Howrey First Years to $100K
Welcome to the future. Like Drinker Biddle did in May, Howrey is changing the nature of the first and second year associate experience. The firm is moving to more of an apprenticeship model. New Howrey associates will receive an emphasis on training and take a significant reduction in salary.
The memo from Howrey explains some of the top-line goals of the new program — called the “Tier 1 Associate Program.”
Participants in Howrey’s Tier 1 Program will spend only one-third of their time during the first year on client billable work to permit them to devote the remainder of their time to pro bono representations and a wide range of training programs, including the firm’s signature professional development experience - the Howrey Academies. In Year One, associates will work with Howrey’s full-time, in-house writing instructor, be assigned to trial teams, and take advantage of other programs offered by Howrey’s award-winning professional development team. They will dedicate approximately one-third of their time to pro bono and public interest matters, which will afford them the opportunity to develop the advocacy skills and in court experience that are central to Howrey’s practice. The emphasis on training will continue into Year Two, with client secondments, judicial externships, and other advanced development opportunities added to the curriculum. Billable hours in the second year will be capped at roughly half of total hours.
That is the good, here is the salary information:
The Tier 1 program will be limited to a select number of associates each year. Compensation during the first two years will be adjusted to reflect the nature of the program and the dramatically reduced billable hours expectations. In addition to an annual salary of $100,000, first year participants will receive $25,000 upon acceptance of their job offer to help defray their law school loans or third year law school expenses. In their second year at the firm, participants will receive an annual salary of $125,000 and a $25,000 bonus upon successful completion of the program and entry into Tier 2 of Howrey’s associate development program. Higher compensation may be offered to candidates with special qualifications, such as advanced technical degrees or clerkships.
At least Howrey is trying. More details and the full memo and a reader poll after the jump.
If this is truly a glimpse at the future of Biglaw, the most important aspect of that future is experimentation. Instead of just firing associates, deferring first years, no offering summers, or instituting across the board salary cuts, Howrey seems to be trying to do a little more than waiting for the recession to end. An emphasis on training and development — with a reduction in billable hour requirements and associate pay — could benefit both the firm and young attorneys.
Maybe Howrey can give young attorneys the practical training that they are clearly not getting at the nation’s overpriced law schools:
“Tier 1,” Ruyak continued, “addresses what has been lacking across large law firms - a meaningful training experience for their most junior associates. Too often high billable hours requirements are at odds with professional development. By reducing the billable hours requirement, significantly discounting rates and training our associates consistently and creatively, we know we can develop them more effectively and provide more value to our clients.”
If more firms follow Howrey and Drinker Biddle, it could well be that law students will soon have a meaningful choice coming out of law school. Do you want professional training at $100K, or do you want to maximize your income at $160K? Maybe if you are really looking to make a career out of being an attorney, you’ll take less money now for better training. But if you are just trying to pay off as much debt as possible before moving onto other things, you’ll take your $160K for 3 years, pay off some debt, and move away from Biglaw.
Choice is good.
Read the full Howrey memo below, and then take our poll.
HOWREY — MEMO — TIER 1 ASSOCIATE PROGRAM
Howrey Introduces New Program for Entering Associates
Firm Invests in Development of Junior Lawyers, Reduces Billable Hours Requirements and Focuses on Training and Development
Washington, DC, June 22, 2009… Howrey LLP, recognized as a leader for its innovative approach to associate development and career management, today introduced the “Tier 1 Associate Program” for its U.S. associates. The two-year program, which borrows its name from the five-tier performance-based associate compensation and advancement program that Howrey unveiled last year, is a first of it’s kind entry level lawyer training and initiation program specifically designed to accelerate the development of associate competencies.
Participants in Howrey’s Tier 1 Program will spend only one-third of their time during the first year on client billable work to permit them to devote the remainder of their time to pro bono representations and a wide range of training programs, including the firm’s signature professional development experience - the Howrey Academies. In Year One, associates will work with Howrey’s full-time, in-house writing instructor, be assigned to trial teams, and take advantage of other programs offered by Howrey’s award-winning professional development team. They will dedicate approximately one-third of their time to pro bono and public interest matters, which will afford them the opportunity to develop the advocacy skills and in court experience that are central to Howrey’s practice. The emphasis on training will continue into Year Two, with client secondments, judicial externships, and other advanced development opportunities added to the curriculum. Billable hours in the second year will be capped at roughly half of total hours.
In sharp contrast to many other firms, which are asking their entering classes to wait a year or more before starting their law firm careers and beginning to develop their legal skills, Howrey will welcome all of its new associates in the Class of 2009 into the Tier 1 Program on September 28, 2009.
“The beginning of a young lawyer’s career is a critical time. We want our young lawyers to hone their skills and realize their full potential. Our Tier 1 Program is designed to provide all of our participating associates an early and equal opportunity to achieve that objective,” said Bob Ruyak, Chairman and CEO of Howrey.
The Tier 1 Program continues a commitment to professional development that Howrey embarked more than 10 years ago. “This is the next logical step in providing developmental opportunities to our young lawyers and value to our clients,” explained Ruyak. “After we launched our ‘Bootcamp’ summer program, a hands-on experience for second year law students that provides a close up understanding of litigation and trial skills, we articulated the Howrey Competency Model and built an unparalleled training program to ensure that our associates received the support needed to develop critical competencies. This year, after several years of careful planning, Howrey successfully moved off lockstep compensation and advancement and implemented a performance-based system. That move, combined with our Supervising Partner program and a robust evaluation and feedback program, has enabled our associates to truly excel beyond the constraints of a class year.”
“Tier 1,” Ruyak continued, “addresses what has been lacking across large law firms - a meaningful training experience for their most junior associates. Too often high billable hours requirements are at odds with professional development. By reducing the billable hours requirement, significantly discounting rates and training our associates consistently and creatively, we know we can develop them more effectively and provide more value to our clients.”
The Tier 1 program will be limited to a select number of associates each year. Compensation during the first two years will be adjusted to reflect the nature of the program and the dramatically reduced billable hours expectations. In addition to an annual salary of $100,000, first year participants will receive $25,000 upon acceptance of their job offer to help defray their law school loans or third year law school expenses. In their second year at the firm, participants will receive an annual salary of $125,000 and a $25,000 bonus upon successful completion of the program and entry into Tier 2 of Howrey’s associate development program. Higher compensation may be offered to candidates with special qualifications, such as advanced technical degrees or clerkships.
The firm expects that, upon successful completion of the Tier 1 program, associates will receive above-market compensation commensurate with the competencies they will have accrued. The program will not affect the compensation of current Howrey associates.
“I can think of no better way to introduce young lawyers into the profession,” says Ruyak. “We are in constant contact with law schools and others who are as committed as we are to the improvement of the associate experience. Given the success of Bootcamp, the Howrey Competency Model, and our departure from the traditional lockstep compensation system - all of which were developed after extensive research and are continuously refined based on feedback received from our associates, partners and clients - we expect our Tier 1 Associate Program to be well received by associates, clients and the profession.”
Bob Ruyak, who has been honored twice (2008 and 2009) by Legal Times as one of Washington’s Visionary leaders, currently serves as Chairman of the Georgetown University Law Center’s Board of Visitors.
Earlier: Salary Cut Watch: Drinker Biddle Cuts Salaries AND Rates
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First
Now that I'm laid off, I can comment on ATL. Yay!
That sounds like a pretty good deal, actually.
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Would their writing instructor help with this?
"New Howrey associates will be receive and emphasis on training..."
Attention biglaw firms:
DO THIS.
Never let an economic crisis go to waste. Now is the time to do this.
wow. this is awesome, and totally how it should be at all law firms (not just BigLaw). Congrats, Howrey....as much bad stuff as I've heard about that firm, i applaud their efforts to create a training program for 1st year associates. Lawyers need serious practical training at the beginning of their careers, and such training is lacking at law schools.
New York to 200K!
Howrey is a dog sh*t firm. Not surprised.
BTW Howrey, good luck at v20 recruiting for however many years before dissolution.
Not for long 2, you will soon be moderated. Mark my words.
I'll take it!!!
This is awesome. Smart, classy move.
sounds good, doing some actual work never hurts.
I haven't heard this from the firm yet, but I'm just happy to not be on the street.
"a first of it's kind entry level lawyer training and initiation program"
I didn't know Elie moonlights as Howrey's PR person!
Finally, they realized they needed a fourth year of law school to train useful lawyers
In the real world, we call that part-time work.
"The Tier 1 program will be limited to a select number of associates each year."
So are the other incoming associates having their offers rescinded?
zee furst yeer stoodents veell be-a mekeeng less muney. mure-a pruffeet fur pertners! Bork Bork Bork!
What a class act. Here is a firm that is adapting to market realities without completely fucking over its incoming class of associates.
What the big firms fail to realize is that many of us would be happy to take a pay cut -- even a large one -- if it meant we could avoid these deferrals and gain experience. If any biglaw firm is reading this, you should know that we are not all ignorant kids just dying to make 160k. Some of us genuinely want to get real experience and grow as lawyers. Fuck, I would take 90k (even in NYC) if it meant starting my career on time.
Laugh all you want - the old days are gone - now just the drudge work when you can get it.
Actually 16, if all firms fell into line the 3rd year of law school could be eliminated and student debt load decreased.
AutoAdmit has a post discussing possible salary cuts at Skadden per NALP.
Is Howrey a peer firm according to PE?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I think this program is great for first and second years.
With that said, compensation will be higher for those with clerkships... does this mean that post-clerkship associates are starting as first years at Howrey? No class credit? Or do they go into the second year of the program?
$125K for 1000 billable hours sounds okay to me.
*yawn*
This is all just a repeat of the crap that happened in '96. Massive firings, everything went into the crapper, and everyone said we'd never see $100k for first years...
"this has all happened before, and it will happen again"
"New Howrey associates will be receive and emphasis on training..."
Great editing once again, Ellie. Do you EVER reread what you write?
This is a terrible idea. This alone justifies the reason for why Howrey is and never will be a peer firm.
Ok. This is a "Nice" option for incoming 1st years whose only alternatives are Public Interest deferral or NO JOB. Other than that, this looks like it pretty much blows. I'd rather have my normal 1st year gig getting paid 160K. Not really a comparison. This option is only positive if your other alternatives suck.
Just because there's more training doesn't mean it's better training.
Wither Big Law of yesteryear?
Wow, 20. You'd even take 90k? How valiant of you.
Wow. It's one thing for Drinker to go to $105K with Philadelphia's relatively low cost of living. It's quite another for Howrey to go even lower to $100K. Enjoy your apartments in the hood, Howrey associates.
Wow! I wonder if they are going to teach them to read and write, and other such things. Why not just skip law school altogether and go back to the days of reading law. After all, most of what you learn in law school is worhtless anyway, at least in terms of being a practicing attorney. But, but what are they going to do about the affirmative action graduates, since they don't stand a chance of actually progressing through this training program.
It's really 125K with the bonus. I'm assuming they still get the normal bar stipend, etc? The second year is 150K with the bonus. Not as big of a cut as people are making it out to be and pretty nice for no billable hours the first year and only 1000 the second.... I know a lot of current associates who would take that deal to work those hours.
30 nails it. Please note that if you successfully make your way through the program then you can start your career. But is much nicer than the alternative!!!!
so really its $100k with a $25k bonus? doesn't sound that bad to me.
"They will dedicate approximately one-third of their time to pro bono and public interest matters, which will afford them the opportunity to develop the advocacy skills and in court experience that are central to Howrey's practice. "
Translation: we don't have enough work for everyone.
"Compensation during the first two years will be adjusted to reflect the nature of the program and the dramatically reduced billable hours expectations."
Translation: we don't have enough money for everyone.
19=Count Layoffula ripoff
The memo makes it sound like not all first years are going to be in the program, but then it says all of the incoming first years for 2009 will be put in the program. Funny how they try and make it sound selective, "[t]he Tier 1 program will be limited to a select number of associates each year." Anyway, 100K is still better than having no job at all.
How pointless. All you need to know as a mid-level at a big firm is how to manage a document review (litigation) or cut-and-paste deal provisions (transactional work). Why spend two years training junior associates how to write when they won't be writing anything of substance until they're a 10th year? Why train them how to do anything in court when they won't even step foot into a courtroom until they're 40?
Training is for weak links.
Give me REAL WORK, and PAY me appropriately.
More coddling. More useless biglaw attorneys.
Gee, if only there was a place that you could go to get a legal education.....
While this is a good step, the underlying issue is an ineffective, outdated legal education system. But as long as a JD remains a pre-req. to the bar exam, there will be no incentive for law schools to reform themselves.
If law firms in general adopt this, I say we either abolish law school altogether and go back to the was law is taught in other countries - as an undergraduate major plus on-the-job training, OR we at least make law school a 2 year program.
Good idea?
I need some advice.
$100k a year someone just out of law school???
What's the world coming to?!?!?
If my firm does this, I'll be dancing in the streets.
Those of us in class of 2005 started at $125 with minimum billables of 1950 (or 2000). So this is a very generous program from the mid-level perspective.
Who exactly is going to be providing this "training"? I hope to god not the firms' professional development departments. If not, I know partners are lining-up to provide the training b/c they don't have enough on their plate at the moment.
PE - "justifies the reason for why"?
You could use an associate to edit your posts, or soemone with tenth grade writing skills.
Sounds like a great program. I'd take 80k (in NYC).
@16,
What are the second 2 years of law school for?
The problem isn't that we need more schooling - it's that we need more effective schooling.
Restructure legal education. 2 years of law school followed by 2 years of paid residency (exactly like medical students' residencies), option of an additional fellowship for specialization. Proficiency exam after law school. Licensing and proficiency exam after residency.
I suppose that I should know the answer to this question, but is Howrey LLP accredited by the American Bar Association?
"Higher compensation may be offered to candidates with special qualifications, such as advanced technical degrees or clerkships."
It sounds like they are trying to expand Ip and contract other less profitable departments. Not a bad concept given where the market is at.
Will more firms do this?
Please advise.
56 -- I hope more firms do something like this. It really is the only way to avoid the mass offer-revocations that will happen after the bar exam.
PE,
Please stop. The thought of you racing to write poorly worded, unfunny comments on every post is starting to depress me.
Good translation, 39.
Can we dispense with the ridiculous notion that generic "pro bono" work somehow trains you to do the real work that big firms do? When it's not the same practice area, the clients have different demands and expectations, and you're not learning how to work within the hierarchy of a big law trial team, how does that have any correlation whatsoever to the type of work that is done by firms like Howrey? I'd be deeply upset if I were planning to start work at Howrey and they pulled this b.s. on me--or any of the other forced pro bono / deferral options. But as people have pointed out, at least they'll eat and have health insurance.
When I first read this post, I was intrigued by the mention of an "apprenticeship model." I don't see that here. A real apprenticeship model would attach young associates to top lawyers and have them follow them around, learn what they do and soak up everything that they can. That is something that I would take a pay cut for. It would be like clerking for a senior partner or being their personal assistant or something, but at least you could sit and watch what someone at the top of the food chain actually does,e.g. client meetings, trials, important depos etc. I don't think the word "apprentice" has anything to do with the plan Howrey has announced. 39 was right, they're just saying we won't even pretend that we have enough work for you to bill 2000 hours, so we're telling you in advance that we'll be paying you less, you'll be doing more pro bono, and you're going to sit through more CLE presentations and mock trial stuff than you normally would.
No, Elie does not re-read what he writes.
That is why he works for ATL.
55--they only have 3 depts, IP, litigation, and antitrust. IP is actually down almost 20% this year.
NY to $75K!
All that is missing are steel balls on the part of partners. They have the advantage in today's economy. Do they realize it? Will they take advantage of it? Willingness to take this drastic step will (a) preserve PPP and (b) be in line with current economic realities for associates.
this is a game changing event. By October 15 - all megas in major markets with a handful of exceptions will dial back new associate salaries to 125,000 - at most. In early January 2010 salaries for experienced associates will be dialed back as well - harshly, significantly, and permanently.
The game be changing...
I would perform sexual favors for this position.
"The firm expects that, upon successful completion of the Tier 1 program, associates will receive above-market compensation commensurate with the competencies they will have accrued."
Friends going to Howrey: Might want to get some sort of written guarantee on that one.....
I agree with 20, I don't see what's so terrible about a firm taking the time to formulate what actually looks to be, wait for it . . . wait for it . . . a PLAN for its young associates.
Sure, the pay cut sucks. But the reactionary "one fell swoop" approach of deferrals that most firms are taking isn't a plan, it's the postponement of the real decision these firms will have to make--how to handle incoming associates unwanted by both the firm and the client, while at the same time trying to preserve the firm's image and prestige.
No one wants to train juniors. It isn't going to happen. Sorry suckers.
66 - no worries. above market compensation could be 126,000 a year when the market settles at 125,000.
Do I hear 70K (in NYC)?
This is still $20,000 more than the Latham NY salary for the average first year class of 2008.
PE - Just curious as to who you view as a peer? I'm guessing it's New York Law, Brooklyn Law, Hofstra and Touro.
Downward facing dog.
As a former CACD clerk, I would LAUGH if I got an externship application from a 1st or 2nd year associate and then promptly add their address into my mail merge file. I can't imagine a scenario where a clerk making $70K a year would want to deal with the bullshit of an extern making $100K a year (whose clerkship apps likely were dinged).
PE - Just curious as to who you view as a peer? I'm guessing it's New York Law, Brooklyn Law, Hofstra and Touro.
I invoke "ship be sinkin'" guy.
It would be in the best interest of law firms, lawyers, and clients (especially clients) everywhere if all firms moved to this model.
tier 1? more like TTTier 3.
Howrey doing?
Comment removed by moderator.
39, 42 and 59- I disagree.
A larger amount of pro bono does not translate into "not enough billable work to go around", and scalability and nuance aside, it offers incredibly valuable experience to the young lawyer.
Speaking from the perspective of a litigator:
How often does a junior lawyer get to take critical depositions, conduct other discovery, draft pleadings from soup to nuts, and prepare dispositive motions? The answer is generally "no" for those junior lawyers whose work is confined to paying clients. Heavily supervised pro bono results in meaningful experience for junior attorneys without a heavily compromised work-product.
More firms should do what DBR and Howrey are doing.
Pretty much shows just how useless Third Year of law school is, just save students the $50k in tuition and it sounds like a decent deal. Otherwise, give me $160k, let me hypothetically do real work, and actually pay off my law school mortgage in my lifetime.
Comment 80 was removed.
Is Kash available this evening?
The comments today have been some of the most boring I have read on here as of late. wtf?
NECKFACE!
78 - You said three twice
What is Tier 2? Tier 3?
Actually, did you know you can sit for the NY bar with only a year of law school and a certain time on as an apprentice? Since they hire off of 1L grades anyway, wouldn't this make a lot more sense? Am I going to learn corps by looking at actual corporate documents or from a Gilbert's outline? Of course, if your heart is really into "poverty law" or "transgender law" you can stay in Sucker U.
Why hasn't a competitor entered the law school market offering a 2-year degree? Is there an ABA requirement that the course of study be 3 years? Has anyone looked into this?
If they could get accredited, and achieve an acceptable bar pass rate, I wouldn't be surprised to see either Yale or Stanford try to be trendy and do it as well. They could keep the same faculty, increase their class sizes, and keep the same amount of enrollment and tuition coming in, while cranking out more T3 diplomas faster.
You take one year out of the process and you reduce the debt-load by a third (i's good at maths). You get debtloads back under 75,000, and students don't need six figure starting salaries.
Remind me to never go sailing with Michael Ray Richardson.
81--the problem is that pro bono at howrey and at most firms do not give you any of those skills. you get stuck dealing with crazy homeless people and MAYBE making an appearance in court. There are no depos, high level briefings, blah blah blah.
What I haven't seen mentioned is how much this screws the current first years at Howrey. They have just gotten priced out of any work they could hope to get.
81--the problem is that pro bono at howrey and at most firms do not give you any of those skills. you get stuck dealing with crazy homeless people and MAYBE making an appearance in court. There are no depos, high level briefings, blah blah blah.
What I haven't seen mentioned is how much this screws the current first years at Howrey. They have just gotten priced out of any work they could hope to get.
92--this policy doesn't affect current howrey associates, at least not in any direct ways. they still get their same salaries and have the same billable hour requirements they did yesterday.
26 - that's $125K for 1000 billable hours PLUS another 1000 (or more?) training/pro bono/copying/coffee getting/whatever they can come up with, perhaps even more billable work if they can get clients to pay. So its $125K (with $25K of that also paying for your bar taking time, which means its less than the old 1999 $125K per year salary) for a full year's work, instead of $160K. And does anyone really think that they'll suddenly come up with a sweet training system that they could not and did not do before? Unlikely. And does anyone not think that the reference to "successful" completion mean that there's a cut after 2 years? This is 2 cheap years for Howrey, then a built in cut that did not exist before. Celebrate good times. It beats unemployment, but that's it. So congrats Howry, you will now successfully recruit those law students whose other option is unemployment.
T14 law students (the top half of the class and clerks-to-be, that is), now you know who to avoid.
PS - Long live The Swedish Partner! (I thought it was Mork, Mork, Mork, though?)
Anyone actually think that those deferred to January won't get redeferred to next Fall, with no stipend?
95 -- Fair point. But I would still prefer this deal over having my offer revoked after the bar. And let's be honest, revocations will come during the next leg down.
A bit late to tell people they will make $60,000 less than they expected. Was there any interim communication indicating this was coming? Or did everyone just know that $160K was no longer operational? If Howrey didn't give any warning, or even reassured incoming 1st years that all was well, then those folks may be able to bring a promisory estoppel/detrimental reliance case. Open and shut, no?
92/92 --
Have actually ever done pro bono work? I have, and, yes, you do go to court, take deps, etc. I represented a disabled person in an ADA lawsuit and gained good practical dep and courtroom experience.
I also have friends who gained similar experience through pro bono work, including arguing cases before federal appellate courts.
Get your head out of that stack of documents you've been reviewing for just one moment.
85, the SAs are at work and are scared to post from the office.
An attorney on a pro bono matter at Howrey last year argued before a Federal Court of Appeals. I'd take that pro bono work any day.
Howrey... the first American firm to adopt the Canadian model.
93-
You've been getting the wrong cases. 99 is absolutely correct.
-81
This is just another gimmicky and cheap attempt to become relevant in the DC legal market. Anyone remember the much ballyhooed "Howrey Litigation Boot Camp" (hard work, no frills, shorter summer program designed for "hard core" recruits)? I remember that recruiting stunt from my law school years. The result? Nobody I knew at my T14 school even bothered to attend an on campus interview with them. Good luck with the new "At Howrey You're Not Really A Lawyer Yet" program.
I'm sure recent law school grads who've passed the bar will revel in telling their friends and family that they're now "apprentices". I guess they could all spend they're extra time learning to be a cobbler in case they're unceremoniously fired after their "apprenticeship".
99--I'm at Howrey and do pro bono work there. With a few rare exceptions, it's the crazy homeless people you get. Anything more interesting gets snapped up by senior associates or the pro bono fellows.
Apparently they had a conference call with incoming 1st year associates and promised that headhunters would be knocking down their doors at the end of the 2nd year - they would have that much better training and experience. Realistic?
I second 99's experience. At my firm I've seen first-year associates argue before federal courts of appeals and third-years take and defend depositions. Pro bono is a great way to get responsibility and experience, if you choose your cases wisely.
106 - weird approach if this is in fact what happened. come work for us, because we'll help you get a better job!
106 - they actually TOLD their incoming associates that the upside would be increased opportunity to leave Howrey (in so many words)? Wow. Interesting incentivizing. Or just another subtle way of saying that many/all will be gone after their two inexpensive years?
Howrey is a TTT in decline.
my ass lobster is unamused
106 -
Well, doing some work is better than doing no work at all in that time period. So if the pro bono stuff is substantive experience, that's somewhat marketable. But most juniors should be doing lots of CLE/formal training anyways, so that probably doesn't add much.
Lateral hires at the junior level usually come down to two primary considerations. How did you do in school? And what kind of stuff have you worked on for paying clients? I don't see where Howrey program helps out alot in those areas.
The ship be sinking...
I'm intrigued by some of the comments here regarding substantive pro bono work. I too have known lots of people that have gotten to argue before various courts of appeal, but since I'm not an appellate lawyer and don't want to be, those opportunities haven't particularly intrigued me. I would appreciate hearing about what type of pro bono work people are aware of where litigation associates get more normal trial-level experience, e.g. depos, motions practice etc. I would love to know what types of cases those are, what types of organizations provide that type of work etc.
It's one thing when a partner takes on a litigation pro bono because of some connection to the client, e.g. some charitable org. that the partner is involved with gets sued. It's another thing altogether to find a non-profit organization that funnels real litigation work to firms to staff on a pro bono basis. I'm very interested to hear about organizations that do the latter, and where it is possible to find that type of work on a regular basis.
MOAR BAREBACK
regarding the Howrey pro bono work for Tier 1's - they did say that at the end of your second year you would do a pro bono trial. That's pretty substantive pro bono work, no?
114-
Many reputable law firms are on the roll of firms contributing pro bono efforts for court-appointed work. Sometimes you luck out and the court appoints you for a case that will definitely survive up to and beyond summary judgment; sometimes you don't. Luck and good early case assessment can get you a case with the potential to get "soup to nuts" experience.
Hey #34 - you are a racist bastard! ask anyone who lives in dc or is from dc if you can find a nice place to live on $100k a year? the answer will be yes! if you can't budget your money and are afraid to work hard and learn your craft, go back to wherever you came from since $100k is not enough. So sorry that law grads have to live in the real world with all the rest of us.
ELLIE IS A FAT COW
I worked at Howrey and it is a piece of shit firm w/a bunch of cut throat, manic attorneys. This is typical Howrey bullshit - another way to screw people over (and they haven't even stepped foot in the firm yet)! Good luck to these poor souls.
118 = RACIST
hey number 120....you sound like a jilted lover. move on already...or go buy a gallon of Jack and get a new life. remember....you worked at Howrey....past tense. find another firm to play crazy jilted stalker with.
Comment from WSJ article: "So, what about the staffers (paralegals, lit support) whose bill rates are above $275/hour? Howrey has already been sytematically shedding experienced staff and bringing in labor that isn’t competent to do the job to justify Director careers and bill rates ($450/hour). When a ship is sinking, the rats run for the upper decks."
Look, let's be honest. No one has heard of this place. They "specialize" in three things and aren't even recognized as leaders in those areas. They are now (as they have been for sometime) a glorified contract attorney service. This is the beginning of the end of their charade as an actual big law firm.
Look, let's be honest. No one has heard of this place. They "specialize" in three things and aren't even recognized as leaders in those areas. They are now (as they have been for sometime) a glorified contract attorney service. This is the beginning of the end of their charade as an actual big law firm.
Look, let's be honest. No one has heard of this place. They "specialize" in three things and aren't even recognized as leaders in those areas. They are now (as they have been for sometime) a glorified contract attorney service. This is the beginning of the end of their charade as an actual big law firm.
Look, let's be honest. No one has heard of this place. They "specialize" in three things and aren't even recognized as leaders in those areas. They are now (as they have been for sometime) a glorified contract attorney service. This is the beginning of the end of their charade as an actual big law firm.
Look, let's be honest. No one has heard of this place. They "specialize" in three things and aren't even recognized as leaders in those areas. They are now (as they have been for sometime) a glorified contract attorney service. This is the beginning of the end of their charade as an actual big law firm.
Look, let's be honest. No one has heard of this place. They "specialize" in three things and aren't even recognized as leaders in those areas. They are now (as they have been for sometime) a glorified contract attorney service. This is the beginning of the end of their charade as an actual big law firm.
Although 124-29 is clearly unable to master the art of posting a comment, it's correct. Only a matter of time before these folks are just a high-end contract attorney service.
What a misleading headline! I thought Howrey cut current first years down to $100k. I almost sh*t my pants.
the pay cut is sort of a bummer, but if they come through on the training, that's invaluable. Really can't replace it. Very thoughtful, smart and innovative.
kudos to this firm for the way they (sort of) masked a significant pay cut.
i'd be happy to work for 100~125 for the first year or two. of course i'll be punching out at 5 and taking 2 weeks of vacation at the same time
Howrey is an A list firm that has the top antitrust practice in the world and a top 5 IP practice. This move will embolden many general practice firms to change the first year model...for better and worse.
"THE top antitrust practice in the world?"
I'd say go back to law school, but not even a law student would say something so idiotic. They barely have the top antitrust practice on their block.
seems better than being deferred a year for 60k. and nobody is being let go.
How about time for ass pounding the secretaries. This is an important part of associate training, so what's up with this important issue.
136 - See: http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/antitrustprof_blog/2007/01/top_antitrust_l.html
Idiot.
@ 106 - That was a very tense conference call. The partner on the call did a terrible job selling the incoming associates on the plan. Several incoming associates made their feelings known that they felt that they were promised something completely different as little as four weeks earlier. There were pointed questions about how law school debt could be paid off given the new pay scale, why incoming associates were not told of the plan earlier, and why it wasn't simply being announced and implemented with next year's class. The partner on the call made several allusions to there being no market for first year associate work and said that no one would pay over $145,000 for first year work. He then said the plan meant that it was very difficult to be fired. He was pressed for a firm commitment on that point and immediately backed off of it. The firm had no real answer as to what those incoming associates (apprentices?) who took the $30,000 interest free loan from Howrey instead of the $10,000 signing bonus would now have to do in terms of repayment. One incoming associate made the point that the associate was planning on buying a house soon and that this pay cut would make that impossible. The partner essentially shamed the associate with a very condescending answer. The claim was made that there would be market pressure on Howrey to give the associates who completed the program a substantial bump in pay - but exactly what that would be, the metrics for determining it, and what would happen if an associate substantially completed the program but did not complete 100% of the goals for the program were not discussed in detail despite several probing questions. The call ended abruptly after that.
139 - "Top antitrust practice in the world" is a bit of a stretch. They're not shabby, but going by the rankings that lawyers and clients actually use (Chambers), they're still second tier behind at least 6 other firms.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/editorial.aspx?ssid=33219
136 - He's right though, you are an idiot.
-Not 136 or 139.
Back when they paid something resembling market, Howrey still pretended that 100% of your pro bono work counted as billable time.
For most of the incoming associates, this "training" will mean:
(1) immigration cases that you know nothing about and which don't teach you anything about your practice area;
(2) boring, stupid online "Howrey University" classes and boring teleseminars that in some states won't even count as CLE credit for you;
(3) writing classes with an instructor who for over a year billed himself as "Dr. B___ O____, Ph.D"
(4) enough time to talk with recruiters about getting a real job somewhere other than the Titanic
Back when they paid something resembling market, Howrey still pretended that 100% of your pro bono work counted as billable time.
For most of the incoming associates, this "training" will mean:
(1) immigration cases that you know nothing about and which don't teach you anything about your practice area;
(2) boring, stupid online "Howrey University" classes and boring teleseminars that in some states won't even count as CLE credit for you;
(3) writing classes with an instructor who for over a year billed himself as "Dr. B___ O____, Ph.D"
(4) enough time to talk with recruiters about getting a real job somewhere other than the Titanic
132,
Training is a really, really poor substitute for experience. Law is something you learn by doing under pressure, not by listening to lectures.
haha and to think, i almost accepted at howrey. thank god i dodged that bullet.
i think that i'd rather take pillsbury walk away money than this version of 100k limbo. sounds as if it has career killer written all over it. how are you to compete with 3 yr associates who have 2 yrs of real, substantive experience. no one cares about your stupid lil boot camp. the entire thing is a charade.
If it was between 100k and a no-offer, I'd take the goddamn 100k.
OH BOY!!!!!!! Howrey is giving 100k for its first year associates????
I have top grades at Western State University College of Law and I impress all of my teachers and colleagues in my achievements! I have out-ranked many of my colleagues and achieved top grades at the school! I will even try out for law review and have an article published in Western State's law review
I will try out for Howrey and make that 100K, while all you guys will lose out in the interview because your resume is not as impressive as mine!
I'd be pretty pissed off if I were a Howrey 1L coming in to find that I am making about a Y2K starting salary and then having to sit around the office doing glorified CLE for 1000 hours a year.
144 is totally right. If by "training" a law firm means sitting through a high-level lecture during which you have no clue how what you're learning applies to anything and after which you forget everything, then you might as well go to law school for another year. Working on actual matters shows you how messy the facts are in real life compared to the tidy narratives of a judicial opinion, and only by applying the law to actual, complicated situations and dealing with all of the parties involved will you really learn the law and learn to be a lawyer.
All the doom and gloom about associate salaries dropping at all BigLaw firms is pretty funny in light of the most amusing headline I've seen this year....
"Goldman Sachs to pay out record bonuses: report".
I'm not saying the economy is out of the woods, but it's pretty ironic that a fourth-rate firm announces this crap on the same day that this is a big headline.
140 -- I don't think you (or your future colleagues) appreciate what your firm is doing for you. The partner was right to say that there is no market for first-year associate work right now. The bottom line is that clients are not willing to pay for first years in the "new economy". Not to mention that the volume of work is way down, so there is not enough of the "trickle down" work that kept first-years busy throughout the past decade.
The majority of large firms have chosen to "defer" the careers of the very people they recruited just over a year ago;
Today: ""Tier 1," Ruyak continued, "addresses what has been lacking across large law firms - a meaningful training experience for their most junior associates. Too often high billable hours requirements are at odds with professional development. By reducing the billable hours requirement, significantly discounting rates and training our associates consistently and creatively, we know we can develop them more effectively and provide more value to our clients."
As soon as business picks up: "Never mind."
140 -- I don't think you (or your future colleagues) appreciate what your firm is doing for you. You guys actually had the nerve to complain about a pay-cut in this economy?
The partner was right to say that the market for first-year associate work has dried up. The volume of work is way down, and for the little work there is, clients are not willing to pay for first-years. This is a "new economy", and the old model of paying us $160k right out of law school is broken.
Most big firms have responded to this shift by "deferring" the careers of the very people they aggressively recruited just over a year ago. They are paying us to not show up until January (or September) of next year. And even that is wishful thinking; indeed, it is highly unlikely that all of us will start on the arbitrary dates our firms picked as the new start dates. Any firm that deferred simply didn't want to deal with the issue, so they swept us under the rug until January/September when they will re-visit the problem. In the meanwhile, we are all having daily panic attacks about whether we will ever start working.
Howrey recognizes the damage that is being done to our careers by these "deferrals" and actually formulated a plan. And it sounds pretty fair to me. I would trade places with you in a second, and I am at a higher ranked firm, for whatever that's worth.
To PE -- "justifies the reason"? Wow.
Never heard of them.
I think this is a great idea. If all law firms did this, then we could do away with overpriced law schools altogether and just go straight from college to apprenticing (like most of the world). Law could then become an undergraduate major.
I suspect that upper management at Howrey is posting to this board to create a false sense of positivity about the latest Howrey scam. Let me attempt to set the record straight.
Bob Ruyak (Howrey's "Managing Partner and CEO" -- how's that for a title? The firm's home page also praises him as a "visionary.") has an amazing ability to spin his firm's dire circumstances into something that most of the press blindly perceives as positive. But let me assure you, there is nothing positive about this.
The ONLY reason that Howrey is doing this is because it does not have the work that it used to have. If Howrey's work rebounds, do you really think that first and second year associates (or whatever ridiculous title Howrey is now giving them) will be capped to ~700 hours per year? Of course not. Howrey, like all partnerships, exists for the benefit of its partners. There is ZERO justification (i.e., it would be a breach of fiduciary duty) for Ruyak to cap first and second year associates at 700 hours/year if there were more money to be made.
The secondment idea is ridiculous. I cannot imagine that too many companies are going to take on the burden of a first year, know-nothing associate that they have to pay $150-$200/hour to train. Nor are Howrey partners going to gleefully hand over first year associates about whom they know nothing to long-term clients. The potential for poisoning valuable client relationships is just too immense, especially for a has-been firm like Howrey.
So the take home message is this: Howrey is desperate for work, and "innovator" Bob Ruyak is disguising his firm's lack of work with this ridiculous apprenticeship program, and extolling the virtues of (1) doing less work for clients (2) under a drastically slashed pay structure.
I give the guy credit for being clever. I give the press no credit for missing the actual story.
Who is devising the training program? Overworked senior associates just thrilled to have more crap dumped on their plate? Or will they actually pay for useful training like NITA? I could see the training being a massive waste of time like it is for 99% of the " training" they offer at my firm. Reduced hours is cool, but not if they make up the difference with bs training.
I love Swedish Partner. Please return
Partner Emeritus -
Your pathetic post justifies the reason why you are considered an idiot. And not the funny kind.
139 -
More than three years ago a blog quoted a single publication that put Howery on top. Setting aside the fact that Chambers is a much more reliable measure, the fact that Howery clings to accolades from years ago makes the point that their time has come and gone. When you can't do better than mediocrity in your specialty areas, it's the beginning of the end.
157 - you act as if Howrey is the only firm with less work to do. Why do you think ALL the big firms deferred for 6 months, a year, or permanently - because they are swimming in billable work?
I could see a program like this working in some ways - yeah, training is no substitute for "real work", but you act as if: (1) there is enough real work that somehow the 1Ls are being denied, and; (2) that 1st and 2nd year associates at all other firms get to do "real work" - research papers and doc reviews aren't any better than handling your own pro bono matter or shadowing a trial team and learning on the job without dying to make your billable requirement so you can get your year-end bonus.
Oh P.S. - 1st years at all the other law firms will be sitting home for the next six months or a year - is that better than Howrey's training?
This is a weak ass program. If the partners were pulling their weight, there'd be enough work to fill the plates of associates. Or, hire/retain less associates, and deal with it when the market picks up and you're not leveraged enough. Hiring full time employees and 'seconding' them out is great.... in CUBA.
161: You make some great points I think many law students simply do not understand.
162: Your first point re: partners not pulling their weight shows an alarming lack of knowledge as it pertains law firm economics. Continue on that path and you will never make partner and thankfully so. I'd like to point out to you that this is a global recession and it affects everybody and everything. Including the ability of partners at law firm to make rain.
Your second point shows that there may be some hope yet for you in regards to hiring and/or less associates which many firms including mine are doing or have already done. The sad part is that when we decide to retain less, you also complain about "stealth layoffs", therefore you only get half credit. As to your assertions to "deal with it" when markets pick up and the firm's not leveraged enough, that's simply bad business. No well managed firm would ever placed its partners in a position to be unable to compete for work when the market turns around.
There are very few drivers to law firm profitability and leverage is one of them. To ignore that puts the firm in peril but I would not expect you to understand that.
At least the first years at Howrey will be starting this year. They will be 2nd years by the time people who also graduated in 2009 start work.
@140 - So, your story is that law students who have too much debt from tuition and living expenses during law school (hint, you can cut back on both of those, especially the second) who also took out more debt (30k loan, rather than 10k gift), and also are looking to take out more debt (buying a house) are screwed because they're only going to be paid $100k/year (ok, $125k) for working 1/3 time? I'm crying for them.
I would take this gladly. am a first year in a T5 firm where i am maximising my income but I constantly feel the pressure of trying to maximise my billables too. 100k is a lot of money for the first year of work and the 2 year training process is something i would be completely on board with.
A billable requirement of 700 hours is a gift, even with less pay. I made 125K as a first year for 2000 billable hours, and only 135K as a second year (the going rates back in early/mid-2000s). For those law students who view decreased hours and lesser pay as a negative, you might change your mind after you gain some actual work experience. After a few years in Biglaw, churning out 2500 hours a year with no free time and unused vacation time piling up, you'd be willing to trade some money for less hours too. To the new Howrey 1st years, enjoy your 125K vacation! I'd love to trade places with you.
140 said: One incoming associate made the point that the associate was planning on buying a house soon and that this pay cut would make that impossible. The partner essentially shamed the associate with a very condescending answer.
I say: What an idiot that associate is. Do you have any idea how many deferred first years are in an even worse position -- a lot less money, and little to no chance of geting the legal skills necessary to stay in the profession? Howrey is giving you a life preserver. Grab hold and swim as hard as you can.
"A very condescending answer" indeed. If it were me, I would have fired her on the spot for insubordination and utter lack of judgment.
Agree wholeheartedly with 169. What a maroon . . . A sense of entitlement will not get you far these days. Even the still employed I-bankers figured that out.
Also, if housing is down 18% in the area from last year (presumably when this person summered and developed certain expectations), then an approx. 20% reduction in salary from $160,000 really shouldn't make home ownership suddenly impossible. It's simply time to scale back the expectations.
170: You mean a moron, right?
A training program is certainly better than nothing, and at least folks are around if the work comes back. But in no sense is it a substitute for a real work experience, and it has to be tough on the Howrey incoming folks, although not as tough as it is upon others. I don't think the program will be much of a benefit, but who knows. They have some good resources. Like someone else said on some other post, if you are in there, try to hook up with a strong partner with business and develop a mentoring relationship (easier said than done, at any firm, since most of these folks eat their young -- but their you go)
First to say though, that people hire lawyers, not law firms, and rankings are pretty much bs. Howrey has more than its fair share of the best antitrust lawyers in the world, to include market dominance in their core US industries, like oil and gas. And I would hire SB or RA anytime for any matter as a first choice if my usual firm were conflicted.
I am told that they acquired top UK and EU practice groups as well. I don't like their IP lawyers at all, and wouldn't hire them --but have to acknowledge that they utterly and completely beat the living crap out of the two law firms we hired to go against them. (Always nice to have the facts and the law on your side, but they knew what to do once they had the power!!)
I have some empathy for the poor soul who wanted to buy a house. Probably a life long dream, worked so hard for, crashing around his or her eyes. The fact that the partner condescended is typical tough love.
That is exactly what I would have done if I ran a biglaw firm. It is also exactly what I wish I could have found when I graduated from law school. I chose this career because I want to become a good lawyer, and who are we kidding--a year out I am still not worth $160k. I'd rather get the training and wait for the big bucks until I actually deserve it.
The last firm that tried this stunt was Heller Ehrman, which dramatically reduced its billable requirement for first years. We all saw what happened next....
The last firm that tried this stunt was Heller Ehrman, which dramatically reduced its billable requirement for first years. We all saw what happened next....
The last firm that tried this stunt was Heller Ehrman, which dramatically reduced its billable requirement for first years. We all saw what happened next....
171: No, he really meant maroon.
Don't you remember watching Bugs Bunny?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=maroon
171 = Flamer Idiot. Presumably, you wanted to make some snipey non-substantive comment correcting another poster because playing grammar police makes you feel cool for some reason. But, as your types tend to do, you revealed your own ignorance in the process.
-Bugs
why not just reduce billing rates of 1st years by 20% in order to gin up more actually billable work and then raise rates quickly (along with salaries) to market by 3rd year?
why not just give all incoming first years the option to work half time. 30 hour work weeks for half the pay. Any first year that complains they can't pay back loans on $80,000 is spoiled or crazy.
Didnt this used to be a government contracts firm?
Definitely sounds like Howrey's PR people are sock-puppeting a lot of these positive posts.
179 - essentially, they are in fact just reducing the billing rates of 1st years by 20% to gin up more actually billable work. The 1/3 of total time billable hours limit is so 1st years don't start taking work from other jr. associates when the clients (hopefully) jump on board for the cheap labor.
183 - not only are they sock-puppeting the positive posts, but they clearly have an in with ATL/Elie somewhere. If this were almost any other firm, Elie would be slamming them. Instead, we get editorial comments like "welcome to the future," "that is the good," "at least Howrey is trying," and "choice is good" sprinkled throughout the post. There is a lot more (or, depending on how you look at it, a lot LESS) going on at Howrey these days than ATL/Elie will report.
147.....
Looks like someone was lied to by career services (assuming your "school" has one)!!
Is this "Bob_Dell" thing a shtick? If not, the guy is an absolute douche.