Pls Hndle Thx: Reverse Schadenfreude
Ed. note: Have a question for next week? Send it in to advice@abovethelaw.com.
ATL,
What is current law firm protocol with respect to affairs between partners and associates? The head of one the practice groups at my firm is having an affair with an associate in another group. It has been going on for awhile and is embarrassing for some of us who are aware (funny how people think they are being discreet, isn’t it?!). Am I obligated to tell someone? Will anything happen to them or is it generally acceptable (or not a concern) for this to go on? I’d like to send a note to the managing partner or head of HR — thoughts?
Rats of Nimh
Dear Rats of Nimh,
My first reaction to this question is, seriously, who cares? My second reaction is, calm down and get a life. Unless you think the associate has avoided layoffs (if any) because of protectia, what’s it to you if a partner you may or may not work with is having an affair with an associate whom he or she does not review?
I fail to see how this affair is embarrassing to you and others, unless you’re jealous that you were not selected as the object of desire. This happened to me once, where a partner I had a rabid crush on passed me over for another associate and I became enraged and threatened to three friends that I would lateral out because distance makes the heart grow fonder, at which point one of them reminded me that I had never actually spoken to said partner in real life, per se. The point is, “reverse Schadenfreude,” as my friend Megan likes to call it (i.e., fury at other peoples’ happiness), is a powerful emotion. It’s tough to think that others are experiencing carefree sexual liaisons and personal fulfillment while you code documents by the glow of your Pets Who Want to Kill Themselves computer wallpaper. However, polite society dictates that you grin and bear it. In these sort of situations, I find that gossiping viciously helps.
Emailing the managing partner or head of HR is patently ridiculous. They may be hosting the liaisons for all you know, like Jerry Seinfeld did for Madonna and A-Rod when he invited them to his Hamptons house to conduct their adultery in some peace and quiet.
Sorry to say, but you’ll just have to live with this one.
Your friend,
Marin
After the jump, no references to Les Miserables.
Under good Samaritan statutes that may be applicable in your state, I think you have a duty to report this situation to … no I’m just kidding.Marin is right that this is clearly none of your business. And even if you made it your business, nobody likes a snitch. But since you are asking, the affair is not appropriate.
As I’ve said to countless friends over the course of my life: don’t s*** where you eat. It’s really that simple. The partner is exposing himself (or herself) to a sexual harassment lawsuit. The associate is exposing herself to a partner, and that is just gross. People who have sex with people they work with are painfully uncreative and lack the social skills to catch a date in the wild.
So feel free to laugh, mock, and scorn both the partner and associate. While you are at it, feel free to tell Above the Law which firm and which partner you are talking about. But don’t run off to HR like a little tattletale.
Snitches get stitches.
Big Pussy Bonpensiero
It’s not that lawyers necessarily “lack the social skills to catch a date in the wild.” How are you supposed to pan for gold between the hours of 10pm-6am during the week and 1-4pm on Sundays? Attorneys typically lock down their relationships early because they know that once they start working, they won’t have time to go on horrible first dates or haunt the Barnes & Noble lecture series. If you’ve found love in college or law school (ahem, Elie), you’re just as uncreative as someone who finds love at work. For those of us who dared to emerge from law school single, you’ve got to take intrigue where you can get it, and sometimes “it” is located in the office down the hall.
Ed. note: Have a question for next week? Send it in to advice@abovethelaw.com.
(80) Comments
Comments
FIRST!
Foist?
SECOND
5th Bitches
I agree with Marin on this one. As long as they aren't boinking in the office, it's fair game, particularly if they are in unrelated practice groups. I used to get my panties in a bunch about people hooking up at work, but honestly, that was just because I was an overly righteous, early-twentysomething. Once I lived the dream, (by living at work), I started to see that "law firm hot" was not so bad.
Of course, I never did dip my pen in company ink, but I wish I had. There was something between a fellow associate and me, and I spurned his advances. And he was such a great guy, too. Ah...love lost.
Crazy thought, if it's an "affair" (meaning one of the two is otherwise committed by marriage to someone else), you just get the adulterer's home phone number from the firm directory, call it from a payphone and tell the spouse what's going on. That will end it pretty quickly.
If it's two single people doing the horizontal mambo, it's none of your business...
5 = Tonya Harding.
I met my husband at work. He was my designated mentor.
I am amazed how much people love squeling. Who the fuck is that person? The Morality police? Pat Robertson? If two people are having fun without disturbing your rights, it's not your fucking business what they do.
It's official based on the last post. Lat finds all white men attractive.
The word you are looking for is Gluckschmerz.
Gather evidence, hold evidence until performance review, disclose evidence upon being told of your dismissal for economic reasons, and accept partner's apology.
Fuck you, Ellllie, you fat fucking turd.
Not my work, but someone had to say it.
Last evening Kash tricked me into carnal relations three times. Should I be worried about this? Do I have any remedies?
Isn't reverse schadenfreude just empathy?
Your friend "Megan" is an imbecile -- "reverse Schadenfreude" is an idiotic concoction. I hate when morons fancy themselves for inventing a word when it is not called for, ever hear of envy or jealousy? I'll bet she (and you apparently) thought that was such a clever little brainstorm -- BZZT! Wrong again!
Guys in my high school used to marry their designated work mentors then go on to be President all the time. It was no big deal.
btw as a reader I find it insulting that Lat keeps asking us to go to his other blogs. If something actually is of interest to the readers of ATL post it here. I'm not going to load five blogs so you can make more money Lat. Many of these "read my new blog" links on ATL and facebook seem a little needy.
14- see restatement section 90, should provide some guidance
No snitching.
Marin is pathetic, in the colloquial sense of the term.
At Boies Schiller, we have a name for when these sorts of inappropriate, scandalous, workplace liasons happen -- Tuesday! Associate/Paralegal, Associate/Secretary, Associate/Associate, Partner/Associate, Partner/Partner, Partner/Client...
Elie = Big Pussy, I can see that.
16 - the phenomenon of suffering at someone else's happiness is conceptually distinct from envy/jealousy, and is in fact the reverse of schadenfreude (which is "taking joy from others' suffering"). this is a recognized psychological phenomenon, and people have noted frustration in coining a term for it. see http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/fugitives/revschadenf.htm
The sender's original letter gives nothing away about the alleged lovers' respective genders in regards to their company positions.
But "Big Pussy Bonpensiero" mans up and assumes (either from ignorance or arrogance) that the partner is male and the associate is female. Way to go, you big pussy!
25 = PE
Am I the only one to see that the person who is looking for permission to be a snitch is someone that USED to be getting banged by one of the participants but no longer is and is bitter.
Just sayin.
I saw two instances of this at my old firm (partner/associate hookup). I didn't say anything. I remember once late at night knocking on the partner's office door and being told to hold on. A full two minutes later the associate opened the door. The partner was standing up in the corner of her office pretending to be looking for something and the associate just excused himself. Very awkward. I think these kinds of sad hookups are common in big lawfirms where partners and associates spend 70 hrs avg in the office. I would ignore it.
More to the point - can we discuss how best to set up the nanny-cam in the participant's offices to get some good video?
17 FTW!
-Barry O'Bomber
16, 24- I had the same reaction as 16. 24 may have a point, but it is irrelevant. What Marin was describe was exactly jealousy--he wanted something someone else had. Also, 24, care to explain how RS differs from jealousy/envy in general? I'd wager that anyone who think his anger at another's happiness is unrelated to envy is just deluding himself.
What a bunch of yanking wankers you all are. Navel gazing bullshit wrapped in a flaky crust of faux sophistication.
Crush them both and enjoy the resulting misery -- we're lawyers right? Emotions are for the weak. And you can't bill for them.
29 - Have you missed the memo that "lawyer hot" =/= real world hot?
Not to mention that it seems like the entire universe is pregnant right now.
ATL,
What is your policy regarding whether comments are turned on or not? As a rabid/angry/bored/addicted commenter I would like to have the sense when not to click (0) comments with hopes of obtaining the first spot on the comment bored.
-Pls Hdl Thx.
33 - 29 here, unless they are walking whales, two people doing various carnal connections in the office has an automatic hot factor.
ATL,
What is your policy regarding whether comments are turned on or not? As a rabid/angry/bored/addicted commenter, I would like to have the sense when not to click (0) comments with hopes of obtaining the first spot on the comment board.*
-Pls Hndle Thx.
BTW, y wuld u shrtn Handle 2 Hndle? You don't have time to type the fucking A? Fuckin A Man.
*Minor corrections and an addendum were made to post 34
does it even matter if either of the parties are married/partnered? do you really think it is your place to break this up or snitch on ANYONE's affair to their employer, spouse, or bf/gf? why does that seem like a good idea? people make their beds and if consequences are to follow, they will happen on their own eventually. further the point, these people are not in the same group! might as well be at different firms.
seems to me the author of the letter is lonely (an understandable feeling for a big law associate). might i suggest the author find his or her own law firm lover? it could prove to be fun and convenient since associates are at work all the time anyway.
If you gratuitously insert yourself into this situation where is your upside?
That is correct, none.
Possible downside?
a. Partner marries associate, both blackball you with the firm. You never make partner but don't realize that until it is too late to lateral to another firm with partnership potential.
b. Firm disciplines partner, partner blames you for the embarrassment and the loss of the love of his life, he blackballs you with the firm. You never make partner but don't realize that until it is too late to lateral to another firm with partnership potential.
c. Partner and associate quit to form their own litigation boutique, but no one at your firm every trusts you again. You never make partner but don't realize that until it is too late to lateral to another firm with partnership potential.
Get the picture?
I bet the person who wrote this to Marin is a woman. Men don't care about this sh*t and, if they do, they're just whiny bitches and should shut up. If people want to have sex, it's no one else's business, even if they are doing it in the office. Don't hate and don't c*ck block. Live and let live, it's the more mature and healthy choice.
38 must be retarded. If this partner is married, this affair is going nowhere. If this partner is single, then he has nothing whatsoever to be ashamed about.
And why would the original advice seeker be embarrased by two a-holes hooking up at work? Big fucking deal. It happens all the time.
38, three-way is the answer to your first question. I didn't read the rest of your overly long piece of shit analysis of common sense.
What's the big deal? Happened all the time at my old firm which was mid-sized craphole. In fact a few of the more crafty female associates who banged the married partners parlayed their affairs into getting partnership positions without having a book or any discernable skills for that matter. Probably could operate a hidden video camera though. I did not give a crap other than to think when I left for a better job, what a low class place it was.
If the person posing that question has a brain, that person will keep his/her mouth shut. As one poster indicated, no good will come of it. Nobody likes a rat and if two consenting adults want to get together, it's thier business. One exception might be if the person gets passed up for partnership in favor of the associate having the affair which I suppose is possible even if they are in different groups as you never know how the partner ranks on the power scale. But good luck proving it. People rarely get in trouble for keeping their mouths shut - they more often do so when they open them.
Yo Marin-
The apostrophe in the possessive of "people" goes between the e and the s (people's), because "people" is already plural.
(i.e., fury at other peoples' happiness)
You're welcome.
"My first reaction to this question is, seriously, who cares? My second reaction is, calm down and get a life. Unless you think the associate has avoided layoffs (if any) because of protectia, what's it to you if a partner you may or may not work with is having an affair with an associate whom he or she does not review?"
This is the stupidest "advice" I've read in an advice column in sometime. If your advice was "Look, don't say anything unless you want to get fired" like later in the column, then that I would understand. But "what, are you jealous?" as advice. How stupid. Of course romantic relationships-and especially affairs-are the business of employers, otherwise most employers wouldn't have HR policies that specifically deal with the issue (and typically prohibit or curtail them.) The same should be no different at a law firm. That it MIGHT be different is a condemnation of law firm culture, which is something you should address with your "advice" with more than a snarky little "get a life comment."
15 - Do you know what empathy means?
24- or inverse?
PE is a cock-watcher.
I'm dating a girl I work with and it's awesome. If anyone told me I wasn't allowed to date her, I'd probably go ballistic on them. It's no one else's business. Period.
Ok, this is an odd question but is on topic. I am currently an associate at a firm. How would I go about seducing a female partner and having an affair with her?
Any tips? 3 or 4 choices come to mind that would be acceptable.
I say for all the unmarried people under 30, firms should implement arranged marraige of associates. This way they'll get complete control over their personal and professional lives.
Most partners treat their marital vows as seriously as PE treats his obligation to pay his Discover Card balance on time.
48: Find an environment where you will have drinks with her. Don't be overbearing AT ALL. Instead, act the composed gentleman, which will make you seem mature and sophisticated. Engage her in interesting conversation and look her in the eyes when she's talking so that she believes you're genuinely interested. At that age, most men have started to ignore women, so just the simple act of making her think that what she says is important to you will go miles. Through some subtle flirting into the mix after you've reached a certain comfort level, then, if she seems receptive, pick it up a notch and let her know that you'd like to continue the conversation over drinks somewhere private. Go to a nice bar, buy her a few drinks and seal the deal.
48 - UFIA
* Through = Throw
Sorry, changed thought in mid-sentence and didn't update the sentence.
- 51
51 -
You forgot to include DHV spikes, negs and body rocking. If you're going to do Mystery Method, get it right or pay the price.
Also, expect the female partner to say, "Are you doing Mystery Method on me because that is absolutely hilarious."
Go ahead and tell the managing partner. And legally change your name to "Blackballed" while you're at it. (No, Elie, that's not a racist joke.)
Marin - I don't actually understand anything you just wrote, but I think I just fell in love with you.
- 51
Whoever submitted this is a loser and needs to get a life and mind her own business.
47: its awesome until y'all break up
Many many people date people at work, Sal--and for good reasons. Dating isn't shitting either. It's fucking. And there's a difference.
Hi, 48 here.. thanks for the tips.
Also, what is UFIA... I assume its an insult of some sort...
I will give your style a go 51. Also, I think the mystery method involves pretending what the women says is NOT important to you.. I don't think 51's advice falls under the mystery method and we'll see how it works out.
59: How come both those things happen within 2 inches of each other?
--Paulie W.
42: "People rarely get in trouble for keeping their mouths shut - they more often do so when they open them."
Vell zaid, Herr 42! Keep zee mouth zhut and veel all be zimply perfekt! Nuzzing to zee here!
- Herr Franz Heinz Gonzalez, age 87
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Really, what is the issue here?? It's not like a high school student is rolling around with their teacher. I guess if rats of nimh is really angry and finds out the partner is married, she can always be the little bird in the partner wife's ear that tells them to get a divorce.
42 here...ok, point taken 62, and that is pretty funny. Still I think a partner going at with an associate does not quite rise up to the level of genocide unless the partner is in the habit of murdering and burying the associates he screws in his back yard at the end of each affair. Still, other than something like that, saying something about it to HR or whoever is in power is a good way to kiss one's career goodbye. Being an associate means you are crap at the bottom of the totem pole. HR reports to the partners who tend to close ranks around their own, particularly if they make rain. The only person who usually loses is the person who rats. As for my general advice about keeping one's mouth shut, it usually (Holocaust excepted) is good advice - it's how I have stayed married so long.
BigLaw would be intolerable without an occasional BJ from an idealistic junior associate or a quickie after hours in the small conference room doubling as a document warehouse. Law firm hot is definitely a much lower standard than regular NYC hot but I have been lucky enough to enjoy a few liasions over the years with some of the fine talent that graces our halls from time to time. Some of these high achieving women are anything but straight-arrows in the sack.
Must be a chick who wrote in and complained.
I understand how an average member of the American public becomes pre-occupied with other people's private relationships, but a lawyer??? Good grief.
And for the record, you're screwed either way when a boss has the hots for you. As someone who would not give in to their boss, it was a long and dirty climb out.
"I fail to see how this affair is embarrassing to you and others, unless you're jealous that you were not selected as the object of desire."
44 - "The same should be no different at a law firm."
well put
Makes you wonder who Obama is banging in the West Wing.
An associate banging a partner is screwed literally and eternally. If the affair continues, no partnership due to perceived favoritism and incest; if the affair ends, it will be so uncomfortable that associate must leave to survive; if the associate rolls the sexual harassment dice, even if well taken, the best that can happen is both careers are over, the worst is that the associate is slowly but surely eased out, paid off or otherwise eliminated from the firm A-list.
A one time bangalang, might not be noticed; EVERYONE knows about a regular offender, and the partner owns the place. Don't tattle-help the associate.
ahem Elie found her in college. lucky bastard.
What is the Mystery Method?
OMG. Dating an associate; dating a partner: two hells I wouldn't wish on my WORST enemy. Are you insane? Law associates/partners are the MOST boring, MOST bitchy, MOST anal, MOST misguided losers I have ever encountered... why one earth would someone want to date one?!
So many of you don't know what you're talking about. This is incredibly common. Many firms do not absolutely forbid it, unless it involves a direct superior/subordinate, and even if in the same group, if you disclose it, you will often be staffed on work from other partners and that partner's reviews will be ignored or discounted. All my firm requires is that you tell them if you are dating a co-worker (and really, only if it's a co-worker you actually work with).
And if neither party is married, there isn't anything wrong here AT ALL. You whiny bastard.
If you got fired simply for dipping your ink in the company inkwell, half of my firm would be gone.
the good samaritan statute in your state requires you to put and end to this affair.
42/64 - Just taking the opportunity for comedy. Your alternative scenario would be good for a Bones episode or a legal thriller. Copyright that!
- Herr 62
Seems to me that the Partner is probably married. I mean aren't most Partner's married, with multiple children? I say rat the bastard out and then say you are "DOING IT FOR THE CHILDREN." This will put you beyond reproach.
Back when I worked at a V5 firm abroad, we had a bat$hit crazy associate banging the copy boy, and then stalking him. She didn't even understand when the OMP forbade her from talking to him. Hilarious for the whole office. We loved it!
Interesting cross topic at:
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/relationships/blog/2009/07/a_romanian_dates_a_coworker.html
Another blog I love
I'm squarely in the Who Cares column on this one. All this affair-having and didn't-pay-taxes-on-the-nanny crap that derails otherwise good people on their way up (or over) is a problem this whole country needs to get over. If it's not personally affecting you, then you got nothing. If you're passed over for a raise in favor of the partner-banging-associate, then you got something, but I would not recommend using it.
44: Exactly. It's not crazy to feel a little uneasy about such a relationship. The partner/associate pairing is a particular problem if the two are in the same practice area. Lots of employers have anti-fraternization policies, in large part to stem sexual harassment suits.