Fuhrust!

Cravathird?

fourth

4th

2 -

Suck it. I was first, again.

1

Crevasse, Swine & Whore?

5=fail
2=epic fail
discuss

creamy

Does anyone want to guess how many of Cravath's 120 summers receive offers?

6- stop pretending to be first. I was first on this thread and second on the previous thread.

The real omg first

The ship be sinking...

Cravath is still hiring Lathamites to wipes its ass.

MysTTTal

But what does Partner Emeritus think of the actions of this non-peer firm?

11 -

Stop making up claims of being first. I was first, and you can't prove otherwise!

1

This would never happen at Paul Hastings.

Ghetto-Fabulous!

WOW ... I'm actually surprised that MysTTTal didn't find a way to interpret this move as RACIST on Cravath's part.

I knew there was a reason i ranked CSM so low on Vault this year....

Ghetto-Fabulous!

Ghetto-Fabulous!

Ghetto-Fabulous!

This is not good for anyone.

Cravath has 150 incoming associates??

I thought that place was supposed to be prestigious/selective/exclusive....

And here I thought my class of 60 was big.

volunatry?

FYI the class of 2011, if they were clueless enough not to have done so already, should start panicking about OCI now.

If you have to defer, this is the way to do it.

Prestige points!!!

What is going on at Paul Hastings? I haven't read anything about them in a while.

15=PE

Class of 2011 will never be getting jobs.

I'll take $80k to sit on my arse!!

-3rd year

What is going on at Paul Hastings? I haven't heard about them in a while.

So instead of paying $160k and at least getting some billable hours out of it, Cravath is willing to pay $92k and get zero billable hours. That means Cravath expected its first years to be billing 400 client-paying hours at most (assuming a very low billable rate and reasonable overhead costs). What a shitty firm.

Give me a break! Can you all not READ????

$65,000 plus health care (plus $1,000 in loan assistance).

The incoming (or maybe not) associates will be getting paid to NOT WORK AT ALL!!!! Sweet.

So the next two incoming classes are significantly larger than expected. Expect most of those additional junior associates to be stealthily laid off in the next few years.

In other words, if you're a Cravath '09 or '10 associate-to-be, and nobody at the firm is showing any particular interest in you right now, keep your resume polished.

If you are a rising 2L or incoming 1L....consider yourselves lucky. DROP OUT OF LAW SCHOOL.

If you're a 2L with great grades, go ahead and go through August OCI. If you dont get a summer offer, you should seriously just drop out. It will probably be soon enough that the school wont charge you tuition for 2L Fall.

Dont rack up 200k in debt. It's simply not worth it anymore. Go to Business school or get on the employment search in a different industry.

The class of 2009 (and I'd also include 08) has racked up all of the debt and walked right into this thing. You would be stupid to follow suit. You can finish law school later if things start to look better.

CravaTTTh..... A shadow of its former self.

If you got $80k for nothing, would you:

a. relax, sit on your ass all day...do nothing;
b. invest half of it in low risk mutual funds and then take the other half over to my friend Asadulah who works in securities; or
c. do two chicks at once.

Discuss!

Hey Lat:

Ellie couldnt handle this one on his own. He couldnt handle reiterating a leaked memo and add the same boilerplate commentary that he has on every layoff article for the past two years.

Fail.

Wow, this is really bad for the class of 2011. A MANDATORY delay for those entering Oct. of 2010 will put them right into the class of 2011. Why would Cravath have any reason to hire during this summer's OCI? IF they do hire, it will be a very, very few.

If you got $80k for nothing, would you:

a. relax, sit on your ass all day...do nothing;
b. invest half of it in low risk mutual funds and then take the other half over to my friend Asadulah who works in securities; or
c. do two chicks at once.

Discuss!

Hey Lat:

Ellie couldnt handle this one on his own. He couldnt handle reiterating a leaked memo and add the same boilerplate commentary that he has on every layoff article for the past two years.

Fail.

I hope the associates will change their minds about BigLaw and consider applying to be the AmeriCorp IG: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090612/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_national_service_inspector_general

-BHO

!!!!BREAKING NEWS ALERT!!!

-Drudge called; he wants his siren back.

Wow, this is really bad for the class of 2011. A MANDATORY delay for those entering Oct. of 2010 will put them right into the class of 2011. Why would Cravath have any reason to hire during this summer's OCI? IF they do hire, it will be a very, very few.

I am pounding Evan Chesler in the ass right now.

VERY generous, you i think the language "assured" is a little bit interesting. better than sidley's nonsensical "we contemplate you will begin in january 2011" or shearman's generally crappy offer.

i have to say it seems the class of 2011 is getting screwed more than anyone... if cravath just pushed their summers back a year, are they gonna have the balls to hire another slew outta the rising 2Ls?

Incoming first-year at CSM, and I haven't received any emails or phone calls about this.

The ship be sinking...

Incoming first-year at CSM, and I haven't received any emails or phone calls about this.

35 - How about $160K + health and medical benefits + overhead costs (floor space, secretary, technology, etc.) + training costs?

This isnt top of the market and here is why:

Even though they don't have to, Cravath deferred associates will want to find a job during their time off. But the firm is offering in the deal during the middle of bar study when many other great firms offered a similar package months ago. Those people have now taken a lot of available pro bono or non profit legal jobs out there already. I wouldnt be surprised if some out of NYC cravath associates have already laid a deposit down on an apartment. So yeah, they are getting a little bit more money than Weil or Latham people, but they are putting in the associates in unbelievable corner. This deal sucks compared to others offered months ago

50-52 - then you aint as incoming as you thought.

Fix the title you FAT, LAZY BUCKET OF LARD

"VOLUNATRY" IS NOT A WORD

I heard Skadden is doing deferring to 2011 as well.

50/52,

That may be great news for you. It says they want up to half of the incomings to take a voluntary deferral. It's unclear whether they offered everyone this option. Perhaps that means you are starting at the normal time. Good luck.

CravaTTTh. Also, Elie, "volunatry" in the title? uh

I would suggest to all deferred Big Law associates that they use this free money to gain real experience as attorneys to prepare for when their offers are invariably cancelled. T14 grads will be competing with legions of toileteers for the lowest level gutter work and will need every possible advantage.

57--is that true about Skadden or a rumor?

53, the floor space is already rented and paid for. Most staff are already hired and are fixed costs. Deferral doesn't change those costs. But you can double the marginal costs per associate, and still wonder why Cravath doesn't expect the deferred associates to bill more than 800 hours a year to break even for the firm as an employee.
- 35

54,

Then break the lease, lose the 2K down deposit you put on it, you got 78K to go rent a house in Florida, lie on the beach and drink cocktails all day. Still worth it!
No loan payments either! I'd take that in a heartbeat no matter what I had already planned.

43,

I'll tell you what I'd do, man: two chicks at the same time, man.

To all you foolish newbie attorneys and soon to be newbie attorneys: If a firm like Cravath is forced to do this because of the economy, imagine what a lesser firm (like Mayer, DLA, Pillsbury, etc.) will ultimately be forced to do? If Cravath can't afford its associates, then your firm certainly cannot. Offers will be rescinded by many firms, and soon.

Get ready for it Class of '09, it won't be long now!

To all you foolish newbie attorneys and soon to be newbie attorneys: If a firm like Cravath is forced to do this because of the economy, imagine what a lesser firm (like Mayer, DLA, Pillsbury, etc.) will ultimately be forced to do? If Cravath can't afford its associates, then your firm certainly cannot. Offers will be rescinded by many firms, and soon.

Get ready for it Class of '09, it won't be long now!

Cravath paid me off with a bevy of 12 year old male prosties.

James Colliton

65/66 = 2009 grad with no job jealous of his classmates that outperformed him/her.

VOLUNATRY?

16- we both know who was first.

The omg first guy

Who wants a Fresca?

43,

I'll tell you what I'd do, man: two chicks at the same time, man.

63 -

54 here. you would take that deal and move to Florida, but with Cravath personalities do it? No, they are gunners, and to satisfy their self worth they would have to search for a good job to have during their time off. Thats why this deal sucks. Incoming associates are cramming for the bar right now and have no time to find a job, and a lot of the jobs they would be looking for are gone.

69 = racist.

Do you also make fun of blacks who say "aks" instead of "ask"?

"Volunatry"=fail

35/62 - Points taken, but if they are deferring all 150 incoming 1st years, that is a lot of unused floor space and underutilized secretaries. Also, forgot to mention the extra year of matching contributions Cravath would have to make under its retirement plans if 1st years started right away.

At this point, incoming associates might want to lay low in Sicily for while, under the protection of Don Tommasino, until things cool off a bit.

I see "voluntary" in the headline.

Where are all the prestige whores now?

unless your last name is Cravath NO ONE is "assured" of a job in 2010.

Wow. If there's no strings, I wonder if an attorney could collect this, and then also go find and work another job? Clerk? No non compete?

Totally outrageous opportunity for an energetic summer associate able to obtain an offer.

And a Clear Sign that the class of 2010 is -- beyond a select few able to get summer offers -- doomed if their aspiration was biglaw.

THats a sweet offer. $80K for no work ==> best backpacking trip ever.

26 - 56 - 59 - 69 - 75 - 78: The headline typo was fixed after the fact.

Let's see....$80k in NY city is equivalent to about $44k in a city such as Charlotte, NC. Take out taxes, etc, and your take home is less than that.

If you are a CSM deferee, you can't afford to live in NYC absent another job, which I would highly recommend. Then again, paying your health insurance and $1000 in loans is nice. Overall, pretty good deal. And despite what Elie suggests, your job is not guaranteed to be there in 2010.

Things are not going to get any better in the next few years, shit-tons of kids are going to head off to law school because its not even worth looking for jobs after college this year. At the very least one class graduating law school in the next 4 or 5 years is going to get royally screwed.

66 - you are a perfect example of why lawyers are pathetic businessmen and women. You are presuming that a firm's 'prestige' has a causal relationship with its revenue and expenses. While a 'lesser' firm *might* not have the kind of clientele (i.e., revenue) as CSM, it also might not have the extraordinary expense of 150+ incoming associates. In addition, 'lesser' firms have engaged in high profile layoffs, creating a talent gap at the lower associate ranks. Because CSM *is* so prestigious, there has been virtually no voluntary attrition during the recession, creating the need (at this firm) to defer.

HTH

I'd take the $80,000 and go on a tour of Salusa Secundus, Kaitain, Wallach IX, and Gamont, where I'd do two chicks at the same time.

Win-win-win!

And,no, I'm not going to Giedi Prime. You couldn't pay me to go there.

Even with the chance Cravath changes it mind, to go travel the world and have a year off having fun while making fucking 92K (with the loan repay) and Cravath at least SAYING I have a job next year.....I would take that offer.

Why pay people 80K to do nothing when you can just rescind the offer/fire them? I don't get it.

It's not like there won't be a long line of people still waiting to be employed by them when things start getting better.

RIP Biglaw

My advice: spend the year in Vegas.

Wait for Partner Emeritus to inform us how pathetic we all are and how pathetic all of these firms are.

62

There is a reason for this. You are correct that if an associate earning $160K bills 800 hours, the firm would break even. However, the firm does NOT want associates to "experience" Biglaw working life billing 800 hours. If a first year associate bills 800 hours in his first year of working for Biglaw, that will stick in his mind and it will be hard push him when the firm needs him to bill 2200 once the economy picks up. However, if you defer half the 2009 class, the remaining 2009 starters will still be billing 2000+, and the deferred 2009 associates starting in 2010 will also start billing 2000+ when they start. So every Cravath associate will only ever understand the concept of billing 2000+ hours.

This reminds me of the time I ate a piece of pizza, then went over to a 60-year-old man's house and made him fuck me in the ass in front of his kids.

62

There is a reason for this. You are correct that if an associate earning $160K bills 800 hours, the firm would break even. However, the firm does NOT want associates to "experience" Biglaw working life billing 800 hours. If a first year associate bills 800 hours in his first year of working for Biglaw, that will stick in his mind and it will be hard push him when the firm needs him to bill 2200 once the economy picks up. However, if you defer half the 2009 class, the remaining 2009 starters will still be billing 2000+, and the deferred 2009 associates starting in 2010 will also start billing 2000+ when they start. So every Cravath associate will only ever understand the concept of billing 2000+ hours.

The firm cannot allow them to experience the unrealistic life of billing 800 hours, because that will create a weaker associate.

84,

You can afford to live in NYC on 80k a year. Obviously you grew up wealthy and have no appreciation for money and the notion of sacrificing the things you don't actually need. To those of us who actually grew up here and know the city, 80k is more than enough. You can live off of 45k even.

CRAVATH NEEDS TO FALL OUT OF THE TOP 3.

Unreal - paying people 80K to NOT come to work. And people wonder if biglaw is effed up?

Oh how the mighty have fallen....

I don't understand this stuff. It would be far easier to just fire the whole Human Resources staff and keep the attorneys. Human Resources departments are completely worthless!

-Denny Crane

65-

Unlike Cravath some firms don't complete overlever and hire too many associates. Cravath and their "peer firms" (fuck you Partner Emeritus) are all levered in the 3.0-5.0 associates per partner range. If you work for a firm which is closer to 1.5-2.75, they don't have to do all of this shuffling to keep these people in the fold.

Further, to all you people wondering why do this instead of just not hiring the people - gaps of whole class years in their ranks will create a situation in a couple years where they hardly have any midlevel associates (the most profitable kind of associate), so they are trying to avoid that.

73,

That's why cravath sucks. Although prestigious, you're forced to work with douchebags. Couldn't pay me to work somewhere like that. I'd take a more chill, less prestigious firm, less hours anyday.

Then again, Cravath is full of the type of people who are prestige whores, put their wedding announcements in the NY times, and register for $5K ice buckets for their wedding. I'd take working with construction workers in queens over that type of person.

Dont get the obsession with prestige in biglaw. Get paid $160K, who cares what the name is (and I know, cravath gives our ridiculous bonuses. . . still not worth it to me to have a ton of money to be surrounded by miserable douches).

Just a biglaw gal from a blue collar family opinion here.

I just came all over my secretary's keyboard.

103rd!!!!

ecckk yum yum yum

HOLY CRAP. I'm so pissed at Skadden right now and my paltry 55K stipend.

WTF SKADDEN

96

Sure, you can live in NYC on $45K, but why would you want to?

You'd have to live in crappy areas like the Bronx like Bedford-Stuyvesant, East New York, Brownsville, Ft. Greene, Crown Heights.

Enjoy popping your collars at the denizens there.

If I had 80k I would probably send it to the Nigerian bank that promised me many riches..

Every day the prestige gap between Wachtell and Cravath, or even S&C and Cravath, gets wider and wider.

89 = MORON

I'll never forgive Cravath for forcing The Adonis, a gay porn moviehouse, to close its doors when Cravath moved in next door on 8th Avenue.

Can you link to the bloomberg story?

"And they are assured a job in fall 2010."

That was the most hilarious part of the entire post. Thank you for this.

106= TITCR.
I'd rather live in Baghdad than anywhere in NYC outside of Manhattan. In fact, when people from outside of Manhattan tell me they're from NYC I hire someone to laugh at them.

I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do know - when a law student defers his start date until 2010, he is entitled to no less than $80,000 plus medical and loan benefits. Thank you.

This is an amazing deal. $65K or 80 is easy to live off of in nyc. My bro works for the Times and makes 40 and has no problem doing what he wants. This should be considered a perk, an opportunity for all these hardworking young people to do what the want for a year.

I think all the concern and "ship sinking" language is overrated. Cravath has a HUGE number of incoming associates and no out-going associates. They also have slightly less work than before. Why wouldn't they offer this deferral? Having people sit around without enough work is demoralizing, and this way they keep the people who volunteer to defer on tap for next year when there's more work. Also, given the way Cravath assigns its associates, I suspect the decision to defer will be made by incoming associates on a partner-by-partner basis.

97- obviously at S&C.... and obviously a fool... the top 3? top 3 of what? vault? who gives a shit other than an idiot like you who can't stand that they aren't number 1 or 2... the vault is a survey of ASSOCIATES--- wtf do you care about what some associate thinks about a law firm? guess what-- in the partner survey.. Cravath is number ONE buddy. And in pretty much any and every other assessment of law firms, Cravath is ranked higher than S&C and Wachtell. As is Skadden. And it has nothing to do with bonuses or deferrals. It has to do with client respect of the firm. And that's why Cravath is prestigious. Not because of idiots like you who vote in a survey by the biggest bullshit in the world known as Vault

106,

I agree completely with everything you said.

But, some people live in NYC because it's their home and they have a love and appreciation for NYC...regardless of how much money they make. Others live there to feel important and prestigious. Obviously, you need a lot of money to make that fantasy feel real.

as a former cravath para-legal....i am so happy I decided to go the government and policy route in Washington D.C.!!!

So are they really going to interview for new SAs when they are already so back loaded next OCI?

DIDN'T GENERAL MOTORS PAY ITS "LAID OFF" WORKERS FOR NOT WORKING? HOW'D THAT WORK OUT? NO BAILOUT FOR CSM!

101-

If a deferee doesn't start until the next class year anyway what is the difference? In 5 years that person will have the same experience at the firm as the person who was just hired the next year anyway.

Or is this not about experience and just about saying how many #1 Yale Grads you have at the firm?

UnfrozenCavemanLawyer = the worst. Simply the worst, ever.

115,

How much school debt does your brother have, and how many people live w/ your bro?

as a former cravath para-legal....i am so happy I decided to go the government and policy route in Washington D.C.!!!

Cravath's offices on 8th are really really nice.

smoke 'em if ya got 'em

TTT grad here. I am so happy this is happening. I so much enjoy your pain, your suffering, your depression, your misery. Now you know what it is like to have NO Job and NO prospects. Better yet, once you start dumping your resumes on shitlaw firms, they will end up in the garbage heap just like TTT resumes do at “top” firms. Oh, the pendulum has swung.

The timing of this announcement is truly nasty.
They should have known about this "to big of an incoming class" for months and still they gave way t many offers for their summer class. Thise people in the summer class might have a much better option that can actually offer then work in fall 2010!!! now they are stuck!!! Cravath should have changed the name of its summer class, 6-7 months ago, to be called "a summer work with NO possibility of employment upon graduation no matter what" so those summers would be warned.
I am happy I am not one of those summers.

115, does your brother have children? law school loans? Hmm... didn't think so. Does he live in an apartment the size of a closet or does he live a million miles away from the city or with 10 other people?

"And they [class of 2009] are assured a job in fall 2010."

Hilarious. Remember when the Cravath class of 2010 was assured a job starting sometime in 2010?

Associate - This is about Zion.

Biglaw Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.
There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the layoff of every associate in this world.

This actually isn't all that different from what a lot of firms have done. Most big firms deferred associates to January and got about half of them to defer until Fall 2010. As I read this, I see that Cravath is only doing the second half of that. The firm is still planning to start half of its class in the Fall of 2009 (not January 2010 like the others). That's 75 first-years. Thats more than most of the biglaw firms.

The real drop in prestige and status among these giant, elite firms will not occur during or even right after cost cutting moves like deferrals, layoffs, salary cuts etc. I disagree that "top talent" law students will boycott these firms... at least not yet. As Cravath said in its memo, existing lawyers are hanging on to their jobs. Firms are on one hand disadvantaged by this since it is not the usual way things work and they were blindsided, but on the other hand firms are taking advantage of this, and firing/cutting salaries of TONS of associates under the guise of the economy so they can overwork remaining associates while paying them much less than before. What does this equal? Tons of $$$ to the higher ups even when everyone else is suffering. Wake up people: the economy is a pretext. Lawyers are opportunists, and if you can't read between the lines, you are not as smart as you think.

Believe, Partners and Management are CASHING OUT before the REAL tidal wave hits:

The REAL paradigm shift will come as soon as the economy picks up. Presumably, after all the layoffs have taken place, these huge "prestigious" firms will have kept their top talent. But when business starts coming back in and firms are re-hiring again, you think that top talent is gonna stick around at a firm that made them do the work of two associates for half the pay?

Hell no, these associates will take what they learned about law firm management, they will take their resentment for all those canceled vacations and late nights on a frozen salary, and they will turn it into drive and motivation, and they will start their own firms. As soon as the economy upticks, power players who survived layoffs, now armed with experience and motivation, will jump ship and hang out a shingle, taking their motivated peers with them, and make some serious money. All the risk-averse no-talent drones will be left to occupy BigLaw, and this will lead to BigLaw's TRUE demise.

Remember, all these prestigious firms started out with a coupla guys with some talent and some motivation. It's time they're replaced.

Who cares about paralegals? So super impressed with your DC policy route, until you realize that most gov't employees in DC couldn't find their ass with both hands and a road map.

How many incoming Cravath gunners will actually volunteer for deferrals? My guess is it will be a lot less than half of the incoming class.

101,

I don't think that's it, although anything's possible. These kinds of actions really reflect efforts to preserve the institution, not marginal profitability two years from now. Pretty clearly they don't want clumps of attorneys they will need to lay off a year from now. Better to be shorthanded.

More likely that partners saw the HUGE size of their classes compared to everyone else, and tore up the hiring committee member.

The lack of attrition mentioned in the announcement is interesting. Presumably many Cravath attorneys got a word to the wise at some point their career and levered the network to go out and be GC's at banks, investment funds, hedge funds, etc. No more such entities. Dozens of former Cravathers were already out in the streets anyway from last year's blood bath.

128 - You moron. Any job prospecTTTs you had are being taken away from you by T14s.

Remember when CSM lowballed the market bonus after Skadden came out. Why they'd do that if there were gonna blow $80k on people not to work?

135=class of 2009 graduate who just got pushed back or dont have a job....smdh

The timing of this announcement is truly nasty.
They should have known about this "to big of an incoming class" for months and still they gave way t many offers for their summer class. Thise people in the summer class might have a much better option that can actually offer then work in fall 2010!!! now they are stuck!!! Cravath should have changed the name of its summer class, 6-7 months ago, to be called "a summer work with NO possibility of employment upon graduation no matter what" so those summers would be warned.
I am happy I am not one of those summers.

110 - now that they have so much time on their hands, I bet the Cravath partners are sorry they chased The Adonis out of the neighborhood.

Change has arrived for the class of 2009 at Cravath.

I'm Barack Obama?

This shows that Cravath may be in trouble.

Could we be looking at a Thelen situation here?

Although Skadden got good press for the sidebar program, I bet this move by Cravath gets horrible press. The reasons seem apparent to me:

1. Timing is awful within the legal community - bad.
2. Although there is a some good in the offer, the amount ($80K) for no pro-bono or other work seems to exemplify the extravagance that biglaw is hated for. Clients looking for lower wages cannot be happy with a firm paying out about $100K (80 + 12 (loan repayments) + 7 (health care) for a deferrall to entitled kids. - payment is overinflated for the rest of the world - bad.

Just my thoughts. Name only takes a company so far, then it comes down to are you paying for services, or really just for a name.

I especially like an earlier comment telling those soon to be first years to keep their resumes "polished." Let's see, aside from the second career folks, most will have meaningless internships (albeit sounding impressive); exaggerated responsibilities at said internships; meaningless hourly wage gigs (with of course exaggerated managerial responsibilities - Asst. Mgr. at Gap (wow)); meaningless entries related to law school (trust me, being on law review or moot court are no longer impressive, nor is studying abroad); and other trivial space-filling entries that are either self-inflating or wishes not grounded in reality.

The best thing you can do is take the money, evaluate what you want from life, get a job, and don't wait for the phone to ring or the mail to arrive. If on the other hand you are too self-absorbed and think your "unique talent" is required at a law firm, please, please, please, please, by all means keep that bag of garbage polished, because when we start hiring again, we will need you to help replenish the secretaries and other staff we had to let go.

Although Skadden got good press for the sidebar program, I bet this move by Cravath gets horrible press. The reasons seem apparent to me:

1. Timing is awful within the legal community - bad.
2. Although there is a some good in the offer, the amount ($80K) for no pro-bono or other work seems to exemplify the extravagance that biglaw is hated for. Clients looking for lower wages cannot be happy with a firm paying out about $100K (80 + 12 (loan repayments) + 7 (health care) for a deferrall to entitled kids. - payment is overinflated for the rest of the world - bad.

Just my thoughts. Name only takes a company so far, then it comes down to are you paying for services, or really just for a name.

106, you have got to take Crown Heights off that list. You can get a nice apartment and good roti at will. I can assure you the denizens there will not give a shit about your collar. And Ft. Green is in full gentrification mode now. In any event, equating those two places with East New York is bizarre and ridiculous. That entire analysis shows you have never set foot in Brooklyn past the BAM. Since there is no commonality of social economic status among these neighborhoods, your regard for the "denizens," by which I think you mean "black people", may be the reason.

122-

Because they're still going to be full of shit and call class of '09 people 2nd years when they start...just you wait.

I especially like an earlier comment telling those soon to be first years to keep their resumes "polished." Let's see, aside from the second career folks, most will have meaningless internships (albeit sounding impressive); exaggerated responsibilities at said internships; meaningless hourly wage gigs (with of course exaggerated managerial responsibilities - Asst. Mgr. at Gap (wow)); meaningless entries related to law school (trust me, being on law review or moot court are no longer impressive, nor is studying abroad); and other trivial space-filling entries that are either self-inflating or wishes not grounded in reality.

The best thing you can do is take the money, evaluate what you want from life, get a job, and don't wait for the phone to ring or the mail to arrive. If on the other hand you are too self-absorbed and think your "unique talent" is required at a law firm, please, please, please, please, by all means keep that bag of garbage polished, because when we start hiring again, we will need you to help replenish the secretaries and other staff we had to let go.

I especially like an earlier comment telling those soon to be first years to keep their resumes "polished." Let's see, aside from the second career folks, most will have meaningless internships (albeit sounding impressive); exaggerated responsibilities at said internships; meaningless hourly wage gigs (with of course exaggerated managerial responsibilities - Asst. Mgr. at Gap (wow)); meaningless entries related to law school (trust me, being on law review or moot court are no longer impressive, nor is studying abroad); and other trivial space-filling entries that are either self-inflating or wishes not grounded in reality.

The best thing you can do is take the money, evaluate what you want from life, get a job, and don't wait for the phone to ring or the mail to arrive. If on the other hand you are too self-absorbed and think your "unique talent" is required at a law firm, please, please, please, please, by all means keep that bag of garbage polished, because when we start hiring again, we will need you to help replenish the secretaries and other staff we had to let go.

116 is spot on.

I agree, Cravath's offices are probably top 5 in NYC.

smoke 'em if ya got 'em

97- obviously at S&C.... and obviously a fool... the top 3? top 3 of what? vault? who gives a shit other than an idiot like you who can't stand that they aren't number 1 or 2... the vault is a survey of ASSOCIATES--- wtf do you care about what some associate thinks about a law firm? guess what-- in the partner survey.. Cravath is number ONE buddy. And in pretty much any and every other assessment of law firms, Cravath is ranked higher than S&C and Wachtell. As is Skadden. And it has nothing to do with bonuses or deferrals. It has to do with client respect of the firm. And that's why Cravath is prestigious. Not because of idiots like you who vote in a survey by the biggest bullshit in the world known as Vault

34 - Well let me tell you what's going on at Paul Hastings (at least in NY). Associates continue to be dumped by ones and twos for "performance." The corporate/re areas are completely dead and litigation is slowing. Finally, there are rumours that the firm is having a problem with their creditor. Not good, not good.

I think all the concern and "ship sinking" language is overrated. Cravath has a HUGE number of incoming associates and no out-going associates. They also have slightly less work than before. Why wouldn't they offer this deferral? Having people sit around without enough work is demoralizing, and this way they keep the people who volunteer to defer on tap for next year when there's more work. Also, given the way Cravath assigns its associates, I suspect the decision to defer will be made by incoming associates on a partner-by-partner basis.

131 --

It's voluntary, so starting in fall 2009 is still assured. If you WANT TO, you can get $96k + health insurance to watch TV all day, with an assured job in one year.

CravaTTTh
Let's see who is TTT now !!
Oh the suffering!
Oh the misery!

Why not pay them $100K to bill a regular 40 hour work week? Or is there really nothing to bill and the firm would rather save the newsbies any embarrassment?

All the Ivy eliTTTes put together at CravaTTTh didn't see this one coming.

117: While I agree with you that talking about "top three" is pretty stupid, your defensiveness about Cravath's prestige is a little embarrassing.

Why Cravath is dead:

50% of $ came from (1) lending (JPM/CS), (2) IPOs (JPM/CS) & (3) M&A. Those markets are dead - as are the clients.

Unlike its peer firms with advisory/regulatory offices in D.C. and in thriving industries, Cravath made $ the old-school, Wall-St. way, which no longer exists.

Were I at Cravath, I'd start looking for exit options about yesterday.

"I disagree that "top talent" law students will boycott these firms... at least not yet. As Cravath said in its memo, existing lawyers are hanging on to their jobs."

There is a difference between hanging onto a job you already have, and proactively interviewing for that same job. Why would ANY 2L interview at Cravath, Latham, etc. this fall when they know those firms don't want or need them? The firms that get top talent will be those smaller firms that offer job security and the chance at a reasonable start date.

As much as people care about "prestige" they also care about MONEY. Even the best deferral payments aren't equal to the salary at midsize firms in smaller markets, or small firms within NYC.

140-
135 here not a 2009 grad have a job just think bragging about being a paralegal is like bragging about banging a fat chick
-135

40, is correct. If you are a rising 2L in law school and hope to get a Biglaw job, think again. Cravath (and some other big name firms) will not be recuiting on your campus this fall.

"Remember when the Cravath class of 2010 was assured a job starting sometime in 2010?"

Sounds vaguely familiar. Is there a link somewhere?

Why are you all so worried? The world is going to end in 2012 anyway.

unfrozencavemanlawyer = UVA inside joke.

should have stayed inside.

Hey crackas, listen to me: First, my baby daddy gonna tax that $80,000 to the motherfucking hilt. Then, after you give all you cracka ass money to the gubmint and think y'all are gonna start your job at that big fancy law firm in 2011, my baby daddy gonna get the gubmint to make your damn contracts unenforceable! And none of you Jews gonna be able to get close to him or pull no restatement 90 on him, cause my homegirl Sotomayor be on da bench!

163-

no one is braggin....just letting it be known that there are other options than biglaw and NYC...

is latham REALLY looking so bad right now?
considering the number of stealth layoffs that must have occured in the v20 in NY since NONE of those firms confirmed layoffs and clearly laid off hundreds of attorneys.

shame on Cravath for deferring so late in the game...

Crawfish Swaine and Moore, more like

"unfrozencavemanlawyer = UVA inside joke."

That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard, its a bit back when SNL was actually funny, not when MegaSmug Tina Fey and douchebag Jimmy Fallon ran the show into the ground.

It has nothing to do with UVA, or anything inside anything, its a Phil Hartman skit, and the poster did a pretty good job mimicking it.

God you younger people are so stupid.

At least they didn't layoff more than half their first years like Latham. I'd take Cravath over Latham any day of the week, but most people do.

I do not see what is so bad about this. This fall you apply to DOJ Honors, SDNY, other entry level gov't agency positions, any other USAO office you'd be happy living in the locality, any local prosecutor office you in a locality you'd like to live in, public defender office, state attorney general office, etc.

I graduated Class of 2006. My options were Biglaw at $135k (and because of ATL eventually $160k) or the jobs listed above at $40-60k. That was an opportunity cost of ~$100k.

Class of 2009 your opportunity cost is Biglaw at $0 or government job at $40-65k (federal salaries have gone up since I graduated). In other words, you have no opportunity cost to taking these jobs. It's a blessing in disguise.

156-

One of the associates they dumped had a fair book of business, but no "rate insensitive" clients.

Looking good, Michelle! Though I bet you won't be so uppity when Alex Rodriguez impregnates your daughter.

Everyone needs to relax.

They hired 150 incoming associates. That's a huge class. They are starting 75 first-years in September-October-November. That's even more than most firms (NY offices) are starting in January, 2010. They gave the most generous deferral package to the other 75.

This is nothing new to dwell on. Most firms have done this, and Cravath has offered a better deal than most.

- Deferred incoming associate not at Cravath

63 et al other idiots that don't understand income taxation --> 80k before taxes --> in NYC about 45-50k take home pay. Still a great fucking deal.

How in the world do firms save money by deferring associates when they give them a $92,000 stipend + health insurance?

Wouldn't it be just as profitable to have them at the firm billing 60-80 hours/month, with the possibility of more, particularly if things pick up?

Would be nice if the firms made a habit of laying off or downsizing partners instead of associates.

Finally, Staten Island FTW!

poor form csm

shame on you

you've had diligence on this ever since you started your bankruptcy group (why did you start it?)

and you wait THIS LONG?

shame, shame, shame

Without question, the past year has been difficult at every level of the legal profession (from secretaries to paralegals to 1st years to mid- and senior level associates up to senior partners). Salary expectations at all levels have also become dramatic, but with the debt of law school or an inflated mortgage or other commitments, it is hard to begrudge anyone at any level if we stare at the situation soberly. The decisions by the top firms to make dramatic changes should be cause for us all to think how we can improve our profession and how we can support one another. The prospect of losing a job (or not getting one) is harrowing, and firms that truly assist their staff in adjusting, law schools which provide support for their students and organizations which provide further guidance should be applauded, encouraged and receive excellent press. Biglaw does require personal sacrifice that can never be adequately compensated, which is precisely the reason it stings so hard when we are on the receiving end of the pain the financial crisis is causing. Notwithstanding the harsh realities of practicing at a top firm, it is troubling to see so many negative comments aimed at those who are not in our exact position, i.e., "us v. them" mentality. Tomorrow, we could be the associate faced with being laid-off, the 3rd year law student who's firm has just deferred the offer, the partner who made rational decisions on financial planning and now has to make hard choices how to meet those commitments, the secretary or paralegal who has spent years doing great work who suddenly finds the firm has changed its mind or indeed anyone at any level who quietly gets pushed out without an explanation. We are a noble profession. We must have the "courage and foresight be able and ready to shape the body of the law to the ever-changing relationships of society" (New York Lawyer's Code of Professional Responsibility). It is my hope that in these times of cutting back that limited resources can be used to support public interest, that we can try to understand that we are all negatively affected by the financial crisis, that we can carefully consider our actions and all their implications (whether that means cutting staff on the one hand or deriding decision-makers for the decisions they make on the other hand). The future of our profession is in each of our hands, and while we might not be responsible for the consequences the financial crisis, we are responsible for our words, deeds and attacks. I hope that we can remember to consider the dignity of each individual before taking decisions and criticizing decisions.

Would be nice if the firms made a habit of laying off or downsizing partners instead of associates.

Finally, Staten Island FTW!

Latham went from "best-managed firm" a year or two ago to "TTT" over the last year or so...and now w/ this post goes back to "best-managed firm." Well, maybe not "best," but certainly "well-managed" and "ahead-of-the-curve."

146 (and 150 and 151) - Keeping one's resume "polished" is just a figure of speech. Thanks for the pointless discourse, in triplicate, on the relative job skills each type of unemployed lawyer out there possesses.

156: The rumours are coming out of LA.

$80,000? I'd take it. That's more than I'm going to make as a clerk next year.

This is indeed tragic news as we all know that deferrals are tantamount to persona non grata status at the firm. My earnest advice to the "deferred" is to take the money and hang a shingle. You are done as far as being able to work for a peer firm. My forecast is suddenly coming to fruition. Hybrid tough love is next...

184- I forwarded your novella to Scribners. I think you've got what it takes, though I didn't actually read it (too long)

anyone who thinks being paid to stay away for a year along with the vast number of unemployed attorneys is a great opportunity is nuts....

How many incoming Cravath gunners will actually volunteer for deferrals? My guess is it will be a lot less than half of the incoming class.

I agree, this is going to look bad to the rest of businesses in the economy. As companies are struggling to stay afloat, to give your business to an expensive firm that has the financial ability to dish out 100K x 75 lawyers for them to do nothing is insane.

I'd be looking at somewhere else to take my business if I was in the decision making part of a company needing to expense out millions of dollars in legal fees.

168 - dude, that is NOT a picture of Michelle Obama... the moustache is a dead giveaway.

181: If you have 2 first years billing 1000 hours each it costs you $320,000 plus benefits (I won't count overhead such as office space and support staff as those are only somewhat variable). But if you pay one of them $92,000 not to show up then you have one associate billing 2000 hours for $160,000, for a total of $252,000, for a savings of almost $70,000. I'm sure they have business consultants that come in and show them large scale numbers with predicted acceptance rates, etc. Plus if things pick up in a year you still have at least some deferred associates with a link to the firm that will come back and you don't have to go out and recruit as much. This was the same thinking behind the Skadden program.

A lot of law firms are a train wreck waiting to happen.

Due to the credit squeeze, banks are not able or willing to finance firms that are unable to bring their costs down and have a deteriorating partner/associate level.

Thus, a lot of firms are bailing out associates while frantically trying to keep rainmakers and x number of partners on board.

I foresee a lot of pain and misery for partners this fall. Can you imagine being 54, have no job, and $2.5 million in debt.

The CSM associates who have $80K should point and laugh.

195, if you have 2 associates billing 1000 hours at 85K a piece, you got the same thing. I'd do that.

193: It beats the hell out of being deferred and not getting a stipend.

- deferred V100 associate with $0 stipend.

197 that works if you're willing to blow up the pay scale for working associates but so far no firm has been willing to be the first to go that far.

180 -- they should really make it two lump sum payments, one in 2009 and one in 2010. Better for tax purposes.

193, this is something that most clients don't give a crap about. Fortune 500 companies spend millions every year on the same stuff. When a big company offers early retirement to an entire factory, or assumes 6 months of "job training" for laid off employees, you think they'll care in the slightest what Cravath does here? You think a company that pays its outgoing CEO $30 million in appreciation for destroying their market cap really worries about how Cravath deals with its excess personnel?

I don't really understand why people keep repeating the mantra that lawyers are bad business people. How many small businesses do you know where each partner takes home over a mil a year?

LOL at Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer being a UVA inside joke.

Your world scares me.

Cravath's news is the fourth horseman of the apocalypse.

The dream has died.

134, you're operating on the assumption that all these fancy pants top 5 biglaw associates are self motivated entrepreneurs that want to make their own way in life. In reality most of them think they already did everything they needed to do in life in law school, and that their super awesome law school diploma and honors now entitles them them to a lifetime filled with vast sums of money and lockstep pay raises regardless of merit.

So no, when the economy picks up they won't be hanging out their shingle, they will be looking for the next guy willing to pay them tons of money to be their monkey boy. If their firm is still wanting them to be their monkey boy, then they will be their monkey boy.

202: other businesses don't have the incredible barriers to entry that lawyers and law firms have

147 nailed it - "...the amount ($80K) for no pro-bono or other work seems to exemplify the extravagance that biglaw is hated for. Clients looking for lower wages cannot be happy with a firm paying out about $100K (80 + 12 (loan repayments) + 7 (health care) for a deferrall to entitled kids."

176- Because lowering their outrageous rates is not an option, at least until everyone else in NYC does it. They basically shitted on my small book for the same reason.

201,

Maybe they should so the economy can be more efficient, and law firms can be more efficient, and hence things will improve for all.

Just my thoughts.

168 and 177 are offensive. I an therefore announcing today a government takeover of ATL using TARP funds and appointing a comments czar to moderate the comments here.

I'm Barack Obama?

Michele Obama is ugly.

There, I said it.

It is just plain rediculous for a business to pay newly hired, but never put to work employees this much money to stay away from work. Want to know why America is going down the tube? Obama and fucking law firms with no sense, that's why. Time for a change. Let BigLaw rot on the vine.

"147 nailed it"

Stop congratulating yourself. Do you think any client gives a fucking shit what the firm pays their employees? When you go to the hospital, do you wonder how much the orderlies are paid? When you hire a plumbing company do you care how much Jose is paid to fix your leak for his work? When you go to a golf course do you care how much the greenskeeper gets paid?

This is another lie perpetuated by BIGLAW that moron associates somehow believe. Yeah, you're right, BIGLAW is the only industry where their customers care more about what their vendor's employees wages are as opposed as to what they are billed for the services provided.

I can't believe BIGLAW has survived this long with so many stupid people involved in it.

"Obama and fucking law firms with no sense, that's why."

Yes, because the current economic situation started with Obama's election.

There are some intelligent conservatives out there. You're not doing them any favors.

Which is the correct expression of apathy?

"COULD care less"

or

"COULDN'T care less"

I need confirmation by 2:00 p.m. ET. Serious replies only.

213,

I didnt write the 147 nailed it. Someone else did.

Also, I do care if one golf course charges me 1/3 more than another. Look at the rates of Cravath per hour, compared to some other firms. They are more, they staff more, they think they are better.

If I was wondering if a golf course cost more because it was better and then found out it's comparable to the cheaper golf course with the same amenities, yet just had some fancy pants name then yeah I'd care.

It's the same with cars idiot. Some just buy more expensive cars based on name that are just as comparable to lower cost cars (acura v. toyota).

You have awful reasoning skills.

147

212, ever hear of farm subsidies?

201, I agree with you in theory, but in reality I'm not sure that this option is actually less "efficient." If you want true efficiency you'd have to be much, much more comprehensive. You'd need to make changes at law schools, firms, clients, the judiciary, etc.

But under the circumstances, there are alot of societal benefits to taking the route Cravath has taken, rather than just lay off 80 people. Most of them will be gone in a few years anyway.

- 201

"Yes, because the current economic situation started with Obama's election."

At some point the employment figures become Obama's baby, at some point being so openly hostile to private businesses and their presence in the American economy needs to be taken into consideration.

If you owned a business, would you hire anyone right now?

215 - "could care less" is American and "couldn't care less" is British

Client Troll here agrees we don't care too much about Cravath one way or the other, no matter what we do, and none of our kids works there anyway. I have to say, however, that whoever hires them often ends up with lawyers better than ours, which is not a big deal to us, but may be a big deal to Cravath's clients.

HOWEVER, we all HATE law firms with lavish new digs like those in Chicago. Our dollars out the door. We have our own boardroom for example.

"Also, I do care if one golf course charges me 1/3 more than another. Look at the rates of Cravath per hour, compared to some other firms. They are more, they staff more, they think they are better. "

My God you are a fucking idiot, you just proved my point, clients don't care about how their vendors compensate their employees, they CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE CHARGED, let me repeat what you wrote:

"Also, I do care if one golf course charges me 1/3 more than another."

I AGREE! What the fuck does that have to do with employee compensation?

And even assuming your point is even halfway correct, what do you think a client cares about more---a partner taking $3,000,000 in profits or the firm paying off an offered employee $80,000 not to show up for a year and potentially avoid lawsuits?

"You have awful reasoning skills. "

Too easy. You should demand a refund from your college/law school.

215:

Don't both express relatively the same sentiment?

If you COULD care less, it means that thing does NOT occupy the bottom-must rung on the ladder.

If you could NOT care less, it means there is no more room for caring, which means the thing occupies the bottom-most rung on the "care" ladder.

Entiendes?

214 -

No, but it started in 2006 when the economy was humming along and Democrats took over the spending, blew the budget and racked up debt. Culminating with the quadrupiling of the previous administration's debt in BHO's first 5 months of office.

Reap the whirlwind liberals. REAP IT!

- not 212

176

PH needs to get with it. There are no "rate insensitive" clients anymore. They are still living in 2006.

221,

Compensation in the news for no work like this is an indicator that maybe you're being charged too much. I said it would be bad press. It opens up the box of thought of "oh wait, maybe this is overpriced"

" I AGREE! What the fuck does that have to do with employee compensation?"

when excessive employee compensation is in news. . . not even employee compensation, but potential employee compensation. . . then yeah, I'd think, I bet there's a better pricecd solution out there.

You forgot the entire point of my original post moron. Bad press. That was all. Domino effect possibility because of the bad press.

Fucking moron.

Latham is still the biggest TTT in NYC. They treat their associates like shit and fire the majority of their first years after only a few months of work. Good firms like Skadden offered a paid deferral. That looks much better on your resume than a fucking layoff and you get to go back after a year.

Fuck Latham and fuck Dave Gordon.

"At some point the employment figures become Obama's baby"

Like I said before, there are intelligent conservatives out there and you are not helping them.

Cravath does a ton of work for wall street banks and private equity firms. It's no wonder they are telling the incoming associates not to show up.

In a few months, they will start telling some of the junior partners to take a walk. Business at this firm has slowed by about 50% in the last six months.

222 - yes, the meaning of the two expressions is the same. It's just the Americans say "they could care less" while we say "we couldn't care less". I realise if self-proclaimed wordsmiths that lurk on this url want to pick it apart, they can certainly do so and show how very little they have to do of substance. However, such silliness won't change the meaning that people on both sides of the Atlantic attach to the expressions. Off to the pub. . . too late to be sitting here!

2 Cravaths 1 Cup

221,

What about ~8 million in money to someone not to show up for work. That's what is being offered. ~80 incomining associates at ~100K a peice.

That's more than the 3 million you claim.

not the original poster, but thinking they have more of a solid argument than you do.

35 -- you haven't a clue! Every hour the deferred associates would/could have billed will be earned by remaining associates sitting around with time on their hands. With no added revenue, 92K makes a heck of lot more sense than $160++ (you failed to include employer payroll taxes and other vagaries beyond your grasp).

Try finding a job in this economy with 4 months of Latham on your resume and an admission to the bar in NY. It is fucking difficult as hell.

If Latham had done this to a few slackers, then fine, but they didn't. They laid off a little more than half the first years in NY, and a shitload of first years in the other offices. Plus these people were given no notice. Building cards shut off at 6:00 the same day, and people were told to be the fuck out by Sunday.

Stay away from Latham. All these firms are going through hard times. What differentiates them is how they treat their associates.

"214 -

No, but it started in 2006 when the economy was humming along and Democrats took over the spending, blew the budget and racked up debt. Culminating with the quadrupiling of the previous administration's debt in BHO's first 5 months of office.

Reap the whirlwind liberals. REAP IT!

- not 212"

Well if she meant Democrats, she should have said so. Waving Obama around like a red flag makes her (and by association, other conservatives) look like they just have an irrational dislike for the current president.

225, you've obviously never owned a business or otherwise in the this thing we call life where we constantly engage others for services.

Can you even begin to tell me why the legal industry is so special that their clients are specifically interested in associate compensation? Are they equally concerned with secretarial compensation? IT expenses? Lease overhead?

Do you think that a client walks into Cravath and asks how much their rates go to pay for those (admittedly) very nice offices? How is that different from associate comp? They are both costs of doing business.

"Fucking moron. "

A compliment from you...but seriously answer this question that I'll repost it...

Can you even begin to tell me why the legal industry is so special that their clients are specifically interested in associate compensation?

As someone that's run a business for two years, I can tell you no other industry focuses remotely on employee comp.

-221, yeah I'm the fucking moron, answere the question dipshit.

Which NYC firm will be the first to drop back down to the $145k pay scale?

"Like I said before, there are intelligent conservatives out there and you are not helping them."

Because you know, we can go to 15% unemployment it will still be W's fault, right? What a waste of a post. If you had a point, you might want to try making it.

234 - That humming you heard in 2006 was actually the timer on the giant bomb that went off last year.

My buddy from Latham says the partners there aren't doing anything to help the laid-off folks find jobs. They hired some outplacement company that typically services the finance industry.

CLASSY, Latham.

130 - If you can't make it in NYC with 80k you are an idiot. Don't give me this crap about loans, because if I read the post correctly, CSM is offering 12k in loan repayments on top of the 80k. I work in Big Law (as a paralegal) and with OT, make roughly about the amount that is being offered by CSM. I have a shit-ton of undergrad loans (70k or so). Yet, I am still able to put away about 20% into my 401k, make about 1k in loan payments, and live very comfortably. In the BX, but so what? You want to fancy yourself as some big shot NYer, go ahead. Meanwhile, I will keep my car, my 1000 sq foot apt, and 2 minute walk to the subway (I know, not quite a 3500 sq wife and Lexis, but it will do for now). Can't make it on that much? Well, you are fucking out, and I'm fucking in.

235,

I never said they cared. LEARN TO READ. I said that this move is bad, because it's bad press, cause it shows that there is excess $, excess compensation, and hence possibly excesive billing rates.

And yeah, I can name a few situations where people are pissed off about compensation. Let's think about something you may have heard about. . . how about the excessive AIG payments? Or maybe the auto industry? Hell, for you to understand, how about engineering firms that base field pay on hours in the field? I know in the civil engineering firm I used to work for, these were things that were actually negotiated prior to work done (EIS, etc.)

There's a few. You're business must be failing miserably.

130 - If you can't make it in NYC with 80k you are an idiot. Don't give me this crap about loans, because if I read the post correctly, CSM is offering 12k in loan repayments on top of the 80k. I work in Big Law (as a paralegal) and with OT, make roughly about the amount that is being offered by CSM. I have a shit-ton of undergrad loans (70k or so). Yet, I am still able to put away about 20% into my 401k, make about 1k in loan payments, and live very comfortably. In the BX, but so what? You want to fancy yourself as some big shot NYer, go ahead. Meanwhile, I will keep my car, my 1000 sq foot apt, and 2 minute walk to the subway (I know, not quite a 3500 sq wife and Lexis, but it will do for now). Can't make it on that much? Well, you are fucking out, and I'm fucking in.

"Because you know, we can go to 15% unemployment it will still be W's fault, right? What a waste of a post. If you had a point, you might want to try making it."

My point is that you sound like you just have an irrational dislike for Obama. People who sound irrational don't get taken seriously. People who are associated with people who sound irrational also get taken less seriously as a result. So like I said before, your venting actually hurts the intelligent conservatives out there, who frankly speaking have enough on their plate as it is.

If you learn that your vendor is overpaying his employee compared to other vendors, you might reconsider whether you should stick with the same vendor, even if other vendors charge the same rates. You would think about how you'll get more value from vendors who don't overpay on useless stuff and spend your money on things more useful.

Given the choice between a $20k GM car and a $20k Toyota car, one could easily choose the Toyota car because its far less bloated union payroll means the company is spending more money on more useful things.

I give up.

"I never said they cared."

uhh

"Clients looking for lower wages cannot be happy with a firm paying out about $100K (80 + 12 (loan repayments) + 7 (health care) for a deferrall to entitled kids."

So why would they not be happy if they don't care. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you meant "rates" rather than "wages."

" . how about the excessive AIG payments? Or maybe the auto industry"

The people complaining were TAXPAYERS, not customers. The person that bought last yeat a GMC probably didn't CARE as much about employee comp as opposed to what they paid.

"I know in the civil engineering firm I used to work for, these were things that were actually negotiated prior to work done (EIS, etc.) "

Congratufuckulations, I negotiate with vendors all the time, including hourly rates that I am obligated to pay...I have NEVER asked how much of that "hourly" rate went to service the employees hired to do the job. NEVER.

Quit when you are behind.

242 - "I have a shit-ton of undergrad loans (70k or so)."

Double or triple that and then you have the average lawyer debt. GFY. You will be next. That's what you don't realize. You make that much with OT...which you won't have when your firm also cuts your hours and freezes your salary. If any law firm is paying that many people to do nothing, they will NOT pay you eventually.

156- LA troll here. The rumour is that PH is close to a covenant default on their line of credit. Cash flow being the problem.

I just blue myself prematurely

Look at all these Latham trolls. For first years, Latham = no deferral stipend, no health care assistance, no loan assistance, no job security. For those taking deferral for a year, Latham = smaller deferral stipend, no health care assistance, no loan assistance, no job security. Weil and now Cravath are much more accommodating to future associates.

Wait, let me make sure I understand this correctly. It is being reported that CSW, who services "wall street "clients, is willing to pay $8 million ($80k x 100)to recent law school graduates with little to no legal training/experience?

You really think that the press is going to be all over Wall Streeters for making too much money but not care about their attorneys? Aside from the business perspective that this practice should raise an eyebrow, from the government perspective it may be even worse.

Politicians want to put a $500k cap on all executives working for firms that took TARP money ("Wall Street") but look the other way at how much their lawyers make? Shareholders are arguing for a say in executive compensation and you guys actually think that the lawyers will still be able to make more than the executives?

At the very least, it is extremely difficult to argue that "nobody cares" what the attorneys make and all that matters is their supposedly unmatchable work product.

"If you learn that your vendor is overpaying his employee compared to other vendors, you might reconsider whether you should stick with the same vendor, even if other vendors charge the same rates. You would think about how you'll get more value from vendors who don't overpay on useless stuff and spend your money on things more useful. "

1) How often do customers ask and know about employee compensation, do you think every employee's salary is available on open record? Even at some BIGLAW shops lock-step isn't necessarily lock-step.

2) As a businessperson, I could always assume (in the event (1) above is not correct and compensation is 100% transparent) that the vendor values its employees more and is willing to pay them more, perhaps even at the expense of their own PROFIT (how does one even begin to determine what "overpaying is"?).

I don't understand it. If BIGLAW charges $400/hour for an associate, what on earth makes it the client's business if (A) the associate is an indentured servant and its $400 profit to the firm and a no-overhead land, (B) its $100 profit to the firm, $100 to pay for overhead, and $200 comp for the associate, or (C) we're in la-la land and the associate gets the whole $400? It truly is a unique industry if its a concern of the client that is preoccupied with other matters, such as doing business.

245 - rate you negotiate is often correlated with employee compensation.

Lets say a place pays an employee $10/hr. and you want to negotiate what they charge you of $20/hr, then the company wont want to go below a certain point. If company B pays the employee who does the same job $20/hr, then if you negotiate with them, they wont want to go as any lower than above the $20/hr which is the starting value of negotiating for the first company.

Thank you. Takes a bow.

Wait, let me make sure I understand this correctly. It is being reported that CSW, who services "wall street "clients, is willing to pay $8 million ($80k x 100)to recent law school graduates with little to no legal training/experience?

You really think that the press is going to be all over Wall Streeters for making too much money but not care about their attorneys? Aside from the business perspective that this practice should raise an eyebrow, from the government perspective it may be even worse.

Politicians want to put a $500k cap on all executives working for firms that took TARP money ("Wall Street") but look the other way at how much their lawyers make? Shareholders are arguing for a say in executive compensation and you guys actually think that the lawyers will still be able to make more than the executives?

At the very least, it is extremely difficult to argue that "nobody cares" what the attorneys make and all that matters is their supposedly unmatchable work product.

It is a good day for a three-hour lunch.

If the Latham trolls spent half as much effort looking for a job and networking as they do pissing and moaning about something had happened months ago, they'd have jobs.

Cravath hires a lot of the "prestige" kids from the ivy league. Most of these students had mommy and daddy pay for their schooling. Hence, entitled douchebags who will cry at the offer of a measly 80K.

247:

They need to trim the bloated, useless administrative structure at PH, as well as the bdev imbeciles.

if i don't have law school loans, can i just run up a huge CC bill and have CSM pay it off?

The problem with this proposal is that the incoming associates have no idea how bad their lives are about to get if they decide to work for the firm instead of taking the year off (assuming the firm has enough work to feed them the way it wants to feed them). Trust me guys: TAKE THE YEAR OFF AND HAVE FUN! You have the rest of your lives to be miserable once you get back into the law.

So the taxpayers care about wall street companies, whom they bailed out, paying their executives too much, but nobody cares that the same bailed out the companies pay absurd legal fees that provide annual salaries in the millions?

I beat off in the shower every morning.

I beat off in the shower every morning.

220 here again. Cravath's clients (eg investment bankers) are willing to pay for what Cravath has to sell. On any given transaction, expecially a billion dollar plus, the investment bankers make money hand over fist, tens of millions in loan commitment fees falling over the side of the table. But only if the deal goes!! So they are the ones who hire Cravath, with a broad base of superior expertise, to make sure the deal goes through. I've worked on those deals, and seen the Cravath atorneys (or the Wachtell attorneys etc) go through some mind blowing second or third derivative exercises in strategy and problem solving.

The investment banks are utterly indifferent to price , and if getting Cravath involved requires three or four associates to listen to partner's thoughts, so be it. What mattered is that the deal went through. As a casual example, they may come up with a new regulatory approach and need to see it to whomever at the agency. When it comes time to sell, they've likely worked with or for that person before.

We, on the other hand, have much more pedestrian, workmanlike firms involved, also making millions, typically to chase imaginary rabbits dreamed up by my in house counsel colleagues looking to justify their own in house existence. They are great attorneys, I would hire them always, refer people to them always, trust my life to them -- but its a different more straigtforward practice.

Not only are the deals gone now, but the investment banks too!! There is not currently a market for much of the specialized expertise that Cravath and others have to sell (although the bankruptcy work going on is pretty sensational -- )

So really, what's a law firm to do?

And I assure you, most of the Cravath partners probably read that they were hiring so many attorneys for the first time when they saw the ATL posting a week or so ago!! They just arent' that organized.

NOT A CLASS MOVE TO TELL YOUR INCOMING ASSOCIATES TO THINK ABOUT NOT COMING TO WORK AT THIS LATE DATE. I'D RATHER WORK FOR LESS AND BE PRODUCTIVLY EMPLOYED THAN TAKE $80,000 KNOWING THAT I WILL NOT WORK IN 2010. THE HANDWRITING IS ON THE WALL...THERE ARE NO POSITIONS WAITING FOR THOSE WHO TAKE THESE DEFERRALS.

NOT A CLASS MOVE TO TELL YOUR INCOMING ASSOCIATES TO THINK ABOUT NOT COMING TO WORK AT THIS LATE DATE. I'D RATHER WORK FOR LESS AND BE PRODUCTIVLY EMPLOYED THAN TAKE $80,000 KNOWING THAT I WILL NOT WORK IN 2010. THE HANDWRITING IS ON THE WALL...THERE ARE NO POSITIONS WAITING FOR THOSE WHO TAKE THESE DEFERRALS.

246 - Reading comp -learn it. I have a bone to pick with the people who say that 80k in NYC is not easy, law firm management and pay structure is not something that I was commenting on.
I realize much more than you are giving me credit for. I am not saying that it is pretty out there. Nor am I saying that Law School debt is easy. That is why I am not living in some white glove doorman building on the UWS. I am just pointing out that living on 80k in NYC is very manageable, easy in fact. Not to mention that if CSM is giving this money without making anyone actually stay in NYC. Also, I don't have my firm giving me 12k to assist with student loans, so at least for that year, it is a wash.
Yes, I could be next, but for the time being, I am working and making the best of a bad situation, but it really irks me to see the level of entitlement exhibited by snot nosed law grads (regardless of where they went to school). Let me call the wahhambulance because you may have to live in Brooklyn, or god forbid in a 2br apt with a roomate.

240; 242: 1000 sq ft apt in the BX...enjoy that. I'm sure your kids love the space.

"245 - rate you negotiate is often correlated with employee compensation.

Lets say a place pays an employee $10/hr. and you want to negotiate what they charge you of $20/hr, then the company wont want to go below a certain point. If company B pays the employee who does the same job $20/hr, then if you negotiate with them, they wont want to go as any lower than above the $20/hr which is the starting value of negotiating for the first company.

Thank you. Takes a bow. "

But your "example" doesn't even take into account the client's knowledge of the comp, hence its not applicable. I thought the argument was that clients "cared" about employee comp. In your example it appears that the figure is never revealed.

Its a complete non-sequitur, but thanks for trying.

I've done business with hundreds of contractors, not once in my lifetime has the issue of how much they paid their employees been the subject of a bill, particularly if its construction related when its likely that the workers are immigrants (hopefully legally), all I care about is that I'm indemnified by any malfeasance. I don't care if they pay 100 workers $10.00 an hour or 50 workers $20.00 an hour, I just want the work done.

Dear T14 Grads,

Your tears sustain me. Oh yummy T14 grad tears mmmm.

-Non-T14 Grad with a lot of time to go on his federal clerkship

I believe that in the near future, much of the legal work on the public bankrupcy's will come under press, judicial, and federal scrutiny for the high billing rates that are being used on such public dealings. Anyone who doesn't think that will happen is insane.

255, who is hiring laid off first years? tyia

"It is being reported that CSW, who services "wall street "clients, is willing to pay $8 million ($80k x 100)to recent law school graduates with little to no legal training/experience?

You really think that the press is going to be all over Wall Streeters for making too much money but not care about their attorneys?"

Great God almighty, ummm, the $80,000 isn't necessarily paid in a vacuum, in the event you think you care law firms care about their reputation, its (A) some sort of goodwill to protect their reputation with future offerees, and also (B) its a darn good way to avoid lawsuits, regardless of the merits of potential claims.

Hey original guy fighting with me over the compensation thing, just letting you know I've only written 2 of the 20 responses above. So you're responding/arguing to probably 10 other people. Just the FYI.

267 - I am only 26 y/o, so thankfully no kids. There is always Jersey, Park Slope, Riverdale, etc...the point is that 80k without major loan obligations is easy.

I really don't like Sarah Palin, but I have to admit that I found David Letterman's jokes about her daughter inappropriate.

247 What cash flow???

273, I'm well aware, as also the fact that the younger generation of associates are about as dumb and impressionable as their reputations indicate.

The next smart argument that clients care about employee comp. will be the first...I've read non-sequitur after non-sequitur, my favorite is the "gotcha" that outrage over AIG exexutive comp. is remotely relevant to the issue at hand.

What are schools teaching you guys these days?

156 What about Luc, the $5 mil bankruptcy jackass in NY? Did he get a piece of the auto bankruptcy pie?

268,

The point is that in the legal community (Big law at least) compensation is know. It's posted all over this blog. Ask anyone who deals with BIGLAW how much a first year makes in NY and they know its 160. That was the point of the analogy. Go back and get your GED.

"267 - I am only 26 y/o, so thankfully no kids. There is always Jersey, Park Slope, Riverdale, etc...the point is that 80k without *major loan obligations is easy.*"

Without major debt obligations, yes. Triple the obligations you have and then you might have some idea of what we are talking about here.

What the fuck is wrong with people and this stupid website? Seriously, just click the "post comment" button once and don't refresh the page. Though, it isn't all your retarded ass's fault, the ATL site must be run on an Apple II-e or some shit. You guys get what, like a hundred thousand page views per week, and you can't afford faster servers or better scripts?

Step up, ATL, and restrain your clicking fingers, posters.

Cravath = Trig Palin of law firms

278 - Negative.

-156

277,

Anyfirm doing the legal business of the bail out companies will have their compensation scrutinized and if excessive, in the press. That's a given. If a firm doesnt realize that, then they deserve to fail.

"The point is that in the legal community (Big law at least) compensation is know."

Well, you realize that the example provided by the post I responded to wasn't.....so do you agree it was a BS example?

" It's posted all over this blog. Ask anyone who deals with BIGLAW how much a first year makes in NY and they know its 160."

Which is how much of the legal industry?... first year NYC BIGLAW doesn't dominate client conversations, regardless of how much you think. And again, lock-step ain't exactly lock-step...it never has been.

"That was the point of the analogy."

Which provided an analogy where comp wasn't known...your point being?

" Go back and get your GED. "

Compared to the logic on these boards, I feel like Einstein multiplied by Galileo with to the Hawking degree.

"Anyfirm doing the legal business of the bail out companies will have their compensation scrutinized "

Sweet Santa Claus fuck, and who do you think will be scrutinized more? The junior associate or the partner making 15X the junior associate's compensation?

Has this board hit the idiot tree today?

286- scrutinized by partner or associate wont matter. it will all fall on the associates anyways.

first!! but probably second or third by now :-(

Deferral Bonus: No need to wear pants for an entire year!

SCORE!

This comment is addressed to the deferred, unemployed or recently outplaced attorneys that will no longer be working at peer or non-peer firms. Take your stipend and invest in the following product:

http://www.justtoiletpaper.com/bernardmadoff.shtml

Buy it in bulk and then set up a makeshift kiosk by the courthouse during Bernie Madoff's sentencing later this month. I am sure this product will sell like hotcakes, especially since thousands of Madoff's victims will show up. Buy in bulk and sell each roll for $10.00. Thank me later.

269-
hahahaha, really? You're bragging about working a CLERKSHIP next year? How much does THAT pay? Isn't that actually, like, WORK? That sounds fucking terrible.

Or are you just happy about the fact that as a non-T-14 grad, you have less debt or something? What do you mean about "a lot of time" - were you deferred too? Was yours 80k plus medical plus loan expenses? Cuz if not then STFU you silly goose.

Holy ballsack, this post is weighing heavy on my briefs.

Question: A number of firms are giving large stipends for associates deferred one year. Sometimes the money is linked to a public interest job, sometimes (as in this article) not. What happens if, at the end of the year, the associate decides not to go to the firm (maybe they dig their public interest job)? Is the money purely compensation for the year's performance (and so may be kept regardless of starting work at the end of the deferral), or is it contingent on the associate's commencing work at the firm? If contingent, how long must the associate work at the firm before they can leave without returning the stipend?

can someone please out PE?

TYIA

comment 288 wins

293: It depends. Some firms specifically said that there is no clawback at all. Others haven't said anything. It would be fairly hard to clawback, though, if that term isn't in the document you sign when you take the deferral money.

Has anyone had that term in their offer documents?

293:
We should really look at that question from the perspective of section 90 of the Restatement. I would say that Cravath has a pretty strong case for detrimental reliance against associates who don't return.

The excess of the 1980's is back! Seriously guys, take it from an 80's dollar-jockey like me -- this is an amazing deal.

Clients care about employee comp because in theory, that's what should be tied to an individual associates billing rates. If I'm a company that hires a firm, and that firm drops compensation across all levels 10%-15%, I'm going to demand my rates fall by the same margin. Further, if the firm I'm at charges me the same billable rate as a $160k firm but are a $145k firm, I'm going to switch to the $160k firm, because at least in theory the attorneys at the $160k did better in law school/were smarter/grasp things better or whatever. That's why those associates got the higher paying job (again, in theory). So from one standpoint, I care about employee comp a great deal. Do I care what the ACTUAL number is, be it $160k or $300k or whatever? No. But I do care about it when I'm comparing those numbers to "peer" firms and "peer" firms' billing rates.

It would be really funny if CSM associates take the $80K stipend and then at the end of the year be told that their services are not needed and, oh, here's a bill for the $80K that you owe them.

So in addition to a $150,000 student loan debt, you owe Cravath $80,000. What fun!

291,

2 year federal clerkship, 40 hours/week. I have job security, I probably make more per hour than you, and I have very, very low loans outstanding. But hey, have fun working for poor wages while living in fear.

-269, a.k.a. non-T14 grad with a lot of time to go on his federal clerkship

301,

You don't have job security. You have a two year clerkship. Job security = career employee in federal agency.

300 -- you have to be the stupidest person on this board. Where do you see any indication that this money needs to be paid back?

The fact that Cravath is doing this is extremely bad news for the industry. Further evidence that the mythical January start dates will not be honored.

303 - as a deferred incoming associate (Jan), what should I be doing to get ready for the inevitable shit hitting the fan? RIght now, I'm studying for the bar, but after that...

Scared 3L

Can't help it if you're too dumb to understand the concept of "clawback".

This is a friendly reminder that the practice of law is not suited for you.

Find something else.

300 - for the first time ever on ATL, your described the PERFECT fact pattern for PROMISSORY ESTOPPEL!

I have no particular opinion on Latham. But for the Latham troll(s) -- I was walking by the Latham DC office yesterday morning or the morning before. It was about 10 am. I was on the sidewalk near the front door walking in the direction of the Starbucks. All of a sudden this little silver Mercedes comes flying out of the underground parking garage. The guy driving didn't stop to look for pedestrians or traffic or anything. (There’s a lot you cannot see when coming out of an underground parking garage.) He nearly hit me as his pimpmobile crossed the sidewalk getting onto 11th Street. For some reason I thought it would be some huge tough-looking guy driving the car. But no, it was a little 90-pound dude with carefully blow dried hair and suspenders. Perfect looking d-bag. Age 30s or 40s. I am guessing he is big time Latham. Tell him he needs to slow down.

303

Fat and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

You think that CSM is giving out $80K stipends like candy out of the sheer goodness of its heart?

If you can't quite grasp the unlikelihood of BigLaw having heart, be prepared to have a size eleven a**hole after BigLaw is done with you.

304 -- we won't be starting in January, so I would plan accordingly. I suspect the firms will call us at some point in August/September with the bad news that, "since work has not picked up, the start date will be pushed back until [_____]."

"Clients care about employee comp because in theory, that's what should be tied to an individual associates billing rates."

Exactly,

(1) you say its in theory, because that is what it is, not real practice. Obviously any fim lowering associate salaries is also lowering billing rates accordingly, right?

(2) that theory is not practical business reality, unless (broken record starting) the legal profession is specifically unique in its ability to tie directly employee compensation to its revenue productions, and its uniquely transparent.

Wow! This is an amazing deal - $65K or 80 to take a year off and travel after law school is a real perk. Cravath did it right!! No sidebar program though for other associates -- too bad. I would take that deal if my firm offered it.

I'd love a year off from mining gold and cutting down trees!

Zug Zug!

I'd love a year off from mining gold and cutting down trees!

Zug Zug!

80K will only get you a snickers bar after a few years of Barack Hussein Obama's monetary and fiscal policy. America to a piss-poor, leveraged to the hilt latin american country!!

282 needs to be shot. Preferrably in public.

And it should read "Cravath = the David Letterman of law firms." Idiot.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

The focus here on the deferred hires misses the larger point. CSM needs to defer because their associates aren't leaving in normal numbers. Even those with solid records have no where to go. It's not like they want to stay, no one is hiring since there is no work. The ripple effects are just beginning to be felt.

309 makes a great point. I'm actually amazed by the number of announcements issuing now. I'd expected to see them in the fall as well.

But another issue will be Class of 2010 right ? If Cravath is telling SUCCESSFUL summers flat out that they won't be starting until OCTOBER 2011, that allows ALL other firms to do so if they wish.

Maintain a low financial profile, and spend as little money as possible. Get a good recipe for rice and beans -- if you're gonna look for work, use that personal network and or develop some expertise in something.

what law school graduating class gets hit the hardest 09, 10, or 11

Get a job in a bodega on the Lower East Side.

The "stipend" is telling you that you have no future at CSM.

I just misjudged a fart and I'm in the office. I'm wearing khakis, too. What should I do?

Take a deuce in your partner's office and leave the khaki pants (but take your wallet!) and nonchalantly walk down the office and go to the nearest J. Crew and buy a new one.

Everyone gripes about how Cravath associates or so self-possessed and obsess over the firm and its prestige. This may be true.... but it's kind of tough not to get that attitude when everything you do is obsessed about by every other lawyer out there.

Many firms have deferred, none of them giving the sweet deal Cravath is giving, and you are an idiot to think that now that Cravath has done it that every other firm save for Wachtell is going to.

Wonder what the ass of Cravath will say about all this?

Maybe the ass of Cravath is somewhere sipping through its ass a Mai Tai in some exotic Polynesian island somewhere?

Isn't a cravath just a huge crack formed by two glaciers colliding?

I'm sorry, I have a lisp....

cravath =/= crevasse

Go back to reading comprehension 101, tard.

Hey 326 -

Try saying the word 'crevasse' with a lisp, moron

327

Sorry about your tiny pink lithp.

TIME TO POUND SOME ARSE!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. . . fuck the entitled douchebag 3Ls who were all "oh, that's where you're going? I'm going to Cravath"

HAHAHAHAHAHA

my september start dates look good now doesnt it?

323,

Call me an idiot (and many do) but yeah, I think every firm that wants to is going to make summer associates offers and defer them to October 2011 -- unless they are clerks or nepots.

I also think they are not going to offer them deferral stipends. Then they can say they got offered, and take their chances on its being there. They can pick up everyone and anyone they need out of 3l's unable to find work and laid off associates looking for a new gig. And it wont just be New York.

There are two groups of lawyers. The very best, like those at Cravath and those who never could and never will be. The action of Cravath today is classy and business savvy. If I am a lawyer I would love to work in an organization at Cravath.

SUMMERS RISE

CRAVATH FALLS

QUINN REMAINS

332 - something tells me that you already do.

Sorry 310,
I'm a bankruptcy lawyer. What I do each month and what I'm billed at are transparent, and subject to the review of other cousel, U.S. trustees and the court itself. I forget it's not so transparent everywhere else in law. [Speaking of, if you want to have some real fun, go pull up the fee applications of the big firms doing bankruptcies... it makes for great reading].

-299

269/301/2-year-clerk:

Your very low loans outstanding are because you went to a shitty school where you couldn't get a biglaw job but instead get to clerk for mediocre wages for 2 years and then you don't have "job security" because your job ended. Your (highly unlikely) greater per-hour pay is because you chose "quality of life" for two years over high pay - which is a fucking retarded choice for someone to make if they're going to go to law school in the first place.

But hey, enjoy your government job after your clerkship!

I am not a lawyer; I am a client. 332

332 - it figures, you can't write for shit. Does Cravath represent your pre-school in a pro bono capacity?

does this mean the truth will finally emerge about the cravath stealth layoffs?

155 -- whence your supposed "partner & client rankings" of law firms? Apparently, you are the only one who knows or cares about them b/c, as we all know, Vault is the only ranking system that gets much attention. Making up your own ranking system to place Skadden top 3 does not square your theory w/ reality. You are clearly a bro.

"Sorry 310,
I'm a bankruptcy lawyer. What I do each month and what I'm billed at are transparent, and subject to the review of other cousel,"

I'm sorry you missed the entire fucking point, unless your compensation is transparent and is available to everyone on the planet? Does the bankruptcy judge on planet idiot get your W-2?

--310 and too many other posts to mention, but the guy that made a bunch of people look like fucking idiots.

Seriously, is the average IQ on this board 15?

233 - the first step on the road back to reality is simply to admit that you were one of the worst performers at Latham and that is why you were fired.

271 - you had your chance and you got fired for being among the worst. Why would you expect any other firm to even consider hiring you after that?

338 LoL. My child's pre-school tuition is more than your salary. Best of luck in this hard time.

Don't worry, the displaced CSM attorneys will always have a soft landing place at Boies Schiller -- they take in all the Cravath rejects and castoffs -- now if only they had any active cases over there to keep attorneys busy...

$60K prestige, gunners.

CravaTTTh

That felt good.

Some thoughts:

1) It's really shitty that CSM cheaped out on its hard-working employees on 2008 bonuses and then proceeds to hand out stipends (which are really just "Go-Away Forever Payments") to the talent it deems less worthy

2) If there are stealth layoffs going on at Cravath, well, then the attys there that consider them stealth are seriously thick. Hey kids, every 12-18 months at Cravath, your arse is on the line. It's called "The Cravath System" and it's not related to the recession--it's been going on forever. Cravath culls the chaff regularly, and it always has. Idiots!

3) 8MM is the cut of approximately 2 Cravath partners in a good year. In other words, chump change.

4) If you don't think that Cravath and every other firm "tiers" their incoming associates based on prestige, you have your head up your ass. All firms pick their favorites before you walk in the door (based on your resume, your daddy's connections, etc.), and let attrition and performance shake out the bad eggs

5) Most of you are too young to remember the effects of the dot-com bust. Guess what? In 2002, many consulting firms, law firms and even banks did "deferrals." Many of those fresh graduates who deferred never returned, and they didn't get stipend. Most of them got a "Dear John" breakup email and their hopes dashed. That will happen, and it will happen to the kids that were not chosen as favorites before they even walked in the door. Let's get real here.

Godspeed. Cravath was and is still a great firm. It will remain such post-recession as well.

Asides:
May Gideon's Pyramid grace the credits of Law & Order forever. Long live the Cravathateria! The Cravath Chronicle! Long Live Jennifer Roofe, Ernie in Supplies, and Veuve Cliquot at Closings! Here's to The Viking, purple pens and binder clips as ponytail holders. The Rainbow Room Christmas Party and the Big Apple Circus and Zoo Party. Cravath! Cravath! Cravath!!!!!

--Former Cravather, current fan of Paul Cravath

342,

yah, latham is such a meritocracy. that's why the bar failing partner's son was the only bar failer to keep his job.

Don't forget that Cravath also has an extremely burdensome lease. It was so bad that real estate websites were cackling about it. When that is added to their huge oversubscription they are really fucked. They probably do still have work, but not enough to maintain the kinds of PPP they want. Meanwhile other peer firms have done a better job at planning their expenses.

Frankly, I have been across the table from them plenty of times and they are good, but nothing special. Their current prestige is probably based on riding old prestige. Cleary, Davis Polk and Paul Weiss consistently do better work than Cravath. Cravath isn't even that large of a firm. They are treated with a significance they no longer posess.

OH NO!!!!!

This is bad news because I wanted to work there and I WORKED SO HARD to get good grades at Western State University College of Law!!

Well, I guess with my credentials, I can get a job anywhere and make boatloads of money!

348= hilariously obese, high net worth, and self-loathing

I feel awful for the class of 2011, which it looks like is going to bear the brunt of this. I bet very few firms recruit for next summer. And even if they do, it all seems very touch and go.

That said,
Sweet, sweet deal for the class of 2009. They got the end of the excess in wining/dining terms, and they can start this fall if they want, this January if they'd prefer, or take an 80k vacation and return next fall.

Less impressive for the class of 2010 since there's no choice and the compensation is reduced. But if they're irked enough about it, there's always the chance to reinterview at the end of the summer if they think another firm would be more stable and guarantee earlier start dates.

Cravath isn't losing nearly as much as people think here. What they've basically done is get three years worth of summer associates in two years of summer recruiting. I highly doubt they'll recruit much if at all for 2010, which means the 40k in salaries, plus training, plus entertainment, etc. won't be required and can offset the money paid to the deferred associates. This still means they made an error in judgment, but it also means they can recoup a lot of the cash they're spending this end-October next May-August, which may not be as much of a hardship.

it is what it is

CGSH/DPW/PW >>> CravaTTTh

The New V10

Wachtell
S&C
DPW
Cleary
Debevoise
Paul Weiss
Covington & Burling
Williams & Connolly

Yes that's only 8 firms but no others deserve to be V10.

More than anything to me, this shows the utter uselessness of first year associates. CSM presumably saves by paying 92 K plus to have them bill not a single friggin minute, rather than 160 in exchange for (reduced) hours.

are they deferring everyone except for a bar failing partner's son, or is giving preferential treatment to the bar failing children of partners only latham's mo?

To 357:

I will not argue that the bottom line was not a consideration here. Cravath, however, is bringing in dollars. They are not going anywhere. The partners could pay each of the associates full salary and benefits, and they would still walk away with fat wallets. Cutting costs is not the MAIN issue.

The real problem is that associates are not busy enough. If a first year remains at Cravath for 7 years working at current levels, he or she will not be ready to be a partner. The model will fail. Hence, Cravath has decided to pay people to stay away rather then firing en masse.

I am not commenting on the wisdom of paying people who have done absolutely nothing. I am only saying that I don't view this as primarily a cost-cutting measure; I see it as a save-the-system measure.

340 you are in idiot. Like a true and pure fool. The rankings I am talking about are not unknown to anyone, save for and ass like you. And either way, what I was saying is that regardless of whether Vault is the most popular ranking, it is a STUPID ranking... because all it relies on is a survey of dumbshit associates like you

I am at Latham DC and although our layoffs were brutal, there is now quite a bit of work to pass around. Numbers in other offices are substantially up as well. I don't condone the layoffs but seeing that other firms who appeared "healthy" are now having to make serious adjustments, I wonder if our management didn't actually have some foresight. For us, at least, the worst appears to be over. (Knock on wood!)

356,

Uh, both S&C and DPW have had their recession-related issues posted prominently on these pages. How soon we forget . . .

359 - Perhaps that is a consideration (as if the Cravath system is not riddled with flaws). However, your argument ignores the reduced bonuses of just a few months ago, i.e, this is primarily about the bottom line.

What a PresTTTigious firm!

Cravath leads the market in shitty news again.

Cravath leads the market in shitty news again.

lol at 356 for thinking that the firms he mentioned haven't been riddled with layoffs

To the Latham DC-er,

I worked at Latham and the numbers were consistently inflated, since people were not honest about their billables. What makes you think that the improved numbers aren't just people gaming the system to ensure they are not laid off?

well? we're waiting....

Yes, bad timing on that lease for Cravath. Signed up in July 2007 at $100 per square foot starting in 2009. A big increase from their prior lease of $39 per square foot which started in 1989. This is really going to hurt their bottom line this year and for the foreseeable future. Any firms that can renegotiate their lease during this year is going to get a much much better deal and so will have a competitive edge over Cravath for at least a decade.

361--

I am amazed you got a job at Latham. Imagine the following:

Imagine you live in a town that has 100% unemployment. Suppose, then, that the town council decides to slaughter half of the town's population because there simply isn't enough food to feed everyone. Now, what would you make of one of the survivors who said, "Well, at least we now have jobs burying the dead." So much for whistling past the graveyard.

Billables are probably being inflated, as well.

HTH

This is horrible news for the incoming Cravath associates. Keep your heads up and your options open. Best of luck to you.

How is Cravath realigning its staffing needs at other attorney levels? Have there been stealth layoffs?

Yeah, when will the other (white) shoe drop?

Cravath folds

Quinn remains!

371--the survivors wouldn't be excited about burying the dead, they'd be excited about eating the dead. We are lawyers, after all.

So where, pray tell, is the memo?

Cravath's house of cards collapses. Who is next??

If I were a summer associate I wouldn't go for this deal.

Better to stick around surfing the net or doing paralegal work at Cravath than go backpacking in Patagonia and and have nothing on your resume. Prospective employers have no clue as to what you really did.

By the way, I see a lot of associates, even senior types, doing the work of secretaries and litigation support just to be billable. The problem is they're billing the client 3X what it really costs and further driving the nail in the coffin of biglaw. Somebody ought to write an article on this phenomenon. It's very real and happening all over the industry.

379 - it's not an option for first years.

Way to rip off the Drudge Report alarm.

Way to rip off the Drudge Report alarm.

Do those who've accepted offers for 2010 so they can clerk in 2009 get anything from Cravath? It would seem to be incredibly unfair if not. The clerks actually have to work and only get in the $50ks while these deferrals get $80k for nothing and can go find other work. If they didn't make this same offer to those who are clerking it would be like a gigantic FUCK YOU for being diligent and trying to turn yourself into a better lawyer.

383--

I think the reward is a better resume. That's how the real world works....

I have to disagree with some of the people here saying that Cravath is screwing over its associates with this.
They are giving the incoming class of 2009 the OPTION of delaying a year and taking home nearly 100 ground (when you count the 1k/month stipend) + life insurance to go do whatever they want. That is an amazing offer. And if you don't like it, it's not mandatory.
The class of 2010 gets 75k to delay for a year, but if they don't like it, they still have plenty of time to get a clerkship or reinterview elsewhere. This really is a fantastic opportunity all around and is a pretty good alternative to layoffs.

Also, Cravath is one of the only top firms to have no significant layoffs. There have probably been the stealth layoffs here and there to select underperformers, but NOTHING like what's been going on at Sullivan & Cromwell, Latham, DPW, Weill, etc.

I just don't get why Cravath gets so much flak, they treat their associates as well or better than other top NY law firms.

I have to disagree with some of the people here saying that Cravath is screwing over its associates with this.
They are giving the incoming class of 2009 the OPTION of delaying a year and taking home nearly 100 ground (when you count the 1k/month stipend) + life insurance to go do whatever they want. That is an amazing offer. And if you don't like it, it's not mandatory.
The class of 2010 gets 75k to delay for a year, but if they don't like it, they still have plenty of time to get a clerkship or reinterview elsewhere. This really is a fantastic opportunity all around and is a pretty good alternative to layoffs.

Also, Cravath is one of the only top firms to have no significant layoffs. There have probably been the stealth layoffs here and there to select underperformers, but NOTHING like what's been going on at Sullivan & Cromwell, Latham, DPW, Weill, etc.

I just don't get why Cravath gets so much flak, they treat their associates as well or better than other top NY law firms.

385, the Cravath trolling is unseemly and unnecessary.

This isn't the end of BigLaw, this is the beginning of BIGGER LAW.

Law firms will seek more "leverage" and "streamlining" and "efficiency" by becoming absurdly huge, shitty places to work. Just like the accounting firms. There will be a vast number of crappy low-level associates, one secretary per twenty staffers, a 12 year route to partner, and far lower PPP.

This isn't the end of BigLaw, this is the beginning of BIGGER LAW.

Law firms will seek more "leverage" and "streamlining" and "efficiency" by becoming absurdly huge, shitty places to work. Just like the accounting firms. There will be a vast number of crappy low-level associates, one secretary per twenty staffers, a 12 year route to partner, and far lower PPP.

Rumor has it that S&C is about to do some mass layoffs and are calling incoming 2009 ppl to tell them that they are not welcome anymore.

Yeah, just kick out more loyal, hard-working secretaries who actually work for their salaries and give their salaries to the new batch of green-behind-the-ears grads (who "think" they are attorneys) to sit on their asses for a year doing nothing. That's a good use of the firm's budget.