I'm droppin a DUECE at #2!

HLS: No, I wasn't technically fired.

McD: Yes, you were.

Ouch.

Alright, ATL, no more of this crap. Screw the truth--I want a story! Don't come back with some lame follow-up on an anonymous guy that only five people could identify. From here on out, the more outrageously and patently untrue, the better.

liar~~non-citizen cannot apply a work visa when he is still a HLS student~~rather, he can apply for CPT to maintain employment status for his summer job~~

I agree with HLS 2L. Clearly he wasn't drunk, he was fueled up on some blow and looking for fight.

Way to get fired before they could even hire you, you Ivy League prick. Go rip another rail in the bathroom to even you out.

this is why blogs like this are f*cking garbage. you run a story that IS NOT TRUE before you do any fact checking or journalistic due diligence. I wouldn't be surprised that if this pathetic excuse for a blog keeps running their mouths off about innocent people based on rumor and innuendo, you are going to get sued for libel. check your f*cking facts before you ruin people's reputations. how do you sleep at night knowing that you don't provide anything useful to society besides junior high gossip and libel?

5. OPT (I assume you are talking about Optional Practical Training) isn't something that people necessarily want to use for their summer associate jobs. Mainly because you have a limited amount of OPT that you can use up.

This guy could have used up his OPT while in college, or he could have been saving it for any number of reasons. Work visa was most likely the right way to go, and quite possibly the only way to go.
--Elie

I don't really buy the visa issue - As I recall, an F-1 visa (I assume the student in question came in as an F-1) allows for up to one year of "practical training" to the extent that the training is related in some manner to the degree that a foreign student is pursuing. He should have been able to work and get paid on the F-1 without seeking a separate work visa.

I did not have a work visa for my 1L summer, so I volunteered as an unpaid intern. The only difference was that the firm could not give me "benefits" in lieu of pay, so I had to skip all SA events that actually cost the firm money. It worked out well -- I did substantially more work than the rest of the SAs, and ended up with a an offer to come back for my 2L summer.

Booooooooooooooooring~!!

I would rather work for Locke Lord Houston.

+1 to 7. Elie, you suck. I know stories around here have been quite lame the past couple of weeks, but your "reporting" is utter garbage. I love how you post one side of a story while trying to remain some sort of integrity by giving your usual caveats.

This site is mirroring our economy. Going down the toilet, and still there.

I want LAT back!! Elie, did I mention you suck?

LOL 12

Elie, Actually, he could have used CPT (curricular practical training) and "written a paper" relevant to his work. Doing CPT let's you not use up your OPT, and doesn't require the same hoops with the DHS (authorization card). It does require that a prof agree to supervise your paper.

9 here - Ellie, responding to 8, the guy could not have used up his OPT in college b/c OPT is linked to the student visa. To the extent that he went to college in the US he would have had 1 year of OPT linked to his undergrad visa. Upon applying to law school he would have needed another student visa which would have an additional year of OPT.

Also, to the extent that you have a valid student visa, I do not beleive that you can temporarily change status (i.e. from student to work and then back to student).

Locke Lord Houston smells like hot dog water.

Elie,

I did mean CPT (Curriculum Practical Training), which is just for summer job and cannot be used up as far as you enrolled as an international student. He cannot get a work visa for just one summer and switch back to student visa for his 3L (approval procedure for work visa may last over half year). He either lied to ATL or he is that stupid to be fired~~

First thread about this guy was really about affirmative action. Second post about this guy will really be about visas. boring.

15. Ah okay. I don't know a lot about CPT, which is why I thought you were talking about OPT. Is that a post 9/11 thing or has it always been there?

Still, even if there was another way to go, is it really crazy to try to get a work visa? Remember we used to live in a world where one could reasonably assume that firms would be timely about telling people when they could show up for work.
--Elie

So where did we get the original information about cursing and drunks ladeled into Taxi's? Surely someone must have been at this party! Can someone ask a waiter?

How many articles, news threads and comments do we need again to confirm that MWE is the worst firm of all time? All they care is you meeting their billable goal; personnel/personal development is last on their list of priorities.

McDermoTTT.

this explanation may be true - but why did his friend have to post vicious lies (in the previous story) about a female HLS student who had nothing to do with this story?

I was at the event and left with the summer associate. He definitely had quite a few drinks in him but was just having fun like the rest of us. When we got in the cab he told the cabbie his address. As we were leaving I also saw the conversation between the partner and the associate and I could tell the summer associate was upset at the partners attitude with him. He raised his voice when I don't think he should have. But he was at the firm for over a week after and we all knew he didn't have his visa and he had told us that he expected to be let go if it didn't come soon. I really don't think he was terminated for that brief disagreement. When we all got our smaller than expected checks on the second day he did not receive a check.

this smells like... oh yeah... bullsh*t.

there's something idiotic going down here.

Hey fucks blaming Elie. Click on the original post. Look at author. /headslap.

This site's credibility just took a bit hit.

It went from zero to minus 1.

18 - don't assume he is on an F-1 visa. He could be an accompanying spouse on somebody else's work visa (as a J-2, L-2 or H4 holder).

Elie, it all depends on what kind of work visa he's trying to get. It would be hard for him to get a H1-B or similar visa. A free trade visa (like a TN or equivalent) would not have taken as much time.

Also, even to get authorization for work under OPT takes about 2 months. From Feb. until May should have been enough time to get OPT or CPT approval.

Either he royally screwed up his strategy or his application, or he's not telling the truth.

15 (not 5 or 18)

this sounds like bullshit to me. a firm wouldnt be so backwater and douchebaggy (even a shit firm like MWE)... in any other year. obviously the firm wants to shed weight any way that it can, and this kid was probably nothing special so the firm didnt mind having a reason to terminate him without looking too bad or being able to hide behind the law.

which office?

@13 - Lat did the original post. You're an idiot.

@23 - What the hell are you talking about? Someone said, "Oh, I hope it's _____". Aside from that, who ever mentioned a specific female student? And how is that spreading vicious lies?

new york

The real story here is that if MWE let him go now because due to his lack of work permit he wasn't able to do any work, that means he has spent the past month not doing ANY work, not even fake summer associate work. If he was able to collect pay checks and go to lunches, he had the sweetest summer gig ever!

Locke Lord Houston smells worse than hot dog water. It smells more like burning feces that were put out with hot dog water.

N. Wacker Stud

I was thinking the same thing 26. People are real quick to blame Elie when, in fact, it's their idol seemed to have been the original author.

29. Don't forget that maybe HLS didn't help him out either. I mean I think we can all agree that the various classifications, options, and documentation you need for such options is very complicated. And you have to be on top of all of it in a timely manner, because of how long it takes DHS to process everything. You'd hope that University officials are able to help students out with this, but that is not always the case. You throw in a monkey wrench from your employer and it seems to me that things get even more complicated.
--Elie

28- you mean that guy kept his accompanying spouse visa and attended HLS for two yrs?

So lame. There's something called CPT (curricular practional training) which you basically just pass by your school's international office, pick up, and present to the firm upon your arrival. Can't imagine someone that's so lazy as not figuring this out actually wants to be a lawyer. Or he's just stupid enough to make up an excuse like this.

It was definitely a visa issue - he was worried about it at the end of May, before this "argument" even happened.

NO firm would have let go of someone they actually wanted... even despite Visa concerns. They let him go because they didnt want him.

@28 and 38 - He's not married.

32 - multiple posts on the previous thread referenced a specific female student, whether "oh, I hope it's ____" or otherwise. That was the mentioning of a specific female student. The "vicious lies" were what was said insinuating that she was in fact the one fired. At least, those were lies, and I'd assume that calling out someone's name in an ATL post about someone being fired, when in fact she had nothing to do with the story, is pretty "vicious."

hth

If he did work and was not paid, does he have a claim for quantum meruit?

41- u r exactly right. Biglaws all have their own immigration lawyer to deal with this visa issues. Obviously, MWE tried to disclaim its own fault. It is even better than giving cold offer to that guy later this summer.

There's a man ... goin' 'round ... takin' names.

Whatever, Harvard is still the CharloTTTe Law School of MassachuseTTTs.

@32: way to avoid the actual issue, which is some kid posted a specific name on the ATL comments and basically insinuated that this person was the one fired. Why did he do this and will he ever get over being rejected by her for a date?

@44: of course

44 -- nope, since he was working in the country unlawfully, he won't have "clean hands" and will thus be denied equitable relief.

BOOM goes the dynamite.

I blame India and North Korea.

Akmallangabad

38 - yes, I went to law school first on a J-2 then on an H4, all whilst my wonderful wife worked hard and paid the bills. These visa categories do not preclude you from being a full time student.

- 28

Comment removed by moderator.

HLS does not offer CPT (which needs to be run through the school). HLS also has an international office which is extremely helpful where they can be.

- HLS international rising 3L

53. Thanks for the clarification.
--Elie

did the HLS 2L have the opportunity to attend the Mets game / strip club outing before getting fired?

While I almost feel bad for this student, I am glad to see that at least one large private organization follows the applicable immigration and labor laws.

I doubt it was McDermott's fault. I applied for OPT for my summer position sometime in March and got the authorization in 2-3 weeks. He must've waited until the very last minute before applying for it, which means it was more his fault than anyone else's. You don't need an exact start date to apply for OPT; you can specify the amount of time you want the authorization to run. You don't even need a job offer to apply for it.

@44 / 48 - Saying "I hope it's ______" is hardly insinuating that it is in fact that person.

Evidence of a grudge, sure. "Vicious lies"? Not a chance.

58-- no matter what it is--- no one wants their name mentioned in any way relating to firing or any sort of misconduct in a year like this year with law firms. You just dont want to stand out to any law firm in any bad light. And that's it So it IS vicious, because who knows what kind of word can travel, and what associates read.

Elie, @ 29. You're right that HLS or Harvard should have helped him out. I went through this with CLS, and the international students office was very good at handling these issues and making sure that students were on the ball.

41/44. You're totally wrong. It's against federal law to hire someone who doesn't have work authorization, if only for a summer. Law firms generally don't like to be involved in law breaking. The summer associate should watch out too. He'll have to disclose his time at MWE working without authorization (and explain it) on his bar application.

More pertinent, what country is this kid from?

The real scandal here is that McDermott even hired him in the first place. It's not like there is an shortage of qualified American lawyers out there right now.

The representation of foreign attorneys in Biglaw firms in the major metropolitan areas in our country is around 15-20%. Happens to be around the percentage that firms are laying off.

Let's save these jobs for our fellow citizens. Congress and the profession need to crack down on the numbers of foreign attorneys practicing (legally and illegally) in the United States.

Agree with 61. The partner was right to object, if the basis was the immigration status of the foreign associate. We need to see more of this looking out for other Americans at Biglaw firms.

What a TTT firm to comment that a summer associate was terminated. pretty low.

He could have gotten a J visa to work as a summer.

61- Canada. He went to undergrad in Canada, as well. This was his first job in the US, so I'm sure he's to blame at some level, though HLS / McDermott should have put some controls in place to make sure this didn't happen.

61, Great idea! While we're at it, let's ask Parliament to kick all the American lawyers out of London. We can petition the Diet to deport the USians. We should request that Hong Kong boot all the UnitedStatesers.

Lat/Elie--
Do you people just run any story that any schmuck sends to you? I cannot wait until you get sued.

who is the hiring partner in NY? Must be widely known. NYC is one of the worsTTT offices of a TTToTTTally TTT firm

Plz name partner. ty

62=61

I cannot believe this is a story. It happened weeks ago, it doesn't reflect poorly on him (maybe McDermott, but not necessarily...), and everyone I know from HLS knew about it since early June and, while we feel bad for him, never thought he would show up on ATL.

The fact that the firm confirmed that the SA was "terminated" gives one the sense that the firm is pissed off at said SA.

BTW, from what country does this SA hale?

Don’t you have to be a citizen to become admitted to practice in the United States? (Cf., http://calbar.ca.gov/calbar/pdfs/admissions/Admit-Summary-Requirements.pdf )

Elie, was he Canadian? The vast majority of foreign JDs are. Assuming he is Cdn, he is entirely to blame (and really, he is entirely to blame no matter where he's from):

1. He gets a new F-1 visa when he starts at HLS, with fresh OPT.
2. He gets 1 year of OPT, more than enough for 1L and 2L summer.
3. You can apply for OPT as early as you want. I applied in January long before I knew when my summer dates would be, and just put down a 3 month period of 20 May to 20 August. Think about it, this is his 2L summer! Don't tell me he wanted to "save" a week or two of OPT on the edges for post-grad.
4. If he's Canadian, as soon as he gets his JD, he can work under the NAFTA TN Permit and discard the rest of his OPT time.
5. From talking to other int'l JDs, there was a standard clause in summer associate offer letters to U.S. students that stated that the firm would NOT sponsor you for the summer. This makes sense anyway as it is 1,000,000x more complicated to switch visa status from an F-1 to a J-1 (J-1 is what the firm uses for Canadian summers from Canadian schools). As a summer, it is your responsibility to have your shit together and get your OPT, no one else's.
6. Harvard Int'l Dept almost certainly sent him several reminders regarding this process, like every school.

This guy was clearly an arrogant HLSer who thought he was above USCIS. To be anything but remorseful and apologetic to the Partners at the firm who wasted an offer on him is inexcusable.

Harvard still thinks that slavery should belegal and that chicks at Geneseo are slutty.

72- no.

73 is correct. As a Canadian F-1 student, I applied for CPT in mid March and started work the first week of May without any trouble. Not sure what's wrong with this guy.

Mystal, did they teach you to read good at Harvard? Also, your moobs are huge and probably will cause you to have back problems in the future.

Louis Ziccareli

ps - I am better looking than you.

We want a follow-up interview asking about CPT and OPT and why the SA thought he had to get a work visa.

72, nice troll. Now see the NY regs.

This is Canada's fault. Focus your blame there.

Also, most Canadian women are born with an insatiable appetite for cock, thus lending to the common perception of Canadian women as whores.

Blarf Blarf

A partner arguing with a summer associate shows an absolute lack of class by the partner.

Canada. What is this Canada you idiots speak of? Is that somewhere next to Mars?

I smell a rat.

I worked in NY last summer and required a visa. My firm. My application was only submitted for my J-1 visa in APRIL. All was taken care of by AIPT and there were no issues.

C'mon bozo - do you really think you are the only non-citizen to work in the USA? Pick a better excuse/lie before you try to con ATL into publishing a story about your side of the story.

You are supposed to be smart, you got into HLS, but DUDE - your lack of a better lie is SAD.

Out the stupid partner!

72, you're right! I see citizenship right there in the California bar regs. At least if you're going to troll people, make it a rick-roll.

HTH.

Comment removed by moderator.

83 - that rat smell must be your upper lip, but you're probably right with respect to every thing else you wrote. Reflects the bitter point of view of a smelly foreigner that couldn't get into HLS.

it's not that he can't work without a visa, it's that he can't be paid. he should have just offered to be an unpaid intern. the alternative seems much worse.

Harvard Law school should be blamed for allowing retarded Canadians into its program and letting their disgusting sense of Canadian entitlement sully the rest of the student body.

Fuck you Hahvard, and fuck you Canada!

This would never happen to Louis Ziccareli, boy gots skills.

I know the kid. He's a good kid, and not an idiot.

The firm is a shit firm, and he's lucky he's out... just sucks that their is no 3L market

Mystal is eating all of the commenters.

88 - false. The USCIS doesn't care if you were paid or not, they care if you are working without authorization.

They took ur jobs - everyone into the pile.

Can someone comment whether the partner was:

- income or capital?
- NYC based or other office?
- corporate or other?
- on the recruiting committee?

The firm never should have let him start in the first place if he didn't have the proper work authorization.

The excuse about the work visa is BS. I applied for CPT, while attending school on a foreign student visa, at the end of April. I was approved within 14 days. CPT is an internal approval unlike OPT which requires USCIS approval. Any foreign student office worth their pay would get a CPT done in under a month at the very, very latest. Summer associates don't come in under H1.

Canada, we don't like yer kind here. Go back to Saskatchewfland.

Is he a rising 2L or a rising 3L? If he's a rising 2L, he'll be going through Fall OCI and should be okay, if this was a visa problem.

He was let go because he called the black partner a ni@@er, and that was the end of that. At least that what I read on another blog, and we all know that blogs only print the truth.

The audacity of these Americans to think they have a right to regulate their own labor market!

MWE has immigration people that handle this stuff. How the heck did this happen?

93 - wrong. You do not need a work visa to volunteer. However, as soon as you get compensated you are "working" and in violation of your visa status. Hence the prohibition on getting paid.

- not 88

Terrence and Phillip hate MWE now. Its over.

BOOM!

done.

beaver pelt

there are no black equity partners in NYC

Comment removed by moderator.

The SA is such a bullshitter. You would use your CPT during the 1L and 2L summer, that's the ONLY option. The average processing time for getting a CPT is 5 business days. Coming up with such a far fetched excuse and even believing that someone will buy it is reason enough for this SA to get fired.

seems like getting a student work visa for the summer is NOT that difficult but maybe his paper work got misplaced somewhere. But it's his job to follow up!

Agree with 96 that the firm should not have let him start until he had the visa.

103 gets it.
88

96 is right. most (if not all) HR depts require proof of employment eligibility on orientation day, as you can't be put on the payroll without it. sounds like MWE HR screwed the pooch.

I have a student master card and work at Skadden.

Canadian Prime

ps - suck it, Houston

Why doesn't HLS offer CPT? Why make students' lives harder? (not that this student really has an excuse)

88 - nope, no stiff upper lip. Never applied to HLS. Went back to LS as a "mature" (old) student to follow a dream. Unlike many who have the privilege and money to go to HLS, I did not have the money to support that kind of tuition. The spoon in my mouth was stainless steel and not silver.

I was just calling a spade a spade.

83

Why would this even be a problem. US firms in London have U.S. associates work in London for a summer with no work Visa. Is it just that the English are more chill about everything than Americans.

What is it with the U.S. and their bloody regulations. Tossers.

99 - It looks bad whether it was a visa problem or a legitimate layoff. He will not be okay.

Also (115 here) it took 40 seconds to post my comment. No wonder there are so many multiple posts. This site clearly sucks.

As a non-citizen in this country who knows all the details about work visa/authorization, all I can say is that the HLS student was either lying or being super-ignorant. As a student on a student visa, the HLS student could have either applied for OPT (optional practical training, which requires the approval from immigration) or CPT (curriculum practical training, more preferred by international students, because it just needs the signature from his school). But in either case, not knowing the starting date shouldn't be a reason for him not to apply for the authorization in advance. And in any event, he could have asked for faster processing by faxing an offer letter to the immigration.

AND, in any event, he won't need (and can't get) a work visa. Because a work visa needs the sponsorship of an employer and once he is on work visa, he will lose his student visa. No firm will sponsor a summer associate a work visa; neither will the immigration approve this because the HLS student doesn't have the JD degree to qualify for a work visa.

As I said, either he was lying or just being super-stupid.

"As many of you know, non-citizens need to have a work visa in order to work -- and get paid -- in America."

This statement is completely false.

Yes we CAN!

I am not gay, I am French Canadian, you assholez!

This kid clearly has never listened to the Captain. Bay Street is awesome, enough said. Don't go to Harvard, go to UofT, it rocks and coming out of there you have much better job opportunities than anywhere in the United States (read "no insane and hugely massive layoffs").

ohh and for those American's who either failed intro to econ/become lawyers because they are scared of 'numbers'/watch Lou Dobbs please stop complaining about how "they took our jobs" and understand that closing down borders actually hinders economic growth. Given that ‘liberal’ Canadians know this, I would hope that free market Americans would as well.

-Bay Street is Awesome!

One more A-hole from the A-hole factory that is HLS.

Club Super Sex in Montreal. Best Canadian stripper I ever fisted worked there. I think she works at Wildman Harrold now.

He got into HLS, but had to settle on summering at McDermott, Will & Emery? This dude is a total tool.

I worked as a biglaw summer on a J-1, the firm's immigration lawyer (external) f*kd up the form and had I not caught their errors there would have been a shitstorm. NEVER assume biglaw knows what the f*k it is doing in the realm of immigration, generally they are clueless and their hired help are bottom draw cheapest contractor types, exactly what they bitch about when their clients do it to them.

Loved this quote: " He said the firm just isn't treating its people very well." Better you find out sooner than later. You sound like you have too much dignity for this racket, good for you.

I went to UVA. Now everybody assumes that I like wearing polo shirts and drinking Beam and Cokes. Am I cursed for life with this stigma?

Not Canadian

The comments about the foreign presence in the U.S. legal market raises an interesting issue.

Why is the government granting visas to foreign attorneys in this environment? If better regulating the labor market means one more American keeps his or her job and is thereby able to (A) better support his or her family, or (B) avoid default on student loans, should limiting work visas (and illegal immigration) be considered?

And is this an area where immigration policy and affirmative action concerns intersect? If the presence of foreign attorneys in Biglaw is even 10 percent (one commenter put it as high as 20 percent in some cities), that represents a significant displacement of American attorneys.

I am pounding an MWE cleaning lady in the ass right now and I don't think she is legal. This behavior, while repulsive to some, was taught to me by some of the greatest legal minds of this generation at HLS.

Only bottom of the barrel HLS would summer at McDermott

Where do the top of the barrel HLS summer?

126: is a non-citizen student at Harvard a "foreign attorney" or not? It's that quality of thinking that keeps firms recruiting at Canadian law schools. Since they don't pay us (Canadian graduates of Canadian law schools) any less than they pay "real" american grads of american law schools the only incentive for them to be at McGill, Toronto, etc. is the search for talent. But go ahead, ban Canadian recruiting, kill the H-1B program, NAFTA, etc. etc. and see where that takes you.

Commenters are calling for someone to "out" the partner, as if he did something wrong. What gives?

Poor Harvard foreigner. Go back to Russia you commie!

If the kid lied to ATL, they should out the student. Lying to Ellie cannot be tolerated.

top half of the barrel HLS could easily end up at McDermott

This recession is bringing out the worst in people. It's going to be a nasty summer. Good luck SA's!

Why does the United States need foreign attorneys when homegrown attorneys are having a hard enough time finding work?

Why does the United States need foreign attorneys when homegrown attorneys are having a hard enough time finding work?

elie: less blogging at true/slant, and more effort in your editor's job.

135 - If he was working here llegally, isn't it proper for the firm to object? It seems to be the firm was obliged to do so out of principle. Why is that an instance of "bringing out the worst in people"?

126/136 - perhaps there are not enough qualified US attorneys to fill each firm's hiring needs? Don't you think firms will hire the best and brightest, regardless of passport?

In my office and practice group, three of eleven associates are non-US citizens.

Canada is a lawless backwater. They live and die by the code of the beaver. Lesbians like Mystal probably love that.

Sounds like this guy tapped from strikes.

140 - The point is that a lot of U.S. citizens who are in law school or who are already in the market could probably do this work just fine. in addition, there are many competent U.S. citizen attorneys who are employed but in lesser paying firms, etc., who could also do this work.

Don't think for a minute there's really that much difference between the foreigner who is hired as a summer associate, a first year, or a junior and the American who would have been hired but for the country's failure to regulate the labor market. The difference is marginal at best, arbitrary at worst.

OK, 143. Close the borders. Let't talk again in 10 years and see how the US is doing. Moron.

"More details the HLS 2L's "heated conversation" with a MWE partner, after the jump. "

Who is More? St. Thomas More?

Lat or Mystal,

How about doing a story on the significant (growing?) presence of non-citizen attorneys in big law?

If the presence of foreigners in firms is truly 25 percent, see 140's comment, or even 10 percent, see other comments, that is an extraordinary representation. Such a trend would make for a good article, particularly in the context of the recession.

The United States would collapse without Canadian attorneys. You dolts can't look after yourselves.

i don't go to hls, but blaming the kid for being at mwe is straight up asinine.

in a normal year, mwe out of hls would be bad. but THIS year, given that hls had its oci more or less concurrently with the bottom dropping out of the us economy, given that anyone who had their OCI in august or september was accepting any offer they could, and given that many firms straight up froze their recruiting and some even had to rescind summer offers, it's pretty understandable that he didn't end up at the cream of the crop. the best of the best at hls probably still got their pick, but pretty much everyone else was about two months late to the party, and the job situation was really ugly.

but nah, none of that could possibly be it. continue to be jealous of the kid who got into harvard, like all the cool kids who are trying to justify their lack of ability to do the same.

146 - that's right, you just found the root of the biglaw crisis. Blame Canada for the layoffs! THEY TOOK ARR JOBS!

I have a job.

Locke Lord Houston Secure

I don't know what to make of the hysterical reaction of foreigners when Americans dare to suggest regulating the U.S. labor market. Just look at the some of the posts here.

At all events, the growing presence of non-citizen attorneys in big law is a story worth pursuing.

Comment removed by moderator.

As a former Canadian HLS student who summered in NY, let me add my two bits. This dude clearly screwed up. While HLS does not offer CPT, as some earlier have mentioned, OPT is pretty simple to get. You DO NOT need to have ANY job offer in order to apply for it. Harvard International Office tell you it can take possibly as long as 4 months in order for your application to be processed, so they recommend you apply as soon as you think you might want to work at a firm in the summer. All you need to do is state the dates during which you would like to have OPT status, pay like $300, fill out some basic documents and send in a photo of yourself and you'll get it. This kid clearly messed up. I had OPT two summers in a row, took me 6 weeks one year for it to be approved and about 9 weeks the other year. It seems implausible to me that if he had properly applied even as "late" as february he wouldn't get approval until July.

no worries, the american labour market is the most heavily regulated among all western nations. foreigners are not the enemy. the ones that actually do make it through all the hoops (not including the HLS summer, apparently) are truly the cream of the crop.

#73 and #153 are spot on. Can't get a "work visa" while a student (would have to drop out), and OPT/CPT do not take more than several weeks. You can file for it before you know the specifics of your employment.
The visa excuse is a load of bullshit.
Drinking and cursing is up for debate.
No question that he got his ass canned, though.

154 here - let me preempt cheap shots by specifying that "heavily regulated" refers to immigration restrictions. yes, it is easier to fire someone here than, say, the UK, but much more difficult to hire a non-citizen.

So he will have to report this to c&f?

Foreigners' representation in Biglaw and top law schools - 15%
----
Affirmative action representation - 5%
2008-09 layoffs - 10%

Hmmmm.....

Comment removed by moderator.

131, who the partner was will provide more insight into what really happened. There are some incredibly big jerks at the firm. If they were involved in this heated discussion, it would change how I view the entire situation. On the other hand, if it was someone known for being nice, then that will make a difference too.

Truly, Canada is a lawless backwater. They don't even send 72 year olds to jail for 150 years fer Christ's sake. Truly a lawless playground for Ponzi schemers.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Jail_vs_Prison

Suppose I am checking ATL and a new entry goes up with zero comments. If I quickly type in "First" (or better yet, have "First" already typed in Notepad where I can quickly cut and paste it into the comment block), while at the same time, another industrious associate as eagle-eyed as myself, notices the availability of the coveted 1 slot, and quickly posts First, such that there end up being posted "First" in slots 1 and 2, is the webmaster amenable to deciding who was actually first. Mmm. This presents an interesting dilemma. Each of us seemingly
has a legitimate claim to being first, and yet the first comment can have only one rightful owner. Quite the conundrum. Perhaps it would better if I just posted a variation of the word First, such as Firsty; First, bitches; I am First, again; First? First to say (subject of post) sucks; FirsTTT; etc.

Who argues with a partner in this climate?

He says it's your fault . . . Your line, sir: "I'll take care of it. Sorry."

I love 2L's who think that anyone cares about their opinion.

Comment removed by moderator.

7 - If you don't like the site, don't read it. In fact, you are part of the problem - if nobody read ATL, then it wouldn't matter what was written on it.

13 - This is a joint point (Lat and Elie).

I have to fart!

Comment removed by moderator.

I was recently laid off as a Senior Associate from the #4 law firm in Chicago. I have observed one thing that's a gamechanger: NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK. When finished, repeat. NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK.

165 to $190,000. Excellent urb dict reference.

#73 and #153 are right. The story does not add up.

I'm a foreign 2L working for a firm, so I know a bit about visas and work authorization. A student can't apply for a work visa for the summer. The way to do it is under CPT (depending on the school; not every school makes it possible) or OPT. CPT doesn't have a real approval process, the approval takes place at the university. The process takes about a week. So that can't be it. OPT can take up to several months, but you don't have to know your start date. You don't even have know who your employer will be. It suffices to indicate that you want to work over the summer and when you want to be able to start. (You are free to start later.)

The story doesn't add up.

It sounds like the firm was trying to find a way not to pay one less summer.

143 are you advocating affirmative action to benefit US citizens in BigLaw? Perhaps that is needed if foreign attorneys are better qualified, to even the playing field?

Joking aside, I think there are two reasons why foreign attorneys have a high representation in BigLaw: First, study ethics. In most countries outside the US, going to college is a rare privilege, and getting a graduate degree even more so. Thus, we take studying seriously, and don't treat three years of law school as a big frat party. Second, you will find that the majority of foreign attorneys are scientists who came here on H1-B visas, and went to law school after getting their green cards. Thus they will be disproportionately represented among the IP practitioners in BigLaw. The foreign attorneys instantly have a competitive advantage, since a majority of americans still believe in creationism and other myths, and therefore never bother to properly learn science.

We don't care about foreign 2ls working for a firm, we care about the campaign to get Kash's asslobster elected to the post of ATL mascot emeritus!!

114- You're wrong about visas in London. I hear that flies in China, however.

when is it ever appropriate, as a summer associate, to raise one's voice at a partner?

@176 - if they're hard of hearing, you're warning them of imminent danger, there's a firm outing involving sports or something involving shouting, the partner's attacking you and you're defending yourself, the partner is telling you about the grossly illegal and unethical behaviour he or she intends, notwithstanding the possible effect on your career it is necessary for your own sense of self to say something loudly, are all obvious examples that spring to mind.

It might well be better in some or most situations not to raise one's voice, but there are certainly occasions upon which it would be appropriate (or at least, not inappropriate!) to raise one's voice at a partner at the firm employing one as a summer whatzit (I have problems using the term "associate" for anyone at a law firm who is not admitted to the practice of law).

Is there a shortage of U.S. lawyers and law graduates such that it is necessary to issue work visas to foreign attorneys to practice law in the United States?

169 - mayer?

Any peon that raises their voice when addressing me is essentially delivering the kiss of death to their career and a brutal escort out of the building.

169 - network in order to retain one's job or to find a new one?

Kash has $75,000 in her briefcase and you idiots quibble over work visas. Unbelievable.

177, use the tried and true "summer clerk."

Partner Emeritus:

Please start your own blog. Your posts are the only things worth reading on ATL. I don't care if you're real.

When did summer clerks become summer associates anyway?

A while ago you did a survey on "blackline" vs. "redline." Consensus was that those old enough to have sat around a conference table with 4-5 old drafts, a black felt tip pen and a 15 inch ruler called it "blackline," while those who came of age when CompareRite and similar programs were available called it "redline."

How about a similar survey on a slow blog day?

I am a summer associate from the U.K., you must be the USA!

Why are non-citizens getting jobs at our American firms?

187, welcome to global competition.

PE = HLS SA

As an American who summered in London, I can confirm that 175 is right (and 114 wrong), you DEFINITELY need a visa to do a full-time summer placement in London. (114 may be thinking about the situation where someone comes over on a particular assignment connected to U.S. work; no visa necessary then, obviously).

Sounds typical of a HLS student with a false sense of entitlement. He had the burden of ensuring his work papers were in order. His failure yields his loss, and neither I nor anyone else will shed a tear for this idiot.

30 is right. this has very little to do with visa problems. any other year the firm would have figured out a way to keep this guy around - but now firms are looking for any way to get rid of people to avoid calling them layoffs, or in this case, cold or no offers. if you are a SA avoid getting buzzed at events, work hard and grab any non-transactional work you can.

Whatever level of interest this story had before has completely fizzled . . . in the interest of staying interested, I'll assume that McD's has a different story about his dismissal and that it is forthcoming.

So you're smart enough to get into Harvard and get a summer job at a good firm, but cannot handle getting your own visa in order? What does this say about his ability as a lawyer?

194,

What it says is that HLS students are unreliable and overrated.

It would be nice to hear what really happend.

The "job-stealing foreign" student thing is nothing new. Look at your undergraduate class and count the number of visiting students who won the think tank and investment bank jobs you applied for. Nothing new...

182 - I don't care how much Kashmir has in her briefcase or anywhere else, I'd love to show her a good life. I'm a plaintiff's lawyer with plenty of cash to spare and could keep her happy.

191,

Writing "he had a burden" outs you as a law student.

The worst law professor I ever had in law school was a HLS affirmative action student. Perhaps this kid has a chance in academia.

The worst law professor I ever had in law school was a HLS affirmative action student. Perhaps this kid has a chance in academia.

The worst law professor I ever had in law school was a HLS affirmative action student. Perhaps this kid has a chance in academia.

199: Mine too. Wonder if we went to the same school. Was the professor male or female?

it doesn't make sense that people are blaming the kid. firms are being assholes. firms have been assholes since the dawn of time, but it's been particularly bad in the last 12 months. my firm is doing it, my friends' firms are doing it. any excuse to lighten the payroll is a go at this point. give the kid a break. he got screwed by a crappy situation, a crappy firm, and a crappy hiring committee; regardless of the situation/timing of the visa, this wouldn't have happened if mwe were doing better fiscally. i wish him luck.

202: Female

Given the number of posts on this topic (and the Bar/Bri lecture last week), isn't it obvious that the only visitors to this website are law students?

Fuck you all.

83/113 --

The "money and privilege to go to HLS"? Do you mean, the "privilege" of having worked hard in undergrad and done well on the LSATs, coupled with the "money" lent to us by Uncle Sam and Citibank?

- HLS '06 grad (child of immigrant parents who didn't put her through law school)

@206: dangles?

Should have worked for free anyway...the opportunity and experience is actually worth more than the cash at this stage in your career. I almost had the same issue and that is what I had planned to do (although i am pretty happy I got paid in the end).

204: Yep. Female. What class does she teach?

177 -- so, in other words, 99.9999999% of the time it is not appropriate.

210: Torts

Foreigners with LLMs working in Biglaw = hacks

212

BU

210: BU

If someone viewing the page is enrolled in a BarBri course, they aren't still in law school, genius.

My parents bought me my GPA and LSAT score.

I bet they paid for your Kaplan course also. And your undergrad tuition. And maybe a stuffy private high school.

Lot of people who are bitter they didn't get into HLS and YLS here. Just as many if not more people running around at other T14's whose parents paid for a Kaplan course, and undergrad tuition, and a "stuffy private school". Some of you need to cast your nets a little wider...or at least take a good look in the mirror to see how messed up you must be that mommy and daddy couldn't buy your way into HLS over people who worked hard to get there.

I am one of those foreigners who took an “American” BigLaw job. Sorry about it guys. I will gladly give up my position if you can find me an “American” lawyer fluent in Portuguese, Spanish and French, with 6 years of PE in a civil law country… plus JD (from a civil law jurisdiction), LL.M. (from top 5 US Law School). If I’ve got this job is because there is a spot/need that a regular US lawyer cannot fit. Not to mention the fact that I will -or at least try to- generate business from companies of my own country doing business in the US (from which other “American” lawyers may benefit…).

The “they toooooook ‘ur jooooobs” thing is very funny. First time I heard it was from a bunch of rednecks in a South Park episode. I guess rednecks are everywhere, even in the legal profession.

HLS doesn't offer CPT. Neither does Stanford Law. NYU and Yale do offer CPT. I confirmed this earlier this year.
OPT can take more than a few weeks. Mine took over 2 months, and I applied in mid-February this year to USCIS in VT.
You couldn't have applied for H1B for this summer in Feb 2009 because the quota for H1B for someone with a Bachelor's degree for Fiscal Year 2009 (Oct 1 2008 - Sept 30 2009) ran out on April 1 2008, the first day you could apply for H1B for year 2009.
As for TN and J-1 option, I have no idea.

61, 126, 136 and 143

You are all pathetic cowards.

Don't be afraid of competition from afar - put up or shut up.

Biglaw firms, especially international firms, want the best and hire the best. Do you really think that law students with mediocre grades from mediocre US law schools can compete with the top 5% of Canadian, Australian or British applicants?

If so, then you're also morons.

Go tune on Lou Dobbs and retreat back into your protectionist cave, Messers Smoot and/or Hawley

73 knows what he/she is talking about for the most part. Elie does not. It is unlikely that this fired S.A. could have changed his visa because, as 221 correctly points out, there are no H-1B visas available for this fiscal year.

Also, as other commenters suggest, what this student needs is not a *visa*, but rather, a work permit. His visa status is almost certainly F-1. It is conceivable that is visa status is J-1, but even then the issue would be a work permit, not a visa.

As for Fake Justice McReynolds, if in fact there was a problem with this student's work permit and if indeed he commenced work as a Summer Associate, then I'm afraid that MWE probably was *not* following the law. If this student was not work authorized, then MWE let this student show up for work and start working without completing his Form I-9 (which employees must fill out and which requires employers to examine documents verifying an employee's authorization to work in the U.S.). I don't care how incompetent MWE's immigration attorneys are (whoever they are); there is no immigration attorney out there who will tell his clients' HR staffs that it's OK to do that.

Buy American.

Regards,
60606er

Buy American.

Regards,
5096er

dirty immigrant taking jobs from law students who are citizens.

I think someone got taken in by the writers of the Sandra Bullock box office megahit The Proposal!

Yet another screwed up MWE mistake. It isn't a shock that the firm can't find a merger partner to save face.

Lets see. How many layers of stupid management does MWE need? Recruiting? Office level? And the new COO of personnel matters stuck in our Siberia outpost in Silicon Valley. And once again, NOBODY caught this so basically for the 9 days or so that HLS was working here, it was ILLEGAL.

Did MWE tell the state bar? Did it report this just like it fails to take responsbility for its lawyers who are engaged in sanctionable behavior and illegal stock trading?

One day, my fellow 3rd year income partners (since we have no hope alive of getting promoted in this corrupt system with no repeat clients) will all be able to laugh about this in the unemployment line together.

Maybe we can hire Sarah Palin to come in and take the reins? I mean, we have 2 COOS already. Just add a third one.

Maybe she will be able to command some leadership position AND SOME CLIENTS.

There is no shortage of lawyers in the United States. Why does the country need to be handing out work visas to Canadian "lawyers"?

The guy tried to hit the partner. That is a firing offense.

Tried? Like, tried and missed? Or tried and got his ass handed to him?

Tried but did not land it because the partner is a gentleman quite a bit bigger in stature and easily moved away.