At "Breaking Back Into a Large Law Firm," someone needs to ask John Cannon of Shearman & Sterling why he fired all of the firm's second-years and then hired first-years to replace them, and if he thought that was ethical, moral, or human.

At "Breaking Back Into a Large Law Firm," someone needs to ask John Cannon of Shearman & Sterling why he fired all of the firm's second-years and then hired first-years to replace them, and if he thought that was ethical, moral, or human.

The Big O will be cutting salaries

At "Breaking Back Into a Large Law Firm," someone needs to ask John Cannon of Shearman & Sterling why he fired all of the firm's second-years and then hired first-years to replace them, and if he thought that was ethical, moral, or human.

Thought IP was fine?

Fish. Scales.

I giggled a little bit.

What is going on with this ship?

Big Law is dead. Unless you have more then 5 years of practice and a book of buisness those laid off will not find another job in Big Law.

I have instructed my kind to except those that repent by July 15 for their elitist ways, to be accepted into the toileteer ranks were they will make their way like attorneys of yore –real work, reasonable hours and pay. This offer however will not last forever. For those unwise to persist in their elitist ways, come July 16, only the document review mines await you.

You must free yourselves of the slave mentality and choose wisely.

This is encouraging news as we draw closer to the end of the month. At that time, many peer and non-peer firms will realize that 2009 will be a nightmare year based on mid-annual operating and profit/loss statements. We have decided to cap offers to summer associates at 30%. We are still engaging in layoffs (based on performance of course) on a rolling basis. I suspect a peer firm will have to crack on the salary reduction issue by the end of the summer with massive layoffs following in September and October. Expect the cold offers to freeze and break into pieces and count on deferrals turning into indefinite ("we will call you when we are ready...") deferrals. Look on the bright side, Obama's economic policies have already galvanized our industry to correct itself by abandoning antiquated and idiotic recruitment and salary structures. This is change I can believe in.

fish scale? is that a reference to drug abuse. how could you make light of that?

How about dead weight partners getting a dose of meritocracy while we're at it?!

12--Hear Hear!!! Dead weight partners need to get the ax.

Deferred 3L here,

Wow. If F&R rescinded my offer and then offered me a contract position, I would tell them to shove it up their asses. I'd rather take my chances living with the parents and volunteering at the courthouse or shadowing a lawyer somewhere until the economy recovers.

I hope this firm goes up in flames for the absolutely DEPLORABLE treatment of their incoming associates.

1. avoided telling them anything until the very last minute
2. timing was excellent (right at graduation when we should be celebrating)(also right before bar classes start as if we werent stressed enough)
3. separated the class into 3rds with ZERO regard for summer performance (as far as i can tell its geographic, who you know, and the poor indicator of performance: grades)
4. now they may be offering contract positions? what an insult.

A lot of posters have been alluding to this lately...and it may not mean much now....but the classes of 08, 09, 10, 11, and many young associates will remember the firms that made moves like this. I know I will, and I will never, ever respect this firm.

I hope associates jump ship when the economy recovers and join IP depts at larger firms (or even smaller IP shops).

Partners are neither ethical nor human. They also do not have morals.

So no point in asking John Cannon something as obvious as this.

12--Hear Hear!!! Dead weight partners need to get the ax.

Didn't everyone say IP was doing great?

You're welcome, America. Hey, has history proven me to be a great President yet?

Here is a tip for summer associates if you want to be in the coveted "30% offer" category. Start pulling your hairs out of your head. Do not shave as this will be seen as a strategic and premeditated move. Pulling your hairs out of your head evinces that you are losing your hair as a result of all the brain cells you are burning working hard for the firm. Your premature baldness will be rewarded come August with an offer. This applies to women as well. If you have a full head of hair by the end of the summer, do not be surprised by a no offer.

Lol 12, if you don't like it, form your own law partnership so that you are in control of the business.

Who cares if you never, ever respect this firm. You're a nobody, plain and simple. Time for you losers to get used to the fact that you're just losers.

Deferred 3L:

With all due respect, it won't get any easier for you from hear on out. You have just gotten a small taste of what you are in for, no matter which firm you go with. Reality is, BigLaw is a tough place to work. Good luck to you and hope everything works out.

How's this for compensation meritocracy: Work at a meritless firm like Fish & Richardson and get paid accordingly

If IP is dying, there's no hope.

True 4. However I think it will likely be more of a roll back. 145 for first years. 160 for second years, etc.

21,

Yeah, now. Maybe we are losers now. Maybe we wont be in the future. Maybe we'll be winners.

Btw, who the fuck are you?

@ 24: where are all the IP trolls now?

Bryan caves.

Fish scales.

QUINN REMAINS.

14

Sorry about your tiny pink no offer letter, bro.

Anybody know of any particular IP boutiques or law firms that are doing well at this time?

Anybody know of any particular tax boutiques or law firms that are doing well at this time?!

#1,2,3 & 5 --

Your comment represents a complete lack of understanding regarding the legal profession. The goal of law firms is to generate as much profit for the partners as possible, just like an investment bank or hedge fund. During times of economic peril, these types of entities will resort to extreme measures to maintain profits, including laying people off.

People who enter the business field understand this, why can't lawyers?

Even more shocking is that you can't seem to accept that your decisions led to your present situation. As someone who (presumably) worked for Sherman, it is my guess that you probably had the opportunity to pursue legal work in other sectors, such as the government. While the public sector does not provide as much income potential, it does provide more security and stability. However, you choose to work for a big law firm, proabably because you could make more money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you made a bad decision; but you made a decision nonetheless. And as with most things in life, you must accept the good and the bad. The bad side of taking a big law firm job is the potential of layoffs should the economy or the firm's practice sour.

My advice is to get over the fact that you got laid off and be thankful that you had the opportunity to work for such a great firm for a year, hopefully you were wise enough to save money. In the mean time, focus your energies on finding a new position instead of playing the victim card.

Anybody know of any particular regulatory affairs boutiques or law firms that are doing well at this time?!

IP is better than most practice areas, but still hurting bad.

Also, Fish has other practice areas. They have a pretty large corporate department which is likely where the ax has been falling. People think this is an IP boutique, but it's really not.

IP revenues are certainly down, but most are still making money (just not as much as previously) unlike real estate and corporate departments which are deep in the red.

You people need to get the message. You junior associates who have no real accomplishments to speak of other than your LSAT scores are not "elite". You are nothing more than fungible, interchangeable, expendable cannon fodder. The partners you work for are the "elite", at least within the legal profession, and they don't owe you a six-figure salary. In fact, they don't owe you a damn thing.

And for the precious few of you who will make partner, remember this: you will never make as much money as the companies and high-ranking executives you represent.

FIsh & Richardson will not recover from these moves when things pick up. They simply will not get top IP people out of law school anymore. They'll get good or mediocre IP people, but not the top. The top IP people will go to firms that treated associates and 3Ls with decency.

Not to mention the hemorrhaging of talented associates that will take place when the economy recovers.

Great moves, guys.

I WILL POUND THEIR ARSE!!!!!!

I hear that the Dharma Institute is hiring but the commute underwater is a long bitch.

ive heard the corporate practice is actually doing pretty well... theyre keeping the rest of the place afloat

ive heard the corporate practice is actually doing pretty well... theyre keeping the rest of the place afloat

ive heard the corporate practice is actually doing pretty well... theyre keeping the rest of the place afloat

Change has arrived for a few more biglaw associates. My stimulus plan is working just like Rahm and Larry told me it would.

I'm Barack Obama?

38 = an other. Don't believe him. You will be sorry.

Sincerely,

Jack

How's the corporate practice doing? Are they keeping the place afloat?

If firms just hold the freeze another year, they will largely accomplish the same end result as a cut, except for first and second years. Next year third years would still be making $160k, fourth would be $170k, and fifth would be $185k. It will cost them some more to hold the freeze rather than cut now, but holding the freeze looks better for marketing purposes.

4, 25-- I think this is where we might go.

17 - IP is doing great. Fish may even be doing great. But they're not going to pass up an opportunity to to cut salaries when everybody else is doing it.

#1,2,3,5

Your comment represents a complete misunderstanding of the legal profession. Big law firms are entities geared towards generating as much profit as possible for partners, just like an investment bank or hedge fund. When the economy goes south, these entities resort to extreme measures to maintain profits, including laying people off.

People who enter into the business world accept this, why can't lawyers?

What is even more shocking is that you seem incapable of grasping the fact that your decision led to your current situation. As someone who (presumably) worked for Sherman, I'm guessing that you probably had the opportunity to pursue legal work in other sectors upon graduation, such as government work. While the public sector does not offer the same income potential, it does offer better security and stability. However, you choose to work for a big law firm, probably because you wanted to make more money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you made a bad decision, but you made a decision nonetheless. And as with most things in life, you must accept the bad with the good. The bad aspect of big law jobs is the possibility of being laid off should the law firm's business or the economy sour.

My advice is to get over the fact that you were laid off and move on. Hopefully you were wise enough to save some money, and try your hardest to get a new position. Once you do, take full advantage of that opportunity.

"Is it nationwide salary cut day and nobody told me? "

I believe the 11th of June has always been Nationwide Salary Cut day, although it's one of those "non-holidays" like "Flag Day" or "Memorial Day".

Kicked to the curb, then asked back as a contract attorney? That is a level of betrayal only felt when, for instance, they cancel your favorite television show. I know if I was one of the poor schlups cut loose, I would feel like it was 1986 all over again—the year they canceled Hardcastle and McCormick.

47

Sorry about your tiny pink layoff notice, bro. You may not have it now, but it's certainly forthcoming. Partners don't like ass-kissers.

46 = troll

49

They cancelled the show because of allegations of impropriety involving the judge and because the ex-convict had a habit of showing off his skidmarks in the mistaken impression that he was showing off his racing skills.

All in all, 1986 was a good year.

I have but one client: the United States of America. Although she aint paying $200K, she's also not laying me off.

Fish and Richardson's ass-raping of its incoming associates is 6th on its Google hit list. If you ever recruit on law campuses again, have fun dealing with that.

A lot of law firms are doing lay offs, but I can't think of another firm where its lay off shit-storm is near the top when you Google its name. It was as high as 4th a couple weeks ago when you typed in Fish and Richardson.

i heard the same thing about corporate

Hardcastle & McCormick guy, I just want you to know that your schtick is appreciated. I even looked the show up on Wikipedia just to find out how real it is. Turns out, very real.

~A fan

50, 47 here.

Actually, I won't be gettinga pink slip. I have a nice goverment job that pays pretty well, provides great benefits, and we have plenty of work. And oh yeah, the work is fun and enjoyable.

I'm not defending partners, I'm just telling it like it is. I left big law for the exact reason I stated, and haven't regreated my decision one bit.

What kind of loser could possibly find being a government lawyer fun and enjoyable.

Most layoffs are in the corp department. And for those who got cut, the reason was because they didnt know who to ask for work. Majority of folks were so busy that they couldnt have time to answer all of the requests in time to help them meet their goal.

Also, there are plenty of work going around at Fish. Fish is doing cost cutting measures not because the firm is doing terrible financially (check the PPP), but because every firm is doing it. This is a time where Fish can boost its income to a higher level. Who wouldnt do that?

There are layoffs GOING ON RIGHT NOW in Venable.

I go to a T20 law school. The reputation of F&R among my classmates has nose-dived faster than that of any other firm. This is based solely on what they did to their incoming class.

Now they may offer contract positions?? What an outrageous insult. I'm not saying that contract positions are beneath me or anyone for that matter...but to rescind an offer and shatter the hopes and dreams of a law student to whom you promised employment ONE DAY AFTER GRADUATION...and then to have the NERVE to think that that person would even CONSIDER WORKING FOR THE FIRM IN ANY CAPACITY. Wow.

And I'm just at a T20. Imagine what their reputation is among T14 and T10 schools....

Good luck recruiting when the economy picks up.

I wonder where that Fish has gone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK0cUv3ba-o

Sound services (even if rendered by associates) warrant sound price. Else . . .

All of the other firms will follow suit. Just you wait.

There are layoffs GOING RIGHT NOW in SkaddenDC.

Doors are closed. People are weeping quietly and others are walking around with blank faces. A truly scary day.

61 - Fish never said that it would offer contract positions to the people that they deferred, only that they would be hiring more contract attorneys.

58 is an idiot. Government attorneys make less money than BigLaw on an annual basis, but I make more now per hour spent working than I did when I was in BigLaw.

Basically, I work 67% as many hours for 90% as much pay (I include my student loan repayment and the fact that my health benefits cost half as much in arriving at the 90% figure).

I have more responsiblity, more strategic control over matters, and what I do is important enough that I never deal with BigLaw associates, only the partners (a depressing % of whom are quite incompetent attorneys).

I'm only in my office from 7:30 until 4, and I use 100% of my vacation EVERY year.

That's the kind of person that enjoys working as an attorney for the federal government.

That's also why all of our job postings are swamped with BigLaw resumes.

Also sick of BigLaw? Go to www.usajobs.gov

66,

I've heard through others that the laid off incoming first-years have been asked if they're interested in contract work.

61

65

Pics, link, or STFU.

Fish recently froze partner hiring because, apparently, managing partners of various offices (Atlanta, for example) were handing out high six-figure and seven-figure partnerships to lateral partners like candy. Surprise surprise, Fish is no longer as profitable, and they respond by firing or otherwise abusing associates.

Smells like Fish.

Contract work? Sign me up!

~Bitter Ex-Latham First Year

68 - If that's true, that is pretty messed up. I haven't heard this, but my sources may not be as good as yours.

www.opm.gov

Every year federal government attorneys get a nice raise as well as an upward pay adjustment to reflect inflation.

BigLaw - pay freezes, pay cuts, layoffs.

Uncle Sam - raises, job security, higher quality work assignments, more responsibility

BigLaw always seems to think that it is only competing with itself for talent...

Like it, 70.

Can "Smells like Fish" be the new slogan for when law firms shit on associates or law students?

I think that would work...

67 - very true! Since I left BigLaw, I work way less hours for slightly less pay.

I'm as happy as I've been in years.

I can only be fired for cause, my employer will never close for business, and (since I'm at a large $ agency) the matters I'm handling are larger and more prestigious deals than at my former AmLaw100 firm.

www.usajobs.gov FTW!

18 -

Get your own shtick.
This one's taken.
Don't mess with Texas!

The ship be sinking...

Looks like Elie jumped the gun on this report...I imagine his "source" is some overly sensitive, self-entitled SA brat.

Looks like Elie jumped the gun on this report...I imagine his "source" is some overly sensitive, self-entitled SA brat.

67 is right on target. At our agency, we have enormous autonomy and wonderfully interesting work. I run my own investigations with management support, not interference. We have a very high percentage of ex-BigLaw attorneys and very low turnover. I'm on a 4x10 work schedule so every weekend is a three day weekend and I am normally able to work one or two day per week from home. The government subsidizes my commutting expenses [$110/mo] and paid off a large chunk of student loans. Add four weeks vacation and 13 days sick leave per year. As for compensation, it is not BigLaw scale, but at my agency we are not on the GS pay scale and I'm at just over $140k base pay - that is MUCH more per hour than many a private sector attorney; which allows me to have a full life away from work. I don't see how you can beat working for the fed govt if you have or want to have kids/family and spend a lot of time to them. Our agency has seen a flood of interest to every vacancy in recent months and, since our budget will be increased dramatically over the next 18 months or so, we expect that to continue. So please consider applying and best of luck to everyone looking for work.

76 is right. First come, first served.

There's no law against schtick theft, but it's a douchey and unoriginal move.

The GWB posts have been pretty good, though. I hope you'll make a new character for our ATL enjoyment.

80

What agency is that? SEC?

80,

I'm sold. As a deferred 3L, I admit that I know nothing about these firms. However, I still feel fairly confident that the majority of associates are miserable and pissed off with how they are treated. If I do end up starting at the firm that deferred my employment, government work will be on my radar for when things turn around. Also, I dont know how many years I can go without getting real legal experience...If I haven't done a deposition within four years of graduating law school...I'll leave Biglaw anyway. Otherwise, it's just time I'm not going to get back. Like taking a dump without a magazine.

83, you have it wrong (or at least have it backwards).

My advice is to get into the government ASAP and never leave until you get your retirement benefits.

At the very least, you hide in the government while times are bad enjoying the job security and pay raises and gaining experience, then you jump ship to go to private practice when things turn around and BigLaw is throwing around money again.

The way you suggested has it backwards.

-67

76, you're a handsome feller, I'll give you that. Funny you mention shticks. Barney and I clear out a lot of shticks workin on brush at the ranch. Guess I'll head back there. Just keep an eye on history for me, will ya, and let me know when it proves me to be a great President, ok?

Let freedom reign,
GWB

The students claiming Fish should fear getting a "bad rep" among law students crack me up. You kids have no guts, no spine. If you did, you wouldn't be killing yourselves to get a job in a V20 where, guess what, you will be killing yourselves to get the fat paycheck. Come next OCI those who can go Cravath will. Those who can go Latham will. And those who can go Fish will, and will be happy for the opportunity, not to mention slobbering all over the partners they claimed to despise on ABL

67, true but I have to wait out this deferral thing. I got a stipend till January and I'm volunteering until then. I'm still hoping the firm will make good on its promise. If it does, then I'll make good on mine and work my ass off for the firm. But, when it comes time to gain real legal experience and/or start a family, government work is looking very attractive.

83

86,

Yeah, in this economy. Don't be so short-sighted.

86

Get a job with Cravath, Latham, and Fish, and so forth.

Get laid off in six months or less.

See how that works?

Dumbass.

There are IP firms that are not sucking quite so much gas as F&R. I have no idea why anyone would choose Fish over basically ANY other IP biglaw firm. The shittacular quality of life at Fish is reason enough to override any geographical benefits working at Fish might afford you.

Don't fool yourself into believing that the Federal Government never lays off attorneys. For example, in 2002, the Patent Office pink slipped dozens of Trademark Attorneys due to slow economy.

89-
I see how it works, and yet at the next OCI people will be climbing in through the windows to interview with these firms, including the ones with the dreaded "bad reputation among law students." Even at the very real risk of continued lay-offs. So I'm not sure what your point was.
88- Your point is valid, but only if Big Law returns to 1990's boom times. Many think that simply won't happen.

I have ordered my new pay czar to do a top-down stress test of the legal industry to determine whether associate salaries should be lowered even further.

I'm Barack Obama?

Attorneys, and recent law grads, will always be lured to big law by the promise of making a lot of money. And there is nothing wrong with that.

The problem comes when these attorneys cry *victim* after being laid off, and are surprised that law firms don't value loyalty over PPP. Please don't be so naive, as a young attorney in a big law firm, your value to the firm stems from the firm's bottom line.

Welcome to the world of business. If you don't like it, seek work in the public sector.

83,

Remember, there's no reason for us to be any more loyal to BigLaw than it is to us.

Employment at will is a 2 way street. No need to keep your powder dry during your deferment.

Therefore, begin applying for government jobs now and keep applying on a regular basis.

If it turns out your firm won't let you start, then you are ahead of the game on your gov't job search.

If your firm does let you start, you like it, and you don't find a better gov't job, then no harm to you.

If your firm lets you start, you hate it, and/or you find a government job you like better, then quit to take the government job (even if you get that good gov't offer after only being at the firm for 5 minutes).

Remember, human beings like you and I make promises. BigLaw makes business decisions. They will defer your date, withdraw your offer, or lay you off if it is in their interests at any point.

Show them the loyalty they deserve. As long as you're somewhat careful, they won't know you looked elsewhere unless you end up leaving, at which point you won't care.

Plus, as a last point, getting hired by the government is a slow process often times taking several months. So, even if you start applying now you would likely know your deferral status by the time you would receive an offer.

Good job on getting all your ducks in a row all the way through January! Sounds like you are definitely on top of things in difficult times.

-67

Attorneys, and recent law grads, will always be lured to big law by the promise of making a lot of money. And there is nothing wrong with that.

The problem comes when these attorneys cry *victim* after being laid off, and are surprised that law firms don't value loyalty over PPP. Please don't be so naive, as a young attorney in a big law firm, your value to the firm stems from the firm's bottom line.

Welcome to the world of business. If you don't like it, seek work in the public sector.

92

No. Actually, if you do find firms at OCIs, they'll be going through the motions for the most part.

Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.

95, you make it sound like associates used to be loyal to firms. That's funny. Remember when 20% would leave every year for other jobs? Or the associates who explicitly say they're quitting law as soon as they pay off their loans? The only reason the number is closer to zero this year is because there are no other jobs, not because associates don't want to leave.

91,

Government employees who have been with the government for at least 3 years are no longer subject to downsizing (known as a RIF - reduction in force).

Besides, one of Obama's major priorities is improving our federal agencies and their capabilities after Bush gutted them.

The odds of the federal government doing a RIF in the next 3 years? Basically zero.

The odds of it happening in the next 7 years? Pretty low (especially if the Republicans can't come up with a credible candidate for 2012).

Thus, it should be pretty easy for people to dodge a RIF for the next 3 years.

Lastly, any government employee that gets RIF'ed gets priority consideration/preference for other government jobs for the next 12 months after the RIF.

Conclusion - nowhere offers 100% job security, but the federal gov't is darn close.

Would love to tell you guys more about the wonders of working for the federal gov't, but it is 5:00 so I am going home.

WOW. What an unmitigated cluster f*ck of idiots talking out of their arses (see above). Let me guess - most of you do not now, have not ever and probably couldn't hack working for Fish. Perhaps if you had put "talking out of your arse" as a skill on your rezzie, you might have had a shot. STFU about things you a) know nothing about and/or b) "heard from a guy who heard from a guy". Junior-leaguers....

ah yeah. I'm 10 years out and just joined the Feds. Its awesome. Find any agency, any job, any pay level. Just GET IN. Once you are in, you're in. Its easy to change agencies.

ah yeah. I'm 10 years out and just joined the Feds. Its awesome. Find any agency, any job, any pay level. Just GET IN. Once you are in, you're in. Its easy to change agencies.

BRYAN CAVES

FISH SCALES

QUINN- WTF 28!?!

101-102 - do you HAVE to live in DC to get a decent gov't job? I hate DC and would rather live somewhere else in the east coast.

18/85 -

Enjoy your (our) retirement. You (we) will be vindicated in due (dew, do) time.

Dubya

100,

"Perhaps if you had put "talking out of your arse" as a skill on your rezzie, you might have had a shot [to work at F&R]."

Quite possibly the lamest ATL comment of the year.

We are talking about F&R's REPUTATION. By definition, what we hear from other people or from a guy who knew a guy or from your mother is fair game.

You STFU, ass-clown.

Legal recruiter here - law students - become nuclear licensing attorneys. There are not many of them, and there are going to be lots of jobs in the near future and beyond. I've been trying to fill a good in-house job for months. Apply for the NRC Honors program. http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/employment/honor-law.html

82 ==> yes, the SEC.

I agree with 101/102 - get in anywhere you can and go from there to any agency that is a better fit for you. That will likely take time, but my sense is that many agencies prefer to hire transfers.

104 ==> the SEC's headquarters office is its largest and has the most openings and turnover. However, our second largest office is in NYC [where govt salary doesn't go nearly as far], Boston, Miami, and Philadelphia on the East Coast; plus, Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake [tiny office], San Francisco, and Los Angeles.

But don't limit yourself, there are dozens of govt agencies all over the country that employ attorneys. Good luck!

So 61, if you get only one offer and it is from Fish, you will decline? My guess is that you wouldn't be such a big talker in that circumstance. Now run along to class while BigLaw crumbles and your loan balances mount.

Before I get started, please no flames. I have never left a message at this site before and am only here because I am scared and don't know what to do. I found this site by googling Quinn Emmanuel and while it looks like this is a legal message board, I am not a lawyer. About four weeks ago I started having serious pain and bleeding from my rectum and went to see my family physician. After a colonoscopy he informed me that I had many parasitic organisms attached to the lining of my colon. He was able to remove many of these organisms which he said were referred to colloquially as "lobsters", but one was to far up inside me and he could not remove it with his tools. So to sum up my problems, I am having serious pain, my doctor (granted he is OTB) has been able to remove most of the asslobters, but this one type called Quinn remains really far up my ass. If anyone can help I would be willing to offer a job at my fathers gas station in rural-Idaho. He does not like people who work with fish though, so no one on this thread need apply (he said they smell like shit - granted he to is not a lawyer and is also OTB). Thanks for your help.

110- Too long, didn't read

52

Hardcastle and McCormick was cancelled because it was “at the top of its game” so to say. It is always better to go out on a high note than to wallow in creeping mediocrity, always wishing to recapture the magic of the past. At the time Hardcastle and McCormick was cancelled, I felt betrayed. Now, looking back, I see the wisdom of the show’s producers’ decision. Maybe there is a lesson in this for the associates cut loose from Fish & Richardson too.

to 104 - Nope. I live in NJ, but it is obviously easier to land a job in DC. Like I said you can always xfer w/i your agency or to another. In this environment do what you have to do.

Us government lawyers very rarely get involuntary salary cuts. I think the reason for this is mostly that we're very efficient in the federal government. I had a conversation about this with an FBI agent friend of mine in the cafeteria this morning. We spent an entire hour just sitting there, talking about how the government gets a bad rap, but how we're really part of a go-get-em, take no prisoners machine of efficiency.

Incidentally, I was speaking with this Special Agent because he's been holding onto an investigation that was supposed to be on my desk about two months ago. He's waiting for a victim to fax him some financial information he needs before he can write up the report. He says he hasn't contact said fed victim in a few weeks, but this is evidence of the efficiency of the government. We want things to be thorough and done right.

The private sector could learn a lot from us.

Remember when my party took control of goverment spending (Congress) in 2006!

We've been on a spending spree ever since. In fact, this year with the help of only 3 enlightened Republicans, I was able to QUADRUPLE the debt!

Wait until I start the money printing presses - our currency will be on par with Zimbabwe's!!

Now that's CHANGE!

Knock off the shit about how junior *biglaw* attorneys knowingly took a substantial risk by entering private practice over gov't work/public interest. Biglaw has NEVER, EVER, EVER had anything approaching the layoffs that have occurred in the past year, and biglaw was always a conservative choice, where the salary was good, but not huge, and the exit options plentiful. It was a great, conservative career choice for the better law students, who by-and-large are not risk takers, just the opposite. It's not like being a biglaw associate was a speculative enterprise that offerred an amazingly huge and unbelieveable upside in exchange for virtually no hard work. Quite the opposite, in fact.

109 - The only people who will work at Fish in the future are those with no other options. This includes the current associates who will leave as soon as possible. Preferably they will leave with your clients.

It is remarkable to me how many people post without absolutely any insight into what is going on at Fish or any other firm. As to the folks who had their offers rescinded at Fish, does anyone really think such a decision could be made "better?" Of course people are disappointed. But all this raving about Fish not being able to recruit top people is just silly. The people who are starting in the Fall are the cream of the crop, or at least perceived that way by the firm. The clerks who will be hired out of this year's summer class will be the same way. Fact is, like most firm, Fish overhired over the boom years, had very little attrition, and now that things have slowed down considerably, there is a need for layoffs and cutting back of hiring. Most every other firm in the country is facing the same issues. Whining about your situation on this board accomplishes nothing. And "threats" to the firm and how you will view them in the future sound petty in the extreme. This is a tough time to be a lawyer in a national firm and Fish is doing better than most at weathering the storm.

In 1999, fish was paying $80k signing bonuses for lateral IP lawyers. How times have changed.

A Fish rots from the head down. That's also true of F&R's business model.

Let's face it. Firms like Fish should not have gone from 125 to 160 back in 2007. This is just scaling back what should never have happened. Too bad they had to shed some of their talented attorneys before they figured that out.

Meritorious performance? What does that mean? Meritorious performance has always been associated to hours. What does it mean now? Winning?

Meritorious performance? What does that mean? Meritorious performance has always been associated to hours. What does it mean now? Winning?

To say that Fish is weathering the storm better than other firms flies in the face of fact.

Fish had a legal staff of around 450 before its layoffs, and it laid off more than 80 lawyers. The percentage of lawyers laid (nearly 20%) is the highest of any firm I am aware of. Same goes with the layoffs of its support staff. The equivalent percentages at the megafirms (2000+ lawyers) would be 400+ lawyers.

To the contrary, Fish has been one of the hardest hit firms (at least it hasn't gone bankrupt like Heller, right?)

118 - To say that Fish is weathering the storm better than other firms flies in the face of fact.

Fish had a legal staff of around 450 before its layoffs, and it laid off more than 80 lawyers. The percentage of lawyers laid (nearly 20%) is the highest of any firm I am aware of. Same goes with the layoffs of its support staff. The equivalent percentages at the megafirms (2000+ lawyers) would be 400+ lawyers.

To the contrary, Fish has been one of the hardest hit firms (at least it hasn't gone bankrupt like Heller, right?)

How about other IP shops. For the 800th time Elie, can we have a post about how the IP shops are weathering the economic storm?

It's a legitimate request, many IP lawyers who read this blog, and it's supposed to be an area that is weathering the economic storm well.

Have the dissolutions of other IP shops and GP firms not really recruiting IP helped or hurt the IP boutiques? Have they gotten a lot of the business of Morgan & Finnegan? (someone had to take over much of their work). Any GP firms expanding their IP practices in this economy?

THANKS.

I hate this site, 30 posts a week about pointless shit, 3 or 4 just promoting Lat, nothing but emails of depressing shit (layoffs, salary reductions,etc) yet nothing about anything substantive (like polls by specific practice area, etc)

126 has a good idea. IP lawyers asked for this when Fish laid people off a few weeks ago. yet, nothing!! Fuck you ATL! I'm done with you.

Bitter lawyer is at least funny.

To the govt douche(s) who is posting how great govt jobs are, fuck you.

I had worked my way up from a GS 9 to a GS 13, when I left. I didn't need three years of grad school to make more than the lawyers in my division. I managed to do it with a 4-year science degree. So if you are saying govt work is great, you fucked up a 4-year degree is enough.

Why don't you be honest and talk about OMB A-76. For those who don't know A-76 is a directive to hold public-private competitions for federal work. Every year, you are basically competing to keep your job, except well it isn't you competing is some less-than competent manager several layers above you that better run the place efficiently.

Sound weirdly familiar to everyone at a law firm?

My old division was more expensive than having a private contractor do the job. We were offered jobs elsewhere. Since mine was 1000 miles away in a town of 25,000 people, I passed and went to law school.

The economy will get better. This is a dose of reality that we all needed.

Concur with 126, more IP coverage, please.

ha...all you douche really dont know what is going in with Fish. You only speculate. The remaining ones are the best and brightest at Fish. Cutting out the bad ones now help them in the long run than having to wait till their 5th year to tell them that they are not partner-eligible. They are still an IP powerhouse, and anyone who says other wise is really clueless about the fear that Fish imposes on other firms when it comes to IP litigation.

Wow.

The entire economy is in the dumps. One firm (Fish) is open and transparent enough to publicly discuss the issue and their reaction to it.

Information is power. When the firm management shares information, they are sharing that power.

There aren't postings about other IP firms because other IP firms have so little respect for their associates that there are no firm-wide pronouncements.

Kudos to Fish for treating their associates like adults.

118 -- Not everybody has had cuts that are as deep as Fish. To claim that employers that have had particularly harsh lay-offs and salary adjustments will face no consequences as a result of their rather apparent failures is a facile statement made by someone who is not well-informed. The markets will turn in the next year or so, and people will remember what happened. Setting aside law student and associate perceptions, these developments do not reflect well on partners, either those thinking about fleeing or coming to the place.

132 - Really? You think the unemployed aren't going to swallow their pride and resentment so they can get back in the saddle making big bucks so they can then start to swallow the other perks again?

You'se quite da dipshit.

59--

Troll. You can't believe anybody on this board is buying that bullshit. "They didn't know who to ASK for work...We're SO busy!...etc., etc."

Listen, perk up your fucking ears and get this through you thick fucking skull:

Busy firms do not need their associates to go around asking for work...got that? You see, if the firm has work, it needs all of the hands it can get to do the work. That is how firms got over-levered in the first place. That is why this craptacular firm engaged in layoffs earlier this year. It was not because of all of the work that they have; rather, it was because of the severe and prolonged lack of work.

Cutting associates and staff and then cutting salaries. PE was right: Hybrid tough love is more contagious than the swine influenza. This firm is holding on for dear life as it's few rainmakers look to jump ship.

As for PPP: First, that was last year. Second, collections this year are probably in the shitter. Thus, all of the cuts. Your excuse that they're seeking cover to line their pockets is a bullshit move to take people's eyes off the ball. This firm is hurting...badly. No way to disguise that once you start cutting salaries.

HTH

Also, an IP thread could include is the USPTO hiring in this time. Although you don't need to be a lawyer to work in the patent office, it does pay around 80K starting salary. If biglaw lays me off, I would consider it. Thxs.

134 ---

No I will not make out with you. We've got 59 talking about borophyl and here you are going on about skull fucking

Why do lawyers think they are immune to typical business decisions in an economic downturn? I suppose it's because law firms are so poorly run to begin with...

However, the ego surrounding your comments is palpable! JESUS!

When business needs (true or perceived) outweigh people needs, BUSINESS WINS! Do you not open your eyes and see what you CLIENTS do when there is a merger, sale, purchase, low sales, change in product demand?

And why did you think the partners/leadership that you gripe about - the same people that treat you like crap day-to-day - are going to look out for your best interest in the long run? Open your eyes to the shark infested pool you dove into!

The legal market has not only lost business, it is suffering from a rate adjustment - just like the housing market, just like every other profession! With biglaw setting a trend to cut salaries, boutiques are going to follow suit whether they need to or not... they have to cut their RATES to be competitive, why do you think they will continue to pay YOU more than you are worth????

Spend some time in M&A, or Bankruptcy, or take this time to go get your MBA, maybe you'll get it then...

134- as the post notes, there was no cutting of salaries. They said they would take a look at salaries during the next cycle, but not this one.

116m 47 here --

Please stop fooling yourself. Entering biglaw was not a conversative decision. It was a choice that had both an upside and a downside, like every other major life decision. While perhaps the risk of entering a big law firm was not the same as joining a start-up business, there was still some risk that the firm might fail (e.g. Altheimer & Gray).

The point of my earlier post was not that recent graduates who entered big law were taking a huge risk. Rather, my point was that they made a decision to pursue legal work in the private sector, and by doing so, subjected themselves to a greater risk of losing their job in the event of an economic recession.

Again, it may not have been a bad decision at the time, but it was a decision that had consequences. And to hear attorneys now being shocked by the reality that our profession is like any other business simply amazes me. Thankfully, lawyers can pursue work in more stable sectors (such as the government) if they so chose, at the expense of less income potential.

One final point -- your contention that law firms are not speculative enterprises is meritless. How many investment bankers who joined Lehman 5 years ago thought that enterprise was speculative?

Grow up, and please start to understand how the real world works. Law firms are subject to the economy just like any other business.

128 -

Congrats on spending your career starting as a GS-9 and toiling away to top out at GS-13.

Government attorneys are often (depending somewhat on agency/position) hired as a GS-13, we almost always make GS-14, and we're competitive candidates for GS-15 slots.

Sorry to hear your agency was inefficient and your job got scrapped. Try not to be so bitter.

Fortunately, government attorneys don't have the A-76 issue in the first place b/c contractors can't provide legal services to the government.

I guess that'd just be another example of why our law degree is better than your 4 year degree. Our government careers start where yours tops out, and we're not easily replaced by contractors.

139,

67 here, and I agree. Lots of us saw the writing on the wall at BigLaw and we got out ahead of the curve.

Others were unable/unwilling to appropriately gauge their risk, like 116, and they got burned.

I love how people like 116 think that it is a "conservative choice" to work someplace that averages almost 20% associate turnover each year (which BigLaw firms do) and where only a small percentage of associates make partner.

We can see how that worked out for 116.

Haha, 116 apparently thinks not being able to see your risk is the same as not having any.

124:

Really? 20% of lawyers got laid at F&R? The IS way more than at other firms, where most lawyers have a hard time getting laid.

I guess you have to take into consideration that you are only getting laid by a fish...

From somone in the know, I predict that Fish will not weather this storm. The F&R rainmakers will soon be at full-service firms like Foley & Lardner.

Dear 144:

your prediction is as useful as the anus on your hand that pooped it out.

1. Lots of Fish partners with nothing to do are reading this. I think that is funny. More than other firms I know these guys seem to get really rattled when there is an anonymous internet suggestion that they suck. At my firm the partners seem to be totally above commenting on or paying attention to ATL.

2. I know some associates who are still there. They hate the people they work for right now.

3. I would like to know exactly how many successful small patent shops have been started by former Fish lawyers. That firm is a training ground for their own competition. I predict that this will become even more of a problem for Fish as the culture of the firm suffers and associates get brave enough to try and go it alone.

144 and others: you know, being a HATER is lame. You don't work for Fish, so seriously, STFU and GBTW. Maybe you too can make the cut next time the shit hammer swings. Probably not though...

hate the game, not the player, son.

I don't understand why Fish is hurting to bad, yet Finnegan seems to be doing OK. Finnegan has deferred incoming associates to only November, and hasn't announced any layoffs or salary cuts. Yet, both Fish and Finnegan are IP shops - what gives?

148: What gives is two fold.

(1) Fish hired like Mad over the last couple of years to fuel heavy patent lit demand. They followed the Cravath model of high leverage = high profits. I suspect Finnegan hired a bit more conservatively as it doesn't handle the volume of patent lit.

(2) One of Fish's biggest clients, fueling many concurrently active cases, settled all of them at once late last year.

Combine (1) and (2) you get a good old fashioned shit storm. Then add in the context of all work dropping off at the end of last year and... there you go.

I realize I'm late to the party here, but I just wanted to say that the Fish puns in the headlines kill me every time. Good work, Elie.

Dear 130 (current Fish employee),

As the grammar – let’s face it, even the basic spelling – in your comment demonstrates, that just isn’t the case.

Expect more layoffs. That's all I can say.

As someone who is wondering whether my Oct. 2010 start date holds any water, posts like this last one (combined with rumors and gossip about changing the core firm structure and key partners preparing to jump ship) make me wonder whether I should be looking for something else. It amazes me how different the Fish atmosphere is a mere 10 months after I gleefully accepted their offer of employment.

I know this thread is all but dead, but for anyone who happens to read this and who has an informed opinion: Should I trust Fish's Oct. 2010 start date, or should I seek other opportunities to avoid an inevitable rescission of my offer?

153:
The purpose of 152's comment was probably to make you and others in your position feel that way. At the same time, though, if you are posting on here to find out the answer to your question... you probably already know it.