First?

For about 90% of lawyers, $100k in debt is too much to carry.

Damn! Not first!

-#2

How did Mystal pass his Character and Fitness test?

He is a risk for committing unethical behavior- and crazy.

priv undergrad + priv law school is about 400k, isn't it?

Kash could pay off his debt with her spare change.

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it's not that he's in debt, it's that he's failing to pay it back as required. Duh.

This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. You also can't get a government security clearance if you've got serious debt. The same premise holds to true kin both cases, heavily indebtted people are more apt to do unethical things because they are that much more desperate to get cash.

This guy should be allowed to become a lawyer. To quote Paris Hilton:

"Mom! It's not right!"

11 - So who does that leave in the legal profession? Trustafarians?

ok maybe he took out too much debt. Went off to London, rode his jetski .... But his issue is between him and his lender. The Bar should not get involved in this.

From a law and economics perspective, it is not efficient to deny this guy a law license. It is bad for him AND for the lenders he owes all that money. Practicing law is probably the only way he could have a shot of repaying $400K.

Nice Elie, you beat the WSJ by one minute:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/07/02/sizing-up-a-student-loan-horror-story/

well he will definitely be able to pay them back now that he will be relegated to working as a paralegal for the rest of his life.

read the article.

he had 230k in debt and then sm smacked him w/ fees..interest accumulated...now he has 400k.

the real crooks are the loan companies who continued to deem him a safe bet and continued to allow him to take out loans!!!

"Student Loan Bailout. Just Do It."

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/03/student_loan_bailout_just_do_i.php

$400,00 is for poofs.

YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS

Skadden Secure

The issue raised by the character and fitness committee is the fact that he has never paid paid back one cent of his debt; on his side there is something fishy about the fact that the debt nearly doubled in 4 years with penalties; the right thing to do is to pay back something while disputing the total.

There must be, err I hope, that there is another story here.

I mean, would they disqualify him for defaulting on a sub-prime loan on a house he couldn't possibly afford? Of course not - that was government sponsored recklesness.

And, let's be honest, there's no way in hell they would do this to a minority candidate.

11 - it's not the amount of debt you have it's whether you have the means or assets to cover it. Most attorneys have over $400,000 of debt -- usually home mortgage/home equity line. But the home value (in theory) is sufficient to fully cover the debt. If they bought in the last five years they may be underwater. Shoudl that impact their character and fitness to be lawyers? What if the value of their home really plummets and they go substantially underwater? What if they lose their job? By your logic all of these scenerios woudl render them unfit to be lawyers. Go back to law school and learn the difference between a persons status and their acts. Merely holding debt and a declining portfolio does not make one unfit.

this is outrageous. essentially the lesson is that you shouldn't strive to be at the best or even adequate institutions as an undergrad and law student unless you can pay or you're getting a scholarship.

13 - you are right.

this story should be filed along with the hundreds of cnn healthcare related articles of "things that would never happen in europe"

This is so incredibly fucked up. Can we (attorneys) please go on a loan payment strike and fuck the entire system? Fuck Sallie Mae! Fuck the Bar!

Ugh. On one hand, how ethical is someone who would rack up $400k in student loan debt -- he could not have had the reasonable expectation of repaying that, so in essence, he knew he was defrauding someone. And if he's ethical, how intelligent is it? So, for either a lack of ethics or brains, he's not making a compelling showing that he should be admitted.

That said, he did bet it all on becoming a lawyer, and it probably is his only chance of making any dent in that number. He'll have to be a mob lawyer, though.

"But I got debts no honest man could pay."

The ship be sinking...

for dat mo'fucka.

@13 - nobody HAS to go to Harvard to be a lawyer. If you really want to be a lawyer that badly there's always CUNY (and based on his bar exam performance, that's where he belonged anyway).

11

This is egregious, outrageous, and a complete violation of due process!

10 nailed it. The article tries desperately to make it seem like it's the amount of debt that the judges objected to when it's quite clearly the fact that he has never made a single payment. He moved out of the country where he apparently could not be reached and then used as many medical deferments as he could get away with (the guy got hit by an ATV and a jet ski - he's a magnet for unlicensed vehicles). Broken legs don't stop most white collar people from doing their jobs - seeing people walking around an office building on crutches is not at all unusual. Instead of moving to London, he should have paid his creditors. At 47 years old, it's not like this deadbeat behavior can be ascribed to youthful naivete, it goes right to his honesty in financial dealings.

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There must be, err I hope, that there is another story here.

I mean, would they disqualify him for defaulting on a sub-prime loan on a house he couldn't possibly afford? Of course not - that was government sponsored recklesness.

And, let's be honest, there's no way in hell they would do this to a minority candidate.

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The implications of this decision discourage borrowing by people whose parents don't have enough money to pay for law school. This will cause a barrier to diverse students from entering the profession.

This decision will limit the bar to only legacy candidates, trust fund babies, and "Rockefeller-type" blue-bloods.

You have to sacrifice everything to pass the bar and you are unemployable until you do pass the bar. I don't blame him for not paying his loans back until he passed the bar.

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This makes as much sense as a debtor's prison. You're in over your head, so we're going to make sure you can never get out.

This is horrendous and nonsensical.

The fact that he took loans to get an LLM alone makes him not worthy of sympathy.

Was he working at any point - I don't see whether he was in either this article or the WSJ??

If he was working and made no payments, f' him.

If he was constantly in school and/or rehab with no chance to have an income, then he is no different than any other student who racks it up while waiting to pay it at the end once they finally have a decent paying job.

this guy doesn't seem like a striver -- he seems like a slacker.

call me unsympathetic, but it says it took him 10 years to finish undergrad (because he needed 6 years (!) to rehab a leg injury), spent 5 years after college doing something (not specified); went to law school; after law school, went to London to do a masters of law (which he received in Dec. 2004); finally passed the NY bar in Feb 2008. He's now 47 years old, been racking up student loans since 1985 and has never made any substantial payments on those loans, always seeking deferrals, etc. What was preventing him from getting a job during the five years after college (before law school) and during the three plus years after his LLM? The LLM also was clearly a lark, but whatever.

Ultimately, I'm not sure that he should be disqualified, but he strikes me as a whiner sleazebag.

All you people who seem to love Europe so much, just move there. This is America. If you want European healthcare and education, go to Europe. Nobody's stopping you.

Great. I worked my way through community college, ugrad, grad school, then law school and am graduating next year heavily in debt. Looking forward to a bright future as a pathetic schlub as well, I guess. F@#$

"All you people who seem to love Europe so much, just move there. This is America. If you want European healthcare and education, go to Europe."

Why should we, when we can just save ourselves the moving costs and vote for OBAMA?

Upon reading this, I asked myself, "how much more in debt could one be?" And the answer is none. None more in debt.

Oh boo hoo.

Failing the bar twice in a row is nature's way of telling you it's time to consider an alternate career path. Failing it a third time should be a firm smack in the head that you're not meant to be a lawyer. Going that far into debt because you really, really, really want to pass the bar and be a lawyer, with no plan or idea how you're going pay back that size debt, should cause you to give pause and consider why.

There is no injustice here. Nobody has a constitutional right to become an attorney - least of all someone who can't pass the bar after three tries.

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As the article noted: "Bowman concedes that he has never made a payment on his loans, partly because of medical and other deferrals and problems with his lender."

If the nonpayment was only partly due to his medical problems, isn't he conceding that he was in unjustified default during some of his 26-year quest? Once you default, you owe more. Despite the efforts by Elie & the NYT, Bowman's not a very sympathetic character. He tried to game the system and get away without paying his just debts.

FIRST!!

Who is worse off, this guy or Paulina Bandy?

She didn't pass the CA bar until the 14th time. She racked up so much debt that her family had to move into a 365 square foot house. See:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/the_bar_exam_if_at_first_you_d_1.php

FIRST!!

47 - D-bag, deferral and default are NOT the same thing! Get a fucking clue.

49 comments and not a single Frank Grimes comparison? I half expect this guy to be living above a bowling alley and below another bowling alley...

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This is not about accumulating huge debt or the dudes attempts to repay the debt. This is about the Court punishing someone for not accepting his station in life. It should be a warning to all the morons in this country (non-minoirty morons) who think that they can get graduate degrees and somehow gain financial security without the social and class-based connections.

Look here, anyone who takes four time to pass the bar is by definition unfit to be a practicing attorney. They cut you off at two tries. The public has a right to know that the attorneys who are in their area have at least the smarts and fitness to pass within two attempts. Piss on all those who say otherwise.

The admissions board and court will be seeing the debt ratio rise and rise as law schools bump up tuition 10-15% each year. For those who don't come from money or have scholarships that cover a substantial portion of the cost, the punishment will be inflicted by the admissions board.

The word penalties is present after the talk about the debt. Hopefully the cause of his denial is the penalties and not the debt itself. If not, the denial is a ver elitist thing to do and only reinforces the wealth classification.

NY needs to stop letting people take the bar recreationally. And the ABA needs to step in. Even though the pass rate plummets after the second taking, enough of these clowns get ultimately through to jam up the market with "qualified" lawyers in NY---and in DC, after they grab a Chinatown bus and "waive in." Enough Horatio Alger shit for the bar---let other professions bear the brunt letting people live their dream for a change.

Where the hell is the Restatement 90 guy? Too obvious here?

Sorry dude, your rags to riches story isn't quite charming enough for us. I don't think he should have been denied bar qualification, but four go-rounds to pass the bar, a first year at 47 years old with no productive work history....get a fucking job and live on ramen and wonder bread and pay off your loans like everyone else did.

The funny part is that he plans extensive litigation against SLM. Fresh law school grads are so wrapped up in that stuff. He's going to clog the system for a while.

this does not reflect well on hastings

taking the bar 4 times? wtf?

so it's ethical for a lawyer to shield banks and corporations from the consequences of their misconduct, but not ethical for someone to accumulate $230,000 in debt in pursuing an education?

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29 - Who told you to put the balm on? Did I tell you to put the balm on? What the hell is a balm anyway?

I want a hamburger, no a cheeseburger. I want a hotdog. I want a milkshake. I want a law school loan, no I want a jetski. I want a girlfriend in London. I want a license to practice law.

"Great. I worked my way through community college, ugrad, grad school, then law school and am graduating next year heavily in debt. Looking forward to a bright future as a pathetic schlub as well, I guess. F@#$"

If you're heavily in debt, you obviously didn't work your way through college, ugrad, etc. At the very least, you didn't work hard enough.

Elie really should have explained this better.

He took ten years to finish college because he spent six years in rehab relearning basic physical functions after being crushed by an ATV. Thus, huge interest buildup. He spent five years doing I don't know what, spent four years getting a JD and an LLM, and failed the bar many times. He passed four years after graduating, at which point his good leg was broken in four places when someone hit him with a jet ski while he was swimming. Asking for a medical deferral from Sallie Mae led to the current spat, apparently.

During the time it took for him to pass the bar, interest, penalties and fees charged by collections agencies expanded his debts from 230,000 to 435,000. (Sallie Mae says the collections fees were 25%, he says that it was sold to two different collections agencies and each charged him 25%).

So it is legitimate to ask what happened between college and law school and what he was doing while studying for the bar.

This story is amazing solely for the fact that this clown could rack up 400k in student loan debt.

It should be a no-brainer that he fails character and fitness with that kind of financial acumen.

Seriously, do you really think its a good idea to let this guy within 10 feet of an IOLTA account?
If he can't be trusted with his own/bank's money, why would we trust him with client money?

jobs@grossoldman.com

This decision is complete bullshit and just perpetuates the elitist attitudes that are pervasive in the legal profession. I am really sick of this type of crap and of the fact that accomplished attorneys/judges think they are the fucking moral compass for our society.

You know all of those lawyers who just seem to skate by in life because of the silver spoon that they were born with in their mouths. Parents paid for private high school, then Ivy League undergraduate (or equivalent), then law school, then buy them or highly subsidiize their first New York apartment, then they get the high paid law firm job where they keep all of the money they earn because they have no student loans or practically any rent to pay, then they are taken in by all of the same spoiled partners because that is the life they were born into...it just keeps perpetuating itself in a profession that only supports the success of its own social class!

Then, we have this attorney who obviously is dedicated to becoming an attorney and has racked up debt in the process of doing so. Sure, it is a lot of debt, but it can happen between law school costs, living costs and the loss of earnings while trying to pas the bar exam as well as other unforseen expenses that the shit of life throws your way. Then, to not be able to practice law because of the decision of some asshole, elitist judges is just mind boggling. I feel for this guy and really hope he prevails. He deserves it so he can start to pay back his debt and build the life for himself that he deserves and has earned on his own not because of his parents!

We really need to examine the values that our profession prioritizes. No, it is not morally wrong or unethical for an attorney to represent and profit over Bernie Maddoff but it shows poor character because an aspiring attorney has financial challenges in the pursuit of his goals. Who knows what this guy's life circumstances have been and who are we to judge. If he has not committed any crime or had a pattern of unethical behavior, why is this a problem? Plenty of lawyers who have owned businesses have become bankrupt of contributed to the bankruptcy of business because of their decisions. Are these lawyers disbarred? No. The reason why is because, just like everything else in our capitalist society, the underlying value that pervades the bar is material wealth. Fuck that!!! The moral purpose of law is to effect positive social change, not to hoard the wealth into the hands of a few.

#61, "but not ethical for someone to accumulate $230,000 in debt in pursuing an education?"

I think the point is that this guy didn't get "an education."

He didn't take out 400K in loans. Nearly half of that amount are fees imposed by Sallie Mae, according to the NYT article.

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65, good catch. I constantly hear people say that they worked their way through school when they actually mean that they merely held part time and summer jobs at certain times while they were in school. Working your way through school means that you paid your way through school with money that you earned before or at the time. Let's not define down everything so people can feel good about themselves.

Also, despite what some commenters have written, you are actually supposed to pay back your student loans after you get a job, not only after you get a job that pays you enough to live the way you want with some left over to pay back your loans.

Thanks #73; I'm also sensitive to the distinction, for probably the same reasons as you.

-65

WHY HAS NO ONE ASKED WHETHER SALLIE MAE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE ALGORITHM WORKSHOP AND REASSESS TO WHOM 200K LOANS SHOULD BE AWARDED??????

62, here you go: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ass%20lobster

In a market economy, the lenders would have cut him off once he reached the $100k student loan mark, when it became increasingly obvious that he was a repayment risk. But Sallie Mae doesn't care because government subsidies insulate them from down-side risk. Your tax dollars at work, guys.

76 comments and no PE. Huh.

This is bullshit. Yet another example of NY judges drunk with power.

65 - It's called private school, sunshine. Not everybody's mommy and daddy pay their way.

right on, 69, right on.

Forget this guy for a moment. Some of law school "friends" amassed $150,000 in law school debt, and used it to party hard, not pay for school which I think their parents covered, and now these same "forever on the tit" shirkers, who have good paying jobs,continue to party, and instead of paying their loans, they defer them, using the money instead for constant " ski trips" lavish nights and impulsive trips to Las Vegas and the islands.

Of course with this lifestyle comes inconsistency, crash and burn. These are the guys who stagger into work late, red eyed, puffy, start to look like hell, screw up assignments, can't concentrate, are out sick often, etc. No doubt, they will be taken down, by the firm, a car crash, the banks or lenders. But, it irks me to watch them. I pay my loans. It means I can't go to great restaurants every week, haven't had a vacation in six months. But, I have self respect, I'm in good physical, mental and fiscal shape.

I can't stand the arrogant, greedy piggishness of these guys who borrow to party, then defer the pain. They're variation on Bernie Madoff. I know in time, they'll pay, and pay big time. But, I can't stand watching them, and hate working with them. It's hard to be a man. An adult man, who does the right thing. Whose word is his word. These guys are pretenders. Fakers. They spend what's not theirs, don't repay what they borrow, They're thieves.

79, don't give me that bullshit, buddy. My parents barely see the other side of $50k. They paid my cell phone for the first semester of undergrad and that's it. If you can't afford a private law school (and I went to one), then don't do it. Or at least don't get on here and bitch about it.

-65

81, then they come on to blogs and facebook groups to beg Obama for a student loan bailout. Education is a fundamental right, after all, no matter how much it costs the real working taxpayers.
Change we can believe in.

As we have come to expect from ATL since MysTTTal took over, this post is muckraking, intentionally misleading claptrap. This guy wasn't denied bar membership because of the amount of his debt; he was denied because--in 26 FRICKIN YEARS--he never repaid one red cent.

Would you trust a guy like that to handle your money, if you were a client?

Louis Ziccarelli could pay that off in a month. He is better dressed and better compensated than any of you.

#65 deserves repeating:

"Also, despite what some commenters have written, you are actually supposed to pay back your student loans after you get a job, not only after you get a job that pays you enough to live the way you want with some left over to pay back your loans."

AGREED!

81, you sound awfully bitter for somebody who claims to be so happy with his life.

This guy's been hit twice by sport vehicles, slammed with outrageous student loan interest, and was unable to pass the bar 3 times. I think the universe may be trying to tell him to just give up and die.

And yes, he is probably a lazy dumb man who shouldn't be allowed to be a lawyer. I wouldn't want to be his client. That kinda bad luck could be infectious!

What 10 said. Duh.

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Student loans are for pussies.

SMU full ride, bitches!

73/65 - excellent point. Kudos to both of you on your tight logic.

People who can't afford to pay for college without going into debt should clearly work full-time while in school so that they can afford to pay for the $50K+ that a college education costs every year. They should also maintain an A average so that they will be able to compete for the same jobs and grad schools as the rich kids. If they can't? Fuck 'em - they can work at Wal-Mart for their entire lives.

Of course, they probably won't be able to afford a house or health care while working at Wal-Mart because they will be getting less than living wage, and they will probably end up with six-figure debt anyway once a member of their family gets sick from antibiotic-resistant beef, but hey! At least we stuck to the American ethos of personal responsibility!

#43 - Because we don't want America destroyed the way Europe is collapsing.

65 and 73 - you are being idiotic. There are college GRADUATES working full-time who can't make $35,000 a year, plus living expenses. How do you think some part-time job would provide anything like full tuition for a student? Maybe if you're working for the mob, or something.

No college student in a legal occupation is going to be able to cover his or her college tuition. Baby boomers pretending the world you're handing us is anything like the world you were given drive me crazy!

As someone who was blessed to grow up in a loving family, I think this guy was gravely impacted by growing up in foster care. Probably explains why he never worked until age 47. Someone should have explained to him how the LLM was as others have said a "lark." The greatest risk with him is being near IOLA accounts. However, many lawyers who commit financial chicanery and crimes are allowed to apply for readmission--it happens all the time in NY. This guy didn't even committ a financial crime yet. Let him practice.

#92, don't knock it until you've tried it. Been there, done it, in biglaw now. It's not hard for anyone who's not extraordinary lazy or stupid.

And who the hell pays full tuition for school? That's insane--schools are falling all over themselves to give away money. Let's see: HYS or full-ride at T14? Let me think about that for a second...

-65

73 / 65 obviously never held a job during school.

as for the baby boomer work-through-school thing, chart inflation vs. tuition cost over the last few decades and you will find the answer.

Less lawyers is a good thing, people. Don't feel sorry for him.

This is a travi-sham-mockery!

Calling bullshit on all of you. Not a babyboomer--I'm 27. Paid for undergrad by waiting tables 30-40 hours a week during the school year, 70-90 in the summers, plus had a half-tuition academic scholarship. It's not hard to make $30k a year doing that. Paid for lawschool by going to a T14 on a full-ride scholarship. While I was fortunate to get the law school full-ride (but not that fortunate--most HYSers could do the same, and any T14er could do it if he got over the dick-showing contest that is the UNSR), anyone with some balls and brains could do the same as I did for undergrad.

-65

i authored 24 and inadvertently flared the hemorrhoid that is contrast of european and american healthcare and education.

honestly, im happy that commenters have been reduced to polemic in less than 10 comments. it shows how loud people will talk bout their visions but how meek they are when faced w/ change.

anyways, i dont think anyone is recommending radical reform to the educational system...just pointing out this gift of the magi scenario, which seems all too likely for a person who won't get a scholarship but can't afford tuition.

the euro-phobes on here should concede one proposition: graduate education in america is still largely a place for the upper and upper-middle class and fairly un-meritocratic, as we are led to believe.

The USPTO denied my admission for the same reason. I was out of work and struggling, so I decided to use my science background to move into patent law practice with the goal of catching up on my student loans and other debt. I passed the Patent Bar Exam. Being of good moral character, I disclosed on my application that I was behind on my student loans. My application died with that disclosure.

a partner's son who currently works at Latham NY failed the bar. everyone who failed the bar, across all offices, were laid off, except, miraculously, this guy. he also wasn't staffed on a single matter come layoff day.

look at daddy's profile, and they both went to the same law school. now, i'm not saying i know how he got in, got his job at latham, or kept his job despite failing the bar, but i have a few guesses. now, please tell me again how the US is a meritocracy.

If the article says he graduated from SUNY Albany, why does the picture show a degree from SUNY Buffalo?

Hey 64...you'll get nothing and like it!

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This story seems to have a number of stories behind it. First, and this is just a heads up to those of you still in law school, remember those "private loans" that you took after the subsidized stuff ran out to cover the cost of tuition or living expenses? Those private loans provide few of the benefits that regular government loans do.
Out of a job? Don't pass the bar the first time and need a few months to study for the next one? Working for government for 50k/60k a year out of law school (my story)? Can't make a payment? Need a month to get it together? Go fuck yourself. We don't do deferments. We're gonna call five times a day at home and at work. Actually, we're not going to call you - a collection agency in Jersey is going to do it. Oh, and your credit is destroyed triggering default rates on those credit cards you also ran up during law school. "But wait! I went to the central student loan website to track down all my loans and get them consolidated. You guys didn't show up because my private loan was sold four times on the secondary market. You have never even sent me a bill!" Go fuck yourself and we'll call back four more times today.
Second, the 25% default fee(s) or collection fee or whatever is an important part of this story and one that seemed to be missed in the ATL version.
Third, the NYTimes article notes that he went to community college, state university, state law school. This was my path as well. He also went in 1990-2003 which is before the really bad tuition increases in public schools. His total tuition with interest should be about 75k - mostly from Hastings. What did he need the extra 200k for? Living expenses? Books? I'm thinking he paid medical expenses out of student loans and that is the cause of most of this.
Lastly, failure to pay student loans should only be a moral character disqualifier if shown that you had the means to pay or should have had the means. Placing that burden on the moral character applicant is fine in my opinion.

Little tired of the "you should work through school" bit... my mom did that by working at Denny's. But tuition for her was about $4,000 a freaking year back int he 1960's. My tuition was $40,000 and I had to study 70 hours a week. Yeah, totally could just work right on through that if I wasn't so lazy.

Having $120,000 in loans is not stupid, it's the ONLY CHOICE if you're not getting money from the rich family.

92 and 94 and others: here is the point that 65 and I were making - the phrase "he worked his way through school" means "he paid for school himself at the time that he went from money he made working before and during school". If you took out a loan, or your parents paid part of your tuition, you did not work your way through school. I'm not making a value judgment about people who made other choices and I took out loans to go to law school as well, but you can't just say "I worked my way through school" when what you mean is "I had jobs that paid some money but did not cover my tuition." I know that you would like me to give you grade inflation-like credit for your efforts, but sometime phrases have meanings that shouldn't be changed just because it makes you feel like a real self-made little worker.

LOL 103, do you also get offended when a restaurant owner hires his own kid as a waitress over more experienced applicants?

#3 is right.

Also, I agree with whoever suggested that the ABA should step in. You should have 2, maybe 3 shots at taking a state bar, then you should be done.

Additionally, the ABA needs to stop accrediting law schools, we have way too many as it is.

Sallie Mae should never have given him the last loan. If there's a reason he shouldn't be admitted, its not because of his debt, its because it took him four times to pass the bar (gotta say however, JFK took it three times, and we all know that passing the bar is a bunch of crap in terms of knowing how to be a lawyer).

People say to pay while you're disputing fraudulent charges and fees- but that's a bunch of crap, when you do that, it's like admitting they are right, and if they truly have messed up the accounting of everything, what's to say that they'd get it right while he is paying. He should sue them and I hope he wins.

And I'm sick of reading people say, "he racked up $400k in debt" he didn't- the fees nearly DOUBLED what he owed because he was 1. unable to work (remember, he didn't have his license yet, so what kind of job did you think he could have on CRUTCHES in this economic climate- his second accident occurred in 2007) and 2. trying to pass the bar.

I don't think $270,000 in debt is too much. It's a lot, but if you didn't grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth, its pretty normal. Besides, while you're in school, you don't have to pay anything back and while you're unemployed, you don't either. Sallie Mae is in the wrong and I wouldn't be surprised if they unethically did influence this decision.

The judges were out of line.

What Sallie Mae did here sounds unconscionable and I agree with everyone who said that there's no way he'll ever pay the money back UNLESS he's admitted.

Sallie Mae went about defaulting on Bowman's loans long after they had been informed there were serious issues with their loan servicing. This letter was before any loans had ever been defaulted on, and apart from quoting comments from Sallie Mae agents who either threatened Bowman or just hung up the phone on him, it just asks for information, which they refuse to give (in a later letter they say they will "not address this issue any further" and then send all his loans into default.)
http://www.scribd.com/full/17037744?access_key=key-nz1gb7fwblpbaw6f9vo

You would think that the guarantors (who are the channels by which taxpayer money goes to cover federal loans) would care. Here Bowman tries to get the guarantors to kick his loans back to Sallie Mae so he can deal with Sallie Mae directly. The guarantors never bother to address the issues; instead, they pick up the phone, call Sallie Mae, and ask them if anything was wrong on the account. They then write back to Bowman saying Sallie Mae did nothing wrong (because Sallie Mae said so). What did you think Sallie Mae would say? Here's the letter to the guarantors:
http://www.scribd.com/full/17037179?access_key=key-18l2fuwf8i4iy1sln4qv

This has also been brought to NY Senator Schumer's attention (the Senator's office sent a letter to Sallie Mae's VP of Federal Relations); hopefully there will be some resolution. Bowman wrote back to Senator Schumer to say thank you and also attach lots of proof and documentation of Sallie Mae's accounting errors, refusal to disclose information, and misdeeds in general:
http://www.scribd.com/full/17038029?access_key=key-1zgrggwt4z1gg7767cpm

Really, this whole issue is about how Sallie Mae can readily cover up its mistakes and get away with it, and it's the borrower who takes the fall. The judges did something unusual, but this delinquency shouldn't have happened in the first place. Come on! Bowman had been asking for information from Sallie Mae since April 2007. He asked for repayment options, deferment options, and forbearance options. Sallie Mae didn't tell him how much deferment and repayment he had used and remaining until MAY 2009 (after they sent all his loans into default).

Yea 65, 81, & 107! Real Men pay their bills! Period.

110 i get offended when people suggest that the US is a meritocracy when clearly it is not. if it isn't a meritocracy, then why should anyone respect property rights (to the extent they can avoid being punished)? if neither you nor the owner of an article of property did work to earn it, then the owner doesn't really have a better moral claim than you, and you might as well steal it, provided our inept law enforcement officials won't catch you. take someone who has inherited wealth or earns money through a job daddy gave to them. personally, i think they should be open season for theft.

His story doesn't seem to quite add up. Says he was shuffled through foster homes etc as a child and then magically after he takes the bar he's living with "his once-estranged mother."

Plus he ran off to live in London and get an LLM right after law school, at the age of 41. I'd say that's about the age you ought to just find a job and get on with it.

Finally, if he spent as much energy in studying for the bar as he did in documenting all the ways in which Sallie Mae has f----d him over, maybe he would have been well on his way to repaying his loans by now.

This guy hasn't made any payments on his loans. Mystal is just buying into the Times' article by making it sound as if his debts are what prevented admission.

115, do you feel the same way about people who got their jobs because they were born with more skin pigments than average?

While I agree with 109, I have no problems making a value judgment. People who take out any debt for law school over an amount they can pay off in less than 5 years are being foolish. People who take out much of any debt for undergrad are insane.

112 - "his second accident occurred in 2007" yes, which was three years after he finished (his second) law degree. This is a 47 year old man who had never paid a red cent on student loan debt that he had been racking up for over 20 years despite several periods of time where he seemingly had no excuse not to be making payments, including a period where he had the wherewithal to move to London, one of the most expensive cities to live in on the planet. Arguing about the propriety of the charges added to the debt by SallieMae and the collection agencies is just noise to obscure the fact that this guy is quite clearly a longtime deadbeat.

107 is right. Mystal seems to be ignoring a bunch of factors which were downplayed in the article. This guy took out private loans and defaulted. He also took out a bunch of money that wasn't related to education. That's why his finances are a mess.

In answer to the original question about $400,000 in debt being too much for a lawyer to have character and fitness - no I think we should be able to have mortgages. There is a difference here between having a large amount of debt and having a large amount of debt that has been poorly managed (for whatever reason). A lot of people who went to a private undergrad and private law school and paid for it all with loans will have around $250,000 in debt. I know there are extenuating circumstances here, but the court should have at very least explained its reasoning.

Hey, He's a thief. The backstory may be long and winding, but the bottom line with people like this is: They are Thieves.

thief
noun ( pl. thieves |θēvz|)
a person who steals another person's property, esp. by stealth and without using force or violence.

Yes, you could argue the word "person," but isn't that taking the
world's lessons back to pre-2008/09 days?

113/Bowman himeslf finally pulls back the curtain and reveals why he was not admitted: Not because of the amazing pile of debt. Not because he never paid any of it back. Rather, it is because he is a nutcase/crank who makes up the law in angry customer complaint letters and thinks he shouldn't have to pay a dime.

Next up for Bowman: "I don't have to pay income tax because 'income' isn't defined, and Ohio was never a state."

#122 A mortgage is not a student loan, We are talking student loans.

Maybe after 10 years of undergrad he should have taken some time to work - or only gone to a law school where he could get a scholarship...,just a thought.

I know many of you scoff at going to a "lower" ranked school for free as opposed to your T5, 14, 25 etc - but for someone with 10 years of undergrad debt, maybe it's not a bad idea (I also think it's a good idea for anyone really, unless you're choosing between T3 and 20s - if it's 5-15 ranked versus 16-25 ranked free, take the free...)

I have about this much debt. 4yrs @ Fordham undergrad, 2 years Masters @ Columbia and 3 years law school @ Fordham again. Is this really an issue?

It's not the amount, it's how it got to that amount --

HE HAS NOT MADE A SINGLE MONTHLY PAYMENT OVER HIS 26-YEAR STUDENT LOAN HISTORY

127, only if you're approaching your 50s and have not made a single monthly payment over your entire life as a professional student for the past 30 years.

4 yrs undergrad @30K = 120K
4 yrs living expenses in NYC (undergrad) = 70K

2 yrs Masters @ 35K - 70K
2 yrs living expenses in NYC (masters) = 35K

3yrs law school @ 40K = 120K
3 yrs living expenses in NYC (law school) = 55K

total debt = 470K

I feel bad for this guy, sort of. How much would that suck to graduate law school, pass the bar exam, and find out that the Character and Fitness Committee will not grant you a license to practice law? The thought of that happening to me, someone taking the bar exam this summer, is very frightening...and it sounds like he has been through a lot more than most of us. There should be some kind of system to allow people with questionable Character & Fitness issues to get a pre-clearance before deciding if they want to go to law school; there's no point to wasting 3 years of your life if they won't get you a license.

At the same time, there is a lot of blame to go around. Why did this guy never make a loan payment? Why was Sallie Mae continuing to give this guys loans despite his obvious inability to make payments?

108,

Not arguing, i totally agree with your point. I see no upside to having my kids work, unless its educational, rather than focus on what we are paying for. And we load up on all the loans we can get too, although we could pay for it.

tuition at Yale was about 4000 in 1978. It would have been even less in the 60's!!!! I worked some in 78 but couldnt come close to paying tuition and still make the grades.

Minimum wage was probably about 4 dollars, but tips count and Denny's was MUCH higher end in both absolute and relative terms in the 60s. STILL total props to your Mom. The only folks i knew who could work through school went to berkely, ut etc, where tuition in state was like 1600.

@107

Reminds me of Goodfellas...Out of a job? F* you, pay me. Temp lawyer? F* you, pay me. Legal industry shrinking? F* you, pay me. Can't get a construction job even? F* you, pay me.

Your name is Mystal? F*you, pay me.

I went to a state school and paid $6k/year. It was affordable, the school is one of the top in the country, and I graduated with $10k in debt. If you go to a private school for undergrad, you're getting ripped off.

UVA for free = priceless.

"Mr. Bowman concedes that he has never made a payment on his loans."

He may have a legitimate beef with the amount, but he certainly owes something. If there was any period of time where he was not entitled to a deferral, he should have been making payments. That he didn't = bad faith. This sounds like someone who is trying to game the system. Good for the NY bar.

All will be well.

The Market will provide.

Can you go one post without mentioning you went to HLS? Get over yourself.

130

You sir, are an idiot. Is that masters worth 105k (!!) when you either 1.) will probably not use it or 2.) could have gotten it at a school where you could get an assistantship and not have paid? Also, I can understand going to the best law school you might have gotten into - but why go to an undergrad that you have to pay full price for?!

The ATL post is horribly misleading. The problem has nothing to do with the amount of the debt, but rather the persistent failure to make any effort to repay it according to the terms of the loans. Breaking promises and neglecting obligations, are exactly the kind of character and fitness concerns that should be front and center for the bar.

81 - I have classmates like that too. They figured if they are going to be "that much" in debt, they might as well party it up. "What's a couple more thousand dollars?" Obviously they forgot all about the concept of interest.

And I don't buy for a second that people who take on debt have absolutely no choice. Who says you HAVE to go to law school right after undergrad? Find a job, save up some money (no one's saying you have to save the entire amount), repay some of your college debt before you take on more debt. It's not like your brain has an expiration date and you won't be able to study the law if you wait and save money for a few years. I worked for 12 years, saved like crazy, graduated from a T10 school with zero debt, didn't even touch my 401K, and felt no compulsion to sell my soul to a mega firm. Again, I'm not saying you have to wait as long as I did, but it's just simple economics - save up some money before you go spend more.

FIRST to say "this isn't news."

Third to say, where promissory estoppel guy?

FIRST to say to #41 - because of immigration laws in europe, dumbass.

Maybe a higher power was trying to tell him something with the medical situation, failing the bar three times, and his "off the face of the earth" routine where he didn't make a single payment? Like alter your career path and don't be a lawyer?

I'm sorry, but someone who gets their life together at 47(!) shouldn't be admitted in. Being a lawyer often means you are the most important agent for your client at one of the worst times in their life. If you can't pay your own debt off, how can you be trusted to be responsible with someone else in need? It seems like this guy, like so many others, sees being a lawyer as correlating with being rich. Unfortunately, that is not necessarily so as many solo practitioners can attest to.Even as a lawyer, it will take him many, many years to pay off his debt.

141, you're surprised that Elie Mystal is absolving yet another person from any semblance of personal responsibility for his own actions? Did you read his multiple student loan bailout posts? You must be new around here!

He's already so screwed, why not let him be a lawyer?

lol at 142 being a 43 y/o 3L

140 - jealous

130/148,

140 here - why would I be jealous with my undergrad, masters and law degree with no debt from any of it? (scholarships for tuition, work for living expenses)

Maybe a higher power was trying to tell him something with the medical situation, failing the bar three times, and his "off the face of the earth" routine where he didn't make a single payment? Like alter your career path and don't be a lawyer?

I'm sorry, but someone who gets their life together at 47(!) shouldn't be admitted in. Being a lawyer often means you are the most important agent for your client at one of the worst times in their life. If you can't pay your own debt off, how can you be trusted to be responsible with someone else in need? It seems like this guy, like so many others, sees being a lawyer as correlating with being rich. Unfortunately, that is not necessarily so as many solo practitioners can attest to.Even as a lawyer, it will take him many, many years to pay off his debt.

Maybe a higher power was trying to tell him something with the medical situation, failing the bar three times, and his "off the face of the earth" routine where he didn't make a single payment? Like alter your career path and don't be a lawyer?

I'm sorry, but someone who gets their life together at 47(!) shouldn't be admitted in. Being a lawyer often means you are the most important agent for your client at one of the worst times in their life. If you can't pay your own debt off, how can you be trusted to be responsible with someone else in need? It seems like this guy, like so many others, sees being a lawyer as correlating with being rich. Unfortunately, that is not necessarily so as many solo practitioners can attest to.Even as a lawyer, it will take him many, many years to pay off his debt.

Hiring a lawyer who took FOUR tries to pass the bar is like going discount bungee jumping.

I'm heading to Hastings myself this fall, and the first time bar passage rate there is about 85%. Congratulations champ, you're in the bottom 15% of your class. Two words: Golden gate.

The pro-Bowman folks are missing the fact that he never made a payment after law school. He was already in default when his jet ski "accident" took place.

#113 seems to be Bowman, but what happened to all those links. Perhaps the documents weren't so persuasive after all?

143, so should we adopt similar immigration laws?

154 - "DEY TOOK ARR JOBS!!"

152 - don't brag about Hastings, it makes you look dumber than a Hastings grad.

I am a jobless rising 3L at Michigan and I want to kill myself.

co-sign, 69

Only mistake he made was leaving school...should have just kept going and borrowing for another 30 years...

Let's all go to Begium and get some of those precious waffle factory jobs. European racism and xenophobia is about 100 x worse than American. As much you hollar 'they took ar jooobs," in the EU it is actually codified that you can choke a foreigner at will.

160 - you're misreading European law. In the European Criminal Code, you may NOT choke a foreigner at will. I am an LLM student and am VERY familiar with our statutes.

please see section 90 of the ECC..."[y]øu may chøke a föreigner ät will."

My parents own a small farm & business and work at it seven days week. Thy are proud people, and paid every dime of my education, both undergraduate and law school, with no loans. To do this they saved not a dime for their own retirement. Once in law school in NYC, life was as i'd never known it, expensive, intense, so I took loans so I could keep up. Some hot shots told me I was a fool to suffer through law school without enjoying my self as we were gong to have to work our asses off once out of school, and these were the best years of my life, So, I took $120,000 in loans over three years, all of it wasted. I have nothing to show for it, except regret, guilt, a deviated septum from relentless snorting, a broken engagement with a wonderful girl, who in one of my coked-up rages, I hit. The loss of respect and trust of my parents, the loss of two of my hometown friends who are friends with my ex, and now think I'm an asshole I have a big law job now, an apartment, no friends really, no girlfriend, and thanks to the cost of living and loans, no savings. My folks tried to give me what they didn't have. I essentially, by my choices, gave them the finger. I miss the closeness and respect of my family, the love of my girlfriend, my friends. I wish I'd never taken those loans so I could live the high life, which in actuality has proven to be the lowest of the low life. Man's Law be damned. I wish I'd stayed home on the farm.

163 - i like it, where is your blog?

I got a full ride at Golden Gate.

127- you should have gone to evening and gotten a day job to pay your way (at least partially) through law school. I don't think its an ethical issues, but you're going to have some huge payments.

Elie, you've been spanked pretty hard in these comments, deservedly so. I am very surprised you haven't edited the disgustingly misleading title to this post.

#163 here. I don't have a blog. This post just got me thinking and feeling.

"Putting yourself" through various levels of schooling does not mean taking out exorbitant amounts of loans to fund whatever lifestyle you think you're entitled to without, apparently, working at all. Furthermore, not everything is a right. You do not have the right to go off to London to receive an LLM; that is a luxury (and, incidentally, also a poor life decision).

As a woman I can safely tell you that this guy = loser.

163 - Nice. When can I see you on Oprah?

Hey 163/167, your comment got me thinking and feeling that you need a book deal. Call me.

guest

160 - what does Begium [sic] have to do with this conversation?

169 - great comment; graduate education (esp. a foreign llm) is not a right. i agree. but while we're at it, let's stop acting as if the legal world is pure talent rising to the top.

in law, winners are defined in court and at the negotiating table...not by the firm or school they attach their name to.

Typical Hastttings grad.

Just stop and think for a minute. What if this was a minority firefighter?

100/65 - What you are describing is pretty unlikely if you were paying taxes on your income. To be taking home more than $1000 a week, after a legal tipout, you would have had to have worked in a really good strip club, or a high end restaurant. Not some podunk town like Lansing Michigan or Champaign Illinois. So you weren't at a real state school. You were in New York, which would require a much higher standard of living. So to live without student loans, you would have had to have been taking home twice that.

More importantly, if you were really working "70-90" hours a week, while attending classes, you had a very small amount of time to sleep. Perhaps you managed this without chemical assistance, but you would be one of the very few waiters I met who tried it.

So basically, yes, if we cheat on our taxes, and use pharmacological assistance, maybe those of us who went to the one state school in New York City could manage your feat.

Good job. Slow clap. You're a real role model.

109 - You're quite pedantic about this, but you're basically just being an ass.

The phrase "worked my way through school" means "worked the equivalent of full-time hours to cover what scholarships and/or loans didn't." Maybe 3 people in a state school get a full ride. The rest of us have to piece it together.

I have no idea why you would think of this is some sort of lazy way out. But I presume it's because you thought your part-time job at Daddy's friend's boat club or whatever, counted as actual work. You have no idea. And if you tell me some sob story about night school in 1965, it will not change my opinion.

This is bull shit. Has this country really come to this where the govt can just deny a man the right to engage in honest livelihood as he chooses. This is all liberal paternalistic bs.
This guy should sue NY

Half the people in the US, half, make less than $60k a year. That's not uncomfortable, but even if you save 25% of your $50k annual salary, it will take almost 10 years to save up for law school.

I call bullshit on all the "my parents scrimped and saved" stories. If your parents were really able to save $10k a year for any amount of time, while paying housing and food costs, you were already pretty comfortable. (Or they had no mortgage, which, again, indicates they were much better off than most)>

Half the people in the US, half, make less than $60k a year. That's not uncomfortable, but even if you save 25% of your $50k annual salary, it will take almost 10 years to save up for law school.

I call bullshit on all the "my parents scrimped and saved" stories. If your parents were really able to save something like $10k a year, for any amount of time, while paying housing and food costs, you were already pretty comfortable. (Or they had no mortgage, which, again, indicates they were much better off than most)>

Incidentally, if I had started at 21, and saved 10% of my income every year, by the time I was 31, given regular raises based on past experience. I would have had a grand total of about $12,000. Yay thriftiness (and the joys of a creative career path).

I actually did use my $8000 in savings for a year's living expenses. It was, literally, a drop in the bucket, and I still graduated with six figure loans. You preachy jerks can shove it.

157 - so who is stopping you?

163 ==> Hilarious! Thanks for sharing.

180 - Did someone force you to borrow the money? If you don't like the terms, don't borrow. [The world needs ditch diggers too.] Such a child.

I'm not sure how, but in some way, this is Latham's fault.

What kind of an a-hole makes no effort to pay back $400,000 in student loans?

Sure the loan companies are crooks- I felt they really hosed me on my interest rates. But I am paying the loans back.

So I can understand if someone is burried in debt and making only partial payments- but it takes a really special type of person to just sit there with a shit-eating grin and keep amassing loan after loan and make no effort to pay any of it back while everyone else is making sacrifices to fulfill their obligations- I'm glad his day of reckoning came...

176, a lot of the "need based" scholarships are the equivalent of the lazy way out, because they are paid for by those who don't get financial aid.

#163 nailed life in the big law city. By trying to be The Man, circa MTV, via P-Diddy and law school, we end up
being copy cat nobodies with big loans to pay, who have no idea who we are and we've done so much drinking an drugging we can't remember who we were.

Word in the streets is: People who don't pay their loans back, without good cause, are crooks, and in this new world are going to become pariahs.

Word in the streets is: People who don't pay their loans back, without good cause, are crooks, and in this new world are going to become pariahs.

Word in the streets is: People who don't pay their loans back, without good cause, are crooks, and in this new world are going to become pariahs.

I'm commenter #43 on the NYTimes site. Up my 'recommended' tally.

you clowns can't have it both ways.

you want someone to regulate the legal profession to make it easier for the rest of us to make a living? well, it just happened.

the NY Bar did exactly what it should have done. this waterhead should never be a lawyer and he won't be. fin.

You go 69! Agreed with your post!

69 has summed up why this story is so crazy. Now I shall return to my 69.

163 - You are a poet. Return to the farm. BigLaw is a den of thieves. Nothing more.

haven't read any of the comments--this is sickening

163 - you're a self-pitying biggity bitch. I'm supposed to feel sorry for you because you did $100000 of blow? Man up and make amends, then move back to Walden pond.

#197 Eeeweeee. I want hook-up with you, you sound so compassionate and forgiving. what kind of lover must you be? I bet, since I duly note the time of your comment, that you left the bar alone, again, and are home watching uporn for the twozilliotth time, big hearted spender that you are. You need to make amends and go home to a person instead of your hand.

"176, a lot of the "need based" scholarships are the equivalent of the lazy way out, because they are paid for by those who don't get financial aid."

This makes no sense. You sound like one of the people who whine about their parents making too much money to qualify for assistance. You do realize that's not a problem for 2/3 of the population, right?

It's not like 2/3 of the population took something away from you by making less money than your parents. It's more like, you had a big advantage, but still somehow feel like you're getting screwed.

#199 You are so Correct! Thanks for clearing up their thinking. This topic has evoked so much from so many. Elie should create a topic based on the comments.

Europe? As in Italy, where the bar exam is a week long, and only people who have been "recommended" to pass actually pass?

The loan companies are crooks. They should be next on the block in front of Congress. Even Sallie Mae can't explain to me why it is my law student loan interest rates have tripled since I took them out. One of my lenders intentionally waited 2 months until after the interest rates went up to process my consolidation application. It's criminal. I am a midlevel associate and I have paid out over $900 a month since graduation and I have yet to make any sort of dent in the principle. When my biglaw firm freezes or reduces my salary yet again next year my debt will stay the same and rent and gas and everything else will go up. I constantly wonder whether it was worth it. I totally feel for this guy.

I am grateful I went to school in Australia. $20k in debt only and I can still practice in NYC.

I am grateful I went to school in Australia. $20k in debt only and I can still practice in NYC.

In it all, I concur.

Can you smell a stint of judicial activism in forcing the question of loans when the legislature is not doing anything to combat the unsustainable rise in education costs? $240K is not that difficult to amass: add a joint-degree, private undergrad. It used to be that education was a sure investment in one's future. Not anymore---it appears to be a business. Bowman's story is indicative that the status quo is not sustainable. Golden handcuffs are turning into iron shackles!

#203: get the fuck out of my country.

I don't know if Commentator #163 is a poet or not, but I've read all the comments here and his story grabs me, because he got grabbed by the most sinister of pulls: to be part of the gang. How many guys have we seen lose almost everything, their character, self respect, some their lives, to be part of some sick-assed fraternity. Later on, if they haven’t learned it’s BS, these same guys are the ones trying to buy respect/friendship by picking up the tab, like they were Donald Trump. (Of course, Trump never picks up the tab.) Or, they supply candy for the crowd, (like this guy probably did) dance on tables and make idiots out of themselves, while their supposed buddies, the real insiders, ridicule and egg them on. These guys far away from their families and core values, come into the game with character but feel so outclassed, they hand over their balls and there’s little they won’t do to belong. Some of them even marry girls they don’t care about, just to be part of the club. We won’t even go into their behavior at work. It’s pathetic.

But, even if he wants to, can he go back to the farm? Can any of us? I’m only twenty-six and I already feel I’ve taken so many wrong roads, I’m completely lost.

#206 - You have raised the BIG POINT, keep it raised Above The Law.

So, 183, you think people who have the potential to be lawyers but didn't come from money should be ditch diggers? How long do you think it would take to see a rise in serial killers or an increased crime rate b/c someone who didn't come from money actually HAD aptitude & didn't become whores, drug addicts or teen parents before leaving high school? It's very dangerous to let smart people linger around in poverty; I know if I'd stayed in my home town, I'd probably be in prison or dead due to anger, frustration and refusing to let where I came from define my life.

So this guy's only 'immoral' act is coming from a foster care system and not having a rich mommy and daddy to foot the bill for his law school education?!

Good volley #211! There are so many good arguments being made and on many sides this issue.

@84.....

If you don't like ATL, go elsewhere--trust that you will not be missed.

If I read the articles right, some of this debt is for a Master of Laws degree. Who does that with no bar admission and no job?