Figgit FIRST!

Captain FIRST!

Racists.

First First First!!!

Let me get this straight. The school entices students to take public interest jobs by offering loan forgiveness programs, and then yanks the rug out from under them by cancelling the program?

Do we see any Section 90 claim here?

Wow. Future law students beware! Going to law school is NOT a good idea if your only reason is that you don't know what to do in life or can't get a real job. No need to get 100k in debt just to delay getting your average job. Better to just take three years vacation in your parents basement.

Soooooooo glad I went to Wake instead of that TTT.

Certainly sucks for the law students but life's a gamble. Sometimes you roll snake eyes.

3 = Figgit FAIL
4 = FAIL FAIL FAIL

SECTION 90

*clap clap - clapclapclap*

SECTION 90

*clap clap - clapclapclap*

no offense to those in low paying non-profit and all benefits paid government positions...but frankly when the legal market is imploding and you are gainfully employed no matter how lowly that income...why should you expect help to repay your loans when there are attorneys who cant even find jobs to pay for food or rent? That is all. My school has had a good program in place which while during the economic boom times was a great idea...now when so many attorneys cant even find work or are fighting it out for UNPAID volunteer positions... I find it hard to imagine that schools should repay their loans when SOOO MANY other alums are jobless and cant pay for rent or their own food. Frankly these new programs should go to people who are forced to volunteer for no pay because they cant find a PAYING JOB anywhere.

UNC Law makes Ole Dirty Bastard look like Hugh Grant

Three years vacation in your mom's basement sounds like an excellent idea. If hot dinners and Internet access are both provided, kindly give me your folks' address and I will move in.

No phone. Sallie Mae is getting rather nasty.

~Dune guy

Is it just me, or does UNC Law make Ole Dirty Bastard look like Hugh Grant?

Is there a ranking below TTT? Because UNC Law is even lower than that

Is there a ranking below TTT? Because UNC Law is even lower than that

I love that I still haven't gotten the official email about this and am learning about it on ATL.

Thanks UNC Law!

The state has significant budget problems, and they imposed double-digit budget cuts on the university system. While this is certainly upsetting to the affected students, is it more sympathetic to give a significant break on a graduate school loan (a degree that each student chose to pursue, knowing it was expensive) or to use the money for the rest of the state's needs? Yes, law school is too expensive; but in-state, UNC is pretty damn cheap.

It is a horrible fact of life that the choices we make have to be dictated by what we can afford. If you want to go to law school and can't afford it, you need loans or scholarship money. If you want to go to law school with loans and know you are entering a field that doesn't pay well, there's a huge risk there.

It wasn't an evil state ruining it for a group of sympathetic students. Times are tough, and everyone is looking for money. Discretionary programs, even good-hearted ones, will suffer.

Does anybody have any opinions on whether UNC made Ole Dirty Bastard look like anybody else in particular?

Section 90 would seem to be a great claim, but is it possible that in presenting his version of the email, Mr. Mystal not only confused some facts, but also got the time frames a little mixed up? It almost looks (from a casual reading of the email) like this was a program cancelled last spring before it was funded -- I'm sure he has other sources of information though.

Like 35 said UNC is one of the cheapest schools in the country, particularly on the undergrad level, although law tuition in-state is "only" just over $15,000...compare that to other "state" schools like Virginia and Michigan.

Still, it really is too bad for people that may have been influenced by this program.

The law schools don't give a f*** about the costs incurred by the students, regardless of whether those costs are explicit or implied. The law schools only care about keeping an uninterrupted flow of tuition paying bodies going through the system so they can continue to leech off another generation.

The law schools don't give a f*** about the costs incurred by the students, regardless of whether those costs are explicit or implied. The law schools only care about keeping an uninterrupted flow of tuition paying bodies going through the system so they can continue to leech off another generation.

That was pretty awesome, 14-30. Nicely done!

UNC fails at the art of the holiday/Friday news dump. How hard would it have been to wait until July 4th weekend? Failing that, at least hold it two more days. Geez. Rookies.

A couple of you just seem jealous that you didn't get into UNC. If UNC is a TTT, I hate to think what Wake is because Wake is an absolute dump at twice the price and several spots lower in the rankings.

Elie, my cupcake. I like big girls so stop teasing me and let's get it on!

Seems like a misleading article, especially above the jump:

"Today, the University of North Carolina School of Law informed students that the school could not afford to make the promised loan repayments to students in low income jobs. "

I don't see that there are any "promised" loan repayments - students were applying for this program, and then the program never started. Still sucks, but it doesn't seem like there are people out in low-paying jobs who will now suddenly have to make loan payments next month.

8 - I'm one of those people who play the "don't pass" line. I win with snake eyes every time....

Mystal, can I take a huge dump on your moobs?

Isn't that where foley, the wilmer cheerleader, went?

It's worth noting that UNC students have significantly lower tuition costs than their private school peers. $16k for residents, $29k for non-residents. (http://www.law.unc.edu/pastudents/paying/tuition.aspx)

The loss of LRAP would be a lot more tragic if 1) the students had incurred $120k+ of tuition debt, and 2) the students had applied + attended UNC in expectation of receiving LRAP funds. Since this isn't the case, I don't think we should worry too much about this story.

Nobody likes a tease Mystal. I just want to nail you a few time until I get bored with you.

27

It's worth noting that UNC students have significantly lower tuition costs than their private school peers. $16k for residents, $29k for non-residents. (http://www.law.unc.edu/pastudents/paying/tuition.aspx)

The loss of LRAP would be a lot more tragic if 1) the students had incurred $120k+ of tuition debt, and 2) the students had applied + attended UNC in expectation of receiving LRAP funds. Since this isn't the case, I don't think we should worry too much about this story.

Screw these hippies. How is this any different from taking an at-will private sector job and having your offer rescinded or getting fired? Sure, it sounds worse because the school is doing it, but I would hope that they spelled out in the terms applicable to the LRAP program that its availability was subject to funding.

The best way to pay for law school is to befriend a retired judge and help him fight crime.

In the last episode of Hardcastle and McCormick, Mark McCormick has been secretly attending law school because he wants to follow in his friend Hardcastle’s footsteps. Knowing that Mark’s parole is up, and unaware of his friend’s enrolment, Hardcastle buys a car repair business for his friend. When everything comes to light, Hardcastle sells the repair shop and makes a bet with McCormick: If the ex-racecar driver can beat him in a game of basketball, the judge will pay his law school tuition. The judge then throws the game and Mark wins.

This episode is touching not only because it shows what two good friends will do for each other, but also because it ended an era of quality TV action/drama viewing.

You know, law school did used to be the bastion of the wealthy. Those that went could then afford to "fight for the little people" because they didn't have to worry about student loans or getting high paying Biglaw jobs.

Our country's plethora of lawschools, who have simply lowered the standards for lawyers and offering tuition has allowed anyone to go, which in turn has created more and more people with huge debts they will never repay, lowering out country's standard of living. And yet, it continues.

Maybe we should go back to the time when only the wealthy (or those that worked damn hard to afford it) went to lawschool.

You're absolutely right. The government should spend money helping students (who are already employed) pay back their loans instead of covering things like health care for low income children or unemployment payments to individuals that need them in order to feed themselves and their families.

Gosh, where are their priorities! They should get with the program.

WHEN THE MONEY RUNS OUT? THE FIRST THING ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK IS GOING TO BE PAYING THE LOANS OF EMPLOYED PERSONS.

ralph baxter pay cut

ahahahahah PWNED!!!!!!!!

"Family wealth isn't supposed to be a barrier to accessing a top education in this country." Its not, thats why everyone in this country complains about student loans. Most countries aren't idiotic enough to back six-figure loans to people who have nothing and prevent them from attending.

LRAP?
Isn’t that when nerds make their own costumes and play in the sewer?

Right now in North Carolina, there are thousands of school teachers being laid off for next year due to budget issues. Unlike California, New York, New Jersey, and other Blue States, North Carolina has a balanced budget, and it keeps it balanced with only a little gaming of the system. It would be rediculous in the extreme for taxpayers to pay for law students to have an easier time of it, while at the same time laying off thousands of school teachers. Needed road projects have been put on hold, new schools delayed, fewer cops and fireman, and just about anything else. Get a life you pampered, spoiled kids who seek to make big bucks off the sacrifices of hard-working taxpayers.

21

Please don't compare UNC with Michigan's and VA's law schools. It's laughable.

section 90!!!!

43 -- Agreed that budget cuts are being felt across the board. But, the point is that these people are NOT seeking to make big bucks -- hence, the loan forgiveness program.

46, most will leave for higher paying jobs as soon as they get their loans taken care of. And frankly, it doesn't matter what kind of job they take. Paying for someone to go to law school falls far down the list of important things to do with taxpayer funds. It's programs like this that have brought the country to the place it sits now, on the brink of bankrupcy.

47 -- Not really. People generally do not go into public interest to pay off their loans, which would take at least several years for most people. Maybe you think the repayment programs are better than they are... Most people that go into public interest law do so because of a sincere desire to help the public and sacrifice the possibility of a higher salary to do so. I agree that loan repayment programs are not at the top of the list right now, but your comment still seems a little extreme. (And I'm not in public interest law.)

47 -- Not really. People generally do not go into public interest to pay off their loans, which would take at least several years for most people. Maybe you think the repayment programs are better than they are... Most people that go into public interest law do so because of a sincere desire to help the public and sacrifice the possibility of a higher salary to that end. I agree that loan repayment programs are not at the top of the list right now, but your comment still seems a little extreme. (And I'm not in public interest law.)

36,

Wasnt there a similar lesson in Caddyshack that ended badly?

"Or do we want students who receive the best legal education to have no choice except going into a large corporate law firm simply because of their debt load?"

If no one can do public interest law because it doesn't pay enough, then salaries will rise to the level needed to attract individuals who will do that work. Simple matter of supply and demand.

By contrast, programs such as the one described use government funds (tax dollars) to subsidize voluntary choices people make. I don't want to be taxed to subsidize people choosing to work in public interest law; after all, they don't subsidize my employment preferences.

Supply and demand will raise public interest salaries?

I love the absolute economic illiteracy of your average law student - it always seems to come paired with the arrogance of, "I once read this somewhere so you people should listen up..."

Give me a break 51. You should have checked "the simple laws of supply and demand" before you PAID to enter a profession which already has a 16:1 ratio with the general public.

I love how 52 makes my point for me. If the profession has a 16:1 ratio with the general public, then there should be a surplus of lawyers willing to take relatively lower public-interest jobs without subsidies from tax revenue. In that case, the loan forgiveness serves no purpose -- the people who will go into public interest will do so irrespective of whether their loans are forgiven. The loan forgiveness is merely a windfall to them.

If, on the other hand, loan forgiveness drives behavior and increases the likelihood of someone taking a public interest job, then removing it will cause fewer people to apply, resulting in a shortage of public interest lawyers. That shortage will force salaries to increase until the shortage is ameliorated.

--51

52 = epic fail. Are there huge numbers of public interest slots being unfilled? No. Without loan repayment, will these public interest slots not attract any candidates? No. In the unlikely event that a slot persists unfilled, the public interest employer will increase the salaries or benefits, or reduce employee requirements.
Supply and demand, get a book and learn how it works. It is also possible to have unemployment in a free market. Stop being an economic illiterate and learn how that could happen.

I attended Stetson on a full scholarship.

UNC has a law school???? why bother

56,
Why bother? Because you'll get a top notch legal education from a school ranked in the top 30 in the nation. Plus the weather is gorgeous much of the year, and the women are gorgeous all of the year. The staff and students are smart but also pleasant to be around, not socially awkward. And the tuition is 15K a year (once you establish NC residency). Oh, and NC has a booming microbrew industry and decriminalized marijuana. That's why I'm bothering at least.

LOSSES RISE

ENTITLEMENTS FALL

QUINN REMAINS

"And slowly but surely, governments are abandoning its commitment to helping people manage that cost for the benefit of the public good"

Which they never should have done in the first place? Why should government subsidize people's occupational choices as opposed to having them respond to market incentives. If everyone sought to maximize their income, there would be no need for public interest law or entitlement programs.

Which school has the most asslobster?

Someone might have already said this, but if these students have fed-backed loans than they can get loan forgiveness starting in July under the College Cost Reduction Act. Problem solved?

Clearly UNC has not read Restatement 90.

I think 52's point was that salaries won't rise; public interest employers will simply do with less. After all, they can't raise salaries if they don't have any money.

"If everyone sought to maximize their income, there would be no need for public interest law or entitlement programs."

Speculative.

"If everyone sought to maximize their income, there would be no need for public interest law or entitlement programs."

There are plenty of people in the world who seek to maximize their income and die of starvation at the worst, or are in serious need of charity at best. I'm not arguing for or against government charity forced on taxpayers by the government. I'm just against the painfully ignorant comment by 59.

UNC is a good school currently under bad management.

So, a public school tries to start a program (that was not promised to its incoming students) to try to assist them with taking jobs to help the public. That program's funding gets cut due to budget cuts at the State level. The dean then is honest with the students that apply. And in the messed up world of the reader of ATL's mind, this is somehow a negative for such school.

More negative, would be (1) a school not attempting the program; (2) a school promising students money and then not delivering; or (3) not being honest in telling students about the funding issue.

So from where I sit, UNC Law and the Dean seem to be doing okay. Just coping with a budget issue in an honest way.

This restatement 90 stuff is ridiculous. If any of you actually had gone to law school in NC or taken the NC Bar, you would realize that North Carolina does not recognize promissory estoppel!

Ha!

Or maybe I'm wrong, but I remember something like that from law school.

-68

Or maybe I'm wrong, but I remember something like that from law school.

-68

56 is a GDI gel head turd who will live in New Jersey with his family, commute to Manhattan daily, and take vacation at Myrtle Beach and Virginia Beach while southerners laugh at him

56 is a GDI gel head turd who will live in New Jersey with his family, commute to Manhattan daily, and take vacation at Myrtle Beach and Virginia Beach while southerners laugh at him

And yet, 65, there are plenty of people who don't seek to maximize their income, but instead seek personal fulfillment. Fulfillment is great -- once you can meet all of your obligations without resort to any assistance whatsoever from the government.

"If no one can do public interest law because it doesn't pay enough, then salaries will rise to the level needed to attract individuals who will do that work. Simple matter of supply and demand. "

I'm not making any comments on whether states/schools should fund legal services more/less, but the idea of funding public interest employment is that the market has no interest in providing legal services to the poor. I don't think supply and demand works with 501(c)(3)'s that have a fixed (or decreasing) budget with no profits.

If no one wants to work in public interest for the money their paying, then the slots go unfilled. If public interest organizations get less money, the slots disappear (via hiring freezes). Right now, many public interest organizations can't pay anyone new, even though they feel as if they need 3 new positions filled. Market forces of supply and demand won't correct for that because the market won't demand more legal services via clients who have no money to pay in the first place.

Their should be they're... I need more sleep

Regional schools like UNC are only the beginning. Rather than dismissing the people who went into public interest work after attending a smaller, regional school, you all ought to consider what this story is a microcosm of - saturation to the point where even qualified law grads with above-average grades from top-ranked law schools are not competitive in the market.

All law school - regardless of rank and national prestige - is a scam that thrives on the same myths that "you can do anything with a law degree" and "everyone knows that lawyers make lots of money." The model of graduating too many JDs is unsustainable, but the students weren't exactly the ones who made it that way. Quit being detached an unsympathetic for a change - the students who do immigration work because they were promised that they could "help people" by being smart and going to law school are the ones who need help as much as anyone.

-T20 2L

#51, your response is ignorant and you don't seem to understand how most public interest organizations function. They are unable to raise wages. Ever. This isn't a case where these orgs are making a ton of money and siphoning off the extra to compensate partners. There are no partners. The organizations function to help those in society whose interests would go unacknowledged and unsupported otherwise. If this profession doesn't adhere to the promise (in the preamble to the Model Rules of Professional Conduct) to help the less fortunate, we are doing society a disservice.

We need public interest lawyers, and if we don't have any because no one can afford to pursue these careers, we are no better then barbarians.