Loyola Law School (L.A.) Blames Name Mistake For Drop In Rankings
This year’s U.S. News Law School Rankings saw Loyola Law School (L.A.) drop from #63 to #71. Despite the back-and-forth between Above the Law and Loyola Law dean Victor Gold, the drop had nothing to do with us.
Apparently, the drop didn’t have anything to do with any legitimate factor. Brian Leiter is on the case:
This really takes the cake for carelessness on the part of U.S. News. Loyola Law School in Los Angeles dropped from 63 to 71 in the overall U.S. News ranking this past spring, and for one primary reason: its reputation score among academics dropped from 2.6 to 2.3. But that kind of drop is extraordinary: the academic reputation scores move .1 in either direction all the time, without rhyme or reason, but only once in the last eight years did another school’s peer reputation score drop that much….So with only a 1 in 1,000 chance of this kind of movement, what else might explain the precipitous drop in academic reputation? Unfortunately, the explanation seems to be clear: U.S. News unilaterally changed the school’s name on the survey: from “Loyola Law School” to “Loyola Marymount University.” Loyola was the only school whose name was changed on last year’s survey.
This is the story that Dean Gold is going with too. More details after the jump.
Leiter reports that Loyola (L.A.) Dean Victor Gold is pushing this name change argument with his colleagues. Here is his email that is reprinted on Law School Reports:
While we are part of Loyola Marymount University, and proud of it, we have been known as Loyola Law School for 80 years. That name has been used in all our branding efforts. Most law school professors and deans know us by that name. We use that name consistently in an effort to avoid confusion with two other schools that have “Loyola” in their names. By changing what we are called on the survey ballot, the magazine may have confused some respondents.
If I may paraphrase Jack Nicholson: “Would somebody tell me what kind of world we live in where a name change results in a decline of eight places in the law school rankings? This town needs an enema.”
As always, prospective law students should think about mistakes like these before they put too much stock into the law school rankings. How far do you think Yale would drop if one year U.S. News called it “Yale Law School at New Haven”?
Why Did Loyola Law School Fall in US News? [Brian Leiter’s Law School Reports]
Earlier: Open Thread: 2010 U.S. News Law School Rankings (50 - 75)
Loyola OCI Follow-Up
(81) 
Comments
first
fifth
second
A3G dropped from the ranks of the US Attorneys Office once he switched his name to David Lat.
speaking of mistakes, is a law school dead anything like a law school dean?
UPenn/ PennState commenters enter stage left...
Seems a lot more likely Loyola2L's reign of terror has finally started to manifest itself in the law school rankings.
As an aside, law schools need to stop the false advertising and call themselves what they are. Loyola Marymount should call not itself Loyola Law School. UIPUI Law should not call itself Indiana University. These attempts to confuse third parties are dishonest and are rightfully met with disdain by the legal community.
NO MORE THAN 50 LAW SCHOOLS SHOULD EXIST. ABA, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE REGULATE AND PURGE THE PROFESSION OF THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TTTs.
USNEWS is the reason the law profession sucks and the general public hates attorneys.
New York Law School gains from such confusion. In the full-time rankings, when it is listed along with NYU and people can tell the difference, NYLS is ranked in the third tier. In the part-time rankings when it is listed but NYU is not, rankers mistake it for NYU and rank it something like #11 in the country.
It is hard to explain that discrepancy any other way.
Boston chicks fart all the time, thus the rumor that they smell. Its really not that hard of a concept.
Ok, but who gives a flying F if it is #63 or #71? I mean, really, does it make a difference to any employer? Should any student reasonably care?
Similar thing happened when Boston College changed its name to Boston University and when New York Law School was acquired by NYU.
Similar thing happened when Boston College changed its name to Boston University and when New York Law School was acquired by NYU.
One guess for how Latham will explain its unprecedented drop in the next Vault rankings.
How does Suffolk explain its fall to TTTTier 4 this year? Oh- wait- that's where they always sat
The dean could tenably argue that the school reasonably relied to its detriment on last year's rankings, this setting up a prima facie R90 claim.
I suppose that I should know the answer to this question, but is Loyola Law School, aka Loyola Marymount University School of Law, accredited by the American Bar Association?
This is not a concern for SMU
oh no. I was going to hire a bunch of Loyola kids this year, but now that they dropped from 63 to 71, I just...dont know if I can do it.
BigLaw hiring partner
I see Killirov is too afraid to show up these days.
Do Loyola chicks defecate everywhere like chicks from Boston do?
Which is better: Rutgers Camden or Newark?
Proving once and for all that the "reputation" raters don't know shit about what they're actually rating, and US News is an even bigger pile of shit for passing this off as reliable stats.
This is all a distraction. Erin Andrews is not.
Completely agree with 8. We have way too many people getting law degrees who are not qualified. Just because you spelled your name right on the LSAT and got into a TTTT law school does make you qualified to practice law.
This would never happen at Paul Hastings.
If I may paraphrase Elie Mystal: oink oink.
Didnt Hank g\Gathers play for Loyola Marymount? Now that was a great team.
I wnt to Loyola and I hve had a vry vry suckesful carer.
#8 - For that matter, the number of colleges and universities and MBA programs should also be regulated. There's far too many degree programs in this country and any yutz with a degree can water down the applicant pool. Take Elie for example.
23 - Depends. Would you rather be shot while having your car stolen or would you rather have your car stolen and then shot?
I plan to open up a new school in Chicago which I will name after the city there, I will probably call it "Chicago University Law School." Just to irk Mr. Leiter.
Any law school that isn't Harvard or Yale shouldn't exist. Actually, Harvard is number two, so that probably qualifies as a Tier Two Toilet and shouldn't exist either.
Thank god we have USNWR to help us decide who we are better than. Please step in ABA! Down with all the non-number one ranked law schools!!!
32, I would rather shoot someone and steal their car. so should I go to Loyola or Dook?
24=Brian Leiter
Should someone start posting as "Loyola Marymount 2L"?
Isn't there a Loyola in Chicago that is also slipping in the rankings?
I'm a Loyola Marymount Summer at Orrick. Should I be scared?
If you were a Yale summer at Orrick you should be scared. As a Loyola Marymount Summer, you should be at peace with your impending doom.
I'm not sure I understand the Dean's argument. He is saying "Loyola Law School" is not confusing with other law schools called "Loyola", but the more specific "Loyola Marymount" is?
The LSAT is the most important test in the history of the world. If you do bad on the LSAT but pass the bar, you definitely shouldn't be allowed to practice law. There is a scientifically proven correlation between an ability to do logic games quickly and good lawyers.
Amen number 26, you're the smartest. I wish there were more people as smart as you.
Hank Gathers was half white too. Just like Obama. I mean half black.
Seton Hall summer at Orrick = the new Loyola Marymount 2L
This is where US News ranking system breaks down. By the time you've hit the second tier all rankings should be reasonable. Loyola should only worry about its position relative to other similarly ranked schools in Southern California or maaayyyybbeee the west coast generally.
If they 63 -> 71 drops them behind some Midwest or East Coast schools, who cares?
Perhaps the only real confusion existed in all prior years before the surveyed individuals knew which Loyola they were ranking, which lead to an inflated ranking.
Now that the confusion has been clarified, Loyola Marymount has rightfully been demoted from "USELESS" (aka 63) to "EVEN MORE USELESS" (aka 71) in the rankings.
Loyola dominates the Los Angeles market. Accept it or not, the school churns out the city's top litigators. Not ranked in the T-14, but does that really matter when you're actually practicing law? If you're practicing shit law while claiming the status of your T-14, you're the exact type of person that I hate. Name only carries you so far.
45,
I hear you, but if you are the dean of a law school, I would imagine you would want improvement.
What's in a name? That which we call Loyola by any other name would smell as TTT.
42=Rising 2L at University of Phoenix
What is this Bo Kimble nonsense?
I want to know why the hell USNWR should care about Loyola's "branding efforts" anyway. If they are in fact part of Loyola Marymount, how is it irresponsible for USNWR to so state?
It's like how IUPUI calls itself "IU-Indy" (and then, as often as not, 'forgets' to mention the Indy part). You weren't fooling anyone anyway, just be honest.
Sue US NEWS!!!!! That would be a great lawsuit.
47,
talk about trying to make yourself feel better for sucking at life.
i thought loyola took a hit in the rankings because of their part-time program? the GW effect?
there is zero difference between 63 and 71
Guys used to do one handed free throws in commemoration of Hank Gathers and his losing battle with marfan Syndrome at my high school all the time and it was no big deal.
Just do what Brooklyn did and submit fraudulent stats. Rank preserved, end of case.
If Loyola 2L were to affect their academic reputation score, this is probably the year it would manifest itself.
The WCC is an awesome basketball conference . . . . oh wait, it sucks. Paul Westhead to 200 point basketball games!!!
SPEAKING OF LOYOLA, ANY TRUTH TO THE POST THAT THE LOYOLA CHICAGO PATENT FAIR ONLY HAS 40 EMPLOYERS
The WCC: LMU, Santa Clara, Pepperdine, Portland, USD, St. Mary's, USF, Gonzaga.
Reminds me of the Patriot League. Great small academic schools and kick a** in Divsion 1 sports.
The WCC: LMU, Santa Clara, Pepperdine, Portland, USD, St. Mary's, USF, Gonzaga.
Reminds me of the Patriot League. Great small academic schools and kick a** in Divsion 1 sports.
#63: go [pepperdine] waves (but not for law school)!!!
Just goes to show that the U.S. News rankings are flawed.
Just because a school's name changes it drops in the rankings.
It is amazing that BIG LAW (with all those "intelligent" lawyers) relies on such a flawed system to hire associates
I'm going to try to make a serious comment here. The problem is that the people filling out reputational surveys -- academics as well as judges and practitioners -- are being asked to score the reputations of 189 ABA-accredited U.S. law schools. What could one person possibly know about 189 law schools? For the most part, they know what the rankings and other historical reputational markers tell them, so that Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are all destined to be top five, but beyond that, how is a ranker supposed to differentiate between (say) Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa? (The answer is that last year's rankings drive this year's reputational scores, which is the classic "feedback loop.") And let's get realistic -- how much time do you think these people being surveyed spend filling out the survey? Given all of that, little wonder that NYLS gets an upward push from people who think they're NYU, IUPUI gets a bump from people who think they're Indiana-Bloomington (now Maurer), and so on. And what about Loyola -- is that Loyola-L.A. (Los Angeles), Loyola-LA (Louisiana), or Loyola-Chicago? Ah, hell, give 'em all "2"s. And what does it say about the quality of the data going into the survey that the people being surveyed are so ill-informed that they assigned reputational scores at all to a school (Loyola-Marymount/Loyola-L.A.) they obviously couldn't even identify? The bottom line is that the surveys ratify the permanence of the 35 schools in the top 25, moving them around a little every year so that the publisher can sell more magazines, but beyond that in the rankings they don't provide much of a quality differentiator. (Of course, two rankings spots will drive students to the higher-ranked school, and may make the difference between whether the BigLaw behemoths go on campus to interview there or not.) We all know the emperor has no clothes, but we keep on complimenting him on his fashion style.
66: simple solution to that problem, just eliminate every school below 50
shouldn't be too hard to keep track of 50 schools
and it's not like we have to few lawyers in this country
Yes to 67, et al. Let's take a page from the AMA.
66 = subtle Indiana-bloomington trolling
Simpler solution 66: Eliminate every school below number 1. Go Yale! Everything else is TTT and no one who goes to any of those schools deserves to be a lawyer.
RTFM people
26 and 67 geniuses. Totally agree. I can't believe no one has ever mentioned that before. However, I would go a step further. There should only be 5 law schools. They'll produce enough lawyers to fill all the legal positions in the U.S. There should never be more than a few hundred attorneys in the U.S. at one time.
How come only lawyers complain that there are too many members in their profession? I never hear doctors, teachers, or those in business complaining that their job field is overcrowded.
There are too many lawyers because old lawyers never retire. Seriously, go look up the firms in your local community. You'll see guys who graduated law school in the 1950s. If you are over 70 and still practicing, please retire.
Yeah the Same thing happened when people mistook Suffolk law for Bunkerhill Community College
73- Doctors don't complain as much because the AMA runs things much differently than the ABA. Teachers don't say there are too many teachers, they say there are not enough class rooms. And when there are too many businesses in a particular market, they go bankrupt. Simple.
@ 7 - there is no "UIPUI Law" (by which I believe you mean IUPUI), as there is no Purdue University law degree. The law school on the Indianapolis campus is simply "Indiana University School of Law - Indianapolis," or "IU - Indy."
Besides, Btown is now Maurer School of Law anyways. Where's the confusion?
You people are all so stupid. My friends and I all graduated from Loyola in 08 and we are all at big firms. Unlike the Harvards, and Yale students we actually pass the CA bar.
77, the sign in front of the building says IUPUI. The no-smoking sign says IUPUI. It's on the IUPUI campus. An IUPUI undergrad can swipe into the building with an IUPUI ID, but an IU law student with an IU ID cannot. The vending machines accept IUPUI declining-balance accounts (but not credit cards). You need an IUPUI parking pass to park there, and an IU pass will get you ticketed and/or towed. The "Indianapolis campus" is the IUPUI campus, hence the name IUPUI. And if Purdue did have a law school, it would be in West Lafayette, not downtown Indianapolis. Although in that case, IUPUI Law might start calling itself Purdue-Indy.
But yeah, here's hoping the Maurer name will stick and serve to alleviate the confusion in the future.
why is it not the T18
Leiter states little cange in top 18 since 70's
always SC, UCLA and probably Vanderbilt.
Plus if you live in LA why go anywhere else--unless
you are self-preening for academics
First, a few disclosures:
1. I'm an alum of Loyola Los Angeles/Marymount- whatever...
2. I'm a (relatively) successful tax lawyer, approximately 5 years out of law school (I've published several times over in my field in respectable journals, I have a job, etc.)
3. I'm a minority (Latino, Black, or Pacific Islander)
Here's my take:
Loyola (the one in Los Angeles) has never been, isn't now, and will never be a "top" law school. I define a top law school as those ranked between 1 and 10 in U.S. News. We can debate whether it should extend to 20, but, I'm of the opinion that, after 10 or so, schools are regional, and it really doesn't matter. Sue me.
Dean Gold is an idiot: it's always something with U.S. News...this time, it's the name, before that, the change to include part time LSAT/GPA stats, before that, the employment stats, before that, the methodology in general, boo hoo hoo.
Loyola, and every school ranked below 10 in U.S. News (especially private schools) would be best served by focusing on improving their regional standing (after all that's what really matters, because east coast firms aren't lining up to recruit at west coast schools outside the to 10 or so).
Thus, focus on reducing tuition pressures for students and enhancing your regional presence. And doesn't the word "Marymount" give more indication than "Loyola Law School" which could apply to any of the three.....?
Don't get me wrong - I love Loyola, got a great legal education there, and, as someone in a position to hire young attorneys, Loyola grads definitely enjoy a perception and a boost as grads that can hit the ground running, and excel past grads from competitor schools (UCLA, USC, San Diego).
However - let me give everyone here the advice I recently gave to a family member considering Southern California Law schools:
"If you are going to attend the following law schools at full tuition, you are either hopelessly naive, or you have a financial death wish:"
UCLA
USC
USD
LOYOLA, L.A.
All the other crappy schools.
If you get a full ride to any of the above (or maybe half ride to UCLA/USC/LOYOLA) OK, proceed at your own perill.
Otherwise - top 10 or keep your day job.
That's all I've got...