Dr. Li-Ann Thio: All About Her Mother
We sometimes like to think of the figures we write about in these pages as characters in a novel. Viewed in this way, Dr. Li-ann Thio, the visiting NYU law professor who apparently isn’t a fan of gay rights, is one of the most compelling we’ve come across recently.
We have a weakness for strong, outspoken Asian women — hi Mom! — and this description fits Dr. Thio to a T. Our only disappointment: Dr. Thio was whiny when attacked. (We agree with Professor Brian Leiter — playing the victim card was weak, Dr. Thio.)
Now, meet an even more compelling character — one who wouldn’t have responded to a random IT guy by playing victim, but by treating him like Obama treated that fly. She’s the original Dr. Thio: Li-ann Thio’s mother, Dr. Su Mien Thio (pictured), who taught Thio the Younger everything she knows (e.g., that gay sex is evil).
From a tipster:
It looks like Dr. Thio’s mother — a former judge who inspired Li-ann Thio’s own rise in politics — was involved in some serious anti-gay drama this year, after battling what she saw as a conspiracy to generate a “generation of lesbians.”It all started with unrest over a screening of Spider Lilies, a lusty Taiwanese movie about an Internet cam girl [Ed. note: A cam girl? Like SexyLexus?] falling in love with another girl. The elder Dr. Thio, filled with the same heroic indignation as her daughter, filled with the same heroic indignation as her daughter, ended up locked out of a building after a failed takeover of a feminist organization.
And the trailer for the movie is totally hot!
Update: Not surprisingly, given her staunch opposition to homosexuality, Dr. Thio Su Mien is also against abortion. A headline from Roll on Friday: “Leading Singaporean lawyer blames abortion for SARS.”
More about the Spider Lilies controversy and Dr. Su Mien Thio’s impressive résumé, after the jump.
First, a bit more about Dr. Su Mien Thio, a former judge and law school dean with credentials as dazzling as her daughter’s. From Dr. Thio Su Mien’s law firm bio:
Dr Thio has a distinguished professional history, having been the Dean of the Law Faculty at the University of Singapore, a senior partner in a large firm in Singapore, and holding Judgeships in the administrative tribunals of the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank for various terms.Very much a grand dame of the corporate legal scene (her looks, as you can see, belie her experience), she counts many of the country’s judges and high-ranking officials among her ex-students.
“[H]er looks, as you can see, belie her experience.” Has she had some plastic surgery, or is it just those Asian genes? (For a less flattering photo, click here; for a more flattering photo, taken back when she was dean, click here.)
Law firm bios are often full of puffery, but S.M. Thio is the real deal. According to Chambers & Partners, publishers of authoritative guides to lawyers worldwide, Thio Mère is one of Singapore’s leading banking and finance lawyers, “highly renowned and a firmly established name in the legal community.”
Second, as for Spider Lilies, an award-winning Taiwanese lesbian drama film, the trouble began when the Association of Women for Action and Research (AWARE) hosted a screening of the movie. This, combined with statements in AWARE literature to the effect that “homosexuality is neutral” and “anal sex can be healthy,” did not go over well with Thio Su Mien.
So Su Mien Thio orchestrated a coup, recruiting like-minded woman to join the group in droves. Her well-orchestrated, stealthy efforts resulted in new leaders being installed at AWARE. And even though Su Mien Thio was not one of the new leaders, it was clear to everyone that she was the power behind the throne:
At a press conference hastily called by some members of the new executive committee (exco) of the Association of Women for Action and Research (AWARE) [back in April], the most prominent person at the head table was not even a member of the exco.Thio Su Mien (right) had evidently decided she could no longer rely on the hachet-women she had put into AWARE’s exco to hold their own in the face of media publicity. They had done a risible job ever since the controversy broke.
Thio, who is the mother of Nominated Member of Parliament Thio Li-Ann — yes, the same one known for her tirade against gay sex in Parliament in October 2007 — was introduced to the media as the “feminist mentor” of the exco leaders. Asked about what role she had played, she effectively conceded to the media that she was the mastermind behind the putsch.
But Dr. S.M. Thio’s victory was short-lived. As reported by the Singapore Straits-Times, her minions were eventually thrown out of the leadership of AWARE. At an extraordinary general meeting (EGM) of the organization, Dr. Thio tried to speak, but “was booed by the large crowd at the EGM, and shouted down when she tried to explain that she was a Singapore woman pioneer.”
It sounds like she needs a break from Singapore. Maybe she should spend the fall in New York, where she can crash at her daughter’s digs by NYU. It sounds like a great sitcom pitch: two homophobic female lawyers from Singapore spend a year living in Greenwich Village, where they learn to love the gays.
Alas, converting the Doctors Thio into card-carrying members of PFLAG won’t be easy. Their opposition to homosexuality is longstanding. Back in 2003, S.M. Thio wrote a letter to the Singapore Straits-Times (scroll down to “No to homosexuality”) asserting that “[h]omosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a mental disorder:” Although the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM), it did so, according to Dr. Thio’s letter, as “a result of pressure tactics of homosexual activists, rather than scientific data.”
Some might disagree. Malik Graves-Pryor — the impudent IT guy at NYU, whose angry letter to Dean Richard Revesz prompted an 18-point response from Dr. Li-ann Thio — hasissued a rebuttal to Dr. Thio (the younger). He discusses how various groups of psychiatrists and psychologists have changed their views of homosexuality over the years. You can read his full letter below.
MALIK GRAVES-PRYOR — OPEN LETTER TO DEAN REVESZ, MEMBERS OF HAUSER GLOBAL, AND DR. LI-ANN THIO
Greetings Dean Revesz, members of Hauser Global,
cc: Professor Li-Ann Thio
Professor Thio presented several interesting arguments regarding the nature of freedom of speech, differing legal and moral viewpoints, tolerance for those differences, and finally the concept of Academic Freedom.
And while I felt the strong urge to discuss these individual topics as a student and as a person directly affected by the views she shares with the anti-gay bloc here in the United States, I realize that at a fundamental level, Professor Thio’s reply has shed light on her lack of qualification to teach “Human Rights Law in Asia.”
Academic Freedom is a concept that has been hard fought for and won through the years due to persecution by society and governments for ideas that go against the popular; the acceptable; the status quo. To be a member of the avant-garde in any field brings with it risks that academia decided long ago to negate as much as possible, hence the creation of Academic Freedom.
It is the freedom to engage in rigorous scholarship, that which may be exploratory and/or even controversial. However, after reviewing Professor Thio’s arguments against basic LGBT recognition and equality, her legal, scholarly, and intellectual opinions on this subject fail as neither rigorous nor scholarly.
Her arguments are in fact nothing more than logical fallacies and/or debunked and discredited pseudo-science, relying on debating techniques which serve as nothing more than pure deflection from the fact that her prejudices, biases, and outright hostilities towards LGBT individuals have no redeeming academic value, and no place within the walls of the NYU School of Law.
Below are three items that are among the most egregious:
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ITEM #1 - Ex-Gays and Conversion Therapy
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Professor Thio references several “ex-gay” friends of hers who suffer backlash from the LGBT community when they speak out. She states that they have a right to change their sexual orientation and defends the “ex-gay” concept as scientifically “unsettled” and indeed “controversial”.
Her beliefs, however, have long been debunked and discredited, labeled as nothing more than pseudo-science at best, and a license to pursue harsh and inhumane legal penalties at worst.
The worldwide scientific and medical consensus concluded years ago that “ex-gay” conversion therapy never did work, does not work, never will work, and is in fact harmful and detrimental to the mental health of LGBT individuals.
The American Psychiatric Association put out a statement in 1998 which reads:
“The potential risks of “reparative therapy” are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone “reparative therapy” relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed. Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as “reparative” or “conversion” therapy which is based upon the priori assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation.”
The American Psychological Association put out a statement in 2006 reiterating this scientific consensus viewpoint. It reads:
“For over three decades the consensus of the mental health community has been that homosexuality is not an illness and therefore not in need of a cure. The APA’s concern about the position’s espoused by NARTH (The National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) and so-called conversion therapy as that they are not supported by the science. There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Our further concern is that the positions espoused by NARTH and Focus on the Family create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.”
Professor Thio’s past and present reliance upon “ex-gay” fringe theology, for lack of a better word, is neither scholarly nor rigorous in light of this scientific consensus.
If she truly believed in the core principles of Academic Freedom, rather than using it as a convenient shield when it suits her, she would expunge this outmoded and nonfactual rhetoric and instead embrace scientific truth.
Because she has not done so, her beliefs do not meet the criteria for protection under Academic Freedom and reflect poorly upon her credentials as a legal professional on the subject of Human Rights as it pertains to the LGBT community and individuals.
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ITEM #2 - Respect
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Professor Thio states that she has first-hand experience as a minority (a person of color, an Asian) and takes offense. The implication, of course, is that she would not discriminate against other minorities. Similarly, she mentions that she has gay friends and students who know that she “respects them” despite their differences.
This is clearly a logical fallacy. The word “Respect” has multiple meanings and derivations, all of which point to being held in honor and esteem, refraining from intruding upon or interfering with another individual, and to welcome and/or greet said individual.
None of the meanings of the word “Respect” apply to one who has sought for the continued defamation and criminalization of another class of human being. And as we have seen in the black community in terms of its general disrespect and disregard for the LGBT community and individuals, minority status does not automatically preclude one from holding prejudices, biases, and even outright hatreds for other minorities.
Proposition 8 is a stark reminder of this reality, where a disproportionate number of blacks, 70%+, voted for it whereas other racial/ethnic groups were in the 40-55% range in support.
In other words, Professor Thio can no more use her status as an Asian woman or use her so-called “Respect” for her LGBT colleagues and students as a shield while simultaneously having worked for and spoken vociferously for their continued relegation as second class citizens, subject to criminal prosecution and societal scorn.
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ITEM #3 - “Affluent and Literate Gays”
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Professor Thio mentioned that real estate developers cater their high quality dwellings for the consumption of “homosexuals in Singapore [who] are by and large affluent and literate”. She argues that due to their wealth they are able “to lead quiet lives which most of us want,” and that “they are basically left alone in practice.”
First, many sociological studies have shown that gays and lesbians cover the same socio-economic strata as every other population group. Unfortunately, Professor Thio has chosen to rely upon the debunked pseudo-science of the “rich gay” myth.
She should take the opportunity to read, for example, the peer-reviewed and oft-cited “Income Inflation: The myth of affluence among gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans”, a 1998 joint study released by the Policy Institute of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Institute for Gay and Lesbian Strategic Studies. The primary writer was Lee Badgett, a professor at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst.
Since this and other peer-reviewed and accepted research has been readily available for a decade, I hope that Professor Thio will avail herself of this information now that she has undeniably been exposed to it as of today.
Second, the reason why it may appear that all gays in Singapore are wealthy is due to the fact that economic stability is one of the primary ways in which LGBT individuals are attacked in society.
Whether it is the teenager who is kicked out of their home before they are ready and finding themselves on the street with no economic recourse for no other reason than their sexuality, or the person who is fired from their job for no other reason than their sexuality, socio-economic terrorism has long been one of the primary ways to keep LGBT individuals “in the closet”.
Individuals who feel no economic threat are thus more inclined to come out in repressive societies.
Third, Singaporean law, Section 377A states:
“Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.”
While she states that members of the LGBT community are “basically left alone in practice,” the sheer fact that the law of the land codifies discrimination, persecution, and fear presents an untenably hostile situation for said members of the LGBT community. This much has been proven by numerous studies on the effects of legal restrictions and penalizations against women, blacks, and other minorities here in the United States.
Nothing about the human condition changes when it is repressed, even if the repression is selectively enforced. It holds deleterious social, economic, mental, and emotional effects on those who are the subject of said repression, and it is deplorable that a member of parliament and a legal scholar would choose io ignore these well-established facts.
Additionally, due to the fact that sex between same-sex individuals is criminally prohibited in Singapore, the dissemination of safer-sex materials (pamphlets, condoms, videos, seminars, etc) for same-sex individuals for the purpose of same-sex sexual interactions is also prohibited. This has naturally led to a significant roadblock in the attempts to slow and ultimately cease the spread of HIV and other sexually-transmitted diseases, a roadblock which clearly moves into the sphere of life and death.
In other words, Professor Thio allows her biases to cloud her judgment and clarity on issues pertaining to the LGBT community when there is established scientific consensus and legal precedent that clearly invalidate her beliefs.
————————
Dean Revesz, members of Hauser Global,
Is this the kind of representative that the NYU School of Law desires? One who parrots logical fallacies and spouts debunked and discredited theories only supported by right-wing fundamentalist theology held by some fringe religious groups and churches? Do you desire this individual who so lacks in scholarly rigor in the issue of Human Rights as they pertain to the LGBT community and then hides behind Academic Freedom as a way to mask her deeply ingrained prejudice and malice toward said LGBT community?
Thankfully she cannot simply ignore LGBT rights in this fall’s course, particularly given recent events in India. To ignore the issue would pose a grave academic disservice to her students. Therefore, she must cover an issue that is identical to what provoked her abhorrent speech—the repeal of a law that was a vestige of British colonial powers. Because she was unable to discuss this topic in Parliament without using what amounts to unfounded, unscholarly, and debunked ideas regarding sexuality, and reiterated her strong and unchanging positions in email just days ago, she should be precluded from being given another opportunity to spread her discredited beliefs while passing them off as rigorous, contemplative, and unassailable academic thought.
Above all else, I certainly hope that this is not the kind of representative the NYU School of Law, and NYU as the larger entity, desire as an avatar to the world.
If not, you have only one choice: full and immediate revocation of her position as visiting faculty member for the purpose of teaching “Human Rights Law in Asia”. As has been shown, she does not bring an unbiased scholarly rigor to this subject and is thus wholly unqualified to serve in this capacity.
That said, Professor Thio,
You mentioned being “tired of this obsessive and narcissistic obsession with ONE of the speeches [you] made during [your] 2.5 years tenure in Parliament.”
If you truly feel this way, I have an appropriate balm for your wound.
Go before Parliament again and not only rebuke and disassociate yourself from your prior statements on the LGBT community and individuals, but bring forward a bill for the full decriminalization of LGBT sexual interactions and the instatement of full equal rights for LGBT citizens of Singapore as well.
Only then will you find the peace you so desire on this issue.
In closing, I’d like to leave you and everyone else with a final thought. In the words of Martin Luther King Jr., “Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”
You may not realize it, but people who place bigotry, prejudice, and bias above equality, human decency, and justice have already lost. Even 10-20 years ago, i.e., within my lifetime, the anti-gay bloc here in the United States led by such luminaries as Pat Robertson, Tony Perkins, and Anita Bryant felt triumphant in their successes. And yet, look at the state of their movement today.
And while there is a long way to go before full and equal rights are had by all LGBT individuals in these United States, we have indeed come a long way. The fact that I can marry my in-all-things-save-federal-recognition husband of nearly 9 years in Iowa, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, and Maine, and have that marriage recognized here in New York State is a far change from the position of the psychiatric community 40 years ago which would have surely put us behind bars and subjected us to all kinds of medieval “reparative” therapy.
In other words, even if it may take a lifetime, we know that when the light of science is shone and the collective weight of human empathy bears down, these views will be relegated to the abyss of the unimportant periphery.
If you are truly concerned with the bedrock principle of Academic Freedom, you will realize this and modify your thinking. If you choose not to, it will only further the impression your 2007 speech to Parliament and your Saturday email reply fomented.
With that, I thank all of you for allowing me to participate in this discussion as a free-speaking member of the NYU community. One of the things I value as a member of this community is the respect you place on freedom of speech and the spirited and robust intellectual debate founded upon scientifically proven fact. This is a privilege not found in many places of employment, and even in some places of academia, so for that, I am truly grateful.
That said, I hope that it has been as invigorating and illuminating for you as it has certainly been for me.
Sincerely,
Malik Graves-Pryor
Dr. Thio Su Mien [TSMP Law Corporation]
Banking & Finance: Singapore [Chambers & Partners]
Thio Su Mien’s idea of a takeover unravelled [Singapore Straits Times]
Coup leader comes open [Singapore Straits Times]
AWARE press conference [Yawning Bread]
Debunking the “pro family” fallacies perpetuated by Dr Thio Su Mien [The Wayang Party]
Earlier: Prior ATL coverage of Li-ann Thio
(102) Comments
Comments
Firstonista!
Goddammit, second
How can she have a mother when she sprang fully grown from the giant, meaty hand of Zeus?
"[H]er looks, as you can see, belie her experience."
Can you imagine that on an American law firm's website?
Enough already! This wasn't interesting the first five times. I know the whole Asian-against-gays thing hits a nerve with you Lat, but some of us are neither Asian nor gay nor NYU
Holy shit, who gives a fuck?
5 - Look at the "Most Commented" stories. The #1, #3, and #4 stories are all about Thio.
YOU may not be interested (in which case, don't read these posts). But other readers clearly are.
As long as these posts continue to generate hundreds of comments (and page views) for ATL, expect them to continue.
6 - See 7.
I think Lat is a gay homosexual.
7 8 9
I can't see anything wrong with two beautiful women falling in love with each other, provided I can see their sapphic interactions on webcam.
The fact that Mother Thio is a banking lawyer at a firm makes this a little more relevant to the ATL audience.
5 & 6 ftw. 7 and 8 -- not so much.
WHO CARES!!!! This site is such a joke.
Too long. Didn't read.
I agree with 7. If you don't like a post, then don't read it.
14 - The same goes for ATL as a whole. Don't like, don't read.
Random NYU IT guy sure seems to have a bee in his bonnet over this.
Malik Graves-Pryor = Roxana
I watched all 3 trailers, I'll be in the men's room if anybody needs me.
I used to work in elder Thio's firm. She was (and is) highly regarded in Singapore for her legal acumen.
Unfortunately, as we all know, academic and practical knowledge does not translate necessarily into logical skills or good reasoning.
I am sorry that even though mother and daughter have more degrees than I have orifices, their arguments in favor of banning consensual anal intercourse (or any other form of intercourse other than penile-vaginal intercourse) in Singapore bears the hallmark of the discourse of a 12 year old. All that wasted education.
Could the mother's ire come from the fact that she found her daughter compulsively masturbating to the Spider Lilies movie? That would explain a lot.
According to the daughter, lesbianism is fine since it doesn't involve putting straws up your nose. The mother obviously disagrees.
20 - Nice comment. Thanks for the info.
obviously not written by malik graves-pryor
That trailer IS hot. Does anyone know if the movie is available in America?
Does the elder Thio have ginormous man hands as well?
Enough, Lat. Enough.
Sorry to be elitist, but is it really a surprise that "legal scholars" from a third world, bass-akwards, poverty stricken, and authoritarian country are against gays?
Seriously, it's like being surprised that "legal scholars" from Saudi Arabia think that women are second class citizens, unworthy of leaving the house without a male escort. Or like being surprised that "legal scholars" from Iran believe that law functions best when church and state are explicitly intertwined.
They are intelligent women who are credentialed from some of the finest institutions this world has to offer. But like they say, you can take the woman out of the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto out of the woman. Sadly, not even fine institutions can normalize a person who is programmed to hate throughout her childhood.
The real story, that nobody seems to be addressing, is the question of elitism. This isn't to say, "haha, the West is soooo right about everything, and it's because we are who we are and you all are inferior because you are who you are." Rather, it is to say "we are farther along on the moral debate spectrum. History, bloodshed, intolerance, triumph, failure, and sweat have taught us, through reflection, of TRUTHS that societies not as advanced as ours can only hope to have now."
Those societies will eventually come to the conclusions we have, but they must do it on their own. Forget about the specifics of Dr. Thio and her mother. Sure they are anecdotal stories, but focus on the real IDEA seething below the surface. The WEST is superior in its understanding of human rights. Historic and cultural circumstances have led this to be the case and we're farther along the spectrum. This observation is not an insult to Singapore and other underdeveloped countries, rather a call of hope that they might accelerate their coming to enlightenment.
Until such a day, third world "legal scholars" have no place in courses concerning human rights.
I wouldn't mind if she pounded me in the ass.
Interesting. However, this neither explains nor disproves her views.
We would find it "offensive" to say "ah-ha!" if we found out a homosexual had a homosexual parent, or the homosexual was molested as a child. (But there is a strong correlation there).
But it is okay to implicitly delegitimize Thio's views with a geneaology?
Interesting theory that the "most commented" list indicates reader interest. In a brief look back over the comment sections of the past few weeks, one notices a couple of things:
This thread about asians and gays does garner a high number of comments.
But, of course, correlation does not equal causation -- perhaps those threads are full of the same people commenting again and again, or off-topic comments (such as this one).
And it should be noted that "most commented" is only for the most recent week or two. Might demonstrate that the other posts recently were not interesting, etc.
And, finally, there is a long list of other threads that garnered high "comment" numbers that seem to produce a threat of gossip, sex, or job fear that does seem more interesting.
Here's a recent sampling:
Davis Polk's Website Makeover: Now With 100 Percent Way More Hotties! 233 comments
Best Excuse for an Extension, Ever 269 comments
Sarah Palin To Resign as Alaska Governor 266 comments
We Know Where the HLS 2L Worked This Summer 232 comments
A Stripped-Down Summer Associate Event at Cadwalader 280 comments
Breaking: SCOTUS Rules In Favor of New Haven Firefighters 413 comments
Open Thread: How Does Everyone Like Bar/Bri So Far? 295 comments
Stepford Secretary Responds to Above the Law 309 comments
I can't beleive they are wasting their time on gays when there are STILL left-handed people running around in Singapore. Those women can't prioritize.
TTThio pwned by the IT guy.
But more importantly, Lat, could you not find a picture of momma TThio showing a complete hand? That would help us understand the situation with baby TThio's manos grande.
I ditto the comments that this is useless and boring. Especially for those of us who do believe that "gay sex is evil". ENOUGH WITH THE THIO's!!
just because Lat's a f-g doesn't mean he has to recruit all his ATL minions in his crusade.
This entire story deserved one post at the most. What do we gain by this? Yes, her mom's a homophobe too!
The only things this serves is lending credence to her, otherwise wacky notion, that there is some "homosexual agenda" trying to silence her.
This entire story deserves a yawn. If you really want to help the cause, give some money to lambda legal, otherwise, this paints the "equality movement" as overly reactionary.
Seriously. Do you have nothing more interesting to report about? Nobody cares about this! I'm going to stop visiting this site if every single day the biggest articles are about this woman.
Lat, why do you say her whining disappointed you? It has allowed you to continue posting long winded drivel about her.
Lat, why do you say her whining disappointed you? It has allowed you to continue posting long winded drivel about her.
7-Agreed. NYU has a lot of gay students.
MILF
That trailer is so NOT hot. I don't see how someone could screw up asian lesbian chicks, but that trailer failed on the erotic scale. The tipster must be a closet wanker who needs to get out more.
Let's introduce Thio to the awesome power of the threesome
save the drama fo yo mama
28 - as Jack Sparrow would put it "Obviously you have never been to Singapore".
Its neither poverty-stricken nor ass backwards (or whatever iteration of that phrase was intended). The UN classifies it (I think) as a developed country - not the third world. It IS authoritarian - problem is that the political elite (from which social "class" (please don't attack me on this point - its too complicated to explain how class plays out in Singapore) I belong, and which I rejected), thinks that they "know better" to the point that everyone else just better shut up or face the consequences. The Thios come from that power elite - they don't really "get" that many (not most) men in Singapore do frequent prostitutes, have affairs, or second "wives", that there is a large gay population in Singapore, that many women (including hired help on work visas) are abused in Singapore (physically and mentally), or that the working classes and middle classes are not happy (but are told daily that they should be thankful for the wonderful leadership that they have).
Plus, they don't really get irony - case in point: the government in Singapore is cracking down on a social ill right now, eating on the subways. Popping candy in your mouth will result in an immediate $30 SGD (about $20 USD) fine for a first time offender. At the same time, the Ministry of Health just issued a public statement telling the citizens to "maintain a positive outlook on life".
#20
If I had hands that big I would sit on them until they were numb, then beat myself, cuz it would feel like someone else doing it
Why are Asian women so gorgeous?
I would beat that willy like he owe me money
At least report on other professors, too, who are criticizing the homosexual agenda. Prof. Thio is not the only, or the best, representative.
Prof. Lynn Wardle, for instance, is much more thoughtful and has written much more extensively and in a scholarly fashion on the subject.
Recent article on him:
http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=428
List of his many publications:
http://www.law.byu.edu/Law_School/Faculty_Profile?140
15 - Agreed
Too long. Didn't read. (and that goes for my 2nd and 3rd years of law school, too.)
@28, I pity your ignorance and your warped Western triumphalism. If you even knew a little about what you're talking about, you'd see that, on a GDP per capita basis, Singapore ranks as one of the top 10, if not top 5, wealthiest countries in the world. We even edge out the U.S. in the World Bank and CIA Factbook rankings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
Of course, this makes our government's anti-gay sex law look even more out of place. But the statistics suggest that the global distribution of civil-political rights does not track the so-called 'North-South' divide.
I can't WAIT for more posts about cousins, sisters, aunts, etc.
Because reading about some person's mom on this cite (when I didn't even care to read the original post) is soooo fascinating.
May this be a lesson to you all. Don't get on Lat's bad side, cuz, like Jason Bourne, he will find your ass and harass it, that's why they call him the ass harasser
These lame stories are only the most commented because they are *so* lame that at least 100 people felt compelled to comment just to say BOOOOOORING!
How can I tell immediately when Lat is the author? Oh, because it's good.
Singapore ranks very high in the list of lesbians with large hands named "Thio", gay haters, and spider lillies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_large_handed_lesbians_named_Thio
49,
You're missing the point. First off, I have been to Singapore and you fail. It is poverty stricken. While it is, per capita, one of the wealthiest nations (money divided by people), only like 1% of any people have wealth. This is like African countries. When I walked around Singapore, I saw a few very rich, and MANY poor and impoverished people.
Second, you do not understand the meaning of first world, second world, and third world. It has its origins post World war II and refers to alliances (west/europe, russia, and the rest...or, first, second, and third). Just because it happens to correlate strongly with financials, does not mean I was implying that sinagpore is a poor nation per GDP. It is not and I know this. It has however, third world by definition, and there is a large amount of poverty stemming from the few owning the riches of the country. Click here for a definition of First, Second, and Third world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
Beyond your mistake as to the definition of third world, and your mistake in implying that I was referring to GDP (i was not, i was referring to the rampant poverty in the country since only a few own the riches), the real issue is that SINGAPORE IS BASS-AKWARDS in its outlook to human rights. This is to be expected, just like any other country without the experiences the West has had. The second world isn't as enlightened either, though they are above the third world in their views towards human equality.
In sum: Singapore is poor, and lacks the experience the West has regarding human rights. I'm sorry it's elitist and hurts, but sometimes the truth does.
-28
What are the "dazzling" credentials you have in mind Lat? PhD programs are bullshit even in the UK, a Harvard LLM is a certificate of attendance and being a big deal in Singapore legal circles is about the same thing as being a big deal in Sioux Falls legal circles. Judged by their comments, the two women are inarticulate, irrational and angry. That there is a Pacific Rim version of Ann Coulter is hardly news. Why are you giving this story so much play? Is the older bimbo also your mother?
Hey Elie, this is what a post on a "Legal Tabloid" should look like.
Your overdone snark is played out.
I am pounding a twinky in the ass while i type this.
These lame stories are only the most commented because they are *so* lame that at least 100 people felt compelled to comment just to say BOOOOOORING!
Thio's Mom post to 500!
The mother is a public figure too - a former judge, law firm partner, etc.
Somebody's 15 minutes are up!
Check out this debate on same-sex marriage and the homosexual agenda: http://www.fed-soc.org/debates/dbtid.24/default.asp
Professors Wax and Nagel get absolutely destroyed on the merits by Professors Koppelman and Carpenter.
It's amazing that a "legal scholar" in one country can look just plain IGNORANT in another.
Lat rocks! :-)
30 FTW
This post is worthless without a picture of mother ttthio's hands
@55,
I will not disagree with you on my country's human rights record, which is abysmal (although it's paradise compared to many places in Africa and the Middle East).
Where you're mistaken is linking political authoritarianism to poverty or income inequality. Let's take another objective measure: Singapore's Gini coefficent according to the UN is 42.5, which is comparable to the U.S. (40.8). (Incidentally, both countries are not too far off from places like Kenya, Senegal and Sri Lanka.) So unless you're keen on classifying the U.S. as 'Third World', you should rethink your definition. Fact is, Singapore endorses U.S.-style capitalism, and implements it almost as well as you do, while still keeping a tight leash on First Amendment-type rights.
28, 55:
Chances are that you observed work-visa residents of Singapore, who are, as you put it, poor and impoverished. I don't disagree. Since they form a large portion of the population, you can hardly be faulted for your observation. Note, I am not condoning the employment arrangements - merely responding to your post.
However, the average Singaporean hardly falls into that category - even by Western standards, they fall solidly in the middle class economically.
Human rights-wise, I don't think we are disparate in views. I do think though, that the Singapore government has made significant steps in the last 20 years to inch closer to a more liberal society. They are not quite there yet - a lot harkens back to my comment (#20) regarding the power elite and inability to trust in the people.
Your definition of Third World is dated. From the same Wiki entry:
"This term when used today generally denotes countries that have not "developed" to the same levels as OECD countries, and which are thus in the process of "developing". "
Is the Western concept of human rights the correct one? Is Western liberal politics superior to authoritarian regimes. I have puzzled over this for the last 40 years and have no real answer (yes, I flip flop - one of the most liberalizing experiences coming to the West is that I am allowed to revisit, revise and rescind all of my opinions and views). I struggle each day to figure out what the limits of freedoms are and how to balance the competing interests of society at large and those of individuals.
I would not want ever to be a Supreme Court Justice. The burden would weigh too heavy on me.
20, 43.
These lame stories are only the most commented because they are *so* lame that at least 100 people felt compelled to comment just to say BOOOOOORING!
Okay. You get the joke. I'm not really going to repost this 500 times.
But 68, if you post it 500 times then...
47 WTF???
'Thoughtful and scholarly' writing on discrimination??? You must have burned the midnight oils reading Mein Kampf too, since it was such a compelling 'thoughtful and scholarly' read.
What is the point??? Do these bigots think their righteous speeches and indignation is going to eradicate homosexuality?
Let's face it, we gays are here to stay, aren't gonna change, so they might as well shut up. They truly need to build a bridge...and get over it!
28/55 -- I agree with you with regard to what is an avoided issue here. This is a difficult corner to be backed into when one is liberally-minded, since you're stuck between wanting to defend gay rights but also not be *explicitly* saying that one has better morals than others (goes against the whole "let me do what i want philosophy" + sounds like an argument that liberals find themesvles on the defense-side of quite frequently...;-D) (though to be fair, conservatives are also confused about "live and let live"...) (ugh, parties.)
All that said, I'm not sure I agree with your contention that the West has reached the best moral outcome through whatever trials and tribulations you refer to...unless time works differently in different parts of the world, all of the places you have mentioned have been around for a while and I don't know how you can stake a claim to the West's journey being further along. This is why it's nice to be able to play the G-d card--works like a joker in poker!
Just sayin'.
Note: I refrain from siding with either the Dr. or the gay rights position on this. My issue with you is on your morality arguments.
Three words:
Logical phallus ease.
That's what naturally results from having such giant hands.
Okay so anal is illegal in Singapore but what about scissoring? Would love to hear these gals pontificate about scissoring because no matter what, that speech would be inadvertently hot and won't involve straw analogies.
Enough with this story line!! Yeah, we get it, she's an evil gay hater. I completely disagree with her views, but I'm so done with reading about this woman on ATL.
Stop already!!
But 74, we haven't heard about her other relatives, each deserving their own individual post, and how they related to her asian evil gay bashing!
Ms. Thio is a DEEPLY offensive person. And so is her mother. The author ignores this and is more interested in her race being the same as his/hers and her credentials (as a state puppet) rather than the negative repercussions of her hate speech. Sophomoric journalism focusing on amateur interests. Two thumbs down.
28 is absolutely correct. The main point that's being ignored here is the imposition of American beliefs onto those of another country. A large majority of Americans don't agree with Thio's stance on homosexual sex. However, it would seem that a majority of those in Singapore do agree with her stance.
And, as other posters have pointed out, it's a little more debatable that homosexual sex is a fundamental right and on the same level as prevention of slavery, Jim Crow laws, hate crime violence, etc. Unless the police are raiding houses to arrest people for homosexual conduct, I'm not exactly seeing how people would get in trouble for private sexual conduct. Sexual behavior is / should be inherently in the private realm. So, although most of us might not approve of the restriction, does it have any practical effect, other than being a moral condemnation of homosexuals? Not really. And hopefully, Singapore will reach a point where they're beyond such legislation, but they're not there yet, and the level of fervent liberal protesting, scorn, ridicule isn't going to make them feel any more sympathetic / amenable to changing things.
Being Asian and a female gets you 2 affirmative action points, which provide job and promotion opportunities. Being a lawyer teaches you how to aggressively negotiate to realize those opportunities. Volunteering, additionally, to attack a different minority gets you the support of powerful (rich) people who are well placed to up any fortunes members of that minority must abandon if and when your attacks force them to retreat. All in all, an excellent business plan, a type of business plan that, in our world, succeeds, has always succeeded, and will always succeed.
78: Being Asian gets you no affirmative action points - if anything, it's tougher to advance and the standards are higher. Have you been in a cave for the last 20 years?
HA HA look at the job application form for any government agency. It may be you who is in the cave.
What did the American Psychiatric Association say 80 years ago on these topics?
Stirr no takers for giant manhand fisty? How about mum-daughter tag team giant manhand fisty wanky?
Anyone?
-Ri-ann & Su-mien
I don't care what you say about Lat, but I know personally, that he's a great guy who will always be there for you in the end (not "in your end").
70 - Your shouting down and trying to intimidate anyone who tries to reason about homosexual marriage makes you quite a bit more like a Nazi than anyone else around here.
It's eye-opening that, for some on this blog and elsewhere (and in politics generally), any attempt to make the argument that perhaps marriage should not be between two men or two women gets you called a segregationist or a nazi. the conversation must be ended at all costs, and those who disagree shamed into submission.
(of course, in the next minute, you're surely promoting moral relativism and multiculturalism despite their obvious contradiction with your own screeching moral absolutism.)
let's put aside whether your analogy is correct in principle. in practice, the segregationists grossly and cruelly oppressed tens of millions of american citizens (and, for good measure, lynched some of the men for accidentally looking at white women). the nazis KILLED 10 million innocents in concentration camps, and started a war that killed over 50 million total.
it's one of the worst insults to the victims of the segregationists and the nazis to use them in an analogy with those who only make arguments and pass measures against homosexual marriage but who otherwise do nothing against homosexuals.
some of those favoring homosexual marriage and those opposed to it would like to debate the issue with civility and even learn from each other as fellow citizens.
70: Nice, Godwin's Law FTW. And, we see how sophisticated the argument on the liberal side is.
Let me simplify it for those of you alleging liberal hypocrisy in shunting discordant views: liberals do not purport to tolerate intolerance.
86: We've gone over this before. Intolerance is SUBJECTIVE. Conservatives believe that liberals are being intolerant with respect to many things as well. And again, tolerance is respecting views you don't agree with. However, there doesn't seem to be much of an intersection between views you don't agree with and views that are nevertheless "tolerant," because you feel that you're such an enlightened liberal, that if a view were tolerant, you would support it. In other words, you're full of crap and trying to have it both ways between saying you're tolerant and still harshly rebuking any views you don't disagree with by arbitrarily characterizing them as intolerant.
79, it depends. Are asian women so overrepresented in law firm partnerships, relative to the profession overall, that a firm interested in diversity won't try to identify partner candidates who are asian women? Same for law professors. Ever notice how few Asian professors there are relative to the large number of asian law students at top schools? It's not because the 2 black professors the school hired took their spots.
88: Actually, if you look at the NALP stats, Asian men are the ones who are comparatively underrepresented. This goes for the top law schools as well where there are twice as many Asian women as Asian men. That's largely a consequence of the schools taking a disproportionate number of white men over white women and needing to balance things out by taking a disproportionate number of minority women over minority men. In other words, it's all a lame quota game, which is clear by looking at how ridiculously similar the race and gender compositions are each year.
87 - right on
(although i think tolerance is actually objective, just not based only on the progressive political persuasion - otherwise i agree fully)
87, I'll concede that liberals are intolerant to many things as well: e.g. the disdain many liberals have for Christianity. However, your assertion that intolerance is subjective is a BS cop out. I'm not gay, I don't go out of my way to hang out with people, and the idea of engaging in sexual activity with someone of the same sex is repugnant to me personally. But neither the presence of gay people, nor the knowledge of their sexual choices makes me want to stop them. That tolerance doesn't have to do with whether I agree or disagree with their lifestlye but is about letting people live a harmless lifestlye as they please.
91 - I think 87's point is not that tolerance itself is subjective per se, but that many liberals' version of it is. some liberals like to label as "intolerance" opinions that they merely disagree with rather than opinions that are beyond the pale of civilized discussion, while at the same time calling for "tolerance" for all their own opinions, whatever they may be.
i agree that there is an objective standard for tolerance - or at least a standard that is more objective than subjective - but it's not a standard that some liberals - at least the louder ones - seems to follow.
they use "tolerance" and "intolerance" to end debate rather than to civilize and further debate.
28 - I agree. The only real surprise is that NYU would invite a douchebag like Thio to teach.
92: That's a correct characterization of what I meant. Calling a point intolerant or a person bigoted, racist, homophobic has become a technique for liberals to stifle legitimate discussion and immediately jump to the conclusion that they've won the argument. The whole point of tolerance is co-exist and respect points of view and opinions that you don't personally agree with, and which you might actually find to be very unfounded.
At the extremes, I think there is an objective standard of tolerance and intolerance, and to be fair, I think that Thio's opinions get dangerously close to intolerance. However, the tipping point for me would be if she was advocating police raids into houses to stamp out homosexual sex, or something to that degree of ridiculousness. While I don't agree with her views, many in Singapore undoubtedly do, and many in America on the far right may as well.
Nothing is going to be accomplish by name-calling (you're intolerant, you're a bigot, etc.), and honestly, I think the better approach would be to have a civil classroom or in-person debate with someone like Thio where the inconsistencies in her arguments can be pointed out and discussed. That's more likely to get her to concede some points versus ranting and raving over the Internet or via e-mail about how categorically wrong she is, and how she's an awful, evil person for her beliefs, etc.
Who the hell cares what these twats think anyway? This whole story was barely worth one post, let alone five.
Giant manhand fisty fisty wanky wanky!!!
-Ri-ann & Su Mien
Huh. I guess hatred IS a family value!
FANGBANGERS! Li-Anne Thio and her mom are Fellowship of the Sun.
Here is the YouTube clip of Thio Su Mien getting shouted down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWNfkA-vVNo
99,
The video was cool!!
I didn't know that your mom was featured in 2 girls 1 cup!
don't you know that they are feminist mentor and junior feminist mentor.
can't imagine that she is going to give lecture on human rights.
if the guy (NYU Law Student)loses the job, what is she going to do.
she can just say , oh! i am so sorry to hear that .
what a BMW (big mouth woman)
don't you know that they are feminist mentor and junior feminist mentor.
can't imagine that she is going to give lecture on human rights.
if the guy (NYU Law Student)loses the job, what is she going to do.
she can just say , oh! i am so sorry to hear that .
what a BMW (big mouth woman)