Advice For Summers From Georgetown
Many summers can already see the writing on the wall. It’s going to be a no-offer party this fall. Law school career service professionals are trying to prepare their students for the inevitable.
The career services offices at Georgetown University Law Center sent around a very thoughtful letter, on Friday. Summer associates should take heed. Let’s get the obvious news out of the way first:
What are we hearing?I have been speaking with many of our close contacts in law firms across the country to assess what firms are planning in terms of post-graduate offers to their summer associates. Most firms indicate that they are waiting until the latest possible date to finalize their strategy so as to take into account as much market information as possible, but a few themes are emerging:
1. Unlike past years, many firms will not be making offers to all or almost all their summers. I hear of offer rates that range from 80% at the high end to 50% at the low end. Note that there is significant variation from firm to firm and region to region, and all the firms I speak with are trying their best to make offers to as many of their summer associates as possible.
2. Many firms are considering making deferred offers to some or all of their current summer associates to begin work sometime in 2011, and some have already announced that they will do so. Firms are not clear as to what stipend, if any, they will pay deferred associates in the coming year, and what conditions (e.g. working in the public sector) must be met to receive a stipend.
The class of 2009 thought that they were the “lost generation.” But would they want to switch places with the class of 2010?
After the jump, more bad news from GULC career services.
The Georgetown email notes a very interesting piece of information that we’ve been hearing as well:
3. Offer decisions will likely be made late this year, some weeks or months after the summer program ends, as firms assess their needs.
This could be the first sign that the oft criticized Biglaw hiring model is changing. It’s not just a question of how many offers firm will make, it’s also a question of when the firms will make their decisions. The class of 2010 might not know if they have even gotten an offer from their summer firms until months after the summer.
That sounds like a lot of rising 3Ls will be forced into 3L interviewing — to the extent that 3L interviewing exists this fall:
4. There will be very little opportunity to interview with a large firm as a 3L/4E. While 3L/4E interviewing at EIW is low even in strong markets, it is even lower in the current economic climate. If you review the list of firms currently registered to interview 3Ls during EIW 2009 on Symplicity, you will note that there are few employers and interview slots available for 3Ls/4Es.
Is there any news for rising 3Ls that won’t make them want to consider a career in the food services industry? Not really. But here’s Georgetown’s advice:
What does this mean for you?1. Make the most of your summer experience. We know that you are already working very hard to maximize your chances of getting an offer or deferred offer at the end of this summer. I thought the article titled “Some Words of Advice for Summer Associates of 2009” by Stephen Seckler at http://www.counseltocounsel.com/adviceforsummer09.pdf provides a good overview of how to approach your summer. I encourage you to read it if you haven’t already done so. Undoubtedly the standard of review of your work product and behavior is higher this year than it was for summer associates in recent years. If you have concerns about how to handle a particular situation at your firm, do not hesitate to seek advice from your OCS counselor or me.
2. View your summer as more than an opportunity to receive an offer. Some of the best performing summer associates may not receive offers, because of issues at the firm as a whole or a particular department’s inactivity. So think about the following questions: Are you developing relationships with lawyers at the firm who can act as a strong reference and speak with specificity about your work skills and behavior? Are you getting to know a range of lawyers, senior and junior, and gaining experience in a variety of substantive areas? Will you have a written product that you may be able to use as a strong writing sample (with permission of course)? Are you taking advantage of opportunities that the summer presents to develop your professional network of contacts inside and outside the firm? If the answer to any of these questions is no, or if you are unsure about how best to proceed, I encourage you to seek the guidance of any of the OCS counselors sooner rather than later.
3. Consider a judicial clerkship. State and federal judicial clerkships present excellent professional opportunities but will be more competitive this year than last. Waiting until you need a job to apply may prove too late - the first Law Center deadline for participating in the federal and relevant state court application process is July 15. Don’t overlook the D.C. local courts, specialty federal courts or other unusual but valuable opportunities like the 7th circuit staff attorney’s office clerkships. For detailed information access our clerkship resources at the OCS home page, and consult with your OCS counselor as soon as possible.
4. Educate yourself on government opportunities and application processes. Many government agencies hire entry-level lawyers through an Honors Program, and OPICS will be sending information on upcoming deadlines, the Government Interview Program, and additional resources about government hiring in the next couple of weeks. Note that the application process for government positions is significantly different than the process for applying to law firms, and educating yourself about the differences is critical to making yourself competitive for government opportunities. I encourage you to meet this summer with your OPICS counselor about government and public interest.
There is much more to consider, and as I noted at the beginning of this memo, we will be writing to you periodically with more information and advice. These are unusual times to say the least, and you will need to be proactive and persistent to position yourself as well as possible in an uncertain market. All the OCS and OPICS counselors stand ready to work with and assist you during these challenging times.
Challenging indeed.
A lot of people went to law school on the theory “you can do anything with a law degree.” It’s time to take that out for a spin. Good luck.
Earlier: Pls Hndle Thx: Is it Written in the Stars?
Cravath Announcement Causes Immediate Reaction At Harvard Law School




Comments
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First!!! Biatches
No, the class of 2010 has it worse.
No lube bitches!!!
Party's over, kiddies. Glad I jumped off the Biglaw train before it derailed right off the cliff. All I have are good memories of playing the firms to get good training and experience, and more $$$ than I was worth. Then I bailed. SUCKAHS!!!!!
as a class of 2011 (t10 top third) i am starting to feel we are better off than 09 and 10. yeeeesh.
what is 4E?
Class of 2011 - quit school now. You have been warned.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
You have to work hard to get a job offer. What a novel concept. Jobs don't fall from trees in the fall at the feet of law students.
Of course the news is bad for GULC students. Firms generally don't like to hire from part-time evening programs even during prosperous times.
GULC > Harvard, Yale, and all the rest ...
The ship be sinking. . . . .
4E = graduating evening student.
Can anyone tell me wtf CDDF means?
I just GULCed all over Mystal's moobs and then he giggled impishly.
Is this campus located in Georgetown, Guyana? I've never heard of this South American law school.
GULC grads who are sweaty and desperate were never going to be hired in the first place.
Take a cold shower and face reality; you will never be hired in today's economy.
HLS and YLS grads are all laughing at you; that is, when they're not scrambling to find a job themselves.
Sounds great to me. It's past time for BigLaw to collapse. Good for the legal system, good for the public, and good for garbage collectors. You know, garbage collectors make great money. You should give it a try.
Comments are pitifully low. How long before Lat is forced to make layoffs?
7- i don't think so.
-5
p.s. 4E? these people don't deserve jobs.
7- i don't think so.
-5
p.s. 4E? these people don't deserve jobs.
Is networking recommended in this economy?
And from this, the Biglaw Managing partner serial killer emerges.
-note- i am not the biglaw managing partner serial killer
Notice how Georgetown didn't say anything about lowering tuition.
Hey law school admins, tuition was based on the biglaw salary bubble and easy debt. Your TTT craphole was never worth 40k a year. Cut tuition you pieces of shit.
Those 4Es consist of MDs, PHDs, hill staffers, psychologists, government workers from various agencies such as the CIA, FBI, DOD, DOJ, and business owners. I know this throgh personal contacts with them. Georgetown started on the evening program. If anything, the evening division will help to prop up the school's employment statistics rather than drag it down, because these students usually already have significant business/legal contacts ever before arriving at school.
Wowie wow. Getting a school bureaucracy to act in summer!!! Major.
Wonder what firms those are deferring for a year that ATL knows nothing about --
14, no actually it's affiliated with Georgetown College in Kentucky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown_College_(Kentucky)
these stupid assholes shouldn't have hired more summers than they needed
Methinks 'tis time for a mustache ride? What say ye, gang?
#23 is correct. Georgetown has a diverse, talented, multi- degreed bunch in their evening program. And, hats off to them for telling it like it is up ahead. Which ultimately will be good for everybody. The climate until now was false and inflated on every level. I graduated in 2008. I am grateful that I got an offer, then a job in Biglaw, which I took and luckily still have. However, I have friends who graduated with me, top students, who were fired, six months in, from their top BigLaw firms. It seems they fired 1st years who didn't have roots in New York first. My buddies are still staggering around in disbelief with kids to support, mortgages to pay, student loan up the ---. My heart goes out all the students who had plans and directions they now have to quickly rethink and revise.
1. Reasonably rely on the firm to your detriment
2. ??????
3. PROFIT
Comment removed by moderator.
5 - wait until fall OCI, then tell me who's better off.
"A lot of people went to law school on the theory "you can do anything with a law degree." It's time to take that out for a spin. Good luck."
I don't really think this is true...SOME people may have done this, but I think a majority of students actually want to be lawyers.
These BIGlaw managing partners should resign, or commit suicide.
- Senator Charles Grassley
The end of Biglaw? Well, I don't really think that the end can be assessed as of itself as being the end because what does the end feel like? It's like saying when you try to extrapolate the end of the universe, you say, if the universe is indeed infinite, then how - what does that mean? How far is all the way, and then if it stops, what's stopping it, and what's behind what's stopping it? So, what's the end, you know, is my question to you.
either 2010 or 2011 has it the worst, depending on how the offers pan out at the end of this summer.
i would guess 2011 has it the worst because OCI is going to be a nightmare this year.
2009 doesn't have it all that bad. sure there are some deferrals, but not many rescinded offers yet, so at this point they got their jobs when the economy was hot and they can keep them for now and hopefully start when the economy picks up.
2012 is a crapshoot depending on how the legal market changes.
Thanks, 22. Schools are pretending that they have not had a massive stake in the financial bubble run-up. jacking up tuiion 10% every single year, not to mention the cost of their housing, their "fees" and various other costs of attending. Now they are going to pretend they have no role in helping the profession and their students deal with the aftermath. They just keep sending out letters asking me if I want to be in the "dean's cabinet" for 50 grand.
these biglaw partners should resign, or commit suicide.
-senator charles grassley
4E = students graduating from the #1 part-time law program in the country.
36, it's called supply and demand. Nobody is forcing the students to go to law school. If schools can't fill their ranks, tuition will go down. But nobody said law students are good at math and doing cost-benefit analysis, as shown by the number of people paying full fare to go to TTTs.
Why don't you complain to Louis Vuitton about how their bags are too expensive and hurting their customers while you're at it.
Right. You think any V25 firms that aren't already struggling with destroy their future recruitment prospects by no-offering a huge portion of the 2009 summer class?
Cravath already set the bar by basically guaranteeing offers to the current summers, with the caveat of 2011 deferment. Any firms that fail to at least match that will be screwed when the labor market returns to normal.
Firms that are already laying off associates and/or cutting/freezing salaries will be the firms that screw their current summer classes. It will happen, but more likely among the firms that clearly cannot compete with the V25 in billing rates and business development, yet pretend to be "top tier" by paying the same salaries and bonuses as Cravath.
And, as usual, they will not be competitive for top students.
I am thinking about bringing a promissory estoppel claim against my law school, thoughts?
Seton Hall 3L
@40 - I'm not so sure about that. I hope you're right. I'm well in the top 1/3 at a T14 and I know, at least for me, that I'm not putting an OCI bid for firms like Latham, White & Case, etc. specifically because of recent layoffs. But I don't know how many of my classmates will do likewise.
17-
You don't have to make layoffs when you only pay your editors in jelly doughnuts and pearl necklaces
yes, oci will be a nightmare.
for those of us in the top 1/3, we'd rather go through class of '11 oci than '09 deferral->rescind or '10 no-offer.
38, that's like praising players for the best AA baseball team in the country. GULC evening part-time just isn't major league. 23 & 28: The problem is the quality of GULC's part-time evening program, not the quality of those unfortunates who have been duped into attending it.
40 - Yes, you are getting no-offered. Enjoy the lunch.
It stuns me that law students still think they have any negotiating power with three whole underemployed classes competing for a shrinking number of jobs.
45, Do you speak from any experience whatsoever? I know for a fact that the GULC evening program uses the same professors as the day students, evening students may participate in the same journal competitions, moot court competitions, campus events, etc. There is a little to no substantive difference between the evening program and the day program. The only thing the evenign students miss is the occasional guest speaker who visits during the day.
5: As a "t10 top third of class 2011," what are you doing during your 1L summer? Are you a summer in BigLaw?
47 says, "I concede that there is a substantive difference between the evening and day program and that students attending the evening program do not receive the benefit of everything that the day program has to offer." Thank you.
--45
49: What... the useless lunch lectures and "high school"-like social environment? Sorry, but you are not missing much.
~Non-evening program grad
@49 The only concession I made is that the evening division may miss out on an occasional day speaker (e.g. when John Grisham came to campus) but I do not concede that this is a substantive difference. Like I said before, same professors, same journal/moot court opportunities, same access to the library, same access to professors, same opportunity to become teaching assistants, research assistants, etc. In fact, GULC is very good about having whatever panels that appear during the day also appear for the evening program after their classes.
-47
45 - as someone who has been in both (quit my job to finish in 3 years versus 4), I must say -- you're talking out of your ass. I'd hire at least 50% of the people I knew from the evening division, but I'd only hire about 20% of the people I knew from the day division.
It's a matter of experience, ability, and drive. At least 20% of the day students don't really know what they want to do. Another 20% don't really care. About 20% are incompetent, and about 20% are anti-social pricks (e.g. douchebags who brag about piddly status signals).
In the evening division, about 25% of the people are there because they couldn't get into the day division. You can spot them because they don't have real jobs. About 25% have some of the problems listed in the above paragraph. The remaining 50% are likely going to be damn fine lawyers.
Keep in mind, this is just my perspective. It, however, is a well-informed perspective.
Gordon Gekko just told me to get a dog if I want a friend.
Part-time student=part-time lawyer. All firms know that. The law is not a hobby.
This may be true for G'town students, but not for students from top law schools.
47: I think you're missing the point. Yes, GULC evening students seem to receive most of the services / resources that day students do. However, employers know that they're in a less selective program that required much less in terms of academic credentials to gain admission to. Sure, there may be plenty of legitimate reasons why evening students may have had lower admissions numbers than day students did (career change midstream, family obligations, etc.).
Nevertheless, firms aren't taking students from top-ranked schools just based on the school's overall prestige - they're also doing so based on the fact that to get into a top school, one had to have had very impressive academic credentials of his/her own (LSAT as a crude proxy for analytical ability, ability to work under time pressure and GPA as a crude proxy for being willing to put effort into work). Sure, actual law school performance is more important, but it's all curved / relative to the people you're competing against. It's a little easier to get As in law school competing against people with 3.0 ugrad GPAs and high 150 / low 160 LSATs than to get them competing against people with 4.0 ugrad GPAs and 170 LSATs.
54: That's a truly ignorant statement. But OK, it'll be fun to watch you unsuccessfully compete with older. truly talented and accomplished individuals who have REAL skills and are attending law school part-time to change careers. We laugh at the juvenile kiddies who think that sabotaging fellow classmates and making a journal is so COOL.
56, I agree with this reasoning a bit more than some of the other reasons against the evening program. However, in reality, your argument just doesn't pan out. Statistically speaking, there is no hiring difference between evening students and day students.
20,
Mafia Wars is recommended in this economy. It's an imaginative way to network, especially when a hot chick sucker punches you in an attempt to Be Your Friend.
Isn't GULC's evening program just an LLM in Tax?
40,
I didn't see anything where Cravath "basically guaranteed" jobs, I did see that current summers who receive offers won't start before 2011 and will get a stipend for the year. Maybe you are confused by their potential claim under section 90.
60, I think it offers an LLM in International Law too.
An LLM in Tax at most schools is legit since it teaches you specialized skills that can actually be used in practice. In constant, an LLM in International Law is usually a fluff degree and often times, doesn't require much more than a bunch of random international law electives that you might have taken anyway had you been interested in the subject (ex, Cornell's LLM in Int'l Law, where the big requirement is going abroad to France or China for a summer).
People actually hire GULC part-timers with those fluff degrees? Jeez.
35 - "Economy was hot" ?!?
Great, except for that "forward-thinking" firms that no offered or cold offered summers last year that they would have kept in any other economy. Speaking as one of those who suffered such a fate, BigLaw dreams were dashed for many of us in the class of 2009 because of this.
I started at GULC as a part-time evening student (couldn't get in to full-time day program) and transferred to the day program after 1L. Much more thoughtful and experienced folks generally in the evening program, no doubt about it. Evening profs on par with the day, a wash there. Also, for what it's worth, my grades while in the evening program were good, but after jumping to the day program I dominated (honest). So some food for thought there?
Odd, as a day student my grades were always higher in the 4 evening classes I took with much less effort. Anecdotal evidence is awesome!
As an ex-GULCer (day), I will say that night classes were the way to go.
Night students are much cooler, live actual lives, are not tools like day students, and are known to have a beer or three during class.
I knew night students trying to get into day for prestige, but I'm not sure how much difference that makes.
It's ludicrous to suggest that a law firm hires from a school or program because they know that it required competitive ugrad grades and LSAT scores. Otherwise why wouldn't they just ask for ugrad grades and LSAT scores as part of your CV?
I'm a current Georgetown evening student. Particularly in these challenging economic times, I'm very happy to be working full-time and not accumulating massive debt.
What firms has GULC been talking to? I have a hard time believing non-Latham/Weil V15s are going to pull 80% offer rates. They are still too proud.
How can a law firm, in good faith, no-offer 20-50% of its summers? I'm not talking about arrogant sloths who don't do work, but people who work hard and put in a decent effort. Seriously firms, you are going to financially FUCK these kids for life because you overhired? There is no way 50% of a class, or even 20%, is not worthy of an offer. Un-effing-real.
46 = fucktard..
"It stuns me that law students still think they have any negotiating power with three whole underemployed classes competing for a shrinking number of jobs."
Read 40 again, genius. "...FUTURE recruitment prospects."
Nobody is saying current summers have bargaining power, but future classes certainly will. You think anyone with better offers will go to a firm whose track record is repleat with layoffs, salary freezes, and cold-offers?
Use your brain. You think top firms offered salary hikes and ever-growing bonuses during the boom years out of the goodness of their hearts?
The ONLY product law firms provide is human capital. You don't attract top talent by shitting on your people when things slow down.
The biggest winners of the big law bonanza were the law professors. They got unbelievable fringe benefits: apartments on Central Park West, town houses in the West Village, private school tuition for their children, you name it. And it was made off the back of exorbitant tuitions that students were able to pay back. No more.
How many years of their lives will students who can't get legal jobs be forced to spend working off their share of a professor's four bedroom apartment? Will the schools garnish their alumni's wages if they choose to go into non-legal small business to earn a living in a way not in the "public interest?"
Law schools have no labs, they have no sports facilities. They have none of the big expenses of a university. The big tuitions have been a field day for the law professors. And those days are over.
I love it when 23-year-old douche bags try to down on real adults in evening programs. Why not get a PhD after law school so daddy will keep paying your bills?
@73, It's time for the workers to rise up!
GULC actually has a huge sports facility. But I have no idea what kind of perks our professors get, other than a healthy pay check.