First to be not first.

These pretzels are making me firsty! Well actually they are making me second but that doesn't sound as good.

That is SOP even at the T-5 school I went to- if the student couldnt get a job they would hire them as some kind of research assistant until they did. Presto: 99% employment after graduation.

3 = Epic fail

Sincerely,
3

"At this point something, possibly an as yet undisclosed substance, really gets the better of this person's spelling...."

Elie, I love you buddy, but did you happen to see the kettle that I've misplaced?

I'm tired of people blaming their law school's career services. They may suck but people don't have jobs because the economy sucks, not because career services isn't any good. This nonsense happens at my law school too.

"At this point something, possibly an as yet undisclosed substance, really gets the better of this person's spelling...."

Elie, I love you buddy, but did you happen to see the kettle that I've misplaced?

CHEEKY
VERY BUTTCHEEKY, my friend.

If a law student is hired in the (Wake) Forest, does he make a sound?

Hey 7:

I think I found it. Is it black?

TIJUANA VAGINALOBSTER

3 = Epic fail

Sincerely,
3

Career Services totally sucked even before the economy went bad. Attorneys only end up working in law school career services offices because they couldn't hack it in the real legal market, thus they are uniquely unqualified to competently assist anyone else's career development.

I am about to do coke off my secretary's tits and then pound her in the ass. Does this make me prestigious?

Cleary 3rd Year

Yeah, and our career services office went out of their way to keep certain people from reporting their low salaries on our school's employment survey. It's really quite common. Nothing shocking here.

That's true 14, but in the past most people had jobs at this point. So the lesson is career services always sucks, people don't have jobs because the economy sucks.

WAKE FOREST belongs in the T-14 with the other ELITE schools.

-Wake Forest 2L

6. My mother taught me that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Hence ... I don't live in a house.
--Elie

I wonder if the student who wrote the email relied upon Wake Forest's ability to place him/her in a job upon graduation. . .maybe s/he has a proper equitable in pais claim?

I would like to speak frank about something that begs the question.

This student is a whiner and a douche bag. I'm also calling BS on someone hacking her e-mail account. She sent off a rant and then realized how bad it sounded and then made up a story about a hacker. First, you're at Wake Forest. A good school, but not good enough for you to rely on career services for a job. Career services sucks at most school that aren't top 20, everyone knows that. Work a little harder and network and find yourself a job instead of complaining. I go to WCL, ranked lower than Wake Forest, and still found myself a pretty nice firm job despite the bad economy, poor career services, and our mediocre ranking. Second, so what if career services is hiring graduates at the school? I think it's nice that they're helping students out who don't have jobs. It's also none of your business what they are or are not paying these graduates; if the graduates thought it was beneath them or paid too little, they didn't have to take the job. And certainly these jobs are not meant to be long-term; it's something nice in the interim while the graduates can look for other employment. Stop being a baby and go study for your exams.

Elie, would you like to share a piece of Blumpkin Pie with me?

Evan Chesler

In a letter received from the Dean,
He said legal jobs are quite lean.
"So for Christ's sake,
Don't come to Wake!
There's no future here to be seen."
- Another Trite Limerickist

This school is a certified TTT
And it's students fit in nicely
The Dean is out of touch
That letter was a bit much
At least it provides good limerick fodder for me

As an recent Wake Law grad I can say w/ abosolute certainty that 1) many, many, many people did not find jobs and still do not have them; 2) many people got hired into peon jobs by the law school. I'm willing to believe that this is the reason why on #2. I'm also willing to believe that the absurd tactics and sense of entitlement from the writer (that are indicative of the attitudes that many people at the law school possess) has something to do with #1

Anyone at CLS know if we have career services anymore? or have they been replaced by CALSOC?

If you think the first email was outrageous, you should see the ridiculous number of reply-all emails it generated - each one with a heightened level of d-baggery about how framing this girl was not a laughing matter and an incredibly serious honor code violation.

The email blames the incompetence of WF's career services office for failing to find jobs for incompetent law students.

I would add the word "FAIL" here but I am not a nerd and I don't play World of Warcraft.

Above The Limerick gets an A rating. Another Trite Limerists gets a B. All you other copycats get a D. Terrible limericks. Limericks have to flow.

"These experiences provide opportunities to finesse research skills and gain a deeper understanding of a practice area."

Dean Morant, that drivel will work on unsuspecting law students but you and I know better.

50 is not some magic number. Wake Forest is already considered a second tier law school.

I fail to see how providing employment to graduates is unethical. I also fail to see how this student thinks that Wake Forest is somehow unique in doing so. I further fail to see how this student somehow equates "employment" with "practicing law." Unless your school's bar pass rate is equal to or greater than your school's 9-month employment rate, your school is interpreting "employment" in a broader sense than "practicing law."

As a current Wake Forest 3L who looks at this whole situation with some humor, I can assure that the girl whose email address was used DID NOT write that email, and I'll give you several reasons why:
1. She already has a very nice job. A person with a job has no reason to write this email.
2. She has never worked in Career Services. For that matter, she's been out of town for the last week, and would have no opportunity to overhear any conversation.
3. She can put together a mistake-free, coherent sentence.
Not one person at Wake who read that email and knows the framed person thought for a second that she sent it. Kudos to you, Mystal, for not reporting names when names were not necessary.

Well played, 27.

As a current Wake Forest 3L who looks at this whole situation with some humor, I can assure that the girl whose email address was used DID NOT write that email, and I'll give you several reasons why:
1. She already has a very nice job. A person with a job has no reason to write this email.
2. She has never worked in Career Services. For that matter, she's been out of town for the last week, and would have no opportunity to overhear any conversation.
3. She can put together a mistake-free, coherent sentence.
Not one person at Wake who read that email and knows the framed person thought for a second that she sent it. Kudos to you, Mystal, for not reporting names when names were not necessary.

You are all idiots who will never be prestigious.

Skadden Secure

ps -- YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS

As a current Wake Forest 3L who looks at this whole situation with some humor, I can assure that the girl whose email address was used DID NOT write that email, and I'll give you several reasons why:
1. She already has a very nice job. A person with a job has no reason to write this email.
2. She has never worked in Career Services. For that matter, she's been out of town for the last week, and would have no opportunity to overhear any conversation.
3. She can put together a mistake-free, coherent sentence.
Not one person at Wake who read that email and knows the framed person thought for a second that she sent it. Kudos to you, Mystal, for not reporting names when names were not necessary.

very true 14.

a number of my unemployed classmates are likely going to work in my school's career services office. exactly who you'd want helping you get a job, right?

Dean Morant is a class act all the way around. I would believe him over a hyperventilating email any day of the week.

Is it more sad if Partner Emeritus is a real partner who's clearly lost any brains and sense he ever had?

Or a laid off lawyer or law student whose life revolves around keeping up this sad charade?

Sorry for the three posts, it kept timing out and telling me that it didn't post.

PE: kudos for keeping your recent posts short and sweet. You are enjoyable in small doses.

Meltdown students, MELTDOWN!!! Your finals will mean nothing in this job market. And this job market will seem like a walk in the park when we're forced to face the oncoming zombie infestation (swine flu my ass).

Also - since when does Elie point out other's spelling errors?

I think Wake Forest should put its out of work graduates chopping down the trees around the school at minimum wage. They can be more gainfully employed than sitting around on their fat asses and munching on Cheetos and complaining about a lack of jobs.

Wake ForesTTT

Check out the Symplicity website run by the wake law school. It has multiple job listings for apartment complexes seeking leasing consultants and even a high school english teacher! get real. I know everyone says you should not enter law school with dreams of making 250k a year but to graduate and be forced to be a leasing consultant for $10/hour? thats an absolute slap in the face. just drop the symplicity site altogether.

The problem is that employers realize there is a problem and starts reducing salaries and laying off associates. Yet, creditors don't care at all about the trouble someone faces in making their payments. last time I checked, a lawyer can't delcare bankruptcy and get out of paying a student loan. Wake, typical of all schools, continues to raise their tuition. 37k a year. give me a break. i want a refund.

MysTTTal, you should be ashamed of yourself. Drawing attention to this incident could only have adverse consequences for the innocent parties involved. Use your head for once. Sometimes I think you have the intelligence of a used tampon.

I would also like to comment on the substance of this story. It's true that many upcoming graduates are having trouble finding jobs. There is no reason, however, to take the frustrated out on the rest of us. It was your decision to go to law school. It is not my fault, or anyone else's that you couldn't cut it. Your frustration is meaningless and merely demonstrates your inherent character flaws. Work harder and make better choices.

Likewise, toilets like Wake Forest should be shut down in their attempts to hide graduates. It is not only in poor form, but quite dishonest. Wake Forest students are my no means "the cream of the crop." It is for that reason that the administration at Wake Forest should take the hit on the chin or improve its student body.

OINK OINK OINK

Que pasa?

You are all idiots who will never be prestigious.

Skadden Sidebar (praying i have a job to go back to)

ps -- YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS

34, 36, 38= the person who wrote the e-mail and is trying to cover her ass.

to the student who wrote the e-mail - grow up, stop blaming everyone else, learn what the real world is like and take some responsibility for your life. Poor me, poor me, pour me a drink!

to the student who wrote the e-mail - grow up, stop blaming everyone else, learn what the real world is like and take some responsibility for your life. Poor me, poor me, pour me a drink!

Instead of worrying about where his (her?) law school is ranked, why not worry about the overall quality of education he is getting, and whether he is pushing himself to be the best student (and future lawyer) he can be? It's dumb*sses like this who have their priorities all screwed up.

1, a, The girl either lied about sending the email,
making her a hypocrite (about so-called higher ethical standards),
or
b, Another student/faculty member hacked her to post a harangue about ethics, and is thus is a hypocrite.
or
c, Someone unaffiliated with the school hacked her email to sabotage the school.
D, none of the above (this is where you snarky ATL posters get to add speculation)

2, Elie's response at 19 is a lame attempt at humor

3, As a 3L with firm prospects for next year, I have no motivation to study for exams. Suggestions for motivation, anyone?

to the student who wrote the e-mail - grow up, stop blaming everyone else, learn what the real world is like and take some responsibility for your life. Poor me, poor me, pour me a drink!

Wake Forest to #190!

to the student who wrote the e-mail - grow up, stop blaming everyone else, learn what the real world is like and take some responsibility for your life. Poor me, poor me, pour me a drink!

Wake Forest has always had an abysmal career services office - friendly staff without a clue about what's going on. In fact, there is not one lawyer in that office, and never has been. Look around. Any reputable school will staff its career service office with at least one former practicing atty. I am a recent grad from WF who got my job despite, not with any assistance from, that joke of an office. Wake's ranking keeps plummeting, in no small part due to the incompetence of that office. Man up, Wake, and pay the $100K or whatever it would cost to get someone in there who knows what he/she is doing and, I promise, the dividends will accrue.

I am not an idiot.

I have never heard of this school. Is it in Texas?

I disagree with you 54 on how she should concentrate on learning in classes. Are you currently in law school?

Once you begin to practice you will never use any of that "knowledge" again. Everything you learn in law school classes can be far more quickly and easily learned in reading a short primer on the subject. The entire "case book" method is just a way to take up space and justify professors' jobs.

There's a reason that every class can be easily summed up in a 20 - 30 page outline. Law school is a scam. Even top schools that (at one time) could guarantee you a lot of money are scams insofar as they provide you no real education that's worth a damn. They suck up three years of your life where you could otherwise be developing real work experience.

Just my opinion though. I also agree you're right about how she needs to make sure she gets good grades.

HAS ANYONE HEARD THE LATEST ON JUDGE HALVERSON???

what makes you think you deserve a job and what makes you think that paying a professional placement agency will get you one? What resources do they have that your CSO doesn't . Puleeze!

As another Deac grad who got a 160 job IN SPITE of the Career Services office, I actually support this email.

The people in that office are useless. Every person I know who got an AmLaw 100 job from my class did so completely on their own without any assistance from Career Services. If you walk in and tell them you want to work somewhere other than Raleigh, Charlotte, or the Dash, they look at you like you're crazy.

The OCI facilities are a joke, everything is poorly done for events... it is all second rate.

Blake, I love ya buddy, but come on. Even if this email is nonsense, it is well past time to shake things up at OCS.

Wake Forest, home of the Asslobster.

Note to all law students, summer clerks, and associates: the fact that you can email everyone in your school or firm does not mean that you should. Next time you click "Reply All" or type "Everyone" into the to: box, just go ahead and stop there. Trust me. You'll be glad you did.

-The Sane Ones

Now now, hear me out for just a second here - don't you think Restatement (Second) 90 has excellent potential for application in this situation? It's time to go all equittable estoppel on the career services' ass

Wake's career services department has always been a joke. I graduated almost 10 years ago and it was pathetic even back then. They used to have a guy running the office who was a chain smoker who smelled like he just got back from a 3 whiskey lunch. He got fired when they discovered he was running his own website on the side, "selling" WFU's job listings to desperate law students from other schools, like an early precursor to LawCrossing or something. No joke. The current Career Services administration was brought in as a "breath of fresh air." Looks like it is time to open the windows again.

- Wake grad who got a job on his own, without any help from Career Services.

The problem at Wake Forest is that those who rule think of it as a local law school, the purpose of which is to produce attorneys to practice in local firms in North Carolina. This means small and large towns, not big out of state cities. WFU.

It is titled "Career Services" not "Career Placement." Chalk it up to lazy, rich students who have been enabled their entire life and don't know the meaning of doing anything for themselves, like paying their own tuition (thanks daddy!) or finding a job. I read the original of this email and not only were the grammatical errors that have been cleaned up in this version a joke for an actual law student but the truly hysterical suggestions that this "law student" made (also conveniently omitted, thanks for the bias ATL!) proves that this person has clearly lost their mind and is not a credible source.

It is titled "Career Services" not "Career Placement." Chalk it up to lazy, rich students who have been enabled their entire life and don't know the meaning of doing anything for themselves, like paying their own tuition (thanks daddy!) or finding a job. I read the original of this email and not only were the grammatical errors that have been cleaned up in this version a joke for an actual law student but the truly hysterical suggestions that this "law student" made (also conveniently omitted, thanks for the bias ATL!) prove that this person has clearly lost their mind and is not a credible source.

It is titled "Career Services" not "Career Placement." Chalk it up to lazy, rich students who have been enabled their entire life and don't know the meaning of doing anything for themselves, like paying their own tuition (thanks daddy!) or finding a job. I read the original of this email and not only were the grammatical errors that have been cleaned up in this version a joke for an actual law student but the truly hysterical suggestions that this "law student" made (also conveniently omitted, thanks for the bias ATL!) prove that this person has clearly lost their mind and is not a credible source.

Now that the law school bubble has burst it's time to revisit the "tiers" to make them more relevant to the current economy and legal market. Tier 1 is limited to the T14. Tier 2 is 15-25. 26-50 is TTT, 51-100 is "other", and anything lower should be closed immediately.

Well put, 14. It's not just law school, either. When I was an undergrad, the people who worked in academic advising were all these 35-year-old eternal Ph.D students. They always encouraged me to take fewer credit hours. If I had taken their advice, I'd probably still be at my undergrad school now...just like them.

Never, ever, take advice from someone who's "career" consists of sitting in an office giving advice to students. Do you want to end up like that?

Fugitive From Justice, as a current 3L at Wake, I need to say, from the heart, suck it!

@ 65 & 70

70 has it correct. Wake Forest is a nice (but $$) little law school for kids who couldn't get into UNC. Why anyone would go there who wasn't willing to work in Raleigh or Charlotte (or W-S or Greensboro or Asheville or Wilmington etc.) is beyond me, but I guess this is the same demographic that fills the Americans and Tulanes of the world, shelling out $$ for a long shot at DC or NYC. It's not the job of Wake CS to bring DC and NYC firms to you b/c that's just not the kind of school it is and you should've known that when you enrolled.

I'm sick and tired of law students (outside the T14) whining about career services. They're career counselors and not your personal talent agents. Grow up.

-Cardozo 2L Hack

What schools need to do is report how few graduates actually report employment status back. An 80% employment rate is meaningless when only 30% of the graduating class actually responded to the inquiry.

WEAK FOREST, nuf sed

Two points to clear up some things mentioned here:

I know many Wake 3Ls who are working in DC and NY next year, including at big firms and DOJ, so the school has to be doing something right.

Also, at Wake you can't pick up your cap and gown to graduate without filling out the career services employment survey, so we don't have a selection bias issue like you're positing.

FYI, "empathy" and race are now the primary criteria for selecting SCOTUS justices

Elie, you are a tool. This e-mail isn't crazy. Not everyone who decides not to keep his or her head down and STFU is crazy. Some people have the balls to confront other people for doing questionable things, and good for them. I sold my balls a long time ago, but I don't have anything against those who didn't.

scrubbing the toilets in the wake forest law library = why i went to law school

Hate to break it you all, but most law school (outside of the top 15) career service offices suck. It doesnt matter if you're #30 on the US News list or #100. In the end they focus the majority of their efforts on placing the best students in the class (ie, law review, top 10%) to the total exclusion of everyone else.

That Wake Forrest's Career Service Office would pad their stats is neither surprising or new. All schools do it.

To 81,

If by many, you mean 4

Fine, it's Career "Services" not Career "Placement" and they are counselors, not recruiters. But, shouldn't they provide a service and counsel then? My school's career services was just like everyone else's -- grads who couldn't get jobs. So they had no idea how to counsel someone on how to get a legal job. It was worse if you weren't going the tradtional firm or clerkship route. They were completely lost.

I made sure to point out everytime I was asked that I was still unemployed just to screw their statistics. I alos told Career Services to go away since they ahdn't helped me for 3 years, I doubt they could miraculously do anything now.

accurate salary reporting is the first step towards eliminating about 100-150 law schools. There is no reason why somebody with a 2.9 gpa and 153 lsat should be an attorney.

if we don't accept doctors (or even dentists) with those qualifications why do we accept creating thousands of new lawyers with them every year?

88, I totally agree with you. Every year, these terrible law schools crank out more J.D.s who can't even compose a decent brief. I have had students at a local T4 school intern at my firm, and their writing and logical skills were horrendous. Those lousy law schools need to stop taking money from and giving false hopes to people who can't cut it in law. Save the image of the legal profession, and protect the public too.

So all of these posts about top-whatever schools having effective career services departments?

Yeah... that is bullshit.

Career services dept at top schools are ALSO worthless. But here's the thing... at a school like that it doesn't matter.

I quickly discovered how utterly ridiculous these people are.

Firms come interview here because of the school... career services has ZERO impact. Complete waste of school funds.

exactly 90. The problem, if any, is funding the CSO to begin with. Schools would be better off hiring CSO people part time and shutting things down during the (many) dead zones. Harvard students don't get great jobs because of the talent and commitment of people in CSO -they get great jobs because of the rankings/reputation of the school. You could put those CSO folks at Wake or American or wherever and their honest employment numbers would barely move, if at all.

Law firms don't have time or the need to interview at every single school much less interview every student. The rankings heirarchy is imperfect but its the most reasonable way for firms to hire the majority of their first years. There is very little (good or bad) that someone in CSO can do about the jobs the students get.

Little by little you've won me over, Elie. That Tim Curry line was awesome!

-Nothing about writing an anonymous email from someone else's account indicates that the writer was being courageous. One would expect some attempt to verify the accuracy of such a statement before throwing an email temper tantrum to hundreds of people. Maybe I am mistaken in expecting 20-somethings to act like adults..

-There is a lawyer in the Wake career services office and she is a great resource. There are also a lot of great career and networking opportunities that I'm guessing this person did not utilize.

-This email was written by someone who hasn't figured out that legal jobs aren't (always) handed to you the way all of his/her previous opportunities obviously were.

-Everyone who has the motivation to actually apply himself/herself in law school and the initiative to establish his/her own career path will be successful, even if it takes a few years. It is a shame that Wake is getting shit for something overheard most likely out of context and almost certainly exaggerated. A research assistantship is a valuable experience that can only increase one's prospect in the job market so if offering two such positions is Wake Forest's big scandal, I think we are doing pretty well.

Nice one, Elie.

Hell has frozen over and my champagne is chilling nicely.

-Pop Bottles

People turning this into a career services vs. "whiners" problem are missing the point.

The dirty aspect to this is not the fact the school is offering 3Ls a job, even if it's for unethical reasons. It's not the fact that a decent amount of career services offices are incompetent, though many are.

It's the fact that three years prior to this, the school handed out BS employment numbers to entice these students to attend and that they are doing it to current applicants today -- that's the issue.

This practice is by no means even remotely limited to Wake Forest (in fact, I'd be willing to entertain the possibility HYS don't do this...maybe...but that's about the extent to which I'd be willing to absolve other schools), but whether these 3Ls have a legitimate complaint against the career services office or not, they certainly have a legitimate complaint against the law school, and that's what warrants the people engaged in this practice being called callous dishonest scumbags.

Blake Morant is a strong dean and has done very well at WFU in his first two years at the helm. The practice of offering unemployed 3Ls university jobs to protect employed at graduation/employed 9 months out numbers for US News rankings is totally commonplace. Indeed, I am certain that top 10 law schools engage in the very same practice. So, why call out WFU for a practice that schools in the Duke, Penn, and Michigan echelon also use to game the US News rankings? If you want to investigate this question in a serious way, call the deans at places like Northwestern and UVA and ask if they employ graduated J.D. students to lick envelopes in the admissions office. In sum, this isn't news -- moreover, there's no reason to call Dean Morant out for this.

29 isn't a nerd, but he does post on legal gossip blogs....

96- The fact that most law schools do this is a defense against them being called out for it by other law schools, but not by their students. Since schools aren't upfront about these sorts of things, I think whenever you find evidence to post of it, that does make it newsworthy. Does Wake Forest deserve to be admonished for fudging stats any more than Penn, Duke, Northwestern, UVA, etc. Nah. Feel free to toss in that other schools are doing this. Does Wake Forest deserve to be admonished for fudging stats? Yes.

Hey Elie,

At my country house just pondering the meaning of your comment @ 19. What the fuck does it mean?

Does it mean that you don't have to worry about career services because you are HLS?

Because, trust me Elie, if anyone should worry about their career options, it should be you.

You will never be able to practice law again after the joke you have made of yourself on this blog. NEVER.

--Skaddenite.

I'm a Wake grad (from 10 years ago) and I realized that career services wasn't going to help me get a job outside of NC and I didn't use them after my 1L year. That being said, I don't think Wake is to blame entirely. I think there are too many lawyers being pumped into and industry that's not large enough to absorb them. So, all law schools are perpetuating a fraud on the idiot consumers who think that the law is a solid choice. It's not. It's a gamble.... that you *may* get a job earning over 160K. But the truth is, that a few people get high paying jobs and everyone else is fighting to earn 70K and suffering with 100K of loans. What a crock of shit. Law schools sell a faulty product. I wish people would wake up and stop going to school so that the industry recovers from the glut. In a weird way, I hope that all big firms (including my own) lower their associate salaries to 125K and everyone else earns substantially less as well. Maybe wide spread financial ruin will discourage people from going into our field. Only then will we be a respected and elite profession once again. Also, I agree that the whole manner in which the law is taught should have died with Socrates. It's antiquated and ineffective. We should spend 70% of our time writing memos and learning practical legal skills. So that we can get out and hang a shingle. Since this economy will make hanging a shingle out the only thing you will actually be able to do as a lawyer when you can't get a job.

Maybe Wake doesn't reported them as "employed" but, more importantly, I bet they aren't reported as "unemployed" either.

It's not the career services fault you didn't get a job. Remember, firms interview you to determine whether or not they think you will fit in. I attend a tier 2 school and most of the Vault 20 firms had OCI interviews there. Firms would not interview you unless they think you're somewhat qualified for the job. So if you got an interview and didn't get the job, it's probably because they think you're a douche bag. Stop blaming career services and go kill yourself.

96 (or anyone else) - What has Dean Morant done that is so great? Hasn't Wake's ranking fallen since he got there? Has he landed any notable professors?Employment is obviously falling everywhere so I doubt Wake is any exception.

Any suggestion that TWO people being employed by the CSO is a poor reflection on him is absurd. But I'm just wondering what Dean Morant has done very well.

"Employed 9 months After Graduation" has always been such a dumb statistic.

Who wants to pay for the Bar exam/study course? Who wants to graduate without a job? Not to mention the vast majority of jobs to be had after graduation (even before the recession) are subpar at best.

All schools do this. Even most of the T14 has been caught doing this or other employment fudging at some point or another.

102 - Yeah, I'm soooo sure that most of the V20 seriously recruits at a T2 school. The actual stats say you would be lucky if 10% of your class got NJ250 jobs, nevermind V20.

BU's career development office is utterly useless, too. It's so frustrating. If you don't get a job OCI, they have NOTHING to offer. And they are clueless about the job market. Most disappointing aspect of law school = career counseling.

This will never happen at the shithole known as Washington College of Law (American University.)

After two weeks there, 1Ls have reseigned themselves to the fact that their chances of getting a job are bad to none. So they either transfer out or thinks of ways to make their parent's basement comfy.

Rest easy Dean Jaffee, until the next library head debacle occurs, you're off the hook.

well put #100!

Northwestern does this with their grads.

wake forest has some cool colors and the symbol is nice....they should get jobs just for that

What's wrong with helping students and graduates get jobs? If they want to work at the school, and there are opportunities available at the school, it sounds like a match made in Heaven. A job at a school is still a job, so it doesn't sound like "falsification" to me. If people think it is, maybe they should petition U.S. News to change its category to "percentage of graduates who work in major international law firms within six months of graduation." But that would merely reinforce the (false) notion that law school is intended to guarantee people jobs in major international law firms. Is that what everyone who goes to law school wants?

"But that would merely reinforce the (false) notion that law school is intended to guarantee people jobs in major international law firms. Is that what everyone who goes to law school wants?"

-

To the extent this notion exists among people who enter law school, it's because of practices like the one Wake Forest is engaged in.

If you tell prospective students that 90-95% of graduates get jobs (and it's reasonable for a person looking at that figure to expect actual law jobs not stuff like this) and imply that those wanting to go into private practice can obtain six figure salaries (which even many very shitty law schools do), it is a little late and hypocritical to call them "whiners" when they find themselves graduating three years later, unemployed, and angry that this is how those statistics were created.

People have gone to jail and paid huge fines for misleading statements and false advertising that caused far less damage than taking away 3 years of somebody's life and misleading them into giving you $150k in the hope of something that you know is bullshit.

Giving people a job isn't unethical, lying and messing around with the numbers you give to applicants, to get them to attend law school, is.

The people who do this are shitbags.

I realize that nobody cares about this thread anymore, but I’ll put in my two cents just in case some Wake students are still reading it. I’m a Wake grad from a few years back, working in an AmLaw100 firm. I got the job through the Career Services OCI program, so I owe that to them. No, it’s not a great Career Services office, and they do focus on the top ten percent more than the rest of the students, but that’s the same anywhere.

Here’s the problem though: you have chosen to enter a shitty profession. The jobs that you covet—the ones that pay six figures and help you pay your loans—all suck. Trust me. That would explain my loser ass posting this comment on a Sunday at the office. It’s a dying model, and the people who go find themselves real jobs will be happier than those of us who are just riding this BigLaw bubble to the bitter end.

All of those words I just said don’t mean much though, because the idea that is now dawning on you is correct: you have chosen a school that is no better than a state school and you paid way too much for it. It’s a good education if you actually do the work (which 80% of you absolutely do not, so suck it up), and your professors are great. Wake, however, is charging you money that you will still owe to a for-profit entity thirty years from now. And they charged you that amount based on the false promise that you would make a lot of money. And then they will ask you to donate money back to them when you are done (no seriously, they will). Here’s the solution: learn to live on less. Even if you get your six-figure job, learn to live on less. For god’s sake save your money. None of us is entitled to anything by virtue of our JD, and your job can fizzle just like that. If you drive a car that costs more than $25K and you’re complaining about Career Services, you are an absolute idiot. Be a better student, be a better lawyer, save your money, and things will work out fine. Oh, and go Deacs.

the wake forest law school administration should be on trial for Felony Fraud. And 70 percent of all law schools adminstrations should also be charged with felony fraud.

The law school scam is breaking into the public consciousness, no matter how much the law schools, the state bars, the ABA and blogs like ATL try to distract from the main issue--SUPPLY AND DEMAND. THere are too many lawyers and too little work for them.

Please. This email is hardly surprising. Most of the people I've met at Wake are so self-important and have such a great sense of self-entitlement it's not even funny. What is funny however, is how many people here treat this law school experience like they're still in undergrad and everything will be handed to them. It's not uncommon to hear many speak about how they are basically guaranteed big firm jobs. Luckily, I managed to find my own employment but it really is going to be amusing to watch people, like the author of the email, scramble. Clearly, we're in tough economic times and it's shocking to see so many people here who are uninformed about the state of the current legal market. YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN PATH. I'm not quite sure what's in the water in Winston-Salem. Wake is a pretty good school, but some who go here are living in another universe. Then they have the nerve to blame the career services office? Please.

113 and 115 have it right (I think I'm recalling the right posts).

113 - BigLaw is a shitty job. I'm a 7th year at a big firm and it's not all that fun. Whatever you end up doing, avoid debt and save your money. Seriously. Avoid debt. Save your money. Do NOT buy a house. Golden handcuffs. Seriously. Watch "The Firm" (or read it) until you're scared of Wilford Brimley.

115 - Make your own path. Yes.

Higher ed in this country is a scam. Track tuition against the CPI. It's disgusting.

95: Thank you. Do posters really think that there's nothing even remotely shady about giving unemployed grads jobs in Career Services solely to inflate the employed-upon-graduation stats?

I hate to break this to people- but things like this happen everywhere. NYU use to pay its students and consider them employed for their #'s if a student found a nonpaying fellowship or job- even if it was just for a few months. I am not sure if this still happens.

I still don't understand why law schools are allowed to self-report employment stats and salaries in the first place. The conflict of interest is far too great. Why doesn't US News demand a list of all graduating students from each school, and hire an outside accounting firm to do a random, scientifically valid sample of each class? That way we would have pure, unadulterated statistics, without giving the law schools a chance to add their spin.

119: That's an interesting idea, actually. Most of the other criteria are objective and somewhat immune from spin, i.e. number of titles in the library, that kind of thing.

Poor kids, I lived through this when graduating law School into the recession of 1992. When I started law school started placement was in the high 90% percent range. Placement rate for our class dropped to 50%. Leads to a few words of wisdom; Solo Practice, Small Firm.

Poor kids, I lived through this when graduating law School into the recession of 1992. When I started law school the placement rate was in the high 90% percent range. The Placement rate for our class dropped to 50%. Leads to a few words of wisdom; Solo Practice, Small Firm.

So during one of these town meetings my law dean had last week, they esitated and said that law school deans lie about employment rates so as not not mess up their rank. I didn't even read the dean's response that's attached to the story, but I'm sure it's crap. Maybe he doesn't lie but for some reason I believe my dean. My dean also noted a few years back that one school reported 100% and Harvard doesn't even report 100%! Go figure.

I knew there was a reason I transferred OUT of WFU to a T-10!!

About 10 years ago, I chose Wake over UNC, because as an out-of-state student I wasn't getting a great price break, Wake had smaller class sizes and Winston Salem has a much lower hassle factor when it comes to housing, parking and cost of living in general. Oh, and because Wake supposedly had a 94% placement rate at the time. (They reallyl didn't say that 94% included things other than jobs at medium-sized or large law firms.)

I actually did get a decent summer job through Career Services which would have led to a job in a practice area I didn't like ... eventually found a job with a contact I made through WFU's excellent clinic program instead. I got lucky, b/c the very next year the job market tanked. These things are cyclical. Our class got the alcoholic placement director fired, but two new lawschools have opened in NC since then. The real problem is too many law students, not enough jobs. And maybe a few too many law students who just want an easy path to big salaries, or more likely, who just want to avoid looking for a job right out of undergrad.

So enough with the shit-talking ("oh where is that school, bumf--- wherever ?"). Wake students are not uniformly rich whiners (I withhold comment on the undergrads), the teachers are great, and the overall education there is just fine. Wake is always going to be primarily focused on NC and the Southeast, and Wake is always going to be ranked lower than UNC b/c UNC turns down more applicants ... no big surprise, since UNC costs significantly less in-state for basically the same caliber of education.

It should be understood that you go to lawschool in the region where you want to practice, unless you are are at a top ten school or top 10% (and extremely good at marketing yourself.) I understood that when I applied to Wake and UNC. Choose where you want to live, go to lawschool there, and make contacts and learn the practical skills while you are still in school. Law school placement offices are no more trustworthy than any other college school placement offices.

I'll give Wake this: they didn't lie about the bar pass rate, which is almost always over 90%. So shit on my lesser tier lawschool if you want to...it's not going to make any difference when I'm kicking your ass in court.

Glad to hear that Wake Law School continues to adhere to it's high morale standards of the past. I graduated from college in 1970 and in my senior year was accepted to Wake Forest Law School. Unfortunately, I was drafted in August 1970 (first year of the lottery system) into the Vietnam War. When I completed my 2 years active duty, I wrote to Wake Forest seeking admission in the next class. They told me the Dean who had accepted me had retired and my admission was no longer valid. For years I told everyone I had changed my mind about going to law school because I felt I was somehow to blame. Years later I realized that Wake Forest was sending the message of the time -- we want no part of returning Vietnam veterans.

As a graduate of WFU, I am distressed by the spelling, etc, throughout the above "student's" email - not just at the end when she may be drunk.

These are not typos, folks; this person does not demonstrate the mastery of the English language that would be expected of a Wake Forest student -- in any college at any level. That was my first clue that this may not be a student. If it is a student, Wake -- get your admit standards up to snuff.

--proudtobeademondeacon