SECONDY!!!!

THIRDSTY!!!

I call last with Kash.

First time in the history of ATL has the same poster grabbed the first, second and third spots. Kudos 1-3, you truly have NOTHING better to do.

STATE Government lawyers are screwed (folks know this). FEDERAL employees however... we'll be fine.

STATE Government lawyers are screwed (folks know this). FEDERAL employees however... we'll be fine.

The attorneys sitting pretty and commenting on the downfall of biglaw most likely work for the fed. govt. and loving the GS scale.

- still smiling govt. attorney

FIRST to point out that govt employees get paid peanuts and do shit work. Enjoy your time in the sun losers, because it ain't coming for another decade...

Newark at night is more scary than this.

-Confident Seton Hall summer at Orrick

can't wait till the federal government starts laying people off. then the shit really has hit the fan.

where are your rebel friends now?

9 - FIRST to point out that you're wrong, at least for federal gov't lawyers.

Federal gov't lawyers are generally GS-12 or higher.

http://www.opm.gov/oca/09tables/pdf/DCB.pdf

No billable hours requirements, no 90 hour workweeks... seems a fair trade-off to me.

Any more questions?

9 - Check out the GS pay schedule and look at the numbers by 14 and 15... We don't make as much as the private sector, but considering I haven't worked a weekend in months and get home at a decent hour every night we do very, very well. Many of us get loan repayment as well, which figures into all the juicy government bennies (TSP, pension, vesting).

As for the work being shit....lulz.... Let's just say that as a Government lawyer you don't spend your first 5 years doing doc review.

Enjoy your $73K salary 13, while a first year gets paid $165K (not including bonus). Yeah, those six figure loans will pay themselves!

Thank god I live and work in Houston.

15 - The same first year who will be paying back those loans with their $0 layoff salary?

And you don't start at Step 1 even starting as a GS-12 (certain agencies start higher than 12), but I'm not about to explain gov't payscales to you.

I lied, and even government jobs died.

I'm Barack Obama?

Latham NY laid off half the first year class. This move followed their no layoffs promise.

10 of the 2008 grads had been hired by Latham as 3Ls.

did he die???

Latham NY laid off half the first year class. This move followed their no layoffs promise.

10 of the 2008 grads had been hired by Latham as 3Ls.

Govt lawyers = lawyers who weren't good enough to get into Biglaw. 'Nuff said.

If you're still in law school it is time to evaluate options. The legal industry is undergoing transformational change of the highest magnitude. You have to ask yourself the question, do I really relish the idea of being a practicing commercial lawyer someday? Am I content to most likely be a future staff lawyer and not a true associate on partner track? What else can I use my law degree to do for a living? Is it too late to quit law school and switch gears to earning a MBA or master's degree in something else?

What happened Arizona? You didn't get the Obama stimulus money? Perhaps, next time, you will be smart and vote for Obama; he's the only one who can save us now! Yeah right.

What a good time to freeze raises and institute work hour requirements to increase the efficiency of government lawyers.

Good luck.

24 = douche extraordinaire!

15 -- actually, they will. The feds offer a pretty generous loan repayment plan, so that a large chunk of that loan would go away.
http://www.opm.gov/oca/PAY/StudentLoan/

15 -- actually, they will. The feds offer a pretty generous loan repayment plan, so that a large chunk of that loan would go away.
http://www.opm.gov/oca/PAY/StudentLoan/

Elie why do you consistently feel the need to write about insignificant crap? Arizona is one of fifty states. It has a deficit. States often have deficits and lay off people. Congratulations on stating the obvious. Who knows, maybe Mississippi will fire an employee next and you can write about that! Idiot...

What is so wondrous about getting into BigLaw anymore?? I'm in BigLaw and it isn't remotely all that it is cracked up to being. Partner track is becoming a very exclusive fraternity of young lawyers. I'm in my 4th year and on a lot of days I'm still a borderline document clerk. So where is this going to get me someday? Law school pedigree and BigLaw employment? Be very, very careful what you wish for.

22- a slight correction:

Govt lawyers = lawyers who were doing govt work to burnish their resumes for eventual return to Biglaw / lobbying work on K Street / run for political office.

Dumbass.

With Joe Biden's keen intellect and private sector experience, we'll be out of the woods in no time.

22 - So by your logic, all of the thousands of laid off Biglaw associates are what? Not good enough to stay in Biglaw?

I currently work for the federal government and many of my colleagues are former BigLaw associates. They have never been happier and would never go back. And, no, they didn't go into government because they couldn't hack it as a BigLaw slave.

This is all McCain's fault.

30 - bored govt lawyer.

22 is an idiot on many levels, and unfortunately, I don't have the time to go into each one.

But for all of you loser law students/young and about-to-be-laid-off-associates who think that all government lawyers are inferior to biglaw associates, let me ask you this. Who would rather have represent you in a lawsuit involving, for example, securities fraud:

(a) a fifth year associate at a big law firm; or
(b) an attorney who has spent the first five years of his/her career trying cases for the SEC?

One would hope that the answer would be fairly obvious. Further, this is my way of saying that you biglaw associates just aren't as important as you might think. In fact, as a former big law associate, I honestly believe that associates' sense of self entitlement has played a large (albeit, not the largest) role in many of the fiscal problems most firms are experiencing.

And before the rest of you start going crazy, this comment is directed at 22, for being an idiot. I realize not all big law associates are this ignorant.

22 -- ever heard of the Washington revolving door?
Take a good look at the bios of many Biglaw partners in DC, particularly in regulatory practices, anti-trust, trade, energy, etc. You will see many of them tout their gov't tenure as a huge asset to their clients.

^ to #31.

oh 37...dont flatter yourself by thinking that your comment will make the rest of us "go crazy."

You're not that inspiring. In fact, nobody gives a shit.

this would never happen at Paul Hastings.

39 would have gone crazy but-for 37's last two sentences.

In-house counsel: government hours, private practice pay.

37 - Roxana

37 - Roxana

22 - Also Roxana

Welcome to the suck government lawyers.

Incredible how defensive these supposedly brilliant government lawyers are.

Saying that all "government lawyers" are attorneys that can't get into biglaw is as specious as saying that all Amlaw 200 firms have the same type of work and pay the same salaries/bonuses. Government attorney jobs in D.C. at places like the DOJ, SEC, Treasury, FTC, Capitol Hill are really competitive and difficult to obtain. And the attorneys at these places have top notch pedigrees and clerkships. Like top biglaw firms, there are also definitely elite government attorney jobs, and lumping them all together is asinine.

State government has never been "safe." You're confusing state gov with the fed gov, Elie.

Look at the resumes of the top private sector litigators. ALL started in gov’t. Either as DAs, PDs, JAGs, AUSAs, whatever. Why? Because only the government gives you quality work AND training. If you start off in Big Law, you are just a billing slave. You’ll know nothing in 3 years. If you start off in small law, you’ll get thrown in the lion’s den with no training. You may survive, but you’ll never learn the “correct” way to do things and you’ll need years of remedial training later in your career.

You don’t have to be a gov’t attorney for life, but you’re a fool if you don’t start off that way if you can.

Barack Obama lied, Steve Jobs died.

50 = government lawyer with big dreams but posting on ATL with nothing better to do.

You are 99.9% correct 50, but I think you may have forgotten Willie Gary.

The ship be sinking...

The government attorneys are generally those with good grades who have a strong desire to go into a particular type of law and actually want to be lawyers. The biglaw attorneys are generally those with really good grades, who have no other asset than membership on law review. Many of them come into school looking to get into public interest but fear the rejection they might receive from others if they don't pursue the more "prestigious" corporate positions. Kudos to the government lawyers pursuing what they love. Obviously this doesn't apply to the biglaw attorneys who really want to be in biglaw, wherever they may be.

Another completely unsourced article courtesy of moron Elie. Perhaps he hasn't heard about the massive layoffs at the NJ AG's office, the Mass AG's office or the NYC office of Corporate Counsel.

It should be noted that in "government speak" that when someone says they are eliminating "29 positions" that doesn't mean they are firing that many people. "Positions" tend to be open place holders that they have in their budget that they haven't filled, or were planning to fill. When you eliminate a "position" that does mean your budget goes down and you don't get to hire that person you really may need, but it doesn't mean someone is in a bread line.

It might be good to actual see how many "people" were let go, rather than "positions"

Ditto 56, the Philly DA's office rescinded all the offers they had made to the class of 2009, I'm sure there are many more examples.

In fact NYC Corporation Counsel in partnering with BIGLAW rejects and deferred incoming associates to provide unpaid internships. NJ AG is doing the same thing with experienced attorneys. Perhaps if Elie spent as much time researching what he writes instead of cutting and pasting and eating saturated fats he wouldnt have needed those "plus factos" on his college and law school applications.

The elite government agencies like DOJ, IRS, FTC, SEC, etc. are easily as competitive as Big Law. In fact, given the small size of their honors/entry programs, it is much easier to break into a V25 firm than these programs. The openings are simply much fewer. Government does tend to higher from lower ranked schools, however.

Federal government work is great. I'm only a few years out of law school/clerkship and I have had regular court appearances, a small handful of trials, and a dozen appellate arguments. As for money, it's not biglaw, but in a secondary market, it's nearly as good as a large regional firm associate. With loan assistance (from school and government), I can afford a comfortable lifestyle. And a 2000 square foot wife.

60: Surely you realize that "hire" is spelled. "hire" not "higher". Don't you?

partners at quinn prance around and make fun of Biglaw lawyers that have been fired during the economic recession at the time. it is no big deal.

quinn stud

62 - you correcting me, that's unpossible.

Why so much anger from the people's servants? Ignore the 5-6 trolls. No one working in a firm has missed the fact that people coming in from government have great experience and skills and are a major threat. People leaving to go to the federal government are rarely gnashing their teeth and how terrible it is. The money is not there, but you adjust, and you reap the deep psychological benefits of knowing you can plan for your weekends. After a few years in BigLaw, I'm really beginning to rue how much of my time at prestigious firms has been spent doing clerical nonsense that is totally unmarketable outside the firm.

I'm graduating from a top school (H or Y), doing a clerkship next year, and considering applying to the FDIC honors program instead of a top NYC firm. My school will cover all of my loans (essentially) if I do it. I'm interested in banking and finance stuff, so it seems like it could be interesting. Anyone know anything firsthand about it, think it's a great or a horrible idea, or have anything to say about it?
I hear about classmates going to DOJ honors and the like, but never the FDIC.

66 I think FDIC is a great move. Bair is very well respected so working their under her would be a feather in your cap in whatever you do. Moreover, I expect that regulation will be consolidated folding the OCC and OTS into the FDIC.

66: Sounds like a nice plan to me. DOJ is great if you want to litigate (a.k.a., engage in tedious and often pointless pissing matches), but if you want to do banking and finance stuff, you're not going to find many firms hiring in that area nowadays, so FDIC is a great place to apply. IIRC, they're outside the GS pay scale, so they probably pay a little better than DOJ, et al., too.

(I'm not FDIC, but I do audit FDIC. They've got a lot of interesting stuff going on right now.)

12 Lawyers, and 17 staff members were laid off...this is a big deal. The end is neigh

Isn't it amazing how insecure lawyers are? Lawyers that didn't graduate in the top of their class spend the rest of their lives telling people how they really WANTED to do government/public interest/ non-profit work and they just LOVE the work-life balance. The few that did graduate in the top of their class spend the rest of their lives telling people that their Big Law job makes them happy and that everyone else is mentally inferior.

Perhaps all lawyers, whether they work for the government or big law firms, are dickheads.

42,

...only until there is a merger or acquisition, and then start sweating if you stay on.

News flash -- Government jobs, though more secure than the private sector, are not 100% guaranteed in a terrible economy.

Really?

99% of government lawyers either didn't get offers from Big law or just couldn't hack it. There is no shame in that but please don't spend your days posting on a legal blog that focuses almost exclusively on Big law and try to spin it otherwise.

The government will always attract risk averse second raters. Most of them, it's true, will have less stressful lives and more free time than their private sector colleagues.

But in every field, including law, the people who rise to the top and make a difference are those who take risks in the private sector.

That doesn't necessarily mean a Big Law firm. It could mean a privately controlled public interest firm, a small or even solo practice. But it does mean something other than putting in your 9-5 suckling at the taxpayer's tit.

Don't believe me. Come up with a quick list of the greatest lawyers of the last century. Name one career government lawyer that could plausibly make that list.

Government lawyers -- I'm sorry that you lacked the ambition, intelligence or work ethic to make it in a free market. But please, your Schadenfreude is unseemly. You may have your moment in the son when the economy is terrible and risk taking people suffer the consequences of risk. But in the long run those risk-takers will leave you so far behind they'll forget you even existed.

Do not equate State government with federal government. There is a world of difference between a Federal prosecutor and the public defender or some random assistant county prosecutor. Moreover, even an SEC attorney position has serious value a few years out. Thos guys actually have experience outside redlining documents and hanging out at Chelsea Market waiting for the printer at 3 AM.

74 - at least two Justices on the current Supreme Court never worked at a private law firm practice. John Davis, of a little firm called Davis Polk & Wardwell, spent much of his career as a government lawyer, before gaining enough fame to become a name partner at that firm.

"But in every field, including law, the people who rise to the top and make a difference are those who take risks in the private sector."

Really? You mean all the attorneys working for the Solicitor's office, DOJ, and other govt agencies don't make much of a difference? Who knew.

"Don't believe me. Come up with a quick list of the greatest lawyers of the last century. Name one career government lawyer that could plausibly make that list."

Umm, Frank Easterbrook -- worked in the Solicitor's Office until his judicial appointment.

"Government lawyers -- I'm sorry that you lacked the ambition, intelligence or work ethic to make it in a free market. But please, your Schadenfreude is unseemly. You may have your moment in the son when the economy is terrible and risk taking people suffer the consequences of risk. But in the long run those risk-takers will leave you so far behind they'll forget you even existed."

Sorry but a successful legal career does not require a life in the private sector. There are many public servants who are both quite intelligent and have advanced the law through their hard work.

a 2L writes...

74 - Your comment is rather thoughtless, ignorant, and far too general. You called all those who work for the government "rise averse second raters." That means you aren't just talking about "career" government lawyers, but any of those who work in government at any point during their careers. You can probably spit off the private attorneys like F. Lee Bailey because they handle high-profile and well-publicized cases.

However, you forget those who made a reputation for themselves in government: Harvey Pitt, perhaps the most well-known securities lawyer alive built his reputation at the SEC; Louis Freeh, former US Attorney for the Southern District and former FBI Director who oversaw the most massive organized crime investigation up to that point in history.

Additionally you compare one narrow sector (government) with every single form of private practice including a solo practice and the large firm. Aside from bankruptcy and criminal defense, very few lawyers have earned international recognition as great lawyers through billable hours. Idiot.

(Note: The AmLaw list of the 100 most influential lawyers clearly does not count, since they only cover private law firms like ATL)

#74 - The Southern District of New York alone can prove your entire argument wrong. An appointment as US Attorney for the SDNY has been the launching pad for more successful legal careers than you can imagine. Most of the people make it there through clerkships, government employment, politics, or criminal work on the government side. There is no private law firm which even compares in this manner.

#74 - The Southern District of New York alone can prove your entire argument wrong. An appointment as US Attorney for the SDNY has been the launching pad for more successful legal careers than you can imagine. Most of the people make it there through clerkships, government employment, politics, or criminal work on the government side. There is no private law firm which even compares in this manner.

au contraire 80, Wachtell launched Lat and supposedly Debevoise launched (or ejected) one Elie "I'll take mine with extra cheese' Mystal.

as sly would say: let me take you hire!

It's my understanding that the AZ AG's Office had a larger layoff already last winter. No one is safe when 20-30% of the state's budget vanishes and most of remainder is encumbered by voter initiatives.

If you are or want to be a litigator (or a regulatory lawyer), gov't work seems to be a great training ground. But transactional work is a different story.

It depends a lot on what department of the Fed Govenment you look at in terms of the quality of lawyers. In many agencies, the attorney ranks are made up mostly of blacks who flunked the bar exam or simply couldn't hack it in a real firm, as in had trouble reading and writing. The Fed Gov't is the utlimate dumping ground for affirmative action flunkies.

This chat about what's more or less prestiges is pretty useless right now; what does one - a midlevel with BigLaw experience - do to get a decent job -- ie something besides chasing ambulances where one might learn something???

85 - Really? Have you ever been to a government agency? For that matter, have you ever been to a prom that wasn't segregated? Shithead.

85 is exaggerating for the most part, but it is common knowledge that these days no white male will get in the SDNY US Atty's office unless he has some serious connections - most lawyers they hire are minorities. How does one explain that when minorities are a small percentage law school graduates and a tiny portion of qualified law school graduates?
Can anyone honestly argue that this is not so?

I know a few lawyers who enjoy being a lawyer. Most are either in governrment or spent time in government. Lawyers in private practice who spent time in government usually have a sense of perspective.

74s comment is a joke. The number of lawyers in private practice who "rise to the top" and "make a difference" is negligible. A couple of guys at WLRK, Skadden and 10 other firms. And 95% of the partners at those firms are drones and robots, not the sort of people who make a difference.

85 and 88, in my fed agency, I would say racial minorities make up about 5-10% of the lawyers.

I don't understand why people don't simply state on their AA disclosures that theyr are minorities. What, is the prospective employer or educational institution actually going to ask you to your face whether you are really "Hispanic" or "African American"?

LOL...this whole thread is ridiculous. The best job around right now is an appointment as an AUSA (SDNY, DDC, etc.), as an attorney with DOJ, FTC, SEC or an appointment as an attorney on Capitol Hill. My federal agency (HHS) has some really interesting things going on right now. Within HHS, if you work for CDC, FDA, or NIH, you are going to get specialized training that is very marketable in the private sector (firms or in-house--legal or business side), should you choose to leave government service.
Of course the states are laying off. Most states are running high deficits, and we've been hearing about the state layoffs for many months now.

I used to be in BIGLAW and In-house for many years, and I can't say enough about federal government service. I was brought in at a high 14, we get bonuses (4 and 5 figures), and we get a raise every year plus a local COLA. In addition, I don't work weekends, and I'm out no later than 6pm daily. 6:30pm is late. Everybody is collegial in my agency's office. The attorneys are from BIGLAW (for the most part), and they attended top undergrad schools and went to T-14s. There are minority attorneys, but there aren't a whole lot of them.

We can participate in Flexiplace (work from home 1 day a week), and we have great benefits TSP, pension, loan repayment, and credit hours/comp time. In addition, the feds are changing some of their benefit and pay structures to make them competitive with the private (corporate) sector.

Not to mention, you get great experience. So, don't knock federal government service. State service, on the other hand, depends on the particular office. A Manhattan ADA could probably stomp all over a SDNY AUSA.

Law students and newer attorneys would be insane these days not to consider the federal government. Not all of them will get in, though.

I'm five years out in Chicago with the fed govt and I can't believe my good fortune. Our agency is not on the GS scale and I'm not quite at $150k - obviously not on a par with BigLaw money but more than I need; and particularly decent when calculated on a per hour basis. The work in our agency is fantastic - tons of independence with excellent support...perfect if you enjoy securities law. The benefits are strong [mass transit commuting costs reimbursed, student loans paid for up to $10k/yr, teleworking up to 4 days/wk, 5% retirement plan match, 13 sick days/yr, 4wks vacation after 3yrs, casual attire except when meeting the public, 4x10 work schedule allows a 3day weekend every week, etc.] and one very rarely works a weekend. We recently posted a vacancy and the remarkably high number of candidates with stellar credentials really was quite something to behold. Good luck to everyone in this tough environment.

AZ AG's had larger round of layoffs last winter. This is just a lesser follow-up.