FIRST

Dean Sargent resigned from VIllanova Law yesterday, thanks ATL you ruined another person's career!

Does this story repeat every year or is it me?

meTTTs

How's Sargent doing at Villanova?

Who cares if some guys go to a strip club off hour? Over sensitive losers.

What is this "TTT?"

Must be Cadwalader's way of weeding out the politically correct whiners that they don't want anyway.

Agree with 6. So when female partners invite female sumer associates to a females-only event during work hours, that's not exclusionary? But some guys going to a strip club in the middle of the night is? Sorry, but get over it.

C'mon, don't begrudge them a little fun. They were just supporting single mothers and college students (and, who knows, some recently laid-off lawyers).

Can we please have a full body pic of the girl in the photo? I am intrigued... And I'd like to objectify the bitch that was the offended tipster.

I hope they elevate Dean James to his rightful position.

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This is supposed to be news? That some guys on their own time and dime went to a strip club? The summer that sent this big news to ATL will never make it in biglaw if something like this truly offends her. Not sure why ATL even reported it. Do you really think that male lawyers (as well as female lawyers) at other biglaw firms in NYC do not ever go to strip clubs and happen to invite some summers along?

White & Case II

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Dean James? We're talking about Vanillanova , we're not in Kansas anymore.

People are allowed to be friends outside of work, what's wrong with going to a strip club w/ some friends when it's not sponsored by the law firm?

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Clubs like this are a sterling example of capitalism at its finest. The SA that sent this clearly hates America.

At least they didn't lay off over half of their first year associates!

This is not "news". What could be "news" is the rumors swirling around that another big axe might be falling soon.

The tippster should be fired immediatly. Why would you sell out your firm in this market for behavior of your colleagues on off hours.

I dont need PE's position on this. Just teach that bitch a lesson and send her bag to the minor league where she belongs.

I hope you like personal injury litigation, you persnickety killjoy.

why is this news?

Does Rob Riggle know that Kinney Recruiting is using his picture for the Asia Chronicles?

Dean Hands-in-Pants! Give him a big new office!

First Amendment Freedom Of Association (including the right not to associate) - 1
ATL - Still clueless about life.

Snooze. This stuff happens all the time.

Disgusting. Cadwalader= TTT

wahhhhhhh objectification wahhh fuck off

Are official females-only summer events held at big law firms?

The firm did not "pay for attendance at the strip club." But the drinks and tips were expensed?

Dean Hands-in-Pants!

Kash, when will you disclose your tax returns for the last three years?

No big deal at all. Is this how boring summer has become that this is a story?

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The exact same thing happened at Cadwalader in 2004 as well. I think it was a group of attorneys in the real estate department that were responsible for the post-event visit to a strip club.

Kinda funny to see it happen again -- but only kinda.

Not News: Lawyers and Summer Associates go to strip club.

News: Lawyers and Summer Associates go to strip club, Summer pukes on stripper giving lap dance; Summer and lawyer go home together.

I realize it's a slow news summer--but seriously? This is a non story.

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Who cares? How is this newsworthy? The shameful thing here is that a legal blog would even bother to write a story about some guys who on their own time and dime did something totally legal and proper, which happened to occur after a summer associate event. I feel for the victims of this story -- the male associates and summers who have to deal with this non-story because some pinhead at ATL thought it was giggle-giggle funny.

Ewww ewww ewww.

Cadwalader is a rancid sexist shithole.

Women are so god damned whiny. Please just stfu and go out shopping with your female coworkers. Jesus this pisses me off.

amen 36 lol

Leave it to fem-nazi bitches to try to ruin a guy's good time for no good reason.

In the words of David Banner, "if you insulted, grab your fuckin' pussy and split."

more like fagwalader, amirite?

I wish all the attorney advertisements on the sides of busses looked like that picture. If that were the case, we would have a much more reputable profession.

Wow, how offensive!

They brought them to a Mets game??!!

46 for the win!

31: Yes, there are female-only summer events at big firms. My firm offered a shopping spree-type activity where all the women were invited to a fancy department store to get wined & dined, receive gift bags and large discounts on merchandise. The same firm had women's networking events that although technically open to all in the actual invitation, were later disclaimed by recruiting to be intended for "women only" and that men were strongly encouraged not to show up.

All the women went to play Bunko.

Men at other V50 firms have no penises.

27, you're a fucking idiot

If associates take prospective employees to a strip club, its a work event. As far as hiring partners are concerned, if coworkers are hanging out together outside of work, they are representing the firm. It may be unjust in a lot of people's opinions, but hiring partners are doing the hiring and firing.

Blah blah. Who cares. Half the (young to young-ish) women lawyers I know take pole dancing classes and go to strip clubs as "homework". Whoever is offended by this needs to stay in their little ivory tower and write law review articles about the evils of sex.

"FN1] Shea is now known as "Citifield," [sic] but it will always be Shea to us, especially when we need to use that name for an alliterative joke."

Two issues:

A) Shea is not known as Citi Field. That's like saying that George W Bush is now known as Barack Obama. The differences between the two stadiums are obvious if you have been to both. They are not even at the same physical location -- Citi Field's parking lot is where Shea used to be.

B) The alliterative joke was obvious without the footnote.

54: Let me take a play out of the liberal tolerance handbook (ex, abortion and gay marriage): if you don't like strip clubs, don't go to them.

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SotomayOR is not please, not pleased at all with these white sexist devils.

Good for them! Too many law firms have developed nauseatingly PC cultures to coddle the 2% of woman who are easily offended. If some associates want to have some legal, consensual, non-firm-sponsored fun, what business is it of the firm or the women who work there? The shocking thing in this story is that the complaining women must actually imagine that they should be able to control what their co-workers do in their free time. If that isn't proof positive that extreme feminism is a form of fascism I'm not sure what is.

Firms still have female SAs??? I thought firms phased them out during the recession...

59, that would depend on whether any of the partners in question were Latino. If so, then no problem, because then it was a clear exercise of wise Latino judgment.

#56 - You might want to consider what your Obama is actually doing (as opposed to saying) about national security and you'll realize that BHO really is W, Jr. in many respects.

Unfortunately we'll never know who the tipster was, which is why most male associates will never (a) feel fully comfortable, (b) free to confide in, or (c) in camraderie with their female colleagues. What a great step forward for feminism.

Wow, as though we needed any more proof that ATL's readers are pretty much all men. I agree with some of the commenters: I don't care that the Cadwalader lawyers went to a strip club. It's their time and their dime (dollar?). But I can see the argument that bringing summer associates--that you are actively recruiting--with them was piss-poor judgment. It doesn't matter who is paying, guys, it matters who is hosting the outing. And I seriously doubt it was a summer associate who made the suggestion to go there. And also--news flash!!--sometimes appearances make a difference. It's not really fair but it's real life. Sorry to break it to you. And I'm really sorry you feel left out of the shopping spree events. Hey, let the ladies know next year and I'm sure you will be able to go with them.

Guys go to strip clubs and watch porn. If women want to do the same thing, more power to them. If not, please stop bitching like some puritan idiots who would prefer to live in a Taliban-esque state where no "objectification" of women ever occurs.

Shoot me now before this country turns into a pseudo-communist nanny state (oh wait, thats already happened).

"[T]his certainly seems to send a message of exclusion to women; or at least -- even if any female summers attended (which none did) -- that the firm not only tolerated but supported the objectification/degradation of women that occurs at these venues."

1. It is assuredly not settled that strip clubs are degrading to women, particularly to the dancers themselves. Some would counter that it is very empowering.

2. Every summer associate program in America includes several "women attorney" events. These are to the exclusion of men.

3. Blow me.

At one firm, I know for a fact that female attorneys used to take their female proteges out to manicure/pedicures, and it was ON the firm because attorneys all received a small discretionary amount of money that they were allowed to spend on 'events' with summers.

Word on the street is that mark Sargent falsified his ethnic background as Latino, when confronted about the matter, he replied "Italians are Latino too!". But the new dean is a Real Latina: Del Tosto, and the law school is trying to win favors from Sotomayor. Apparently both Del Tosto and Sotomayor are memers of the exclusive Belizian Amazon club.

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65 -- I would if I were a gay.

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Seriously, no one is offended by the fact that they were brought to a Mets game?

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At one firm, I know for a fact that female attorneys used to take their female proteges out to manicure/pedicures, and it was ON the firm because attorneys all received a small discretionary amount of money that they were allowed to spend on 'events' with summers.

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It would have been more entertaining had the female SAs actually done the stripping. Has anyone else noticed that a disproportionate number of young women SAs are smoking hot? Seriously. Take off that suit! Yeah! I bet you'll "bend over backwards" for this job.

For those who don't understand why this is news:

Inability to understand things from others' perspectives = incompetent attorney

Law is still an old boy's club. Attorneys taking summers from their own firm to a strip club perpetuates that. That is why it is inappropriate.

If shopping involved the degredation of men, you whiners might have a point. But yeah, the point is women are often excluded from events where men do the "real" negotiating/bonding, because they aren't invited or events that are picked which are hostile to them. To counter for that, women get support from other women, and advice how to negotiate a boys club as a woman. Personally, I don't find much use for women-only events, but that is because the guys I work with aren't assholes.

I think the most hilarious thing about the comments is how offended the feeble-minded commenters here are (mostly men, I take it) at the fact that a woman brought questionable activities to the attention of management in a completely appropriate and professional manner. Note that she did not state, specifically, that *she* was offended; she merely alerted the management to the fact that activity was undertaken by certain representatives of the firm that sent an exclusionary message to women.

That you all jump on here and start screeching "ZOMG WTF IS WRONG WITH TEH WIMMINS TEHY ARE SO WHINY AND EASILY OFFENDED" betrays your own fear and inability to thrive in a modern workplace. Make no mistake: YOU are the ones here who are easily offended (at your subjective perception of an "unfair," "PC" work culture, when the firm didn't even so much as censure the participants when it certainly could have). YOU are the ones who are most upset about this incident. YOU are the ones who feel you've been wronged somehow (by, I guess, the fact that some women find strip clubs to be exclusionary to women -- not a wholly unreasonable position, even if not a position one is logically compelled to agree with. Reasonable minds can differ). Why so over-emotional and flustered, guys?

Lawyers went to a strip club! That's so wrong because we all know that men are supposed to behave like ladies. I bet their is some uni-browed Yale SA getting all outraged over this. My advice: lighten up and grab a pole.

82, please explain how a strip club is "degradation of women." The women are paid a good wage to dance around. Was Demi Moore degraded when she filmed Striptease? Are nude ballets and impressionist paintings with naked women degrading to women too?

#83 = Lane Bryant model

As a female attorney who feels strongly about the manner in which women are treated by their firms, I think this is a non-issue.

"I have honest-to-god battles to fight, Leo. I don't have time for the cosmetic ones."

That's right! Call the summer ugly! THAT'LL show her how much more mature and level-headed men are than women!

Oh man, calling a woman ugly is like the WORST thing you can do, since everyone knows that women who are brilliant but not hot are completely worthless.

Christ, I swear this site is run over by 12-year-olds.

$20 says that the leggy model is Kashmir hill

Dudes, why all the chick-bashing? I haven't played boys vs. girls since the 3rd grade. Please be civilized and insult people on an individual motherfucking basis.

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Good Lord what a whiney biatch. It's a legal activity. Get over it.

I say kudos for supporting the local economy. Strippers need tuition too. "Just 'cuz she dances go-go, that don't make her a ho, no."

43 said it exactly right. Goddamn.

Kash, you *could* have said, "from Citi to tig 'ol bitties." I expect you know that, and chose not to.

+1 respect for Kashmir Hill.

81=82=83

77-

that was really corny, but it made me lol.

"Has anyone else noticed that a disproportionate number of young women SAs are smoking hot?"

Jesus, 80, no. Unless by disproportionate you mean "in a portion smaller than that portion that would be smoking hot in an equivalent sample of non-Summer Associate young women" or perhaps "in a portion greater than that portion that would be smoking hot in an equivalent sample of female lawyers other than young summer associates."

Christ, you need to get out more.

TTTramps
TTTrollops
SluTTTs
WanTTTons
ProsTTTiTTTuTTTes
HarloTTTs

56 - wow, the level of douchery in that post stole the moisture from my mouth like an unripe persimmon. do you jack it to SNY, or what?

101 outdid 77 for best comment of the thread.

The analogies to women-only pedicure events are not even remotely relevant. If the firm condoned a women-only event that centered around the hyper-sexualization of naked men, wherein those men are in fact the object of the entertainment for the female attorneys, perhaps the analogy would be apt.

Some guy associates at my old firm, which I will refer to only by its initials (V&E), took some guy summer associates to a strip club in Houston. Turned out one of the summers was a Mormon and was horribly offended. He quit the next day and left, and there was a huge scandal. It's really not the best idea in the world.

Both the associates and summer associates who visited the strip club exhibited very poor judgment and immaturity, and I would say this even if all the women associates and all the women summer associates had joined them. You cannot mix sex and work, ever. Our society salivates over even the slightest hint of sexual impropriety, and catching presumably successful people who work in a respected and staid profession in any sort of compromising situation is going to be "news," and it is going to sully the reputation of the firm.

I can only blame this on the narcissistic and entitled attitude that young lawyers have these days. It is all about them and their wants and desires - give me more money; hand me a career on a silver platter; no one else matters but me; I am special; the firm cannot dictate what I do with my life! Well, you are wrong. You are a representative of your firm and the actions you take reflect on that firm. Each of the associates should be disciplined and none of the summers should receive offers.

102:

81 here. Nope. 81 was my only post (besides this one, of course).

But, 102, why do you care about who posted what? It's the content of the post that matters. But, if you have nothing intelligent to say and aren't willing to reconsider your position, I guess you have to grasp on to something...

87 watched Westwing this morning too.

Irregardless, this firm is still TTT.

Wait... serious question... do you guys really work for firms that DON'T pay for SA trips to strip clubs?

I'm 2 for 2 on that. You obviously aren't playing your cards right.

"what would you do if you're kid was at home hungry and you had to strip just to make money cuz his daddy is in prison . . . ". Anyone know that name of that song?

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81=82=83=111

121=Roxana

LOL. Funny on multiple fronts - sorry that some female summer got P.O.'d by this, but um, honey, when you are required to bill 2000+ hours, there's not a lot of time to meet attractive femailes. Hence, stripclubs. Furthermore, I know quite a few straight female attys that go w/ the guys to these places - and probably have more fun than the guys. And finally, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

"sends exclusionary messages".... "could be offensive to some people"....

in other words, the firm didn't actually do anything offensive, the tipster wasn't actually offended (or won't cop to it because they think it would be "uncool"), and the firm didn't try to exclude anyone from anywhere - but the ranks of the professionally offended are firing up their fake outrage just to see if they can make the firm squeal.

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As a woman, I could care less about strip clubs. Who cares if a bunch of nerdy lawyers need to pay to watch subpar women dance and strip to get off?

76,

I'm offended. Seems like a waste of the client's money to take summer associates to anything non billable. But I hear mets tix are cheap.

Seriously, if anyone on this post is so narcisstic and can't understand why this is newsworthy and a problem, you had better be ready for a no offer this summer. May happen anyway, but why make it easy?

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Oh, ouch! I have been cut to the core by the resounding truthiness of 86's wit! Alas! My secret life as a Lane Bryant model has been revealed, thus effectively refuting every point I made in my comment without so much as an actual response to anything I wrote! Zounds! Drat! Confound it all! I am beaten!

-83

One day you will die and everything you have earned and accomplished will be taken from you. There is no order to the universe, all beauty is accidental, all human suffering is in vain, there is nothing to live for, and any meaning, if meaning is to be found, must be imagined by the individual.

This is the challenge of consciousness. What, I ask, is the logical human reaction to all of this? What decisions will be important to you on your deathbed?

I for one, expect that I will rather have (i) oggled at more strippers, and (ii) billed fewer hours. Every one of these associates, especially if they are fired, will in the future look back at this incident as one of the best decisions they ever made.

The associates might have paid for the summer's trip to the strip joint but it's still bad publicity for the firm. For the love of g-d, everyone's known since the 80's that you don't take underlings to a strip joint no matter who pays and/or whether females are invited. It doesn't matter how stripping is "non-degrading" or whatever. It looks bad for the firm, clients might get annoyed (sometimes female clients) and the resulting gossip among all staff is something the firm doesn't need. Period. Associates should be on their best behavior now. Stupid.

43 said it exactly right. Goddamn.

115-119 city high. send my award first class, bitch. and work on your terrible paraphrasing and st-st-st-stutter.

130 - You have to have discretion. The easiest way to be able to visit more strip clubs is to stay employed so you can make more rain to shower upon the girls. To do that, you don't embarrass your remployer by taking their recruits to a titty bar - you know someone is going to blog about it and point their hypo(hyper??)critical finger at you (cut to the last scene of Invasion of the Body Snatchers with Donald Sutherland). It is not an issue of right or wrong, but of discretion and maturity. Don't get caught, morons!!

110

126, will you marry me?

65-- Absolutely right. Who really cares that a bunch of boys decided they wanted to go look at boobs together? The problem is that if it is an SA event or following an SA event, it continues to be recruiting. In this case, it is boy's club recruiting, and I thought we were all trying to move away from the world where BigLaw is just a boy's club. Women make better lawyers, anyway. Frankly, if one of the women had been gutsy enough to go along to the club and refused to be left out, she would be my hero.

129- Snap, Snap, Snap: You go gurl!

I can guarantee you that CWT does not care that some of its associates partied with some of its summers at a strip club on their own time and dime. Summer associates are not children, they are adults who are free to entertain themselves in any legal way they want to on their own time and dime. The only person in this non story that is at risk of getting a no offer because of this non story is the summer that tipped off ATL about this non story. It is highly likely that a person like that will keep quiet about making the tip, so word will get out who she is and she will be marked as someone who is dramatic and with bad judgment. No offer for her.

When I was a summer at CWT in '00 I also went with some colleagues and associates to a strip club once or twice. This happens at every biglaw firm.

Wrong on the law, 27.

"If not, please stop bitching like some puritan idiots who would prefer to live in a Taliban-esque state where no "objectification" of women ever occurs."

Wow. Such infallible logic.

I'm pretty confident the same posters who think it's normal as blueberry pie to bring a bunch of male recruits to a strip club would sit around biting their nails about leaving before 7:00 at night.

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83 -

I'll bite. I can't speak for some of the more mysogynistic comments here, but like alot of people reading this story I'm amazed at the double standard in play. Law firms host official women-only events all the time. Sometimes they're stupid things like group pedicures, but oftentimes they're directly related to professional development. My firm has sent its female associates to multi-day sessions covering topics like how to drum up business, how to make partner, and how to enhance one's area of expertise. It would be nice to be invited to those things since those are areas I'm vaguely interested in but, since I'm male, I'm not welcome. There are no equivalent sessions for men. I'm apparently expected to learn that stuff on my own by networking informally with my male colleagues.

Which makes the current "controversy" a little rich. So a few associates took a few summer associates to a strip club after hours. Putting aside the question of whether strip clubs are degrading, the main objection seems to be that this conduct sent an exclusionary message to female summers. Come on. Should firms police everything their employees do every hour of the day? In light of how firms generally operate, and given that these were just associates hanging out in the middle of the night, it's an outrageous stretch to construe some sort of firm-sanctioned exclusionary message directed at women. To see this wind up as an ATL post, with people debating whether the associates should be censured or worse, seems like total overkill.

115-119 city high. send my award first class, bitch. and work on your terrible paraphrasing and st-st-st-stutter.

"There are no equivalent sessions for men. I'm apparently expected to learn that stuff on my own by networking informally with my male colleagues."

The premise of female-only outings is that women are underrepresented in large law firm leadership and, thus, additional mentoring and networking is necessary. The same holds true for minority-only outings. Fair or not, that's the premise. It's not analogous to a bunch of drunk dudes going out to stare at titties.

135 - Let's do it.

Love,

126

138 - You are wrong.

145 posts and NOTHING from PE????

Was he the SA that got fired??

144 - if it sends an exclusionary message to men, then it is directly analogous. I thought we were talking about the appearance, not about the merit of the conduct.

- 142

smooth. Now Cadawalder doesn't have to worry about too many female SAs taking their offer (if they even get one). Female associates just leave to have kids anyway, so Cad doesn't have to deal with firing them on a discriminatory basis later. Decadent and shrewd.

126 and all you other idiots out there -

It's, "I COULDN'T care less." NOT "I could care less." See the difference? If you could care less, what's the freakin' point.

And while we're at it. Don't ever say "it begs the question." In 99.99% of the circumstances, it never "begs the question."

haha
your firm doesn't think strip clubs are appropriate venues to take summers to.
I can't believe you all do, and are sooooooooooooooo angry.

142, do you really think that a strip club is equivalent to a pedicure or a networking event? Also, do you have evidence that women-focused networking events actually *exclude* men (or are men simply not encouraged)?

It seems to me there's a world of difference between an event wherein representatives of the firm organize an outing to a place geared toward men where women remove their clothing for money, and an event where the firm tries to provide networking tips and tools for a traditionally-underrepresented category of people. I mean, I hope the differences are obvious? To be more blunt, I guess, I've never heard of people getting naked at women-focused networking events (and I suspect that, if someone did, that person would be subject to severe disciplinary action from the firm, as would any other contributors to the unprofessional atmosphere in which such clothing removal took place).

Or, to use a different example, what if firm representatives organized a "bitch fest" for female associates and summers where the activities included, say, a professional male stripper and a game of truth or dare geared toward saying negative things about men? I am pretty sure the MRAs would have a field day with that one (and I would bet money that the firm would deliver a much stronger response than it had -- if it could be said to have had much of a "response" at all -- in this case).

Also, for what it's worth, my very male, very heterosexual IT-professional boyfriend loves pedicures.

150 - You are correct on the first point unless the speaker is being sarcastic.

152, your very male, very heterosexual boyfriend was in Flashdancers last week being dry-humped by Svetlana

Ha! This is what is deemed newsworthy in this pathetic decade? In my day -- the roaring 80's -- all the associates would get taken out to top-notch, "full-service" clubs after we closed big deals. Not only would we get unlimited private time with some of the most mind-blowing women in the city, but we would have mountains of cocaine available to us. I swear, every time I think back I get all chocked up.

Oh ya, the women at the firm knew their place and kept quiet about it. But that was when biglaw was still elite.

150 - You are indeed one of said "nerdy lawyers". So please get a life.

155 - A moment of silence for the late great Harmony Club...

"Also, for what it's worth, my very male, very heterosexual IT-professional boyfriend loves pedicures." -- Now who's being naive?

And even if your boyfriend wanted to go to said pedicure events, while he technically could at many firms (because explicitly forbidding men could get the firm sued), often times firms nevertheless send strongly worded disclaimers to clarify whom they want attending such events. As in "this event is intended for women, although we can't force you not to show up, we strongly encourage you not to show up" and so on. While that might not be outright exclusion, it's constructive exclusion as no guy is going out of his way, no matter how much he likes pedicures, to contravene a very strong suggestion by his firm.

152 -

we seem to be talking at cross-purposes. Of course the differences are obvious, but I also think they're irrelevant. If your problem with the outing is merely that the guys went to a strip club, instead of something not skeevy, then it logically follows that you have no problem with male associates inviting only male summer associates to an academic or intellectual event, and telling any interested women that they're not welcome. Are you cool with that?

I pointed out the nature of the womens' retreats just to show that it's strange that women -- partners and associates -- can get together for unquestionably job-related activies, at the exclusion of their male colleagues, while guys are getting ripped for doing things after hours that have nothing to do with work. (And yes, men are not invited.)

Whatever. We're not changing any minds here so let's just call it a day. Give my best to your boyfriend.

155, did you all do the safety dance?

Also, how many of your colleagues developed bonitis from this constant "full-service" treatment?

129 - Are you a BBW?

No big deal. Lawyers go to strip clubs all the time. Really lamed on the summer who told the firm about it. He was probably trying to ensure that he would get an offer.

The real story is that when I was a summer at Cadwalader, I got a female partner to strip for me in her office.

159, I'd like to respond, because I understand what you are saying, but it sounds like you're done discussing things. Thanks for at least being civil and reasonable, which puts you in probably the top .0001% of commenters here.

Cheers,
83/152

130 - That is some very sage counsel my friend. Strippers over work any day of the week.

I must say, while the rest of these comments tend to be fratty, douchy, and often mysogynistic BS, the part of 142's comments about women-only attorney events teaching business development, partnership tips, expertise enhancement, etc., etc., strikes a chord. I too have witnessed these opportunities being provided for the female associates, but not for male associates like myself.

I suppose the idea is that since we're "in" on the "boy's club" we don't need any of these things. Or maybe that we're being taught these things by our "boy's club" mentors when the women are not around.

We're not. In fact, the only colleagues that I've known to have decent mentors - I mean real mentors, not the painfully useless "assigned" mentors everyone gets - have been women.

Good for you, but I'm feeling a little excluded here myself. I mean, can someone chime in with a justification for a business development class for female associates only, with no corresponding class for male associates (or for all associates)?

I mean, I've heard the idea that in group settings with men and women, sometimes women feel that the men dominate the proceedings so that a separate women-only setting is beneficial for the women, but how does that make a women-only event OK if there is NO event for the men?

152 - you had me at "wherein." might want to check your heterosexual boyfriend's sock drawer for nonconforming toys. also, if he calls himself your "heterosexual boyfriend," it might be a sign of trouble.

I agree women should be included in these important recruiting events. I am going to take the two female summers down the hall from me to a strip club tonight. I will not stand by in silence and let this injustice continue.

Sorry 83/152, I don't mean to cut you off. If you wanted to say more then please by all means do so.

- 142/159

perhaps it should also be noted in a follow-up post that it is believed at least one associate went home after the sordid affair and jerked off vigorously, further degrading women.

170 - Wow, this story gets worse and worse. It could bring down the mighty Cadwalader. Will all female clients direct their work elsewhere?

My V10 NYC firm is now organizing an additional summer associate event. We are going to stage a woman's rights protest in front of Cadawalder's NY office tomorrow at 5PM. Who's with me?

155- You go that right. How about The Ball on Wilshire in Santa Monica? And the Firm Halloween costume parties with the staff were the stuff of legend. I hear a train whistle even now.

I digress. This is and is not news. To think that associates would take summers to a strip club in this day and age, and it would be OK, is beyond stupid. The associates are the ones who should be disciplined. Dumb fucks!

On the other hand, spending some time with your work comrades at a strip joint is way overrated. Some d-bag will always spill the beans as to who got what from whom. Same thing with bachelor parties. That how this little late night romp got out, too.

So, Bullwinkle, the lesson of this story is this- party with your friends, and keep your work buddies at arm's length until you have dirt on them, or they prove they can be trusted.

Is Cadwalader taking SAs to a Mets game is a sign of the week economy?

174: Is your comment a sign of your week language skills?

In 2001 As an ad hoc undergrad intern at a finance boutique, my boss took me to a strip joint in Miami after we cut out of work early to watch a big game. We met friends and former colleagues for the game at a sports bar and then the idea got put out there. A bit eye-brow raising in retrospect, but it makes for a fairly amusing story now with the details I'll not divulge here.

I think what gets lost in this discussion is why ordinary men occasion strip clubs. 8 years later and after my own bachelor party in las vegas, I realized some men go there for the absolute hilarity of the enterprise and the unique comraderie of a male-only environment where you get to see boobs with no strings attached. The taboo-nature of the excursion only adds to the appeal. Like cigarettes and cursing.

That said, I understand women who might object to the idea of male colleagues going somewhere they're not expected to attend. However, the problem isn't that gender-specific events occur, the problem is that we live in a culture where we're required to be opposed to the idea that men and women might enjoy spending time away from each other. Only in a world of post-modern education could one be shocked, shocked that men and women are different.

This summer, the female SAs in my class are going to a female-only event in a week or two. A knee-jerk reaction would be to shriek that its unfair. But it's only as unfair as mother nature and sexual selection, and the history of the legal profession. Avoid the moral blame-throwing and just let people have a good time.

As much as I agree that there may have been some poor judgment in the decision to go---I'm sure beers at the ballgame had nothing to do with it---the worse judgment was our PC whistleblower, who stabbed her potential future colleagues in the back by airing out the firm's laundry to the reading public. If you don't want to work with colleagues who don't share your condescending and judgmental view of strippers, that's one thing. Choosing this method of trying to make people conform to your world-view is quite another.

also, boobs are awesome. who doesn't like boobs?

This is a non-story, and I am disappointed that ATL would bother blogging about it. It's also very upsetting that posts like this exist, discouraging people from enjoying a little honest fun in their own free time.

Women in the workplace = bad for America

175: Is your comment a sign of your weak spelling skills?

Guest here, this is a non-story. I think it is silly on multiple fronts. I think it is really silly that the summer in question felt it necessary to tip off ATL. For what purpose? To get your co-workers in trouble for potentially sending an exclusionary message? I think a lot of your co-workers will be sending you exclusionary messages very soon since they will have little to know interest in hanging out with somebody that might tattle on them at a moment's notice.

I've got nothing against a good piece of ass. What red blooded guy doesn't enjoy looking at some fine ass walking around the room and entertaining the customers. On the other hand, I've never understood the intense facination that attorneys seem to have for going to strip bars when they are out of town on business. Personally, I function much better if I get to bed before midnight, without being totally drunk on my ass. But this doesn't seem to matter to the ass chasers who stay out until 3 or 4 in the morning, falling into bed drunk back at the hotel. They laugh about at breakfast, but I can tell you that the guys who sleep well usually run circles around them the next day. And, after all, winning is what we get paid to do when we're out of town, at least most of the time.

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True story:
When I was a summer associate, an outing was proposed to a strip club - to be paid for by each attendee individually. The invitation was made to all summers at a particular event (male and female).

And the invite/idea was a by a female attorney of the firm (a straight woman, if that matters to your sensibilities). A mixed group attended.

Now - was this offensive? Inappropriate? An effing awesome rocking time? (as for question 3 - yes, it was)

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

170 FTW

"that the firm not only tolerated but supported the objectification / degradation of women that occurs at these venues"
I don't get it. Are law firms not supposed to do this?

This event reflects poorly on all involved except the tipper. It reflects poorly on CWT and on the associates and summer associates involved. Yes, visiting a strip club is completely legal. However, in this type of environment where work is scarce, lawyers do themselves (and their firms) no favors when they do things like this. These types of antics might not have any effect on clients, but they're much more likely to have a negative effect than a positive one. CWT won't get hired explicitly because of this story, but there's a decent chance that CWT might *not* get hired because of a story like this. Am I saying that this will happen for certain? No. I'm saying that if anything, the story will cut against CWT. And in an economy like this, that's the last thing that any firm needs.

Whether these antics will have any repercussions inside CWT is anyone's guess. I'm sure that there are people at CWT that find this distasteful. However, based on what I know of CWT, I'm pretty sure there are others at CWT who will offer "boys will be boys" responses (and perhaps privately offer "stop whining b*tch" or "why don't you strip for me").

This is not to say that men don't have a right to feel upset at being excluded from women-only events at their firms. However, I suggest that they man up and ask for mentoring and business development advice rather than complain about the women-only events. Women are underrepresented in biglaw and men just have to deal with the fact that such events aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Why assume all male summer associates would like that sort of thing? Lots of guys don't find objectifying women sexy or an erotic situation, even if they are attracted to women. And by the way, some guys are gay and prefer men. So in addition to excluding women, it might make some men uncomfortable and feel excluded, too.

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176 is dead-on. The fact that women are attractive to men is a fact of nature, it's chemical, and is for the purpose of perpetuating our species. Men and women are different for a reason. Embrace it.

The real travesty here is that some of these women are making as much money as you are working 3 nights a week.

189 - they probably don't like baseball either.

Let's include EVERYONE all the time, because otherwise someone's feelings might get hurt. :((((

142/etc., okay. I believe I understand where you're coming from, and I certainly understand why you feel the way you do, i.e., that women-focused events are exclusionary in the same way that male attorneys and summers going to a strip club is exclusionary. But I think there are a couple of key points:

First, I disagree that they are directly comparable. While it is certainly open for discussion the extent to which strip clubs may degrade women or not, etc., going to a strip club is a fundamentally different event than a networking or mentorship outing. The rules are different. A strip club encourages unprofessional behavior -- you do not disagree, do you? I'm not saying there is anything inherently wrong with unprofessional behavior, as there is certainly a time and place that such behavior is appropriate. But an outing like this is fundamentally different from an official firm networking event. Now, yes, both can be exclusionary. But one is of the sort that will foster casual camaraderie between male summers and attorneys, whereas this sort of camaraderie is far less likely to arise in the stiff, stilted firm-sanctioned format superimposed over networking events for women. I'm not rejecting your experience that the women-focused firm events are exclusionary. But I am saying that the sorts of experiences you're being excluded from are very different from the sorts of experiences I'm being excluded from. And I do think this is relevant to the discussion, the same way it would be relevant if there were a group of women at the firm who, say, supported a bill to chemically castrate all sex offenders, no matter the offense (and organized a group outing with some female summers to go to a rally).

As a sub-point to this, I can assure you (as a woman who has been to such networking events) that these events are WAY less helpful to my career than more casual get-togethers (usually involving alcohol, to be honest) with more senior female attorneys. Context matters when it comes to getting ahead. In many ways, these events are pretty useless -- and yet, as a female summer or female associate, you're practically required to attend these things (lest you appear not to be interested in advancing your career). They generally consist of pointing out a handful of female partners who have young children, as if to say "see? Our firm doesn't discriminate!" and then talking about one of these days doing actual substantive stuff to help women at the firm (almost none of which ever gets done -- and much of which consists of assuming that "women" means "women who want to get married and have babies," which is an obviously sexist assumption). Oh, and occasionally throwing in that you need to be careful not to dress like a slut, because then people won't respect you. Which is code for "don't have big breasts."

So I guess what I'm saying is, you're being excluded from events where (almost inevitably, at one point or another) women talk about how to balance having a career and being a mom, and how not to let the fact that you have breasts stand in the way of having a career, which is boring and completely useless, given that the single greatest predictor of success in a law firm is which partners like you. On the off-chance a particularly powerful female partner attends (unlikely, since there are very few of those), it could be a useful chance to try sucking up to her. But given that the vast majority of partners who really "matter" in a firm are men anyway, you're really much better off sucking up to a male partner at one of the gazillion gender-neutral summer events the firm will have. As a male, you are simply more favored for succeeding at this task. Senior male partners tend to look at young associates and see either a younger version of themselves, or their children/grandchildren. I'm generalizing here, but isn't it possible that it requires a little more work to (and thus, it is less likely to occur that you) see yourself in someone who is different from you in some respect you view as fundamental (such as gender, race, religion, etc.)?

Second, and related, women-focused events are a bandaid on a pre-existing wound. It isn't about excluding men or even about advancing women strictly speaking, so much as correcting the present effects of past wrongs. Now, the legitimacy of the intent and efficacy of these methods are both up for debate -- but I think it's important to remember where the events come from in the first place. If there were no golf course deals, there would be no reason for group mani/pedis with the boss. The women-only events are on some level a *reaction to* the very sorts of events the summer in this story objected to. Reacting back *against* these events only perpetuates the cycle. The fact is that law firms have historically discriminated against women (I am assuming you do not dispute this fact). In the 80s and 90s, people finally sat down and figured out, "okay, we're not okay with this fact. Discriminating against women is not okay, so we're going to try to remedy the present consequences of that past discrimination through mentoring and networking programs aimed at women." Frankly, I wouldn't mind if firms got rid of these programs altogether, given how utterly useless and often condescending they are. But firms do it because someone somewhere decided that this was a good way to gauge how "woman-friendly" a law firm is, rather than looking at actual statistics like how well it retains and promotes women, and how happy and respected women at the firm report feeling. So if a firm DOESN'T have women-focused events, someone will ask "why don't you have women-focused events? Don't you care about women?" and the firm is suddenly known as the sexist firm that doesn't care about women's advancement.

It's stupid, but it's the way things have evolved. So now female summers get to be put through this joke of an event that's supposed to somehow help them, when what would be far MORE helpful would be the existence of, say, more informal mentoring opportunities for women. Which, unfortunately, is something that ONLY happens organically and will spring up, far more subtly and less measurably, from a firm's overall culture (something that likewise cannot be dictated from the top down, at the end of the day).

And I think that's where it kind of comes full circle. There is no "world" for women to escape to that is equivalent to a strip club for men. A strip club is the original boy's club. It's a place where you go and don't have to worry about whatever the perceived pressures of gender equality are, you can just relax and have paid scantily-clad women cater to your fantasy of a bygone era where women were relegated to certain limited segments of society. The reason women don't have anything comparable is obvious: we've never had a historical period in which we have called the shots. There are no "good old days" for us. There is no "girl's club," because the world has always been more or less run by men. There is no "escape" for us to some club where we can pretend the pressures of feeling put-upon by the men in our workplaces seem to melt away, because we have no conception of such a hypothetical universe. It's an ever-present shadow of doubt and frustration from which there is no special club escape. Our entire history is one of male rule -- I'm not even talking in a feminist-theory, "the patriarchy" sense of it; I'm talking literally and actually, men have ruled the world pretty much forever -- and certainly it is indisputable that the have ruled the United States for its entire life so far. Female politicians, female judges, female partners are relatively new phenomena. We have NEVER been in a position in which we were free from the worries that come from having men in positions of equality and authority over us. In other words, there IS no female equivalent to a strip club. We have pale imitations and corporate-sponsored PR stunts, but at the end of the day, we have nothing to compare with it.

Yeah, I know this sounds melodramatic. I'm posting it anyway in the slim hope that someone with some empathy might see what I'm trying to get at. I'm not saying there's something evil about looking at naked women or being attracted to naked women's bodies. Sex and sexual attraction are totally natural and completely unobjectionable facets of human existence, and I vehemently opposed all puritanical attempts to vilify sex or the human body in its natural state (this goes for both men and women, by the way). I'm saying that strip clubs don't exist in a vacuum, and pretending that they do only perpetuates the problems that make strip clubs problematic for some people in the first place.

Also, apologies for the length of the post. Regardless of whether or not you agree with me, I hope you will at least accept that this post was written in earnest and is not meant to inflame/flamebait or blame or judge anyone for anything, but rather to present a picture of the world from eyes different, perhaps, from those of the majority of commenters here, and maybe -- MAYBE? -- foster a spark of interest in a dialogue down the road? So, here's hoping.

Cheers,
83/etc.

For most people, strip clubs are not about getting sexually aroused, something which is probably contrary to (one of) the mistaken assumptions underlying the greivance here. Strip clubs are tacky places to laugh at yourself and your friends. Any enjoyment of the experience is mostly ironic. Of course there are always a couple of creepy guys that are deeply gratified by the experience and will be at the club everday (see Mickey Rourke, The Wrestler) but for the most part it's innocent fun.

The bigger point is that your co-workers are people who may have to trust you with their reputations and their careers at some point. At what point do you rat them out: When they do something unethical? Possibly. When they do something illegal? Probably. When they do something douchey? Never.

179- Reread the joke. You unfunny idiot.

What strip club did they go to? A classy one or someplace really dirty?

192 - you have won the "longest comment that no one will read" award. congrats.

It's really boring to see comparisons between (1) taking male summers to strip clubs; and (2) female associates going to get their nails done.

Nice try. Getting spa treatments (something our summers - male and female - used to get during the big summer outing) is pretty non-controversial and chatter about it the next day is not *that* annoying. On the other hand, nobody wants to hear the chatter about the stripper with the stain on her panties the next day at the office. It's just annoying. And trust me, word gets around mostly because the guys attending the event think the whole evening was "hilarious" (hee hee; I saw her titties). Glad you all enjoy boobies but taking summers to strip joints is considered pretty low class and douchey. Have a blast but...sorry, lots of male and female colleagues will think you are immature losers. Deal with it.

With respect, all these women need to shut up. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a good time at a strip club. The women there are well compensated.

I am so sick of all these ultra-sensitive liberals trying to ruin everyone's fun! Fuck, I just realized I miss Reagan more than ever!

193, I hear a LOT of guys who will say things like, "oh, I don't like strip clubs" or claim they just go there for laughs. But I don't get it -- if strip clubs are so lame and cheesy and seedy, and the only reason to go is for laughs, why not go to a comedy club? If guys really find strip clubs as lame as they claim to, why do they keep going back?

I'm sincerely curious.

lighten up. They should have just taken the chicks with them and given the male associates a real show

198-With respect, all these men who looking for acceptance of the strip club experience need to shut up. There's nothing illegal about "having a good time at a strip club" so go right ahead and do it. But if some colleagues think you're retarded about it (or that your summer event idea is unoriginal and stupid), don't bitch about it. Enjoy your titties but stop seeking validation on the ATL comment board.

197

201 -- I assure you, none of my male colleagues think I'm "retarded" for going to the occasional strip club. And, while we're on the subject of political correctness, it is highly offensive to use the term "retarded".

So let me get this straight: frequenting legal establishments for a good time is frowned upon; but insulting the mentally handicapped is 100% cool? Hey, I'm happy if all is well in you're liberal-elite head!

192: couldn't find anything to do with a women's studies degree other than law school?

202, I think 201 was saying that if other people want to call you retarded or think you're retarded for doing something lame and unoriginal, it's even more lame and retarded for you to bitch about them doing it. You don't have to be liberal to find entitled hypocrisy grating.

Personally, I just think you're retarded for not knowing the difference between "your" and "you're."

198, you have completely missed the point. If a summer went on his own to a strip club, it would not be posted on ATL. The problem is that associates took their firm's summers to a strip club. That is a no-no.

204, is this not also true of the whiner who went tattling?

If you want to be shady and backstab your colleagues to a gossip website and/or justify and defend such "lame and unoriginal" behabvior, then don't whine when people criticize you for it.

Purposely instigating bad press about your co-workers and employer because your delicate sensibilities have been offended by nothing more than people engaging in off time activities you don't approve of is behavior worthy of scorn.

And by the way, for everyone claiming that women going to a male strip event would be dealt with more swiftly and harsly, I think we all know that's false. In fact, were women attorneys and SA's to do this, the firm would likely not care and most people would be saying "its only fair".... so get over your hypocritical selves.

206, about your last paragraph: Um, no, the female attorneys would get in trouble. Strip clubs are inappropriate for firm 'events' (even if the firm isn't paying or encouraging it), period.

202-I assure you that some of your colleagues (male and female) think you're retarded. Like I said, if you want to hit titty bars...have at it. No reason to explain it, brag about it, or whine when people think it's tiresome and lame. My neighbors think it's really "cool" and "funny" to get sitters, get hammered in their basement and play "Guitar Hero" and...talk about it the next day. I think they are lame. I think you are lame.

Carry on.

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Is slut CWT associate still there or has she moved on to greener pastures?

207, that is patently false. They would not be in trouble for going to a strip club after hours. You may wish it were so, so then you wouldn't clearly be full of it, but its not true.

Female attorneys are well within their rights to see chipendales, and no firm is going to reprimand them for it.

And your argument is dishonest, I never said they could go to a strip club as a "firm event".... strawman. This was not sponsored by the firm and occurred well outside normal work hours.

192 -- I found your comments interesting and insightful. They raised some issues that, as a man, I had not previously considered. Even so, I do not agree with the CWT SA's statements that going to the strip club necessarily "send[s] a message of exclusion to women" (nor do I agree with her assertion that strip clubs are necessarilly degrading to women). Certainly, a preplanned, firm-sanctioned, boys-only outing to the strip club would send a message of exclusion. But not all ad hoc events send that message. So I've created some scenarios below. I'm curious to know which ones you believe cross the line. Assume that none of the events are sanctioned by the firm or preplanned and that the summer associates know that none of the events will be reimbursed by the firm.

After a few beers at an official summer associate event . . .

(a) a couple of male associates invite some male summer associates to go to a bar for drinks after the event;

(b) a couple of male associates invite some male summer associates over to their apartment for drinks;

(c) a couple of male associates invite some male summer associates to their apartment for drinks and, after arriving at the apartment, the guys collectively decide to watch porn;

(d) a couple of male associates invite all the male summer associates to their apartment for drinks and, while still at the firm event, they decide to watch porn at the apartment;

(e) a couple of male associates invite some male summer associates to go to a bar after the firm event and, on the way to the bar, they decide to go to a strip club instead;

(f) a couple of male associates invite some male summer associates to go to a strip club after the firm event.

Would your answer be different if all male summer associates were invited to these events and all female summer associates were excluded? Would your answers change if all summer associates were invited?

For the record, I don't see anything necessarily wrong with any of the above scenarios (though if all the male summer associates were invited and the female summer associates were excluded, or if all summer associates were invited to all of the events, then I'd see an issue with some of the events). I think the keys are (1) whether the event appears to be firm sponsored rather than some friends hanging out in their spare time and (2) whether classes of people are excluded -- as opposed to only a few "friends" being included (or classes of people improperly included in events that might cause them to feel sexually harassed).

206, I don't think the summer is here, so I'm not sure whom the comment was directed at. She isn't here getting upset about people calling her lame and unoriginal or whatever.

211 - "Female attorneys are well within their rights to see chipendales [sic], and no firm is going to reprimand them for it."

LOL. First of all, going to chipendales is like so 1980's and nobody would EVER go there. Second, nobody's arguing that someone is "within their right" to go somewhere. Trust me, if I took some summers to a "Chippendales" show, plenty of folks would say "That's so stoopid". Same for your strip club "adventure." On a sadder note, may they both rest in peace:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xu9mx_patrick-swayze-chippendale_dating

213, I said the summer herself, and/or the people here defending and justifying her behavior.

Are you unable to read?

And do you know the Summer isn't on here commenting? No. Are you perhaps the Summer, if so that would explain why you appear "upset about people calling her lame and unoriginal or whatever."

214, point taken, sorry I'm not aware of the hip male strip show these days.

Secondly, people indeed ARE saying the CWTers were not within their right to go the show. Granted they're not saying its illegal, but they're saying its not okay to do, or that doing so is somehow opening themselves up to retaliation or punishment from an employer. I dunno about you, but if I can do something, but doing so is gonna have some angry mob get me fired, then practically speaking, they're claiming I have no right to do the thing.

Also, saying something is "stoopid" is not the same as basically implying workplace harrassment/exclusion and is definitely not the same as anonymously reporting the event to a gossip rag. You want to tell your friend their stupid for going to a strip club, great, but that's not the same as what's happening here.

A few points:

* Great job, 87.

*188 made a salient point that everybody is ignoring.

* All of you saying "putting aside whether or not strip clubs are degrading ... " have successfully managed to completely miss the point. That's probably why so many people are making the obviously faulty analogy between inviting males to a strip club and inviting females on a shopping spree. You can't "put aside" the denigration of women issue. If you think strip clubs are degrading to women, then this after hours trip wasn't just exclusionary towards female (and some male) summers, it was aggressively insulting to people. It'd be like an associate inviting all of the summers to come hang out at a skin head meeting after the Mets game.

* Personally, I don't like strip clubs, but I don't think they are degrading. Sure, they are objectifying, but no more so than cocktail waitresses strutting around a Vegas casino -- and I like cocktail waitresses :).

* But, a junior associate who had sense of empathy for another person's perspective should have been able to easily figure out that the event was not appropriate. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. Empathy isn't a bad thing in social situations.
--Elie

BIG DEAL!
I went to a few strip clubs with the "boys," and it was boring. I thought the cocktail waitresses were better looking. How can it be degrading? The women choose to work at the club, and the men choose to go watch with a hard on.

I'm not a lesbian, but I would prefer to look at naked women than naked men.

Who wants to stare at ugly balls all night.

212, thank you so much for taking the time to read my novel and for your considered response. I really appreciate your approaching the subject with an open mind.

I think your last paragraph hits the nail right on the head. It's a tricky and fuzzy line as to what constitutes a "firm event" and what doesn't, because, like I said before, real mentoring is inherently organic. Young associates are going to naturally get along better with some summer associates than with others, and sometimes those natural alliances will fall along a traditional gender binary. And there's nothing inherently problematic about that. I think you're right that it does become problematic when something seems to be closely attached to the firm, and when it seems to be more blatantly exclusionary on a group basis.

And, honestly, in my experience, if a young associate is going to do something and is thinking of inviting summers along, it's almost always because the firm will pay for it if you bring summers. Occasionally associates will actually invite summers for something completely unrelated to work -- but because associates know that upsetting a summer can mean pissing off the firm, they are likely to be on their best behavior around summers, which means they'll have less fun, which means they're less likely to invite summers to events the firm won't pay for (no real benefit combined with extra constraints on behavior). Mercenary, sure, but that's the incentive structure firm recruiting programs generally cultivate.

So, some male associates inviting some male summers out to a bar or even to a strip club isn't necessarily bad, like you said. But I think a lot depends on context, and I also think that the attitudes of the guys in question can make a big deal. For instance, if the guys in question had attitudes like many of the commenters here (e.g., "tits or gtfo," "women are such whiners," "how dare you so much as question the wisdom of going to a strip club you liberal feminazi cunts") I think I'd find the whole scenario more problematic, simply by virtue of the fact that I would be uncomfortable working with men who clearly don't respect women. I don't think all men who visit strip clubs disrespect women. But some do.

Anyway, all this is to say that I guess I'm not even necessarily saying that what happened at Cadwalader was capital W Wrong -- but it was probably at some level ill-advised, and I don't necessarily fault the summer associate for feeling excluded and talking to management in what I honestly thought was a non-whiny, professional manner (I've heard summers gripe about WAY less legitimate complaints, and in a far more entitled manner). But I also don't fault the firm for taking the prudent "we don't condone it but no one is getting in trouble" approach either. I think that, absent actual disrespect of the women present, the firm should pretty much stay out of it, while making clear that it wasn't an official firm event (because otherwise it would have been a bigger deal).

I think that definitely a lot of women could calm down about the "oh noes strip clubs" stuff (at the end of the day, if coworkers going to a strip club is your biggest problem in life I envy you) -- but also that a lot of men could calm down about the "going to a strip club is my God-given right and no one anywhere ever should so much as question any aspect of it" too. I think there's a middle ground where we can look at what happened and say there were aspects of it that could reasonably make some women uncomfortable, and that this was probably worth taking into consideration, without saying that the associates and summers who went were terrible pigdog misogynists who hate women.

So, now people who enjoy strip clubs = skinheads just because some people find the former offensive? I'm sorry, but a concept of OBJECTIVE right and wrong exists, and there's simply no reasonable / rational (in other words, a view that we should respect) way that the two can be equated. If someone's opinion is that subjectively off, it's a hypersensitivity, and it's that person's problem / responsibility to adjust to the rest of us.

I understand the role that empathy should play and I'm not saying that having a strip club event (even if informal) was necessarily the wisest of moves by the CWT partners. That having been said, someone being absolutely viscerally offended by that to the extent that it's comparable to skinhead extremism is PC gone amuck, and hypersensitive enough of a position that it's that person who needs to adjust, not the rest of society.

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220, lol. Your "objective" is someone else's "subjective," and someone else's "subjective" to you is "objective" to them. Calling your point of view "objective" does not, by itself, make it so.

Imperfect comparisons are not wholly meritless simply by virtue of being imperfect. Reasoning by analogy is a useful lawyer skill. Try it out.

The tension between the sexes is already high and so is the competition and anxiousness felt by summer associates. Why fan the flames with something as meaningless as a trip to a titty bar? It's not worth it.

Also, some female attorneys will feel alienated, whether it's right or wrong for them to feel that way. A lot of them. So why insist on the activity in question if its value is so low?

In terms of alienation...maybe I can explain a bit (though it's hard to put my finger on it). At a former work place, male senior male associates and junior partners would "grab a few of the juniors" and head out to a strip club. In their mind, they were doing nothing "wrong." Problem is, those particular senior associates and junior partners didn't balance things out with other events that included women junior associates or summers. For some of them.....the couple of times at the strip club was the ONLY event in which they participated. So in my mind, as a junior female associate I felt I didn't have the same chance at exposure to these associates and partners.

Another issue.....in the mind of the person "grabbing a few summers to take to a strip club", it's not a big deal and they don't see it in context. Example - one junior partner at my old firm used to occasionally "round up" a few guys to hit a strip club around 9 or 10 pm. Fine, but it did feel funny for the office to empty out and for them all to wave at me as I sat at my desk alone at 10 pm. Sometimes I felt that some of them made sure to let me know WHERE they were going in an almost antagonistic sense.

If I'm crazy for feeling the way I did...then so be it. But tons of other female attorneys felt the same way and I'm actually pretty laid back about gender issues. You can call women names for feeling funny about the issue, but....it's an issue, it causes a divide (look at the number of comments on here) so why bother including it among summer associate events (especially if it's so silly, as men say)? Also, it may be "legal" to hang out at a strip club but professionally, it doesn't help you. Bottom line: just go to strip clubs with your NON-WORK buddies and leave the summers out of it, already.

222: You seem to be suggesting that there's absolutely no concept of objectivity then. We should treat strip club patrons just as we treat white supremacists and neo-Nazis who are actively spreading hate and accosting minorities, merely because there's a fringe group of people who equate the two? Did you really just make this argument?

There's a difference between an imperfect comparison and a comparison that hyperbolic at best and outright ridiculous at worst. Say, I really hate people who jaywalk -- I think it's totally immoral, it violates the law (!), and it offends my subjective sensibilities. Jaywalkers are like skinheads! But 222, you're the one who said that my opinions could be objective, even if they're just a little imperfect!

Yes, 224, that is precisely what I was saying.

Brilliant legal reasoning skills with this one.

Why are chicks so wordy? Jesus, either put some food in your mouths or a cock. Either way, shut up.

113 - irregardless isn'TTT a word.

226=Proof of the continuing divide.

There is nothing wrong with seeing some nice round tits in front of your face. And if your a chick go to the male nuddie bar and see shlong, its okay don't feel bad, wanting to seeing tits or a dick is human nature. So long as it is off the books it is okay. Plus if lawyers want to play with the big boy bankers dropping some coin at the strippers is par for the course.

Thanks 83 and others. Good luck to you all. I actually think we agree much more than you realize.

Elie, since you quoted me I actually disagree with you most of all. If the skeevy nature of strip clubs is the issue, then you have the perverse result that the more professional the setting, the more appropriate it is for male lawyers to be inviting male subordinates out to socialize. I'm not condoning going to strip clubs, I just didn't want to get caught in a bottomless rabbit hole on that issue. The more salient question to me is whether gender-specific conduct is exclusionary generally in law firms in 2009. Whether it concerns pedicures or strippers or IT-industry boyfriends or women's retreats isn't important to me. Hopefully that makes sense.

Anyway, enjoy the summer.

- 142

there's nothing offensive about strip clubs....if you weren't so ugly, you wouldn't be offended....besides, they get PAID....people "objectify" themselves for money all the time (e.g., lawyer, consultant, etc.)....this one time at band camp, i ate a worm for $5 - got me one big league chew and 50 bazooka joe's!!! the worm don't taste so bad when you can blow the biggest bubble of ALL TIME!

83, normally I read through all of the comments to see whether someone has already done my job of smacking down a stupid comment. But I'll make an exception in your case. And while I'm here, I'll address some other points too.

First, let me say that I'm an American of African descent so I understand that law is, indeed, an old boys network. But that doesn't mean that we should prevent all forms of bonding. As to your first point. "[S]he did not state, specifically, that *she* was offended." There are only three reasons to tell firm management: (i) she was offended, (ii) she was speaking for someone or someones who were offended, or (iii) she is a tattle tale. In my experience, the simplest explanation is normally correct. Point (i) is the simplest explanation here. Although points (ii) and (iii) are also plausible, they do not paint the summer associate or the class of women summer associates in a better light.

I'll grant that male colleagues should never go to a strip club if, and only if, you'll concede that female colleagues should never go get pedicures, get manicures, go shopping, or otherwise attend events that typically appeal to women but not men. I don't get upset when my white colleagues attend a hockey game, or my hispanic colleagues speak Spanish after hours. And if the women don't like it, they should engage with the men. When was the last time a series of female summers/junior associates invited some of their male colleagues to lunch, to drinks after work, to a ball game, to play golf, or to any of those other activities that help develop professional relationships?

And men who complain that the women are uptight about complaining have a point. The other women in the summer class should be just as mad at the tattle tale. I, for one, would be wary of developing a professional relationship with a woman who complained about my going to a strip club after hours. Who knows what else she might complain about. And if I had to limit interaction with the majority of the women in the summer class, I would merely consider that an acceptable tactical loss.

Now, 83, go back to your undergrad psyche course and leave the grown-ups be.

Ok, 83. I read the rest of the comments and since you have subsequently decided to treat the male gender with some civility, I'll grant you some in return.

I understand that women have never been in positions of power and may not have an institution similar to the strip club where they get to live in that bygone era to which you refer in one of your later posts. And why would they want to live in that bygone era. I, for one, know that I probably wouldn't survive if I had to live in the world as it was 50 years ago. I certainly empathize with that situation, and disagree with the "tits or GTFO attitude." But also understand the male point of view re: the tattle tale. If you're a lawyer, you should be able to see both sides and understand why people might just get upset at a woman who complained about a strip club outing rather than (if she was really concerned about being excluded) doing something about it.

- 232

Layoffs?

219:

"I think I'd find the whole scenario more problematic, simply by virtue of the fact that I would be uncomfortable working with men who clearly don't respect women. I don't think all men who visit strip clubs disrespect women. But some do."

I think one of the reasons people on here are so angry is that the SA who tipped off ATL is essentially trying to shame these guys by making their private behavior public.

In her own way, this SA is herself prejudiced against these male attorneys. She automatically concluded that their trip to the strip club was sexist (otherwise she wouldn't have tipped off ATL). As you mentioned, they could be guys who visit strip clubs but do not disrespect woman. However, that wasn't good enough for her. In her mind, their visit to a strip club automatically meant they had done something harmful to the female summer associates. Her tip was itself a pre-judgment of these men.

The issue should be how these guys behave in the workplace, not outside work. I don't see how your private, legal behavior should always be your employer's business--especially when, but for someone's tip to a blog, that behavior would have remained private.

Say I run into a female colleague at a bar and overhear her complaining to girfriends about men in general. Is it really fair for me to go complain to HR and accuse her of sexism when she has been nothing but kind and helpful to me? I don't think so. She was just blowing off steam. What's the big deal?

Some commenters on here have suggested that because these guys are work friends, their activities together fall within the purview of the firm. That's stretching it a bit. At what point do we get to be free from our employer's own interests and just live our lives?

My point is simply that there should be at least some separation between our work lives and private lives. It's exhausting to have to live by workplace norms 24/7. Sometimes you gotta let the freak out.

@83. I hate you. And not just any Lane Bryant, the "big girls" section of LB. Who gives a shit if some people feel it's exclusionary? Do guys whine about not being invited to spa day? My prior experience with strip clubs is that guys often enjoy going with (non-girlfriend) girls because strippers tend to be more free with girls and the guys hope to catch the windfall from the special attention. If female SAs felt left out, it very well could have been their own doing.

As Artie Lange would say, "Waaaaahhhhhhhh!"

So Miss(es) 83, shut your pie hole! Tootles :)

How do you know it was a female--not a male--summer associate that provided the tip? How do you even know it was a summer?

How do you know s/he thought it was sexist?
It was reported because it wasn't appropriate.
The end.
Women may take up golf because they know bonding and the deals that come from it take place on the course,
but they aren't going to take up enjoying strip clubs to bond - it is an inappropriate place for the kind of bonding with summers that leads to job offers later.
That's the crux of the issue.
No-one cares if it isn't a work or pseudo work function.
Get over being mad you can't expense strip clubs anymore - the end.

I won't deny that the trip was inappropriate. But reporting a bunch of associates for taking a handful of summers out on the town (on their own dime) is a really shitty thing to do. Your tipster actually wants to get these associates fired. What a terrible person.

Pretty stupid for these guys to do this in this economy. They'll be at the top of the lay-off and no-offer lists.

SO STUPID. Shea is not "now known" as Citi. It is an ENTIRELY different field.

238 nailed it with:

"Women may take up golf because they know bonding and the deals that come from it take place on the course, but they aren't going to take up enjoying strip clubs to bond - it is an inappropriate place for the kind of bonding with summers that leads to job offers later. That's the crux of the issue.
No-one cares if it isn't a work or pseudo work function."

It's still a workplace environment for the summers. They are on a 2-month job interview, and in a terrible job market. Their interviewers (lawyers for the firm) invite them to a strip club, so there's pressure to go whether they want to or not, and not to be judgmental or complain. It's an after-party so they are all in work clothes probably, coming off a long day at work, blackberrries in hand... The firm should have set a policy against this well in advance. I'd be shocked if it hadn't. The lawyers who invited the summers are toast.

Let's face it, for most lawyers, the only thing that gets degraded is your wallet and your self-esteem. Most of these guys can't get laid in a whorehouse with a fistful of hundreds1

Can anyone explain to me why a group of purportedly straight men would want to go and get sexually aroused together as a group? What do you do with it? You don't have dates, and there aren't many women around in the place who legally can take care of it for you. Do you go DIY in the bathroom? Wait til you get home alone? Finish off with your buddies? Never could understand this.

The whole commotion this has caused is ridicilous. The fact that female attorneys at CWT want the people that attended this event fired is ridicilous. Don't they have better things to do with their time? I guess it's just an easy way to knock out a few men ahead of them.

yawn

It is incomprehensible to me that people on this board believe that the individuals who went to the strip club should not be disciplined. It is crystal clear the their actions were exclusionary, inappropriate and unprofessional. And, of course, exhibited a total lack of judgment.

248 - You can't be serious. So everyone that goes to an event must go straight home? What if they went to a seafood restaurant after? Is that exclusionary to those that don't eat seafood? No more steak dinners! There may be vegans amongst us! They went to a legal establishment on their own free time. We live in a society where people are way too concerned with what other people do.

249 - I hope your post was intended to merely provoke me, because, if not, then you are a moron, and retarded. I do not care what you do on your own free time, Spicoli; however, if you, as a representative of my firm, do anything with summer associates that I am trying to recruit, then it is OUR free time and you will act accordingly during OUR time. Now give me that pizza.

Shea is not now known as Citi Field. They tore Shea down and built a new stadium next door, called Citi Field. Nerds.

Shea is not now known as Citi Field. They tore Shea down and built a new stadium next door, called Citi Field. Nerds.

Strip clubs are not for summer associate or any kind of work-related outings. It is creepy that co-workers agreed to go there. Work and sex should not mix unless you are sleeping with someone in the office (even then, keep it private please.) Wouldn't you rather go to a strip club with your friends or significant other?

The baseball game was the work outing. The strip club was friends going out together after. I've left family parties to go out drinking with my friends after. Does that mean my parents condoned what we might have done that night? No, of course not, but whatever, I'm an adult. Law firms don't own the time of their employees 24/7. Strip clubs are legal. They didn't get hookers. Get over it.

People - stop trying to make analogies; it only makes you look dumb. Law firms do not own your time; they cannot stop you from doing anything you want to do. However, if you tarnish the firm's reputation or if you engage in unprofessional conduct with the firm's recruits, then it is reasonable to expect the firm to discipline you.

Enough with this, though. I am tired of fighting with you Lilliputians. I encourage all of you to take all the summers to strip clubs over the holiday weekend, and then tell us about it on Monday. And if you think it is acceptable, please publicize the names of each individual who went and the firm. If any of you actually believe what you are saying, put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, shut up.

That's the thing 255. It's nobody's business what someone does on their own time.
We live in too big of a PC world. It's terrible. People are always crying about what the person next to them is doing. I think people should worry about themselves.

256 - Since that will never happen, we have to stop living in fantasy world and face reality. That means you get in trouble if you take summer associates to a strip club. I agree that it SHOULD be ok and people SHOULD mind their own business, but that will never happen. People love to take cheap shots at successful companies and successful people.

Many, many lawyers (including myself) have made tremendous sacrifices to make their firms and their practices successful. I will not tolerate a handful of dumbasses tarnishing my firm's reputation and jeopardizing the decades of hard work that I have put into my career just so they can get their rocks off. Not only is it unprofessional behavior, it is selfish and childish. I need to protect what I have built, and I would not want those people working at my firm.

John Teer and a bunch of the other Cadwalader Charlotte guys used to take the male summers to the strip club multiple times each summer. I wonder if that's why they're no longer with the firm?

JT pulled multiple duties in Afghanistan and deserved a few indiscretions. Plus, they were discreet. And no, that is not why they are not still there.

By the way, do not publish people's names on this site you fuckwad.

257: I think you make a great point. However, it isn't just these guys' trip to a strip club that dings the firm. It is that someone decided to leak their trip to above the law. This wouldn't be a "scandal" without that person's eagerness to embarrass the firm and the individuals who went to the club.

You would not want people who frequent strip clubs at your firm. Similarly, I wouldn't want someone so eager to embarrass people at mine.

How much do you want to bet that the strip club summers receive no offer and the strip club associates get axed in the upcoming CWT layoffs this month?

If those associates do get axed and the summers get no-offered, we should offer a reward to whoever outs the person who tipped off ATL.

232, where do you work?

"I don't get upset when my white colleagues attend a hockey game, or my hispanic colleagues speak Spanish after hours. And if the women don't like it, they should engage with the men. When was the last time a series of female summers/junior associates invited some of their male colleagues to lunch, to drinks after work, to a ball game, to play golf, or to any of those other activities that help develop professional relationships?"

All these chicks do is invite the fresh meat out. I wish some of these chicks would invite me out!

192's response was well said, well thought, and well written - very insightful. I am embarrassed for those of my gender that would respond to that with knee-jerk misogyny.

"we should offer a reward to whoever outs the person who tipped off ATL."

Maybe you should moderate or risk losing the people who honestly report the shady happenings at their firms?

260 - 257 here. Agree with you 100%. The deed is bad, but a snitch is worse. Unless, of course it is illegal or unethical.

It is quite obvious from all of the comments posted that the women who post are far more intelligent than the men.

That the women even try to communicate with the male life form here is amazing.

It is quite obvious from all of the comments posted that the women who post are far more intelligent than the men.

That the women even try to communicate with the male life form here is amazing.

267/268 - 257 here again. male. and I agree wih you 100%.

although, apart from these discussions, they are bat shit crazy.

The women must be smarter from all of their women only events that men can't attend. But God forbid you have a male only event the world would end. Being a white male pretty much makes you the devil these days.

Wow, the comments on this topic truly sound like they were written by a bunch of 12-year-olds. Calm down, boys. Have a cookie or something, then we'll talk about this like mature adults.

I agree with a previous comment:

"For those who don't understand why this is news:

Inability to understand things from others' perspectives = incompetent attorney

Law is still an old boy's club. Attorneys taking summers from their own firm to a strip club perpetuates that. That is why it is inappropriate."

Exactly. Anyone who doesn't see that needs to grow up, fast.

Layoffs today at CWT???

273 - Yup, unfortunately.

Ok! So I'm a female. Women stop whining; if you can't beat them join them especially if you work for a prestigious law firm like Cadwalder. For those women who have a guy, let him have his fun and go to the strip club because when he comes home, you can rep the benefits. Women, please get with the times, after all it is 2009.

T.

What's wrong with the law being an old boy's club? White men created our civilization. Women, and blacks, created nothing.

1. Women have networking events so they can get the equivalent of the assignments that male summers get when they go to strip clubs.
2. As a woman, i'm smart enough to know that working at a place like Cadwalader is only going to result in this kind of "thing" which is why I turned down their offer.

276: Seems to me that they ran civilization into the ground. Time for new management.

Go to the strip clubs ... get really really horny and then come home and bang me senseless. Girls, you all need to start looking at the silver lining here ... bunch a idiots

278, yeah, as I fought off the Mad Max horde on my way to the slave market for today's human sacrifice at my blood cult, I thought things had really gone to pot.

I mean, the price of virgin flesh is way, way up, and the human skins I peddle for extra shekels don't sell nearly as fast.

Not like the old days, for sure, when we had miracle cures, could fly anywhere in the world for next to nothing, lived well into our 80s, had time to read and watch TV. Etc. Etc.

You tell me the whites are to blame? Kill em all, sell their children to me, and let the blood gods have their souls.

You f-cking idiot.

Who cares? It's not like the SAs are 12!!

this is righteous! the female summers should strip while they wait for their deferred start dates!