I don't buy this. I know tons of small and mid-size firms that are laying off attorneys and in trouble.

Thanks for the info, David.

Is there someone living in in Flint, Michigan who will exchange their $18,000 house for my worthless JD? I will even take over the payments from your inflated mortgage. My piece of paper does not even provide shelter for my skinny ass. In exchange you could be a practicing attorney doing work that a trained chimpanzee could perform.

Many top Biglaw firms - recent examples include Boies Schiller and Quinn Emanuel - started off as small firms.

Number 5...really? I thought law firms grew on trees...dumbass

During the dotcom bubble burst there was lots of press about mid-size firms thriving during a down turn. When the market rebounded, the best associates at those firms flocked in droves to big law. While mid-size firms may provide better stability during this down turn, big law will always provide better compensation, more sophisticated work and prestige.

The real question is who is going to shell out $15 to attend the Santa Clara Law Career Services presentation. Only $10 for Santa Clara grads 2007 and back and free for Santa Clara 2008 and later.

I will see you there, assuming I can borrow the $15 and have been kidnapped, false imprisoned and battered, and I am technically insane under M'Naughten's Rule only, since I highly doubt I will be unable to control my actions under other theories.

Thanks for the plug, Lat. Please accept this IOU for $100.

- CardScan

7-

and more hours, stress, and job insecurity, not to mention miniscule chances at making partner.

Lat, why are you posting at 11:50? Do you sleep?

30+ attorneys in the firm. partner in 5 years and i have a life outside the office. beats getting laid off from biglaw.

What about PRESTIGE?

I was in BigLaw. I went into SmallLaw. Our PPP is >$5 million. We don't gross enough to get into the charts but I bank enough to make me a happy camper. Think about it.

Like zoos, Above the Law commentary is filled with members of an endangered species, perhaps soon to be extinct, now often bred in captivity -- angry, disgruntled and willing to lash out at the nearest passer by for a tennis shoe.

Thats why I love Above the Law.

Binky the Polar Bear

Or maybe they are raptor dinosaurs to be unleashed upon the unsuspecting mass of the mid law --

There's a small immigration firm in Boston - Back Bay, no less - looking to hire someone for $28k, no benefits. Are these the kinds of jobs this conference was discussing?

I'm a patent litigator. How many small plaintiff's patent litigation firms are there? By my estimate, not many. I wish there were more.

Are there good legal malpractice firms or attorneys out there? It seems like it could be a good niche practice because some big firms are afraid to touch it.

If I insist on using the royal we in a blog post recapping a bar association panel, is that prestigious?

I got rejected from BigLaw, and wouldn't work for the pissy small firms. So I took a job in the government, am not rich, but have PLENTY of time to loaf. My boss doesn't really know much, and is lazy. The good news is that I probably can't get laid off unless I do something horrible. The worst I do is post on this website. I have to come in early, but get to surf the web all day and then leave by 3:30 pm. What other lawyers have it so easy? The key for getting a job like mine is to be willing to work for less. But less is better than nothing. I have a live-in girlfriend who can't wait to see me when I come home.

More like Legal Off Ramp.

Am I right or am I right?

"Among the joys of being part of Major, Lindsey & Africa is the great learning that comes from interacting with clients and candidates from all over the world. Formerly a Placement Director at Boalt Hall School of Law, Martha Fay Africa (Marty) occasionally thinks that her job has not changed much since leaving academia."

So working in career services = academia? Me thinks not.

http://www.mlaglobal.com/pages/ProfessionalBio.aspx?pagename=peo_Martha_Fay_Africa&versionnum=67

#19 = living the dream.

#19 = living the dream.

But what about the important things like the quality of the small and mid-size firm's office buildings?

7: Depends on how you define "sophisticated work" and "prestige," I suppose. Redlining agreements and performing due diligence =/= "sophisticated work," IMO. A very small number of Biglaw associates end up doing anything worthy of real prestige, which is why they're struggling to land jobs outside of Biglaw. We actually expect you to know your shit out here in the real world.

As an associate, I went from NYC Biglaw to a NYC small firm run by mostly former Biglaw people. Biglaw expectations/demands + small firm salaries/resources = worst of both worlds, at least for an associate (in my humble opinion).

There's a qualitative difference between a "boutique" and a "small firm."

A boutique is a firm with <50 or so lawyers that has purposely kept its size small, usually by focusing on just one practice area. You get biglaw salaries, much more sophisticated work, and hours that can be better or worse than biglaw. They have much higher hiring standards and pretty much everyone who stays becomes partner, because they hire only people who are expected to be partner.
Many boutiques show up on the Chambers and Partners rankings, like in the IP, litigation, tax, etc categories.

A "small firm" is any other firm that has few lawyers, generally because they don't have enough business to hire that many people. You can tell these firms by the fact that they usually take whatever comes in the door, though most specialize in commodity work like insurance defense or real estate closing.

There is a distinction that has to be made between high quality “small law” and shitlaw. The high quality small law “boutiques” and such generally derive their practitioners from experienced attorneys. Not all of the attorneys need to have a book of business, but at the very least you need to know what you are doing. Typically associates in these firms have at a minimum 5 years quality experience in their field from either Big Law or the government. New attorneys and those with less then 5 years experience need not apply. Only shitlaw is available for them—low paying, no benefits, no mentoring, no mobility (either professionally or financially) unsecure, unprofessional sweatshops.

The best bet is the (federal) government right now. Yeah, everyone is applying, but you need to keep trying. That’s how I got mine.

I work at a small firm. I'm a 4th year. My salary is $110k right now. Bonus last year was $15k. Yeah, not a biglaw levels, but I'm not in danger of being laid off any time soon. Did I mention that I work maybe 50 hours a week max?

26,

What you describe seems to be the norm down here in FL. I think the people talking about how great small law is are the exception and not the rule.

As a follow up to my 27 post, another difference between boutiques and "small firms" is that the former has associates who could have gone to big law but chose not to, while the latter tends to get people without other options. Not surprisingly, the boutiques pay their associates salaries competitive with big law. Some, but not all, do hire straight from law school, but that usually requires the law student to be a little proactive.

19,

What other web sites do you like?. I like www.hunch.com.

#14 --

Might be the best comment I've read on this blog. Maybe not the most substantive, but certaintly enlightening about the idiots that comprise of the vast majority of readers on this site.

There are many great small and mid-size firms in every major city. They provide good work and reasonable pay. In the city I live, smaller firms may not start you at 160K, but a lot pay starting associates close to, if not in, six figures. Get real people, that is good compensation for a recent law graduate who doesn't know shit about the practice of law.

I also find it hilarious that when ABT posts about some big firm laying people off or cutting salaries, the comments go crazy (100+ at least). But when ABT finally provides a discussion for alternatives to Biglaw, no one seems to care.

THERE IS LIFE BEYOND BIGLAW. And it can be a very good life (reasonable pay, interesting work) if you idiots out there can just get beyond your egos.

Only in biglaw can unemployed people, with no job prospects, think that they are still prestigous.

Look, of course we know there is “life beyond Big Law.” Most of us expect to be there one day. But that’s the point. ONE DAY. We want what everyone else in our position had the opportunity to get –the BIG LAW EXPERIENCE. It opens up doors even if you only sweat it out for a few years. I don’t want to make 80K right now. I don’t want to have to worry about a book of business or cultivating clients. That’s the appeal of BIG LAW. We got to work a lot of hours, but we don’t have to worry about these other “business” decisions until we are more seasoned and know somewhat what we are doing. I know the world has changed, but we are angry.
---Frustrated & Angry laid off First year.

35

Poor baby. You reek of a misplaced sense of entitlement. The sooner you get over it, the quicker you'll move on with your life.

35, yes, I'm sure those doors are flying open for those laid-off biglaw mid-levels who did "sweat it out for a few years." But at least they had the BIG LAW EXPERIENCE.

16 - Have you considered Niro Scavone?

Comment removed by moderator.

Comment removed by moderator.

40: You're a tool who tried to do schtick on a suicide. You should have all posting privileges removed. No one thinks your funny, witty, or insightful.

Disappear.

35 --

Your posts shows your immaturity and sense of self-entitlement. There are many ways to get great experience other big law, such as working for the government, clerkships, etc. Indeed, working for a big law firm is one of the worst ways to get practical experience. I personally know a number of big law litigation associates in their 4th year who have never been to court or conducted a deposition.

So what you are really saying is that you want a job that pays a lot of money. Welcome to life. We all do.

35,

I'm at a boutique with big firm ex pats. The pay is pretty good but nowhere near big law levels, but we work just as hard. You are right that you need a book. It is harder to make partner here than at a midsized firm because no one has enough business to sustain a junior associate.

34:

"Only in biglaw can unemployed people, with no job prospects, think that they are still prestigous."

EXACTLY. That's why this is so damn funny. It's like a man, stuck on the side of a freeway, turning up his nose at a Honda as his Lambo gets repo'd and hauled away. It's a long walk home, folks.

27 and 31, that is a good description of the distinction. I am a first year at a well known "boutique." Our practice is national but yet we keep the firm relatively small (30 or so attorneys). Most everyone here either worked in biglaw or had biglaw offers but chose the smaller atmosphere. We get paid biglaw market (145 here) and are usually out the door by about 6:30. Weekend work is rare and the people are friendly. No one is caught up in that prestige bullshit, either. We have a good profitable practice (my guess would be PPP around 1M). One other distinction worth mentioning is the smaller bonuses. Despite getting biglaw salary, our bonus structure is not comparable. Bonuses typically range between 5-10K for all associates. The again, though, that is plenty to live in this market.

I love how all these "prestige" comments come from people who have not yet been churned through the up and out machine. Talk to me once you've made partner at Biglaw-- and survived the first five years of it without getting divorced or leaping from your 51st story window.

I, for one, bailed from Biglaw at year nine for a teensy firm where I hardly work at all but get paid a higher rate per hour than I did before. No, not much prestige here. But at least I no longer have that perpetual look of fear like the people who stayed do. And my kids don't think my nanny is their mom.

I'm boutique in NYC (~100 attorneys, that's boutique in NY). First years make 160 and work varies from biglaw hours to out the door by 6:30 everyday (really depending on if your case is in some "busy" time or not). Furthermore, our summers are starting in September.

The only difference in pay is the bonuses may be smaller on the prior years, but our bonus was better than biglaws this year.

I dont get the biglaw prestige bullshit either. We have attorneys from Yale and attorneys from Third tier schools. They all do the same, great work.

Also, NO LAYOFFS!

So what? I can't drop the Cravath bomb at a douchey cocktail party? I'll pass.

The reason the biglaw posts get 100's of comments is because they are all done by law students who know nothing and are convinced your life and how it will turn out revolves around the prestige of your firm.

THANKS DAVID FOR AN INSIGHTFUL POST!!! This is what ATL needs more of in these times.

46 - You stayed at Big Law until Year NINE? Aha! Looks like someone got passed over for partner. That's why you went to your low prestige firm. If you were gonna bail vountarily, you would have done so between years 3-6. Caught you red handed!

"As a follow up to my 27 post, another difference between boutiques and "small firms" is that the former has associates who could have gone to big law but chose not to, while the latter tends to get people without other options."

Oh, I see - where you work is a boutique, but where everybody else works is a "small firm." Got it. It's kind of like the difference between erotica and porn and burlesque and strip clubs.

Golub? AKA Smeigel? My preciousssssssssss

Golub? AKA Smeigel? My preciousssssssssss

Golub? AKA Smeigel? My preciousssssssssss

Golub? AKA Smeigel? My preciousssssssssss

The lack of interest in this post is great. All you prestige whores, please try to stay in biglaw. Do us all a favor.

51/52/53/54

You didn't spell either of those names correctly. But I understand what your mangled speech is meant to convey.

So what kind of credentials do you have to have to get these types of jobs? Do you need to have graduated from T14, or would something in the top 50 do it? Top half, top third of your class? i'd appreciate any input.

I suggest a post on IP boutique shops please. Thanks David (we're done asking Elie for this).

57, it depends on the firm, and the hiring is individualized enough that there are no strict cutoffs. I would suggest you just look at the resumes of existing associates and see if you compare, keeping in mind that hiring standards are probably somewhat higher this year.

49-- No, not quite. The Biglaw firm I was at doesn't make partners until year 11 or 12. No non-equity partner bullshit. I wouldn't have been put up for another two years minimum, especially being part time.

It's true that I never would have made it. Way too lazy, plus I have this weird thing about seeing my kids every day. The key is to recognize these things and plan accordingly.

57 --

In my experience (and I am a relatively young attorney) who has gone from big law to small law, there are no "set of criteria" to get in. In other words, unlike big law firms, its not required that you be on law review at a T14 school and in the top 25%.

Don't get me wrong, strong credentials can really help. However, the smaller firms, from my experience, want to make sure you can produce (i.e., be a real lawyer who goes to court, drafts motion, takes deps etc) as opposed to just doing doc review for 16 straight hours. You won't be one of 24 attorneys on a case. It will be a partner and a less than handful of associates.

Also, it is imperative that you show the firm that you actually want to practice in that environment. Unlike the bigger firms, they don't expect/want a lot of turnover.

As a previous poster commented, if you're more interested in prestige and credentials, then stay in big law. Assuming you can find a job these days.

57 Here:

Thanks 59, 61. I really would rather work in a small/mid-size office. I had an offer to work at an office with ~50 attorneys this summer, but I decided to stick with a solo I worked for 1L summer who had held out the carrot of expansion and taking over his clients. Things have recently gone a bit sour and I am contemplating trying to pick up a job somewhere else. I go to a top 40 school and I am in the top half with a journal (but not law review). I guess I am a bit worried about being able to pick up a job since I graduate in 2010 and will not have worked at a firm, just with this solo. Do small and mid-sized firm ever hire recent grads without having clerked for them? How do I go about soliciting such firms that often do not have any recruiting info on their websites? Simply shoot an email in hopes that they are hiring? Any more help would be greatly appreciated.

57/62

This is 61. Again, whether small firms hire directly out of law school varies. Some do and some don't. Most won't even consider hiring someone who isn't a member of the bar (at least from my experience) so its imperative you get admitted as soon as possible.

I have empathy for your situation, and appreciate the fact that, unlike a lot of readers of this site, you are willing to look beyond big law. Unlike big firms, small firms hire based on need (thus, they usually don't have to lay off 25 associates because there is no more work). Unfortunately, there is no easy way of finding out when small law firms have need. It may sound cliche, but networking is a good way to get in the door.

Also, as a recent graduate, I would suggest trying to work in the public sector for a few years after school, if possible. Its a great way to get experience, and many of the smaller to mid-size firms hire government lawyers. For example, the firm that I am with (again, interesting work, good pay, reasonable hours etc) values attorneys who worked for state district attorneys because of their courtroom experience.

Don't be fooled by the idiotic posters that consume most of this site. There are other options to practicing law than big law, and you can still make pretty good money. Its NOT big law and then everything else. Good luck.

62: I got my job at a small firm through a job listing on the New York Law Journal website. No muss, no fuss. I know of people hired straight out of law school. The only problem with that is that they tend to be very underpaid as they're not coming from a high-paying BIGLAW gig. There's something to be said for spending even a year in BIGLAW, even if you hate it, for the salary leverage.

62: I got my job at a small firm through a job listing on the New York Law Journal website. No muss, no fuss. I know of people hired straight out of law school. The only problem with that is that they tend to be very underpaid as they're not coming from a high-paying BIGLAW gig. There's something to be said for spending even a year in BIGLAW, even if you hate it, for the salary leverage.

Frustrated & Angry laid off First year - aka Whiner:

As a first year working solo attorney - associated with an experienced solo practitioner and a small three partner firm - I hereby declare that you, dear friend, are a major pussy.

I am thoroughly enjoying the challenge of building a book of business, cultivating clients, appearing in court, being involved in depositions, and on and on..

Grow a pair.

49,

I don't know why I bother, as your comments were clearly designed to antagonize only, but here's how it works generally: If an associate is still around after the ninth year, then he or she has at least a reasonable chance of making partner. Associates who have no chance of making partner are pushed out well before their ninth year.

-Not 46

20 attorney firm with large number of practice areas. Expected billing 150 hours/month, even if you take vacation (though it's rare that people, especially transactional, hit that.) The work-life balance, at least insofar as the associates, is lacking. I may not bill big-firm hours (though I'm actually hitting my target hours,) but there seems to be no concern about minor things like associate health, sleep, etc. (I know, boo hoo, I have a job, boo hoo, if I were working in a big firm, I'd be billing 169 hours a week. I get paid half of what a big firm lawyer makes, and my target hours are about 100 a year lower than yours.)

Salary (first year) of $80k. Bonus is 2-3 weeks pay. No idea what raise will be, but not expecting much.