm a bunch of money"
dearest 54, please don't overestimate how much money associates make for their firms. Associates (junior and mid) are basically just black hole sucking in millions of dollars in bloated salaries and spewing out ever-decreasing numbers of billable hours. It's not entirely their fault, of course, but let's not pretend that they're something they're not.
And these summers you're so worried about - the ones that are going to miss out on some good eatin', but will still pocket several thousand dollars a week - do you honestly believe that the harsh reality of BUYING ONE'S OWN LUNCH would be a dealbreaker for them?
Exactly who are these fabled summer associates that would turn down an offer after their summer program - you know, just on the chance that they might line something else up during their 3L year? Because they were only taken out to eat thirty times instead of ninety?
Summer Associate programs have become an absolute disgrace in terms of wasted dollars. If this horrific economic slowdown has been good for only one thing, it'll be the drastic reassessment of how much money is pissed away trying to impress and inebriate bunches of 24-year-old kids...
103,
What do you mean? Those inebriated 24 year olds are the future of our country! It is important to invest in them now, it is important to invest in the future!
95 - I see that 72 is giving that dildo a good workout today. No takers yet.
I am actually pounding Rodge Cohen in the ass right now with a $5 footlong cold cut combo.
Aaron Charney
Thank goodness I did my Summer last year...
105/95,
I wouldn't need a dildo if there were some guys around that didn't have such small penises like yours. Until then, definitely going with the dildo! It's bigger and can actually get hard. Sorry to hear about your erectile dysfunction, though.
Everything in Elie's post is true. They're bringing in a consultant - that's how I know. That's what the staff meeting the other day was all about. You have an interview with a consultant and they bring in efficiency experts. I had to interview for my own job.
How the fuck are firms spending millions of dollars on summer lunches when they revoked -- ughh, deferred -- offers to incoming associates? Maybe they should save the money to spend on their CURRENT obligations, instead of trying to impress people who don't even need to be impressed.
Fuck, this model could not be more broken. And yes, I am bitter as hell since my career has been ruined before I had a chance to start.
103, 54 here, I see all the numbers so I know exactly how much junior associates make for my firm. I am intimately familiar with how much of their time has to be written off, because I have matters where I have to do it. It's only with bullshit handwaving and expense allocation that any associate "loses" money for my firm.
And mid-levels losing money, under any accounting scheme? Bullshit. If a firm hasn't figured out how to make mid-levels profitable, then the firm won't be around for long.
A $500 total summer budget would be rejected at my firm the first time some fool proposed it. I know, because we decided not to have any formal limits this summer and just speak directly to those who were abusing the system. We rightly calculated that the bad press associated with this absurd nickel and diming is not at all worth the limited savings. We are saving money by having fewer and less lavish official events.
Smart associates and summer associates have always understood the bargain. This alters it, and to think that summers and law students will forever accept being paid much less and getting far fewer perks, for the same kinds of sacrifices, is just stupid. S&C might get away with it for a little while, but not for that long.
96, $80?? Why be so spendy? Elie's mom will give you 'the works" for two bucks and a tube of Fixodent.
I will be working in the Battery Park area from May to August, and would like some restaurant recommendations. It looks I will be on a tight budget, so bargains only please. I don't like curry, so no Indian food. Serious responses only. Thanks.
108 - I wouldn't bother waiting for the larger ones either, until you change that attitude, but at least the dildo turned out to be a better investment than your education. TH must be a very compassionate firm to keep fat such as you around.
All of these "prestigious" NYC firms (i.e. S&C) are complete jokes. They rose when Wall Street was playing around with fake money and are now burning. They offer no work/life balance, little-to-no prospect of making partner and absurdly obnoxious colleagues.
The only thing they had going for them was their Vault ranking and the over-the-top ridiculousness of their summer programs. Now, maybe they still have that Vault ranking. Maybe not.
113: Welcome to the neighborhood! There are many good "bargain" eateries near Battery Park. In fact, you could probably just use the "Quick Bites" list above as a guide. Happy eating!
Just kidding, Elie. This is actually a good story.
-112
If 10% of s&c's associates are bad, the first people s&c needs to fire are the law school recruiting captains -- apparently they suck at their jobs if they're bringing in 10% crappy new hires!
or perhaps s&c should rethink their entire model and recruit more from fordham -- apparently at least 10% of the top quarter from columbia, hls, etc suck!
yea, I'm sure associates want to spend their precious free weekends hanging out with us summer associates about as much as we want to hang out with them. I also imagine pretty much everyone has at least a couple of friends in New York, so we're ok to entertain ourselves.
i for one look forward to making friends with as many of the summer associates as possible. i think that it is a great idea to make them feel welcome to the firm and the city. one of my ideas is to make sure that they follow my twitter updates so they know what it is going on during the summer weekends. the more the merrier as i always say!
Small doesn't cover it. I'm a prostitute that 105/95 paid for sex... his penis was 2 inches long and all he did was keep bursting into tears and wanting to talk about his mother.
When do the new Vault rankings come out?
Someone should probably let S&C know that Pita Grill isn't glatt, or any other kind of kosher. They probably mean Pita Express.
121,
Hehehe, that's funny, but I don't know if it is worth the joke to suggest you had sex with that guy. Even prostitutes have some standards...
-108
Who cares about Sullivan & Cromwell? What about Sullivan & Worcester?
120,
I am glad someone else is on my side. I have already developed my summer activity schedule here. I have invited two people to sign up and join me in each weekend activity. That Twitter thing is brilliant...mind if I steal it? These summers will surely be very interested in everything I do! In fact, I am thinking about holding sleepovers every friday night!
Someone should probably let S&C know that Pita Grill isn't glatt, or any other kind of kosher. They probably mean Pita Express.
89, good try, but nobody's taking the bait. I'm shocked, given how many people here fall for way less believable schticks like the section 90 crap.
Someone should probably let S&C know that Pita Grill isn't glatt, or any other kind of kosher. They probably mean Pita Express.
ROFL 73
FWIW, S&C's main client (not sure if this is still true), Goldman, has routinely laid off the bottom 10% of its employees in good years, and is now laying off more. Goldman doesn't care that they draw the most talented people to begin with, they believe in firing the bottom 10% of the top 1%-- maybe they have passed this institutional strategy over to S&C.
105 - I volunteered to take one for the team but changed my mind because 72 has the nastiest gash that reeked of day old funk. I left a few bucks out of sympathy for the dildo.
Why does every post about S&C bring out the homos and dildo toting trannys from the meatpacking district?
(1) Perhaps ATL should have a "read me before you post" FAQ (just to let noobs know about that some posts are actually ongoing jokes, and before you call a poster an idiot, make sure she's not joking). The only think more tiresome than the Restatement 90 jokes are the "you're so stupid; promissory estoppel doesn't apply here" replies.
(2) I agree with 47 -- the budget at some firms is lower, and summers at BigLaw are spoiled. But that said, S&C's response ("take your summer to battery park" "buy them Burger King") is truly laughable. There's nothing wrong with S&C saying "The economy sucks. We're cutting back on fringe benefits with the summer program -- for the summers and for you, bloodsucking associates. So instead of going to a three course sitdown lunch at a midtown restaurant, get quick bites with the summers or have working lunches. Instead of rock-n-rolling all night and partying ev-er-y day and expecting the firm to pay for you and the summer, you don't get to do that. If you want to hang with the summers, great. If you want the firm to pay for it, here's your limit. Meanwhile, we'll make sure there are plenty of reasonable, interesting summer activities sponsored by the firm for all."
(3) Yes, not honoring commitments to incoming first-years is horrible, but that doesn't reflect upon your ability to be an attorney. Stealth economic firings under the guise of incompetence does. Are these attorneys REALLY bad attorneys, or are they just lower billers, or been matched in groups or with partners where they don't get along. In general, firms don't fire attorneys for bad performance. Maybe they don't make partner, but they rarely get fired. So a dismissal "for cause" could wreck someone's career. And if S&C are dismissing 10% of their attorneys "for cause," if I were their client, I would be REALLY concerned about their personnel judgment. If these attorneys worked on my file, I'd want an audit and perhaps a refund. I'd have little confidence in the judgment of the remainder of the attorneys, particularly if my attorney is on the hiring committee. If you just call them economic, you may have jittery clients, but at least you can say "we're all in this together."
126: Thanks!
--120
122- new vault in august i believe
Why would such a "top" firm hire such a high percentage of poor associates? What's their criteria?
Must be a TTT firm.
Restatement 90 meme = bigger than rick rolling and bel airing combined.
Don't estop now....keep it up kids.
133,
Some people don't have the personality, intellect or appearance to attract sexual partners. So, working for a lawfirm is all they have to try and get laid. For them, any discussion of trouble at lawfirms is a threat to their pitiful ability to get laid, so they lash out with sexual frustration.
Why this is, I have no idea. I do feel sad for them, though. The best thing is to ignore them. Just assume that any discussion or comment will cause them to say something showing their intense fear of (i) women; (ii) masturbation; and (iii) homosexuals.
Again, think of the upbringing that causes someone to behave in such a fashion. The best response is to feel pity for them and ignore.
NY in summer: "extraordinary number of...parades". Who KNEW? All in "open space" no less, just the way I like me parades!
Douche!
I heard that Cravath is replacing their coffee machines with half off coupons to the starbucks in the lobby.
35 -
I think i love you. (even more if you're also 102).
my pet peeve is people who say "between you and i."
"utilize"?
winston has been doing stealth and it's unbelievable that it's gotten no press. they're a bunch of douchebags and it's going to come back and bite them in the ass.
I am relieved to know that a "scenic" ride on the Staten Island Ferry is "an acceptable form of entertainment." I wasn't sure about that until S&C cleared that up for me.
Now if I could only get figure out how those ferry rides are "free".
Heh, their list is out of date. Starwich is long gone.
132 - The attempt is appreciated. If the miserable attitude of 72 isn't a complete turn off the rest is. God bless Thompson Hine for keeping this dead weight. What true compassion.
105
This is why Locke Lord is poised to become a V10 firm.
133 - To entice you out of the closet.
I would never work at such a TTT.
- Rising Touro 2L
Who wants to bet that this isn't a joke, perhaps as a big "Fuck You" to ATL for being so mean to S&C lately?
I would rather pound a horny CWT NY 05 female associate in her 2 hole than some freakish creature of the night from S&C.
Does anyone think that with the return of the small community bank will come the return of the small community law firm? Clearly, Wall Street's heyday is over. Will this be the case for Big Law as well?
That list of places to eat must be old. Mangia on Wall Street shut down in the middle of the night a few months ago.
Cry me a river. Only 60 dollars for lunch. Boo hoo. Come on over to in-house. No promotions, no salary increases, no bonus to get yourself to even remotely close to market compensation, not even free sodas and just be glad you still got a job.
- Unsympathetic in-house lawyer
What's truly appalling is that there are better places in the Financial District to eat out on a budget that aren't on that list. Al-Fanoose, anyone?
Or for that matter, Grimaldi's pizza and the Brooklyn Ice Cream factory are right over the Brooklyn Bridge, and a great way to take a lunch on a beautiful early summer day. (Order the pizza for takeout when you are halfway across the bridge and eat it on the waterfront.)
I'm at another V10 firm with a more generous summer program. But I'm still not very excited about it this year. The events are still going to be really scaled back and probably not that fun. The summers are also probably going to be really on-edge and not that fun.
So let's analyze this for a minute: That Rodge Cohen guy (Managing Partner of S&C) is telling the world that Wall Street is well as it has always been and then he is hailed as a business lawyer/ deal do-er of the year... while at the same time his firm is tanking and engaging in stealth layoffs and cheaping out on associate bonuses, etc... ? The guy clearly can't run the firm so how come he's so lauded and listened to ?
With $250,000 in student loan debt, no job, and no hot summer associate to bang, I would rather go to Salusa Secundus with its insanely high mortality rate rather than contend with you S&C whiners.
The only things more prestigious than working with a bunch of spoiled douche bags in New York are my balls.
couple of guys in my high school used to be asked not to spend more than $500 for the summer all the time, it was no big deal.
Working for the government is awesome! We leave at 4:30 EVERY DAY, pay is lower but still decent, plus on-site subsidized daycare, and a student loan repayment program.
And the job security can't be beat.
-Left BigLaw and Never Looked Back
$500 per summer? I would cut it to $100 per summer. Let those spoiled brats prove their worth and get a job so we don't have to fire their lazy ass. S&C RULES!!!!!
This is the result of doing loads of ponzi bullshit for the likes of Lehman, Citibank, Merril, Bear etc.
Now its over.
The worst is yet to come.
41: you need to wise up. buying into the idea that only weak performers get the cut is just plain ignorant. There's a lot at work behind the scenes at the Machine.
do you even know how summers get job offers? It's like wheeling and dealing just like our criminal justice system where you say my client will plead to this misdemeanor if you drop these two lesser misdemeanors (trust me, I did criminal law in legal clinic during law school).
In BigLaw, we sit in a room and say well, "we need someone from X school," or "someone who fits X category," or "this person with top grades from X school only got okay reviews but we have to take him or else X school will bump us back on the OCI calendar but if we have to take him or her we can't take that guy over there from this regional school even though people liked him", or "this guy is from Harvard, we have to take him even though he was a total pompous ass" or "this partner said he would take this summer under his wing and give him billables so that guy's set", "oh and this is so and so's daughter, we have to take her so we can't take this guy who did good work but nobody is speaking out for him", etc. Do you really think we say, "the best summer associates get offers and the lowest performers shouldn't?" I should know. I spent a lot of time on recruiting committees.
Alot of this same b.s. goes on when laying off associates so don't sit there and think it really is just the lowest performers. And how are you going to feel if only part of your class gets to start but YOU don't. Are you just going to say, meh, well, I was one of the lowest performers?
politics, son, politics.
www.laidoffdiary.wordpress.com
41: you need to wise up. buying into the idea that only weak performers get the cut is just plain ignorant. There's a lot at work behind the scenes at the Machine.
do you even know how summers get job offers? It's like wheeling and dealing just like our criminal justice system where you say my client will plead to this misdemeanor if you drop these two lesser misdemeanors (trust me, I did criminal law in legal clinic during law school).
In BigLaw, we sit in a room and say well, "we need someone from X school," or "someone who fits X category," or "this person with top grades from X school only got okay reviews but we have to take him or else X school will bump us back on the OCI calendar but if we have to take him or her we can't take that guy over there from this regional school even though people liked him", or "this guy is from Harvard, we have to take him even though he was a total pompous ass" or "this partner said he would take this summer under his wing and give him billables so that guy's set", "oh and this is so and so's daughter, we have to take her so we can't take this guy who did good work but nobody is speaking out for him", etc. Do you really think we say, "the best summer associates get offers and the lowest performers shouldn't?" I should know. I spent a lot of time on recruiting committees.
Alot of this same b.s. goes on when laying off associates so don't sit there and think it really is just the lowest performers. And how are you going to feel if only part of your class gets to start but YOU don't. Are you just going to say, meh, well, I was one of the lowest performers?
politics, son, politics.
www.laidoffdiary.wordpress.com
S&C people also recognize that Wall Street has changed forever. The financial institutions that proudly decorate S&C's list of clients are either on the verge of bankruptcy or some other break-up (like some 800lbs insurance gorillas) or will stop doing major securities underwriting work. It would be disingenuine to claim that s&c is over and done, but it would face some hard times to justify the line "you will pay us $10 million for an IPO, flat, just for the sheer power of our name". Will it re-emerge? yes. Will it reinvent itself? yes. Will it be easy? I don't know....
I can confirm that S&C doesn't pay for tax LLMs, but that's because the degree is a joke compared to the work you'd do in the group. S&C may be run by a bunch of bastards, but it sure beats the alternatives.
By contrast, my new firm (which I'm quitting because it *really* stinks) is docking my pay because I asked for a copy of the tax code to refer to. I kid you not. My TTT firm doesn't want to give tax lawyers the frigging tax code.
Clients, how much do you want to pay for advice from lawyers who don't have a single copy of the frigging code and regs in their office? Anyone?
The reason this policy is bad business is that every associate has the same limit. We all know that only a handful of S&C associates are the real recruiters who give a damn AND have a good personality. Those folks will only do few outings with such a small busget. Is that what you want? To limit the summers' interaction with the "Winner" associates. Really stupid.
73:
I think EAPD cancelled their summer program last month.
168
Use Lexis/Nexis. It has the Code and the Regs online. Bill the client. If they're paying attention, they'll demand the firm provide you with the hard copy and yearly updates as necessary.
May I suggest Matthew Bender treatises on tax, which are also available on Lexis/Nexis.
If you really want to annoy your firm, bill the online search to personal time or personal development.
Alternatively, Google the Code and the Regulations which can be found at Cornell.
This is sad, "S&C" now stands for "Subway and Chipotle" How pathetic.
10% layoffs? A summer lunch at Subway? S&C must be hurting bad.
We might be looking at a Thelen situation here.
10% layoffs? A summer lunch at Subway? S&C must be hurting bad.
We might be looking at a Thelen situation here.
A "Thelen situation" - s&c??? no effin way!!!!! this is just a stupid comment.
The only things more prestigious than working with a bunch of spoiled douche bags in New York are my balls.
$500 for an associate to entertain at a ball game? Sounds like Seattle or Washington on a weekday night.
This misguided idea that you have to cut back during a recession is what keeps the recession going longer. By the firm spending less, it is just putting more businesses out of business and more people into unemployment. The patriotic thing to do would be to spend even more during the tougher economic times.
178 spender=DemocRAT
WHY ISNT ANYONE TALKING ABOUT THE LAYOFFS AT WHITE & CASE
Is there really a policy at these firms about not hooking up with the summer associates?
Latham will be doing another cut of about 10% more. Latham NY 2006 class is too large and litigation is getting slow with too many sub-midlevels. Don't know when, but must be before summers come in.
145 - The Staten Island ferry does not cost anything to ride. That's how it is free. HTH.
As I have been telling you fuctards for the past six months...BIGLAW needs to rightsize.
30% or so total headcount reductions are what is needed, and associate pay needs to be reduced modestly to say 125K to start at the high end.
Good luck. There is a lot of blood yet to be spilled. I just wish management would do the right thing, the COURAGEOUS thing, and cut the salaries NOW before firms implode.
Everyone needs to adjust to the reality that BigLaw firms are still trying to figure out what's happening to them, and are in scramble mode. As quarterly profit numbers come in for 2009, and turn out to be less than even their lowered expectations, they react again, still without a clear sense of where things are likely to be by year end, or beyond. Significant layoffs of additional associates seem likely, along with contractions at the partnership level and spin offs of satellite offices by firms which have expanded too aggressively. At some point, things will begin to stabilize, but probably not before well into next year.
20, et. al. have Stockholm Syndrome. S&C is poisonous -- now everyone knows it. I'm so glad their shit is out in the street for all to see. S&C's approach = FAIL. By cutting perks (even ones as odious as extravagant summer lunches) S&C is signaling that it does not believe its associates are worth what its peers are willing to pay. And the stealth layoffs? TTT douchebaggery of epic proportions. But it is business as usual for the nasty partners and boot-licking senior associates to set up their subordinates (especially those who refuse to be treated like toilet paper) to take the fall. Vile! And things will only get worse. Joe Shenker's God in Principle is $ and he'll nickel and dime the associates to within an inch of their lives.
--Former S&C associate who managed to escape
The worst part about the original post is: "They would rather destroy your ... self-esteem ..."
I would give the following advice to anyone who is or will become a junior associate at S&C. Do yourself a huge favor and don't in any way let your self-esteem be determined by how well you do there. Even if you're spending your days and nights there.
My guess is that most associates who left (back when law firms were hiring) would say they waited too long to leave. Of those who waited too long \, many of them probably did so because their self-esteem was tied to the place. Work your ass off there and do the best you can, but it's best to never go down that emotional road in the first place.
Don't you people realize that the economy is imploding? That explains these actions, nothing more.
S&C partners are forced to endure profits of only about $3 million each. How can they eat? And associates have the gall to demand bonuses and summers think they shouldn't have to eat at Burger King?
Until things stabilize and S&C partners are making double what Skadden partners make, 125 Broad is just going to have to make some sacrifices. Things are so bad that S&C partners only make about a $1 million more than ultra-leveraged Skadden. ONLY $ 1 MILLION MORE THAN SKADDEN!! And you demand perks, respectable lunches, bonuses? COME ON!!!
Last year S&C profits were down slightly from the best year ever. You're just going to have to make sacrifices until this injustice is corrected. And I am sick and tired of hearing about how in 2006 bonuses for associates were double than they are now even through the firm basically did the same in 2006 and 2008. THAT WAS TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!
You see, in 2006 other firms didn't low-ball bonuses and give S&C an excuse to follow along like a lap dog. That was an entirely different time, back when S&C was a compensation leader, so it really has no bearing on today. It's not like S&C is blatantly fucking over its associates or anything, these are dire times. Didn't you hear?
Let me get this straight. They expect people to work all night and all weekend doing mindless nonsense, and then when you finally get a weekend off, you have to take summer associates around on "free" events like walking in the park? Is this babysitting camp or something? If I spend my first three weekends in a month doing horrible work I'm going to spend my free weekend with my family, not taking law students on "free" events. Amazing that they think anyone wants to help recruit people in an environment where people fluctuate between hating the firm, dreading layoffs and wishing they could work somewhere else.
Not that my friends there are actually happy. But I didn't realize how much everyone who works there hates S&C. This is rivaled only by Latham associates. Wow.
189, "Amazing that they think anyone wants to help recruit people in an environment where..."
Hello. What makes you think they really want any of the summers successfully recruited? They (as with all the biglaws) can't keep existing associates billing, they are stuck with incoming Sept. 2009 associates that they're trying to delay until Sept. 2010. Knowing they'll have to, in Sept. 2010, face the deferred associates, the last thing they want to face is another horde of associates from the prior summer coming in at the same time. Hence, the astonishing insult to suggest the summers be taken to Burger King. The restaurants on the list may serve their food hot but it means only one thing - cold offers.
The funny thing is that no matter how awful places like Latham and S&C are to work, all the law students who frequent this blog drool over them, and the threads about them get tons of comments. Meanwhile, other, more humane firms are constantly disparaged. Doesn't make much sense, huh?
188 - i know you think you are clever, but ppp are down some 30-40 percent at the big firms. The firms are "for profit" enterprises, and if there is only enough work for X associates, not X + Y, Y gotta go....
I only pray the managing partners show the foresight to cut as deeply as is needed. 400 lawyers in 2008 equals 300 lawyers in 2009, and the sooner we all realize that, the better.
Hey 166 - you couldn't cut it in Biglaw and got canned. Please spare us all of the "wisdom" you acquired on your accomplishment-free journey to the bottom. You lack ability and were therefore terminated when the time came to ax the worst performers. Politics had nothing to do with it. So stop deluding yourself and get back to that job search [hmmm, is there anything that you are qualified to do or is your father right?] as that severance won't last much longer.
Everything will work itself out. Firms that screw associates, like Sullivan, will find recruiting harder. They will get less-qualified associates, who will do lower-quality work. Clients seeking better work quality will look elsewhere.
I don't know if the S&C summer budget allows for potpourri, unless of course you make it from the leftover garnish from your lunch. Funny how ATL thinks they are the king snoops of stealth layoffs when so many have gone unmentioned on here. Feel free to post some of them people!
193: actually, profits are down 3.7 % per partner since 2007, which was the best year on record.
http://www.legalweek.com/Company/477/Navigation/18/Articles/1197281/Profits+dip+at+Sullivan,+Skadden+and+Davis+Polk.html
And how much did S&C profits rise between 2003 and 2007? 61 %. Here's the link: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202430308026
So let's see. Profits go up 61% in 5 years, then go down 3.7 % from the best year ever, and it's ok for the firm to ruin bonuses and the summer program? I don't know where you get the idea that S&C's profits are down 30 - 40 %, but it's way, way off.
180 - where? any more details?
194 needs to take to take 187's advice. Your entire self-image is clearly tied up in your Big Law identity. Anyone who got laid off "couldn't hack it?" I suppose that means you can and are "hacking it." Congratulations. Tell us, do you really believe "performance" is the only factor driving who gets laid off? Big firm lawyers don't play politics? Partners don't play favorites? Everything is a meritocracy? Are you really that deluded? I'll bet you think you're a "valued employee." You're probably a mid-level or senior associate who bills like a maniac, looks like death warmed up and has trouble maintaining meaningful relationships. You think the job will save you. Guess what? It won't. One day (and I hope its soon, please let it be soon!) you are going to choke on that smugness. Keep telling yourself only the bottom 10% got cut. Keep eating the shit your "colleagues" hand you with a knife and fork. Keep denigrating the associates who got laid off. I am confident you will get what's coming to you. It really is sad that so many otherwise smart people can have the wool pulled over their eyes so easily. This is why Big Law is so unbearable. Its full of "book smart" people who are not only divorced from reality but are trained to ignore basic human decency and are rewarded for being cruel. Its a toxic douchebag stew that produces Kool Aid drinking smug bastards like 194.
199.,that's not just Biglaw. Unfortunately there are people like that everywhere in every field.
35--No, you love being a grammar snob, you're just afraid others won't love you for it (142 should dispel that). Wear your snobbery proudly, like 102.
--143
200 -- People like that are especially prevalent in law. Not all just Big Law. Law in general. Whole field full of douchebags.
- a lawyer.
test
Each of the posters here is pathetic. You don't know the first thing about how to run a law firm, what clients or partners care about, and how to make partner yourself. Your comments make it painfully clear that you actually think that anyone cares about what you think. We don't. Good luck to all you dopes. You will need it.
thx