"whether or not the woman acted appropriately in sicking the Cambridge police on Professor Gates while he was attempting to enter his house"

If you see someone that you do not recognize trying to jimmy open a door to the house of a neighbor you should call the police. Period.

Elie is a turd.

I'm about to get Lathamed by the New York bar. Fuck.

Elie FTW!!!

Actually, the police didn't mention anything about race in the 911 call. It was the media.

Looks like the Cambridge Police are getting Lathamed by Elie.

Just shut up Elie. Constantly calling random people racists is in itself racist. And it is a far more damaging type of racism than cops attempting to talk to Gates before receiving elegant and classy "yo mama" jokes you would expect from a cultured intellectual. Your big fatass mouth does not illuminate problems in race relations, it contributes to them. Get another reason for your life's failures. It isnt always whitey or the system. Shut up and do some real reporting.

Why is everyone trying to make this about race?

listen to the call. The 911 operator appears to speculate that one of the men may have been hispanic, but I never heard either the caller or the police identify anyone's race.

Fuck you, Mystal. This guy would be nothing if it wasn't for the color of his skin. Who the hell cares?
I hope you are wandering around Cambridge late at night sometime and get gang banged by a super violent group of lesbians and the police just ignore you and go on their merry way.

Elie, I give you credit for apologizing -- simply put, the facts didn't end up the way you thought they were given the police report, and owning up to being mistaken here is good.

However, even if the facts were as you thought they were (the woman reported the race of the two men), I still don't think the woman would have been out of line. As previous posters have said, race is a pretty basic characteristic of a potential suspect to provide. If the police need to identify someone quickly, they're going to ask for: sex, race, height, hair color, build.

I can imagine a situation where the two men breaking in weren't Gates and driver, but two guys trying to commit a burglary or robbery at the house. Suppose Gates comes later with driver and gets ambushed by the two guys, because witnesses didn't want to call the police (fearing they'd be accused of racial bias)? Simply put, when you see something suspicious, it's always a good idea to call the cops, and when doing so, to provide an accurate description of the potential suspects -- and that includes race.

So cops shouldn't be allowed to put down race as a description of a person involved in a police call? Jesus, Elie, what would you have them do? Stop crying wolf. Overreacting to every incident like this means next time there's a real race issue, people will be less inclined to take it seriously. Must everything become about race? Time to move on.

Elie, you dare call in to question the ability of the police to act with competence after publishing your first-level, reactionary (and racist) "thoughts" to a blog?
What the fuck dude? Where's YOUR sense of shame?

12 - They can put down race IF A CALLER MENTIONS IT.

Here the 9-1-1 caller didn't say a thing about race, and yet the police dropped it into the report.

Even if not racist, that is sloppy police work.

I never thought I'd see this day, but Elie has been vindicated. HAHAHA.

Elie, you're a fat shit. "Assuming she is telling the truth..." Even if she wasn't, and she could see the men were black, you STILL couldn't rationally blame her for calling the police. Fact.

Elie, you're a fat shit. "Assuming she is telling the truth..." Even if she wasn't, and she could see the men were black, you STILL couldn't rationally blame her for calling the police. Fact.

15: Do you know WTF vindicated means?

14: Police mentioned it in their report because they are required to.

5 years ago an intruder broke into my house and it was so dark all I could see was his silhouette and I couldn't tell what race he was. The cops were very frustrated because it's much easier to know what race of suspect you're looking for. Cops as a rule put this stuff in their reports.

Gates and the media are the ones making this into a race thing.

-12

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/index.html

I think a public apology is in order. The blogger of this website (ATL) even went so far as to suggest that the caller could be held liable for some sort of lawsuit. If that's the case, either (a) abovethelaw.com is much better about blogging the law than knowing it, or (b) there are too many trigger-happy lawyers running around these days.

too bad there's no equivalent to the Bar exam for filtering out muckraking journalists. ATL should be ashamed. I think I'll remove ATL from my list of frequented websites. adios!

I feel like this post is meant as an apology or a correction, but it's really a self-serving defense of your unacceptable, baseless accusations and playing of the race card in earlier posts. It's really the most pathetic excuse of an "update" ever.

It's particularly telling that you start out by saying the caller "contends" she didn't act based on race and only behind the jump do you obliquely refer to the indisputable, documentary evidence that establishes she did not act based on your race and your allegations were unfounded.

It's also ridiculous that you claim to have relied on or trusted the police report. Every post you've made, every comment you uttered has been premised upon the police report being an inaccurate distortion of the events that transpired that day. From the beginning, you suggested it was full of lies. Obviously, you chose to pick out and believe those facts that comported to your biased, anti-police, racist world view and discredit those facts that might suggest the police, the caller, or any non-black person acted as a reasonable person would.

This is just getting ridiculous. I'm so upset with this blog I can't even articulate my anger.

This information makes it clear that this is not news. Shame on the police for marking the race of the suspect? That's not injecting race, its reporting the situation with detail. Mystal, I have never before participated in bashing you, but this particular vendetta you are on is just pitiful. Your articles have been uninformed, ill-timed, and consistently one-sided. This type of journalism is Fox-news-esque at best.

Mystal,

What is it exactly that you learned in your first year of law school. The last sentence of your post is not very clear.

9 - the 911 operator did not try to get the caller to say hispanic, he asked if the people were white, hispanic or black, & the caller said she thinks one may have looked hispanic.

To 14--how is it "sloppy" police work to get a thorough description of the people involved?

Why are liberals so upset when police mention race in reports and get equally upset when employers fail to hire employees purely based on their skin color?

Am I the only one who thinks the 9-1-1 operator here is an asshole?

That guy's face makes me want to kick puppies and smack small children.

Whenever I call the police on gangbangers in my half white, half black neighborhood, the dispatcher asks me the race of the gangbangers.

I thought the dispatcher was trying to assist the responding officers in identifying the individuals to which I am referring.

Now I know that the dispatcher is racist, and so am I.

Thanks, loser.

Fire Elie.

Neighbor and officer vindicated. Gates, Obama and Mystal acted “stupidly”.

FACT: This guy held a FUND RAISER for Obama.

FACT: This guy works daily to immortalize a Communist.

And the media isn't hiding this or anything........

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=105028

When I was 14 I was babysitting for my two baby nieces. It was 1:00 a.m. in the morning and my brother was left downtown without a ride home. He came to my sister's house where I was babysitting and rang the doorbell. He woke me up but kept changing doors so I laid back down. He broke a small window in the door to come in. Two minutes later the doorbell rang. It was a cop and I and my brother had to verify who we were and call my sister and her husband to verify as well. I am white, my brother is white, the copy was white, the neighborhood was white. It was 1976.

do you know what this gates guys says? he is a racist...hes the problem not the solution...he is a race baiter and not a scholar...get the facts listen to his race laden lectures...t

"It looks like I am guilty of a version of what I incorrectly accused the lady doing"

Oh Jesus H. Christ, there is no hope for you.

You dragged a woman through the mud for no reason, she's completely vindicated, and you still won't admit you fucked up (and that's not even addressing the idiotic "legal reasonings" in your previous post).

The only person making the whole "cabbed caller" racial was you in the first place.

I haven't read the previous comments, but I hope that this has been mentioned: the woman did not call these officers, and did not speak to them directly when she was on the phone with 911. Why is there any reasonable expectation for the police (who, like a game of "telephone" are being relayed the conversation second, third, or fourth hand) to set out the 911 call verbatim in an AAR that was drafted shortly after the incident ocurred before there was any opportunity, need, desire, or reason to listen in on the 911 call.

You're just grasping at straws here. Give it up.

If you say Mystal out loud 3x while standing in front of a mirror, Elie shows up and pounds you in the ass with a 6ft hoagie.

I think we can all agree that racism exists in this country. I think we can all agree that the police do profile based on race in some instances. I think most of us can agree that profiling is actually quite useful since certain races tend to commit certain types of crimes (i.e. white child molester). What has everyone so pissed off about this is that this is clearly not based on racism and not profiling except for the racist harvard professor. Stop crying WOLF or you'll be ignored when something really does happen.

Relying on your anti white prejudice to formulate "facts" in this story before your actually knew any objective facts is racism. It is really easy to look at the actions of others and scream racism Elie, but perhaps you should become more introspective of your own belief systems.

I sincerely hope that you are able to work through your issues. After all, if your writing ability remains on the level of your reporting, you may not be able to work for a minority much longer. You may actually have to -gasp- interact with white people at your new job.

Yeah, this is so NOT a racist issue - just an asshole citizen vs. asshole cop issue.

I'm still waiting for Elie to clarify his preposterous good Samaritan theory of liability.

32 = racist

HOW MANY MONTHS until Obama resigns. Any bets?

Should I be scared of Black people?

Guy from a Boston suburb

26 - no, the 911 operator was an asshole.

"Taking the police's word about anything the 9-1-1 call wasn't very lawyerly. "

Elie,
Your whole argument wasn't very lawyerly. Just drop it. You look dumber every time you post something about this case.

Elie-- Your posts on this topic are embarassing. Despite the prevelance of racism and the role race has historically played in interactions between law enforcement and African Americans, the caller in this story did exactly what she should have done. As a black man myself, if I see two black men (or men of any race or ethnicity) pushing open my neighbor's door, I'm going to call the cops.

Elie, you couldn't have faulted the do-gooder before - this development makes no difference.

Elie, did they also teach you in your first year of law school about "innocent until proven guilty"? Or did they just tell you to assume that all white people are racist? See also, Duke University--Lacrosse Team.

21 nails it. Nothing left to say, really.

By the way police report != 911 transcript. The police report is what the police claim happened. Their identification of the race of the individuals involved is identifying information (tall heavy female etc.).

Elie is a really bad lawyer.

41 = idiot.

35 is right, Elie's first sentence is even wrong....the police resport didn't mention the substance of the 9-1-1 call, but rather Crowley's conversation with her when he got to the house.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

Glad to see the heroic caller got competent representation.

-Proud NESL alum

"Assuming the woman is telling the truth"? Is this still in doubt given the release of the audio? Is this still open for question, Mystal?

Verified Fact: Mystal never passed the NY bar.

Elie, take whatever dignity you have left and resign from ATL. Do it before you either get fired or (worse) Lat allows you to further damage the blog.

Well it looks like the Camden police have "fudged" (ha get it) the police report to save their own butts! There was no reason to continue to question Gates after he provided ID. In MA it is not illegal to yell at an officer, especially in your own home. That is why the prosecution dropped the case...there was no case. The police acted "stupidly" by arresting someone for something that isn't a crime. Gates should sue for false imprisonment.

54

Verified Fact: Mystal never passed a buffet either

Mystal hates crackers, and not the delicious crunchy kind.

Elie wrote as follows, in TrueSlant:

According to multiple reports, Gates arrived home after a trip to find his front door jammed. With the help of a cab driver (a dark skinned person of unknown ethnicity) the two men attempted to force the door open. Serendipitously, a white lady happened to be driving by in another cab and observed “two black males with backpacks… trying to force entry.” Notwithstanding the fact that this apparent break was happening in broad daylight, the white lady still called the cops.

Anyway, the cops showed up, Gates was annoyed, … Gates got arrested for disorderly conduct, the charges were dropped.

Some people want more facts before they determine whether or not Professor Gates was a victim of racism. We’ve been covering the story on Above the Law, and some of our commenters resist the racist charge. These people want to know precisely what happened inside Gates’s house between the arresting officer and the professor. But this is a prima facie case of racial profiling, regardless of what happened inside Gates’s house. Asking Gates to explain his actions after the point where the police accused him of breaking into his own house without any probable cause misses the point and is borderline offensive.

Elie Mystal owes an apology to the "white lady."

Is it really fair to say the caller did not mention race? Both the 911 operator and the caller mentioned race - it just wasn't the first thing they discussed and it was brought up by the 911 operator...

56 - Simmer down Mr. Gates. You'll get your chance to explain it over a beer at the White House.

Elie, you're apologizing for the wrong reasons. What about the ridiculous conjecture within your last post? Or how about the conclusory arguments you made through completely anti-white racial assumptions? The fact you fail to grasp what is really wrong with your position makes me feel no sympathy for you when the commentors rip you apart. The fact you're apologizing for accepting the cops rendition of the story as completely true, thus justifying your position, (i.e. had the cops not said what they said you never would have placed blame on the lady caller), makes me dislike you even more. The real fault in your argument is the anti-white racist mentality that drove your argument and led to your ridiculous conclusion in the first place. Until you realize that, you will never be vindicated. Lat, please do something about this.

Is it really fair to say the caller did not mention race? Both the 911 operator and the caller mentioned race - it just wasn't the first thing they discussed and it was brought up by the 911 operator...

26-

You are right on the mark here. The 9-1-1 operator was cross-examining the caller and was really kind of rude to her.

"Assuming the woman is telling the truth, then you can't really fault her. You can fault the Cambridge police, for injecting race into a call where race wasn't even mentioned. "

There are so many things wrong with this paragraph. How about the fact that the police did not "inject" anything into "a call," and that it mentioned the race of Gates because Gates himself mentioned race and how he is a "black man in America"?
MysTTTal, resign.

Growing up Black or growing up gay?

Discuss.

i love how this has become a legitimate saga. people who play the race card like this dont care if american children starve or go without vaccines. gates is a self-aggrandizer who is trying to make the history books.

He looks like a trouble-maker

just keep digging.

Nice backpedaling, Elie.

You didn't "question" whether this lady's actions were appropriate. You wrote "The White Lady Was A Raving Idiot."

That looks like a conclusion, not a question, to me.

@66 - That's easy. Gay.

MysTTal's own words:

"Serendipitously, a white lady happened to be driving by in another cab and observed “two black males with backpacks… trying to force entry.” Notwithstanding the fact that this apparent break was happening in broad daylight, the white lady still called the cops....this is a prima facie case of racial profiling, regardless of what happened inside Gates’s house."

Since the police report only talks about events after the police arrival and didn't even talk about the contents of the 911 call (except that there was a "possible break in"), what facts in the police report about the 911 call did you rely on?

At least we can all be happy that Mr. Gates will tackle the problem of profiling in America. Of course, he could actually target the disease instead of the symptom and try to tackle the huge cultural problem that leads to black males committing a disproportionally large amount of the crime in the country.

It's quite clear race is an issue in this country...what's clearer is WHO is making it an issue. Hint: Gates accused the police (one white and one african american) of being racist before they asked for his ID.

21 FTW

Seriously Elie, your mistake was to believe that the police would "act with basic competence" ?!!

What kind of an apology is that? Talk about blaming the victim. And yes, the cops are just as much victims of your uninformed flames as the caller.

Instead of going to HLS, where all they apparently teach 1Ls is not to take the police's word, you might have spent your time more profitably at a school where they taught the difference between a cause of action and a defense.

Imagine Elie as a cop. Unless there's a Tim Horton's near the precinct house, whitey be %*cked.

NESL > HLS

This is why most of society do not take Black people seriously.

Funniest part of Elie's TrueSlant rant:

This is racism 101, and it’s important for people to understand that. If we want to live in a “post-racial” society, the answer is not to explain away obvious incidents of racism like we have here. If we want to progress, we must learn from these incidents, not excuse them.

I-R-O-N-Y

21 is right on. This is the most begrudging, insincere, half-assed excuse for an apology ever.

"Assuming the woman is telling the truth, then you can't really fault her. You can fault the Cambridge police, for injecting race into a call where race wasn't even mentioned."

SERIOUSLY? I KNOW YOU CAN'T SEE YOUR FEET WHEN YOU STAND UP, BUT HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A POLICE REPORT ELIE?

IT ALWAYS SAYS "BLACK MALES" OR "WHITE FEMALES" OR "HISPANIC YOUTHS" BECAUSE THIS IS AN IDENTIFYING CHARACTERISTIC. POLICE ARE TRAINED TO RECORD RACE, JUST LIKE HEIGHT, AND UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, WEIGHT. A ZEBRA WOULD BE A HORSE IN A POLICE REPORT IF YOU COULDN'T TALK ABOUT ITS BLACK AND WHITE STRIPES.

WHY DO YOU HAVE SUCH AN ISSUE WITH RACE ELIE? YOU ARE ONE OF THE OVERPRIVILEGED. CUT THE CRAP ALREADY.

Elie,

Just stop you idiot. I've never been one to attack you personally, but you are watering down every claim of racism with your McCarthyisms. The cops and the caller weren't racist here.

You are.

Can ATL set up some kind of ATL filter to show posts only from people who aren't Elie?

81 - Amen

21, 62 = WIN, but mainly 21.

If you read the police report, it sounds like Sgt. Crowley encountered the caller at the scene and that there she said that the men were black. It does NOT say that she described the men as black to the 911 dispatcher. Ultimately, this series of posts on ATL says more about Elie's twisted, and grievance-oriented worldview than anything else.

Okay...so, if I see somebody breaking in my neighbor's house (Gates was breaking in because the door was stuck) then it is okay to call the police so long as the breaker-in-ers are NOT Black, or I don't know they are black...but, if they are Black, then if I call, I am a racist?!

Thanks for that insight Idiot.

Elie, if I write you a check for say, $1000, can I shit in your mouth?

A Guy with an extra grand and a high fiber intake

The police report is written after-the-fact. It has no relation to the 911 call. Thus, Sgt. Crowley knew the race of both individuals by the time the report was written and thus he included it. A cop has to cover his butt, so they generally include as much detail as possible.

I swear if Elie writes one more article as racist and ignorant as his usual articles I am no longer reading what he is quickly turning into a god awful website (ATL).

Wow, even with this, the cavalcade of bigotry continues. I’ve always thought Elie was wrong for going off on the caller initially, and I’m black; but that is beside point. Gates never asserted (nor did Obama) that the actions of the caller were anything less than appropriate, even when we all thought, as was incorrectly stated in the police report, that the caller identified the perps as “black” men wearing “backpacks.”

Now we know that this description was flat out incorrect. But none of you seem concerned with how that description found its way into the police report. Also, in a story reported on CNN, Wendy Murphy, the caller’s attorney, says that despite what Sgt. Crowley wrote in his report, the caller never talked to him on the scene and verified this description. She adds for good measure that she doesn’t know with how they’ll attempt to explain away this inconsistency with the truth, nor does she care.

You can also see/hear from the tape of the call that the caller left open the very real possibility that there might not in fact have been a break-in, but instead a resident having trouble with his key – which ironically it turned out to be.

Sure, again, this caller acted justly – nay, saintly! And Elie got it wrong.

But the record is clear: Sgt. Crowley got it much more wrong, and I’m confused as to why this point is lost on you all.

Moreover, if these parts of the police report were wrong, what else was wrong with it?

This apology-but-not smacks of the author being childish and ultimately insecure. The smackdown he received must have really touched a nerve.

Questioned yourself a bit there, Elie?

Lat,

Please explain why this imbecile is still employed as the EIC of your blog.

Superior writing skills? Fail.
Intellectual analysis? Fail.
Ability to separate his beliefs from legitimate legal arguments? Fail.
Ability to relate to your readers and vice versa? Fail.

Seriously. Explain it in a way we can all understand.

elie

How exactly are you different from Theo Epstein?

89 wins with logic. how unlike the atl community.

91

Because a-holes like you and me continue to post in response to the ridiculous Elie posts. They mine as well bring on David Duke too.

Why do you keep posting information about this on this web site. Every time you post something, the right wing wackos get hard-ons and write some stupid crap on this site. It's a sad reminder that this site has been taken over by the fringe right. Stop giving them red meat. All of the info you have here is on every normal mainstream news site.

Please, right-wingers, respond to this 1-in-100 left-leaning comment like like you normally do. Call me a delusional liberal, etc. I love that.

At HLS they also apparently teach that "prima facie" is a phrase you can drop into shitty legal analysis to avoid doing any actual analysis. That, or "prima facie" racial profiling = following up on a 911 call.

All Elis's posts on this subject have done are embarrass his alma mater, this blog, and even the traditional race-baiters' cause. I guess maybe for that we ought to be thanking you.

Where did description of black men wearing backpacks come from?

Why did Sgt. Crowley say he talked to the caller at the scene when she said she never spoke to him, and never said the word “black” during this whole ordeal?

Why did Sgt. Crowley while Gates was in the house with the officers, despites Gates’ repeated demands for it (which he is entitled to pursuant to Mass state law)?

Once Sgt. Crowley saw Gates’ drivers license and Harvard faculty ID, which in the first instance established Gates as a resident of the home, why did Sgt. Crowley make Gates exit his residence?

Once on his porch, why did Sgt. Crowley cuff and arrest Gates, notwithstanding the fact that Gates posed no danger to himself, the cops or the community?

HOW RACIST OF THOSE POLICE DISPATCHERS TO REQUEST A DESCRIPTION OF A SUSPECT!!!!

Where did description of black men wearing backpacks come from?

Why did Sgt. Crowley say he talked to the caller at the scene when she said she never spoke to him, and never said the word “black” during this whole ordeal?

Why did Sgt. Crowley refuse to give Gates his name and badge no. while Gates was in the house with the officers, despites Gates’ repeated demands for it (which he is entitled to pursuant to Mass state law)?

Once Sgt. Crowley saw Gates’ drivers license and Harvard faculty ID, which in the first instance established Gates as a resident of the home, why did Sgt. Crowley make Gates exit his residence?

Once on his porch, why did Sgt. Crowley cuff and arrest Gates, notwithstanding the fact that Gates posed no danger to himself, the cops or the community?

Everyone that doesnt agree with me is a right-wing nut.

Or we can blame you (Elie) for injecting race into the entire "what the caller said" discussion, and fanning the flames of this controversy generally.

Further, you and the president are both guilty of making ill-informed, conclusive statements (ie, "the police acted stupidly" and "the caller said there was a black man breaking into a house") that you both try to then backtrack from once the actual facts become clearer. Legitimate race issues suffer when people such as you cry wolf whenever you could see race in play anywhere.

89 = 93 = Elie

63- That is the DUMBEST thing I have read in a long time. When did "Black" become the default race? The reported suspect was identified as Latino, and yet the cops continue to question a Black guy after providing ID because... I guess any description of "race" is just a fancy way to say "black"? Why not assume that Gates is the homeowner especially since he doesn't fit the description of the suspect? What is the point of using race to identify a suspect if you are just going to disregard it? It makes no more sense than if the cops questioned a white man or an asian man when the suspect is Indian. Was it also just sloppy police reporting to say they had spoken to the caller when they hadn't? This may not have been about race and yes, anything and everything is remotely possible but what is probable or rather "more likely than not?"

101, I'm not Elie, but how did the police not act stupidly. I'll ask the same questions, and you try to provide reasonable answers. Perhaps then I'll understand how this "stupid" description doesn't fit:

Where did description of black men wearing backpacks come from?

Why did Sgt. Crowley say he talked to the caller at the scene when she said she never spoke to him, and never said the word “black” during this whole ordeal?

Why did Sgt. Crowley refuse to give Gates his name and badge no. while Gates was in the house with the officers, despites Gates’ repeated demands for it (which he is entitled to pursuant to Mass state law)?

Once Sgt. Crowley saw Gates’ drivers license and Harvard faculty ID, which in the first instance established Gates as a resident of the home, why did Sgt. Crowley make Gates exit his residence?

Once on his porch, why did Sgt. Crowley cuff and arrest Gates, notwithstanding the fact that Gates posed no danger to himself, the cops or the community?

Who. The. Fuck. Cares?

Its more likely than not that if you are running to say its about race, you are a racist.

While you guys are getting all upset over Elie "the Deli" Mystal's misguided comments, keep in mind the following: This is a legal tabloid, and not a legitimate source of news or public debate. It is meant to be inciteful (and not insightful), the same way Perez Hilton might be inciteful.

Lat keeps Mystal on here because his ridiculous views generate comments, which boost ad revenue. The bigger the idiot he has writing for him, the more money he will probably receive.

Please note that I don't think "inciteful" is actually a valid word.

91,

Lat has been posting a lot lately. I suspect he is realizing that the quality has gone down and is probably in the plans for replacing Elie. However he probably is giving Elie time to find another job. In this market it will take a while (especially because Elie has spent the past year encouraging firms to eliminate positions.)

How the heck did the Cambridge police inject race into this, Elie? It was Gates himself who did so, encouraged by the factually inaccurate racial antagonist-in-chief, Obama

I can't believe that this midget of a clown (and trouble-maker) and the allegedly rogue cop have been invited to the White House! I was laid off from a NY law firm, Obama came to my old law firm and promised better times if he's elected. Why am I not invited to the White House?

@99:

- Sgt. Crowley has insisted that he promptly and repeatedly gave his name and badge number in response to Gates' requests. There's a dispute over that issue.
- As both Gates and the police make clear, Gates did not promptly provide appropriate ID. Even when he did, the erratic behavior and suspicious circumstances justified him remaining. Moreover, as I understand it, Gates invited the officer in and the officer left soon after he determined that Gates was the resident.
- Police are entitled to arrest someone who has committed a crime in public. Sgt. Crowley alleged that Gates committed disorderly conduct. Although that seems to be questionable, your implication that you can only rest someone who poses a clear and present danger is wrong.

I'm a little urprised more of these posters haven't requested ATL request a "real" copy of Obama's birth certificate...

I side with the cop on this one, but...

I like the fact that the cop invited Gates outside (because it was too hard to hear the police radio because of the house's acoustics) and then arrests Gates for creating a scene in public.

Lat,

Please do something about this.

104 -- I was responding to Elie's repeated "we can blame" comments from this story, I don't read comments. Interesting/bizarre that you narcissistically thought I was responding to you. Yours must have been a doozy. They should have arrested him, he should have had a day in court. A judge would have found the facts. A bunch of handwringing by alarmists is not the way to handle it.

112 -- You're "urprised"? Maybe you're just clueless Go save a whale, preferrably in africa

112,

Its because obama spent $27k to have it buried somewhere. Thanks for you contribution.

MysTTTal, you are the worst kind people

The cop had a right and was privileged to ask questions, go inside Gates's house and investigate. What if this was a "domestic abuse" matter, and the cop didn't make an arrest. Then you'd have all feminists and anti-men groups making the same scene, and the BHO still would've said the cop acted "stupidly"... so it's a catch-22 situation. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Unless you're black or a woman, of course

79 wins this thread

Methinks Elie is on double secret probation.

Last 2 stories by Lat.

111, you said...

“As both Gates and the police make clear, Gates did not promptly provide appropriate ID. Even when he did, the erratic behavior and suspicious circumstances justified him remaining. Moreover, as I understand it, Gates invited the officer in and the officer left soon after he determined that Gates was the resident.”

You understand wrong. Here is the police report:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates2.html

As you can see from the officer’s own description of events, he saw Gates’ license and Harvard faculty ID’s once INSIDE the residence, which “led [the officer] to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence…”

However, Gates still was mouthing off, which apparently made the cop mad. In response, because of "acoustics" problems inside (ha!, see paragraph 3), the officer told Gates to come outside, where Gates kept at the officer. Angered, the officer arrested Gates.

111, you also said...

“Police are entitled to arrest someone who has committed a crime in public. Sgt. Crowley alleged that Gates committed disorderly conduct. Although that seems to be questionable, your implication that you can only rest someone who poses a clear and present danger is wrong.”

Disorderly conduct is a catch all for just about any conduct that cops don’t like/agree with, and is always tempered by freedom of speech – especially when on one’s own property. He wasn’t yelling fire in a crowded theater, or physically threatening himself or anyone else. He was being an @sshole and (rightly or wrongly) calling Crowley a racist. This is his right as an American citizen. He was lured outside on his porch by the officer, and then arrested for disorderly conduct.

See here:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/GatesArrest.jpg.jpg

Later, we know today, that cop later embellished the police report to say that the caller provided a race-specific description matching Gates' race, and that the caller talked to the arresting officer on the scene.

119, it wasn't a domestic abuse call. Also, why put that in quotes, as if you doubt the validity of domestic abuse?

(SH*t, when did this become the forum for the birthers? It's like one big Sarah Palin rally on here!)

I am willing to concede that the white lady contends she did not call out the skin color of the two men who were trying to get into the house.

But let's not forget that Sgt. Crowley shot Professor Gates' small dog, shoved Professor Gates off his porch, tased him and then put a knee into his head while the Professor was handcuffed on the ground (the videotape doesn't lie).

These facts alone clearly indicate that President Obama was correct in stating that the Cambridge Police acted stupidly.

A poem:

Elie Mystal, so large and obnoxious,
soon he will pack his things into boxes.

His views are skewed, his analysis flawed,
he will probably never hook up with a broad.

He writes shitty articles about racist police,
I wonder how he received two Harvard degrees.

With the weight of a camel and the wit of a mop,
I'm not sure why Lat lets him write all this slop.

But if he were fired where would he work?
The firms have gotten rid of free food as a perk!

So alas he will probably remain on the staff,
but for the sake of us all please give him the shaft.

122. Hi Elie! *waves*

You douche.

A poem:

Elie Mystal, so large and obnoxious,
soon he will pack his things into boxes.

His views are skewed, his analysis flawed,
he will probably never hook up with a broad.

He writes shitty articles about racist police,
I wonder how he received two Harvard degrees.

With the weight of a camel and the wit of a mop,
I'm not sure why Lat lets him write all this slop.

But if he were fired where would he work?
The firms have gotten rid of free food as a perk!

So alas he will probably remain on the staff,
but for the sake of us all please give him the shaft.

I'm offended that the lady identified them as "men". How could she be so sure? They could have been the masculine-looking halves of two lesbian couples.

I think it is only reasonable that she be no more specific in her description than "biped", lest anyone else be offended.

Lat, 124 here.

Can I get a job at ATL? As you can see, I don't let the facts get in the way of a good narrative...

no 124, they just arrested him for speaking his mind. That's enough to constitute an impermissible deprivation of liberty -- one that you and the rest of the right wing fanatics wouldn't stand for.

Now ask yourself why you think that Dr. Gates should be ok with it.

If my side in an argument is overwhelmingly outnumbered, it must be because everyone else is a Palin-rallying right-wing nut, and not simply because all reasonable-minded liberals are not taking my side.
I will try to question their credibility with ad hominem attacks and poking holes in theories that are barely relevant to the fact that Mystal jumped to racist conclusions and is an overall idiot.

hahaha. 130 - thanks for the joke. i needed the good laugh.

Elie, you are Sofa King stupid.

tomorrow, we are all Latham first years

WTF?

911 operator doesn't ask about height, weight, or what the suspects are wearing?

Only race?

123, my only point is that sometimes things happen for legitimate reasons, not discrimination. Liberal interest groups should realize it and that more often than not it's for their own good.

(Ms. Palin has nothing to do with this. She's a private person, liberal media and politicians should leave her and her family alone now)

131, it could also mean (1) that there are one or two posters with too much time on their hands, or (2) all the posters who share my view are too busy to post.

It could be a host of different things explaining how lopsided the posts are in viewpoint. My best guess is that because there has been a real cultural shift in this country with the election of Obama, and many of the right wing wingnuts are feeling particularly marginalized, they take every opportunity given to the – even on ATL – to rally as loudly and angrily as possible.

They say awful things about Elie and Obama behind the comfort of their keyboards because in polite company, they cannot. I feel sorry for them.

135,

Why, do you want to accuse the police of discriminating against tall/short, fat/skinny, people who wear red hats?

137 -- that people can't speak their mind about the US President really is something to feel sorry about. Because if anything negative is said about this guy, the speaker is a racist, etc....

At least under President Bush, people felt free to speak their mind, and if he hadn't met with NAACP, at least he didn't call them, and others who disagreed with him, stupid in public.

139, no, you are projecting. I've heard this argument before, and I’ve never really been able to understand it. The "if you say anything negative about a black person you are racist" argument doesn’t fly; I think it's more a byproduct of guilt than it is born out by the facts.

Sure, there are some instances where so-called “jokes” about Obama or other non-white public figures take a clearly bigoted turn, and have been called out in conventional circles. But for the most part, this isn’t the case.

Like the South Carolina state politician who recently “joked” that Michele Obama was related to a primate who escaped from the zoo. I actually say right wing wingnuts coming to his defense, arguing that blacks were too sensitive and that it was in fact racist to call his comment racist. Do you share that view, 139?

If so, then what you really want is a world in which we turn a blind eye to racism, sexism, et al. Luckily, through inertia, that world no longer exists, which makes the right wing racists even more angry than they otherwise were (See Holocaust Museum shooting.)

And besides, I’m black, and I have no problem criticizing whites without constantly fearing that I’m going to say or do something racist. Why is this? How can I manage to disagree without being, well, Louis Farrakhan but Rush Limbaugh can't tell a joke about Obama without recalling Dixie?

Oh, for fuck's sweet sake -- to those busily tilting away at the windmill of illogic and race-baiting that seems to have driven discussion of this supremely irritating non-issue: you are wasting your time. Save yourselves the heartache. Just. Don't. Post. When our esteemed blogger(s) see "(0 Comments)" on their [ahem] stories for a few days, perhaps they'll take the hint -- assuming that their advertisers apply it repeatedly with a suitably heavy object -- and leave this kind of tabloid tripe in the intellectual sewer of Entertainment Weekly and Us where it belongs.

-Fondly remembering when this blog used to be interesting.

137 - Do you feel sorry for the people who bash Bush on anonymous forums too? If not, I feel sorry for you.

135: I'll bet Mystal a black and white cookie that the 911 operator was "a person of color".

Boston area civil servant with an attitude--make that 2 black and white cookies and a chocolate Babka.

I don’t care if you prefer Bush or Obama. That’s not the point. I just take offense to the bigoted tone of ATL, and will take every opportunity to expose you right wing wingnuts as silly, unprincipled simpletons.

143,

African americans are the only "persons of color" or minorities. South americans, hispanics, asians - none of those count. You lose. Wait, those are minorities? Shi..

I wonder if Elie had to get Lat's permission before making this post, considering the last two times Elie has posted about this subject he managed to embarrass himself, the blog, Harvard University (imagine that), and probably even his criminal father.

If Lat did give him permission to post this, poor showing, Lat. Elie's lack of critical thinking ability strikes again.

144 - Did you just call ATL right wing? Um... I think you mean't your other right.

140 -- The fact is that an overwhelming majority of blacks vote not based on merit but based on the candidate being black, while whites and even other minorities do not. Then these black mayors, councilmen, and Congressmen, hand out political favors that would dwarf even those of Gov Blag. This is what happened in this Democratic primary and in the general election. From what I've seen, this kind of racial bias politics has ruined too many large cities in this country. I just don't want to see this creep its way to the federal level, at which time we would become like Africa and the Arab world, where being in power is like winning the lottery

Thanks 140. And thanks 148 for judging the overwhelming majority of blacks not as thoughtful individuals but as a collective incapable of making rational informed decisions when it comes to voting. Oh but we know for sure whites and other minorities always vote rational and not based on race. Right.

The more all of the so called anti-racists flapped their gums, the more they betray their anti-racist sentiment. For you, the only proof we can offer of racism is videotape of people in hoods shouting nigger and spraying people with hoses. Anything less can be forgiven or excused.

140, you're right, during Bush's eight years nobody ever compared his physical appearance to a monkey. Because we all know from the Obama supporters that comparing-the-President-to-a-monkey jokes are racist, right? Oh wait, there seems to be a double standard here...

150 = perfect example of ignoring the historical context surrounding comments equating blacks to monkeys. Historical ignorance is bliss...

Cop Bashing = Elie's Best Post Ever

151 = perfect example of not meeting the issue. Yes, historically, you are correct. So what? Answer the damn issue at hand now, in this context.

This is why every immigrant group, no matter how under privileged has surpassed african americans in almost very measure of success.

Anyone hear about the UVA 2L charged with a felony?

151, what people said decades ago in "historical context" has nothing to do with whether persons making the same jokes in 2009 are racist or not. Racism depends on the speaker's mind, not on what completely different people may have thought in 1940, understand?
If we discovered tomorrow that Bush is 1/4 black, did all those Bush-is-a-monkey jokers suddenly become racists?

@106- HUH? What kind of logic is that? Clearly you graduated from Thomas Jefferson's Internet School of Law with an LLM in dumb ass. And based on your own doofus logic wouldn't you ultimately be a racist as well? (implying that another poster is racist would make you racist too stupid). You cannot acquire characteristics of the obvious by simply pointing them out. Like it's obvious to me that you are not shiniest apple in the orchard so does that mean I became a little dumber for realizing just how dumb you are.. hmmmm I'zz see yo point...

The cop was NIFONGED and you could be too! Duke Lacrosse, Sgt. Crowley, anyone who disagrees with Obama- all racists!

148 NAILS it. As soon as you let these idiot minorities vote for people of their own race, the system goes to shit. You get corruption, malfeasance and, and, and BAD STUFF. White people voting for white politicians is what works! It even results in an occasional nonwhite (or female! Sometimes girls get elected!) politician, and then they all have tea and judiciously pass good and useful laws without lining their pockets or making a mockery of the system or ANY of that. After the tea, they all hold hand and sing La La La, we are such good leaders. And the people rejoice and sing their own La La songs.

Why, I can't even (wait, let me back up and declare this a "fact") Why, the fact is, I can't even name any white politicians who've ever cheated, lied, granted special favors, had affairs, or been anything less than upstanding white Christians.

Fucking moron.

I am a liberal black attorney who graduated from HLS. I am frequently bothered by the abuse that Elie takes in the comments. I don't read ATL often enough to know whether or not any of that stuff is remotely warranted.

All that said, I have been following the Gates stuff on here closely, and I have to say that Elie's reporting has quite frankly been an embarrassment.

I felt the need to say something because it pains me that people are reading this nonsense and thinking that it's indicative of the viewpoints and intellect of black students from HLS or even black people in general.

A simple "I was wrong" accompanied with an apology would have been sufficient, but rather than do the honorable thing Elie continues to spew nonsense and make a fool of himself.

Whoever ultimately runs this site, should be thinking long and hard about whether or not you want to be affiliated with this type of garbage.

It is shameful and embarrassing on a whole host of levels.

The cops are racist. Why?

A white Harvard professor would not have been arrested. It is that simple.

http://www.uvalawblog.com/

Mystal exposed as racist. Victory for the little guy. Avoid MSM spin. Private citizen's good reputation restored. Only way to create colorblind society is to dismantle affirmative action and ethnic studies departments.

160: Wrong--a white Harvard professor haranguing a cop would have, and should be, arrested. Next time you're pulled over for speeding (I assume you're white), give lip to the cop and let's see if you don't end up in the back of a squad car.

The people who claim Elie's "bad reporting" are hurting this site are wrong. This site has no reporting. Its popularity makes it a nexus for anonymous tips, so it’s a great site for breaking a story. All the rest is dorky filler. After the story breaks here, we go to the real legal press or mainstream press for reportage and analysis.

I like Elie. Sometimes because he’s still three cuts above most of his commenting detractors, sometimes because he’s amusing, intentionally and otherwise. This incident, though? Dude fucked up, and flew his racist assumption flag a little too high. Then this backhanded and defensive apology. I like him less now.

A thought on the incident: Maybe some racial profiling on both sides? Gates is quicker to get indignant about the situation, and the cop is quicker to assert himself against Gates’ apparently unsubtle anger by making the arrest (which is a cop’s default response to challenging his authority). Racial hostility on both sides gives us two shorter fuses and a quicker escalation, just as Elie’s shorter racial fuse (so I surmise) made him go off on the “cabbed caller” for having acted from racist motivations — wrongly, by the standard of the initial reports as well as what has later been revealed in the 911 call.

I don’t wish Elie to see fired. That’s an uncool wish to harbor. I don’t think Lat posting more would “fix” the site, because I don’t need any more commentary on women’s shoes. I think that tipsters will continue to make this a site of value, and whether the reports are relayed with typos or sartorial speculation is irrelevant. We can always ignore the cringe-worthy ones about lobster picnics.

Ugh. Launched a longwinded post with a grammatical typo. No wonder I've harbored sympathy for EM ...
-- 164

153 - how about you answer 140's original question? Funny thing is he/she never mentioned anything about President Obama. The example given was regarding the monkey comparision was about Michelle Obama. You appear to have missed that in your zeal to disprove even the possibility that the remark made about Michelle Obama could be racist.

Oh and thanks again for making blanket assertions about african americans. We all know that that's the best way to disprove skin color prejudice. Anti-racists are the biggest racists on the planet. They just can't bring themselves to admit it.

Gates-gate = Duke Rape Case, Part Deux

Gates, Elie & Obama = Nifong, Duke professors, media, etc

Whalen and Police = Innocent Duke players

The race pimps feel the ability to profit from their trade is slipping as America moves forward without them. Their emerging irrelevance is breeding an urgent sense of desperation to stay relevant.

Between Lat's witch hunt against Dr. Thiao at NYU and Elie's recent escapades, this site is running off the rails fast.

Keep your personal pet issues to yourselves, boys and girls.

When I went to Harvard, I was gang banged by a group of black Harvard professors and then they really went to town on me. Afterward they called me racist for crying and saying to the police that some African American men in suits gang raped me.

Confused guy with a loose anus

It's SAD that this lady had to lawyer up when she was just trying to do the right thing. Way to encourage people to do nothing, folks!

Sparkling wiggles.

164 = Pretty good flame, almost had me for a second.

Cops investigating a call reporting two men (regardless of race) breaking down a door to a residence = Not stupid
Cops investigating a call reporting two men (regardless of race) breaking down a door to a residence = Not stupid

Cops arresting a man who presents his proof of identification and residence, in his home, absent an exception to the Fourth Amendment = Stupid

Shitstorm the GatesGate issue has created to distract the media/Congress/public from reforming healthcare = Priceless to Republican douchebags who have f*cked this country!

Cops arresting a man who presents his proof of identification and residence, in his home, absent an exception to the Fourth Amendment = Stupid

Shitstorm the GatesGate issue has created to distract the media/Congress/public from reforming healthcare = Priceless to Republicans who have f*cked this country!

171, I remember that video. That girl had EXCELLENT parents.

Elie is an A-hole.
Gates is an A-hole.
Crowley is an A-hole.

Mmmmkay.

173 = Yo' mama's editing.

Cops investigating a call reporting two men (regardless of race) breaking down a door to a residence = Not stupid

Cops arresting a man who presents his proof of identification and residence, in his home, absent an exception to the Fourth Amendment = Stupid

Shitstorm the GatesGate issue has created to distract the media/Congress/public from reforming healthcare = Priceless to Republican douchebags who have f*cked this country!

Story here is that the police report was a total fabrication. That sickens me. Isn't it their job to get the basic facts straight?

Gates maintains that he never made the yo momma remark that Crowley says he made. I have been going back and forth about which of the two was lying, but, after reading the police report again and listening to the 911 call and Whelan's attorney insisting that Whelan did not tell Crowley at the scene that she saw "blackpacks", I am leaning more towards Gate's not having said it.

At best, Gates might have ranted something else that Crowley misheard as a yo momma insult. At worst., Crowley is just lying as a CYA tactic. Either way I dont believe Gate's said it anymore.

177, that's sarcasm, right? You're really just kidding?

It's so hard to tell on this site, what with the garbage one reads here, up top and in so many of the comments.

Dear Elie. SHUUUUUUUUUUUT UUUUPPPP!

I find it absurd that Mystral would try to blame the police report in deflecting criticism of his mind-numbingly stupid "legal analysis", when all his race baiting arguments were based upon his ignoring every word of the police report (at least as it related to Prof. Gates' equally stupid behavior and statements).

This episode shows that (a) pretend lawyers should stick to law firm gossip and not commenting upon actual legal matters (as it explains why law firms have no need for their services) and (b) affirmative action birds of a feather stick together and always have each other's back.

What was Gates's opinion about how the police and prosecution treated the members of the Duke Lacrosse team?

The police report made an error as to the 9-1-1 call, but Sgt. Crowley has confirmed that the 9-1-1 call didn't say the race of the individuals and that he didn't know the race when he showed up, but that Whalen told him the race of the "suspects" when he showed up on the porch. So I think the race getting into the police report was a mistake... not some sort of gross racial profiling on the part of the police... since crowley has said he didn't know the race (because the 9-1-1 call didn't disclose it)

153, thanks for coming, please remember to turn in your white sheet on the way out.

According to Crowley's police report, Whalen told Crowley at the scene that "she observed what appeared to be two black men with backpacks on the porch...[and that] her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door."

According to Whalen's attorney, that conversation never happened. "Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene"

Crowley made up not just the details about black men with back packs, but the entire exchange according to Whelan. To all those who are 100% behind Crowley (I think both men erred), you have to got to admit that in the "he-said/he-said" that is this entire incident, you have to discount Crowley's credibility a bit now.

According to Crowley's police report, Whalen told Crowley at the scene that "she observed what appeared to be two black men with backpacks on the porch...[and that] her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door."

According to Whalen's attorney, that conversation never happened. "Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene"

Crowley made up not just the details about black men with back packs, but the entire exchange according to Whelan. To all those who are 100% behind Crowley (I think both men erred), you have to got to admit that in the "he-said/he-said" that is this entire incident, you have to discount Crowley's credibility a bit now.

The media and the racist black "community activists" owe this woman and the police an apology! Gates' deep-seated racism and hatred of white people caused him to "keep it real" and escalated the confrontation with the police. That man is absolute disgrace!

184 = moron. Open your eyes. The black community keeps inventing instances of "racism" because it's their cash cow. Why do other minority groups succeed without all of the handouts provided to blacks?

I really hope Elie's home gets broken into while his neighbors refuse to call the cops out of both misplaced fear of being called racist and a strong sense that he just might be getting his comeuppence.

Despite what we all want to believe it is the cops that have all the rights in any real life situation. You can get your day in court but only after a night in jail. In my opinion Gates didn't deserve to be arrested but he wasn't arrested because he was black. He was arrested because he mouthed off to a cop, who Gates may have mouthed off to in part because the cop was white.

When Elie gets fired, and he should be fired, it will definitively not be because of his race.

Gates runs a foundation, and he claimed it had just 1% in administrative expenses in 2007. It turns out the foundation actually spent 40% of its income on "administrative expenses," including so-called "grants" to Gates's girlfriend and other cronies.

http://www.propublica.org/article/foundation-run-by-harvards-gates-is-revising-tax-return-after-questions-727

Chang(ing) tax returns we can believe in.

Everyone needs to wake up to the fact--fact--that police too often fabricate self-serving stories, are too often abusive of the authority society gives them, and are bound by the so-called 'code of silence' that doesn't allow them to self-police. These abuses disproportionately affect young black males. Just look at the demographics for this country's prison population. And half of the men and women in there are there because the police officer who stopped them didn't like their "attitude." Whites are also affected by bad cops but usually have additional resources to counteract the abuse, which is why cops typically but not always leave them alone. Think of your city's cops as great white sharks. They are roaming the seas heavily armed and looking for conflict. They literally eat what they kill--promotions come to those who have high numbers of citations and arrests not to those who actually keep the peace. So white or black, police abuse is a problem in this country. This case illustrates that--false police report, refusal to leave the house after confirming no burglary in progress, desire to show Professor Gates he was the boss, etc.

In listening to the 911 call, it struck me that the woman first said that perhaps the men WORK at the home, then she said, or live at the home. I think this is what gave the police the impression that the men were minorities. Would the woman have theorized that the men may work at the home if they were white?...

1. Responding police officers aren't the ones who take the 911 call, and don't listen to the tape prior to responding or preparing their report.

2. The report doesn't say that the 911 caller said the men were black. I know the media has reported it that way, but those two glossy orbs on either side of your nose are called "eyes," and they are extremely well suited to the act of reading for yourself.

One of the first, and most important things, I learned as a lawyer was to recognize when I was digging a hole for myself, and stop digging.

195

the police report does say that the 911 caller, who was instructed to wait at the scene by the 911 operator, told crawley at the scene that she saw two black men with backpacks. The media was reporting based on what was in the police report. All those demanding that the media apologize to the 911 caller: Shouldnt Crwaley, who wrote the report, apologize too?

and 195

please direct your glossy orbs to page 1 of the police report before posting again.

196/197, I think 195 was talking about what Lucia Whalen said in the 911 call itself. The police report does not recite the 911 call, which makes MysTTTal's statement, "I relied on the police to act with basic competence and believed that the police report would accurately reflect the woman's 9-1-1 call. Taking the police's word about the 9-1-1 call wasn't very lawyerly" to be completely wrong. But it's hardly surprising that MysTTTal would distort the truth to further his unapologetically racist agenda.

The "911 caller"'s later statements to the police officer on the sidewalk are wholly separate and unrelated to the contents of the 911 call that was the basis of MysTTTal's "Good Samaritan liability" arugment.

The 911 caller never spoke to the officer at the scene.

Bahahaha...Lets be honest, you wanted the story to be old little racist white woman calls racist white cop to beat up luminous Harvard professor. You bigoted bitch you.

Just as a note, Superwindbag Michael Eric Dyson needs to shut up too. As Donald Rumsfeld says, when you're in a hole, it's a good idea to stop digging.

Everyone is using Elie as the scapegoat (fine whatever) but the reality is that it is Crowley who let us all down. Either Crowley or the caller is a flat out liar. Crowley claims he spoke to the caller at the scene and this is where she gave him the description. The caller says she did not discuss the suspects and only identified herself as the caller. Someone is lying and the tapes back up the caller.