There are licensed attorneys, and there are people with law degrees. A nice looking naked babe on a chair can have it any way she wants, up the ass or in the mouth, or through the front door. As yet, the state bar doesn't have jurisdition over sexual position or style.

Who the hell cares? Is she actually practicing law without a license? If so, she should be appropriately disciplined. If not, who gives a shit if she calls herself a lawyer or an attorney or the goddamn King of Spain?

I would LOVE to know what bearing ATL's poll has on Wurtzel's ability to practice law. Is the bar association waiting with bated breath to see what the poll says before it decides whether to discipline her? This is a really, really, REALLY dumb thing to keep harping on.

I'd be lying if I said I gave a rat's ass.

I don't get it. The ban on holding oneself out as an attorney when you're not licensed (and indeed, the system of licensing itself) is meant to protect clients and potential clients (predominantly laypersons).

To the extent there's a difference between the terms attorney and lawyer (I'm still not convinced there is), clients/potential clients certainly don't know/understand it.

Don't you remember that terrible blog "Stuff BigLaw Attorneys Like" - they had a whole crappy entry on why attorneys like using the word attorney instead of lawyer (implying there's no substantive difference).

. . . and every year some real stupid dumb ass idiots fail it, and if those stupid dumb ass idiots graduate from an ivy league school, then that individual is exponentially dumb. I think the title of her book is a misnomer. It should retitled: "Dumb Ass stupid BITCH" In praise of Dumb Ass Stupid Women.

I guess it takes more than a 160 LSAT to pass the bar - even Yale decides to admit you.

A JD recipient is a law school graduate, not a lawyer or an attorney. Ms. Wurtzel should just take the New Jersey bar (since she can't seem to conquer the simple NY bar) just to pass any bar and then she can call herself an attorney.

At least she's not practicing, Lat on the other hand calls himself a writer and .....

2 - That picture is almost 2 decades old. She still might be "Lawyer Hot", but don't get too excited.

ATL,

This is a very essential pole and I thank you for your diligence and extreme focus in your efforts to stop the unauthorized practice of law.

-A concerned lawyer.

You know you're a bitch when . . . you don't know the difference between and attorney and a lawyer

You can call yourself an ass clown for all the ABA cares. As long as you're not practicing law without a license, you're fine.

Almost 4:20!

I'm a rising 2L doing an externship in public interest and my working agreement calls me a student lawyer multiple times.

She should not be allowed to call herself a lawyer. It is misrepresentation. When you advertise, you don't state that you are allowed to practice in jurisdictions that you are not admitted to nor do you call yourself a CPA unless you pass the exam.

A reasonable person may believe that a person who calls themselves a lawyer is licensed and has the ability to practice law. Clearly, here she does not.

Therefore, FAIL.

But she is hot.

--16

4 - It has the same bearing as almost every poll on the internet. Believe it or not, Joe Girardi will not look to an espn.com poll to decide who will pitch in game 1 of the playoffs.

15 - My brother calls himself a wannabe lawyer, what is your point?

17 -

But she WAS hot.

There, fixed that for you.

16 = FAILed Professional Responsibility and the MPRE.

She wasn't advertising her services, dumbass. She's probably a better lawyer then you!

19 my point is that calling yourself a lawyer doesn't constitute a violation of any sort so long as you're not independently practicing law without supervision.

-15

18 - not the same. poor analogy.

joe girardi will not be managing in the playoffs. so there.

furthermore, if this bitch was black, she would be arrested for her false claims

21 -- I never said she was advertising. I said "when you advertise." The point was don't misrepresent yourself to be something you're not.

Also, she's been accused of plagiarizing (http://www.observer.com/node/32824) and now calling herself a lawyer before being admitted to a jurisdiction, so that probably doesn't look to good for character and fitness.

gawd what slow news day!

gawd what slow news day!

If you have not passed the bar, most firms, afaik, require you refer to yourself as a "law clerk".

"Practicing attorney" may be more accurate in that she is under apprenticeship ("practicing") at her law firm to be a lawyer while awaiting admission to the bar.

4:20!!!!

My thoughts on this matter:

1) If she stopped being such a bitch, she would have time to crack open a Barbri book

2) I can't decide if she's a punk ass bitch or a bitch ass punk

3) I guess that only thing Yale Law does for you is sharpen your bitch skills, which is probably a good thing in BigLaw

-Law Offices of Laverne S. Treadwell, II SECURED

Alot more brilliant people have passed it on the first try than failed it. Lots of ill prepared b\right people failed it on the first try, but took it as a lesson learned and passed on the 2nd try. I would never blindly call anyone an idiot and it speaks volumes as to her credibility and professionalism, namely the lack thereof, as to her defensive comments. If she ever does pass a bar exam (hint hint try Jersey) someone needs to make sure her comments and behavior are submitted to the committee that reviews character and fitness to determine if she has earned the privilege to be called a lawyer or attorney or member of the bar etc.

This has "good Samaritan liability" written all over it.

Back me up, Elie.

"attorney" and "lawyer" are synonymous. the only difference is the etymology. "attorney" has french roots. "lawyer" is english. this whole graduating law school makes you a "lawyer" is total crap. she knows it too, that little worm.

How can 30% of people think this is ok? I figure the only people who would vote that way are those that have graduated but not yet passed the bar... and if you are in that group shouldn't you be TAKING THE BAR RIGHT NOW.

30 = FAIL.

In NY it is explicitly illegal to hold oneself out as a "lawyer" or an "attorney." See NY Judiciary Law §478. No wonder Ms. Wurtzel failed the bar.

In NY it is explicitly illegal to call oneself out as a "lawyer" or an "attorney" without being duly admitted. See NY Judiciary Law §478. No wonder Ms. Wurtzel failed the bar.

If you call her LE Wertzel, rather than LA Wertzel, either: a) you are a bad typist; b) you are making a veiled and witty comment on her questionable gender ID; or c) you never studied French, Italian, Spanish, or even Latin, all of which put LA in front of their feminine nouns. (Or maybe you took all of them, and didn't pass any of them.)

Geez.

Lawyer = Yale JD in my dictionary

-Mayor McCheese

That would be like someone who graduates med school but is not licensed and then saying I am a doctor but I am not a [italics] doctor. Oh, BTW, sorry I prescribed the wrong medicine to you. If it stays erect for more than four hours, you should go to an emergency room.

As aforementioned, if someone can write a law blog without being a real lawyer........

I mean, really, what's the point? I'm not European. I don't plan on being European. So who gives a crap if they're socialists They could be fascist anarchists. It still doesn't change the fact that i don't own a car.

leave the poor girl alone. it's bad enough that she failed the bar as a Yale grad, and the public knows about it, now we have to torment her too? Can't a brother get a break around here?

I always figured if you graduate law school, you're a lawyer AND an attorney. When you pass the bar, you're a LICENSED lawyer/attorney.

45 - NOPE

Alright bear with me here. If I relied to my detriment on her representation that she was a lawyer, when she actually wasn't, do I have a claim? I vaguely remember Section something or other...

3 - hilarious and exactly right.

I'm pretty sure Ms. Wurtzel is making money hand over fists and could really care less what the uptight self-important lawyer fraternity thinks. The joke is on us.

Problem with that book cover is lack of nipple.

On one hand, I really shouldn't give a shit what she calls herself because the fact is, she failed the bar and she's not a "lawyer" or an "attorney" regardless of what she thinks. What pisses me off, though, is her disrespect for something she wants to be made a part of. Yeah, the profession sucks, and the general public certainly has many valid reasons to look down on us, but a lowly wanna-be prospect like her does not.

I'd like to tie her up in a wertzel. Did I say that?

A bigger deal to me is how she got to sit for the bar with all the skeletons in her closet.

Plagiarism, drug abuse, mental illness...

In NYC if you're famous and somebody "important" they'll bend the rules for you. See e.g. JFK Jr.

What a farce. prestige, my left eye.

Problem with that book cover is that it has spent too much time in Photoshop, cuz I just googled that girl and the only resemblance I see is the chair.

I photoshopped my self once to look like Lat. And I'm not even a woman!

Holy Shit !

I think all that cannabis I ate at 4:20 is starting to hit me.

Whoa...

If "attorney" only referred to a "licensed attorney," what's the point of using the term "licensed attorney" at all?

she resembles a young susan estrich

Amish lawyers are always referred to as as "attorneys" because "attorney" is a bastardization of two root terms.

The first is "ornery," meaning "mean-spirited and disagreeable."

The second is "att", meaning "to laugh at any one"; the second "t" is a vestigial organ of this term's first pronouncer, who had a stutter. The definition above applies to the term "at."

So, "attorney" means "to laugh at those who are mean spirited," which the Amish have been known to do.

What 6 said. Joe Shmo doesn't know the difference between "lawyer" and "attorney" (and I don't really think there is one) so no, she doesn't get to hold herself out as one.

Obviously she wants people to think it means something, otherwise she would just say "JD" at the end of her name. She wants to lend credence to her commentary by being able to pretend she is a lawyer when she is not.

Funny, my law degree doesn't say "lawyer", it says Juris Doctor. You are an idiot for thinking that a law degree makes you a lawyer, attornye, barrister (maybe) or anything else that assumes that you can practice law. How long do we have to discuss her lies?

Let's talk about the Venable partner who was fired from her $180k a MONTH court monitoring position for "improper contact" with Detroit's ex-mayor. Thank you.

I'm a member of guild for reason!

Why bother if people who spend well over $100,000 on the relevant education can use the same word that I can?

49: No, she's not making money "hand over fists" (at least as of two years ago) -- this was debunked in the last post:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/fashion/28wurtzel.html

Although Ms. Wurtzel received a $500,000 advance for her second book, “Bitch” (and half of that for “More, Now, Again”), she took out loans to pay for her education. Yale’s law school tuition this year is $43,750.

“I’m badly in debt,” she said. “It’s got to be in the six figures.”

Wurtzel is famous for writing a biography about being a bi-polar freakshow. Who cares what she calls herself? Admissions fail for Yale. Writing chapters about giving handjobs in a Lithium haze does not a legal writer make.

Check her firms wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boies,_Schiller_%26_Flexner

This is obviously an ad created by the firm itself. I wonder if they will fire Wurtzel for bringing this bad press upon them?

I bet PE would fire her, huh PE?

Why hasn't she been fired yet? No one fails the bar TWICE and is allowed to stay at a firm. Must not be such a b!tch afterall...

Apparently, she only got a 160 on her LSAT -- far below the average for Yale Law -- but was admitted to Yale anyway. So, I bet she's a poor test taker. According to wiki, she's failed the NY bar twice already.

I recommend Yolanda Young's book over Wurtzel's book any day.

Can she however hold herself out as a "Doctor"? M.D.s, and Ph.D.s do, so logically a Juris Doctor should be able to, as well.

Regardless of legal ethics, it is a lie to call yourself a lawyer or an attorney if you aren't allowed to practice. It is also dishonest to call yourself an "associate" at a law firm if you aren't a practicing lawyer/attorney.

68 = Yolanda Young

The "doctor" question is, I am told, a matter of state bar guidelines. I have been told that in California, for example, you cannot call yourself "doctor" based on a J.D. alone, arguably because it will cause confusion for clients who may mistake you for a somebody with skills above and beyond the JD.

I'd vote for an option that says "No, but I'm jealous she got through fame what I couldn't get through merit, so yes"

She's a doctor, but she's not a lawyer.

I agree with 60, she is seemingly misrepresenting herself for a reason. Whether it is to avoid embarrassment, bolster credibility, or simplify her current job description, who knows? But it is not a good idea for law grads to do this.

When you graduate from law school, you are a lawyer, so anyone with a J.D. is and always will be, a lawyer. When you are admitted to practice after passing a bar exam you are an attorney.

Here's the giant problem I have. Why do you people CARE? Is it threatening something about what you do? It's not like anyone actually thinks she's practicing law, right? That's what I thought. So stop acting so morally superior.

My god, people. Here it is in case you keep missing it and are fooled by the original post: THAT PIC IS **VERY** OLD!!! She hit the wall-hard. Not even lawyer-hot anymore, or even MILF-hot. More like 2-pitchers-and-a few-shots hot.

I don't think it is "unethical" but I do think it is "improper." The lawyer v. attorney distinction is weak. She is neither until she has passed the bar, and she knows it. My guess is she's just sheepish about having failed (once? twice?) already. She should own up to it and work harder to pass this time around.

That fool is like 45 years old, no wonder why she needs the money. When did she get paid her advance? like when she was 15 in the 1980s? Man, let the woman be. Stop blowing her cover, everyone needs to make a living you know?

So 76, if you are a JD but not licensed and someone asks if you are a lawyer and you say yes, and they then proceed to ask you to do something that could be defined as practicing law and you say "sorry can't help you I am not licensed", what do you think their response would be? They would say "I thought you said you were a fucking lawyer?!?!?"

Whatever. I'd nail her.

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Lawyer=learned in the law.

Attorney=licensed to practice.

Is it just me or is there no bio for her up on the Boies web site?

$100 says she becomes a drugged up street hooker (if she isn't already) and writes about life as an attorney turned hooker. Of course most of it will be fake, the attorney part at least.

Oh, and the people trying to distinguish between "lawyer" and "attorney" are BSing or perhaps Ms. W herself or her fans - this is entirely specious, no one distinguishes these terms, and by using either, you are representing yourself to have passed the bar and the moral character background check and to have been sworn in to adhere to the rules of professional conduct.

What a dumb fucking this bitch is!!!! Who does she think she's fooling? I hope she continues to fail.

OH YEAH LAT!

Keep referencing and linking to those old threads, I love remembering what a great site this used to be. Of course, the illiterate autoadmit trolls who have been commenting of late would probably not even recognize, let alone appreciate, the level of education apparent on the old ATL. What trash this site has become. >

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I think she should follow my precedent,
and call herself a doctor and a lawyer.

at the highest level of abstraction this is correct.

I think if you are waiting for bar results and working for a law firm you can call yourself a lawyer.

But a JD is not enough--I am lucky enough to call
myself a recovering lawyer--that D of the JD really
came in help!

Wait, Hillary Clinton fails the bar every year?

Any idea why she is not on their website?

Here her calls herself teh attorney:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123923304833103031.html

Elie never passed the NY bar. What does that mean?

Looks like the "c" word will get zapped. So don't use it.

Whether she should call herself a lawyer (she shouldn't) is a different question from whether it is against a jurisdiction's legal or ethical standards at least if in a social/non-business setting (I don't know, probably varies, whatever).

If one is admitted to practice law anywhere (attorney, barrister, solicitor, whatever) it's fair to call yourself a "lawyer" so long as it's not holding yourself out as practicing or fraudulent or otherwise running afoul of a jurisdiction's restrictions on the term.

If one has ego problems and wants to claim one is a lawyer (or doctor or has certain degrees or whatever) in social settings, so long as one is not seeking clients or otherwise running afoul of the law I can't see that as something the state should try to prohibit, it's not worth it.

I did an engineering degree before law school but never having become a licensed professional engineer, do not call myself an "engineer" - if relevant I say I have an engineering degree. Someone with a nursing degree but who is not an RN is not a "nurse". MDs are a bit more complicated because there's both the academic term "doctor" (whether it should be applied to MDs and JDs is another question...) and having been admitted to the practice of medicine.

I would note in closing (at last!) on a related note, that as I recall, there can also be restrictions on designating that one has a JD if one is not admitted to the practice of law in a jurisdiction...

In 2002, I graduated second to last (401/403) from UC Hastings.

She referred to herself as an attorney in the WSJ piece about the credit crisis, so her false distinction between lawyer and attorney is back-tracking, regardless of its merits.

She shouldn't be calling herself a lawyer or attorney anywhere, not in cocktail conversation, not over the phone to old friends, and most especially not in publications authored by her or in comments to journalists. Despite all the legal commentators who are coming to her defense, I find her comments deeply unethical -- there's a good reason she was never listed on Boies' website.

The bar exam may be a silly exercise that brilliant people sometimes flunk, but its passage is the signature requirement to enter the profession. She hasn't passed and she's not a lawyer. She knows all this, yet persists in calling herself something she's not.

She's not trying to GET CLIENTS by calling herself an attorney, so she hasn't run afoul of any ethics rules. "Holding yourself out" as an attorney means the purpose of your actions is to generate business. Nothing that she's written shows that she's trying to generate business. There's no evidence that she even has clients.

Shut up you whiny nerds.

This bitch is 41 years old and was "having too much fun" to study for the bar? Either she's a liar, and really is stupid, or she's a jackass, in needs to get her shit together and act her age.

I understand people's reluctance to accept her description of herself as a lawyer. What about those law students who graduate from law schools that have the diploma privilege? For instance, graduates from Wisconsin law schools do not have to pass the state bar exam if they take certain courses and earn high enough grades. Can they call themselves lawyers or attorneys? Can they give themselves those titles outside of the state? Is it the act of taking the bar and then passing it that makes you a lawyer or attorney?

101 - Yes they can. It's not about the exam. It's about satisfying whatever qualifications there are, including, e.g., the moral character investigation, and being sworn in and bound to the RPC. She has not been sworn in, and has not even qualified in any state to swear in (i.e., she has not otherwise satisfied the requirements), therefore she is not a lawyer.

101 - Idiot.

It's obvious that those still advocating for the lawyer/attorney distinction had to sit for two bar exams or have never taken it. Thank you, that is all.

The term "lawyer", to the minds of 99.9% of the population, means someone who currently "practices law."

Since she is unlicensed and cannot do so in any jurisdiction, she is not a "lawyer." She is, at best, a "law school graduate."

Hillary Clinton is not a "gifted" person you idiot.

I didn't realize there's a distinction between "lawyer" and "attorney." Rather, an ACTUAL distinction. One of the first things a lawyer (aka attorney) learns is to admit your mistake and learn from it. Please don't try to cover up a blatant mistake like this one.

Maybe she needs to get back on those pills.

Permalink is correct.

The passed-the-bar/hasn't-passed-the-bar distinction is complete bogus—just another of many faux etymologies that lawyers try to pass off to make themselves feel better when they don't know the answer to a linguistic question.

The only difference between lawyer and attorney is an etymological one.

“As the profession of the law became regularized during the thirteenth century, French replaced Latin as the primary language of legal expression. . . . Then, during the fifteenth century, law French was gradually replaced by law English. . . . The problem was: how can tradition be respected yet precision maintained when there are three languages competing for attention? . . . How does one choose between synonyms, or - even more difficult - between two words which seem to be synonymous, but which might have enough differential meaning to allow a lawyer one day to make an argument based on the difference?

“The solution, in many cases, was: don’t choose; use both.”

David Crystal, The Stories of English, p. 152.