Justice Ginsburg: An Affirmative Action Baby?
The Nine are all divine — but not all Supreme Court justices are created equal. Some are smarter than others. If you quiz former Supreme Court clerks, as we have, you’ll find that the Elect have strong opinions about who the smartest and most capable members of the Court are. (Depressingly enough, even after you became a justice of the United States Supreme Court, people will still rank you by your smarts.)
Liberal and conservative clerks alike generally cite Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg as one of the sharpest and most self-sufficient — i.e., least clerk-dependent and clerk-driven — of the current justices. So some may be surprised by these tidbits, from RBG’s fascinating interview with Emily Bazelon (herself a descendant of Article III aristocracy, the granddaughter of David Bazelon, former chief judge of the Most Holy D.C. Circuit)
What do you think about Judge Sotomayor’s frank remarks that she is a product of affirmative action?JUSTICE GINSBURG: So am I. I was the first tenured woman at Columbia. That was 1972, every law school was looking for its woman. Why? Because Stan Pottinger, who was then head of the office for civil rights of the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, was enforcing the Nixon government contract program. Every university had a contract, and Stan Pottinger would go around and ask, How are you doing on your affirmative-action plan? William McGill, who was then the president of Columbia, was asked by a reporter: How is Columbia doing with its affirmative action? He said, It’s no mistake that the two most recent appointments to the law school are a woman and an African-American man.
And was that you?
JUSTICE GINSBURG: I was the woman. I never would have gotten that invitation from Columbia without the push from the Nixon administration. I understand that there is a thought that people will point to the affirmative-action baby and say she couldn’t have made it if she were judged solely on the merits. But when I got to Columbia I was well regarded by my colleagues even though they certainly disagreed with many of the positions that I was taking. They backed me up: If that’s what I thought, I should be able to speak my mind.
Of course, the case for affirmative action back then, over 30 years ago, may have been stronger than it is today.
More discussion, plus the chance for you to sound off in the comments, after the jump.
Nobody would question the legal abilities or intelligence of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She made law review at both Harvard Law School, where she finished her first year of law school, and Columbia Law School, where she graduated first in her class.
Despite these laurels, she landed “only” a district court clerkship (although, to be fair, it was with the S.D.N.Y. — Judge Edmund L. Palmieri). One would have expected someone with her academic credentials to have ended up with a prestigious circuit clerkship, perhaps on either the D.C. or Second Circuit.
One might also have expected her to join the ranks of the Elect. But Justice Ginsburg failed to secure a Supreme Court clerkship — and it may have had something to do with her gender. From an interesting 2006 article, by Linda Greenhouse for the NYT:
It was not until the 1940’s that any justice hired either a female or black law clerk.Justice William O. Douglas hired the first female clerk, Lucille Lomen, in 1944, and it was 22 years before Justice Hugo L. Black hired the second, Margaret Corcoran. The first black clerk, William T. Coleman Jr., who is still practicing law here, was hired by Justice Felix Frankfurter in 1948.
Justice Frankfurter was not, however, ready to hire a woman when the dean of Harvard Law School strongly recommended a former star student in 1960. He turned down Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
So affirmative action may have been needed back then, decades ago. Does it still make sense today? Or is it the case that — to paraphrase one of RBG’s colleagues, Chief Justice John Roberts — the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race and gender is to stop discriminating on the basis of race and gender?
The Place of Women on the Court [New York Times]




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broken
fixed
1 - I agree that the current system of affirmative action in this country is "broken."
http://letthecurvedothework.blogspot.com/
Until the day arrives that a majority of Americans prove that they are not racist by electing a black President, we will need affirmative action in this nation.
I would still hit it. Hit it old skool.
Lat loves writing about affirmative action, doesn't he?
My understanding of that era is that these institutions simply would not have hired a women, no matter what credentials, if it were not for the efforts of the Fed. One of my friends, a History professor and the first women to be hired in the gov-and under pressure from the government- had to compete against 12000 female phDs to get her job, was it AA? Yes, but that doesn't mean she was any less qualified.
back when RBG went to HLS the school was 492/500 male, hence no equality of opportunity for females to succeed in the legal profession. things have changed.
that site sucks
Must be a slow news day. Lat knows ATL commenters love the race baiting.
I'm a white woman (generally vote Dem. too) and even I am afraid of Sotomayor on the Ct. She just can't seem to get over bad herself. That's no good for anyone in the long run.
I go out of my way to tell people of color that I refuse to hire them because they are of color and that isn't fair to people who are not of color. However, since I am color blind, I just end up getting kicked in the balls a lot by people of every color.
gary Sheffield
I'm a white woman (generally vote Dem. too) and even I am afraid of Sotomayor on the Ct. She just can't seem to get over her bad self. That's no good for anyone in the long run.
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The usual bunch of ignorant and stupid conservatives is about to come out to play.
A more interesting quote from the same interview (emphasis added):
"Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth AND PARTICULARLY GROWTH IN POPULATIONS THAT WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE TOO MANY OF. So that Roe was going to be then set up for Medicaid funding for abortion. Which some people felt would risk coercing women into having abortions when they didn't really want them. But when the court decided McRae, the case came out the other way. And then I realized that my perception of it had been altogether wrong."
You can really see how far we came in just a few years back in the 1950s between O'Connor and RBG- O'Connor was offered secretary positions and ultimately settled for a DA position in San Mateo (1952) while poor Ginsburg had to settle for a crappy SDNY clerkship (1959).
affirmative action is dumb and no longer needed. If you are smart enough to get the job then so be it. There is too much room for the appearance of impropriety in affirmative action.
How many affirmative action beneficiaries today graduate first in their law school class? The number of black cum laude (top 40%) graduates of Harvard each year is abysmal. Was MysTTTal even able to claw his way into the top half?
I'm pretty sure we're comparing apples and oranges here.
Lat, you are smart. You cannot seriously be entertaining the idea that everything is equal now for gender and racial/ethnic minorities. While AA might be a crude instrument, it's better than nothing. I'd imagine every law or policy is both under-inclusive and over-inclusive, but that's no reason in itself to do away with it.
Should we forget the MIT and UChicago study that found "black sounding" names got call backs at 50% the rate that "white sounding" names obtained callbacks. The resumes had identical credentials. Only the name was changed. http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:F27HXWMG65QJ:www.weneedtostop.com/2008/09/warning-having-a-black-soundin.html+law+school+employer+call+back+rate+black+white+name&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Should we forget that women earn 78 cents on the dollar that men earn?
Centuries of intentional discrimination against women and racial minorities cannot be overcome in a few decades. While AA programs will produce gross results in many instances, on whole they do more good than harm. It's wrong that Michal Jordan's kids get in more easily than Bill Gates' kids, but on balance, AA will more often break a "tie" between equally qualified candidates in the favor of the inner city minority or woman.
The general public has very mixed reactions about AA. What should matter more are what academics, professors, higher institutions, and politicians think of AA. The resounding consensus is that AA does more good than bad.
There's a reason why most universities and colleges (especially the top ones) aggressively implement AA programs.
21,
Don't forget the military and the business community. Their brief in Grutter/Gratz was a pretty powerful argument for AA.
It's good to know that Justice Frankfurter's warped politics are still shaping the court. This time in a good way.
Ginso taught at Ruttttgers before CLS. I bettt she has never been back
21, by "black-sounding" they mean "ghetto-sounding", and by "white-sounding" they mean names used by members of the middle class of both black and white races, but let's just call them "white" names anyway. Why don't you do a survey comparing the callback responses of "black" middle-class names like Michael, Janet and Serena and compare that to "white" stripper-names like Tiffani and Brittnee.
Women earn 78 cents on the dollar that men earn because WOMEN AND MEN WORK IN DIFFERENT JOBS THAT SURPRISINGLY DON'T PAY THE SAME. That statistic is one of the most worthless ever, which is not a surprise that feeble-minded liberals like to cite it. Teachers are paid less than policemen and firemen, for good reason, and guess how that skews the gender pay comparison. Newsflash, older people make more than younger people too in the aggregate, which means society must be discriminating against the young. Oh wait, it's because they're not comparing across the same types of jobs and training.
And if you really think affirmative action works in practice by breaking a tie between "equally qualified" candidates, I don't think you're living in this universe.
22, because the military wants to discriminate against whites, that's an argument in favor of discriminating against whites? Why don't you extend that argument to how they feel against gays.
And if businesses want to practice racial discrimination, that's a darn good argument that racial discrimination is a good thing. Ok dude.
25,
You might find traditional black sounding names "ghetto," as you so eloquently put it, but I doubt most African-Americans do. I say this as a black man who does not find those names indicative of being lower class, ghetto, or undereducated. I'll be honest, I admit that people with names like that are more likely to be less classy and undereducated, but that does not mean I should have that reaction when I read a resume as a law firm partner looking for prospective candidates. Did I fail to mention that these resumes were IDENTICAL in credentials. I think at that point, assumptions about "ghettoness" aside, one should be giving a fair shake to all candidates based on their merits.
Women do not simply earn 78 cents on the dollar that men earn. Women earn 78 cents on the dollar for THE SAME JOB. This fact is well documented. You're either ignorant, immature, or manipulative attempt to smear this well established fact is, dare I say, low class.
-21
LAT is Back!
25 = EPIC fail.
Read the study, moron.
And women earn 78 cents on the dollar compared to men for COMPARABLE JOBS and WITH SIMILAR EDUCATIONAL CREDENTIALS.
25 = typical stupid conservative. what a waste of oxygen.
Although we all hold them in high regard, Lat seems peculiarly preoccupied with the D.C. Circuit, SCOTUS Justices, and SCOTUS clerks. Reminds me of that kid from high school who didn't get into an Ivy League college and then put Ivy League colleges on a ridiculous pedestal and talked about them all the time.
but but but women always find the man at fault. just yesterday my gf broke a nail while slamming me in face and said: "See what you made me do now!"
27, the 78% comparison is between full-time women and men in America in the aggregate. The median earning for women is $35,102, while the median earning for men is $45,113 in 2007. That's according to the census. Even pro-women sites acknowledge (and gloss over) that they're comparing the populations in general.
http://www.pay-equity.org/info-time.html
Show me a comparison where the 78% is from the SAME job? Not "comparable" jobs because that is tautological. Tyia.
There has still never been a Native American clerk for the S.Ct. which exercises a heavy hand in Federal Indian law, in spite of a stated deference to Congressional "plenary" power.
There are no Native American federal judges. Yet there are over 4,000 active Native American lawyers.
Racism? Or failure of affirmative action? Both say I.
God I miss reading Lat's writing.
Venable pays 78 cents on the dollar to Skadden...does that mean that only women work at Venable?
Hey look, the census compares the female:male earnings of ALL full-time workers, and found the ratio to be 76-77%.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/005647.html
Could it be that the 78% is the same ratio in a more recent year, comparing across all jobs? Why yes it is. Lol, 25, 27, we're waiting on your "well-documented" studies.
Oops:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/magazine/12ginsburg-t.html
JUSTICE GINSBURG: Yes, the ruling about that surprised me. [Harris v. McRae — in 1980 the court upheld the Hyde Amendment, which forbids the use of Medicaid for abortions.] Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.
the wage gap is real. the methodology is sound. wake up and smell the discrimination.
more analysis of the interview and the uncharacteristic misstep about population growth (which I think was sarcastic) here: http://ms-jd.org/justice-ginsburg-sotomayor-gender-amp-court-amp-roe
if the remark was sarcastic, it was in very poor taste.
Lat's prose is much cleaner than Elie's.
But Elie is funnier.
I think the stories are pretty different. In 1959 when RBG graduated from law school, there was discrimination in law school hiring. By "affirmative action" she means that she was a product of changing those discriminatory policies. I don't think anyone seriously believes that she wouldn't have been hired on her merits.
41,
Read the article
Ironic that the Nixon Admin was the one pushing affirmative action on liberal adademia.
People have "white" names or "black" names?
Thats racist!
the entire nixon administrastion was a very ironic.
24,
RBG was supposed to be the keynote speaker at Rutgers' Women in the law symposium last February, but pancreatic cancer had a different plan. Was this an unfortunate twist of fate, or an elaborate ruse to keep the venerable justice from degrading herself by appearing at the lowest ranked laws school in NJ?
http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/home/women-and-law-celebration
-AA2L
J. Roberts: "the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race and gender is to stop discriminating on the basis of race and gender."
That's like telling Elie the way to stop getting fat from eating moonpies is to stop eating moonpies. It's not really that helpful. There just like with discrimination, there are underlying issues, for example, a lack of self-control, at play. Affirmative action is like political stomach stapling.
21, 27 - show us the evidence of the 78 cents on the dollar. Those "studies" are all BS. If women were really earning 78 cents on the dollar while performing the same (or better) work as men then why don't all the greedy employers hire all women and cut their labor costs by 22%?
38 - Soft eugenics via abortion and sterilization was a core value of Wilsonian-era progressives. Wilson. FDR. The Supreme Court. More than two dozen states. Wilson's progressives have, in large part, become today's liberals when, in the the Democratic party, progressives replaced classical liberals in the 60s.
I didn't hear Ginsburg's voice, so maybe she was being sarcastic. But she is of that era, and I'm inclined to take her at her word.
48, becuase the greedy employers are not announcing to the women that they are getting shorted on pay---becuase they are greedy. You've heard of Lily Ledbetter, yes? Oh, yes, it happens, in real life, out there beyond the stacks.
To 37 -- whoa. Like, whoa.
Lat is really throwing meat to the lions by focusing on the AA angle in covering this interview. There are plenty of other, more interesting aspects to the article.
There are a large number of Judges serving this nation who lack the credentials of Justice Ginsberg. They include persons of both genders and all races. With such laudable personal credentials, did Justice Ginsberg reach out to improve the judical system or did she just seek to fit in?
21:
Consider that AA is the CAUSE of the lower callback rate in the study you cited.
Employers know about AA. They take it into account when they see a minority student's resume. If their only goal is to hire the best candidate, they may rate the minority candidate lower than the non-minority with the same resume, because the non-minority was able to get as far without AA's helping hand.
That is not to say that AA is always bad. In Ginsburg's day, it was necessary, as the comments above explain. But, once law firms *seek out* minorities (to boost their numbers, to attract certain clients), AA at the law school admission level is not as necessary and may be even detrimental to the minorities.
*FYI, I was a beneficiary of AA in the past (scholarships). But, looking back, I think that the existence of AA hurt me (and didn't help other than a small amount of free money). I'm afraid that people will think that I only got to where I am because of AA. Not true, but people who don't know me or my accomplishments may assume that. I just wish people could have a dialogue about ending AA without someone playing the racism card.
to 51 - moar, like, moar.
25 - Wow. "Ghetto Sounding"? Really!? People like you are too ignorant to even attempt to reason with. Your assertion that middle class blacks all have names like "Michael" is idiotic and baseless. Also, why is it that middle class blacks are the only ones you deem worthy of a legal education/career?
the 78% pay gap studies have all been flawed in their own way. Some examples of what they fail to consider:
- Maternity leave
- Seniority
- Negotiating skill (men are generally more aggressive negotiators, therefore have higher salaries)
- "Comparable" does not mean "same". Is 2nd grade teacher "comparable" to college professor? or day care worker?
- "Similar" does not mean "same". Going to harvard law is similar to going to NYLS, in that you get a JD from either one, but they are by no means the same and you'd expect the Harvard grad to be offered a higher salary even in the same job.
Black names and white names: True story, "typical" black names aren't the issue. Its typical black names associated with low-income that don't get called back. Interestingly enough, typical white names associated with low-income (i.e. Britanee) don't get callbacks either.
Affirmative Action:
Women are grossly overrepresented in college and law schools. When I graduated, the incoming freshman class was 70% female. Law Schools are now often women-majority institutions. At what point do women stop needing special treatment in order to advance?
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57 - What makes you think that women are getting special treatment in order to advance. Most colleges and law school aim for about 50/50 gender distribution. There are more women in entering classes these days because they are better qualified than the men, not because they are getting some sort of special treatment.
57, by questioning the liberal party line with reasoned analysis and open-mindedness, you are a racist.
Point of thought - the real-world impact of "beneficial" or "benign" discrimination: NYS Legislators Fire Nearly 200 Workers Over Race
http://brain-terminal.com/posts/2009/07/07/nys-legislators-fire-nearly-200-workers-over-race
I fail to grasp how anyone who cares about equality, liberty, freedom, or just the semblance of fairness can tolerate this kind of behavior by our government.
Lat, as a member of the minority Asian community you seriously cant believe that racism is any different today than it was in 1972. Granted, back then it may have been more publicized, but today it is harder to detect though just as prevelant. As the demographics of the country are changing, one has to question why most large law firms and law school graduates continue to be mostly white males (though white women are now joining that group). Is it just the fact that General Counsel's prefer to see people of their own race? Is it the fact that BigLaw prefer Ivy League graduates, most of whom are white? Granted steps have been taken to fix an otherwise broken system where promotion was based on race, but that said the system is far from fixed.
56, there are several logical errors and grossly incorrect or overbroad assumptions in your post, which hopefully you can manage to figure out if you wish to score above 155 on the LSAT.
OCI is a perfect example of why AA is no longer needed and produces bad results.
I watched many candidates receive interviews and job offers from firms that their performance did not merit. Not to mention the privileged people of color (I mean grew up wealthy & act whiter than I do) that skipped OCI and solely applied thru the diversity fair to secure a job at top firms.
Sure, last year made it difficult to get a job and any other year I prob would have been ok (so I might be a little bitter), but its not fair when the best person (of any color) doesnt receive the job because people are receiving special consideration so the firm can check one of the minorities off their wishlist.
If I have to read one more stupid article regarding race or affirmative action on this blog I think I will puke.
> Is it the fact that BigLaw prefer Ivy League graduates, most of whom are white?
62, What are you talking about?! Ivy League schools heavily use AA. At my Ivy League law school, there was no shortage of Asian men or women. Maybe you are thinking of the distant past...
62,
An obvious answer for that is because more white people go to college and also law school.
there is some choice involved in how far you take your education. whether you drop out or get advanced degrees
To 33,
Miigwetch (Odawa for thank you).
Smartest Supreme Court judge = the court's CLS, as would be expected.
I have to say, I think there is some inconsistency between Ginsberg's desire to see African-Americans receive affirmative action, and her disinclination to see them born:
"Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of. "
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/magazine/12ginsburg-t.html&OQ=_rQ3D2Q26pagewantedQ3D3&OP=94be1d6Q2FkFjdkQ3CQ25Q20b6Q25Q25Puku994k9Q7Bk3ukzncnp8Q5Djk3uc8Q5DbdR6cyPEsPzm
70, you're reading things in that aren't there. If you look at the context, she was talking about poor people, not people of any particular race. (Hmm, is it optimal to have people who can barely afford to take care of themselves to irresponsibly have a bunch of children they can't afford and don't want, anyway? No one wants that.)
70.
She most likely means uneducated people having endless numbers of kids while not working and therefore being a drain on society rather than contributing. That has nothing to do with race. Its about stupid people creating more stupid people.
68 - Aiiniin! Ayaa.
70 - There's a substantial overlap between these two concepts when you consider the progressive context in which they were born. AA -> promoting the best in a race or a group. Abortion -> getting rid of "undesirables" in a race or a group. The use of eugenics (abortion and sterilization, to name a few) to rid groups of the "least fit", particularly the "least fit" in minority groups, is an undisputed core value of traditional American progressivism. Moreover, it's still at work today - African Americans account for 13% population, but at least half of all abortions.
Hillary proudly refers to herself as a "Wilsonian-era progressive." Does she hold these views? Probably not. Does she know that classical liberalism was essentially run out of the Democratic party by progressives in the 60's? Undoubtedly.
Ah, so it's a preference for class-based eugenics rather than racial eugenics (and, oh btw, the class involved is disproportionately African-American). Charming.
"Negotiating skill (men are generally more aggressive negotiators, therefore have higher salaries)"
That's right. When men are assertive, they are referred to as "agressive" and "strong," whereas when women are assertive, they are called "bitch" and that "c" word. I've known plenty of women who were pretty agressive negotiations and were still denied higher salaries, being told "take it or leave it" then find out that men with same or even less credentials got paid more because "they negotiated better." So what does a woman have to do to "negotiate better" to get a higher salary after being told "no" or "take it or leave it"?
Everyone's missing the point. If Justice Ginsberg is referred to as "smart" and "less clerk dependent" I want to know who is the dumbest Justice that relies on their clerks to do everything.
59 - True. Female law school applicants and grads are likely more qualified. Part of that, though, is because of the network of extra support for female students that exists from kindergarten through graduate school. They were originally necessary because girls lagged behind boys in most subjects, but the programs weren't shut down once parity was achieved. So today, boys lag behind girls, because most educational efforts are being directed toward teaching to girls. (Look up the various reports/studies/programs devoted toward encouraging girls in certain areas of studies.)
And what school doesnt have a Women's Law Association, or similar group? These things are all very helpful when the group is a minority that needs an extra hand and extra connections to find work or placement, but when a demographic has become the majority, its not helpful.
How would a Men's Law Association devoted to helping men succeed in the legal field go over? (And spare me the "isnt that just called 'the world"? jokes.) Why is that unacceptable, when men are now the minority on educational campuses and are failing at a much higher rate than women ever were.
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75,
whats wrong with allowing a poor and/or stupid person to have an abortion rather than the poor/stupid person having the baby(s) creating many more poor and potentially stupid people? Its not euthanizing the poorer class. its giving the poorer class an option which if they take it, will benefit society as a whole b/c we have less poor/stupid people
75:
It's not about class. It's about doing the responsible thing given one's financial situation. (The responsible thing was actually to use condoms, but since some people undermine sex education in favor of unrealistic expectations of abstinence...)
Good ACLU article about equality in pay:
http://blog.aclu.org/2009/06/10/equality-in-our-pay-envelopes/
"Of course, the case for affirmative action back then, over 30 years ago, may have been stronger than it is today."
.........yeah right .......
76, if you think women lawyers are underpaid, you are free to create your own women-dominated law firm using these underappreciated talents paid at the proper rates and outcompete all the male-dominated firms.
Jews, when they were genuinely discriminated against in the 1940s and earlier, formed their own law firms and completely dominated the Gentile firms. You may have heard of some of these firms, like Skadden, Paul Weiss, Fried Frank, etc. So where are the outperforming female law firms filled with women who are so heavily discriminated against at other law firms? Or maybe it's easier to start a Jewish law firm in the anti-Semitic 1940s than it is to start a female law firm today? OR maybe the women are already paid what they're worth?
I think the distinction is between allowing and wanting. She suggests that she wants a certain class of people to kill their children pre-birth so that there are less of them around. That's eugenics; you may be a fan of eugenics - that's up to you.
Either way, it's very different than a personal autonomy rationale.
80 - right on. In fact, why should we place the arbitrary divide between Human and Fetus at time of brith? We could move that line a few years forward to the start of Kindergarten.
Still absolutely no cite from any of the liberals about the supposed 78% women-men pay gap for the same job. 82's article, once again, compares all women and all men across the board.
84, don't forget Wolf Block.
Does this mean that girls are going to undercut me in the SA market?
-- Nervous T10 1L.
69- On the Supreme Court, they are Justices not Judges. I guess CLS doesn't teach everything, does it?
If ACLU is for women’s right then I have a few questions for them?
Where were you when Miss USA and Mrs. Palin was under fire just because of thier belief?
Where were you when a littleman I mean letterman promotes the word assult on not only young women but to women?
I don’t see ACLU stepping up to the plate to condenm letterman or the media
for being so stupid so I guess it’s only fair to say that their NOT for WOMEN.
84:
You clearly don't get it. It's not done because the discrimination that starts at youth prevents it. Boys are taught to not cry; girls are rewarded for crying. Boys are encouraged to be 'young go-getters;' girls are taught that they must be liked by everyone (read: don't be bitchy/aggressive). Etc., etc.
This leads to a society in which few women grab for the brass ring. Entire lifetimes of social conditioning prevent it. It's not that women-run firms would not do as well as other firms; it's that women are taught not to try. Even if they did try, some potential clients would say, "Shouldn't you be home with your child?" or other stupid/sexist things (and many of the women would be thinking that themselves).
91: Duh, the ACLU is for LIBERAL womens' rights, just like the NAACP is for LIBERAL blacks' rights. If you don't share their ideology, regardless of your race or gender, you're an enemy and will only be tepidly or not at all defended by them when you're attacked based on sex or race. You nailed the Palin & ACLU examples and the same applies for Blacks & NAACP -- how many times has Thomas been called an Uncle Tom or traitor to his race with little to no NAACP condemnation? This is exactly why many Americans don't take either group seriously any more.
Wow, 93, are you serious? The ACLU is famous for defending groups and people with whom they (and the vast majority of Americans) disagree politically.
The reason the ACLU isn't doing anything about Palin and/or Miss California is that (1) they aren't really for women's rights; they are for the Bill of Rights which says nothing about women's rights, and (2) neither of those situations really involved discrimination based on some sort of protected class; the ACLU is FOR people being "under fire just because of their belief (sic)."
Seriously, how stupid do conservatives have to get before they are left out of the national conversation on nearly every issue?
Gay rights? Irrelevant.
Discrimination against women and minorities? Irrelevant.
See here for a thorough examination of the gender wage gap: http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/CEA/html/gendergap.html
Here are the last two bullets of the executive summary:
-Over the last twenty years, increases in women’s accumulated labor market experience and their movement into higher-paying occupations have played a major role in increasing women’s wages relative to men’s. Changes in family status, in industry structure and in unionization also worked to narrow the gender pay gap, while increasing economic benefits from skills and increasing wage inequality would have, by themselves, widened the pay gap. In addition, the decrease in the pay gap that remains "unexplained" after controlling for measured differences between men and women has been a large contributor to the narrowing of the pay gap.
-The evidence is that labor market discrimination against women persists, although it is difficult to determine precisely how much of the difference in female/male pay is due to discrimination and how much is due to differences in choices or preferences between women and men. One indirect and rough measure of the extent of discrimination remaining in the labor market is the "unexplained" difference in pay. Some studies have tried to measure discrimination directly by looking at pay differences among men and women in very similar jobs or by comparing pay to specific measures of productivity. These studies consistently find evidence of ongoing discrimination in the labor market and support the conclusion that women still face differential treatment on the job.
Sometimes it just takes a little more research than normal to destroy the conservative arguments, but the data and science is always out there. Science and rigorous analysis is not exactly what conservatives do well.
94: Okay, how about Speech Codes at universities? Definite civil liberties issue, but the ACLU somehow justifies supporting them, because they conform with the PC liberal agenda (i.e. if you say anything that anyone of a "protected class" would find offensive, no matter how irrational their stance, you get punished badly).
How about gun rights? 2nd Amendment (last I checked, within the Bill of Rights), and the ACLU has been opposed to them for years. Of for that matter, how about freedom of religion issues or affirmative action (arguably, the biggest unchecked area where government discrimination takes place)?
The ACLU cherry picks civil liberties issues to support. Yes, it has its fair share of "defend the ultra batshit crazy right-winger" cases, but on balance, it's heavily tilted ideologically. Civil liberties aren't a left or right issue -- there are areas where liberals are right on them and areas where conservatives are right on them. Yet, the ACLU only seems to trumpet the liberal civil liberties issues, not the conservative ones.
Why are people talking about the ACLU in this thread, again?
I find it interesting that liberals openly admit that they are in favor of abortion for the purpose of getting rid of growing populations of undesirables, yet their party-line policies promote the continuation of such groups. Moving large swaths of poor into "affordable government housing" that are drug and crime infested and turn once decent neighborhoods into literal ghettos where teen pregnancy is out of control and murder and violence the norm. Furthermore, never ending welfare programs discourage these people from pursuing an education, getting decent jobs and moving out of those government-handout zones.
The female clerk for Douglas is an outlier. Douglas got married four times, each time to a younger wife. He probably thought he was going to get some with his clerk. Any objective analysis would exclude the dirty old man.
"Even if they did try, some potential clients would say, "Shouldn't you be home with your child?" or other stupid/sexist things (and many of the women would be thinking that themselves)."
I find it ridiculous when people arguing for AA or "gender equality" create these fantastical situations (maybe from movie they've seen) where they put words and thoughts into the heads of hypothetical people in order to support their argument. And bother with the anecdotes, either; they are just as irrelevant.
96: You're wrong and/or confused on almost every front, except the Second Amendment.
ACLU and speech codes on private university campuses: They don't do anything because it's a PRIVATE university; there is no state actor and thus no First Amendment issues.
ACLU and speech codes on public university campuses: http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/gen/11448prs20040908.html
http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/youth/11129prs20030306.html
General position: http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12808pub19941231.html
Second Amendment position: http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/gen/35904res20020304.html
Freedom of Religion: The ACLU constantly litigates freedom of expression cases. It is also constant right-wing b.s. that the ACLU doesn't.
See here: http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/26526res20060824.html
Affirmative action: The ACLU supports it, and explains why. It's really funny to equate support of civil liberties with a lack of support of affirmative action.
http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/aa/34596res20080321.html
The pot needs stirring: several studies have shown that there is a 15 point differential between the average IQ of caucasians and African Americans.
And most Asian countries average seven points higher than American whites.
96 just got pwned
Hey, 91, I don't think being fired by the Donald is a form of state action capable of impacting civil rights.
95 - so the study you cite notes that the gender pay gap has been decreasing in recent decades -- and this study was done in 1998?! Its the end of the aughts, for chrissakes.
Even if the trend didn't continue, that doesn't mean that it is still due to discrimination. Even the study you cite calls discrimination a "plausible" source of the unexplained gap.
95, we're talking about the oft-cited statistic of the 78% wage gap and whether that's comparing across all jobs. Even your cite admits that the 78% is computed by comparing ALL women and ALL men across all jobs. Furthermore, your cite says:
"about one-third of the gender pay gap was explained by differences in the skills and experience that women bring to the labor market and about 28 percent was due to differences in industry, occupation, and union status among men and women. Accounting for these differences raised the female/male pay ratio in the late 1980s from about 72 percent to about 88 percent, leaving around 12 percent as an "unexplained" difference."
So about 2/3rds of the "wage gap" is due to the fact that we're not comparing the same job. Funny how liberal never use the higher percentage number that accounts for the same or similar job, when that is the more intellectually honest statistic.
The remaining 12% gap is "unexplained," but the study doesn't tell us whether it was due to sexual discrimination or the fact that women take more maternity leave, etc. Oh wait, the study tells us:
"to the extent that an analyst cannot adequately measure all the determinants of wages using available data, there may be significant unmeasured labor market skills that differ between men and women. For instance, if women’s labor market experience is less likely to be continuous (for example, due to childbearing), then just controlling for years of work may not fully control for the differential effects of experience on male and female wages."
You = EPIC FAIL.
100:
It's not hypothetical. Take how some people treated Sarah Palin, for example... At this point, 100, you seem to just be looking for excuses to keep your mind closed.
106: Agreed, about the liberal manipulation of figures / statistics to bolster the whole victim agenda. Reminds me of the frequently cited "3/4 college women will be sexually assaulted" statistic. It's true so long as you define sexual assault as even mere regret after completely consensual sex.
Er, the stat is actually 1/4, but it's the same idea.
108 = date rapist
This is why white male conservatives mope around at college and in life, whining and claiming victimization.
They argue with accepted theories and ideas, feign ignorance when contrary evidence is presented in front of them, and constantly try to fight any and all efforts to make life easier for women and minorities. In just one thread, we've gone from an almost decent hashing out of some serious issues involved in the gender gap to white male conservative cries of "forgery" and "liberal fake" on the same to new cries of "forgery" when it comes to sexual assault on college campuses. I mean, seriously? How stupid and irrelevant can conservatives get?
women need to learn to be more directly when they communicate.
For example:
You send an email to a person at their business email address but the recipient would perfer you communicate with them at their home email address and now communicates this back to you.
Woman: "Didn't I give you my home email address?"
Man: "Please don't send emails to me at the firm, you can contact me at my home address."
Do women normally regret sleeping with you, 108?
When your side's arguments are discredited by your side's own Clinton-era study, showing that the oft-cited "78%" wage gap numbers are not comparing within the same job, just make ad hominem attacks against the other side and pretend that they've used words you're supposedly quoting. Way to go, 111.
I think 112 needs to "learn to be more directly." WTF are you talking about, 112? And why is it that only women need to be more direct...?
WTF are you talking about, 112? And why is it that only women need to be more direct...?
115- woman
case closed
You see, white people have names like Lenny, while black people have names like Karl.
Are you saying that men and women are identical?
- Oh, no, of course not! Women are unique in every way.
Now he's saying men and women aren't equal!
- No, no, no! It's the differences of which there are none that makes the sameness exceptional!
RBG represents yet another example of why affirmative discrimination is like shoving a straw up your nose to drink.
But let's dispense with the euphemisms. Having this affirmative discrimination baby on the Court is like a straight virgin man getting penetrated from behind by Ron Jeremy on a if-erection-lasts-for-more-than-4-hours binge.
It's painful.
116 = man (case closed)
112 = 116
" If their only goal is to hire the best candidate, they may rate the minority candidate lower than the non-minority with the same resume, because the non-minority was able to get as far without AA's helping hand."
There is only reason someone would accept your reasoning and decide a minority "must" be "less-qualified," than a white candidate: The potential employer is already racist.
Because to assume that a black candidate's scores "must" have been lower, is racist.
To assume that a candidate from a disadvantaged background would be entirely less qualified, in all respects, than an another candidate who answered a handful of questions differently on ONE standardized test, and so scored three or four points higher... yeah, that is racist.
So if, as you say, employers do this all the time, then yes Virginia, racism exists.
122, if you were smart enough to not be an affirmative action beneficiary, you would know that you shouldn't quote words like "must" that did not appear in the original post, which you conveniently use in order for you to set up a strawman argument.
An employer has three choices: someone who got into Harvard undergrad because of his tuba-playing skills, someone who got into Harvard because his father went there, someone who got into Harvard because of the color of his skin, and someone who got into Harvard on academic merit. On average who will be the most qualified in the eyes of most employers?
Yes yes I know, I'm a racist.
122: We're not talking about 3-4 points, we're talking about 10-15 points, which is something like half a section or more of questions, and which an employer could reasonably believe represents a significant different in aptitude among two candidates. To quote some stats:
"In 2004, 10,370 blacks took the LSAT examination. Only 29 blacks, or 0.3 percent of all LSAT test takers, scored 170 or above. In contrast, more than 1,900 white test takers scored 170 or above on the LSAT. They made up 3.1 percent of all white test takers. Thus whites were more than 10 times as likely as blacks to score 170 or above on the LSAT. There were 66 times as many whites as blacks who scored 170 or above on the test.
Even if we drop the scoring level to 165, a level equal to the mean score of students enrolling at law schools ranked in the top 10 nationwide but not at the very top, we still find very few blacks. There were 108 blacks scoring 165 or better on the LSAT in 2004. They made up 1 percent of all black test takers. For whites, there were 6,689 test takers who scored 165 or above. They made up 10.6 percent of all white students who took the LSAT examination."
From: http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_graduate_admissions_test.html
"three" = "four" because I added the legacy example later.
-- 123
Can someone explain what is wrong with eugenics, in and of itself? I'm not talking about eugenics campaigns implemented through coercion. But if I were to set up a nonprofit that compensated women $500/mo for coming in and receiving depo provera shots, and if I marketed this benefit in a way that deliberately appealed primarily to certain populations...meh. Would the harm caused by my conduct really outweigh the benefits?
124, I will save 122 some trouble: you are a racist. The LSAT is racist. Statistics are racist. Numbers are racist. The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education is racist.
124,
Facts are stubborn things.
So stubborn, in fact, that AA defenders can't make them go away by reverting to their usual tactics: Calling their opponents racists, hate-mongers, and bigots.
Then again, there's always "empathy" (as long as it's empathy for the right groups, mind you).
126 here: let's say that by "certain populations" I mean women with rhinestone-embezzled juicy couture pants.
The Creative Steps Day Care children -- ages kindergarten through seventh grade -- went to the Valley Swim Club in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, on June 29.
The day center's director, Alethea Wright, had contracted to use the club once a week. During their first visit, some children said they heard club members asking why African-American children were there.
One of the boys told the Philadelphia Inquirer that a woman at the club said she feared the children "might do something" to her child.
Days later, the day care center's $1,950 check was returned without explanation, Wright said.
The stepfather of one of the children was filing a complaint against the club with the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission, the panel's chairman, Stephen Glassman, said Thursday.
The commission is investigating the allegations, spokeswoman Shannon Powers said, and will attempt to resolve the conflict out of court.
Sen. Arlen Specter's office said the Pennsylvania Democrat has sent a letter to the Valley Swim Club president asking him to reinstate the contract with Creative Steps, saying, "I think that you would agree that there is no place for racism in America today."
CNN attempted to speak with club President John Duesler on Thursday. He said he had no comment and asked CNN to leave the club property.
But Duesler told two Philadelphia television stations that the children had changed "the complexion" and "atmosphere" of the club.
A small group of protesters gathered in front of the club Thursday and said they think Duesler's statements prove that the club's action was racially motivated.
"I was hoping it wouldn't be something that was so blatantly apparent. I was hoping that it was overcrowding," one protester said. "When I read the statement by the club president, it made it blatant."
Jim Flynn, who said he was one of the club members who made a complaint against the children, said it was not racially motivated.
"There were a lot of children in the pool and not enough lifeguards," he said. "As general members, we were not told that they were coming. If we knew, we could decide to not come when the pool was crowded or come anyway. We could have had an option."
He said two other day-care centers, neither of which included minority children, had previously been similarly disinvited.
A private Philadelphia boarding school said Thursday that it plans to help the day care center.
"We thought it was appalling what happened," Girard College Admissions Director Tamara Leclair said.
She is meeting with the director of Creative Steps to sign a contract allowing the children to use Girard's facilities this summer, as early as Monday.
130 -- Funny how that article gets posted all over the place, but the article about the mob of black teenagers attacking the white family in Akron gets covered nowhere but Drudge:
"Out of nowhere, the six were attacked by dozens of teenage boys, who shouted ''This is our world'' and ''This is a black world'' as they confronted Marshall and his family.
The Marshalls, who are white, say the crowd of teens who attacked them and two friends June 27 on Girard Street numbered close to 50. The teens were all black.
...
They said it started when one teen, without any words or warning, blindsided and assaulted Marshall's friend as he stood outside with the others.
When Marshall, 39, jumped in, he found himself being attacked by the growing group of teens.
His daughter, Rachel, 15, who weighs about 90 pounds, tried to come to his rescue. The teens pushed her to the ground."
http://www.ohio.com/news/50172282.html
In other words, racially-motivated exclusion by idiotic whites against blacks = outrageous. Racially-motivated "beating the crap out of the other race" by idiotic blacks against whites (such as this incident and Jena) = not newsworthy.
130 here. Guess there are two sides to the story. Got to tell you though, i was sitting in a car at a light on vine street with my window open when there was a big bag right by my head. I looked around and all a saw was an empty school bus. Then this little creapy white kid stuck his head up with a big smile on his face and sling shot in his hand.
131 - Let me answer that for you: "It's all Bush's fault."
Nothing ironic about the Nixon administration doing this. With all the accusations of antisemitism and racism the uneducated have leveled against him, those who take the time to investigate know that 1) there would be no Israel without Nixon and 2) Nixon did more for racial integration than Johnson ever did. It's one thing for SCOTUS to say racial equality is the law of the land, but it was the Nixon WH that enforced that (See Andrew Jackson & the Trail of Tears). God bless RN (and all his faults).
134: Agreed, and the explanation of how he was able to do it is arguably the same as how he was able to establish ties with Communist China. Only Nixon, appearing as such a staunch conservative, would be above reproach enough to engage the Communist Chinese. And similarly, only Nixon, appearing as such a staunch conservative, would be above reproach enough to enact liberal antidiscrimination reforms. For all the crap (some of which justified) that Nixon gets, he really did accomplish a lot.
You guys have waaaaaay too much faith in the idea of academic merit. Tests show what a person knows about a particular subject at a particular point in time. They are not intended to be predictive, and they are really unreliable when used in that manner.