When you say "native Japanese required," is that a hard cutoff? What about an extremely strong Japanese background with 8+ years of study, including experience with legal Japanese?

Your not-so-subtle mention of your vacationing screams insecurity. No one cares where you are right now, and it's extremely unprofessional.

How can a firm be "emotionally invested" in a particular candidate. Or anything else, for that matter. A firm is a company; it doesn't have feelings. The hiring folks at the firm are capable of becoming emotionally invested, although I seriously doubt that happens. Ever. Oh, and 1 wins comment of the thread.

2, thanks for your good question and feel free to get in touch with me at evan@kinneyrecruiting.com to further discuss.

First, keep in mind that the majority of openings that require Japanese fluency will not require native level fluency.

If you are at the native level of fluency in Japanese (you do not have to be a Japan native to be at this level, although not common), then you could land this particular spot. For example, last year I did place a mid-level M&A associate in Japan for a postion that required native level of fluency, although the candidate was a native American who studied Japanese and lived in Japan for some years. He was at the native level, so he met the language requirement, no problem, even though he is not born and raised in Japan.

However, it is a pretty hard cut off. For example, I am representing two junior associates who have the right academic and first year firm background, and who are both fluent in Japanese with years of work experience there (before law school), but both are not going to be interviewed for this particular postion because they are not quite at native level of fluency.

4, In a nutshell it works like this: There are many more very qualified US associate candidates for positions in Asia than there are positions availalable. When a particular partner is ready to make a hire and has clearance from the home office to do so (not always a given in this tough market), then he usually already has a few candidates that he is "emotionally invested" in (just an expression, although better words could be used), due to discussions on-going for some months, including a face to face meeting. Those discussions started off as informational, get to know you talks, but because they have gone well, the partner is already invested in such candidates and is not really all that interested in starting an interview process with new candidates, even if they are also highly qualified (many of those on market anyways).

About half of the placements I have made this year in Asia, and about half of the placements I am in the process of making, have followed this trend. For example, a mid-level M&A placement I made in HK last week (candidate moving from NYC) occured after the candidate had been in discussions with his new firm since September '08 and had flown to HK and met with HK partners who happened to be visiting NYC. The informational discussions turned to more formal ones around April. The other finalists had also started discussions with the relevant partners at the firm no later than February.

As another example, I am representing a very impressive mid-level cap markets associate at a top 10 US firm in HK. He has been on the market since October '08 and is close to offers at a few firms, but those partners are waiting to get clearance from their home offices to make a new hire. This likely will not happen until September. When it does, this particular candidate will have an offer or two from firms that have a need but never had to advertise such need or even let their prefered recruiters know about it. Months in advance of a hire, I knew from my relationships with the particular partners that there could be a need in '09, once IPOs pick up again, and I made the introduction. Of course the candidate was well aware of the introduction being made on preliminary / informational basis and was happy to do so, based on trust of my representation and market knowledge.

Sure, a firm is always going to hire the best candidate possible for a position, but in this very competitive and tight market there are a lot of great candidates and it is a major advantage to be in talks well in advance with partners who are potentially hiring later this year, early next year.

On the other hand, I also placed a mid-level US cap markets associate last week in HK (candidate also coming from HK firm) who was on the market for less than a month. Things just moved very quickly with one of his target firms and we only contacted his new firm right when an opening there became active. In his case though, there was a particular mix background that the firm was looking for and he fit the bill. And this particular partner making the hire was not in discussions with potential candidates months leading up to the active opening.

As the lateral market continues to heat up and eventually (hopefully by some point next year) returns to normal conditions, this type of long-term discussion / interview process is not going to work for firms, as they will lose candidates to other firms' offers. Even in the past month I am seeing for the first time in '09 my candidates have multiple offers, so things are improving. But I have a number of great candidates now who are in discussions with partners of target firms in Asia on an informational / preliminary basis and who are very likely to get offers from those firms at some point in the future, due to there already being an established relationship between partner and candidate, a lot of momentum towards a hire when the time is right.

This is the way that a lot of recruiting is being done in Asia now. It is not as simple as simply firing off resumes to a long list of firms and hoping for the best (although many recruiters are doing this, especially in this market).

Although I am frustrated by the economic downturn as much as anyone (mainly because I know a lot of associates that are struggling to find any work at all, after being laid off), a silver lining is that a number of placements being made in HK / China in '09 are being very well thought out hires, by both the firm and candidate, due to the long-term discussions involved. In the red hot lateral market in Asia from late '06 through mid '08, there was some panic hiring going on and sometimes it was not the best fit, in hindsight (but partners were commonly giving offers then without more than a phone call with applicants).

Thus for the most qualified associate candidates in HK / China markets (not so much in Japan and Singapore as those markets are not hiring as much) today, there is a great opportunity to take the time to really get to know target firms' offices and relevant partners during what can be a long-winded process. In many cases I am noticing reversals of preconcieved notions such candidates had about themarket and target firms when starting their job search. Thus I find it to be a better process now, BUT of course only for those most qualified candidates that are getting interviews and eventual offers. Unfortunately, for most qualified and impressive US associate candidats on the market in Asia (whether coming from US or within Asia), there is not much opportunity for interviewing in this market, much less offers. For those, things will pick up in '10 at some point I believe and it would be a mistake for those candidates who cannot compete for offers in '09 to start contacting firms on informational basis or otherwise. Of course, there is not a bright line cut off of which candidates can be competitive in this tough market and which unfortunately will not be. There is a gray area and you should have a very good understanding of the market and potential target firms' staffing situations before starting a job search.

1, if you read Evan's post last week, you would see a lot of evidence of increased deal flow in China. You could also figure that out by talking to major firm asociate friends in China. Work has really picked up in the past 6 weeks, at least for me and for most people I know in the market. I am an associate at a magic circle firm's US practice in HK.

3, get over yourself. Seems like Evan and Robert always say where they are to start these posts. Not sure why it matters, except when they are in asia, but no need to get hot and bothered by it. So Evan and Robert are successful recruiters who take nice family vacations, does that truly upset you?

Robert here. As usual, Evan's doing an awesome job of fielding your questions. if you get in touch with him (he works around the clock but he's in high demand), he'll do an excellent job of filling you in on probably more than you ever wanted to know about the Asia markets.

3, I have to admit that I am very insecure. I'm insecure about being able to help everyone that turns to us for help as well as I would like to, and I'm insecure about lots of other stuff, but that keeps me strong. I'm not the least bit insecure about whether I can afford a vacation, if that's what you mean. I'm not an extravagant person but I did spend 13 Euros today renting a paddle boat with my family to ride around the lake. I am also not the least bit insecure about whether getting out of the Texas (or Hong Kong) heat for the summer is better for us than hanging around there in July and August. We come here pretty much every summer. I've been doing so since I was a child to spend time with relatives here, and my offer of help on finding out about Styria and particularly the Ausseerland/Dachstein region is sincere. So far I have worked about eight hours today, so it's not even much of a vacation. You're probably a recruiter. I can tell in part because the common refrain of upset recruiters is to attack other recruiters for their lack of professionalism. My tip to you is this - look at yourself and not at ripping others or this column for support of your practice. If you think you're really very good and want to be involved in this market, send me an email to robert@kinneyrecruiting.com and let's get into a dialogue. Don't mention the snide comments, please, because I'm human and won't like you more for knowing it. But neither I nor Evan nor anyone else on our team is so proud to think we can accomplish all we want to do without openness to working with new people who can grow our skill set and our reach. And your presence on this board as one of the first commentators is a sign at least of your interest in the region.

Does anyone else think Evan is on Adderall?

So Evan is originally from Singapore... now we know why he's such a freak.

Evan, are any TMT practices hiring in HK / China these days?

Evan - 4 here. I'm not going to bother reading your way too long response to my (apparently not so obvious) rhetorical question. But don't let it get you down. I enjoy TAC, even though you come on pretty strong and spend way too much time bickering with posters who are clearly just other recruiters.

Evan and Robert both have such big egos.

Hey Evan, thanks for the informative posts and also thanks for taking the time to meet me in Bal Harbour yesterday. Much appreciated.

Evan, how many placements have you made in China this year? It is a terrible market, so I would not expect much, if any, but judging by your long comment above it seems that your are making some. I am a recruiter and just curious. Thanks.

Evan:

2 here. Thanks for your response w/r/t language ability. That's quite helpful.

Keep hustlin. It ain't over for me, no it ain't over for me
Keep, flowin. I'ma step my game up and get what's comin to me.

DJay
Hustle & Flow

18, too funny!! Comment of the year!

These posts make me nautious. So tired of them. Who cares about a recruiters in Miami and Austin regarding the Asia markets anyways?

You know it's hard out here for a pimp [in Asia] (you ain't knowin)
When he tryin to get this money for the rent (you ain't knowin)
For the Cadillacs and gas money spent (you ain't knowin)
Because a whole lot of *itches talkin *hit (you ain't knowin)
Will have a whole lot of *itches talkin *hit (you ain't knowin)

Shug
(Djay's friend)
Hustle & Flow

20-- 21 was addressed to you, I think.

16, it has been a rough year, as you know. Up until May it was brutal, but I have had a run of placements since then that is respectable, even in a strong market. The total number so far this year is 14, although 10 have happened in the past 9 weeks. It is a low number compared to the full years of '07 and '08, but the past two months have been very good. Also in that number is 4 counsels and two partners so the revenue is still pretty high this year.

As for 2nd half '09, I think numbers will be better. We are doing well not because of the lateral market getting all that much better, but mainly because there is some hiring going on finally and compared to '06, '07 and '08, we have a larger group of very impressive candidates nowadays. If we were as well known in '07 as we are now, my '07 numbers would have been at least double what they were (and I did extremely well that year, with 35 placements in HK / China alone). I have in the past relied mainly on referals but in past year strong candidates have been also reaching out to us due to simply our presence in the market.

I think things will pick up dramatically in the lateral market by this time next year, so there is light at the end of the tunnel.

12, there are a couple of TMT groups looking, but not very urgently. We are representing a TMT partner that may move soon, so that will change things up in the market a bit. Only a handful of firms in HK have strong TMT groups.

13, thanks for reading and enjoying the posts. My long-winded response was not simply to answer your comment. Your comment just gave me an excuse to babble on about the subject.

20, I suggest you simply not read the posts. We do have a recruiter based permanently in HK, Alexis, and I spend about 4 months of the year in HK. In any event, some of my more productive days are sitting on the beach here in Miami, glued to a computer and phone and not having to run around HK or other Asia markets to meetings all day and evening.

7 wins the thread.

Evan, I am a recent JD graduate at top 5 law school and have 1st year position waiting for me in NYC at a v 20 firm. However, my start date has been deferred a year. Do I have any chance of landing an entry level position in Asia or is that just wishful and naive thinking on my part? Also, is it ethical to seek out a new permanent position before starting at first firm, consideirng the deferment?

I am a 4th year associate at a big law firm. I have a very strong background in international trade and native Mandarin and English skills. Unfortunately, I have little or no experience in M&A, project finance, or capital markets, which seem to be the areas that firms are looking for in HK or China. If I wish to make a move to HK or China in the future, would you recommend that I re-tool myself, or continue with my current career path?

28, it is a gray area. Normally, you should not be looking to move when a firm is expecting you to show up as 1st year, but in this crazy market where there are long deferments, you should be looking out for yourself. It should not be considered unethical to decide to be employed rather than unemployed for your first year out of law school.

With that said, it is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, for you to find such an entry level postion. Interestingly, though, we have just such a position available now in Tokyo for a class of '09 or '08 native Japanese fluent associate / recent JD grad. This particular firm will be interviewing candidates who were scheduled to start at top US firms in September but have been deferred 6 months or more.

29, I would hesitate to dramatically re-tool since you are already a 4th year and heavily invested in your practice. In this market it will be difficult to switch to a corporate practice anyways. If you need to be in HK / China in the next year or two, then it will be difficult with international trade background. But firms are diversifying more and I think it will be possible for you to make such a move, within your international trade practice, in the next 3 years. It is important to make yourself known to the few relevant target firms in HK / China and prepare for very long-term job search.

I can't blame Evan for trying to do his thing (after all, he pays for this space) but the commenters on Asia Chronicles are the most pathetic on all of ATL.

why are all the new recruits coming from NYC? will there be the same expectation that new recruits come from NYC at crappier firms?

33, it is not that all the recruits are coming from NYC or that firms are only looking at NYC associates. I was just pointing out the likelihood of which markets the hires would be from. When it comes to PE / M&A hires, for example, the best are usually from NYC because most of the top PE firms are Wall St. based (other than K&E ) and there has not been tremendous PE / M&A practices in China until relatively recently (so talent pool is mostly from NYC).

In cap markets, the hires come from mix of HK / China and NYC, but also could of course come from other major US markets, London or other asia markets.

I am a 3rd year associate with a v5 firm. Thinking about trying my luck in asia.
1. Is CA admission as competitive as NY admission?
2. I am in the area of TMT, patent, VC, PE. How is high tech PE doing in Greater China?
3. What is the best way to contact you?

Thanks.

I am a 3rd year associate with a v5 firm. Thinking about trying my luck in asia.
1. Is CA admission as competitive as NY admission?
2. I am in the area of TMT, patent, VC, PE. How is high tech PE doing in Greater China?
3. What is the best way to contact you?

Thanks.

36 = FAIL.

Re question #3, you've already shown yourself to be an idiot.

Both Robert and Evan are handsome old men.

I think all posts of Kinney needs to be prefaced with the fact that they are interested ONLY in placing Biglaw associates (that too V50) from top 10 schools.

Evan/Robert:

Do you place associates in Australia? (your post mentioned Aus but I was not clear if you do any work there). I may be relocating to the East Coast of Aus for personal reasons and would love to hear about opportunities for US lawyers there.

Evan/Robert
Is it difficult to get partners to deal with you given you didn't attend elite law schools? Or am I overestimating the difficulty of your job?

Evan - Are you seeing any bank lending work in Asia yet or is it still really slow?

41, you must be joking, but just in case some, such as law students, don't see that: Both Robert and I went to top 20 law schools and worked in biglaw, but partners we deal with could care less that we have JDs, much less where we went. Why would they care? It is all about results. Some business relations with client firm partners have become close and even turned to friendships, but if we could not provide the talent these partners are looking for (plus also be proven resources for such partners when they themselves want to look on the market), the relations would never had been started. Honestly, the fact that a recruiter happens to be a former biglaw associate is not all that relevant, but a lot of associates and some recruiters think it is so it is part of the marketing I suppose... At most, it can help a recruiter relate better to what an associate is going through (up to the level of associate that the recruiter was before leaving biglaw), but it does not help relations with law firm clients. Some partners look at recruiters who recently left biglaw as simply lazy folks that could not hack it, so it is not all that great of a first impression.

35, thanks for your questions. Please feel free to contact me at evan@kinneyrecruiting.com and we can set up a call and / or meeting.

1. CA admission is just fine. Some US practices at British firms have soft requirement that associates in that practice have NY admission, but they are not going to push NY on you if you already have CA. Most US firms don't care which state your admission is in, but if it is NY based firm without CA presence, they may want you to eventually get NY down the road, if you stay with firm long-term.

2. It is an area that is picking up, especially in Shanghai and HK, but has a ways to go before being practice area for most US firms. There are some openings in your areas though.

3. as stated above, evan@kinneyrecruiting.com. You can also call 212.561.5875, but with all my traveling it is best to catch me by email.

42, picking up some, but still slow. There is a ton of lending in general going on by Chinese banks, but that is not carrying over so much into US and British firms.

40, Unfortunately, we have no focus on placements in Australia, although I have made a few in Sydney and Brisbane over the years. Perhaps in the future we will move into that market. We have helped some Australian attorneys break into HK and Dubai markets. Robert was refering to Austria, where he is on vacation.

39, in this market firms are being very selective so we can only place those that firms choose to hire, BUT we work with candidates for the long-term and are happy to advise and prepare those than can't be placed now for long-term job search or search starting in '10 or beyond. We also help a lot of people that we could never place, as much as we can.

Even in this market, it is not necessary to come from a top 10 law school, but only a top 50 firm, especially for a junior to mid-level associate, may not work with firms being so selective. On the other hand, 5+ year associates (the majority of those being placed in Asia anyways) can be very marketable coming from less than top 50 firms if they have the right deal experience.

Evan, is it possible to make a move to HK/Tokyo with backgrounds in US patent litigation?

48, Yes, it is possible. Feel free to email me at evan@kinneyrecruiting.com.

Robert, you're cute! I thought you were older.

Asia does not suffer to much the economic recession, so I guess it's normal for some people to move to Asia for more opportunities.

Evan, how do you allocate target firms among your candidates--for example, if one of your candidates has interviewed with one firm and all signs indicate this person will get an offer, at the same time, a better and higher-ranked firm also starts to look for people with this candidate's background and you do not introduce this candidate to this new firm, is that fair to the candidate? yes this candidate will get a job in the end from the the first firm, but he/she would be much happier with the second firm.

Evan, assuming things continue to pick up, when do you expect the global hiring freeze to let up or will some firms just work their associates? Also, how important are grades for laterals? Finally, how do lateral interviews differ from law school interviews? Thanks.

50 = Robert

52, good question. I will always always provide all opportunities to each candidate, including letting them know when their own firm is looking to hire in Asia. It is up to the candidate to decide what opportunity is best, I just provide all the information that there is about a particular target firm and the market in general, as well as give career advice. I help candidates make decisions but dont' make decisions for them. Placement fees don't dictate what advice we give. I know that may be hard to believe, considering the industry, but we get enough placement fees and it is more about long-term representation and referals than cashing one check.

In any event, it is rare that some brand new opening comes up a the 11th hour. Usually my candidates are in discussions with all good fit firms that may be potentially hiring within a few months of a job search. I will usually be in fairly deep discussions with candidates before starting a job search about each of those potential targets and we decide which ones are the better fit.

And US rankings and prestige, although important, are not the be all end all, especially in Asia, especially for associates who are not junior.

Also, usually once a candidate has an offer or two, there is a lot of momentum at those target firms and simply applying for a new opening, especially in this market, does not guarantee that the candidate will have an offer from that new target firm. Thus, if the candidate turns down the offer or two, it is because that firm is not the right fit, more so than there is a new opening.

53, it depends on the firm and when things pick up in US, not just in asia (market is already substantially picking up in HK / China, Korea and Indonesia, as far as deal flow goes). In reality, at least soft hiring freezes will be in place at some top firms until some point in '10, if US markets pick up substantially by '10. Some of the more prestigous firms have not had a ton of lay offs and are under more pressure to put their associates in US to work.

Grades are critical for laterals, although the grade cut off is sliding scale, depending on prestige of law school attended. During boom market in '06 and '07, grade cut off exceptions were being made some in Asia, but don't expect to see that again for a while (except for special language skills, such as native level Korean or Mandarin or Japanese, along with native level English).

Lateral interviews differ quite a bit from law school interviews. Lateral interviews are much more substantive, rather than only personality check (law school interviews). Further, it is much different interviewing for overseas position than down the street in a US market. When interviewing for Asia, Russia, or Middle East, these issues become more critical than with domestic lateral interviews (or intervewing in large London office): personality fit with partner, entrepreneurial drive, high level of maturity, being an obvious team player, dealing with other cultures well (there is a lot more client contact), self starter and being able to handle high responsibiiity.

The overseas offices are much smaller, obviously, and the degree of responsibility given to associates is typically much higher than in any US office. There is also more one on one working with partners, with deals being more leanly staffed and there being less structure in the offices in general. It can be a trial by fire experience at times and some associates, while being perfect fit for NYC office, are not cut out for it as well as others.

Sometimes overseas offices can feel kind of like a start up company, with there being a lot of enthusiasm in what is an emerging market. In Asia, while there are certainly institutional clients of firms, it is not nearly as many as in US and Western Europe. Therefore there is a lot of deals / business that can be up for grabs and ther is lot more excitement in the market place. If an associate interviewing for an overseas spot does not come across as the type of entrepreneurial person that would thrive in such an environment, be enthusiastic, and capable of helping on client pitches (at a much more junior level than what would be the case in US), then the best resume on paper, re academics and law firm experience, will not be enough to land the offer.

I can't imagine there would be that many openings for US patent litigators in Asia - yes, it might be "possible," but what are the chances of landing an offer? Is there a lot of demand?

57, you are right, it is possible, but not easy. In Tokyo it is easier than in China, but the IP litigation market is picking up in China from where it was only a couple of years ago. Ironically, in China it is easier to land an IP spot now than it was in the boom market, but it is still difficult.

Right now, for example, I am representing a counsel level IP patent litigator from US that is close to an offer at US firm in mainland China. I am also conducting a search for mid-level and senior associate level US IP litigators in HK.

Of course, the competition for these positions are fierce and it will be a few years before the IP litigation market in China grows to the point where a solid IP litigator from US, with Chinese backgroun, can realistically plan to move to HK / China with any practical certainty.

In Tokyo it is a bit easier to make such a move, especially if the candidate speaks Japanese.

Thanks Evan

You guys are ridiculous tools. Painfully obvious from each of these posts.

hi evan - how can a US attorney approach one of the entry level hire positions?

Hello Kind Sirs,

I got background in Chinese IP litigation and corporate M&A deals. Also got Chinese native skills and also self-motivated and winner. Can I get big paying job in China?

61, It is rare to find an entry level position at any major firm, whether abroad or in US, without landing such position through law school interviews. However, we do have native Japanese fluent opening that could be filled by a class of '09 or '08. If '09, it will be someone who has very impressive law school credentials and likely will be looking for a new position rather than be stuck on a defered starting date. Feel free to email me at evan@kinneyrecruiting.com if you would like to hear more about the Tokyo entry level spot.

Evan - are the "new hires" you list entry level?

64, not sure what you mean by "new hires you list" (what list?) but we do have on opening that is entry level, where '09 could fill it, for Tokyo, but candidate must be native fluent in Japanese and have stellar law school credentials. It is quite rare that a recruiter will be asked to find a entry level hire, as those are almost always found through law school interview process.

"-new hire likely to come from NYC market"

etc

64, can you read?

Evan, any pick-up in the India/South Asia practice areas?

68, hiring has not started to pick up yet in India practices in HK and Singapore, but there has been some increased work. A couple of senior strategic India practice hires were recently made in HK and Singapore. Also, a few of my India background US associate candidates are in preliminary interviews / discussions with US and British firms in HK, Singapore and Dubai. Still slow in India though.

Indonesia has been very busy in project finance.

I believe this post should be renamed the final fantasy.

Lawyer in HK

70, I am also a lawyer in HK, an associate in a major firm, and I agree with Evan and Robert that things have been picking up a lot in the last two months. Of course picking up from what was a dead market a few months ago does not mean things are booming and I don't think Kinney tries to give that impression.
I suggest you call around and talk to friends in the market if you are so slow and don't believe some firms are quite busy right now. Some firms are busy with new IPO work, including my group. Of course, if you are up at 6.45am and commenting on this board then you are either busy sitting at the office early or have a sleep problem.

71, things have indeed been picking up, but this bounce is not going to last. Everyone would tell you this if you talk to the economists and bankers in the region. China currently has a gigantic lending bubble, which is why the Chinese stock market (A-share) and real estate market have been going up lately. The economy will double dip. There won't be much active hiring until maybe late '11 or '12 at the earliest.

Evan & Robert. Thanks so much for the AC contributions. They help me enormously in planning my career move to UAE. Evan, when is your Dubai trip? Thanks.

Evan, could you comment on the outlook for islamic banking law in Singapore and Hong Kong? Are there many openings in this area or would one need to go to the Middle East?

72, things are never that simple and easy to predict in economics, especially re China, the biggest emerging market in our lifetime. So your dire prediction, as well as a prediction on opposite end of spectrum is not reality.

A simple google search can find quotes from leading economists predicting a continued rebound in China and also quotes that express fears about possible bubble, due to too much lending. There will be more of the former than the latter, but it is impossible to predict with certainty.

Goldman Sachs has predicted for than 100 new IPOs in China for the rest of '09. That is pretty busy to say the least. The leading banks and other leading economic forecasters with ties to China have just about unanimously upgraded their predictions for China's economic growth in for '09 and '10, so those predictions don't foresee a crash in coming months or '10 (a correction in market is not a crash).

Also, there could very well be a correction in the market, as Shanghai Index is likely overvalued, but that does not mean there will be a shut down of deal flow. Unless China's govt. halts IPOs (like what happened in late '08 and lasting 9 months, until just recently), the IPOs will continue. There are a lot of factors that are increasing M&A activity and that has been the case since mid last year (there was a shut down of M&A deal flow when market collapsed in late '08, but that started to rebound early this year).

Also, when we are talking about a rebound and improvement in the market, that does not mean at all that there is a return to boom times. An improvement over the dead market in late '08 and earlier this year in China is not saying much.

Hiring has picked up in HK / China for US assocates, BUT it is at nowhere near the level of '06, '07 and first half '08. It is still a very slow lateral market. It will probably remain slow, even as firms become understaffed, because there is a lot of pressure on US and British firms not to hire globally and to shed as much expense as possible, including payroll. The name of the game is partner recruiting and firms have a hard time recruiting / retaining very important partners, with very large books of business, if they show decrease in profits for '09 at a much higher rate than their competitors.

74, most likely the Middle East.

73, I will next be in Dubai in September.

72,

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/07/news/economy/china_growth_investing.fortune/index.htm?section=money_latest

As I have been saying all along (not because of my personal expertise in economics, but simply being well read and frequently talking with senior partners and business leaders in China), China's domestic consumption is becoming more and more a subtantial factor in its growth (and that will not slow down over the long term, although there will be always be corrections in market and down turns here and there). While there are experts out there who still have dire predictions for China in '09 and '10, they are much much less in number than those that feel China has rebounded. The issue of possible over lending in China is not near the same set of facts that created bubble in West and although it is a concern, it is a by product of the recover in China. There had to be increase in lending and had to be a stimulus package in China in order for economy to so quickly rebound (keep in mind that China did not crash until late '08, about a year after US markets did). But as always, don't confuse the word "rebound" from a declaration that we are in boom times. A rebound from a dead market is not saying all that much, but deal flow is increasing in China and likely will continue to increase in biglaw there for the forseeable future (with only a possible blip of a few months or so if the China stock market does correct and China govt. again decides to temporarily turn off IPOs).

Evan, 100 IPOs *in* China is meaningless for US lawyers. Foreign lawyers and foreign firms are not allowed to work on domestic Chinese IPOs. US lawyers can benefit only when Chinese companies start to list in the US, and so far in '09 only 3 Chinese companies have listed in the US.

Evan,

Seems like you make all the placements for Kinney in Asia - why are you still associated with Kinney instead of just going out on your own and starting your own shop? I'm sure there's more money for you that way and more autonomy?

I'm a fellow recruiter who is making a ton of placements for my firm but receiving a very small cut and I'm entertaining thoughts of setting up my own shop...

79, yes of course the 100 IPOs expected are not going to all have direct effect on US attorneys but keep in mind that many US and British firms have HK practices, there are US components on many of these deals (even if not US listed IPO) and US attorneys do work on HK IPOs as well in some groups (it is not a black and white situation, where US attorneys only work on US listed IPOs, but of course those are the much more important IPOs for US attorneys). There is a trend right now of cash rich China companies acquiring US distressed assets, especially in automotive industry, so M&A is another area that is picking up, directly affecting US attorneys in HK / China.

80, Robert and I have been friends and business partenrs for a long time. I get a big cut of placements and also profit sharing. From a pure financial standpoint, I would not be better off if I started my own company because I would be spending a lot on advertising / marketing and so forth (Kinney invests heavily in my "practice", including but not limited to the AC posts and all my travel (I spend well over 150k easy per year on basic travel costs). But, the main reason I don't see myself leaving Kinney at any point in the future is because of the great working relationship that Robert and I have. We do things different at Kinney anyways. The idea that recruiters should be be getting a small cut of placements they make basically on their own is just an example of the greed that is in the industry. With that said, if a recruiting company is investing in its recruiters' practice and taking risks for its recruiters, then it deserves a decent share.

Evan why is the firm called Kinney Recruiting and not Kinney and Jowers recruiting?
-Not 80

Is anyone else surprised how simply awesome the economy and legal market are in Asia, in the midst of a deep global recession? - 84

Haha, 79 here. Evan, you really don't know what you are talking about. Let me educate you then.

There are 3 kinds of IPOs, SEC-registered US IPOs, Hong Kong IPOs (many with a 144A/Reg S international tranche) and domestic Chinese IPOs (i.e., A share companies listed in China). Although China assumed sovereignty over Hong Kong in 1997, for all intents and purposes Hong Kong is just like a separate country. Hong Kong has its own government, its own legal and judicial system and you need a passport and visa to travel between China and Hong Kong (I'm sure you know the last part). Hong Kong has a common law system, just like the U.S. and the UK. China has a "continental law" system, which is based on codes rather than precedents. You can only practice Chinese law if you are qualified in China. Hong Kong -qualified lawyers cannot practice in China, and China-qualified lawyers cannot practice in Hong Kong. Domestic Chinese IPOs are done under Chinese law, so only China-qualified lawyers and Chinese local law firms are allowed to work on them. Therefore, the 100 domestic Chinese IPOs may benefit China-qualified local Chinese lawyers, but certainly not US or UK-trained lawyers.

Evan/Robert,

Do either of you plan on coming to the mainland (PRC) any time soon? Or how can one reach out to your colleague(s) in your HK office?

Thanks

86 - are you a total loser? Or just trying to waste peoples' time?

www.kinneyrecruiting.com

evan@kinneyrecruiting.com

HK: +852.3051.8104 x704
TF: (888) 848-5757 x704
Mobile: (917) 292-8657

That took me about 15 seconds to find.
Hope that helps, dumbass.

- 87

85, Yes, I am aware of all that basic info about HK and China (HK is my second home after all), but the IPOs in China, while not directly putting US lawyers to work on the China IPO specifically (as we all know no foreign lawyer can practice China law, nor can PRC attorneys who are at foreign firms) create a lot of revenue for those Chinese companies directly and also prop up the market (and thus the value of other Chinese companies). This in turn creates a situation where Chinese companies can more easily acquire US and other foreign assets and also Chinese companies become more sought after and valuable in the global market. A lot of such companies also are more apt to have public offering in US markets as well. Also, US attorneys are in many cases directly involved in HK IPO work. Also, if any company listing on SHG or HK indexes is also listed in US, then there are US securities issues to deal with re the public offering of such companies in HK and / or China.

83, Robert created the company about a year before I joined up with him (although we knew each other for years prior). Kinney sounds a hell of a lot better than Kinney and Jowers (my name gets promoted enough as it is anyways in the marketing) and it is Robert's company. I get to focus on just recruiting and building the Asia markets while Robert has a lot of admin issues to deal with, in running a company, and I appreciate it. Most successful recruiters do strike out on their own, but most recruiting companies are not set up like we are at Kinney. It is a win win for both Robert and me. And it is not just a two person show. We have other very good recruiters.

86, I plan to be in mainland in August. In mean time you can reach Alexis in HK office or Robert and me in US or HK, as we are back and forth quite a bit. Face to face meetings are not always necessary, but we are happy to have them.

84, I would not say that the biglaw market is "awesome" at present in China. It is simply picking up substantially from very low depths of earlier this year. The economy in China is rebounding much quicker than expected and much quicker than in West (after a downturn hitting much later than in West), but it is not boom times. Just picking up, rebounding... There is a long way to go but things are moving in the right direction and fairly swiftly.

IPO Revival

As many as 100 companies may be reviving Hong Kong IPO plans after last year’s equities rout delayed sales scheduled for 2008, said Jonathan Penkin, Goldman Sachs Group Inc.’s Hong Kong-based head of equity capital markets in Asia outside Japan.

86 = evan

Evan, when do you expect India practices in Asia to really pick up? Early next year or even beyond? How often do partners and associates in a firm's India practice actually travel to India?

93 are you more clueless than 86? I think the answer is yes. Evan can write in the article / post how to get in touch with him or his colleagues and when he or them are in Asia. No need for him to pretend to be someone asking how to reach their HK office. Why in the %*$&% would he do that?

You are probably a recruiter competing with Evan and Robert. Yes, 93 = clueless recruiter.

94, hard to predict exactly. The last major India IPO involving US firm, at least that I know of, was in early '08. China appears to be rebounding quickly, but not necessarily the case with other Asia markets.

Most India practice attorneys I know in HK and Singapore do travel to India often.

94, South Korea is also rebounding. I am not an economist (and even most of those are useless at predicting sometimes), so can just see what is happening in present. I know China and South Korea are rebounding, but not sure when other Asia markets, including India, will. Korea practices were one of the first groups to get busy this year at US firms in Asia.

First!