Minnesota: Protects College Students, Sticks it to Law Students
The state of Minnesota is providing more evidence that law schools are completely out of whack with the current market realities. The state is doing what it can to keep undergraduate tuition low, at the expense of law students who will be drowning in so much debt they’ll need to grow gills.
The Minneapolis Star-Tribune reports the most recent tuition proposal coming out of Minnesota:
Undergraduates catch a break in the next University of Minnesota budget that would keep their tuition increases low despite a cut in state funding.Graduate and professional students won’t have the same luck.
The students who make up about 40 percent of the student body are the hidden victims of a bad-news budget that the Board of Regents is expected to vote on Wednesday.
By “graduate and professional students” the paper really means to say law students. The proposed tuition hike is larger for future (unemployed) lawyers than other graduate students:
While in-state undergraduate students will face 3.1 percent tuition hikes, most grad students could see a 7.5 percent increase in their bills this year. First-year medical students’ in-state rate may rise 5.2 percent, to $32,328. Newbie Minnesotan law students could pay 15.3 percent more than their counterparts did last year.
Are Minnesota state officials even nominally aware of what is going on in the legal market in their own state? Could somebody point the Board of Regents to www.abovethelaw.com after the jump?
Earlier this month, we reported that Dorsey & Whitney lead the charge for cutting salaries among top Minnesota-based law firms. After Dorsey’s cuts, Minnesota Lawyer pointed out that Dorsey could be leading a trend towards lowering associate salaries:
Locally, Dorsey & Whitney last week fired the first shot in what threatens to become a full-fledged big firm salary retreat by making a 10 percent across-the-board cut in associates’ pay. Starting pay at Dorsey had reached $120,000 a year locally during the height of the salary wars, but since the start of the year salaries at the firm have been frozen in place. (The 10 percent salary decrease was announced the same day the firm laid off 55 support staff, including 38 in its Minneapolis office. While Faegre & Benson and several other big firms in town have also laid lawyers off, Dorsey so far has been able to avoid doing that.)The salary cut for associates was intended as a “share the pain” approach that protects positions, according to Dorsey managing partner Marianne Short. The move was also in line with Dorsey’s perception of market trends.
“The 10 percent decrease looked to us to be the right piece for associates to bear and also probably consistent with what we think the market will be for associate salaries in the future,” Short said.
Evidently, Minnesota educators don’t really care that lawyers are getting squeezed when it comes time to actually find gainful employment.
But perhaps the bigger question is whether or not potential students understand what is happening in the legal market:
Cost was “a huge factor” in Kevin Lampone’s decision about where to attend law school. His first choice was the University of Minnesota, but other schools offered him enough in scholarships to cover tuition completely. Then he learned that the U would cover half.“If I hadn’t gotten half paid for, it would have been a very difficult decision,” said the 30-year-old Minneapolis resident, who starts at the U in the fall….
Like students in other fields, Lampone said the amount he’ll take out in loans would partially determine his job after graduation. He hopes to work in public law.
“I was concerned that if I took out too much, I’d have to go to work for a law firm because I would need to have that additional income,” he said. “The cost definitely affects what kinds of jobs you can make work.”
Is this kid freaking kidding me? “Public law.” Really? Your education could become 15% more expensive and you’re worried about being forced to have to work for a law firm? Do you mean one of the firms that isn’t hiring, or do you mean one of the firms that is actively paying people to do the “public law” jobs so that the non-profit organizations don’t have to pay for new employees?
As I’ve said before, I have great sympathy for the classes of 2009, 2010, and 2011. The legal market was pulled right out from under these people. But the class of 2012? Are you really thinking at all?
Have you ever had a single moment’s thought about your responsibilities? Have you ever thought, for a single solitary moment about your responsibilities to your debt obligations? Do you have the slightest idea, what a moral and ethical principle is, DO YOU? Has it ever occurred to you what would happen to your future, if you were to fail to live up to your responsibilities? Has it ever occurred to you? HAS IT??
Somebody give me the bat.
U grad students facing big tuition hike [Minneapolis Star-Tribune]
Will associate salaries tumble? [Minnesota Lawyer]
Earlier: Salary Cut Watch: Dorsey & Whitney Cuts Salaries by 10%




Comments
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Save the studetns!
First comment removed by moderator
Headline typos? Jesus Elie.
MinnesoTTTa places significantly below its US News "rank." Congrats to those students who have trudged across North America in pursuit of rank. Your job prospects are bad and you will now be paying massive tuition.
"Minnesota: Protects College Studetns, Sticks it to Law Students"
FIX THE TITLE YOU DUMB FUCK
OH. ELIE! "STUDETNS"!?
This is the greatest of my many humiliations.
Elie "Jackie" Childs
Speaking of Minnesota, Al Franken just conceded the court battle. Coleman is senator!
Comment removed by moderator.
THANKS
-5
Wait, thats not how you spell students? Thanks for pointing it out, I would never have understood the rest of the story otherwise.
SMU2L
Comment removed by moderator.
Comment removed by moderator.
Is ATL even "nominally aware" of what is happening to state budgets? And by the way, what does it mean to be "nominally aware" of something?
Comment removed by moderator.
"You could always get a real job."
No.
MYSTTTAL
I for one am excited about the move; maybe if law schools keep jacking up tuition we'll have less lawyers clogging up the unemployment lines in the future. Not like BigLaw hires MinnesoTTTa grads anyway.
Stay Classy, ATL
Is this really more whining from law students?
You could always get a real job.
"But the class of 2012? Are you really thinking that everything will be fine in 2015?"
-Why would the class of 2012 care what the legal market will bel ike 3 years after they graduate from law school?
Commenter eaten by Moderator for lunch.
They have a law school in MN? I thought all they had was Mall of America, 10,000 lakes, and blonde women of Norse descent.
What is happening today? Why are so many comments being removed? Were they really bad?
Old News,
University of Minnesota (prior to these Hikes)
Law School Cost of Attendance in 2008-09
Resident Tuition: $21,900
Non-resident Tuition: $32,303
Undergrad/other grad non science
Resident Tuition: 10,000 approx
Non Resident Tuition : 20000 approx
Go Golden Gophers and the laws of supply and demand. Dress warmly
Lampone is thirty years old. Hardly a "kid."
Now this is a story;
http://deadspin.com/5299545/the-trials-of-willie-the-inflatable-dry+humping-shark
I suppose that I should know the answer to this question, but is the law school at the University of Minnesota accredited by the American Bar Association?
3 = BigLaw summer associate with little work to do aka not getting an offer.
Comments are being removed more often because ATL is trying to deflect negative criticism. ATL is also suspending IP addresses from commenting.
This site is fear-peddling and laughing all the way to the bank.
Don't be surprised if this comment is removed shortly after it posts (although the only reason it may stay up is bc i just wrote that).
Ouch - I hope the students know what they're getting into.
I don't understand why people have to pay back such huge debts after graduation. Why don't they all just inherit large sums from their relatives and pay the tuition bills with that money?
I would like to make a comment.
Sounds like what GW did to its law students back in the late-90s. Law school tuition was constantly rising and over 75% of it was going to pay for undergraduate programs. Three law students sued, and unfortunately lost.
32,
After submitting a comment it may take several minutes to appear.
Please remove comment 32. It makes no sense and is probably racist.
I am offended and appalled.
29,
These are interesting assertions-- any real insite or just your observation?
Any kind of pattern to the comments being removed? Or IP addresses blocked? They seem as nonsensical as ever -- perhaps even more so. Although the ones targeted at firms (Latham delenda est; Rogue Associate) are mercifully silent.
My thought was that the law firms have tumbled to the fact that they can put up network filters to block the site. Like Iran and China.
Or people have reached the conclusion that there's nothing more to see here. The ship has sunk and now its just of obscene Southern frat boy banter, crossing well over into racism.
29,
These are interesting assertions-- any real insite or just your observation?
Any kind of pattern to the comments being removed? Or IP addresses blocked? They seem as nonsensical as ever -- perhaps even more so. Although the ones targeted at firms (Latham delenda est; Rogue Associate) are mercifully silent.
My thought was that the law firms have tumbled to the fact that they can put up network filters to block the site. Like Iran and China.
Or people have reached the conclusion that there's nothing more to see here. The ship has sunk and now its just a bunch of obscene Southern frat boy banter, crossing well over into racism.
Does this mean they are blocking Partner Emeritus's numerous IP addresses located at his condo in Manhattan, the Trump estate in Palm Beach, and Versailles?
I don't know what you lawyers are complaining about. EVERYONE knows that graduating lawyers make at least 6-figures at their first job!
Moar Barerug
Gee, I wonder what percentage of that increased tuition is actually going back to the law school. I bet the university is going to cut the law school's budget in addition to the rate increase. Of course the ABA is OK with this kind of tactic....just as long as enough minority students are admitted...
38 = PE
Perhaps the new dean is behind the spike in cost. He wants to play the ranking game like all the other law schools by hiking cost, but then giving out more scholarships. Make room in the top 15, here come the Gophers.
"In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher.'"
Comment removed by moderator.
38 here
Wish I was PE
Moderator,
Please delete comment 36, I find its use of improper grammar offensive, and redundant of 37.
Thanks
36/37
36/37,
I've had two IP addresses banned from commenting. I had to sign on to a different network to write this comment and the previous one. Both times, I criticized ATL for inflating the economic crisis.
I wonder why they would ban me for that....
Albeit, I did say some mean things about Lat, which I now regret. I guess he takes things personally...
Sorry, Lat (kind of).
As I pound my secretary in her ass...at a medium pace...
uh oh, 29 has posted the impenetrable lose-lose gambit . . . will ATL take the bait? Keep refreshing to see whether ATL deletes 29, proving his point, or leaves it there, proving his point!
Har har har.
48,
Sorry to hear it -- ad hominem attacks are so rarely well received, that was probably the reason.
I don't think they are inflating the economic crisis, if anything they have missed most of the import of it. The best services this blog can do is to provide people with a heads up and USEFUL tips on how to mitigate and or avoid catastrophe.
Many of the more serious commentators on this blog were dead on and predicted much of what we are seeing now.
If they were serious about making money, they'd ban jokers like 49!! They are the ones who are killing this site in many ways. It's worth parsing through the dross though because there are a lot of helpful links posted on here by the commentators, and often by Kash.
I honestly think that the firms (who also scan this web site) suddenly tumbled to their ability to block it and took a lot of the better commentators off. That Bingham stuff last week had to have been a real eye opener. And clients (like me) read it, and learn a lot about firms from it.
This is possibly a way to game the rankings. UMN is 20th but has lower tuition than some of the closely ranked schools. So raising the tuition will not hurt the school in rankings. If they then give back the money as financial aid the proportion of students receiving aid will go up compared to the competition and the school's ranking should improve.
Personally I like it. Good students will get lots of aid to go to a higher ranked school. They will be supported by dumb trust fund kids that are looking for a way to spend grandpa's money while avoiding the workforce.
Even if the money is getting diverted to the University then the trust fund idiots will support science or poets or historians.
All of this assumes that you will not pay full price unless you have a trust fund and are an idiot. Maybe employers should look out for resumes that don't have a scholarship and avoid these people.
#51 - You sound fun. We should hang out.
53,
Well, the Masters, Final Four and US Open are all over. What did you have in mind? I'm booked for the London Olympics . . . .
51
I almost became part of the class of 2012 as i was accepted at a top 20 school, then started looking online at legal blogs (like ATL) just as the crap started hitting the fan. In three weeks I went from being excited to be going to law school to having wiped the possibility from my mind.
So, I wonder how law school admissions is going for law schools. They tightened up their standards because of the expected tidal wave of applicants due to the bad economy (trying to squeeze as much ranking as possible from those last minute LSAT takers in February). Now I expect law students that are smart enough to pay attention to the world around them instead of screwing around all summer will see the horrible market conditions and decline law school (like me). I am curious if there will be a domino effect in admissions, with higher-ranked law schools raiding people on their waiting lists currently going to lower ranked schools (forcing those schools to do the same). I keep waiting for a story to appear along these lines, or are students too oblivious to see the writing on the wall?
comments about bleached anuses, ass poundings, and shaved pussies don't usually get moderated. those that are midly critical of ATL usually do get moderated.
55,
I disagree with your apparent position that you are smarter than law students because you declined to attend and they did not. Just because a path is not paved in gold does not make it a stupid choice.
I do agree that you personally made a good decision by not attending. You most certainly would have been a gunner and we appreciate your absence.
Sincerely,
57
57,
Learn to read. I did not say that people that choose to attend school were stupid, but that they were not paying attention. You obviously do not agree to that, but do not mischaracterize what I said.
And my being a gunner, that's quite funny. I was about to leave a career (where I was getting bored) in which I make almost six figures in to do something new with my life and try to help people. However, with the market going to crap, the market is too flooded with people to be able to climb through the necessary early years to make it to the type of job I would want.
My decision is based on risk. I never wanted a BigLaw job, but the fall of those jobs screws everything up.
I wasn't making fun of people still going to school, although my post came out harsh, I agree. I honestly in my mind can't see a good scenario for law school right now, but I have in my head my own scenario and your scenario is different.
This could hurt Minnesota's rankings unless they shift some of the increased tuition towards scholarship money. I never could really figure out how they get students away from GW, BU and other peer schools unless that person REALLY wants to work in Minneapolis. It will be even harder now.
You can do well for yourself at Minnesota so long as you don't date the business school students or CEO's daughters. At least not the ones who will bleed you dry and then leave you for the local Morton's bartender.
Hey Elie, maybe some of that bat should be saved for you. Consider the following:
Higher tuition + lousy job prospects = fewer law students today.
Fewer law students today = fewer associates tomorrow.
Fewer associates tomorrow = fewer ATL readers tomorrow.
Fewer ATL readers tomorrow = less ATL staff needed.
Less ATL staff needed = YOUR SORRY BUTT GETS LAID OFF!
Now wrap that in some bacon and chew on it for a while.
http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=1021573&mc=15&forum_id=2
There's been some real hostility towards the law school for some time in the Minnesota legislature. Pawlenty, despite being a graduate of UMN Law, doesn't seem much interested in helping (presumably because he wants to appeal to people that think public education is a bad idea altogether - I'm serious when I say that is part of the reason). I'll never forget the legislator in Minnesota that actually came out and said he was sure all public funding was unnecessary for the entire University because he was near campus and saw some people he assumed to be college kids driving nice SUVs (ergo, since he saw some college student in an SUV, the entire student body must be rich). I kid you not. Some legislators are convinced everyone that graduates from law school is making it rain. Other legislators want to try and starve the beast because they hate lawyers and think they can effect tort reform this way. They are idiots. But the law school is defenseless because no one has the political courage to make the case for lawyers.
UMN 2L here...it sucks that the state has abandoned its premier education institution, the law school in particular. Personally I think all this "gaming the rankings" nonsense is ridiculous and not what the law school needs to be doing. Sure, we are a good school. But realistically, we're a good regional law school that churns out a lot of fine state lawyers and judges, and the occasional Fritz Mondale. You should go to Minnesota if you would like to practice in Minnesota. I feel sorry for all of the out-state tuition kids who showed up here because they couldn't get into a T14. These guys don't even like Minnesota...
MN grads get MN jobs.
64. MN Grads also get jobs in every other city in America. It's a top 20 school. As with most schools that aren't Harvard or Yale you have to do well (i.e. top 10 or at least 20%) in order to go work for top firms.
- MN Grad working for Am Law 50 firm in Chicago
52. You are obviously completely ignorant of the financial aid situation. Most students at U of M Law are neither independently wealthy nor on any kind of financial aid other than loans. I know for a fact that includes people in the top 10% of the class. After all, "merit" based financial aid is based primarily on undergrad performance, which is a highly imperfect predictor of law school performance.
This makes sense to me. Most undergrad students these days are majoring in worthless liberal arts disciplines that will give them a diploma that isn't worth a damn thing in the marketplace. Tuition costs should reflect the value of that sociology degree.
67,
No. Tuition costs should reflect the cost that the sociology program takes to run.
Hypo; If a student chooses a program that costs $5 to produce but is only worth $2 in education of marketable skills, why should they pay $2? They should pay at least $5. Hell, I say bleed the idiots in those programs dry. Let their stupidity subsidize the necessary but unmarketable programs like journalism.
As for the class 2012: I am a member of this class. I have wanted to be an attorney for a very long time, and am not going to change now. I have no presumptions of $100k salaries or saving the world. I (and many of my peers) have long been interested in the field and understand the sacrifices that will be involved. I chose a school that offered me a substantial scholarship and in state tuition while sacrificing USNews Rankings prestige. I will have about 1/3 of the debt my friends in higher ranked schools, better career opportunities due to regional advantages, and a lower cost of living. Yes, there are people entering in this class with the same moronic assumptions about the field as 99% of the posters on this site had, though we are not all as willfully blind as you were.
Let's see MN grads pay off that extra 15% with their full time public interest bullshit and chase of the next trendy afterthought in the law (big practice market for international human rights?)