Harvard + JAGs = Crazy Delicious!

trey, shakalaka

How do you "See, e.g." Cravath and Skadden? Whatever never-made-it-in-real-law-practice JD in Harvard's career office writing this garbage should take a note: using nonsensical bluebook citations in a casual memo to students is retarded. No one's impressed. Fail.

Cravath's plight would never happen at a much less leveraged firm with no bank loans.

suckahs!!! they should all go work for Nobama. The "One" will save them (and the other 9% of American's looking for work).

This letter is a euphemistic way to tell law students that their lives and investment in their legal education turned out to be as bad or worse than investing in one of Bernie Madoff's funds. I found the advice regarding state or speciality clerkships to be poor. The day I see an HLS grad with a state clerkship or specialty clerkship (e.g., immigration court, admiralty court, any administrative court, etc.)., will be the day I start considering Cardozo grads with federal clerkships. Most of you law students (especially incoming 1ls and 2ls) should control the financial hemoraging that your life is suffering and drop out of law school. Do something else that is more productive (e.g., washing windows on skyscrapers) and as for 3ls and graduates, I have three words for you: Hang a shingle.

4: obviously using e.g. in place of "for example" which, i agree, doesn't quite work.

5,

No firm fits that description.

- Nervous YLS Rising 2L

@8: "e.g."= latin for exempli gratia, "for the sake of example."

PE: You did suicide schtick. Disappear.

Harvard is the GULC of Boston.

9,

See, e.g., Davis Polk, Cleary Gottlieb, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, Gibson Dunn.

- Non-suicidal summer associate

If any HLS Class of 2011's need work, I am contemplating the termination of my housekeeper, and will be accepting resumes shortly.

She doesn't seem to understand that mopping the bathroom floor doesn't mean just pushing my pubes under the vanity. I can still see them. Maybe a HLS graduate will operate differently. Please include a transcript.

I hear lots of things in Baghdad go boom from time to time.

I hear that Evan Chesler bleaches his anus.

Most of the posters here undoubtedly are liberal. Now, just look at your comments -- look at what lurks in your black hearts and atrophied brains.

What a horrible website.

I want to know what is lurking in #16's mind.

yeesh

If Elie had a brain, and could do more than parrot mindless bullshit about firms deferring/laying off associates, maybe he could write some articles on firms that are actually doing well right now. That would be helpful. But ATL... do something helpful... I know.. an outlandish request. That's like asking Elie not to resemble a hippo.

Please do a post on the pros and cons of anal bleaching as it relates to the legal profession.

i have always wanted to know. is it disrespectful to my roommate to both piss and shit in the shower? i mean, the water is flowing. there is ample soap to clean things up. wouldnt it save water and time? what would be the big issue? the yeast cheese under my balls would likely disgust her more than anything.

Harvard is the Northeastern of Cambridge.

What law students and recent grads need to realize is the fact that the entire economic model for BigLaw has changed. If the use of leverage has ended or simply been reduced, then there will be far fewer jobs available in BigLaw. The entire idea of paying associates $160K to review docs and do paralegal work is over, or at least it should be over. Time for law grads to do the unthinkable...learn to practice law, as opposed to being a highly paid paralegal.

Is anal bleaching pervasive in BIgLaw?

25

Yes.

Ask Evan Chesler's legion of fans.

"Grades seem like the matter now than ever before. "

Are you kidding me? From which effing moron academy did you graduate? Jesus, learn how to spellcheck and proofread!

jobs@grossoldman.com

Should've gone to Wachtell.

- CLS 2L Stud

10 -

Bullshit, it's short for ergo.

-Ray "Bones" Barboni

14 -

I heard your housekeeper was leaving you.

For the Supreme Court.

Every Harvard idiot who supported Obama deserves to be unemployed. I'm laughing all the way to the bank!

Harvard chicks have huge beavers.

MysTTTal

It's alright. When I finish my master's degree, I might hire some of you HLS guys to run errands for me. I may even pay you a few extra bucks to shine my shoes, like the boot-licking sellout lackeys you are.

This is funny...the only difference b/w me and a Harvard grad now is about 50k in debt

-TTTer who still wishes she went T14

32, what the hell does Obama have to do with Cravath deferring jobs?

Seriously, how many T14 students are Young Republican types?

I realize I'm just another scared -- and yes, very much deferred --incoming associate, but here is how I see it:

In September 2007, when the firms hired the class of 2009 for Summer Associate positions, the bull market was still technically going strong. Yes, there were definite signs of trouble -- e.g., the sub prime MBS market was in full out collapse mode -- but the partners may have believed in good faith that the markets would continue to roar. And so the firms hired in massive numbers, believing that the high attrition would continue and that new bodies would be needed to maintain their leverage-fueled profits.

That's all fine. In the Fall of 2007, a lot of people thought sub prime was "just a blip" and that the economy -- and more importantly for the firms, the credit markets -- would continue to hum along. But for the love of god, by the summer of 2008 the writing was on the wall. I, a measly Summer Associate, saw that the biglaw model was EXTREMELY vulnerable to a downturn. Not only that, but a lot of realized that, unlike prior downturns, this time it was the firm clients themselves who were being impacted the most.

So why in the fuck did the firms hire all of us back after the summer? I mean the firm managers have brains, right? They could figure out that dealing with these things earlier rather than later would have saved the class of 2009 -- and the firm -- a lot of pain. They should have no-offered 50% of us in August 2008 and cut back on Summer 2009 hiring by 70-80%.

Glad I'm a bankruptcy lawyer.

Why don't you talk about how Paul Weiss is doing just fine. Honestly, everyone is happy, work is flowing, lunches are unlimited. I love Paul Weiss.

38---I understand your anger, but asking why the firms hired everyone back after the summer is just like asking why the largest and most sophisticated financial institutions got involved in the MBS scam in the first place? These places clearly aren't in the business of exercising prudence--they're in the business of maximizing whatever they can wring every last drop of cash out of. Period.

2,

Cute, but JAG doesn't start until January. What do you plan to do for 7 months?

Dear Harvard Grads:
Fuck. You. Leave the clerkships for people not lucky enough to get $80k a year to sit on their ass.
Love,
The World.

38,

I recall having lunches in August of last year with very senior partners in DC. One was with Gibson Dunn, the other was MoFo refugee in an elite boutique. While much of the conversation centered on the total shutdown in auction rate securities, they both advised that their firms were hiring as little as possible and saw layoffs coming at other firms, eg Latham. They also convinced me (and through me my friends) to sell all stock and shift 401k into cash. On October 9, the market dropped 600 plus points and the rest is sort of history. I remember actively advising the 2l's who asked me to find any government job they could get and forget about firms.

However, bear in mind, that at the time most of the really smart people in these fbig firms were VERY BUSY literally trying to salvage the international banking system. They weren't too worried about summer associate hiring rates. The admin types who run these places may not have had the same info they did. Clearly Cravath partners weren't speaking to each other!!

There was also a lot of denial out there -- i remember some fairly heated conversations on whether Chrysler and GM were going bankrupt (on economic grounds no less).

Last, its hard to really pull the trigger and do things -- my company saw it coming -- did everything we could starting with a hiring freeze -- it just hit harder and is lasting longer than anyonewould wish,

It is little solace to you, but I also know that the management of some firms are actively trying to outplace their associates and partners -- literally calling me up and seeing if i know of in house jobs in their area -- their priority are the people currently in the firm and trying to mitigate the impact of layoffs.

I was really glad by the way to see 40's post on Paul Weiss. Glad its working out for them==

WHY DOES ANYONE CARE ABOUT THIS?

I mean, haven't you heard that Western State University College of Law has a new dean, named William Adams???????????

Does anybody else not understand why HLS isn't #1 in the rankings? It's Harvard!!! Everybody wants to go there!!!!!!!!!!

44-- since you are obviously on the ground, do you think V-50 firms will actually start us in January?

why does trying to figure out an alternative plan because your biglaw plans have to be a "panic." in my opinion, it seems like a reasonable and responsible thing to do.

Kash is the cute friend at best.

The cute friend is right in my wheelhouse.

- Work-life balance guy.

Harvard's an overrated lawyer mill. I'm consistently unimpressed by the Harvard summers at my firm. I think we dig a little too deep into their classes - anything below top 30-40% is worthless.

Northeastern is the Harvard of overpriced public interest law schools in the Roxbury-Fenway district of Boston.

Everything seems to be going smoothly at my V10 firm. So far no deferrals or skimping on the summer program. I'd name it but I don't want to jinx it.

52,

All ten of the V10 firms have had deferrals of some kind. We can go down the list, one by one. Either you are in denial, or your office is next to the janitors.

Well at least all the Harvard grads will have a fancy piece of paper to frame and hang on their wall. That should make them feel special and good about themselves, right?

Harvard law grads are good for very little, other than playing politics with dickless liberals down in DC. Truly, who gives a shit about Harvard, Yale, and the rest of the clubbers. Fourth tier firms rule! Their grads never have to worry about being laid off, mostly because they never pass the bar and never get a job offer. Yes, many become jailhouse lawyers with their old gangs, but mostly they just suck shit.

Just wait, these big firms are going to come crawling back begging "top law students" to come back to biglaw after they all left to hang a shingle and send a message to the big firms. These huge firms will never get "top talent" law students again.

56, yes, they will, because you have nowhere else to go.

MysTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTal

I thought the Easy button/Panic button last line was funny. Then again, I'm studying barbri materials and am easily amused by anything these days.

Good job on that line elie.

i am not a lawyer, but i read this blog and was wondering if i can get some direction (not advice):

last night, my girlfriend and i were having intimate relations. for those of you that went to that gulc, thats sex. anyways, she stood up and asked if she can shit on my face. after i got over the initial shock, i said sure, i was feeling adventurous. so, she squat over my face and proceeds to take a huge shit in my mouth. thats all fine and dandy, but she kept going and hershey squirted all over my hair, eyes, and into my nose.

i recall something about reliance and some section 90 of something. do i have a case against her?

your help would be appreciated.

As if being a Summer Associate at a BigLaw firm wasn't stressful enough as is.....thank you Skadden/Cravath. Your stupidity has opened the door for more BS.

- Frustrated SA

OMG A LAWYER GOT INTO A SKYDIVING ACCIDENT AND DIDNT DIE

THIS IS TOTALLY WORTHY OF A POST

OCEANS RISE

HARVARD FALLS

QUINN REMAINS

Covington and Paul Weiss are the only top firms that have had no deferral at all, and they're not top 10.

But of the top 10, there are a few that I would consider no deferral to speak of. Firms with the latest start in November, I don't think are 'real' deferrals. Those firms are Wachtell, Kirkland, S&C, and Davis Polk.

Oh, and 60, you are a complete idiot. Did you go to the Devry Institute of Humor?

This whole "top talent" stuff is PR. I work in Biglaw, and you can't tell the difference between the work of some no name school or Top 10. The top 10% of the class after 1 year of law school is not necessarily any smarter than someone outside the top third or half. Some of the smartest people in law school were not in the top of their class after 1L year. There is plenty of talent out there, and the way recruiting is handled now, firms spend a lot of money but they don't hire the best associates anyway. Less tools from the top 6 schools would be just fine by me.

56 here, I was being sarcastic with my post. For law students to think they have any power or are owed anything is laughable at best. There is no "Top Talent" because no student comes out of school with any idea of how to be a lawyer. These firms could not hire a law student again for the next 5 years easy and still be totally fine. Heck they''d probably be better off to try and find experienced lateral hires when they do need some people than ever hiring law students

I'm also really happy to hear how well things are working out for Paul Weiss!

You're all idiots - like you think this letter means that HLS grads aren't all getting jobs? There are fewer legal jobs and HLS GRADS ARE GOING TO BE TAKING THEM FROM STUDENTS AT LOWER RANKED SCHOOLS.

Sure, the standard for HLS students that want a top biglaw job has changed from "having a pulse" to "being above top 50% of your class." But the standard for kids at shittier schools has gone from top 5% to top 1. Not 1%, just top 1.

Harvard layoffs. Cravath deferrals. It is truly the end times. Time to make yourselves right with the Lord, my friends.

CravaTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTH

38 - It's not as much a problem with the model as a problem with the underlying economy and the places where BigLaw associates generally go. BigLaw hiring practices were predicated on the fact that BigLaw associates would be leaving in droves. With the death of investment banking and the slowdown in the economy generally, lateral recruiting has died. I've gone from a dozen recruiter calls a week to the point where I don't think I've had any in over a month. Firms need to adjust their hiring immediately to account for the excess associates they already have, not to mention bringing in fewer in the future.

65 - I hear this crap out of TTTers all the time and it just makes me shake my head. It's not a coincidence that Harvard Law School currently has the third most CEOs of Fortune 500 companies of any graduate school (beside HBS and SBS). If you can't tell the difference between the Harvard kid and the IUPUI Law grad, you're just not trying.

Unless you can get a job at S&C, DPW, Wacthell, CGSH, Debevoise or Gibson Dunn, you should probably drop out of law school.

The panic button should be for 2011 - the class no one will hire at OCI this year. At least the top firms will keep offer rates steady and utilize deferrals instead of massacring the class of 2010.

happy as shit to be a patent attorney at a boutique that still has plenty of work...

Wah... the trust fund babies get a year off. Big deal. Bite me Elie. Report something useful.

75 -- we are not complaining about getting a year off. We are upset because our careers have effectively been ruined before we even had a chance to prove ourselves. I think it's understandable that we feel a little bitter about how bad our fucking timing is. We did not get to participate in the 50-year-long party that was biglaw.

That letter basically reads:

"Students, you are coders and nothing more. We thus have no need for you. Please join your fellow second tier colleagues on your nearest coding floor."

Funny, I used to sit next to fellow from Harvard. He was cut within two weeks. Was NOT cut out for the coding floor. I heard he is now making 42/ per annum at Bronx DA.

Very Truly Yours,
Better Coder
bettercoderthanyou.wordpress.com

@66, re your statement that "no student comes out of school with any idea of how to be a lawyer."

This is a choice students make. You can get a basic start on being a lawyer through clinics, mock trial, moot court, classes that require you to write pleadings, etc.

@76 - okay drama queen... your careers are ruined... right. I guess those that didn't graduate from harvard never had a career to begin with. Get over yourself.

HLS produces the best lawyers on average. Except Elie.

HLS produces the best lawyers on average. Except Elie.

@65- the fact that some top students from low ranked schools can hang with top school students doesn't mean these students are fungible. Students get into top schools because they're smarter. That doesn't guarantee they'll be great lawyers, but it goes a long way and generally means they'll do better. Most law reviewers at non-top 50 schools wouldn't even be waitlisted at the t14. That's why they tell you about their law review experience all the time. They've got to try to distinguish themselves from their retarded classmates. For future reference, we're not impressed if you're in the top 10% of the class of the 100th ranked school. At most, all it means is you're not a moron.

I agree with 82. Any reasonably intelligent person can score within the mid 160s of the LSAT - it may take some practice, but it's not too hard to achieve with time and repetition. A mid 160 LSAT score can get you into at least a top 50 school. If you can't score within the 160s after significant practice, there are basic intelligence problems that signify that you shouldn't attend a T14 school where your peers will be thinking on a much higher level. I would also find it hard to argue that people who are more intelligent, generally speaking, are not as good of lawyers than people who are not as intelligent. Sure, you can point to the exceptions, but, here, the exception proves the rule.

Scared 3L, if your career is 'ruined' it's because of the attitude you display on this messageboard. Your class has suffered a setback, albeit a significant one, and nothing more.

Many of your peers will still prevail in Big Law or otherwise and look back on this as a blip in their lives. Judging by your post, you probably will not. And if you lose your 'one shot' in big law, you'll LET your career be 'ruined.'

Harvard Law School is the McDermott Will & Emery of law schools ... over-rated.

Very truly yours,
Hofstra 3L -- Top 38%

"The news that Cravath is leaving the class of 2010 out of work for a year has sent monocles flying as students at top law schools learn a powerful lesson about free market capitalism. "

Yep, getting that $80K to spend a year hiking through Europe is about a powerful lesson as can be learnt.

i just sharted. should i apply to harvard or yale?

86 -

Will those deferred be comfortable taking a year to backpack, or will they jockey for resume-polishing gigs to "assure" their "secure" positions in 2010?

BigTex firms = new Vault 10. I'm laughing at all you East Coast/West Coast dills who think you are the shiz. My BigTex firm is chugging along. I'm billing 8-12 hours daily, and I'm in corporate. Our corporate department is booming with offerings every day, M&A deals etc. Thank goodness my firm does not just represent I-banks like the NYers. Our summers are busy, we're not deferring, no salary cuts. Funny how we have seen a huge surge of resumes from East Coast dills. Go suck it.

Harvard = losers

Name the firms, 89. You're full of crap.

91 = loser - probably abused by one or both of his male parents

In my experience recruiting at a top firm:

T5 (Top 35%) = T6-15 (Top 25-30%) = T16-25 (Top 15-20%) = T26-T50 (Top 10%) = T50-T100 (Top 1%).

I would say these standards accurately reflect the cutoff for top talent at most schools. Let's face it, a bottom-half student at Harvard or NYU got a great LSAT score, but probably can't write to save his life.

Houston, we don't have BigLaw's problem. Capitalism and entrepreneurialism are wonderful things. Too bad New York and California abandoned them. I'm making as much as New York associates but getting real experience and we're seeing no cuts, deferrals or otherwise. The big apple is rotten and starting to stink.

Recession's over, bitches!

Time to break out the champagne and the motha fucking condoms, ya heard?

91=89

Hey 89/91, 94:

My firm is giving me gobs of experience, things are great in corporate, lit and bankruptcy, no deferrals, no cuts, all the perks are still there (Houston lunches vs. NYC lunches = no contest) and I can often get $700 Yankees tickets. Oh yeah, my firm MADE money last year, look it up. The best perk of all though: I don't have to live in Texas. Some of us still have it good, don't predict the apocalypse in NY just yet.

--40

PS- 2Ls: apply to PW, DPW, CGSH and DP in New York, avoid Texas unless you want to live in the desert.

91 - Baker Botts I also have friends at other firms in town that are very busy. I have no fear of losing my job. Some firms have fired several associates, including Baker Botts, but it has been dead weight and people that were not cutting it.

Is anyone else kind of skeeved out by those weird Patrick Chewing adds for Snickers? What is the goal, to make me think that eating a Snickers bar is like eating Patrick Ewing. Um, no thanks, I think I'll pass.

"It's not a coincidence that Harvard Law School currently has the third most CEOs of Fortune 500 companies of any graduate school (beside HBS and SBS)."

You're right: CEOs are always the "best and brightest", see economic collapse of 2008.

All will be well.

The Market will provide.

72, S&C has done a ton of stealth layoffs. And it's too corporate heavy. An incoming associate would be much better off at Paul Weiss, Kirkland, or Covington. The rest of that list is prtty good.

89, my sister works at one of the three biggest firms in TX. She says high billables in corp are 30/hrs per month. She hears that it's the same for other firms there, too.

82,

Students get into top schools not because they are smarter, but because they paid for a class that taught them how to do better on the LSAT.

I had a perfect SAT score (1600 in my day) but thanks to a 200 point increase from my mom making me take Princeton review classes.

The LSAT is pointless. Undergrad school name is pointless (kids from poor families go instate, not MIT even if they got in). The essay is pointless ("why I want to go to lawschool here"). Undergrad GPA is pointless when you compare an engineering student to a "psychology" student.

Basically, the entire system is based on some bullshit. I know, you ivy league kids will cry I'm jealous, believe me I'm not.

I dont know how to fix it. I just know that it doesn't judge who the best are.

Any business that pays more than $300/hr in legal advice deserves to go out of business.

Agree with 103. The law school admissions process rewards two things above all else

1. Gunners who "know" when they are 17 that they want to be a lawyer and can ($) and must go to the most prestigious undergrad possible with the easiest major possible to get into the best law school possible.

2. People who spend extensive amounts of money and get a bit of luck on the LSAT.

Undergrad GPA can be gamed to such an extent by institution, major and course/professor selection that it basically says nothing. Beyond getting over 160 - which does take a fairly quick brain - the LSAT likewise little about how smart someone is. I've spoken to plenty of 180's who were basically morons when it came to real world problems.

The LSAT corrolates reasonably well to how people do in law school, but last I checked, there was extensive bitching about how particularly T10 schools failed to actually train people how to practice law.

Face it, we really don't know how to evaluate who is going to be a good lawyer and so we use metrics which everyone knows are (a) mostly irrelevent and (b) picked solely for the prettiest web site listing of credentials in the firm to justify rates.

71, noone disputes the fact that Harvard law grads have more opportunity and more would become CEO's. The point is they are not better CEO's than anyone else.

60--

This is precisely the situation that Section 90 of the Restatement was written to address. Of course, only those attending TTT (Third Tier Toilet) schools would have learned that.

signed -- Sandy Flush

i wanted to get some help from some of you. i recently took the lsat and got a decent 162. i have a 3.1 gpa from a highly ranked public school, with a degree in african american studies. i am an african american. do the t14 schools still use race as an admission critieria (i.e. can affirmative action help me), or should i just apply to my regional law schools. in other words, would it be a waste of time? thanks!

Spending extensive amounts of money really doesn't help you that much on the LSAT (especially compared to, say, spending extensive amounts on SAT prep). If you're spending more than $1,000, you're wasting it.

There are two things that help--get a good test prep book, Jeff Kolby or Kaplan, and take a bunch of practice tests (getting those will cost you some money, but it shouldn't be more than a $1,000. That will prepare you as much as you need or are able to be prepared. If you're tossing tons of money at courses, it's because you either a.) don't have the discipline to do that; b.) it just seems like the simplest route to take.

I will say it probably isn't emphasized enough to a lot of students just how important the LSAT is before they apply and that catches them off guard (unfortunately admissions deans and, now, the courts insist on doing the "we look at the entire application and candidate as a whole" kabuki-dance bullshit--when they know full well it's a numbers game).

106 - i completely agree. in fact, about a year ago, there was this website that determined the total number of dollars lost (i.e. companies declaring bankruptcy, lost company value, decrease in revenues) and total number of criminal lawsuits for all CEOs and compiled the list based upon b-school. no surprise, Harvard was tops in the list, by far. they have more opportunity to get higher, but once they get there, they sure know how to fuck it up. btw, i think there was a 2nd tier b-school as number 2. i believe it was due to enron that kind of jacked up the numbers. its amazing that these people keep putting their spouses and family friends on boards for favors for themselves, and somehow, they think the board of directors is still going to adequately monitor these public companies.

listen, we all know why people got into harvard, yale, and the other ivies 15 years ago and earlier...its because either their parents had money or one of their parents or close family members went there, thus giving them legacy status. they werent smarter than anyone else, they just had access. now, those dimwits are running our companies and our law firms, using the aura of prestige to try to keep real leadership and innovation down, lest they be seen for what they really are, and thats average.

personally, if somone that graduated from a top school 20 or so years ago or more tries to pull that shit with me, i just laugh. how f-ing pathetic. they just happened to be the luck sperm and now they try to pull this prestige crap. give me a break. you are the ones that broke our economy. you are the ones running law firms into the ground.

Can anyone tell me how Thompson Hine is doing?

Hahahahaha....
All the HLS 2Ls looked down on me for working in gov't this summer while they jetted off to Cravath and Skadden. Well guess what b*tches? I'LL be working in 2010 while you're living in your parents' basements.

IF and when the firms do decide to hire you, guess what? You'll be starting out as 1st year associates along with the Class of 2011. So all those 1Ls you looked down on last year will be your peers. Oh I love it!

-Rising HLS 3L

110 hits the nail on the head. The general prestige-based hiring (which is what 90% of it is, get real) is driven by people who for the most part don't "deserve" to be where they are if you applied the same process to them.

Gen Y is more or less being treated like interchangable slave labor. They want to make money off of your pretty piece of paper. They don't value you as an attorney.

Was I the only one scrolling all the way across 70's post to see if he included the 'H' at the end?

Anyone who uses a phrase like "See, e.g., Cravath and Skadden" needs to attend a remedial English composition course. Did a member of the Harvard law faculty actually write that garbage? This is not a brief or a law review article, and, even if it were, "See, e.g." is an offense to the English language that should be used only when absolutely required to deliver a legal citation.

102 - You're sister is either (1) an idiot, and no partners want to give here work, or (2) she is not looking for work or does not know how. I guess she could be talking about how it was in January/February. While our corp dept was slow then, now everyone I know is billing like mad. I have not billed less than 8 hours/day (M-F) for the last 2 months.

96---
If you call your life "living good," I call bullshit. I went to CLS and witnessed first-hand the lifestyles of young associates. Doc review, doc review, doc review, go home to shitty 300 sq ft apartment. Doc review, doc review, doc review. I mentally left NY as soon as I moved there and now am happy to be in TX. So you say the best part about your "life" is not having to live in TX? I live in a 1200 sq ft apt for LESS than you pretentious NYers pay for shithole cracker boxes. And my firm is healthy too.
p.s. Yankees tickets are your biggest perk? wowwww.....

117 - I would never live in NY or tttexas. One is an overcrowded, overpriced, dirty roach motel swimming in its own sick. The other is a batshit insane, redneck infested, backward-as-fuck smoldering hellhole.

118,

That's why you chose your mom's basement in Kansas right?

only $1000. That's a lot of money to a recent college grad with school loans and applicaiton fees.

LSAT costs money, then sending your scores costs money. Also, gotta apply to places.
It costs around $3K just to apply to 5 lawschools too. Let's not forget those all important "non-refundable" couple hundred dollar application fees. I bet half of those applications, they just look at lsat score and trash them before even being reviewed.

So the extra $1K is a lot for a 21 year old with student loans and no family help and paying rent, bills, etc.

103 - I agree with much of what you said. And I went to an Ivy League school.

I find that BIGLAW is - for the most part - crawling with people who had very privileged upbringings. How would I describe these people? Not as brilliant. Not as hard-working. But as privileged. It's everywhere.

"Where are you taking your bar trip?"

I'm not. I can't afford it.

I want to see more poor/low-income people pipelined - from birth - into elite schools.

Agree completely with 103 and 105.

I went to public undergrad (liberal arts major) and now Ivy league law school. Applying to law school is the same as applying to undergrad--it's just a system you can exploit with an easy major and repeated LSAT practice tests (prep course or not). Just know what to do from the beginning of undergrad and you can ride the HYSCN name on your resume, still partying all you want. It doesn't matter that we're not "smarter," but for whatever reason employers put some kinda premium on the brand name of your degree.

Also, I learned more about practicing law my first 3 weeks as an SA then I ever did in 1L or 2L year. And as for those kids who maxed out on 1L grades by spending every last hour in the library and obsessively emailing/annoying their professors, guess what? They're all doing research this summer, because they know no employer will ever put them in front of a client to hear their obnoxious rants about torts/contract restatements.

I'm not an Ivy grad, but prestige based hiring exists in law firms for the same reasons it exists elsewhere, with the problem compounded by the strange nature of law school attendance and law firm hiring. Someone at Harvard, Yale, etc. has generally been an academic success their entire life. Prior academic success is the only measuring stick that can be used to evaluate most law students, since most have not worked in real jobs prior to law school for any extended period. Harvard MBA's get hired because they went to Harvard as well, but at least with B-school employers can check references and get a sense of what kind of work the person did in a prior job.

So where you went to law school takes on disproportionate importance because law firms are trying to make hiring decisions off very limited information in the fall of your 2L year (prior academics, where you went to law school and how you do as a 1L), and at top firms once you have a summer offer you almost assuredly have a full time offer later. The fact that newbie associates went to Harvard is then used as a selling point when trying to justify massive first year and junior associate rates, often for people doing work non-lawyer document reviewers can do.

The problem right now is not a Harvard/Ivy bias, the problems seem to be that (1) rates have increased massively over the past five years, (2) law firms are way behind the curve in usage of technology to promote efficiency (so the increasing rates can no longer be justified by greater "efficiency" because law firms take just as long to produce work product now as they did three years ago but often try to charge 20% more--as one simple example, 10 years ago only law firms had Deltaview, now every lawyer I know has it), (3) clients have realized that newbie lawyers simply are not worth the fees paid, (4) law firms are figuring out newbies are not worth $160K, and (5) the biggie, law firms all massively overhired during the boom.

This is not going to sort itself out any time soon. Law firms are a lagging, not leading, indicator. The classes of 2009 and 2010 may never start--or when they do firms will use harsh "performance" reviews in year one--and the people in line for 2011 graduation should be thinking about new careers. Good luck to you if you are a junior associate or a law student. I survived two downturns, but was not fun at all. It is particularly difficult for an HLS grad to get laid off, because it may be the first time they "failed" in their lives.

120- "only $1000. That's a lot of money to a recent college grad with school loans and applicaiton fees."

You're about to plop down on anywhere from $60,000 (if you go to a public law school and get a ton of scholarships) to $210,000.

When you're dishing that out, $1,000 to make sure you go to the best school is not a lot of money. It's nothing. And again, I tossed that out there as the high end. You really should be able to get by with much less.

The Class of 2010 is in bad shape, but there will be no class of 2011 at most firms--unless you could the deferred 2009 and 2010 classes. You can expect to see a lot of firms not interviewing at all or if they interview, hiring one person rather than 100 people. This will not just be in NY, it will be everywhere. It is going to be bloody.

Sigh. I can't believe Obama has already screwed up the economy this much.

We are nowhere near rock bottom. At worst, 15-25% of consumer and residential mortgages are in trouble. The economy hasn't yet been by commercial defaults or anything other than the automotive and banking industry wholesale defaults.

Serious deflation is coming even with a weak dollar policy. You will look forward to paying your 200k student loan on a 10k salary.

The $3.6 Trillion Leveraged Loan Wall of Debt

The Deal Magazine has an interesting discussion about That Worrying Wall Of Debt.

The leveraged loan market got accustomed to big numbers over the past decade. There's $3.6 trillion, the amount of leveraged loans made since 2000, according to Thomson Reuters' Loan Pricing Corp. There's 735-fold, the amount of growth between 2003 and 2007 in the volume of collateralized loan obligations -- the funds that helped fuel the loan market's surge after the tech and telecom bust of 2001. And there's $375 billion, the amount of bank debt used to fund leveraged buyouts completed between 2005 and 2007.

But right now, the leveraged loan market is fixated on one number: $430 billion, the amount in leveraged loans due to mature between 2012 and 2014. Despite the big numbers of the past, this might be simply too big. Indeed, the $430 billion figure is already worrying lenders, borrowers and loan-market investors alike as they struggle with the possibility that a large portion of those loans will neither be repaid nor refinanced, raising the specter of a wave of defaults among the debt-fueled LBO borrowers of 2005 through 2007.

As one executive at a private equity firm describes it, the availability of so much cheap debt profoundly affected how sponsors did business because it encouraged them to change their focus. "The PE firms were not investing in specific industries," he says. "They were investing in the capital markets."

our 10-atty firm just hired a harvard '06 grad... it's funny to see them sweating 2200 bh for $80K. oh, and btw, if she doesn't have a book of business in 3 years sufficient to justify her salary she might need to rethink her career options...

124 - those fees can come from student loans. There are no loans I was able to obtain when I was 23, 4 months out of college, supporting my sister, and applying to law school.

There will be layoffs this week or next. Business has not improved. There are enough hours in for this quarter to make a decision. The only question is where is the cut-off. That will vary from firm to firm, but less than 75 billable hours would be reasonable.

To all those applying taking the LSAT: pay $100 to buy the Kaplan (or whoever books) and a bunch of practice tests. Practice until you score in the 170's, and save your money. There's no better way, but there are certainly more expensive ways.

I never had the money for classes, but self-studied into a 1470 SAT (back when it was out of 1600) and a 173 LSAT. My initial test scores were WAY lower. Classes won't tell you anything more than what's in the book- all they do is force you to be disciplined. You have to have the dedication to study out of a book for hours to make it as a lawyer anyway. Might as well start honing that skill now.

To those applying to take the LSAT's, don't. It will be years before this works out of the system.

I am offended by post number 126 and have instructed my comments czar to moderate. At any rate, no one's going to be talking about how I screwed up the economy when nuclear war breaks out on the Korean peninsula.

I'm Barack Obama?

117- Dear god ur stupid. The big firms in New York don't have their associates do doc review, the good ones still have staff attorneys for that. Again, I'll take an apartment in the cultural center of the world than a 2500 sq ft wife in America's shithole. Have fun spending your life obsessed with high school football.

in BIGLAW, the true of the matter is that most of the harvard gards get paid the same as those from other tiers; thanks to the so called lockstep structure. Once you are in, clients put less emphasis on where you graduate and more on your experience. Who cares if you are a harvard grad...that is only good for your resume, not for job security. Get over it.

135, that was partially true prior to the large staff attorney layoffs. More frequently they relied on contract attorneys. Staff attorneys would also do a lot of associate level work, but without the T14 pedigree to make them worth dental benefits or $60k more in salary (talk to some partners and get their "personal" opinion on the hiring dynamics of big firms). Now, however, associates are conducting document review. In fact, corporate and M&A associates that have no deals to work on are being pushed onto litigation document review projects because there's no other billable work for them to do. What should prove interesting is when clients review their bills and wonder why they're being billed at two to three times the previous rate for a lawyer that works on multibillion dollar deals to look over some e-mails sent between junior employees at a small company.

Correction, that was directed to 134.

-136

134 must be a delusional law student who still believes the recruiting hype about substantive work.

What exactly is a 'clerkship?' As a a prehistoric caveman who was frozen in ice and later thawed out by some or your scientists, sometimes I am scared by your fast moving subways and taxi cabs. I often wonder who planted the magic spirits inside of my Blackberry. But the one thing that I do know is that lawyers are supposed to do useful things, like wills and cocaine. Clerking is not a part of this. Thank you.

I'd like to make a suggestion that could alleviate some extraneous comments on this site:

Let's just agree that there are some Texans out there who, for some reason, would prefer to live and work in Texas instead of New York -- and for some reason also feel compelled to tell us so on this site -- and that the rest of us are more than happy to not have them here with us in New York, and we'll gladly leave Texas to the Texans. OK? Whew. Now let's all just take a deep breath, and move on.

Please do stay in NY, you Yankee snob.

103, 105 - don't forget about the effects of grade inflation on grad school admissino. Look at www.gradeinflation.com - the four worst offenders, over time, are Duke, Yale, Harvard, and Dartmouth, who have all raised the average undergrad GPA by A FULL POINT over the last half century or so. According to the data, the average Harvard GPA back in 1950 was a 2.55. In 2005, a 3.45. Are the kids really that much smarter now than in 1950, when most of the class came from Andover/Exeter/Groton/Deerfield/etc and just spent four-six years in an extremely rigorous classically-oriented secondary education? I very seriously doubt it. Is it the institutions whoring out their names by waffling on grades and then claiming "our students are just that f*cking good now?" Absolutely.

Absurd grade inflation at the Ivies creates a devastating effect against "less prestigious" schools like, say, Purdue or Harvey-Mudd when applying to law/biz.med/engineering/Wall Street/etc.

Grades seem like they matter now than ever before.

134, check out 136-138 and then know what you're talking about before posting.
and 140, you're right about the fact that there will always be a divide between the people who love NY and the people who love TX. but those who will trash TX without ever having even stepped foot into the state (or having visited one of the very small towns in the state on--get this--DOC REVIEW trips) are morons. i've lived in both so i can at least speak with some knowledge, rather than allowing my opinions to be formed by stereotypes.