I went from $160k BigLaw to $85k midsize and I work the same amount of hours. But that is the only work I could get in this economy. I am not pleased.

I went from $160K BigLaw to $120 Midlaw. Fewer hours, more stable job. Couldn't have been a better move.

make that $120k Midlaw.

--3

hahahahah

hahahahah

midlaw secure?!?!

MysTTTal -

All of your posts seem to advocate for the BigLaw, 160k model and hark it as superior. That model, obviously, DOESN'T WORK for all but a small handful of firms. Pretty soon you're going to see most firms moving from the 160k, lockstep regime since it's unsustainable.

My question for you is why you think this 160k lockstep system is so great. Do you have any reasons other than associates make lots of money?

160K to BK

Having $250,000 in debt and no job, going from $0 to $60K is an enormous improvement.

Go Midlaw, young man.

Ding fries are done
ding fries are done
ding fries are done
ding fries are done

I gotta run
i gotta run
i gotta run
i gotta run

I work at Burger King making flame-broiled whoppers i wear paper hats

would like an apple pie with that
would like an apple pie with that

Ding fries are done
ding fries are done
ding fries are done
ding fries are done

I gotta run
i gotta run
i gotta run
i gotta run

Dont touch the fries in hot fat it really hurts bad and so do skin graphs

would like an apple pie with that
would like an apple pie with that

Wait for the bell
cant hear the bell
where is the bell
wait for the bell

Ding fries are done
diiing friiies are dooone

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My NYC experience was more like 2's than 3's, although it wasn't as big a pay cut. That said, I worked many more hours and had far, FAR fewer resources (docketing, duplicating, secretarial, etc.) at the midsize shop, with even less predictability as to my day-to-day schedule. Much more nickel-and-diming (expenses, dinner/car home, etc.). Also, albiet my own experience, I found that the midsize shop had even more egocentric jerks than the Biglaw one, or at least had more and regular exposure to them at midlaw.

While Biglaw horrors are bad, midlaw is *NOT* a panacea. My two cents.

Mildew

@12 and 3 -

I jumped from BigLaw to SmallLaw (fewer than 15 lawyers) from NYC to another smaller city. My hours are sane and predictable, and my BigLaw experience got me into one of the top small shops around. While I make approx 35% less, I'm ridiculously more happy. There are no BigLaw perks, and there isn't a single BigLaw expectation. It's heaven.

I'm a perfectly happy mid-law associate. I make decent money, have reasonable hours and have a very good chance of making partner. I'd probably make 100k more in big-law, but I would never see my family and would not have job security or partnership prospects. Sure I'd like to make more, but I'm pretty content with my situation. Mid-law suits me just fine.

Kash looked fetching at LBI and Avalon this weekend in her two-piece swimsuit.

7 fails at reading comprehension.

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I've gone from 160k to 0--who the f is hiring?

I thought Akerman Senterfitt (a Miami law firm) traditionally represented Auto Nation. Has this really changed? If so, and if they have lost the Wayne Huizenga companies, they must be hurting.

The end of Biglaw? Well, I don't really think that the end can be assessed as of itself as being the end because what does the end feel like? It's like saying when you try to extrapolate the end of the universe, you say, if the universe is indeed infinite, then how - what does that mean? How far is all the way, and then if it stops, what's stopping it, and what's behind what's stopping it? So, what's the end, you know, is my question to you.

I can haz midlaw job now plz?

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Don't believe everything you read...

Midlaw is laying off plenty of associates, too....

Confirming that Chicago midlaw is definitely not "booming"....1st and 2nd year friends have been laid off.

"The good news is that midsize firms are hiring. "

Where?!?! Everyone keeps saying that mid and small sized firms are hiring, and yet there are no job postings or actual hiring going on.

I love it how Elie makes several unsubstantiated statements about the industry or anything republican. The only thing different between ATL and PerezHilton is that PerezHilton doesn't have that annoying grape-eating-asian Ad for Dealbreaker.

24 - Out here in CA they're the only ones hiring non-IP/L&E associates (albeit in small numbers, and largely through exclusive relationships with recruiters -- i.e. they're not easy to find).

Yawn.

How's the ABA's review of the U. of ILL. Law's accreditation status going? Would like to know the odds of even getting a chance at Small Law.

25,

I received 2 offers from mid-sized firms in DC. Neither was an opening posted on some job board. I actually had to go out and network. Imagine that.

---3

18, that was AWESOME! 18, FTW!

Making partner in a small firm is not easy, unless you can make it rain.

28,

Don't frighten these young (former) BigLaw associates with notions of "networking" and/or "rainmaking." These are skills they haven't had the opportunity to develop!

14, 12 here, I wish you congratulations. My experience was the opposite, midlaw salary/resources and Biglaw expectations in *every* regard. So, so, soooooo glad I was able to get out on my own terms.

This ship be sailing...

Avalon is extremely boring - even with Kash and the 4th of July

I am not sure whether biglaw's loss is midlaw's gain (after all, midlaw is losing its marginal clients to small law and in-house), but I can make two observations (i) the WSJ article was essentially a puff piece and devoid of actual content beyond a few tendentious anecdotes and (ii) biglaw should not be doing work that seven-person shops are capable of doing in any economy--biglaw is good at big work (M&A, securities offerings, bet-the-company litigation), we should not be deluded into thinking we are brighter than the small shops--we just have greater bandwidth.

12 - Nickel and diming by making you pay for things that most other people pay for? You have the audacity to bitch about having a six figure salary and being expected to:
A) pay for your meals and transportation while not on business travel;
B) not use an expense account to pad your income;
C) be forced to actually DO work becuase you can't pawn it off on underpaid admin support

You're a tool. But that's just my two cents.

Are you aware that a kid is running Blank Rome?

35, that "greater bandwidth" is not so important anymore. Why hire a Skadden partner who comes with a fixed number of 20 junior associates at $400/hr, when you can hire a midlaw partner of equal competence with one or two junior associates and the ability to ramp up to 18 domestic/foreign staff/contract attorneys at $100/hour?

Maybe one day law students and biglaw associates will come to the realization that bigger has nothing to do with better, just like people who used to work for Pan Am, GM, US Steel, etc.

I love my midlaw experience. I do wish that I made more money. My Biglaw friends (who still have jobs) make 165K more than me but generally hate their jobs. I traded money for quality of life, job security and more interesting work. Since I left Biglaw 5 years ago, I have to say that I think the trade off was worth it.

While I agree that at least Mid-law isn't firing people (much at least), there's not a lot of hiring either. Haven't heard/seen much of any real hiring of the mid-law firms in my city, but I have heard that many firms are seeing Biglaw fire/layoff/freeze/cut salaries and get to use that as an excuse to limit raises, even though there's been no work slow down here.

Midlaw isn't necessarily that secure.

28 - Most of the best jobs aren't ever posted on a job board.

That's one of the easiest ways to weed out the dingleberries who aren't willing to work to get the job and you know they won't work once they're on a job.

25 nailed it

38 - Spot on. Big law = bloated law. They are the SUV's of the legal profession. Lot's of people are stuck with them but they are looking for, and moving to, better alternatives.

Sadly, layoffs in Midlaw are a lot more common than anyone wants to admit. A lot of associates are having trouble finding hours and most partners are too busy doing the work that should be done by a 2nd year to care. Then, instead of owning up to the fact that associate hours are down, Midlaw firms disguise layoffs based on hours as "performance based."

Not all midlaw shops are the same, but, where I work, it's a pretty humane life. Yeah, you make less money, but, unless its crunch time, you usually get more time to yourself.

However, don't fall for the BS that the expectations are somehow lowered. If you go to a midlaw shop that does biglaw level work, you will have the same expectations. Corporate clients demand the same responsiveness and level of service from midlaw shops.

Entiltlement mentality will get you nowhere. Whether it be in BigLaw or MidLaw. The rules of engagement have changed forever. You're going to have to network your ass off to find a job these days. And once you do, then you're going to have to work your ass off to serve the client in whatever fashion called upon by your superiors AND make sure you are continually improving your technical skill set AND learn what goes into becoming a good business developer over time. So in a nutshell, the realities of how the business world works have hit the legal profession. Deal with it. Either that or marry rich.

BigLaw has higher starting salaries than MidLaw, but that's about it. More senior associates make almost the same in MidLaw as in BigLaw. Same for most partners, other than the true rainmakers. In MidLaw, rainmakers make less than BigLaw rainmakers, but not a lot less. Only an idiot would choose BigLaw over MidLaw, but then nobody ever said that young lawyers were anything other than idiots. Go idiots.

Ripped from the WSJ Blog hours after they already reported on this

brilliant reporting, 49. i didn't notice the link to the wsj in the post.

46 - word up!

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Agree with 45.

25

MysTTTal is just reporting on what a few firms told the WSJ reporters (per today's article). This post was spot-on, in that mid-sized firms are the only firms in a position to hire right now.

It is perhaps because you are relying on these "job postings" that you cannot find that you are unemployed? Get out there and meet people - networking is generally how we "small" firms find new associates.

What about the quality of the work though? Can Midlaw firms provide the same quality of work to clients as Biglaw? Are their lawyers as talented?

55 - as talented as first years who bill high rates and whose only experience is in doc review? same quality of work as the staff and contract attorneys perform for Biglaw? Except for the very largest clients with unlimited budgets who can afford substantial partner billing, Midlaw provides more.

35 and 38--the reason that the partner with 2 associates at a midlaw firm can't do the same job as a team of 40 lawyers from a biglaw firm working around the clock to close a deal is one of physics. I am not saying (as some in this thread are) that biglaw is smarter or better than midlaw or small law (it can be, but it can also be worse and is usually about the same), but the around the clock work ethic and "overlawyering" that people complain about on this blog (usually because they are overworked) can have genuine benefits to clients who want large and complex transactions done quickly and well or large, complex litigations fully and carefully counseled. There is a place in the world for midlaw and for biglaw. If midlaw is getting some of the work that might once have gone to biglaw, more power to it, but it is a leap too far to assert that midlaw can handle all of the transactions or cases that a biglaw firm, with many more resources, can.--35

57 is mostly right. The problem is, there really isn't enough of that type of work to go around to support the current compensation model. And we are seeing the effect of that right now.

Let's be honest- biglaw isn't what it used to be. Many of these firms would hire anyone as an associate a few years back. Why pay $400 per hour for some kid who barely distinguished himself from his bar failing law review classmates at the 83rd best law school in the country when you can get better service at a lower price from a more experienced midlaw associate? That kind of excess won't fly in times like these, nor will inflated salaries for underqualified associates.

Is it safe to say that some big law firms were once midlaw firms? I mean they all had to start somewhere. Perhaps we'll see some new "biglaw" firms come out of this.

Is it safe to say that some big law firms were once midlaw firms? I mean they all had to start somewhere. Perhaps we'll see some new "biglaw" firms come out of this?

Midlaw dominates the Philly market. With big firms like Blank Rome collapsing, new firms like Eckert Semen will rise to power.

47 - word up.

Is Heller midlaw?

60/61 - Midlaw person here whose firm tried desperately to push its way to biglaw. Now we're stuck with tons of empty space at a very expensive cost, extremely overstaffed with luxury positions, ie: marketing, strategists, project managers, IT that could replace all of IBM, etc, etc. I think it's safe to say that those who made the major decisions to try and keep up with the big boys are wondering what the F they were thinking right about now.

I work in midlaw in Boston. Nobdy is hiring right now.

Basically midlaw means a 50% reduction in pay for about a 20% reduction in hours from Biglaw.

Is that worth it? I don't think so. I would rather work 300 more hours a year and make an extra $80,000 a year.

65 - What market are you in?

"Let's be honest- biglaw isn't what it used to be. Many of these firms would hire anyone as an associate a few years back."

No shit. A few years ago CWT was hiring people from SUNY Buffalo with nothing on their resume as long as they were hot females.....

I'm at a Midlaw firm in a big state. For reference, we pay $100K to start, with a low billable minimum and if you bill 2000 hours you're a hero. Partnership is harder than it used to be, but it's still possible to make it as a "service partner" (i.e. without a book of business of your own), as well as by having a book. We've done a handful of legitimate performance layoffs, but no economic layoffs. We would hire people in a few highly specific practice areas right now if we could find attorneys with relevant experience. We have different target clients than Biglaw does, and our rates and pay reflect it. It's a different world than Biglaw, but it's a good place to be.

68 - Ha! I noticed that a while back - it stuck out like a sore thumb. Funny how they're all gone now, eh?

- ex-Buffalonian (but definitely not SUNY)