Notes from the Breadline: Workingman’s Blues
Ed. note: Welcome to the latest installment of “Notes from the Breadline,” a column by a laid-off lawyer in New York. Prior columns are collected here. You can reach Roxana St. Thomas by email (at roxanastthomas@gmail.com), follow her on Twitter, or find her on Facebook.
Searching for a job is often described as a marathon. “It’s not a sprint,” people will tell you knowingly, often adding that it “might take a few months.” When my own job search began, I heard this pearl of wisdom from countless recruiters, all of whom encouraged me to “be patient.” “Don’t worry,” they told me. “Something will come up.”
Several months on, I have determined that the marathon analogy may be a bit of an understatement. Sure: Giovanna found a job in short order, but for many of us, looking for work is more like an Iron Man, the Iditarod, a long ocean voyage, or a marathon followed by an extended push to the summit of a high peak. Carrying a heavy pack. I can imagine the captain’s log for such a journey. “Day 180,” it would read. “Morale is low. Rations are scarce. The cats are restless; I fear that a mutiny is not far off.”
Not long ago, I stopped by Lat’s office for a chat about this dismal state of affairs. “This isn’t getting any easier,” I said. “Does anyone find a job these days?”
“Think of it as a marathon, Roxana,” Lat said, stroking his chin wisely. He offered me a cup of coffee, which flows from a garden-sized fountain topped with a naked, burbling Cupid standing on one foot, in his office. Then he paused to consider my question. A moment later, it became clear to me that he could not think of anyone who had, in fact, found a job. “I get the picture,” I said glumly.
But a few days later, Lat delivered some encouraging news: he knew someone who had found a job. “It took a while,” he said of his acquaintance, “but he did it.” In fact, Lat explained, it had taken the acquaintance a remarkably long time to find work. Even more remarkable, however, was how long the man’s job search had taken, despite his impeccable credentials and extensive network of well-connected lawyers.
I decided to talk to the lucky fellow about his experience in - and getting out of - the breadline. Perhaps, I thought, he could inspire us, provide some insight, or (at the very least) make us feel better about our collective inability to find gainful employment. A few days later, I reached out to our new friend, who I’ll call “Max.” (He asked that his real name not be used.)
Read about Max’s job search, after the jump.
Max — who is now partner in the Washington, D.C. office of a national firm — told me that, notwithstanding ubiquitous indicia of economic doom, he was surprised to find himself in the breadline for several months earlier this year. Why, I wondered aloud, did prolonged unemployment catch him unprepared? Ostensibly, he seemed no different than countless other attorneys who have moved, suddenly and seamlessly, from secure jobs to the abyss of career uncertainty: he went to an exclusive private high school, attended an excellent college, and graduated from a top tier law school. For eight years, he worked at well-regarded law firms in the South, where he enjoyed a comfortable level of success. In the past, a pedigree like Max’s might have provided a modicum of job security. But, given the state of our profession, was his joblessness really so surprising?
Well, Max told me, he had been under the impression that he had an ace in the hole. For the last three years of the Bush administration, he explained, he had occupied a high-level position in a federal agency. He was at the top of his field, and had accumulated a level of expertise that few people could claim. “I just never thought it would be so hard,” he told me. “I was intimately familiar with a really significant body of law, in a hot practice area. I had been a decision-maker; I had drafted regulations. I thought that would count for more.” Instead, Max encountered one closed door after another. But that wasn’t the worst of it.
Our conversation about Max’s job search went something like this.
Max: First of all, for what it’s worth, the thing that struck me even more than the dearth of opportunity was the absolute lack of professionalism by the folks involved in the process. I had a headhunter, who came highly recommended, go completely AWOL after we discussed the firms to which he should send my info. Multiple firms simply failed to return my calls and e-mails — even after face-to-face meetings. Here I was, a high-level official from a federal agency, looking for employment in one of the only practice areas that was largely unaffected by the economy. I was talking to practice group heads at major national law firms, and I couldn’t get them to update me on the status of our discussions. I can’t imagine what other people must be going through.
Roxana St. Thomas: How did your job search begin?
Max: Well, I started looking in January. At first, I tried to cast a wide net - hitting up everyone I knew in the D.C. area who I could contact through my law school alumni network, reaching out to friends and colleagues, and working with a headhunter. But, as I mentioned, the headhunter was horrendous. I don’t know how else to describe it. After our initial conversation, when we talked about firms to which I should submit, I basically never heard from him again. I kept trying to follow up, with no success.
RST: What else did you do? Give me some examples.
Max: Oh, everything. I worked alumni contacts. I reached out through a listserv for lawyers that my high school maintains. I used Indeed.com. I went through my Chambers guide and picked out firms that had the kind of practice group I was looking for. But it was really disheartening. Sometimes, I would send emails to contacts at various firms, and the next day I’d see an article about how the same firms were laying off fifty people.
RST: What came of all the emails and calls?
Max: Usually, nothing came of it. I started discussions with a few firms, but for the most part, there was a complete, overwhelming lack of responsiveness from everyone involved. When you’re out of work, you spend the entire day checking email and looking for some glimmer of information about what’s going on. But even after I started meeting with people - and I’m talking about significant people and high-level meetings - I would often get five emails deep before anyone would return my calls. I guess it doesn’t sound like a lot, but I was shocked by the silence.
RST: Did you tell everyone you knew that you were looking for work?
Max: Initially, I reached out to specific people and contacts, but I didn’t announce it to everyone.
RST: Why not?
Max: It was something I was reluctant to do, probably because there was some level of shame about the whole situation. I’ve never been unemployed before, and I guess I thought of unemployment as something that you don’t share with other people. I think that, at first, there’s a transition period, during which you believe that it’s temporary. But then, when it drags on, you have to convince yourself that you’re still unemployed because of the economy. It took me a long time to get to the point where I could appreciate that it wasn’t my fault.
RST: How long did it take?
Max: It was a good month and half before I got to that point, and then I sent out a blast email announcing that I was looking.
RST: Was it liberating to finally send that email?
Max: Definitely; it was very freeing. At first, you don’t want people to know that you’re having trouble; you don’t want them to judge you. But what I’ve come to realize is that people want to help. After you send out a mass email in which you lay out your situation, it’s easier to start the conversation about your job search.
RST: What were those conversations like?
Max: A lot of times, they were totally off the wall. For example, I know someone who has a close friend who is in human resources at one of the big firms. I ended up talking to the HR person, but it was clear that there was nothing there, and nothing she could do for me. But you never know; sometimes people who can’t really help you know about another opportunity, or they can direct you to someone else.
RST: It sounds like your feelings about full disclosure changed pretty radically.
Max: Oh, absolutely. I think it’s really important to be open about the fact that you’re looking. I also think that you need to keep reminding the people you know that you’re on the market. [Max laughs.] Actually, I ended up using Facebook status updates to do that. I believe that most people want to help you, but that they don’t know how unless you tell them.
RST: Were you able to do that? I’m not sure I would be able to explain how someone could help me find a job.
Max: Well, for example, you can use Facebook to ask a large number of people whether they know anyone at a particular firm. But you’d also be surprised by how many people have good ideas that they would never think to mention but for your reminder. Someone might have a helpful suggestion about networking, or they might tell you about a resource, like the ACC [Association of Corporate Counsel] website, which has job listings.
RST: What else did you do to remind people that you were looking for work?
Max: I sent a lot of follow-up emails, but I studiously avoided follow-ups that reflected a chain of unanswered prior messages. Instead, I’d try to find a ‘hook’ of some kind - an article, a recent decision or development, something I could mention in a note. I think it’s important to be really “up” about the fact that you’re unemployed; you want to stay in people’s minds, but you need to find a way to do that, and to convey that you’re still looking, without bringing them down. You have to look for something that might be of interest to them; find a way to connect that isn’t focused on the fact that you haven’t heard from them (if that’s the case), and which conveys something of value — not just that you’re still unemployed.
RST: So, what kinds of jobs did you apply for in the course of your search?
Max: I applied for every kind of job you can imagine: in-house jobs, jobs from Indeed.com, jobs at big firms, small firms, boutiques, in general practice, in government relations … at one point, my wife and I even talked about “checking out,” finding someplace near a beach, working wherever we could, and living a different life. When you leave government, there’s an expectation that you’ll go to Big Law, but we weren’t wedded to that idea.
RST: Did you think about moving? I hear it’s a great option.
Max: I applied for jobs all over the country - Dallas, Chicago, Atlanta, New York, Nashville, to name a few places. The job market is bleak no matter where you go.
RST: What was your financial situation like? Were you prepared to be out of work for a while?
Max: It was pretty brutal. I did not expect to be out of work for more than six weeks; it simply never occurred to me that it would take as long as it did. And the firms I was talking to basically confirmed my incorrect view of things; they told me that they would have a decision in two to three weeks. When I accepted the position I have now, four or five months into my search, those firms still hadn’t reached a decision.
RST: Did you go on a lot of interviews?
Max: Not really. Maybe ten or eleven over four months, and some of those were callbacks.
RST: What were they like?
Max: I had good interviews, and I remember being very excited because I thought they had gone well. Everyplace I interviewed wanted to “stay in touch,” but at the end of the day they couldn’t predict well enough what their finances would be like, so things stalled. It was a sobering look at the economic condition of big law firms. On one hand, firms are very reluctant to bring in a partner who doesn’t have a book of business. On the other hand, I had a great background and, for lack of a better description, a significant Rolodex. The amazing thing was that, if you broke down the compensation I was looking for in terms of the maximum exposure to each partner, it was a pretty miniscule amount of money - maybe $1,500 apiece. Hypothetically, how risk averse does a firm have to be in order to stop taking risks altogether? But that was the level of fiscal discipline I saw everywhere.
RST: So, how did you get the job you have now?
Max: My “in,” so to speak, was someone who had worked at the same federal agency. That connection facilitated my conversations with the firm I ended up joining.
RST: Tell me about the emotional trajectory of your job search. What was that like?
Max: The whole process was infuriating. I remember thinking, “I sent you four emails. You can’t respond to any of them?” It was pretty horrible. But, you know, I had a lot of time to think, and what I finally realized is that lawyers are inherently wussies. Sometimes they have no news because no one has made a decision, but no one wants to tell you. When I formally withdrew from consideration at some of these firms, they told me that they were still “hoping that something would break.” How would I have known that? Since no one had bothered to respond to my repeated inquiries, I had assumed we were done. They don’t want to talk to you, though, because they’re afraid you’re going to force them to say yes or no … and they just don’t know.
RST: Were you ever afraid that, if you kept pushing, you would force them to say no because they weren’t able to say yes?
Max: Yes. You can’t help but wonder how many times you can email someone before they say no just to get you to stop. And what can you do? I would rather have no answer than have them answer no just because they need more time.
RST: How often did you check your e-mail?
Max: Hard to say, but probably once every 5-10 minutes when I wasn’t out and about. After being BlackBerry free for about a month (if that), I broke down and bought an iPhone because I couldn’t stand being unplugged from my e-mail.
RST: What else did you do during the time you were searching for work? Did it feel as though you could enjoy things you might otherwise not have time for, or was it too stressful to feel like “time off”?
Max: I have a four-year-old daughter and an 8-month-old son. I got to spend more time with them than ever would have been possible had I been working, and it was great to have that bonding time. We took the kids to Disneyland - BlackBerry-free! I played more golf than I ever have before. I worked out constantly — sometimes twice a day. It was great, but the uncertainty of what the future held made it stressful. Even when you are “sure” that you have done everything you can to find a job, your mind convinces you that you should be doing more. Particularly when you are about to tee off.
RST: Overall, was your experience humbling?
Max: Maybe a little bit humbling. In the months leading up to the end of the Administration, I can’t even remember how many people told me to call them when I was done, that I would be “set” once I got back in the private sector, that I would be fighting off the suitors for my talent (and credentials). I guess a little part of me believed that, and the layoff certainly brought me back down to earth.
RST: Do you think it changed your perspective?
Max: I’ve always been a hard worker, so I’m not sure that my perspective has changed in that regard, but I’m certainly more convinced than ever that hard work is necessary to succeed. To the extent that the experience “changed” anything, I would say that it made me more aware of the fact that, despite how much I might have going on, the questions or issues that other people bring to my attention might very well be the most important thing on their plate. Understanding this fact is helpful, particularly when the issue in question is not remotely the most important thing on my plate. I guess what I’m saying is: when I called or e-mailed about the status of my employment discussions, there was nothing more important in my life. The folks I was contacting had class actions, trials, depositions, etc. going on, so my call/e-mail was not necessarily significant to them. It would have been nice to get an acknowledgement that my request was important to me. I know that I will never ignore another job inquiry again.
RST: How did you keep your spirits up during the search?
Max: It’s hard not to keep your spirits up when you are spending basically every waking hour with your awesome kids … and they are awesome.
RST: Finally, how do you like your new job?
Max: I love it. The people are great, and it’s a perfect fit.
___________________________________________________________________________
Roxana St. Thomas is a laid-off lawyer living in New York. You can reach her by email (at roxanastthomas@gmail.com), follow her on Twitter, or find her on Facebook.




Comments
Comments hidden for your protection. Show them anyway!
Legalize cannabis today!
first by my own petard!
darn.
- 2
1 to 3: Roxana
Umm...idiots, there is NO BREADLINE in most of America.
Breadlines went out years ago.
If you less than a couple of thousand dollars in your account, you can APPLY for foodstamps.
Otherwise America is a libertarian "paradise" aka a neoslave colony
Who gives a shit.
This is a piece of shit.
5 & 6: Roxana
How is this helpful? He is a partner (indicates some business I assume) and had enough $$$ to take his kids on a vacation. What about the unemployed folks who are just trying to stretch severance as far as possible? Are they finding jobs?
This article is like saying "Look here, unemployed first and second years! This experienced person was unemployed and became a partner, so I guess there is hope for you finding a job too!"
What's is this guy's real name? I want to network with him.
#7 = sneaky Roxana
I'm glad the folks from administration that gave us this economy are doing so well. Tell me more about their fancy jobs and relaxing vacations! Do they have homes with stainless steel appliances and marble countertops as well? What private schools do thier kids attend?
9 -- Agreed. This piece is absolutely irrelevant to 99% of the people who read this blog.
Max = Alberto Gonzales
#14 = funny.
Another negative: Bet Max's wife is sick of him at this point.
Summon the Roxana trolls...
Roxana banna fo fanna....
16: Roxana
The one thing Max is right about - headhunters suck. They are worthless, especially in this economy because nobody is willing to pay them. Firms aren't paying headhunters anymore, and the unemployed masses won't waste their precious blood money (read: severance) to have someone putz around all day on the job boards for them.
You're better off pounding the streets yourself. As the black man who recommended I buy a slurpee to beat the summer heat said, "It's what I did!"
Roxana = Roxana
Burning Cross?
The guy wasn't fungible. The lesson for others is don't be fungible.
Maybe Roxana can use her free time to take an undergraduate writing class.
Actually this posting is very enlightening for those of us still unemployed. It shows us that even the folks with exceptional credentials and experience are struggling to find jobs. A lot of being unemployed is dealing with insecurities and failure. You second-guess your achievements and your viability as an attorney. While it sucks that the really good candidates are struggling longer than expected, I feel like the "it's the economy" reason is still applicable to my job situation.
I am enjoying myself right now. Perhaps a bit of lunch afterward.
this post makes me think that we are all FUCKED
Roxana, I hate your name. It sucks. Change it. Seriously, do it. Do it.
That wasn't his chin LaTTT was stroking...
Max:
I enjoyed reading your interview with Roxana. I'm glad things worked out for you and that you found a job after leaving my administration. I'm not working now either, but who knows what the future holds. I do know that we were good for the country. Good luck to you.
And if you're ever in Dallas, stop by SMU
and visit my Presidential Library. I plan
on having some WMDs from Iraq on display,
along with Osama's death mask. Oh yeah, I'll
have a waterboard there as well.
Laura sends her best.
Dubya
STOP POSTING THIS BORING GARBAGE!!! WONT EVER READ IT!!!!
27: Roxana
This is very insightful and encouraging. Thanx.
No.
No.
No.
NO, THIS DAMN COLUMN CANNOT STILL BE ON. IT IS LOOOOOOOOOOOONG AND BOOOOOOOOOORING.
24 = Roxana
32 = Roxana
And it's some kind of revalation to this dingleberry that headhunters are useless?
Legal Headhunter = Washout from Catbert School of Evil HR Practice.
They're all useless
Roxana,
This is probably your best post yet! You go girl!
Shabeefa, from your old neighborhood.
14 beat me to the joke.
It is depressing that something this well-written and informative is met with 30+ comments of utter garbage.
Anyway, Roxana and Max, please know that there are some of us out here reading who DO appreciate this excellent interview.
39 = Roxana
#39 - You are an absolute disgrace to your family, friends and society at large. You should be ashamed of yourself. It is human garbage like you that is killing this nation.
The title, "Workingman's Blues," doesn't appear to match the post. Perhaps it should be called "Jobhunter's Blues" since that is the topic of the interview. In addition, "Jobhunter's Blues" is gender neutral.
Even though Max's situation doesn't apply to most of us (including myself, an out of work 2nd year corporate lawyer), the parts about how he felt about the whole process, the steps he took, were interesting and encouraging to me. Thanks for posting this Roxana.
43 = Roxana
1-41 (make that 42): Roxana
Latham NY laid off more than half the first year class. Latham NY laid off 45% of associates this year.
Latham NY laid off all first years who failed the bar except for a bar failing partner's son (hereinafter "Latham NY BFPS").
Everyone except me = Roxana
Max sounds like an entitled d-bag. I find it difficult to feel sorry for a guy that played tons of golf while "on the breadline."
Roxana = a ox ran.
The cold, hard reality is that this recession is teaching businesses that they don't need lawyers nearly as much as they thought they did. Guys like Max who have great experience and expertise in a specialized area of law might still be useful, but document pushers like Roxanna and most of you BigLaw associates aren't. Trained monkeys could do the job of most BigLaw associates, and they work cheaper.
Max is right about lawyers being wussies. You wussies who went to law school because you were afraid of Wall Street and too stupid for Med School, you wussies who went to BigLaw because you were afraid to stand up in court, you wussies who accepted mindless document productions because you were afraid to leave the safe confines of your big firm - you're all farked now. You were never worth a sheet, but now the clients know it.
Good luck!
farked?
haha.
51 = Roxana
You farking iceholes...you sands of beaches...
Johnny Dangerously lives!
Isn't the best way to hide someone's real name, to use it and then to claim thats not their name. For example, if you're interviewing someone named "John", just call him John and claim thats not his real name. I mean who's going to guess. At least I know that the person who you inteviewed isn't named Max.
47 = Roxana
24 - Please. You have a lot more trouble than the economy if you're deluded enough to believe that an anonymous story on a legal gossip site is sufficient basis for believing that the reason for your unemployment is not more personal than the market.
guys, those comments are not all me
-Roxana
Uh oh.
Reference to "trained monkeys"=L4L?
57 - Not Roxana; hence, all other posts = Roxana
57 = roxana
59 = Roxana
logical black hole
Roxana = military grade sleeping supplement
62,
yean, cuz the military just cant seem to get to sleep on their own
62 = 63 = lame = roxana
60 & 61 = Roxana
Max = Roxana
job found: ATL writer
I just implemented a logic bomb, packaged it with a trojan horse, and sneaked in through the back door.
This just in: max has just been fired for communicating with ATL.
we're all screwed. He was the best of us.
Roxana equals cheezberger and pretzels
Roxana, I am your father!
Came on here to say exactly what 9 and 13 said. While well written, and perhaps applicable to those at the senior associate level who were laid off, for us junior associates out there (i.e. 1st and 2nd years) this only serves to show that if it took someone with partner worthy credentials half a year to find a job, it will take us...how long? More than a year? Maybe never? I usually love this column but this week, not so much.
This guys says he didn't have a book of business but had a big Rolodex...who gives a shit about contacts if you don't get business from them? Sounds like an asshole.
Partner Emeritus is NOT Roxana
70 = Roxana
logical supernova
Max probably also had some help from mommy and daddy while he was on the "breadline." Do you know any public high schools that maintain a listserv for lawyer alumni?
Max's Daddy = Roxana
"it had taken the acquaintance a remarkably long time to find work. Even more remarkable, however, was how long the man's job search had taken"
I'm sorry. This is just crappy writing.
Roxana, I am your son!
I came on here to say exactly what 69 said.
79 = 69
78 = 76 = 74
logical big bang
all this Roxana is making me eighty-firsty
(81 = epic fail. there, I said it.)
all this Roxana is making me eighty-firsty
(81 = epic fail. there, I said it.)
Dear Max --
Repeatedly saying "I don't know" and "I don't recall" to a Congressional commitee inquiry into possible legal violations doesn't qualify you for partnership in a BigLaw firm.
And coattailing onto someone else more politically connected for a job doesn't mean that you're qualified.
You're just a political hack in a city full of hacks.
81 = 83 = Roxana = Elie = Lat = Kash
everything you know has been a lie
Roxana = 82's secretary
The interview had some very helpful advice, even if it was discouraging in some respects, especially for less senior folks.
Ignore the anonymous jerks.
Max = anonymous jerk
1 to 44.2 million - Roxana
Comments are being eaten without any indication that they are being eaten. Weak sauce, bitch.
breadline comments to 100!!
-Roxana
this roxana is making me ninty-firsty
I love how at the end of the interview, Max wants to talk about his kids and Roxana's like "I dont give a sheet about your farking kids, tell us about your job."
I bet he was thrilled to answer HER questions.
to echo another's comment...this just confirms that junior corporate attorneys are completely f'ed.
my best idea is to open up a 7-11 franchise. christ, this is just depressing.
I love how at the end of the interview, Max wants to talk about his kids and Roxana's like "I dont give a sheet about your farking kids, tell us about your job."
I bet he was thrilled to answer HER questions.
ooooh boy, I'm finally gonna do it!!
100 comments baby! I only have to post like 5 more pretending not to be me
-Roxana
tall guy in white shirt in the breadline = Roxana
Max: "It was pretty brutal. I did not expect to be out of work for more than six weeks; it simply never occurred to me that it would take as long as it did"
Really? How did you respond?
"After being BlackBerry free for about a month (if that), I broke down and bought an iPhone."
"We took the kids to Disneyland - BlackBerry-free! I played more golf than I ever have before. I worked out constantly -- sometimes twice a day."
Brutal.
I think the brutal comment was a freudian slip re: having to spend time with his wife and kids.
I finally reached 100 - Roxana
Roxanna is a Cute Under-appreciated Neat Typist
I feel very Hundred-firsty! - Roxana
Another fantastic post, Roxana.
Again, I ask why so many people read an entire 2000 word blog with disdain? If you have that kind of time at your desk, your firm is circling the drain. Maybe that's where your angst comes from.
102= Max
102 = Roxana = Max = her own father = her own son.
Awesomeness.
admittedly, my firm is circling the drain. but that's not where my angst comes from.
you see, I live in Canada. AND, my wife is kind of a whore.
105's wife =
nevermind. that would be mean.
Lawyers are wussies. I can't believe the treatment this guy received.
The article never addresses the very relevant question whether Max was only seeking a partnership position or would he have settled for an associate or special counsel job. An associate position would likely have been easily obtainable if he is as qualified as claimed.
108= Max's mistress
106 = Roxana
105 - Wow, sorry about the Canada thing. Um, what's your wife's cell phone #? Does she have a website?
Looking back on the five months of my job search, my greatest regret is that I accomplishing nothing else during that period. I'd always thought that if I had a number of free months, I'd write a book, do major home repairs or accomplish other goals that require some intensive time blocks. Instead, the day-to-day drudgery of following up leads and believing "we should know in a week or so" made me think that I wouldn't have time to do anything else meaningful. Lesson learned.
I would have been on 8 interviews since May where I have not heard anything from the people I interviewed with. I can't wait until I get a job so I can write those sons of bitches how disgusting it is to not acknowledge follow up emails/calls from people who took the time to come in and interview for your miserable firm. Some interviews were out of state and I had to incur expenses to go meet with them.
Furthermore, recruiters are the most useless pathetic waste of money ever and I am glad the economy is acknowledging them as such.
Whats that word that rhymes with chigger?
Naked, burbling Cupid standing on one foot, in Lat's office = Elie
113 - Maybe you're not hearing back for a reason? If your interviews are as rife with bitterness as this post it is no wonder you're at the back of the line.
Max could not have been that worried about finances if he played golf, worked out constantly, bought a new iphone, and took a family vacation at disney. Give us someone who actually endured the ravages of poverty!
All of us = Roxana
#113 - Bigger?
"Here I was, a high-level official from a federal agency, looking for employment in one of the only practice areas that was largely unaffected by the economy"
So what does his employability have to do with yours?
108 - my sentiments exactly. He was probably holding out for a partner-level position. It does not seem like he had any sense of urgency to get a job for financial reasons if he was able to take a vacation and buy an iPhone. Not impressed that he says he played a lot of golf, then says he spent "every waking minute" with his kids. So much for his character for truthfulness.
I'd like to know how long it would have taken him to land a job as an associate.
102 - don't worry, we don't read the whole thing. Not even close.
93 = loser
i will see you all next tuesday!
- megyn kellys landing strip
@ 114 - abortion?
@ 114 - abortion?
Guys - that's why God created credit cards. The dude probably spent the previous three years putting off vacations with the kids b/c of all the "too important" work going on. Maybe disney had a sale.
Don't worry, haters, I'm sure there were a few times of hanging around the house in underwear, blowing up at the wife for not having a job to support the family, and blowing up at the kids for whining about pokemon cards or some such, if that makes you feel better. The dude did it right by taking care of family and himself during uncertain times.
I second 122, who pwned the shit out of 102. Also, this is so fake I want to vomit. You can't hide forever, Mike (I assume this is "Roxana's" real name).
Finally 102 = Roxana
has anyone added roxana on facebook? can we confirm she is a real person?
102 = roxana
105 ftw.
you didn't ask the dude for a job?
I've been unemployed since November 2008 and still haven't found a job. i've interviewed several times, including 3rd to 4th round interviews and three different major corporations.
Moreover, I was told to start looking in March 2008 so I've technically been looking for a job for a year and a half. I have over 8 years experience at a major NYC law firm, albeit I attended a second tier school, where I graduated with honors and a published member of the Law Review.
This has been described to me by a person many times smarter than I as the worst job market in human memory.
God help all of us.
I never thought about it until now. Roxana St. Thomas = Lat. That's how that interview was set up. Do you really think if Roxana existed that Lat would've let that hot tranny mess talk to someone like Max? Remember Lat has assumed a female persona before (A3G).
Everyone should know that Roxana is a pen name. She/He/it simply does not exist.
This would never happen at Widener.
134 - Roxana
132, you're right, it's terrible. However, I found a job within 3 months of being told to look (and had a couple of offers). I am also 8 years out but went to a Top-3 school. I don't think the school matters beyond getting your foot in the door a bit more easily. After you get the interview, you're on equal basis with anyone. In-house is hard at the best of times.
LOLzaroonies @ 100
132 and 137 - Practice areas? I'm in a small niche area (not corporate) where almost no one is hiring, and am having a hard time convincing people that I want to now be a commercial litigator, etc.
Also, 132, was your law firm kind enough to classify your termination as a layoff? Because I am about 3 weeks away from having to explain my "performance" termination and just don't know what to say.
It seems those on the breadline aren't geting laid enough. Then again, that's probably true for all lawyers.
It seems those on the breadline aren't geting laid enough. Then again, that's probably true for all lawyers.
137 - I'm a litigator.
Roxana = EPIC FAIL
"In the months leading up to the end of the Administration, I can't even remember how many people told me to call them when I was done, that I would be "set" once I got back in the private sector, that I would be fighting off the suitors for my talent (and credentials)."
How naive is this guy, really? The smart people got out BEFORE the administration ended... i.e., when they still had some leverage.
@139 - I am not sure why you need to advertise whether you were let go for performance reasons or otherwise. I think your best bet is to say, "I was let go along with "x" number of associates/"x" percentage of associates in [month, year].
Assuming that the number of people let go along with you was significant, or the percentage was significant (pick the better number) I think it will be clear that the issue was the economy, not you. If they drill down and ask whether the termination was based on performance, you should answer honestly, but don't be afraid to state that in years past your evaluations were stellar and based on the number of people let go you are skeptical of the performance rationale.
122, 128---I know you don't read the whole thing, Roxana uses b-i-g words that you probably have difficulty sounding out.
Hey Roxana, will you interview "Max" when he gets indicted by A.G. Holder?
A round of golf is what, $30 at a decent public course? If you play golf twice a week (a conservative estimate for someone who claims they played 'tons of golf'), you're spending $240 a month on golf. Forgive me if I don't feel any particular sympathy for a struggling unemployed lawyer who still manages to take vacations, play golf and buy an iPhone. Spend a few months deciding between food, medicine, and rent, and then let me know how things are "on the breadline."
Roxana=twat
"Max" is just like Alberto Gonzalez. Cripes, the former attorney general couldn't even get a law job. He is teaching Poli Sci at TEXAS TECH. That's in LUBBOCK.
All the bushie political hacks are severely damaged goods, and no one wants them. I would assume if you were a sub-cabinet level hack that you were not qualified for any job, other than being white, protestant ant-abortion, or a facsimile of those. Maxana is lucky anyone hired him, and the shithole that hired him is hoping that some political patronage comes their way. Put on your resume your activities for the Whig party, see if that helps.
"I wrote regulations" hahahahahahahaha
Back in high school we used to play rounds of golf with homeless people who were on the breadline, but still had brand new Nike golf clubs...it was no big deal.
- Frat Stud Wannabe
JT recommends that all unemployed NYC lawyers check out JT’s new “environmentally friendly” golf course in Tennessee, since Max’s secret to employment success was hitting the back-nine and heading out on vacations. JT knows that whipping out your 9-iron is a great way to get a job in this economy.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iW9fBrIuXZ4TWzQHpgkcYcz8snIQD99E89100
146 = roxana
122, 128 and 146 - Roxana
153 = Roxana
Infidels. I will turn you all into beasts of burden.
Recruiters and headhunters are glorified human traffickers. No different than the coyotes operating at the Arizona border or those people who get owned by Liam Neeson in "Taken."
137 - 132 here. Top 3 school did it. You may have gotten one of the jobs I interviewed for in fact. I was in a commercial finance/corporate which is quite dead and the firm was quite nice about the whole thing.
Now I have to explain away a shitty law school and 8 months of no work. Its quite dificult to obtain jobs which simply do not exist. There are, conservatively, 12 qualified candidates for every open position. Conservatively. glta,
First post I did not like. I want to know about Roxanne not some random SES from the Bush administration and his struggle to find a 200K plus job.
What the hell is with most of the people who post comments on here? Who cares if you don't like this column? Do you people have some form of OCD that requires you to post some negative comment about every story on this website?
159 = Roxana
132 - 137 here. I am a litigator, so I probably didn't get any of the jobs you applied for. I actually didn't get any of the inhouse jobs I applied for (it's pretty hard for a litigator to get one anyway) and wished for a while that I were a corporate attorney, there seemed to be more openings. I ended up at a firm.
161 - Roxana
Too breadline-y. Didn't read.
137/163--When exactly were you looking for a position, as there have not been corporate openings on the market since early 2008.
137/161--When exactly were you looking for a position, as there have not been corporate openings on the market since early 2008.
I um,er lied, and um, jobs, er, um, died.
RAHM! The teleprompter's not working!
Is this thing still on?
I disliked this column on many levels. So the guy worked for the prior Administration and is now so surprised about his prospects. Stupid. Give us a follow-up column in 3-6 months letting us know how he does.
137, 161, 164 and 165 - Roxana
Personally, I prefer the comments to this post
Agree with 48 and 72. Max sounds like a tool.
Has anyone here ever considered getting a job outside the law? Does anyone have any balls at all? You could start a small business. You could join the FBI. Take a risk, and stop waiting for law firm partners to feed you billables, otherwise you'll always be a tool.
24, 39, 43 - I agree completely with you. I'm a first-year lawyer looking for work, and have experienced many of the ups and downs that Max spoke about. I don't take joy in anyone's misfortune, but it is very comforting to know that others are going through the same thing. Great post and good luck to all of us.
I'm paddling along in 132's boat. I'm corporate and have been looking basically since April 2008. Top 5 school and all that other stuff nonexistent employers like. I actually had no idea at the time that I wasn't getting any offers in April/May '08 because firms were already tightening up and becoming more risk averse. It's only now that I'm starting to put the pieces together and seeing how this is so much more a reflection on my incredibly bad sense of timing than it is on my abilities. I guess that's bad enough: like sending out a gazillion resumes for my second big round of the search literally five days before Lehman went under.
I think there's an opening for a mid-level corporate associate in Riyadh. No joke, that's the only job relevant to me that I've seen in the past two weeks. I'm also looking for non-legal jobs but I haven't been able to get any of those, either.
The interesting thing is that, because I've been so desperate and looking everywhere for so long, and have been failing at the job hunt for a "remarkable" length of time (and in my case, that's actually true: Max's six months of searching seems like a flash in the pan to me), I seem to have come out on the other side of the hole and am getting a bit of my confidence and mojo back. It took hitting rock bottom to get here: about six months of feeling completely catatonic, sitting in dismal contract agency offices filling out forms, followed by about two months straight of nonstop screaming and bawling and cursing.
When you're going through something like this for long enough, it kind of starts to feel normal. I'm not saying that I've given up - far from it, I'm still looking all the time, sending out resumes for any listing that's anywhere remotely near the ballpark in terms of my experience. I'm saying that if I can handle the psychological stress of something this intense, and actually am able to laugh about it (sometimes), then there isn't much I'm not going to be able to handle in life. That's a pretty good feeling to have.
OK, that's my piece and it's out. Let the peanut gallery have at me: any spelling or grammatical errors in this post that are the reason I don't have a job and never will? Do I equal Roxana? Bring it.
173 = Roxana
173: how have you been able to support yourself for so long? i assume that you explored moving to many other cities.
175: I can honestly say that I have no clue whatsoever how I've managed this long. It amazes me on a daily basis. I do live in CA, so it's cheaper than living in NYC. There was the severance, still a bit left, then unemployment that I'm getting as of recently, and a whole lot of debt. I also have 1K in student loans and COBRA payments every month. But somehow I'm going to be ok for another seven or eight months.
If I STILL don't have a job by early next year, I'm going to cash out my very small 401(k), start selling everything I own on ebay and move in with my family. Or move to France and teach English.
And yes: I'm considering not only other cities but almost all other countries (I just could not bring myself to apply for a job in Saudi Arabia).
- 173
173 - I feel your pain, I really do. I have been searching for 6 months and feel like the biggest loser on the planet for not being able to find something. I'm in a major metro market (not NYC), but also am licensed in a state commonly mocked on this board - there are more openings in that state, but there are plenty of out-of-work lawyers already living there to fill them. It's definitely one of the worst things I've gone through in my life. I had always wanted to work for the feds anyway, and had actually started the application process for some of those jobs over a year before this happened. If I'm lucky enough ever to break in and beat out the multitudes of partners/counsel vying for the same jobs, I will quite happily sit there for the rest of my life, in order to avoid having this ever happen again.
Who would think to write this crap? Honestly.
"...but for many of us, looking for work is more like an Iron Man, the Iditarod, a long ocean voyage, or a marathon followed by an extended push to the summit of a high peak."
"an iron man, the Iditarod, a long ocean..., learn how to keep your articles consistent. A third grader would know better.
ocean...," ;)
177: the only reason I even go to the comments for this column (which I love and sometimes send to friends/family so they can kind of "get" what I'm going through) is to connect with the five or six normal people like you who actually have experiences to share and aren't here to mock a pretty serious and widespread situation.
If I can even remember that far back (jeeeeeez), the six month point is really grim. It's the point where you feel like you've tried everything, applied to every position imaginable....and still nothing. And to make matters worse, it's not like you can just stop trying and take that "funemployment" vacation from life they talked about on ATL. You actually have to pick yourself up and move forward somehow when there's nothing left to try. It really is a moment when freaking out and having a nervous breakdown is the only reasonable reaction. If all you feel like is a loser, you're in a lot better shape than I was.
Here's the thing: I really believe that trying this hard and having to go through this experience, which is not at all a reflection on your abilities or anything personal, is one of those things that's going to make you that much harder to beat down in the long run. And the weirdest thing is that the (still very few) calls I'm getting now are for top-notch in-house positions, places to which I submitted my resume a month or more ago (in one case I had submitted about four months back!). It's not like I have an offer yet, and my chances aren't great for any of the positions, but getting an interview is a lot better than radio silence - and it shows me that maybe I'm not going to have to just "settle" for a job. Maybe I'll be the one person out of 100 who gets hired for my dream job. Maybe.
I'm thinking: aim high. Send your resume to any and every place where a job there would help get you to your longterm goal. If there are practically no jobs anyway and you have to go through all the misery, then you might as well think big. You're just as likely to get a crap job as an amazing job right now; it's a lottery. So why not buy the ticket for the best job(s) you can?
Oh, and this is really cool: apparently a career is 30-40 years long. A year or two on hiatus or before you start doesn't matter much. (plus you're not really on hiatus when you're learning survival skills that no plush firm/company/school could ever impart)
I'd wish you luck, but you don't need it. I definitely do wish you the BEST job ever.
- 173
173/181 - Thank you, same to you! Honestly, it gives me hope to know that you are getting calls for interviews with your resume showing that you are no longer at your firm. I have nightmares about every employer throwing my resume in the trash once I can no longer write "x year through present" after my firm.
- 177
I would observe that a five-month job search for a partner-level position, especially in this economy, is really not a terribly long one.
To the commenters crying that the interview is "irrelevant:"
It is very relevant no matter what the experience of "Max." Why? Look how Max conducted his job search. Calling people. E-mailing firms he wanted to work with repeatedly. (Not just sending CVs to craigslist postings.) Meeting with friends and alumni. Broadcasting himself and casting a wide net. Active not passive.
182, when they ask why you're no longer employed, tell them you got laid off. You're in extremely good company. Everybody understands.
-Legal Recruiter
184 = Roxana
132 here.
Unfortunately, I have a mortgage to contend with for a home I purchased last year. Luckily, my spouse works but she earns less than $100K and I've been living off savings and unemployment for 8 months. My savings were once substantial. Once unemployment runs out end of year, if I do not find something in calendar year 2010, my life savings will be far less substantial.
I have applied to every federal agency in existence and every job even slightly resembling something I would do. I even applied for a job as a Jamba Juice Store Manager. I kid you not.
At this point, I'd gladly settle for a 65K per year job. Gladly. I feel like I a now a civilian anyway.
Former SEC Sachem Joins BigLaw
By Lynne Marek | The National Law Journal
Former U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Christopher Cox, who was also a Republican member of Congress for 17 years, will join Bingham McCutchen in September as a partner in the law firm's Orange County office in Costa Mesa, Calif., as the firm seeks to build its presence in the region.
Cox, 56, will be part of Bingham's corporate, mergers and acquisitions, and securities practice and its affiliated Bingham Consulting Group, giving the Boston-founded firm the benefit of his deep roots in the southern California area, Bingham said in a statement.
"He brings a high level of talent and relationships and very strong background as a lawyer," said Rick Welch, Bingham's managing partner in Los Angeles for the southern California region, which includes three firm offices.
Cox left the SEC, which oversees the securities industry, in January at the end of the Bush administration, amid Washington blame-trading over bank failures, the mortgage securities crisis and other financial debacles related to the economic downturn. He served in the chairman post about 3 1/2 years before being succeeded by the Obama administration's appointee, Mary Schapiro.
Cox came to the firm through his connections to former California Gov. Pete Wilson, Welch said in an interview. Wilson is of counsel to the firm's Los Angles office.
Bringing Cox to the Orange County office, where the firm has about 17 lawyers, also demonstrates the firm's commitment to the area at a time when some national firms are second-guessing their presence there, Welch said. The firm has five offices in California, with three in southern California, also including Los Angeles and Santa Monica offices.
Bingham earlier this month announced its intent to merge on Aug. 1 with the tax specialty firm McKee Nelson, creating a combined firm of about 1,100 lawyers and a larger presence in Washington and New York.
"The firm's considerable presence in Southern California and Washington, DC, as well as its strength in the telecommunications, biotechnology, and homeland security areas align well with my past experience," Cox said in a statement from the firm.
Cox is returning to the state that sent him to Congress after he moved to California from Washington. Prior to being elected to Congress in 1988, he was senior associate counsel to President Ronald Reagan from 1986 to 1988.
He was an attorney at Latham & Watkins from 1978 to 1986, specializing in venture capital and corporate finance and leading the firm's corporate department in Orange County. He was also a member of the firm's national management.
As a member of the House of Representatives, Cox was chairman of the Committee on Homeland Security, the Energy and Commerce Committee and the Select Committee on U.S. National Security.
Cox is a graduate of Harvard Law School and Harvard Business School. He took a leave from Latham in 1982 to teach federal income tax at Harvard Business School for a year.
I am normally a fan of this column, but not a fan of this interview. First of all, the whole situation is atypical of most of what's going on in the legal industry and is covered by this blog - he's a govt employee (how did he get laid off in the first place?) looking to make a partner level move to a large firm. Secondly, the fact that he had a dozen interviews in 4 mos. is again, atypical, and actually seems bogus in this economy and job market. Finally, his assertion that he is able to go on interviews, play lots of golf and spend QT with the kids seems exaggerated. Since I've been laid off I've been home with the kids and barely have any time for anything else including searching for a job. Golf? Impossible, unless they have a nanny (and if they can afford a nanny while out of work, I am not really sypmethic to his plight). Lots of hyperbole here me thinks...
Also, while I initially thought the whole Roxana thing was cute, I now am somewhat disturbed by the realization that she seems to be a character made up by ATL. Is all of this is fiction? I'm going to believe that it is until we learn something about Roxana to confirm she is a real person.