Breaking: Dr. Thio Is Not Coming To NYU Law
Update: Official NYU statement now available.
Details are still sketchy, but word on the street is that Dr. Li-ann Thio will not be coming to NYU Law School this fall. It appears that Dr. Thio has voluntarily decided not to serve as a visiting professor.
As many of you know, Dr. Thio has been heavily criticized by some in the NYU community (and beyond) for the allegedly anti-gay views she professed as a member of Singapore’s Parliament. But up to this point, Dr. Thio has enjoyed the support of Dean Richard Revesz and the NYU administration.
We previously reported that early returns showed low student registration for Dr. Thio’s classes this fall. A petition protesting her appointment garnered over 800 signatures. It’s too early to tell if any of this affected her decision to withdraw.
We will let you know when we receive official word from the law school or Dr. Thio.
UPDATE: The official announcement is now available. Check it out after the jump.
From: Office of the Dean
Date: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: Visiting Global Law Professor Li-Ann Thio
TO: NYU School of Law Community
FROM: Richard Revesz
RE: Visiting Global Law Professor Li-Ann Thio
DATE: July 22, 2009
I am writing to let you know that Professor Li-ann Thio informed me today that she is canceling her Fall visit to NYU School of Law as a Global Visiting Professor, explaining that she was disappointed by the hostility of some members of our community to her views regarding homosexuality and gay rights, and by the low enrollments in her classes. The Law School will therefore cancel the course on Human Rights in Asia and the seminar on Constitutionalism in Asia, which she had been scheduled to teach.
As I observed on July 9 in an earlier statement, this issue brings two of our core values—academic freedom and a commitment to non-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation—in tension with each other. On the one hand, NYU is fully committed to the principle of academic freedom and intellectual diversity. The Hauser Global Law School Program—under the auspices of which Professor Thio was invited as a visitor for one semester—grew out of our early recognition that the practice of law has escaped the bounds of any particular jurisdiction, and that legal education must take account of the intertwined nature of legal systems. The program seeks to expose our community to legal scholars who come from and have been shaped by their experiences in different countries, regions, and cultures. Needless to say, the value of the program would be seriously diminished if the visiting scholars all thought of difficult legal issues in the same way. We can learn from these visitors, and—we hope—they can learn from us.
NYU is equally committed to non-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. NYU and the School of Law extended partner benefits to gay couples long before New York law mandated such benefits. In 1978, NYU Law School became the first law school in the United States to deny access to its career services to employers who discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, a practice that the Association of American Law Schools would later require all accredited law schools to follow. We also were leaders in the suit brought by the Forum for Academic and Institutional Rights (“FAIR”) to challenge the Solomon Amendment.
Reasonable individuals can disagree about the relative importance of these values, as evidenced by the many thoughtful messages I have received over the last month regarding Dr. Thio’s appointment. I would like to take this opportunity to respond to some recurring questions I have received.
At the time that the faculty members voted on Professor Thio’s appointment, were they aware of the speech she made to the Singapore Parliament on October 23, 2007, forcefully arguing against the decriminalization of consensual sexual acts between men?
When the Global Appointments Committee met in December 2007 to recommend that the faculty vote a visiting appointment to Professor Thio based on her teaching and scholarship, none of its members was aware of the speech. The tenured and tenure-track faculty considered this recommendation during its meeting on January 30, 2008. I was not aware of her speech at that time, and I do not believe my colleagues were aware of it either.
Of course, an electronic search of her public statements would have produced the text of the speech. We did not conduct such a search in considering this appointment, and we have not conducted such searches in considering other appointments. Consistent with the norms of the legal academy, we generally limit our inquiry to the review of academic publications and works in progress, teaching evaluations, and reputation for collegiality.
Should the speech have played a role in the decision as to whether to invite Professor Thio to visit, had the faculty been aware of its existence?
The position taken in the speech should have been irrelevant to our evaluation of Professor Thio, although the argumentation supporting the position might properly have played a role in that evaluation.
Professor Thio’s position in that speech is inimical to the Law School’s position against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Nonetheless, I do not believe that Professor Thio’s opposition to our institutional position should have played any role in our evaluation of her. Leading academic institutions benefit greatly from a diversity of perspectives, not from hiring only people who share the same views.
At the same time, our evaluation of Professor Thio’s strength as a scholar might have been usefully informed by an assessment of the analytic cogency and methodological integrity of the arguments and evidence she marshaled for her position. It would be up to the individual faculty member to determine what, if any, weight to give to the speech to Parliament in judging her as a scholar.
After becoming aware of the speech to Parliament, did NYU Law School ask Professor Thio to withdraw?
It did not.
Should the Law School have revoked the offer once it became aware of Professor Thio’s speech before Parliament?
Once the faculty extends an offer (whether visiting, tenure-track, or tenured) to a professor, it does not revisit that particular offer by continuing to evaluate the strength of the individual’s work. To engage in such continuous evaluation would place an unsustainable burden on the faculty. Such a practice would also undermine the legitimate reliance interest recipients have in their offers. Of course, subsequent work or subsequently discovered work can and does play a role in determining whether future offers are made to that individual.
Should the Law School have revoked the offer once it became aware of Professor Thio’s recent comments to our students?
In the last few weeks, a number of members of our community wrote to Professor Thio to convey their objections to her appointment as a visiting professor. She has indicated that she considers some of these messages to be offensive. In turn, she replied in at least one case in a manner that many members of our community—myself included—consider insulting and hurtful. These exchanges have been posted on various blogs. Members of our community have questioned whether Professor Thio’s statements create an unwelcoming atmosphere that would have prevented students in her classes from having an effective educational experience.
Determining when the academic freedom of a professor is superseded by the need to preserve a viable learning environment for his or her students requires a difficult, case-by-case judgment based upon context, the history of the relationship, and many other factors. But it would be an extraordinary measure, almost never taken by universities in the United States, to cancel a course on the basis of e-mail exchanges between a faculty member and a member of the student body. To do so would eviscerate the concept of academic freedom and chill student-faculty debate. Professor Thio’s withdrawal makes it unnecessary for us to engage in that inquiry.
Should an academic opposed to the recognition of certain important human rights be allowed to teach a human rights course?
An academic’s views on a substantive issue should be irrelevant to his or her suitability to teach a course in a particular area as long as the opposing views are treated fairly in the classroom: A proponent or opponent of the death penalty can be equally qualified to lead a seminar on capital punishment, for example. Any other stance by a university would be a serious affront to academic freedom, would lead to endless political litmus tests, and would greatly impoverish academic institutions, which gain so much from the robust discussion of controversial legal issues. Moreover, we need to recognize that values that might be widely shared in U.S. academic institutions can be highly contested in other countries, and that any serious global educational program, particularly one dealing with international human rights, must pay attention to these differences.
Undoubtedly, the issues raised by Professor Thio’s appointment are among the most difficult faced by academic communities. What are the limits of academic freedom? How should an institution with a proud tradition—as is the case of NYU Law School’s support of the LGBT community—interact with those who disagree strongly with such a tradition? My answers to the questions raised by our community will not be persuasive to everyone. I also stress that they are my personal views, not the consensus view of any decisionmaking body at the Law School. But situations such as these, despite the serious pain that they inflict, also serve as learning experiences. I appreciate the thoughtful messages I have received from students, alumni, and others as the debate unfolded and I am sorry about the considerable pain many members of our community have felt during these discussions.
Earlier: NYU Professor of Human Rights: Not a Fan of Gay Rights? Also: Is anal sex like ‘shoving a straw up your nose to drink’?
Dr. Li-ann Thio: The good professor speaks — and so does NYU Law School
Dr. Li-ann Thio: Much Ado About Nothing?




Comments
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Of course she would not want to attend after the way she has been demonized over the past few weeks. No surprise here. Sad, but I doubt any professor would have been able to withstand this kind of abuse, which was the whole point of the protesters.
Just do it, make your Thio-breaker website. You know you want to.
"We will keep you posted as soon as we receive official word from the school or Dr. Thio." MORE TO COME ON THIO-BREAKER!
Thanks for lending a hand
If I was Dr. Thio, at the top of each hour I would punch myself in the face as hard as I could.
heterosexual athlete
Now I'll never get to see those hands in person!
I think what this website has done to her is inappropriate. What happened to open debate?
Thio has no place teaching in a liberal law school. Maybe she should teach at Fallwell's joke of a law school in Virginia. I bet they hate gays as much as she does.
You just know that she is a closet lesbian.
"Of course she would not want to attend after the way she has been demonized over the past few weeks. No surprise here. Sad, but I doubt any professor would have been able to withstand this kind of abuse, which was the whole point of the protesters."
No, it was Dr. Thio who demonized gay men making love, in graphic terms. She was then intellectually dishonest by recharacterizing her position as "being against the LBGT agenda". Consequently, she was criticized on this board and elsewhere. What did she expect?
She chose to go out in a public forum and graphically insult a private act of intimacy. So she should deal with folks expressing hate towards hatred and the hater. Suck it.
And by the way, it's embarrassingly obvious that Dr. Thio has been trolling on this comment board.
anyone else notice the guy humping the whale in the Seaworld ad? He looks like he's quite enjoying it....
...almost as much as this site enjoyed ruining this person.
I'm actually pro-gay, but people have a right to their opinions.
Still, I wonder why this one lady is SUCH a big deal on this site. I've seen more than a handful of posts on it -- this being the first I've actually read.
God, I hate when people use "impact" as a verb.
I am a liberal on most issues, but this is just disgusting. There is no such thing as freedom of speech in our country anymore. Kiss all that shit goodbye. You idiotic, fascist, totalitarian liberals have destroyed the principles this country was founded on. Fuck every last one of you idiots.
If your ideas are so "right" why not allow opposing ideas be heard? There is never a reason to silence somebody's opinion. EVER. EVER. Do you neo-Nazi fascists understand that? It is never ok to silence somebody you don't agree with.
Well, looks like you've succeeded. We're not going to have an open debate on homosexuality. What's next? Affirmative action? Abortion? Kiss all this shit goodbye. There is no such thing as academic freedom anymore.
5 - hilarious, never noticed that.
Diversity defeated. Sweet ass. Now let's all go watch some gay porn.
9,
Because Lat may or may not be dating a male flight attendant from Cambodia.
6 - don't be a moron. people like you who fully supported TTThio had plenty of airspace to vent their own talking points (check the comments sections). atl never told anyone to do anything in relation to thio. this is simply the free hand of the market...
NYU is such a joke. It was the one law school I got into that I couldn't even bring myself to visit.
16 = Brooklyn Law School Troll.
7, i was just thinking the same thing. she should go teach at some conservative shithole. unfortunately, they're all TTTs
This is BS. I for one, do not include the freedom to smuggle bologna while bitting the pillow to be a part of the penumbras and emanations of any concept of human rights or any human rights legislation.
BTW, Lat please clarify who is the gay homosexual in your relationship: you or your boyfriend. Inquiring minds want to know.
To this point Elie have shown everyone which sentence he wrote in this post.
Lat,
I'm going out on a limb here... you a booty pirate?
19 = TTThio?
I have always supported same-sex advocates because I didn't buy into the argument that they would harm society. This has opened my eyes though. Apparently they will try to prevent you from being employed if you disagree with their cause. Perhaps the same-sex movement is dangerous.
Worse: sodomite fascists or that dame's hands?
23, look at the harm this bitch has caused gays in her home country. if she loses a job over it i don't feel sorry for her. should nyu hire proponents of south african apartheid also?
23 - yes, and the blacks, jews, and women are dangerous too when they get out of line. they're all out to get you... better go get your gun.
25, then let the queer chinks in her country do something about it... over there!
11,
We must look at WHO is doing the silencing. This is NOT a, say it with me, STATE school. It is a private school and as such can do whatever it wants in this realm.
Further, I don't understand your logic. You say that we're neo-nazi fascists because we, used speech, to express a contrary opinion that WON in the public forum. It pressured Dr. Thio to (it seems) back out of the appointment. Our idea won. Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Nobody threatened her with physical violence or, considering how toxic her language was towards LGBT love making, said anything inappropriate. Furhtermore, and most importantly, the STATE did not silence her. Her own failed ideas and the resulting stigma associated with the controversy surrounding said ideas silenced her. She spoke, others spoke, her ideas lost and stigma was attacahed. How is that fascist? It's what is supposed to happen when ideas collide.
Just because YOUR IDEAS are put on a forum and lose does not mean you've been denied an opportunity or have been oppressed. LGBT ideas were laughed at, mocked, and scoffed at for DECADES by the majority of Western countries and lost out for years and years. Now most Western countries have, at least luke wamrly, embraced and accepted the ideas. More than 50% of the nation is okay with gay marriage, and it's more like 65% in younger demographics (i.e, the demographics that matter in terms of where the law is going). Thus, just because LGBT ideas are finally winning against ideas of hatred in the public forum, does not mean that LGBT people are doing anything threatening or illegal. More importantly, the STATE is not a party in the matter either.
Bigots had their day to shit on LGBT people and ideas. It's now our turn to defeat them. The moral arc of history at work, stand in awe.
Interpretation of 7's post:
Law schools that have a clear social and political bent are bad (Fallwell's law school);
Law schools that have a clear social and political bent are good (NYU);
Bad law school hates gays;
Lesbianism is an insult.
Does your firm let you take the Bar twice before canning you? You better hope so...
20 -- AWESOME.
I heard she cancelled because Singapore Air was going to make her buy an extra seat for her hands.
We win this round! In the next round, we convince the NAACP Board that the effeminate man's stuggle for the right to wear panties is equal to the struggle of the African American to achieve basic human rights.
Remember Stonewall
Remember Selma
Why are we on this topic, STILL, when there's just been a decision handed down that declared NYFD's tests to be discriminatory because they test such traits as "intelligence, aptitude, personality, commonsense, judgment, leadership and spatial ability."
http://ccrjustice.org/files/09.07.22_Garaufis%20Vulcans%20Opinion.pdf
at 51
I think it's ridiculous that some of you think Lat is trying to demonize Thio. Yes, LaTTT, the arrogant fruit, (Lat I'm just using words you said you love), tells everyone when he gets off the airplane that he was just sitting on his moneymaker. But let's be clear -- Lat loves his strong willed women even when they are very conservative. Heck, Lat was/is conservative himself. I suppose I'm one of the few people here who also read UTR, but Lat used to put up posts about judicial conservative divas like Janice Rogers Brown with an obvious message that they should be confirmed and not filibustered.
My guess is that Lat, aka "what, what, in the butt," disagrees with Thio but sorta adores her strong willed nature.
No 31, she needed to apply for a work visa for her hands.
You liberals make me sick. Fucking hypocrites--each and every one of you.
25 - Apartheid is an inapt analogy. If South Africa had discriminated strictly against people with straws in their noses, Sun City would've never made it to 38 on the Billboard charts.
Oh please. Boo hoo if she's backing out. If she has the courage of her convictions, she's welcome to continue to display her prejudice (to the 3 people still interested in attending her class (presumably she is better described as a professor of heterosexual rights)). Freedom of speech is alive and well. ATL has done an excellent job presenting the alternative point of view here.
I wonder if she gives absolutely fabulous hand jobs.
32,
Shut up. As a gay black man, people like you make me sick. Why divide minorities and "rank" who has had it worse? It's pointless. Besides, wasn't it MARTIN LUTHER KING JR who said that "a threat to justice anywhere, is a threat to justice everywhere."? From my understanding, this means that matters of equality are universal and as such, can be related to one another.
Further, didn't the CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT of the 1960s BORROW a lot of its rhetoric from ideas from world war ii and religion. Now correct me if i'm wrong, but one of the big drivers in civil rights was the embarassment americans felt in the USSR seeing images of how we treated a class (black members) of citizens unequally. Furthermore, religion was used to help help logistically organize (ie, people met in churches, raised money in churches) and as substantive arguments. So, from your thinking, blacks can USE religion and the cold war rhetoric and equate blacks inequality to that of Jesus and nuclear destruction/communism, but gays cannot borrow the experience of blacks in america to analogize? Get off your high horse.
-28
Why isn't there a band called Sodomite Justice?
Awesome when the LGBT persecutes people that have been persecuting them. Opposites attract I guess...doh!
She's not being silenced-- she's thinking of withdrawing. I think she's a maverick, like Sarah Palin.
This is a fantastic development! I personally have witnessed trangenders being turned away from the ballot box, flamboyantly dressed men made to sit at the back of the bus, water fountains for heterosexuals and separate fountains for homosexuals and bisexuals made to live in ghettos with dilapadated schools. We needed this victory to inspire our community. This battle may have been won, but the war continues.
42=phenomenal
@28
So if NYU, you know, not a STATE actor barred LGBT organizations on NYU's campus, that would be totally cool, right? I mean, they're not a STATE actor, suppress speech away!
Don't try to make this a legal issue about whether NYU can suppress certain speech. We both know this 100% political- don't try to make it something it's not. You won in the public forum. It wasn't a pyrrhic victory, but if you don't see why people are annoyed, even some who don't agree with Dr. Thio, you need to reconsider whether you actually hold some of the values you espouse.
In closing: what goes around...
28, the point is, liberals intimidated a person into not exercising their right to speech. This is like a black person getting invited to a white university and the whole faculty and students saying hateful things about them until they pulled out.
Obviously, liberals will disagree with my analogy because their positions are "right" and nobody else's are.
When is Thio going to appear on the O'Reilly Factor? That will be the sweetest day of all.
28, on the money, with one of the first non-kneejerk comments yet (other than the hands posts, which are objectively true).
If the subject matter was a bogus scientific proposition that could be objectively disproven, nobody would argue. But we have moral pontification here, which is inherently subjective and unprovable. All there is here is opinion, and this is what happens in the marketplace of ideas when opinions, rather than facts, collapse.
39: Take it to the NAACP. Try Googling NAACP and LGBT, or better yet, go to www.hrc.org. It is the black community, particularly black ministers, who are deeply offended by members of the LGBT community trying to equate their supposed victimization with what members of the black community endure every day.
Take your bitching and moaning to Fire Island, cuz few in the hood share your views.
45,
I'm not making this a legal issue, it was made a legal issue when some poster equated LGBT speakers to Nazis. At that point, I brought up 100% relevant legal truths.
If you want to talk about how this is political, then I'll say of course it is political. It's always political. It's all about who has power, more money, and a louder voice. The funny thing is though (and perhaps this is where objective truth, if it exists, comes in), those with power, money, and a voice will slowly turn to the side that is Right (capital R) and espouses the Truth. Dr. Thio can keep screaming until she's blue in the face, but the LGBT movement will not be derailed, that is, if there is any objective Truth in this world. Just as the civil rights movement could not have been. It sucks when the weaker and less powerful voice has the Truth, as LGBT members did for most of history. But things have changed. It sucked when we screamed and no one listened, but Truth eventually won out.
If you're arguing there is no truth, or that truth is unknowable, then what's the point of speaking or life in the first place. We have to keep coming back to ideas of Truth and liberalism, or else there's really no point in all of this, is there?
-28
45, stop your whining and go picket NYU for TTThio. Of course it's political. That doesn't mean people (including you) don't pick a side. Gays lose out in the private and public forum repeatedly. Do you empathize for them too (probably not)? Everyone does at some point. So what? Stop being annoyed and demand a revolution if you want TTThio's hands to caress you. In fact, if you're so annoyed about it, hire her to give you a back rub while she tells you of the evil of sticking straws up your nose.
Free speech is overrated, and we are all going to be living under china rule soon anyway, so get used to it
I applaud NYU for their HANDling of this situation.
Who's playing the victim now, biznitches? That would be you, you hapless conservatives. Whine. Whine. Whine. Woe is me. Why won't those mean gays treat Dr. Thio with the respect that she DESERVES?!?!?
ANSWER: Because WE'RE NOT ONE OF HER FANS!!!!!!!!!!!
-- Laywer Gay, aka Christina Crawford
I love it when conservative voices are utterly destroyed in the marketplace and silenced. I find such events to be more pleasurable than sex. Thio cam whine all she wants about the "harassment" and "intimidation" she suffered, just like creationist/intelligent design proponents in academia do, but the sad truth is that they are all fucking morons and deserve every moment of abuse, derision, and pity they receive. So amusing.
46,
It happens all the time at private (and i'd argue, illegally at public) universities. While most top schools have courses in African-American studies, etc, most smaller private schools don't. Ever heard of Bob Jones University? Until a decade ago interracial dating on campus was outlawed. There's an example of a private actor acting hella racist.
Speaking, more relevantly, of LGBT professors being silenced, look to basically any religious school. I'm especially thinking of my undergrad alma mater Notre Dame. It's a really sad place concerning LGBT issues.
At the end of the day, discrimination happens. I'm just happy that one of the student body at one fo the leading institutions in the USA (dare i say, the world?) mounted pressure against a bigot.
-28
46,
no. you're wrong. and I'm right. and this is the correct analogy:
this is like a singapore person getting invited to an american university and she says offensive things about many people at the university so the whole faculty and students say things that offend her until she pulls out.
that's not discrimination,
that's diplomacy, bitch.
"singapore person"? You can't be right.
Let's all agree to feel bad for her wrists and move on.
I think she makes some really good points in the speech that everyone is so mad about:
http://singaporecritic.blogspot.com/2007/11/two-tribes-go-to-culture-war-by-dr-thio.html
39, you STFU. Obviously 32 is a troll, but as a straight, black man I for one am tired of every pervert and oddball trying to co-opt the struggle of a group of people that they themselves discriminate against. Gays (whites, asians and hispanics) are incredibly racist towards blacks. White women... same thing. Yet both these groups won't hesitate to equate their "struggles" with some Negroes getting their asses beat and lynched for the right to vote. Hell, I'm black and I admit that I have no way to identify with my what my parents and grandparents went through.
54: Are you Christina Crawford, 125 Broad Street
Room 2513, New York, NY 10004? Graduated in 2006? Practicing in NY, but only Licensed in Connecticut? Is that you?
Better to be black or gay?
Discuss.
Homosexuality is a sin. But... so is punishing people for sinning. Remember when the Pharisees asked Jesus if they should civilly punish the adulteress? "He who has no sin, cast the first stone."
This lady is a hypocrite. That being said, this country is run by hypocrites who take marital tax benefits away from people based on sexual preference. They also arrested me for smoking kanehbosm.
I'm pretty sure 39 is Mystal.
62,
gay. much easier to stay in the closet.
Black Justice > Sodomite Justice
62,
I don't know. They say homosexuality is a trait you're born with. Well, Negroes are born to steal, drop out of school, rob, steal, sell drugs and just be plain self-destructive and dysfunctional.
Discuss
60,
Way to address the substantive merits of my argument. It is true that the civil rights movement used, borrowed, co-opted, and in any other way possible obtained help and support from any possible resources and movement. MLK, Malcolm X, and other leaders, in speeches, books, and letters equated the civil rights movement to the lynching of jesus christ himself, to the horrors of world war i, to the horrors of world war ii, as an antagonistic force of the cold war (ie, america preached equality against the ussr but did not treat its own citizens equally), as similar to women obtaining the right to vote. The list goes on and on. furthermore, it happily accepted support from white women (remember the white women who agreed to help support the bus boycott by driving blacks around while their husbands were at work?) or young white liberal college students (remember the "freedom rides"? they were primarily white. sure, blacks would show up if they were in the city, but the buses were loaded with whites from the north) (or do you remember the killings of white NAACP lawyers? their stories are kind of famous).
so before yuo start this holier than thou, blacks earned the civil rights movement on their own line, study up just a little bit. i'm not trying to take anything away from my fellow black brothers, but we didn't do it alone.
-28/39
62,
It's such a hard tradeoff. If I'm white and gay, I get more social benefits in the long run. If I'm black , I'm more likely to get a BigLaw job even though my main qualification is the color of my skin.
It's a toss-up. Having more upward social mobility in the long run (white) or having a better gig straight (no pun intended) out of law school. It all depends on if you're a short-term investor or a long-term investor.
Ah...what the hell...I'm going to finally unwrap that Lil' Wayne CD and say it's better to be black....
enough with the flagrant racism. Its not only offensive, it is the mark of a truly unenlightened group. Can I say "let's be better than that" without getting destroyed by subsequent comments
Oh, "Thio have enjoyed the support" of the dean, really? FUCKING READ THINGS BEFORE YOU POST THEM. YOU HAVE A LAW DEGREE. STOP POSTING INCOMPREHENSIBLE SHIT.
I think I'm the only one who gets 70's joke....
"a truly unenLIGHTened group"
Great use of irony.
Bored now.
68,
Are you saying that comparing the systemic lynchings, church bombings and rapes with say the torment and discrimination of the Jews is the same as comparing what a bunch of queers go through today to what blacks went through during better part of the 20th century? If so... STFU and go bite a pillow.
68,
I am not very religious, but I dont think Jesus was lynched. I think he might have been crucified. I am not sure.
71,
It's quite possible that Dr. Thio counts as two people, thus making the use of "have" appropriate (particularly since Singapore is more in like with the British way of conjugating verbs).
Is it just me, or is Michelle Obama incredibly fucking ugly?
Discuss
Thio's [hands] have [required] the support [of Singapore's finest structural engineers for many years].
Is it just me, or does Thio have rediculously big hands in this picture?
Props to 75...I haven't heard the word "queers" since the late 80s.
28/39/68
Then I assume your cool with rebranding the organization as:
NAACPLGBT
Further, you're cool with giving middle aged, white cross-dressers seats on the board with Julian Bond, Roslyn Brock, et al.
If so, then man up and say so.
Thank you 68,
60 as another Black person, I don't feel there is anything wrong with finding similarities in the struggle. Whenever any minority group is being victimized, they should clearly be able to borrow arguments from a group that has faced similar struggles. No one is likening outlawing sodomy to the slave trade, but in the same breath, outlawing activity akin to who you inherently are isn't so dissimilar to poll taxes (with regard to the restriction of fundamental rights). I thought your response was very stereotypical and extremely misinformed. Try not to make us all look militant and hostile the next time you post. That goes for you too, Elie. Thnx.
Agreed 77. But you state the obvious. If you want to impress me, tell me just how ugly she is. I expect a graphic comparison of her to some creature from a popular sci-fi movie (I'm thinking predator)
77,
This white man thinks she's hot.
Sorry.
MOAR BAREHANDS!!!
75,
I hope your black/white, either/or mind can keep up. Here we go. It is the SAME in terms of it all being discrimination, inequality, and unjustified oppression. If you applied the word DISCRIMINATION to all categories, all categories would fulfill the requirements of the defintiion. However, the degree is NOT THE SAME.
In normative arguments, ie, about "equality," degree is irrelevant. So no, I would not walk down the street and say "the gassing of the Jews, or the civil rights movement is equivalent to the oppression of gays" because that would CONNOTE equality of degree. However, if I were speaking to an intelligent person, who could see past the knee-jerk conflation of term with degree, and see the underlying principle of inequality in relating both subjects, I would.
Here, it is clear that I gave you too much credit. You can't get past the numbers to see the underlying idea. My mistake, I expected too much from you.
-68
81,
Your suggestion to rename the NAACP creates an anachronism of sorts. I mean, if they're going to include CP in the name, then you shouldn't put LGBT in the name. It should probably be
NAACPQ
The Q gets grandfathered in (no pun intended) just like the CP.
Just my advice.
MOAR BAREHANDS!!!!
84, you lie like a Persian rug. This white man is insulted by your statement. White men actually have taste. They only date black women for one reason and one reason only: easy pussy. A black girl will open up the legs like a pair of automatic doors.
81,
I think your request for 28/39/68 to "man up," is asking too much out of a gay man.
I really don't understand why some African-Americans get so bent out of shape if another group of Americans are trying to fight for their rights. Certainly most gays I know are not comparing our struggles to those of other groups. All we are saying is that we have in the past been marginalized and pushed to the side by society -- by blacks, whites, asians, etc. And we are not going to sit back and take it anymore.
Too many people still get shunned by their families because of their sexuality. Too many people still kill themselves every year because they are gay. Too many people try to destroy themselves with drugs, drink and risky sex to bury the shame of being gay.
It is not a competition as to who has suffered the most. But to say we have not suffered is to be totally ignorant.
NAACPLGBT has a nice ring to it. Are there any transgenders on death row whose cause we can rally around?
91,
I think "sitting back" and "taking it" has been the issue all along. Refusing to do so is probably the best course of action. Well done.
Haha. Go back to a third world country steeped in the ignorance and "traditionalism" of its ancestors and pretend like you're relevant to first world culture/politics/law.
Thio had no place giving lectures, never mind a professorship, in any country that rates higher than a forgotten post-colonial relic. Maybe her mom can get here a lawyerin' job.
By the way, gays were gassed in the Holocaust as well. A fact often pushed to the side in these discussions.
-- 91, aka Lawyer Gay
75 is a shining example of a black bigot.
94,
You could be correct in everything you say about Dr. Thio, but you lose ALL credibility by calling Singapore the Third World. You ignorant dumbass. Get out a map, go to wikipedia, and freaking educate yourself on the grand city-state that is Singapore before you open your ignorant, high-minded mouth.
95,
Yeah, but gay Jews also seriously put out in the concentration camps...
What's worse being gay and black or gay and Jewish?
Damn, look at the size of that woman's hands. What are the chances that her fingers are larger then her husband's Asian penis? I'd say 90%, at least.
I want to have 2 wives. If you deny me my right to do so you are a homophobe, a racist jerk, and a fascist.
91:
You stated:
"Too many people still kill themselves every year because they are gay."
You're right--straight people never kill themselves. It's probably because suicide hotlines screen for, and then refuse help to, gays.
"Too many people try to destroy themselves with drugs, drink and risky sex to bury the shame of being gay."
Yep, strictly a gay thing. Heteros never have unprotected sex, drinking away problems, do drugs, etc.
You've convinced me--Gays are really F*cked up.
I agree with many that the treatment was ridiculous; however, I officially declare that people who preface their arguments "I am usually liberal on most issues" or "I am a democrat, but" should be shot in the face.
That gives your argument less strength and frankly lives up to this new ridiculous theme that if you aren't following the liberal train, then your ideas are not intelligent.
Liberal fascism at its finest.
Define, gay. It is unclear what you all are talking about.
Farty Boston Chick
Do straights kill themselves for being straight, 101? The US Department of Health has found that gay youth are 2 or 3 times more likely to attempt suicide than straight youth.
Now, stop being a 'tard. Thanks.
-- Lawyer Gay
With President Obama's health care plan crashing into a big fiery heap of dung, now is the time for him to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". He can preface his remarks at the Rose Garden signing celebration by declaring that he thinks a man in uniform is sexy.
And by the way, if you live in a district represented by one of those treasonous "Blue Dog" democrats, now is the time to recruit a true liberal to run against him/her in 2010. We MUST flush the party of non-believers.
If Dr. Thio will not make it, I want Dr. Phat Dong in her place!
Stop discriminating against orientals!!!!
Lots of guys in my high school shoved a straw up their their nose to drink. It was no big deal.
@46:
This is not "like a black person getting invited to a white university and the whole faculty and students saying hateful things about them until they pulled out."
This is much more like a racist person getting invited to a university and the whole faculty and students saying angry things about the person's racist ideas until they pulled out.
There really is a difference between attacking an inherent trait of a person and attacking bigoted speeches they make.
Also, as far as I know, NYU did not tell Thio not to come--she hasn't been censored. She's choosing not to come because, ostensibly, she realizes that no one wants to hear what she has to say, or that people here will at least defend themselves by speaking against it.
These distinctions are important. No one threatened her. All anyone did here (on the LGBT side) is speak back, albeit with louder voices.
99,
Seems like you had your shares and experiences with asian penis.
You must be one of the perverts that Thio was talking about LOL
PE's mom makes him Peppridge Farms French Bread Pizza for dinner while he studies for the bar.
108--
It was no big deal because you stuck straws up your butthole.
Lawyer Gay (aka Christine Crawford, aka CT Lawyer practicing law without a license in NY):
You should spend less of your time on ATL and more time studying for the NY Bar.
THIOBREAKER!
19, 74: go shoot some hoops, yo!
113, please rent Mommie Dearest and shut up about the poor Connecticut lawyer practicing in New York. Thank you.
-- Lawyer Gay, aka Christina Crawford, aka Joan "This Ain't My First Time At The Rodeo, Fellas" Crawford's daughter
Two key points:
1) Ding, dong, the witch is dead!!!
2) John Lewis says that gay rights = civil rights. 'Nuff said.
94 = Dr. Thio
And she sounds like Lando Calrissian when she brags about her homeworld.
I've watched the Youtube video of Doctor Thio, and as a caucasian man, can say I find her very smart and attractive. Would love to date her and see where it goes from there.
TTTietlen Ho!
Lawyer Gay:
You appear to have some serious issues. You should seek help.
A concerned friend.
116 = a twisted, bitter transgendered she/man.
If all the summer associates received personalized Snuggies as a parting gift, you may not work for a peer firm.
If your managing partner wears a cowboy hat and insists on being called "Big Daddy", you may not work for a peer firm.
119,
Really? You find her attractive. Awwwww. You must be a very cute and nice "caucasian" man.
That is so sweet that you like an intelligent woman. You must be so sensitive. You are swooning women everywhere! You are super cool dude. I bet you must be a nice catch, since you don't value a woman just on her looks. You're so sweet!! OMG! = )
Dummy......
113: Passive-agressive, Rightwing-fascist, asking-to-get-his-balls-cut-off pussy who isn't man enough to carry out his threat
Signed, bad-ass Liberal who will Fuck you up if you give me any shit
(The days of wimpy liberals are OVER, you little shit.)
If your corporate card is issued by Diners Club, you may not work for a peer firm.
117: I agree with John Lewis. Fashionable gay men being unloaded from Swedish ships at Key West to work as cigar rollers in Little Havana is a sad part of our history.
This is so cool.
Her engorged hands with its tumescent fingers trembled as they swelled uncontrollably with unbridled excitement in anticipation of the ecstasy of clapping in the emptiness of her NYU lecture hall.
126,
YES!! We must have REVOLUTION--a revolution of the heart!!!
But before we do, we must have a TOTAL ECLIPSE OF THE HEART!!
Liberals 1, Constitution 0
113: Passive-agresive, Ritewing-rascist, asking-to-get-his-balls-cut-off poossy who isn't man enough to carry out his thread
Signed, bad-ass Liberal who will Fuck you up if you give me any shoot
(The days of wimpy liberals are OVER, you little shit.)
132 - to what part of the Constitution are you referring? Signed, not a liberal.
113: Passionate-agressive, Rootwing-fascist, asking-to-get-his-hair-cut-off wussy who isn't woman enough to carry out her threat
Signed, bad-ass, illeterate, moron Liberal who will Fuck you in the ass if you give me a cup of shit to eat like ice cream
(The days of wimpy liberals are ROVER, my dog, a lovable little shit.)
Gay smelly Boston chick or Black smelly Boston chick?
Discuss and diagram.
I wouldn't mind having Dr. Thio teach at WESTERN STATE UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF LAW......
125---
LOL....Epic P3wnage
Laywer Gay aka 126 aka Joan Crawford here.
133/135 was not me. My tirade was much more hysterical and unhinged. 133/135 is just tying to mock me and make me look stupid. I think he/she succeeded.
Hence, I surrender. That is all.
137,
Dr. Thio is teaching at Western State University College of Law!?
I hope she teaches Federal Income Tax. Have you seen the Fed Tax teacher at Western State University College of Law???
If your holiday bonus involved a membership in the "Jerkey of the Month Club", you may not work for a peer firm.
I see a lot of sourpuss conservatives demeaning what has happened. How is all the uproar an infringement on speech and debate?
1. She had her opinion. 2. She voiced her opinion. 3. Some people disagreed. 4. Those in disagreement voiced their opinion. 5. She was shamed into stepping down.
This is exactly how free speech is supposed to work. The government didn't step in. There were no personal threats (so far as we know - and if there were, those making the threats should be punished). There was a clash of viewpoints, and one side couldn't hold her ground, and will soon come out of the closet as a neophite, fully-fledged Asian lesbian.
We all win.
absolutely shameful. the professor's views are perfectly legitimate (and accepted by a multitude of americans). a classic example of the blatant double standards of the so-called "tolerant." what a shame.
Her hands aren't that big. She just has them way closer to the camera. Idiots.
143 is right. The fact is that the LGBT mafia will stamp their feet and scream and yell and intimidate, and then voters will go into the voting booth ala Prop. 8 and tell the LGBT community: FUCK YOU!
142 is dead on, except I don't think this is liberal v. conservative. I think it's common sense liberal (rejecting the notion that a private institution should allow an anti-LBGT professor teach a human rights class) v. the kind of liberal that has been fed the free speech line from the womb, but has never set foot in a law school, much less read the First Amendment.
Signed, not a liberal.
If your marketing materials include a testimonial from Normal Fell, you may not work for a peer firm.
143,
Being "tolerant" of bigots means that I don't outlaw their bigotry. She is intolerant, because she outlawed private, consensual acts between adults. She then voiced stupid reasons for her policy choice. I don't think what she did should be against the law. I don't think it should be against the law for a public or private university to hire her. I do think that if a bigot like that were hired at my workplace, or asked to teach at my alma mater, I would find a new job or make donations elsewhere. But I wouldn't pass a law trying to prevent her from getting a job.
That is the difference between being intolerant, and voting with your feet, your words, or your money.
If your health insurance excludes coverage for bear attacks, you may not work for a peer firm.
I would not want to make her mad and then have her slap me in the face. She could kill somebody like that.
Did anyone else noticed that this post was co-written by David Lat and Elie Mystal?
I was unawares that Elie decided to keep his maiden name.
First to comment that I get her ass.
126 = epic faggot.
Everyone knows two homosexuals and two quarters don't add up to a dollar.
NYU Law must have turned down her request for a hand lotion stipend. She must go thru gallons in a day.
The gay mafia wins again. Lat, I'm looking at you.
49 - You'd be hard pressed to find a civil rights icon today that looms larger than John Lewis--former chairman of SNCC and an organizer of the first Selma to Montgomery march, where he was brutally beaten leaving a large scar across his head.
"We are now at such a crossroads over same-sex couples' freedom to marry. It is time to say forthrightly that the government's exclusion of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters from civil marriage officially degrades them and their families. It denies them the basic human right to marry the person they love. It denies them numerous legal protections for their families.
This discrimination is wrong. We cannot keep turning our backs on gay and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry.
...
Sometimes it takes courts to remind us of these basic principles. In 1948, when I was 8 years old, 30 states had bans on interracial marriage, courts had upheld the bans many times, and 90 percent of the public disapproved of those marriages, saying they were against the definition of marriage, against God's law. But that year, the California Supreme Court became the first court in America to strike down such a ban. Thank goodness some court finally had the courage to say that equal means equal, and others rightly followed, including the US Supreme Court 19 years later."
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/10/25/at_a_crossroads_on_gay_unions/
142,
While it's right that the "vote with your feet" is free speech, I think the broader concern is that the consequences associated with holding the minority view have become somewhat extreme. In other words, the logistics of free speech aren't producing the results people expect from them.
No professor of astronomy could get hired espousing the belief that the earth revolves around the sun - it's wrong on that point, and anyone believing it is necessarily wrong on a host of other demonstrable facts. But outside of demonstrably false things, shouldn't there be an effective voice for alternative, even extreme minority, viewpoints? And if not academia, then where?
The result ends up being a polarization where one group has their think tanks and law schools, and other groups have their own, and it seems like balkanization rather than engagement. Coupled with that problem is the idea that the rhetoric voting down someone like Dr. Thio (bigot, etc.) necessarily imply the sort of "truth" that you get with astronomy. The problem with the "liberal" MO is that you are "backwards," "ignorant," or "hateful" if you don't hold to a belief that's not quite as rock solid as 2^2 = 4. It doesn't sound like intellectual engagement anymore; it starts to sound like a witch hunt.
Look, Dr. Thio's firing isn't the end of civilization. And in this case, there's some shoddy intellectual product that might justify such a result. And it's hard to get motivated to protect the interests of someone who has (to my personal mind) suppressed others' interests. It's just one person who has plenty of alternative fora in which to spew whatever thing comes to mind next. But I think the problem is what happens when this gets taken to an extreme - I think it's easy to see groupthink writ large from this view.
158,
I think the problem with that view is her beliefs and actions have to do with the personhood and individual rights of living human being who suffer greatly because of her and her ilk. The school has an anti-discrimination policy, and gay and lesbian students who attend want to be safe there.
Being a woman, I wouldn't want to be subjected to grading by a man who thought women were inferior. And I wouldn't want to spend time in his classroom.
I would hope that men who cared about women would do the same. Just as I would hope, and am heartened by the fact, that fellow straights have stood up for their gay and lesbian classmates.
Layoffs at Fulbright (LA) today. Get on it.
157-- TL DNR
This one bothers me. I think her views are loathsome and have been expressed in decidedly non-scholarly language (straw up your nose? the screed in the Parliament? WTF??!) And the way she handled the criticism -- by going on an intolerant-sounding attack rather than a reasonable response -- is not what reasoned debate is about. As a professor, one would hope that she would understand what dialogue is about.
At the same time, I can't shake the feeling that this ended up being a heckler's veto. Wasn't it? That's not what academia should be about, either.
Maybe we should just cane the soles of her feet.
Cane her hands off.
159,
I'm all with OUTLAW and the recent trend towards liberalization, but what this ends up sounding like is that there are a certain class of beliefs that because of their special character (believes in suppressing the rights of others) deserve no protections.
In essence, you have to sip the kool-aid to justify the condition - you have to believe that it's suppressing the rights of others to believe it's a special harm worthy of no protection. So to justify no debate, you have to assume no debate is possible on this point. It attempts to equate a particular vision of rights of others - social theories - with demonstrably untrue facts. That kind of bootstrapping is an intellectual slippery slope.
164 - We could debate interracial marriage, but that doesn't mean that I want someone that doesn't believe in it teaching a course on human rights.
Not enough gays kill themselves.
lat...why dont you celebrate by sticking your penis in someone's rectum
We could debate constitutional originalism, but that doesn't mean that I want someone that doesn't believe in it teaching a course on constitutional law.
97 - Just because a country has clean streets doesn't make it first world.
Might want to check up on your aesthetic.
94
Because originalism is a fundamental human right? Or even a fundamental principle of constitutional interpretation, which the disbelief in is antithetical to a course in constitutional law?
Get back to fucking work. Yes, we have IP logs. Yes, we have keystroke logging. So..... GET. BACK. TO. FUCKING. WORK.
PE is a law student or a first year with time on hands.
I'm not.
So,
GET. BACK. TO. FUCKING. WORK.
And, as long as I'm slumming,
DON'T. FUCKING. TALK. TO. ME. IN. THE. ELEVATOR. DON'T.
We could debate constitutional originalism, or we could get that lady to finger our butts with her dick.
168 - I don't see how the two are similar. A belief in the criminalization of homosexual acts or interracial marriage is repugnant to any modern conception of human rights. Differing views on freedom of speech, healthcare, or the death penalty within the human rights field are more akin to the debate in constitutional law as to the proper method of constitutional interpretation. A more appropriate analogy would be having a Trotskyite or fascist teaching a course on constitutional law. What I’m trying to say is that you have the intellectual prowess of Dr. Thio, and that isn’t meant as a complement.
The ironic thing here is that Dr. Thio's message has undoubtedly been more widely disseminated by this forum than it would have been if she had anonymously taught a semester at NYU. Way to go ATL!
Legalize gay.
Pr. Thio has no right to be teaching a human rights class at NYU. The students expressed their views by not enrolling in her class.
NYU Law statement out now - see the update.
Nice work Lat!
177 = Lat
It is a good statement, clear and concise and logical. Props to Dean Revesz.
177 +178 Lat masturbation combopunch
Oh really 148? I've seen plenty of homosexuals sue to get private individuals who don't believe in homosexuality. The homosexual couple that filed a "human rights" complaint in New Mexico when a Christian photographer wouldn't photograph their homosexual "wedding" and the California doctor who wouldn't do artificial insemination for a homosexual couple come to mind.
all you dipshits saying this is an affront to freedom of speech have it backwards. this is a triumph of freedom of speech
the students spoke with their bids that this kind of class is not wanted at the law school.
nobody's saying she can't teach it or think whatever she wants, they just said they're not interested.
Just curious on the nomenclature in this blog, is it fair for say, 153 to say "epic faggot" and it not get moderated, and yet and "epic negro" or "epic oriental" not to be?
Mistress Thio must know.l
173, I don't buy the argument that anything is outside the realm of acceptable debate.
Let's just wait for the strong reactions, protests, boycotts, etc. when NYU hires a left-wing loon as a visiting professor. Oh yeah, that's right -- there won't be any batshit crazy overreactions, and the NYU community will gladly embrace those beliefs, no matter how non-mainstream and how controversial just because they're insane beliefs of the left, not insane beliefs of the right.
Whether or not you agree with Thio (and important to note that most conservative posters feel that her views go too far), this is a very sad day for intellectual diversity and the idea that the academy should be a place for freedom of speech, exchange of ideas, and open discourse. Clearly, the lesson learned is that enough overt antagonism and hostile confrontation (how many prior NYU visiting profs were blasted before even stepping foot on campus like Thio has been) is more than capable of silencing speech. I don't blame Thio for quitting -- even as a moderate conservative, I wouldn't want to step anywhere near NYU if its student body is so ridiculously hostile to beliefs that aren't part of the mainstream liberal dogma. Yes, Thio's beliefs were "out there," but not any more so than the crazy left-wing beliefs held by a plurality (if not a majority) of tenured profs.
As another previous poster pointed out, human rights in Asia aren't exactly in a great state of affairs. In theory at least, Thio would have offered perspective on them in a more critical (as in, not just a wishy washy pie-in-the-sky -- we believe everyone should have all possible rights, impossibly idealistic way). Instead, NYU's student body wants to live in its fantasy world where its beliefs are the only legitimate way of looking at things, and anyone opposed to them is wrong, a bigot, a racist, homophobic, etc. That's great for your time at NYU, but when you enter the real world, things aren't so black and white, and it actually is a useful skill to be able to debate controversial issues with people and consider other perspectively, instead of blindly believing you're right and shutting anyone down who disagrees. Once again, great job NYU.
185 -- what kinda hands we talking on this hypothetical lefty prof?
We all know how the good doctor feels about anal sex - now what we really need to know is: how does she feel about FISTING? And more importantly, how does her partner feel about it...?
Awesome statement from the Dean. Love how he basically states that they wouldn't have hired had they known about the speech, not b/c they would have thought she was a bigot but b/c they would have thought she was an IDIOT.
185 - Aren't there winners and losers in the marketplace of ideas? The school didn't pull the plug on her. The students there said they weren't interested and let her know what they thought of her ideas. When she saw that the marketplace of ideas at NYU had rejected her views, she voluntarily left. To me, it is a triumph of free speech. The market was efficient. Would you instead have us subsidize ideas that don’t stand on their own accord?
185,
The next time NYU (or any other law school) hires as a visiting professor a scholar who believes that certain of his or her students are lower life forms because of some moral dogma, please let us know.
Also, the real world is even more dangerous of a place to Thio than her Singapore elite fantasy world. [GASP] She might actually encounter a real gay person in the real world. And yes, 185, anyone who has made the same kind of statements as Thio did in her speech to Parliament is a bigot, an idiot, a homophobe, and generally should be silenced, or at least openly mocked for all of eternity. I graduated from a top law school and work at a top firm (note: I'm still at work) and would love to dedicate the rest of my life to ensuring that people like Thio are forever silenced. The world would be a much better place.
I'm sad to see the comments not really addressing the substance of Prof. Thio's speech to the Singaporean parliament. there was a lot there that was hard to argue against. this point is totally outside of the fact that I think NYU would be much better off having a professor of human rights who didnt think the same as most other professors of human rights at law schools. everything should be debated if it cannot be definitively proven. Evolution - theres great arguments on both sides. Abortion, same. Homosexuality as a good or bad - reasonable minds can always differ, and have good arguments on both sides. That said, I consider myself a smart and reasonable person and had trouble arguing against Prof. Thio's statements because they were pretty well thought-out and had some merit to them. I am man enough to admit, and humble enough, to conceed to better arguments when I find them. Dr. Thio's views did not change my own, but I find it compelling that there is so little substantive talk on her specific points, probably because they are pretty air tight for the most part. But then again, she doesnt address every argument on the other side and may have trouble refuting all counterarguments as well. Both but sides are at least deserving to be presented to the students of NYU without hating the messenger of either view, especially in something as important as academia, where like journalism, the free thinking ethos of our society is protected.
I'm sad to see the comments not really addressing the substance of Prof. Thio's speech to the Singaporean parliament. there was a lot there that was hard to argue against. this point is totally outside of the fact that I think NYU would be much better off having a professor of human rights who didnt think the same as most other professors of human rights at law schools. everything should be debated if it cannot be definitively proven. Evolution - theres great arguments on both sides. Abortion, same. Homosexuality as a good or bad - reasonable minds can always differ, and have good arguments on both sides. That said, I consider myself a smart and reasonable person and had trouble arguing against Prof. Thio's statements because they were pretty well thought-out and had some merit to them. I am man enough to admit, and humble enough, to conceed to better arguments when I find them. Dr. Thio's views did not change my own, but I find it compelling that there is so little substantive talk on her specific points, probably because they are pretty air tight for the most part. But then again, she doesnt address every argument on the other side and may have trouble refuting all counterarguments as well. Both but sides are at least deserving to be presented to the students of NYU without hating the messenger of either view, especially in something as important as academia, where like journalism, the free thinking ethos of our society is protected.
NYU gets points for extreme class.
ATL should have just reported on the matter and left it alone, but went the muck raking route.
agree with 182.
She gets away with all her views in Singapore because the Dean of NUS works for Lippo Group, headed by her father!
And what a family, her mom just actively staged a coup to takeover a feminist group to silent their liberal voices about abortion, gay rights, sex education programs. Makes it all ironical when she is playing the victim now. NYU is no NUS!
Again, I must respond to some silly comments on this website, though the holder are entitled to their opinion, they are quite backwards.
THIS IS A TERRIBLE AFFRONT TO FREE SPEECH, NOT A VICTORY BY ANY SENSE OF THE WORD. it is an injustice to see anyone silenced, no matter how you disagree with their views. but that doesnt mean you have to affirmatively provide someone you dont like with a forum to speak either. but since NYU did, I was sad to see a backlash of persons hating that decision. the school tries to provide both views, and it seems people wanted to hear both. just because not a ton of people signed up for Prof. Thio's class does not mean the anti-Thio's 'won.' there's never any winning and losing with ideas. they come and go, become popular and less so over time, then regain popularity again. theres no end to the game, so there cannot be a 'winner' and 'loser', as the marketplace of ideas continues indefinitely. everything can and should always be debated, unless proof is conclusive, and moral arguments cannot ever be conclusively proved either way so have been and will be debated for all time, as they should be. the comments addressing one idea 'won' and one 'lost' are thus pretty silly, and suffer from the bias of thinking we are somehow more enlightening in this day and age then any other so what is more popular now is a winner and what is less popular now is a loser. nothing could be farther from the truth.
finally, I want to dispell posts, and luckily there were not too many of these, comparing homosexuality to race, as not many people hold that view at least is some comfort. those with that view can of course continue to argue it freely, but their analogy is poor since race is obviously just reflecting on someone's skin tone or nationality or looks. homosexuality is someone's sexual preference and has little if anything to do with outward appearance, making them dissimilar. a counterargument might be that both are 'genetic' (though proof of that is up in the air) or that we are 'born with both' (again, inconclusive) but those arguments suffer from the obvious fallacy that just because something is genetic or beyong our control that those things are similar or even morally acceptable. child molesters have extremely high rates of recidivism, and are probably 'born with' the urge to do so, and are basically incurable. but this their behavior acceptable? obviously not. so these too are poor arguments to compare race/nationality/ethnicity to homosexuality, and different arguments will need to be presented and to why they are both deserving of civil rights but the too can only be loosely compared at best.
191: You have to be kidding. As Brian Leiter noted in his initial post on the Thio story (and as anyone who has read any Dworkin would quickly realize), Thio just regurgitated the same arguments Lord Devlin made in his debate with H.L.A. Hart over the Wolfendon Report (1957 U.K. government report advocating for the legalization of private sexual conduct between consenting adults). As Leiter notes, Devlin lost the debate as both an intellectual matter and as a matter of English law (just as Scalia lost the debate as a matter of American law in Lawrence).
As another commenter has noted, Devlin and Thio's line of reasoning runs as follows:
1) ‘Homosexual sodomy is wrong’
2) ‘Homosexual sodomy is wrong in the functional sense, i.e. for the persistence of that society’
3) Therefore ‘Society X has the right to do what is necessary to preserve its own existence; it may do what is necessary to suppress homosexual sodomy.’
Of course, the conclusion does not follow. Devlin and Thio misidentify what a moral argument is. They unacceptably imply that a corrupt and immoral society (e.g., South Africa in the era of apartheid, or miscegenation laws in the U.S. pre-Loving) has as much right to perpetuate itself as a decent society, provided it is able to integrate the society and provided that a majority of its people view some particular activity (whether interracial marriage or homosexual sodomy) as "immoral." Anyway, this analysis of Thio's substance could go on and on, but just take it from me: much smarter people than you and Thio have utterly destroyed her (read: Devlin's) argument. In fact, such destruction occurred (and you can read about it!) over fifty years ago in the U.K. Please educate yourself. Thanks.
this would be a triumph of free speech if all that happened was students enrolling or not enrolling in Prof. Thio's classes. but the posts arguing that are missing the main issue-that a petition to silence this individual was widely disseminated and her views were mocked openly in a hurtful way. she should not have complained about being attacked, but that is a different issue. free speech would have won if all that happened was course enrollment, but a backlash against her causing Prof. Thio not to come to NYU was what occurred. i dont see how this can be a victory for free speech when someone with unpopular views was afforded a chance to speak and then beaten down. I was not a fan of Columbia allowing Pres Ahmadinejad to speak, but once they did so it would have reflected poorly on a university's quest to provide multiple points of view had they rescinded it, so i was glad when they did not even though ahmadinejad's views are even more unpopular than prof. Thio's. there can be no free speech if the CONTENT of someone's speech is the reason for a reversal in a decision to allow them to speak. yes, it was Prof. Thio's decision, but i cant blame her because of the backlash that should not have. the student body should have thanked the school for giving them access to a less popular view, as that's all academia is all about. debate. forming opinions, and knowing the arguments for both sides. it's fine if Prof. Thio wasnt very popular and her course enrollments small, but not fine if angry backlash causes her to feel unwelcome because of the content of her message.
Those man hands can't hurt you any more, Jimmy.
"Well, looks like you've succeeded. We're not going to have an open debate on homosexuality. What's next? Affirmative action? Abortion? Kiss all this shit goodbye."
-
This is NYU we're talking about. Open intellectual debate about affirmative action and abortion has a snowball's chance in a blast furnace.
When I was there, in the early 2000s, the Federalist Society invited Richard Epstein to debate someone about affirmative action at the school.
When it came to that subject, you know how many of the professors were willing to stand up for what they believe in, have it challenged, and engage in the academic rigor of intellectual debate?
None.
Take a look at the faculty roster. Look over all the people who will spend years supporting that program, advocating that in their writings, firmly asserting it is the clear, obvious, good, and correct position, and then keep in mind not a single damn one of them were willing to put there position up to an intellectual tête-à-tête.
Fed Soc wound up having to get the one other guy on the faculty who also opposed affirmative action (I may exaggerate by saying that, but not by much) to play devil's advocate, something he openly declared he was doing, for the debate. The right wound up being willing to defend the liberals' own positions better than they were.
I actually am willing to go for the idea that some views, like Thio's, are beyond the pale.
These same professors, though, will wax eloquently about the intellectual rigor of academia, the freedom of thought, the engaging atmosphere of the university, and at least in instances like that (and I'm not even referencing Thio here) they're so completely full of shit.
196, that was the whole point to my post. arguments are never 'utterly destroyed' as you put it. they can be somewhat refuted, more or less popular, rise or fall in the numbers who believe in them over time, but like matter they are destroyed, they merely change form. some people may feel that Devlin's argument was refuted 50 years ago in the UK, others may think thats silly since arguments never die and would draw distinctions that the refutation wasn't quite up to snuff. that's the whole point-no idea ever wins or loses, and constantly new arguments and posed, refined, then reposed and refined again ad infinitum.
to play devil's advocate to put some substance in my previous paragrah, i think i can argue against your counterargument to thio/devlin's line of reasoning. and who's to say you or me ever really win? no one, because there is no end of the game. what if i think all societies have a right to self-perpetuation, no matter how objectively corrupt and immoral they are. whos to say that view is wrong? no one, it will simply be argumed both for and against forever, and though the more popular argument will probably be that a corrupt/immoral society should not be allowed to perpetuate at any cost, that does not mean the other side is ever 'wrong' or 'loses' since theres no end. to draw even a better argument against your refutation, i would submit what does 'corrupt and immoral' mean? what does decent mean? these are all in the eye of the beholder. however, even stronger is the distinction one can make between your e.g. examples of apartheid and US miscegenation being similar to homosexuality. even if you are not comparing the two, we must see the distinction in that a society can still preserve and perpetuate itself and allow apartheid (though i would find it abhorrent, but the society was able to exist, and who are we to say what is legitimate or illegitimate goals of a society?). or miscegenation, (again, i find it abhorrent, but who are we to be so prideful that our current thinking in the modern age makes this so obviously wrong of an idea that 2 persons of different races cannot marry). society got along ok with miscegenation though i think it was unfair to persons to marry someone they chose for procreation. but at the very least, homosexuality is different since the society would not perpetuate, as in, breeding would cease to take place. so even if one thinks denying blacks and whites from being together, black and whites from marrying each other, and gays from marrying each other are the same morally, they cannot be the same physically, as in the first 2 scenarios society could perpetuate itself, and in the third it could not. physically, these are dissimilar.
again the point is, that even if 'much smarter people' have debated it, which no doubt they have, even if they have reached a unanious consensus, who is to say they are right? who is to say that is the be all end all of the argument? no one, never, because the debate is never closed.
Why are "liberals" so afraid of unsanctioned ideas? Why are they so afraid to debate? Why do they always seek to silence their critics rather than refute their claims?
You know why. So-called "liberals" are in fact simply reactionaries. Modern progressive politics is just Mussolini-style fascist syndicalism with a pink bow and a happy face lapel pin.
She chose for herself not to come to NYU because she couldn't take the heat. She COULD still have come because no chance NYU would have rescinded the invitation. They'd have looked like they were censoring her. NYU would have PAID her to come over, and she would have been INVITED to speak at whatever stuff would have been organized to discuss LGBT issues. There would have been heat. She would have been outnumbered (provided Focus O Family don't truck in some supporters), but she COULD have come and spoken.
She chickened out.
"She COULD still have come because no chance NYU would have rescinded the invitation."
Maybe Thio could have still come, but I get the feeling this is the academic equivalent of a Presidential appointee quitting to "spend more time with the family."
After to the full bore effort to pressure NYU into rescinding her offer, it's a little late to yell "but there's no way they could have! They'd have looked like they're censoring her!"
The libs are choosing the wrong issues to hop on as usual. This crap and Gatesgate only serve to inflame everyone else in the world including the moderates in their own camp. Obama's "acted stupidly" comment in regards to the police action against Gates as well as events like this are going to be all over the media - the tipping point is probably already been reached. This will only draw away support for things that are actually important in their agenda (e.g. healthcare refrom). My $.02
If you check the videos of her giving HER SPEECH. she IS capable of speaking when conditions are more favorable towards her.
203: Indeed, this was the law firm equivalent of a cold offer. Yes, NYU never officially rescinded her offer to teach there. However, the NYU liberal community made it abundantly clear that they were going to give her absolute hell for as long as she was affiliated with the school (and probably longer now that the situation dragged out for as long as it did). Nasty e-mails about her, nasty e-mails to her, threatened boycotts, threatened withholding of donations, petitions condemning her -- it was made very clear to Thio that despite her official invitation from NYU, she was not welcome in the NYU community to do any sort of speaking / teaching whatsoever.
And, it worked, much like most cold offers do. As much as many liberals make it sound like it was Thio's call to quit, and that they wouldn't have wanted anything of the sort because they respect free speech, they're full of shit. This was deliberate and calculated -- make Thio feel as uncomfortable and unwelcome as possible so that she'll leave and we can prove to those homophobic, bigoted, etc. conservatives how wrong they are! This type of thing does nothing to foster legitimate intellectual discussion or debate. Instead, it seems like NYU would rather have a campus of like-minded "thinkers" ("believers" is a more appropriate word since there's not really much thinking or examining taking place) -- where you must believe in the liberal ideology, or you're hostilely shunned and protested against until you "voluntarily" leave.
Plz- stick a fork in this. The US commits heinous violations against human rights in China and other parts of Asia every day, and everyone's so concerned that she thinks anal is disgusting.
CURIOUS LIBERAL: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU CONSERVATIVES TALKING ABOUT?
While I generally subscribe to the theory that liberals like free speech, I do not feel that we like it anymore than conservatives. Sure, the ACLU, which is patently liberal, loves free speech, but I besides that organization I see no further support.
I think conservatives like free speech too. To not like freedom of speech is antithetical to a liberal democracy.
However, I have never heard any liberal (aside from the ACLU) stating that ALL speech is constitutionally protected. In fact, it is liberals who want to BAN HATE SPEECH more often than conservatives.
All this comes down to this: Why are conservatives trying to bang us over the head with the "you liberals only like freedom of speech when the speaker is on your side thing." Us liberals NEVER claimed to like all speech. I've NEVER been to a free speech rally. However, I have been to pro-choice rallies, LGBT rallies/parades, and liberal organization benefits (HRC galas, NAACP meetings, etc). So why are we being called hypocrites when we never espoused the belief that hate speech is constitutionally protected. Freedom of speech is not a license to oppress or spew hate.
If anything it seems that libertarians would support the absolute freedom of speech position. Thoughts?
-Liberal who (strongly) values freedom of speech, but thinks that HATE speech deserves ZERO constitutional protection
p.s., let us not forget that this position is not wholly unreasonable. It is the current position of the Supreme Court (fighting words and obscenity are not protected) and the position of most Western democracies (they even take it a step further by OUTLAWING the Holocaust denial and Nazi propaganda). Perspective people, perspective.
Gays only like Asians if they're boys & under 16
so now she's some sort of misrepresented martyr?
was really looking forward to her re-education at nyu. now we'll never see how that would've turned out.
This is addressed to gay Singaporeans. I don’t see why the Jim McCurley Challenge -- which is a great idea -- can’t still go ahead. If a gay law student at NUS would offer to be Prof Thio's “supportive gay friend”, our society might just make progress in building bridges yet! Think about it! :)
Gweek
Academic freedom shouldn't be a license for hatred.
Go teach "human rights" in Chinaa, bitch.
This is ridiculous. What is free speech worth if it only belongs to those that follow the mainstream view? I'm not saying I agree with what the professor has to say, but I do believe in the U.S. Constitution and her right to say it. It's time that free speech belong to people on both sides of the political spectrum. Hypocrisy is a true character trait of those who love to claim a right for themselves and deny it to anyone and everyone who disagrees with the mainstream.
Academic freedoom is a farce. Professors get to express the mainstream view or they are shown the door. Now that is what is truly sad.
We live in a society where people profoundly disagree about the morality of homosexuality. Destroying someone's career because she disagrees with the predominant view of people in her profession won't change that.
What this website has done contributes to the ghettoization of our country: there are certain places where it's not 'safe' to take the minority view on this topic. The gay rights movement can't hope to persuade people who it exiles to the parts of society it can't reach.
Congratulations NYU students, your bigotry won out. This is the tolerance that the gay community preaches of - be tolerant of homosexuals, but god forbid, someone hold contrarian views. The absolute height of hypocrisy.
No wonder NYLS is so TTT. Can you really teach law if you are going to stifle discussion? All law school is is debating what the law should strive to be.
Today is a sad day for legal academia.
People also used to profoundly disagree on whether women could vote or work, or whether African Americans could marry or even have relations with caucasians. Those views were bigoted and wrong. Homophobia and Dr. Thio's beliefs are hate speech, regardless of the fact that a substantial number of people in America and the world treat homosexuals as second class citizens. Millions of people in the world also believe in female genital mutilation, indentured slavery, and forced polygamy. That does not make their views right or valuable. The world and the human race should (and in some places is) progressing past the point where these illogical and vicious value systems, predicated on archaic religious and philosophical scrbblings, are embraced.
TTThio, if you want to have heinous viewpoints including attacking people's intimate behavior as perverse on the floor of Parliament, don't balk at any criticism of you or your disgusting views.
As far as I'm concerned, I think the NYU LGBT community played this BEAUTIFULLY.
Personally I was calling for her head on a plate. Would NYU have invited a scholar who advocates slavery and/or sending African Americans back to Africa as a scholar to teach a class on "Race and the Law in Asia"? No, of course not.
Would NYU have invited an African scholar who advocates deporting all white Zimbabweans to teach a class on "Land Reform in Africa"? No, I suspect not.
This is no different.
It's kind of hilarious that you can make a political career out of saying inappropriate and offensive remarks and then claim offense when people take you task about it.
I hope TTThio uses this ugly episode to reflect on her own ugliness and realize that outside of some rarefied PAP Singaporean bubble where the "Elite diktat" of the one (ruling) party muzzles dissent and the dishrag Straits Times serves up propaganda in praise of her... the real world, TTThio, is a place where your ideas are repugnant and you are not welcome.
This made my day!
203, 206:
I still don't see that she's been denied the opportunity to speak on whatever in NYU. It may not have been pleasant for her to do so, but she could have. South Africa didn't make it pleasant for Mandela. Nor did she make it pleasant for Gays in Singapore. If those are her convictions, then does she only want to preach to the friendly parliamentarians in singapore and maybe the retards in Liberty U?
Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio and Gates and Thio
FIRST!!!
Lat,
The Mayor of Hoboken, NJ was just arrested in a Federal Corruption probe. He's a recent Seton Hall Law alum as is his wife.
Freedom of speech is a two-way street, and speech not riot was used here not only to express opposition to her opinion (and legislative actions), but also to express client-consumer preferences. Congratulations! this is the way things should work in a democratic market economy. She cannot be defended by turning to arguments of bias due to race and gender. Her views treat a group of human beings as unequal. Her views are and promote bias. Whether your political views are on the left or right, regardless as to what you personally think about homosexuality you should be able to see that.
Glad we live in a fascist society now. Free speech and freedom of beliefs, and now the fine print... only if you believe and talk about what we, the liberal progressives, agree with. Ridiculous.
Bunch of fucking libs....you ruined a good thing.
No one was denying her freedom of speech. She can say what she pleases in the public domain. There are people out there right now saying far worse without consequence and with the Constitution's protected. The issue is whether a private institution, which is clearly not supportive of such bigoted beliefs, should encourage such a visceral homophobe to teach at that institution.
She quit, just like Sarah Palin. What a pussy.
I disagree with both Dr. Thio's positions as outlined in her speeches and recent emails and the movement by NYU students to prevent her from teaching at the law school. I think Thio handled it badly but I think the NYU students overreacted; just because you disagree with a professor doesn't mean that person should be prevented from teaching at your school. I'm one of the most liberal people I know, and some of my best classes ever were taken as an undergrad from a staunchly conservative PoliSci professor; our disagreements made things interesting and fun. So boo to both sides here.
But big props to Dean Revesz for handling the whole situation well. His memo is thorough and explains the situation well. +1 for NYU Law.
How ironic that the "freedom of speech" is its own worst enemy. Sad day, indeed.
209 FTW
I do not know that they students did anything to prevent her from visiting at NYU. Whether the Dean was influenced by the 800 signature petition, I do not know. The school and Dean did not recinde their offer. If the Dean was influenced to withdraw the classes from the roster due to lack of enrollment, that is a normal business function. Universities are corporations and enrollments are currency. Ironically, progressive aims may have been achieved via a very Conservative mechanism-- the market.
Who (the F***) cares?
This is pathetic. If this professor were espousing anti-Israel hatred and was faced with opposition, NYU would certainly ignore the backlash and press forward with its appointment.
173 - "I don't see how the two are similar. A belief in the criminalization of homosexual acts or interracial marriage is repugnant to any modern conception of human rights."
Of course you don't. Because to differentiate the two statements, you have to believe there is a certain class of beliefs (those on human rights - nay - YOURS on human rights) that are indeed factual, and not open to debate. Which, comically, is the logical fallacy being criticized. You use the term "repugnant to any modern conception of human rights," which is just code for "this is right, and you are wrong, so go away." While people may feel better about themselves sipping their lattes confident that their beliefs are not "repugnant" to anything, that's rhetoric talking.
If someone can declare some class of beliefs "off limits" irrespective of whether its provable fact, then you're laying the groundwork for intellectual facism. Why stop at human rights? Why not include constitutional law, or health care? Why can't someone go all Spock on us and say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and repress individuals for the common good. I seem to remember a story about some folks on a life raft in old CrimLaw on that point.
It is, by the way, why Rick Warren can never convince the non-believers and why the non-believers can never convince Rick Warren. The basis by which you're doing it implicitly asserts your side in the debate (that someone else's perspective violates fundamental human rights) as the basis for the clear factual superiority of your side of the debate. It's question begging.
Look, I think Dr. Thio's intellectual position is weak at best, and disingenuous at worst. However, what is legitimate "voting with your feet" at the individual level has the capacity to turn into a total lack of intellectual engagement when it becomes the standard M.O. I just think people have to have a little healthy skepticism about the fact that social theories are just that, and that the concept of "inalienable" and "fundamental" human rights are rhetorical devices predicated on a certain concept of social and individual good, and not on the same level as provable fact.
"As many of you know, Dr. Thio has been heavily criticized by some in the NYU community (and beyond) for the allegedly anti-gay views she professed . . ."
Um, guys, she doesn't have "allegedly" anti-gay views. She has anti-gay views. You don't need to throw that in there to be fair.
This whole academic freedom/free speech tantrum that conservatives are throwing is absurd. This has been said many times: the STATE did NOT silence Thio. Perhaps pressure from a group of individuals prompted her to rethink the time, place, and manner of her speech. This happens ALL THE TIME in society. Indeed, I believe the people in here whining about chilling speech are completely disingenuous and solely interested because they don't much care for gay rights or gay people generally. They seem to believe that all speech is equally good and worthy; this of course is moral relativism -- a position that virtually no one will defend on its own. Not to say that "immoral" people can't speak their mind. Of course they can. But no one else is obligated to listen, agree, or even act politely toward them.
HUZZAH - take that, bigots. Your views are unwelcome and your time is swiftly coming to an end.
158 = EPIC, EPIC FAIL.
158 needs to retake 4th-grade science:
"I think the broader concern is that the consequences associated with holding the minority view have become somewhat extreme. In other words, the logistics of free speech aren't producing the results people expect from them.
No professor of astronomy could get hired espousing the belief that the earth revolves around the sun - it's wrong on that point, and anyone believing it is necessarily wrong on a host of other demonstrable facts. "
We're not in the age of Copernicus and Galileo anymore.
This is not an issue of the merits of gay rights. It's an example of pro-gay rights lobbying efforts. This group, seems to be finely oiling the wheel to promote their cause and gain ground for certain issues about which that community is passionate.
233 has a point though.
233, 239 - please let me know when NYU hires a professor that gives policy speeches about how israelis should be imprisoned for having sex with one another.
Liberal hate and intolerance strikes again! Because all know that the Bill of Rights (nay, the whole Constitution) only applies to liberals, minority groups, and other self-victimized people!
238 - stop repressing our beliefs you intellectual facist
NYU = TTT
Who would want to attend a school where only the politically correct viewpoint on issues is taught? What are you going to learn in a class where you agree with everything a professor has to say? A conflict of ideas leads to truth and learning, not a string of politically correct statements.
Congratulations Elie -- the overwhelmingly-liberal bent that you've given this blog has claimed its first victim. No sensible person argues that if homosexuality were proven to be an immutable characteristic, like race, it would be deserving of the same civil rights treatment. The fact is, this has not been proven, making its treatment a legitimate subject for debate, Of course, liberals want to shut down this debate by cklaiming to be overcome by the vapors when anyone wants to have a discussion, and terming them a bigot. Sadly, this website did that here.
244 - Homosexuality is prevalent throughout the animal kingdom. What more proof do you need? Are you telling me that homosexual lions and birds are a result of nurture? The lion came from broken home and that led him to seek an alternative lifestyle? It is a natural occurrence throughout the animal kingdom and humans are no different. Deal with it.
@51 - your reading comprehension skills suck. If you're a lawyer, I pity your clients. I didn't even say I support Thio (I don't). My point is LGBT activists, regardless of whether the outcome is "right" in this case, are being 100% hypocrits who flipped out because some professor held a private view that they disagreed with. It was all knee-jerk, finger-point, witch-hunt, "she's a closet lesbian." Read Dean Revesz's statement. That was a rational response- yours was yell and whine.
@50 - you assume I'm a moral relativist, then beat down a straw man argument by capitalizing Truth and Right. Newsflash: everyone thinks their right. But, I'm not even taking a position on the issue (moot now anyway). Claiming historical trajectory is not an argument. I happen to support LGBT rights, but I also happen to think you're not winning anyone over by yelling louder than them, and pulling this "you're with us or you're against us" crap. LGBT rights are not a foregone conclusion (see California). Keeping acting hysterically and see how much it helps your cause.
-28
My bad: I'm 45, not 28.
-246
245 -- rape is also prevalent in the animal kingdom, yet we punish it, rather than writing it off as an innate behavior. Your argument makes no sense. Query why scientists have searched for a "gay gene" which has eleuded them thus far, rather than relying on your flimsy "it happens in the animal kingdom" logic.
it seems like everything worked out for the best. thio was outspoken about a sensitive subject, couldn't handle the temperature of the debate at NYU, and chose not to come. no one threatened her or barred her from coming to the law school. she says gays are immoral; others say she is ignorant. it's a lot of words. isn't that what debate is about?
she couldn't take the heat and chose not to enter the kitchen. fine with me - i wouldn't want those hands chopping my vegetables, anyway.
Vic
Tory
248 - For one thing because when a rape occurs there is a crime and a victim. Homosexuality involves neither. It's time for people to deal with that fact.
Where were all these liberals protesting when Ahmadinejad spoke at Columbia? Oh yeah, I forgot, it's ok to hate Jews and the United States -- no problem there.
But wait - aren't Ahmadinejad, and the rest of those ruling a country of 65 million people, much much more hateful toward gays than a lowly professor from Singapore could ever be? In Iran, homosexuality is a CRIME punishable by DEATH-- suspected homosexuals are hanged in the streets. The same in true in most of the Arab world, yet we here nothing from the left on it. I do not recall Dr. Thio calling for all gays to be put to death...
What about the outrage over Obama's friend Rashid Khalidi still teaching at Columbia? Again -- as long as you only hate Jews and the U.S., the liberals will support your "freedom of speech" 110%.
OCEANS RISE
CITIES FALL
BUTT SEX (and NYU's integrity) REMAINS
252 is right on. The hypocrisy is disgusting. A majority of this country's living (and dead) voted for Hussein, who rode a wave of tolerance and progress only to ensure that his supporters destroyed gay rights in California. This country's history teaches that it was okay to discriminate against African-Americans until such time as African-Americans had enough. Now African-Americans (in California, at least) are teaching that it is okay to discriminate against homosexuality because the discrimination is no longer aimed at the African-American community.
Yet, it will always be appropriate and permissible to discriminate against Jews, another group that heavily supported Hussein, who depises both Jews and Israel and would like nothing more than to see Israel wiped off the map. His conduct is reprehensible, as is this notion of selective discrimination. Discrimination of any kind is abhorrent, regardless of the group that is its subject. That includes the Jewish community, which has stood for centuries as an advocate of tolerance and coexistence.
Revesz: "The position taken in [Thio's] speech .... irrelevant .....[but] our evaluation of [her] strength as a scholar might have been usefully informed by an assessment of the analytic cogency and methodological integrity of the arguments and evidence she marshaled for her position."
Nicely done, Revesz.
251--
Your very argument admits that the "animal kingdom" perspective has no logical basis -- your invocation of positive law to condemn an animal behavior is laughable. Perhaps we should comfort the rapist chimps by letting them know that their behavior only violates positive law, not natural. No one is claiming that there is a crime or victim in homosexuality. Simply that behavior which have not scientifically proven to be anything other than chosen should not be the basis for discrete and insular minority status -- which they never have been before under this jurisprudence.
248 if you can't tell the difference between rape and consensual sex, be on the look out for a criminal charge very soon . . . .
"I do believe that tradition and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman." - Barack Obama
Anyone want to make a bet about what percent of those who signed the ridiculous petititon against Dr. Thio voted for Obama?
There's simply no way a majority of this country's dead voted for anyone, you silly hick.
If you oppose someone who believe that sodomy should be illegal, you get to meet with the dean and get him to send out emails.
If you oppose someone who advocates the killing of a viable fetus that feels pain and has experience, you will be shouted down, told that killing viable children is a human and constituional right, that you are a bigot, don't deserve a job, and that the government should take your $ to fund this procedure all over the world.
This seems fair
Has anyone considered the Dean's response?
"The position taken in the speech should have been irrelevant to our evaluation of Professor Thio, although the argumentation supporting the position might properly have played a role in that evaluation."
"At the same time, our evaluation of Professor Thio's strength as a scholar might have been usefully informed by an assessment of the analytic cogency and methodological integrity of the arguments and evidence she marshaled for her position. It would be up to the individual faculty member to determine what, if any, weight to give to the speech to Parliament in judging her as a scholar."
--->>>>> recognition of her piddly, illogical arguments and the shamefully low quality of logic displayed in her speech.
"In the last few weeks, a number of members of our community wrote to Professor Thio to convey their objections to her appointment as a visiting professor. She has indicated that she considers some of these messages to be offensive. In turn, she replied in at least one case in a manner that many members of our community--myself included--consider insulting and hurtful. These exchanges have been posted on various blogs. Members of our community have questioned whether Professor Thio's statements create an unwelcoming atmosphere that would have prevented students in her classes from having an effective educational experience."
--->>>>> recognition that her reaction to criticism was a complete overkill and reflected badly on her professional self.
258 - if you can't differentiate between rooting for gay marriage and advocating the criminalization of male gay sex then you deserve to be put in jail.
258 - if you can't differentiate between rooting for gay marriage and advocating the criminalization of male gay sex then you deserve to be put in jail.
Way to protect the First Amendment NYU
260 and other conservative commenters = have to be joking. The theme has become one of oppression. Instead, like with most conservatives who make terrible arguments and badly distort science, Thio got heavily criticized because smart people do not and cannot take her arguments seriously. The fact that the conclusion in her argument was that gays should be oppressed made it even worse. If you are going to advocate for the subjugation of some class of people, at least do it with logic and analytical rigor
way to suppress free speech and shout down a differing viewpoint NYU people!
265. 260 here
You are an idiot and your post is did not address the point I made. Oh well. That's probably b/c your viewpoint it too enlightened. Why bother responding to someone who simply notes the fact that the school will bend over backwards to accomodate you if you take the PC accepted position. Otherwise, the school could care less about your beliefs or what you find offensive.
256 - Try to pay attention please. I get that we're not going to start locking up animals who commit rape, but that's not because there wasn't an improper act or a victim -- I think we all accept the fact that there are different standards of behavior that apply to humans and animals. That fact exposes the problem with your argument - you simply can't compare the debate about how the existence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom relates to human homnosexuality to an act that is regarded fundamentally differently given the moral code that applies to humans and not to animals.
Perhaps scientists have not relied on comparisons to the animal kingdom because they recognize the sad reality that many people still have not accepted the fact we share ancestors with chimps.
And anyway, when has equal protection ever been about genes. If you don't agree that homosxuality deserves equal protection under the law, do you really believe that being gay is a choice? Do you really believe that there wouldn't be a sizable portion of the gay population that would choose to he heterosexual if they could given the discrimination that they face?
My views are weak and I cant support them because im either (1) too dumb to articulate my thoughts (2) all my believes are by "gut" although I pretend to think through things (3) i have no actual beliefs, but i will cite policies only when they favor me.
please stop challenging them!
Thio is a professor and if she can't take the heat (criticism) for her stand then she shouldn't be taking up the job at NYU in the first place.
"1. She had her opinion. 2. She voiced her opinion. 3. Some people disagreed. 4. Those in disagreement voiced their opinion. 5. She was shamed into stepping down.
This is exactly how free speech is supposed to work."
If she expects to be preaching to a placid and unquestioning audience she should stay in her well in NUS.
266 - It's called argument. It's probably a good idea you learned to do it if you're going to be a lawyer.
Ding dong the witch is dead!
Very sorry that you couldn't join us, Dr. Thio. I would have cheerfully attended your classes.
I believe, if you listen closely, you can hear a collective "Oh Thank God!" from the NYU administration.
260--Read Casey. Viable fetuses can be protected by the state. If you read the stats., only a handful (we're talking in the hundreds) of late term abortions happen each year, the vast majority of which are due to maternal health or severe fetal defects.
When I miscarried at 9 weeks, which is around about the time most women have abortions (give or take three weeks) my embryo was 2.16 cm long. Sure, I am sad it never grew to be a child, but it was not a child.
And the fetal pain stuff is bs too.
You are all repeating yourselves.
And PE is a cock-watcher.
Don't you think she hurt herself more by responding directly (and somewhat incoherently) to peoples objections? If she had said nothing, or simply, "i'm entitled to my opinion." It wouldn't have gone this far. The administration would have vigorously backed her and that would have been it.
259:
You obviously know nothing about the 1960 presidential election. Go read a book.
Let's see:
1. "You cannot make a human wrong a human right."
2. "Diversity is not a license for perversity."
Dear NYU Law Faculty,
In the future, try hiring professors who publish their ideas in the form of articles instead of slam poetry. All the best . . .
"Read Casey. Viable fetuses can be protected by the state. If you read the stats., only a handful (we're talking in the hundreds) of late term abortions happen each year, the vast majority of which are due to maternal health or severe fetal defects."
Are you stupid? I know that. You missed the point entirely. Go back and read my post.
"And the fetal pain stuff is bs too."
This is just wrong. A viable 8 month old fetus can feel pain.
My whole point is that that there are several faculty members at law schools around the country who believe aborting ann 81/2 month fetus that does indeed feel pain should be both legal and funded by everyone. This likely offends several students but if you threw called for the firing of every prof who took this position, the dean would not bother talking to you, much less, sending out emails to the entire school. I'm not saying he should. I actually think he should stay out of it. But the double standard is absurd
278 -- Do you know 1) what majority means and 2) how many people have died since the founding of this country? Do you think John Quincy Adams voted for Kennedy? You might want the book.
--259
Really, 280? Name names. A viable and healthy 8 1/2 month old fetus? You are describing me when I was BORN. Now you're just making shit up.
You are so full of shit. And fetal brains are not fully developed enough to experience pain. This may be true even for a time after birth. They can respond to physical stimuli by moving towards or away from them, but so can plants.
But from an ethical standpoint, I and just about everyone else in this country will give you viability.
BTW, guess how many anti-choice professors I have signed petitions against, even though I am pro-choice. Absolutely zero.
Yes.. this is a complete and utter victory for us...
I am neither gay nor black but very much liberal and I think its good to silence these unnecessary viewpoints.
When a woman compares anal sex to shoving a straw up your nose to drink... she will be silenced...
When a man tells you that hispanics are the reason that california is bankrupt... he will be silenced
When someone does tests comparing IQs of different races and reaches a not very pleasant conclusion... he will be silenced.
Its all about utility.. we don't need these "viewpoints" in society. We will carry this country kicking and screaming to an enlightened age of tolerance...
SILENCE THE BIGOTRY!
282. 280 here again
"There is an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_pain
That's ~6 months. Are you seriously arguing that there aren't tons of faculty out there who believe late term abortions should be legal and funded? Should they be able to have a job? I think so. Should the dean send out several emails to the entire school b/c someone thinks it's immoral and anyone who espouses such beliefs should not be allowed to teach? I don't think so. And he wouldn't. But if you are one of the preferred groups, you get special treatment. As a student at a "top" law school, I can assure this happnes
"When someone does tests comparing IQs of different races and reaches a not very pleasant conclusion... he will be silenced."
You're a fucking idiot. The evidence is overwhelming and clear. There are significant differences in average intelligence across the races. I agree that the left has done a good job silencing it, but that doesn't mean that the views are correct.
284 is a parody. Right? Right???
Critical event d/n = can perceive pain at that point. Because they cannot. There are tons who believe in "late-term" abortions, but almost none who believe in post-viability abortions. And the whole argument is a straw man since there are only hundreds of those procedures a year, and they almost all involve fetuses that are BOTH non-viable and have fatal defects and/or mothers with severe health problems.
Do you know what a late-term abortion is like, physically? Do you know how much more difficult and involved the procedure is post-12 weeks when they have to use dilators? (And that is still early term.) Do you know how much a simple D&C on fucking opiates hurts even to extract a 2.16 cm embryo? That, my friend, is why there are so many early term and so few late term abortions. Women aren't sitting around getting abortions at almost-viability for fun. There are reasons. And guess what, you won, because if the fetus is viable, the state gets to regulate, so you are fighting over nothing because you'd rather believe that women get late-term abortions because we're fucking dumb than because suffering another 2-3 months of pregnancy when you know the fetus that would become your child will never live a pain-free, reasonable life, and you will have to watch it suffer and die or wait for it to die inside you and suffer the medical consequences.
Have you read the accounts of women who have (bravely or accidentally) given birth to a child with a fatal birth defect? Can you imagine the pain of watching your born child scream for months? Maybe, before you go making stupid assumptions about why people choose late term abortions, or what it is like if they choose in those situations to carry to term, you should read what those couples have to say.
If you think people are doing unspeakably evil things for no reason, instead of just assuming that is correct, perhaps you should find out why they say they are doing it. And THEN judge. Usually, people have reasons. And based on my experience of an early term D&C, fucking no one is going to go through the pain of a later term abortion unless they have a damn good reason.
14 - Lat doesn't date fellow Gaysians. He likes the white boys.
Aborigines have the lowest IQ, per Wikipedia; but Wikipedia never saw Baz Luhrmann's Australia.
No ratings on hand size, East Asian or otherwise.
268 --
We base existence of rights on characteristics that are immatable, which is proven by the fact that you are born with them. They are not evidenced by your behavior, since behaviors are chosen. The mere fact that you think that no rational person would choose to be gay does not mean it is not so. And if we confer rights on the basis of homosexual behavior, that choce will have many more benefits attached to it, and will become more popular. I have no problem with this, I only have a problem with conferring rights on the basis of what, thus far, has not been empirically shown to be more than a choice. Your "no person would choose this" argument has no basis in fact, and little basis in logic. Some people choose things for reasons wholly separate from the outward ramifications of the choice -- they do it because they want to. I make no judgment on that, I simply observe that it is so (see, eg, the choice to be a vegan, given that this will in no way affect world food consumption patterns, and amounts only to a personal choice).
268 --
We base existence of rights on characteristics that are immatable, which is proven by the fact that you are born with them. They are not evidenced by your behavior, since behaviors are chosen. The mere fact that you think that no rational person would choose to be gay does not mean it is not so. And if we confer rights on the basis of homosexual behavior, that choce will have many more benefits attached to it, and will become more popular. I have no problem with this, I only have a problem with conferring rights on the basis of what, thus far, has not been empirically shown to be more than a choice. Your "no person would choose this" argument has no basis in fact, and little basis in logic. Some people choose things for reasons wholly separate from the outward ramifications of the choice -- they do it because they want to. I make no judgment on that, I simply observe that it is so (see, eg, the choice to be a vegan, given that this will in no way affect world food consumption patterns, and ammounts only to a personal choice).
To the IQ idiots, there are culturally neutral IQ tests on which people of all races, including people still living subsistence lifestyles without formal schooling, do equally well on.
There are ways to measure reasoning apart from reasoning as taught. Those are the better IQ tests. If you use tests that measure reasoning as taught, which some demonstrably do, you will have differing results based on the type and quality of education that the population is exposed to.
Forget whether sexual orientation is natural or not---sexual contact between consenting adults should not be illegal. It does not harm anyone. But it is treated as a malum in se offense, which is totally screwy.
The type of sex another person has (or doesn't have) with a same or different sex adult partner does not affect me. It is none of my business, legally.
She's a bigot and a coward. She's allowed to hold her position, she's not allowed to have a positions and not have people point out how ill-reasoned it is.
291/292 - The "no person would choose this" argument is based purely on fact and logic. Talk to any gay person who lived a tortured experience during their teenage years because there were friends and family members who would have never accepted the fact that they were gay. Do you really believe that if homosexuality was a choice that a child would choose to live that kind of existence.
Put more simply, do you really, seriously believe that all gay people choose to be gay? Gay people do not represent some miniscule proportion of the population - they represent a sizable, statistically significant proportion of the population. To believe that every single one of those people chooses to be gay defies logic, statistics and something us lawyers often overlook, practicality.
first?
288, It's me again
I never made any assertion about why people make those choices. I have no idea how in the world you continue to miss the point of what I am saying. The point has NOTHING to do with whether post viability abortion should be legal or illegal. READ what I wrote.
293, can I photograph you, or would that swallow your soul?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO10s_HK6d0
298,
You have no point. You're trying to draw an equivalence between people who advocate for abortions at 8 1/2 months, and people who outlaw gay sex. I pointed out that the first group does not exist. You then moved it to people who advocate for abortions post-viability. I explained why your characterization was incorrect there as well. I also pointed out that I don't "agitate" against anti-choice professors.
You claim to have pointed out some kind of hypocrisy with regards to how people with "liberal" viewpoints that are offensive to others are treated. I pointed out that you are telling lies about the "liberal" position. I pointed out that even those who hold the deeply conservative position on abortion are not protested and their jobs are not lost.
So, basically, you are lying about other people's political views, and then whining about how (hypothetically) no one would listen to your lies if you tried to voice them.
If you have another point, please make it. Because as of right now, you are simply full of shit.
I notice that many comments here reject outright the notion that private citizens 'silencing' other citizens through verbal abuse can ever amount to an abridgement of the latter's First Amendment rights. (Both older and younger Thios have argued 'homosexualism activists', through their forceful and abusive words, 'chill' their opponents' rights to freedom of speech and conscience.)
Yet, many of the same commentators would presumably support at least some state restrictions on hurtful invective directed at a person's sexual orientation. Wouldn't such legislation, however, be based on the assumption that certain forms of speech (not amounting to 'fighting words') can in fact directly or indirectly 'silence' their targets, by preventing them from participating as equals within public discourse?
Speaking as a Singaporean, I must say that Thio's views are inflected with U.S.-style Christian fundamentalism, as well as the Thomistic school of natural law theory (associated in recent times with such anti-gay Catholic legal philosophers as John Finnis, Germain Grisez and Robert George). See, for instance, the use of such choice terms in her 2007 speech as 'moral ecology' and 'public sexual morality', which spring from this school of thought. Her views are thus shared neither by the Singapore government (which believes in a 'pragmatic' approach towards homosexuals) nor by most ordinary citizens.
So for those who think that Thio's views are the product of some 'Oriental' or 'Third World' backwater state -- think again. Her opinions merely echo those still being bandied about in Middle America. That's the most ridiculous aspect of the anti-gay crusade in Singapore. Even as its proponents decry the "libertine values" of the "wild wild West", they appeal to arguments and values peculiar to Western philosophy ('communitarianism', 'legal moralism', etc.). I'm sure it'd have been quite a sight to have an Asian woman (really a WASP at heart) going to America to, in effect, re-import various American cultural, intellectual and religious exports. I doubt you'd find her views as alien as you might expect (chickens coming home to roost, perhaps?).
A pity that we'll now never know.
293, post some proof or shut up.
I understand her decison, but I'm disappointed she didn't stay. I mean, that's what being a conservative in a law school is all about: toughing it out, making sure your view is heard, and carrying it off with greater dignity than the protesting mobs who try to bring you down. Oh, well. I'm sure there will be others.
Who cares?
301
Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion
Looks like the group does in fact exist, idiot. Looks like you are wrong again.
Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]
71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other
Obviously, you are full of crap w/r/t why people get late term abortions.
And many states allow you to get a post-viability abortion for "mental health" reasons. And we all know exactly what this means. Your feeling will be hurt if you have a child. All of this funded with tax dollars if some have their way. There is absolutely a double standard. You are simply too small minded to see it.
303,
Interesting that I have to post proof, while others on this board are permitted to make racist statements about IQ tests without posting proof. Normally, I don't respond to such rude requests, but based on the assumption that there are others who are not commenting that are interested in the subject, here goes. (Again. Why does this same thing always hapeen on ATL?)
The best piece explaining the differences and their origins in environment, not "white genes": http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/opinion/09nisbett.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
Here's something on bias http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ239608&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ239608
New data is suggesting that the Cattell test is more fair than the Stanford-Binet or WISC:
http://apm.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/355
And here is a discussion of fairness and IQ tests with a focus on Cattell, which is not perfect, but a great deal better: http://books.google.com/books?id=flX770mG2HcC&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=cattell+iq+test+fairness&source=bl&ots=8Td_nBVDrF&sig=9TJD3BthvDylIVo1RioKUrzX280&hl=en&ei=ZrtoSo2lKI2wsgOCtLGWBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
Ironically, Cattell was himself a racist.
16 week abortions are not late term. That is early second trimester. Considering the fact that the first 2-3 weeks are pre-implantation, it isn't as old as you think it is. And the numbers you cite reinforce what I said, which is that no woman is going to choose even an early-second trimester abortion over a first-trimester abortion for funsies. Not everyone is aware of pregnancy as early as everyone else.
And 1000 post-26 weeks is "hundreds." Sorry it was almost 1100 as opposed to ~ 900, which was the number I saw last time I looked it up, years ago. The Guttmacher institute's number is only an estimate, so I am not necessarily wrong.
There is a big damn difference between 16 and 26 weeks. If you don't believe me, go to one of those happy pregnancy website, look at the photos, consider the size and read about the physical development (neurological and otherwise.)
Also, wrt to the women at a clinic who answered the question--it is almost certain that none of them were there for truly late-term abortions, because those are not offered at the same clinics that perform earlier abortions. So the number of women who answered that question who were having an abortion anywhere near viability was probably 0.
But I'm still waiting to hear what your logical argument is re: liberal hypocrisy, because that is what all your ill-informed abortion bomb-throwing was supposed to be about.
I love 291/292's statement that "[w]e base existence of rights on characteristics that are immatable [sic]." Um, how about religion? Is government allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion or religious practice? Is religion an "immatable" [sic] characteristic?
306 -- You can't count the number of weeks in a month. And, for the record, I want to slap that goddamn sign out of your hands when I go to Planned Parenthood to get rubbers. Do I have to wear a shirt that says "Just Getting Rubbers, So Leave Me Alone You Simple Theist Pricks"? If you're made in your god's image, then god is a babbling jackass with an unintelligible sign in his hand. Congrats on everything.
307 -- What's wrong with being racy?
BTW, abortions are not funded with federal tax dollars. Read the Hyde amendment. States can choose to fund them, but they are not federally funded. And yeah, it burns me that even "medically necessary" abortions are not covered by medicare despite the fact that every other medically necessary procedure is covered. Delivering will kill you? The government will pay. But if carrying to term will only maim you (i.e., subject you to pre-eclampsia or kidney failure) sorry, it is on your own dime. That is such bullshit.
And if you're going to claim they actually happen for "mental health" reasons, and that those reasons are bogus, let's see some proof. Operation rescue doesn't count.
309
The point about hypocrisy is that calling for the firing of a professor who believes post viability abortion should be government funded would not get you meeting/emails from the dean. And I don't think it should
Calling for the firing of someone how belives that sodomy should be illegal=multiple emails etc.
The fact is that NYU, as well as many other schools, cater to liberal interests. The school should not be out protecting their cry baby students from having their feelings hurt and they certainly shouldn't do it selectively.
311
I have not and would never protest abortion. I don't care that much
312
I know they are not funded by tax dollars, but there are many who advocate for it.
And what do you think qualifies as "mental health?" And why should you be able to inflict pain and end the life of a baby because you suffer mental health problems as a result of your own actions?
I love that the anti-choice religious wackos have sprung to life and for no apparent reason. I actually laugh every time an abortion occurs. I don't think the procedure is comical; I just find the religious nutcase fervor it engenders on the anti-choice side to be hilarious.
OMG I'M SO CONTROVERSIAL ON THE WEB!! OMG OMG!! SO FUNNY!!
Just saw the news. I'm beginning to think God might exist after all.
313,
I am asking you for proof. Where are these mythical professor beasts? Why is late-term abortion such a bad thing when there are only an estimated thousand and if you actually TALK TO THE FAMILIES WHO HAVE THE PROCEDURE, they have good reasons.
Regarding mental health, did you know that lots of psychoactive drugs are teratogens? So here's a concept for you--you have severe mental health issues, you remain on teratogens because you don't want to have a psychotic break with reality, then you discover you're pregnant (perhaps it takes a while to figure out because you're mentally ill and have a tenuous grasp on reality), and will continue harming the fetus if you continue taking the drugs, but really can't go off of them either.
Birth control fails. There are no perfect users. People with severe mental health issues are less likely to be perfect users, depending upon the mental health issue.
Again with the pain. Fetal pain doesn't exist. Mental health problems do not come about "because of your own actions." You're an idiot, or have no grasp of psychiatry if you think people choose to be manic depressive or schizophrenic. States can regulate abortions post-viability, if you don't think there should be a mental health exception, perhaps you should research why there is one, why and to what extent it is used, and if you still think it is bogus, use your FREE SPEECH to advocate for its repeal.
Or you could just lie about abortion, and lie about how a hypothetical evil professor who wanted to government to pay for 8 1/2 month "abortions" and how if you tried to get him/her fired no one would listen to you.
Do you realize how making shit up and being uninformed about the subject means you really suck?
Have you ever known someone who had a late term miscarriage, or a stillbirth, or who chose a late term abortion to avoid one of the former two or to avoid giving birth to a child who would have no meaningful life? Have you watched an infant die before? Even if it cannot feel pain, the couple that told me about seeing their child scream for two months certainly suffered. And yet you feel free to judge them and the people who argue in favor of their rights, and tell lies about the procedures, and the reasons for it, and its supporters, instead of thinking, gee, maybe this is a tough decision. Maybe people agonize over it. Maybe they suffer greatly whether they have an abortion or give birth to a non-viable child. Maybe it should be for the couple to decide how they address the tragedy.
I know it would cause my husband excruciating pain to watch a child of ours suffer and die. That is something I would take into account if the next time I get pregnant, the embryo has a fatal defect AGAIN, like it did last time, but it doesn't die before the defect is discovered.
ROFL at 308. Every test of "g" IQ has shown that blacks average 85, compared to 100 for whites and 103-105 for East Asians. The military study quoted in the times is ridiculous as the military used IQ tests to screen lower IQ people out, so that those that remained were more similar. Cultural IQ? Give me a fucking break.
Re: Gay Gene Argument
Please be aware that very rarely does ONE SINGLE gene control anything, especially a behavioral phenotype as complex as reproduction. There are likely many different genes acting in concert to determine sexual orientation.
For anyone who is truly interested in scientific research on the subject, just go to pubmed.com and search for genetic studies in drosophila and anatomical studies of the brains of homosexual compared to heterosexuals. I would say the scientific evidence thus far strongly favors the "inherent trait" hypothesis of the origin of homosexuality.
-- Straight M.D., J.D.
317
I'm sick of debating this, but as for making things up, you are totally full of crap. And btw, I disproved you assertioant that "Fetal pain doesn't exist" earlier and provided a link. This is well accepted by scientist. I'm sure that's just a male-hetero-patriarchal-euro centric construct. You are an idiot. I'm done with this. It's been fun!
320, your arbitrary use of the hyphen belies your argument that anyone else is the idiot.
And to which scientist do you refer when you use the phrase: "well accepted by scientist"?
No, you didn't prove that fetal pain exists. What you quoted said that something was "developmentally critical" to the development of the ability to feel pain.
Not the same at all. Certain things happen with an embryo's liver around 9 weeks, that are developmentally critical, but that doesn't mean the liver is fully formed--if it were, fetal alcohol syndrome wouldn't be such a big deal.
If you want to know about the scientific allegations re: fetal pain, read what is known about development of the cortex and the deposition of myelin on nerves. What the best researchers will say now is that while very early embryos and fetuses react to stiumuli, they do not have sufficient cortical development to feel pain.
Abortion people stop hijacking this thread!
Thread's dead, baby, thread's dead.
Thio is so typical Singaporean, always whining and complaining, then just throw a fit when they do not get their ways!!
If a restaurant owner hires a chef who publicly announces that she is disgusted by vegetarians and therefore intends to spit in any vegetarian meal she prepares, would you not then expect the restaurant owner to reconsider his choice? ... I guessed so.
What if the chef was gay? Then the gays would be up the restaurant's ass, flexing their agenda.
Do you think Thio would've given the gays lower grades?
Dr. Thio's basic problem is that she allows her religious views of "morality" to affect her legal analysis. This brings into question her suitability for teaching in any field of law, particularly in a society that does not universally buy in to her religious position.
Her latest book is quoted by the publisher as saying lawlessness is caused by the antichrist. Good job she's not teaching criminology.