We Know What You Did Harvard Summer
(Or: A summer associate fired, and it’s not even July.)
Man down! We’re not even into July, and it seems that one summer associate has already gotten himself fired. (We’re fairly sure it was a him, but please correct us if we’re wrong.)
Generally SAs are terrified this summer, and therefore on their best behavior. But one fellow apparently didn’t get the memo. Interestingly enough, according to multiple sources, the fired summer is a student at the hallowed Harvard Law School.
Details are a little sketchy, so please treat this as an early draft. The story will surely evolve, as summer associate stories often do. E.g., Skadden Cristal Boy (original version here, alternate version here); Kirkland & Ellis’s Bruised Booze Cruiser (original version here, alternate version here); the Sapphic Smoochers (compare the different versions of the story by scrolling down through the Lindquist & Vennum archives).
Here’s the abridged version:
There are rumors floating around among HLS students that a summer got himself fired. As far as details, I had heard that he talked back to a partner.
A more detailed account, suggesting that alcohol was involved, after the jump.
Here’s the more extensive version, from a different tipster:
Apparently the HLS 2L was at a summer event, got trashed, and started swearing at a partner (dropping the f bomb, etc.). The summer was so drunk he couldn’t remember where he lived, so the partner had to look him up in the summer associate database and then put him into a cab — all while the SA was swearing like crazy at him.
As noted above, this is a preliminary account. Do you have a correction, clarification, or additional details? Might you be the fired summer associate, eager to set the record straight? If you have anything to add, please email us (ideally from a non-work computer or personal iPhone or Blackberry). You can also call us, at 212-334-1871 (ext. 3 for Elie, ext. 9 for Lat). Thanks.
P.S. Consistent with ATL policy regarding summer associate stories, please do not name this SA in the comments. Thanks.
Update: Please check here for our continuing coverage of this story.
(222) 
Comments
FIRSTTT
Must say all those Haaaahhhvaaad people are overraTTTed
THEY SHOULD ALL BE DESTROYED
pwn3d!
i don't know why you'd be surprised that HLS matriculated a socially-challenged student. in my many years at biglaw, i've worked with many of them, which generally means I do the work and they leave early. I wish firms would once and for all stand up to clients and hire the most qualified based on achievement and not just on where they go to school.
4: Amen.
In general, the rule of thumb is:
Harvard magna cum laude (top 10%) - supergeniuses (Supreme Court clerks, academics, etc.). Everybody should want them.
Harvard cum laude (top 40%) - pretty good lawyers and hard workers. Usually desirable hires.
Harvard no honors - generally lazy and entitled brats. Avoid at all costs.
Harvard bottom 25% - diversity and legacy hires.
As long as there's still, you know, sex and booze, I could do without the summer associate position.
6. The top 40 percent at Harvard is cum laude?!
Jeez. At Chicago honors was pretty limited. 85-90 percent of the class DID NOT graduate with honors. Yeesh. Grade deflation sucks.
Is it this way at the other top 10 law schools?
The ship be sinking...
for dat drunk bastard!
The partner deserved being called what he was called. The HLS SA was fired for telling the truth. Sounds like Bingham.
Getting drunk and swearing at a partner is enough to get a summer associate fired?
Wow, times really have changed.
Here's my guess
This clown is in the top 10%. From my experience druing my summer, the Harvard kids (with few exceptions) were the most socially awkward and most likely to not know how to handle their second appletini, and who would inevitably make an ass out of themselves with the slightest hint of a social situation. Well done mystery SA, for proving the rule.
8, I was wondering the same thing. 40% honors? What a joke.
8, 13, honors inflation at HLS was even worse before the mid-1990s. Makes one wonder why Obama refuses to release any of his school transcripts.
Harvard = Michael Jordan of law schools. 'Nuff said.
"Harvard = Michael Jordan of law schools. 'Nuff said. "
Here I thought it was Yale that was the Michael Jordan of law schools.
Jonas Blank is a summer associate again? How did that happen?
8, you should see Harvard undergrad...
HLS is a TTT, never forget
He wasn't "talking back." He was "cursing at".
What does TTT mean?
Ditto. Even 10% for magna is a stretch. 40% for cum laude is crazy.
@6 you are wrong.
As a cum laude graduate of HLS I can confirm that I'm absurdly lazy...
-Former BigLaw Assoc now In-house (best decision I ever made)
Did this happen at Dewey? Please tell me this happened at Dewey. That would he freakig awesome.
Does anyone at HLS speak English?
40% of the class deserves honors at a school were the average LSAT is 173+ and a ugrad GPA of 3.88. super jealous trolls!
Its summa, then magna, then cum laude. Not a lot of honors grads here, I guess.
Only in death do we have a name.
His name was Robert Paulsen.
His name was Robert Paulsen.
"Harvard = Michael Jordan of law schools."
Yes, Michael Jordan playing baseball. Great name. Sells tickets. Poor results.
MAYBE THIS WILL BE A WAKEUP CALL FOR EMPLOYERS TO START LOOKING ELSEWHERE THAN WITHIN HARVARD FOR THEIR BRILLIANT LEGAL MINDS.
@27: HLS graduates someone summa about every five years. They're so rare that they're irrelevant to the conversation.
Harvard Honors = Barely above median. WTF?
27, one person gets summa every couple of years, which makes it hard to provide generalizations so I left it out. Especially when one became a Mormon stay-at-home mom.
--6
"Man down!" I burst out laughing. Come home, Lat.
27 is right, you're all idiots.
26 is even more right. Stop crying bitches!
Honors should be limited to the the top twenty to twenty-five percent, regardless of the school. Nice to see Harvard treats its students like kindergartners.
26-
You deserve to go to HLS if you had a 173/3.88. You deserve to graduate from HLS with academic honors if you distinguish yourself while at HLS, not before.
At my school:
summa = top 1%
magna = top 5%
cum = top 20%
respectable...top 40% is a joke (sucks for the guy that is in the top 11%)
Does anyone know what firm this is?
I was fired as a summer associate for having sex with one of the partners. So worth it.
I can't go into detail about what really happened, but that picture at the top of the post definitely is NOT the guy.
27 is right, you're all idiots.
26 is even more right. Stop crying bitches!
Stop talking about honors designations at HLS you morons,and someone tell us something juicy about the actual incident!!!
-Richard Posner
It continues to stun me that HLS still has cachet. I guess people like the exclusive. Have you ever talked to someone who thinks s/he got a decent (forget good) education there.
21 ==> "TTT" means "Third-Tier Toilet", a common reference on this site which was originally a reference to lesser law schools and is now used as a derogatory reference to anything of extremely low quality/caliber/value.
This was at Latham.
Arthur Bach. Look it up.
There was a summer fired from Barnes & Thornburg in Indianapolis -- I know ATL likes to think the middle of the country doesn't matter, but the story is pretty funny from what I hear. The story is sketchy as to whether he was fired or let go but whatever the formality it was because (a) he wore flip flops to the office and refused to change and (b) went to a board meeting where the president of the board is a partner at the firm and proceeded to tell the board what they were doing wrong (it's a board that deals with sports venues in the city and it is in a dire financial position right now).
someone ATL reader had to be there... lets hear the details: was he drinking cosmos? did he shit himself in the cab on the way home?
Number 8 does not know anything about the Harvard grading system. Harvard does not even have rankings in the traditional sense. GPAs are never calculated until graduation and the curve is not published. Summa cum laude, magna cum laude or cum laude designations are sent to HLS graduates after graduation; but if you are not at least cum laude (top 30%) there is no way to tell where you rank in your class (you could have been in the top 40% or the bottom 25% of your class).
45, thank you for the explanation.
- 21
47, did he get caught between the moon and New York City? This is some great reporting. I overheard a lot more details on the train yesterday morning.
Moderator, could you please remove comment # 6.
It's shameful to think that diversit student will constitue the bottom 25%.
Aslo, can we do a survey and see how many of the posters here were rejected by HLS? I think the number is abvious, but let's have fun...
Moderator, could you please remove comment # 6.
It's shameful to think that diversity student will constitue the bottom 25%.
Aslo, can we do a survey and see how many of the posters here were rejected by HLS? I think the number is abvious, but let's have fun...
50 here, sorry, I meant number 6 does not know anything about the Harvard grading system
At my T14 school:
summa = very rare, faculty decides the person.
magna = top 10%
cum = top 1/3
Personally, I think this is a joke. In my undergrad (which I think is better), it was:
summa = top 1%
magna = top 5%
cum = top 10%
A purported "law blog" that writes an entire article about one summer associate? is this the national inquirer? why would you want to embarrass and expose a law student who lost his job? oh, I get it. you want to appeal to the lowest common denominator. this blog is trash. nothing more than a smut peddling gossip rag. nothing journalistic or newsworthy about this. you do realize the Supreme Court just ended their term with some interesting decisions right? and all you have is this garbage? you should be ashamed of yourself. like MJ said, take a look at the man in the mirror. you are not making the world a better place. in fact you are making it much much worse and scummy. I hope you are proud of yourself when you go to bed at night, proud that you wrote an article about a law student who got fired and plastered that person all over the internet. great job, assholes.
This absolutely infuriates me. I'm a 2L at a top-20 school, and I'd kill for a Summer, just about anywhere (won't get one). If I were this guy, i would not have even let a partner see me drinking. I'd be asking the partners for more work and constructive criticism. This self-entitled asshat blew his chance at something I'd give anything for.
50/55, I don't think you know anything about the Harvard grading system, since cum laude is top 40%, excluding the people with higher honors. Look it up.
Sorry about your top 39% GPA, bro.
57 = subject of the article
@ 57, ATL is a legal tabloid. This is their business, and this is why most people visit their site. I think Lat and Mystal would be quite happy to be compared to the National Inquirer.
57 - Note how the subtitle underneath this page's heading "Above the Law" reads "A Legal Tabloid."
please tell me this happened at a certain "international" mega firm that rhymes with "bones gay"
Harvard is not the Michael Jordan of law schools.
Harvard IS the Michael Jackson of law schools.
50/55, for your enlightenment. Note the key word "next," or you can do simple calculations and figure out how honors go to the top 40%.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/registrar/commencement/gpa-cutoffs.html
Some people at Harvard suck. Therefore, all people at Harvard are incompetent and their daddies bought them their 3.9s and their 175s. It's science.
Having cum laude = top 1/3 just devalues the whole honors system. If everyone gets honors, they mean nothing--except it means you truly are shit if you can't even manage to get into the top 1/3 of your school. Everyone knows that most of the bottom half at all law schools, let alone HLS, has no business being there. If you cant rise above the remaining imbiciles between median and top 1/3, you really are in a sad state.
At Michigan (at least in 2007), honors based on your grades. So 3.4+ was cum laude, 3.7+ was magna, 4.0+ was summa. In practice it meant around 30-40% graduated with honors, top 15% or so got magna and some other percentage (1% or less) was summa.
If he worked at Baker Hostetler in Orlando he would bet getting an offer. That firm enjoys summer associates who do things like vomit on partners shoes (this one made partner) or curse at partners when they are drunk.
Note that this is only tolerated if the summer associate is a male. Female summer associates get no-offered for getting drunk.
Hey 57, nice MJ reference.... along those lines, maybe you should just.... wait for it.... wait for it..... "beat it"... owwwww!!! (grabbing crotch)
at my t2, only top 10% receive honors at all--
summa: top 1% (maybe less)
magna: top 2-3%
cum: top 10% (i.e., 90-97% percentiles)
LOL bones gay
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Who really give a shit about what some snot-nosed law student did at a party. Who cares about HLS. Can you spell M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E?
Finally ATL is BACK!
26- I believe you meant, "...at a school *where* the average LSAT is 173+ and a ugrad GPA of 3.88."
I am truly super jealous that, although not a Harvard graduate, I know how to form a proper sentence.
Fuck, I shoulda gone to Harvard. Top third at Chicago got me jackshit for my resume.
And, yes, I could have gone to Harvard.
Harvard is the Elon of Massachusetts.
26- I believe you meant, "...at a school *where* the average LSAT is 173+ and a ugrad GPA of 3.88."
I am truly super jealous that, although not a Harvard graduate, I know how to form a proper sentence.
Harvard's honors system is completely broken. It stigmatizes people who do not get honors and significantly dilutes the achievements of the people who were in the top quarter but not the top 10%. It would be much better for nearly everyone involved if it were: Top 1% summa, next 9% magna, next 15% cum.
Anyway, back to the subject matter of the post. It is a sad sign of the times that people aren't piping up and giving us some details.
Harvard is the UCLA of the East Coast
SMU is the Harvard of Oklahoma.
This would never happen at SkaddenDC.
at my top 10 school:
top 10% - coif
bottom 90% - nothing
Having worked with Harvard top 40% types I can confirm that they are hugely over-related. They aren't just lazy. Many of them aren't all that bright. I consistently see much better work from top 10% at flagship state schools (i.e. Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, etc.). It really goes to show that the qualities that get you into a top law school (i.e. being obsessed with grades by the time you turn 18, taking an expensive LSAT prep course, having connections, etc.) don't necessarily translate to being a good lawyer.
87 = TTT
lol at 57 "this blog is trash. nothing more than a smut peddling gossip rag"
That's why it's fun to read !
Harvard is the freckled red haired step child of Boston University.
The Harvard summers at my firm didn't even go to events. Now I know why.
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This is nothing. How about a report on the summer who brought a bottle of tanqueray to a firm picnic and passed out on a partner's boat.
#48, I need moar details!!
Barnes & Thornburg let a summer associate sit in on a CIB meeting?! Or he went of his own volition and stupidly opened his mouth? Most importantly - which school was he from?
88, I often find them to be "over-related" as well (whatever "over-related" means). Look, they didn't just buy their grades and scores. While this says nothing about their social skills, they must have been smart to get into to Harvard. If they are so stupid, then it really sucks for you that you weren't able to compete with them at all in admissions. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will all be great lawyers (which takes more than just smarts). In fact, I don't think you even need to be that smart to be a good lawyer. Anybody who has spent much time in Biglaw knows that endurance is more important than smarts -- some Harvard lawyers have it and some don't. Employers like Harvard students because at least they are guaranteed to get a relatively smart employee -- but that's all that is guaranteed -- doesn't mean they are in it for the long haul.
41,
Of course that's not the summer. I think Lat just has a thing for blonde guys. Recall the clip art they use for contract attorneys (that picture with attractive blonde guy watched by creepy man in background).
Barnes and Noble is a lawfirm? Are they hiring?
14: Barack graduated magna
@55, SMU is in Texas, dumbass. Harvard is the Vanderbilt of the North.
Harvard is merely a brand name. But this douche's actions were his own, and shouldn't be tied back to Harvard. I didn't attend law school there, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is no "ass-baggery" course they make you go take.
And I believe it's called "Sissy field."
Harvard is merely a brand name. But this douche's actions were his own, and shouldn't be tied back to Harvard. I didn't attend law school there, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is no "ass-baggery" course they make you go take.
And I believe it's called "Sissy field."
No graduation honors at CLS. Except for Top 1 (person not percent).
@55, SMU is in Texas, dumbass. Harvard is the Vanderbilt of the North.
88 - You obviously didn't get into Harvard. That's why you think you have to be crazy about your grades and rich enough to afford lsat prep classes to get in. I mean, these people graduating with 4.0's from undergrad and getting 175 on the lsat can't be that much smarter than you, can they? Your little brain just couldn't handle that.
Btw, I go to HLS. I know the guy who got fired very well, and I know exactly what happened. The poor excuse for a story in this article has it completely wrong.
@55, SMU is in Texas, dumbass. Harvard is the Vanderbilt of the North.
@55, SMU is in Texas, dumbass. Harvard is the Vanderbilt of the North.
he'll have a beautiful career at latham. well, before they fire him after 4 months of work.
@55, SMU is in Texas, dumbass. Harvard is the Vanderbilt of the North.
Obamagna
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=516664
14, thx for playing, douche
@105: I think I know him too, but haven't heard details. Care to clarify?
One riot, one Ranger.
@ 105, then why don't you use those Harvard lawyering skills and inform us as to what really happend.
I had a fantastic education at HLS. All of my professors were engaging and mostly all were quite brilliant. Some students were total a-holes, some were not. Some were lazy, some worked hard. But everyone was very bright. Everyone saying uneducated things about HLS clearly did not go there, and probably attended a school far below HLS's calibre. Additionally, as for HLS's grading. graduating with any honors generally means you averaged almost all A-'s (or better). That remains a feat and requires hard work even when your school loves it some grade inflation. Doing nothing = B average.
That aside, this kid going to HLS has nothing to do his/her stupid antics. 22 year old morons attend lots of law schools. It has to do with immaturity and the inability to hold your liquor.
114- no one cares. 105- spill the beans!
The amount of jealousy-induced rage directed at Harvard on this blog is really embarassing. Do you people really feel that insignificant because you didn't get into a school that opened up a lot of doors for people who aren't you. Get over yourselves-- if you were smart enough you could have gotten in. Period.
@111: 105 here, I can't really clarify too much without making the person's identity obvious. Suffice to say he wasn't wasted and didn't curse at a partner.
117-- sorry but I call bullshit- on you lest you'd like to a least explain a little further- if he weren't wasted or cursing at a partner--- then what the hell could he have done to get fired. Different economic climate or not, summer associateships/offers are still yours to lose, and you have to do something to lose it-- and it has to be pretty f'ing serious.
105 here.
@116: thank you
@115: I can't explain exactly what happened without making the guy's identity obvious. Suffice to say he wasn't drunk and didn't curse anyone out. What actually happened is kinda boring.
@111 / 117 - How do you know its even the same person then? Those are the only details in the story.
117-- sorry but I call bullshit- on you lest you'd like to a least explain a little further- if he weren't wasted or cursing at a partner--- then what the hell could he have done to get fired. Different economic climate or not, summer associateships/offers are still yours to lose, and you have to do something to lose it-- and it has to be pretty f'ing serious.
117: that doesn't suffice!
116 (and other HLS grads posting on here): why are you so sensitive to the Harvard bashing? If you're still so insecure after graduating from HLS that you must respond to flamers on ATL, you will never have the confidence to be happy. I feel sorry for you!
TTT grad
@120: How do I know? How many HLS summers do you think have been fired?
Why does sticking up for your education/school = insecurity? I'd do the same for my undergrad which I loved and would call anyone crazy for bashing it! (i.e. not even a little insecure about my education)
Way back when, I didn't get into Harvard, either. At first I cried, then I sunk into a deep depression. Wandered around the timber camps and iron-ore mines of northern Minnesota for a few months; took off to work in a cannery off the Oregon coast; got caught by the draft board and ended up spending eight months in Nam with 101 AB in I Corps, boo-coo dinky-dow. Got home, cleaned myself, and started crying all over again. I knew then what I know now: if you can't make it into HLS, you're not going to make it at all.
116 -- Nobody questions that it takes a lot to get into Harvard, I am duly impressed with anyone who gets in, clearly they showed a complete focus and lack of social life to get a 4.0 in undergrad as well as a toolish obsession with the LSAT to get a 175. Its the horrid sense of entitlement and usual lack of legal ability that annoys us all....
#44: harvard has no cachet. but it does have cache. maybe if u knew the difference, u could have been admitted.
btw, this took forever to break, it's pretty old news
124-
I don't think "sticking up" for your school is the same as insisting that everyone like and respect your school because (you think) it's the best. There are several stereotypes associated w/ my undergrad school, but I don't troll blogs insisting that those repeating the stereotypes are just jealous of my degree. I just laugh and move on.
- 122
110, what percentage of people got magna back then? About the top 76% of HLS got regular cum laude back then. If he had such good grades, why does he not release his transcript, when Bush and Kerry have released their C-filled ones from Yale? Why did you entirely miss my point?
Thanks for playing, douche.
-- 14
Wow 126, I am really sorry for you that you think you need to have no social life to get a 4.0 in undegrad and a 175 on the LSAT--- because then you are a complete idiot. I got a 4.0 in undergrad, a 178 on the LSAT, and hate to break it to you, went out partying with my friends at least 3 nights a week all throughout undergrad AND HLS.
You are clearly a moron.
hahahahahha, ROFLMAO at anyone who thinks you need to have no social life to do well in school.... feel really sorry for you that you have no ability to have fun AND do well.
@126: that would be a negative. i got wasted 3-4 days a week at a state school and spent about 2 weeks studying for the lsat. i'm now at hls. some people are just smarter than you.
who cares about Harvard's system. bunch of winers who can't accept that you are where you are, now deal. and Harvard has the rep it has and it's always going to be special to have gone there, so deal. but what irritates the shit out of me is the statement by 6 that diversity "hires" (i'm sure you meant students jackass) encompass the bottom of the class. and by diversity, I know you mean black. look fucker, and all you other people who want to question Obama's intellect because you don't know what magna meant at Harvard pre-90s or whatever the hell some idiot above said, just because we have darker skin and curlier hair does not make us stupid and you inherently smarter. and there are, I am sure, plenty of other "diversity" students out there who are kicking ass when taken with how skewed our education system is toward caucasians and their generally better funded schools. fuck you 6 (and anyone who agrees with that assessment), you racist pig.
haha, 131-133 = same guy over and over convincing himself that he loves to PARTY
131 comments, and no further details? Fuck, we don't even know what firm it is? C'mon summer and associates -- don't be such fucking sissies.
134 = Justice Scalia
@134: someone has a chip on their shoulder. you need to realize that white people get pissed off at being passed over for positions they're more than qualified for just because a lower qualified minority applicant is available. and don't give me that "white people have better schools" b.s., blacks don't have a monopoly on shitty schools.
This blog is such a waste.
For anyone new, let me break it down for you.
Everyone on this blog, including the moderators hate two things more than life:
1. Cravath Swaine & Moore
2. Harvard
The rage and jealousy thrown at those institutions are an embarassment, and make all of you look pathetic.
Say whatever you want about them, but both Harvard and Cravath are the institutions that they are for a reason and your stupid whining is never going to change that.
That said, to everyone who vehemently defends HLS and CSM--- stop wasting your time. You've made it. You know it. You don't need to defend yourself against jealous punks-- it just makes you sound like the douches they want you to sound like
NOW: HOW ABOUT COMMENTS RELATED TO THE ACTUAL POST--WHO IS THE SUMMER???
God do I want to trash 127... but it seems to easy, smells like bait.
actually no 135-- we're not the same. I didnt go to a state undergrad...
it's just 3 separate people who pity you for being less intelligent
24 - no, it was not Dewey.
134, 6 used "hires" in the correct fashion, since you may have noticed how the other categories talked about hiring as well. When HLS lowers its standards for certain students, those students will tend to cluster at the bottom (it's no coincidence that Harvard Law Review has to resort to using affirmative action). Firms hire those people for the same qualities that HLS admitted them for, which is legacy or diversity. Note that this also happens to legacy admits, which you curiously glossed over. I'm sure legacy admits, just like diversity admits, like to pretend that they're just as smart as the regular admits.
To put it in simple words:
Garbage In, Garbage out.
It sure as hell wasn't at Cravath
139 -- Uh.. Elie went to HLS. And he loved it and doesn't stop talking about how awesome it is.
"white people get pissed off at being passed over for positions they're more than qualified for just because a lower qualified minority applicant is available"
Newsflash jackass, that doesn't mean the minority will not do a fine job. And, in fact, because we're aware that we're watched more and have to be absolutely perfect all the time to get over the rebuttable presumption of incompetence because we won't get the "jack's just having a bad day" slack, we generally try harder once we get the opportunity. just admit your racism to yourself and accept that you and your friends who think that way are racist. fucking over-competitive narcissist.
All you Neanderthals posting about your school's selectivity in granting awards miss the point entirely.
Your TTT has to limit awards to 10% because it is TTT. It needs a way to distinguish the mouth-breathers from the bed-wetters so that they can get jobs cleaning toilets instead of my asshole.
145 I disagree. Elie likes to say that he went to Harvard because it makes him look good, all the while trying has damnedest to post everything bad about it so as to distance himself from it since he no longer is there.
i.e. when he went there it was amazing because his fat ass is, but not anymore
143, you're garbage. and you're a racist. so proud of your comments, I suggest you forward your comments to everyone you know. jackass.
29--amazing analogy, and oh so true.
oh, and 143, I know precisely how to interpret what 6 said, and as far as I am concerned, it was not accurate to say "hires" when referring to the content of the Harvard "student" body. Jackass.
more like Harvard is the Cravath of law schools, or vice versa.
Number 2 on a silly ranking that's essentially meaningless, when everyone knows it's the best, and far better than it's smaller (thus obviously more selective by operation of being smaller) rival.
Vanderbilt is the Space Camp of Tennessee.
151, he was talking about what kind of hires they would end up being. See the line about the cum laude graduates for the exact same word. I'm guessing literacy isn't your strong suit.
Yes yes, I know, I'm a racist.
@ 146 and 149: neither of you has offered a valid reason to support affirmative action. all you do is call those who disagree with you racist, the standard leftist battle cry. 146, you seem to acknowledge the fact that minority applicants are being chosen over more highly qualified non-minorities - can you please explain how it's racist to see something wrong there? Because all I see is racism against whites (it's not "reverse-racism," it's just plain old racism).
111: So who is ready to out this firm? Not like it matters to the kid, he's already screwed for 3L OCI. We're only prolonging the inevitable...
Firm = Curtis M something or other
155, what does "qualified" mean? What does "most qualified" mean? better school? better grades? at the end of the day, work must be done, and it must be done competently and correctly. we are not talking about who composed the best concerto here, or who wrote the most beautiful prose in that brief to Judge so and so. this is law, and it's pretty straightforward. It's just important to take care with the details and, above all, make sure the work is right. If you think minority candidates can't do that, then yes, you are a fucking racist, because your belief stems from something that you don't like about "those" people. So you build it up in your head that they're "taking" something from you. if a minority candidate can do the job and do it competently (and I submit that we all can), they are just "as qualified" as anyone else. Jackass.
firm was already outed as BONES GAY!
154, yup yer rahght...............................jackass
@158: So, by your logic no employer should ever root through piles of resumes to find the most qualified applicant? Yes, I do believe that the person with better grades at a better school is more highly qualified, as is the person who scores better on standardized exams that establish competency in certain fields. You can't seriously argue that isn't true, otherwise you're just making excuses. Just because someone can do the job "competently" doesn't make them as qualified as someone else, that's actually a pretty stupid conclusion to draw. If I do the job excellently, and someone else does it competently, I'm more qualified.
And yes, if I'm more qualified for a job/position than the person who's hired/accepted based on their race, they stole it from me.
134, while there are exceptions to the rule, it's pretty much common knowledge that URMs occupy the bottom 1/3 of all elite law schools. There have been several studies that verify this information, including one from two professors at Berkley, of all places. That's not racist to admit. And, it's a real problem that should be discussed seriously. The labeling (calling people who state this fact a "racist") stifles conversation about this problematic topic.
oh my God enough with the who is racist babble.. ENOUGHHHH you're both idiots for ever thinking you are going to make a point the other cares about
the post is about a summer who got FIRED thats it
I think 134 et. al's "jackass" sign off is an indication he's schtick
Will you all SHUT UP ABOUT HARVARD AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION! comments on the story please!!!!
163 - you should not be a lawyer if (i) you can't stand to read about arguments over contemporary issues, and (ii) can't immediately realize that one is objectively illogical.
166 I can stand to read about this, and I agree with you
BUT-- it's called wrong place-- wrong time.
YOU should not be a lawyer if you can't get over your issue for 2 seconds for some brief respite and talk about something trashy for 2 seconds.
161, I am proud of you. see, it's not so hard to admit the truth is it? Excellence is important; no question. But experience (and I have a bit of it) has taught me that, at the end of the day, competence is most important. Competent does not mean mediocre. It means having done a solid job--the work is correct and clean. Just because your prose may be more beautiful than mine, doesn't mean that the client (or the partner for that matter) will give two shits when we both get the same result. And that's just a plain fact.
164, i'm a girl and you're a jackass too!!! Jackass.
@168: 161 here. of course i spoke the truth. affirmative action is a policy that perpetuates racism against whites. duh.
Comment removed by moderator.
SHUT UP AND GET BACK TO THE SUMMER ASSOCIATE!!!!
Over 80% of blacks in law school finish in the bottom 30% of their graduating class. It's just a fact, so read into it what you want.
Any truth to the rumor that the SA was drinking White Zinfindel all night?
162. Thank you for at least hearing the merits in what I am trying to say. And I am not disputing the statistics. What I am frustrated by is the use of a vernacular that suggests that physiological differences create that result. And you are correct; it is a serious problem that starts, in my view, with the way that the states choose to fund education. It is just so annoying to hear over-educated (and yes, I do think that is possible) caucasian people talk about how minorities--and we all know it's usually blacks that are being referred to--are not qualified and are taking their jobs when the minority who gets the job is typically at least competent and when typically the caucasian person has had the benefit of a much much better education. It's like a lot of you don't get how lucky you were to have had the parents you had, have had the opportunity to go to the preparatory schools many of you did, and the many other advantages that got you to Harvard, or Yale, or where ever. I KNOW that there are many many exceptions to what I am saying, but I am sick of the rampant idea that to be black in this profession is to be a fucking idiot. That is simply not correct.
161 - You dumb fk. It means you are BOTH qualified. It is black and white (no pun intended). You are either qualified or you are not qualified. You must be some ditsy liberal that voted for Barack.
171-- no she is 100% NOT the SA who is fired. whoever posted that is just a sexist fool who probably couldnt get a date with her
oh and p.s. ---- the moderatory should be removing any post with names on this shit
@176: you're either qualified or not, and that's it? you must be one of those "competent" people we were discussing earlier. doing better work than someone else makes you more qualified to do said work. if you seriously disagree with that, i hope your firm never places you in a hiring position or it isn't going to last very long.
btw, i'm a libertarian. the ditsy liberal that voted for barack would almost certainly be arguing the exact opposite of what i'm saying.
please remove 171. and no, she didn't get fired.
87 = UVA
Someone got drunk, cursed a superior and got fired? Happens every day!
179 - You are yet another one that doesn't comprehend the definition of qualified. If I had more time to waste, I'd take the time to explain it to you, but I've got better things to do.
whoever said there was no meaningful difference between competence and excellence needs their head examined
Jeebus, what gives with all of the stupid comments about Harvard honors and affirmative action? All of you should STFU. And no one seems to have offered any new information about the SA. I guess all of the associates who would have done so must have been fired. Maybe that means the firm is Latham?
157 - The firm was not Curtis.
Another interesting tidbit for all you gossip lovers out there: I hear this SA wasn't the only one fired from his firm. I know this SA very well and know what happened to him first hand, but from what I've heard (from this SA and from people at my firm with connections) there were three people fired in total (for different reasons).
I know the firm and am unsurprised. It isn't a top firm, never was, never will be, and fired a bunch of people in the past so not shocking that it would fire a summer even for a stupid reason
I know there's no real point but it makes me feel better:
re: the racism bit...
Look, it's not about race so much as it is about economics. Those students, white, black, brown, what have you, who are financially able to attend elite private schools from primary school on, are more likely to be better prepared for the SATs so they get better scores. In turn, they get into better colleges. In turn, they are more prepared for the LSAT and can go out partying all the time and still score a 173 - it isn't about smarts, it's about being exposed to and learning how to take standardized "objective" exams from the time you're five years old.
Those people, white, black, brown, what have you, who, because of poor financial backgrounds, live in low income neighborhoods in turn attend lower-funded schools, in turn are not prepared for standardized tests (if they are even introduced to the idea of college with enough time to take the damn SATs as opposed to, say, being told they only have a future in the military). In turn, most (although not all) of those students either don't get into college or just don't get the opportunity to go to college. There is a small number of students who, thanks to policies that acknowledge this, accept students despite low SATs. Some of those students succeed by seeking out mentors, some do not. It's difficult to succeed without a support system if you haven't been groomed to attend college all of your life.
At the end of the day, it is incorrect to make the blanket assumption that all students of color end up in the bottom of an elite law school class. That is simply not true. It is also incorrect to make the blanket assumption that there are no highly qualified people of color and that any person of color who gets into an elite school or becomes a partner in a top firm must have been the part of affirmative action policies.
How about we focus on what is important:
WHAT DID THIS GUY DO TO GET FIRED?!?!?!
maybe he was an idiot who only commented off topic on above the law. if i were the hiring partner at a firm id fire such a douchebag
@189: bogus argument. my father was in the military until after i graduated high school. i went to d.o.d. schools my entire childhood that were underfunded and understaffed and had to deal with some pretty appalling learning environments. i never had any special prep courses or help of any kind. guess what? i'm smart so i did well on the SAT and the LSAT. that's all it took, intelligence. no prep courses, no money from daddy, no legacy. don't give me this "underprivileged people deserve a chance" bs.
191. Well, you're just as exceptional as the 25-30 percent of black law students who graduate in the top portion of their class. I guess he's just assuming something about you too, huh. Funny how logic turns things around.
Nice work Lat!!! Great post.
great post if he revealed at least the law firm. which everybody knows by now
57, you don't belong here.
If you don't like juicy law firm gossip, then stick to more staid (read: boring) sites, like the WSJ Law Blog, Am Law Daily, etc.
@192: you need to reread 189 and 191, you just made yourself look retarded
@ 192 again: btw, 25-30% of black law students don't graduate in the top portion of their class. and, even if we were to assume that you were correct, if we read "top portion" to mean top 50%, your stats still show a problem (only 25% are in the top 50%).
189, please show me someone in this thread who made "the blanket assumption that all students of color end up in the bottom of an elite law school class" or "that there are no highly qualified people of color."
It's at McDermott Will & Emory.
Comment removed by moderator.
Oh, so this is the blog for people who didn't get into HLS? Loosers......
hmm, 199/200 seems to be onto something
80% of all law students don't graduate in the top 20% of their class.
someone post the relevant info on xoxohth.com
175 - "but I am sick of the rampant idea that to be black in this profession is to be a fucking idiot"
It's not a rampant idea except here on this ridiculous message board where, not incidently, all the autoadmit xoxo tools now hang out.
194 / 205 - More info is appearing very shortly.....
-- ATL Tipster
206 -- thanks!
205 - Who goes there (AutoAdmit) any more?
They should just shut that dump down.
@206: as someone who actually knows what happened, i'm calling bullshit on you. very few people are in the loop on this one.
208 - need info, ATL is not cooperating
@ 198 - see 143, 155, 162
- not 189 but I can see where 189 got that from those posts
Not 192, but a logic addict.
If 191 got to where he is b/c of hard work, merit, etc., he/she is an exception to the general rule of wealthy white students getting benefiting from either the historical passed down wealth that was a result of historical racists policies like housing covenants, employment discrimination, etc.
If a black student ended up in the top portion of her class, she would be the "exception" to the general rule that black students fall in the bottom 95 percent of their law school classes.
Both suffer from inferences based upon assumptions due to their race. 191 suffers from the assumption he/she got help due to the vestiges of racism. The hypo black student suffered from assumptions on their academic achievement due to the perception of other black students' academic performance.
Not that hard to see. Y'all are dumb.
Logic FTW!
139-
Yeah, if you work at Cravath, you've "made it." The only problem is, you'll have to wait until 2011 to "make it." oops!
CSM is like GM -- they used to be the bomb but no longer. Substitute WLRK, Munger, WConnolly etc -- those folks have "made it" and don't have to wait till 2011 to do so!
95 -- 48 here and he went to IU-Indy.
Is there a shortage of qualified U.S. lawyers and law graduates such that it is necessary to continue to grant visas to foreigners to come and practice law in the United States?
By some estimates, foreign representation in big law and top law schools is 10-20%.
191. Well, you're just as exceptional as the 25-30 percent of black law students who graduate in the top portion of their class. I guess he's just assuming something about you too, huh. Funny how logic turns things around.
Some of these comments are just unreal and sickening. If we take some of the blatant racists' (who are probably too cowardly to make these comments in public) comments on this blog seriously, we are to believe that the bottom of top tier schools' classes consist of blacks, including Harvard Law and Yale Law.
So, those of you of the fairer persuasion who are bitter that you did not get into YLS or HLS, are basically angry that the 7 or 8% of blacks that make up one of these classes took spots that rightfully belonged to you? REALLY?!?
If you were that smart and that qualified to get into these schools, you would have gotten in with the other 92 or 93%. The fact that you are angry that 7% got in ahead of you is ridiculous. What? You are angry that you werent admitted to YLS or HLS to sit at the bottom of the class?
Be bitter about not getting into HLS or YLS or wherever. Have a chip on your shoulder. That's all fine. But don't blame it on the 7 or 8% black population. And let's try to have the intellectuals who also know about and read this blog show some class and some level of decency and dare I say intelligence, by accepting that you did not get in for a reason, and that reason wasn't because you were white and someone who got in was black. Take responsibility for the fact that you didn't have what it took to get in....period.
But if you have to make yourself feel better by saying you didn't get in because a less qualified black took your spot, you are only creating excuses for the fact that you weren't in the top 93% of those admitted. (because of course we blacks are the idiots at our respective law schools).
And if you did get into HLS or YLS, and actually chose not to go for whatever reason, I'd hope you would be secure enough not to give any merit to such tasteless, ignorant, and plain wrong statements by a few disgraceful individuals.
Some of these comments are just unreal and sickening. If we take some of the blatant racists' (who are probably too cowardly to make these comments in public) comments on this blog seriously, we are to believe that the bottom of top tier schools' classes consist of blacks, including Harvard Law and Yale Law.
So, those of you of the fairer persuasion who are bitter that you did not get into YLS or HLS, are basically angry that the 7 or 8% of blacks that make up one of these classes took spots that rightfully belonged to you? REALLY?!?
If you were that smart and that qualified to get into these schools, you would have gotten in with the other 92 or 93%. The fact that you are angry that 7% got in ahead of you is ridiculous. What? You are angry that you werent admitted to YLS or HLS to sit at the bottom of the class?
Be bitter about not getting into HLS or YLS or wherever. Have a chip on your shoulder. That's all fine. But don't blame it on the 7 or 8% black population. And let's try to have the intellectuals who also know about and read this blog show some class and some level of decency and dare I say intelligence, by accepting that you did not get in for a reason, and that reason wasn't because you were white and someone who got in was black. Take responsibility for the fact that you didn't have what it took to get in....period.
But if you have to make yourself feel better by saying you didn't get in because a less qualified black took your spot, you are only creating excuses for the fact that you weren't in the top 93% of those admitted. (because of course we blacks are the idiots at our respective law schools).
And if you did get into HLS or YLS, and actually chose not to go for whatever reason, I'd hope you would be secure enough not to give any merit to such tasteless, ignorant, and plain wrong statements by a few disgraceful individuals.
Some of these comments are just unreal and sickening. If we take some of the blatant racists' (who are probably too cowardly to make these comments in public) comments on this blog seriously, we are to believe that the bottom of top tier schools' classes consist of blacks, including Harvard Law and Yale Law.
So, those of you of the fairer persuasion who are bitter that you did not get into YLS or HLS, are basically angry that the 7 or 8% of blacks that make up one of these classes took spots that rightfully belonged to you? REALLY?!?
If you were that smart and that qualified to get into these schools, you would have gotten in with the other 92 or 93%. The fact that you are angry that 7% got in ahead of you is ridiculous. What? You are angry that you werent admitted to YLS or HLS to sit at the bottom of the class?
Be bitter about not getting into HLS or YLS or wherever. Have a chip on your shoulder. That's all fine. But don't blame it on the 7 or 8% black population. And let's try to have the intellectuals who also know about and read this blog show some class and some level of decency and dare I say intelligence, by accepting that you did not get in for a reason, and that reason wasn't because you were white and someone who got in was black. Take responsibility for the fact that you didn't have what it took to get in....period.
But if you have to make yourself feel better by saying you didn't get in because a less qualified black took your spot, you are only creating excuses for the fact that you weren't in the top 93% of those admitted. (because of course we blacks are the idiots at our respective law schools).
And if you did get into HLS or YLS, and actually chose not to go for whatever reason, I'd hope you would be secure enough not to give any merit to such tasteless, ignorant, and plain wrong statements by a few disgraceful individuals.
127:
Actually, 44 is completely right about cachet (the spelling that is; I leave to others whether Harvard has it or not). You are wrong about cache, unless you are referring to Harvard's cache of money, and I suspect you are not. As for me, I didn't even have to finish high school to know which was which.
Before you rant more about grade/honors inflation...remember that although HLS may have a higher % of cum laude grads than most law schools:
HLS has had no summas for the past 7 years. Literally none.
food for thought.
221, i thought there was one summa in each of 2006 and 2007.
anyway, as a non-honors HLS grad i will admit am I slightly lazy, but don't call me dumb!