did they latham the first years?

Another firm relegating itself to second-tier status, even for atlanta.

Troutman... all the powers of a trout, but he's a man.

Mystal, do you ever get worried that during one of your feeding frenzies you might inadvertently eat your hand off?

trash firms are really show their dark side ITE

FURST!!!!!

Good stuff, 4.

T6 students will avoid Troutman Sanders

4 = lol.

your mom keeps on coming

Here is an interesting strategy that I am thinking about using during the upcoming OCI. At some point during the conversation, I am going to volunteer that I will work for less than the going 1L associate rate. That's right, I am going to effectively get a leg up on the competition my making myself more economically viable. Maybe a 25% to 30% cut. I think that this will show firms how dedicated I am and make them more willing to give me a shot. Seriously, what do I have to lose?

On the bright side, these associates are being shown "hybrid tough love." At the present time, a growing amount of partners on the management committee are considering the following salary structure (I encourage peer and non-peer firms to adopt it):

Billable Hours: 2,200=$160K (Pro-rated bonus for exceeding 2,200 billables).
2,100-2,199=$150K
2,000-2099=$140K
1,900-1,999=$130K
1,800-1,899=$120K
>1,799= You're Fired!

Pro bono hours will not be factored into the billable requirements. The 10% cuts won't be enough. We need to stabilize our losses and preserve our PPP.

Brooklyn Decker is hot.

PE is a grade-A wanker.

12= This is what the employer hears:

"I am desperate for a job and insecure of my own abilities. I am not worth the salary you are offering and can only compete by working for less"

major FAIL

PE, why does a man of your means bother with a Discover Card? A Gold Card makes more sense or at minimum a Visa or MasterCard. Are you trying to be a man of the people?

13: I wholeheartedly support PE's proposed pay structure.

-12

12, you will look like a fool. No firm will hire just one associate on a lower pay scale, it has to be firm-wide based on some criteria. Your suggestion just shows desperation and lack of forethought. Of course most associates/law students would prefer to work for a % than be unemployed, that's a given.

13, I agreed with you up to the point about not including pro bono hours. This suggestion bucks the current trend of attorneys realizing what good they can do for fellow Americans, and of firms encouraging such activities. I know the bottom line is important, but perhaps your scenario could be altered such that 50%, or some other percentage, of pro bono hours would be counted.

Troutmask Replica

Troutmask Replica

12, go for it buddy. 70% of something is better than 0% of nothing. Let the haggling begin!

It's nice to see PE came out unscathed from his heated dispute with the Chilmark Sheriff on Martha's Vineyard over the wholesomeness of nude frolics with similarly minded pasty white elderly men shielded behind sand dunes in a public beach frequented by families.

In other words, sucking on someone else's knob in a public beach even if shielded by sand dunes is a major no-no on MV.

(1) Responding to changing market conditions for associate compensation . . . (2) These reductions will not be made across the board but will be based on each associate's individual performance evaluation.
__________________________________________

How does (2) follow from (1)?

12, that is a great idea. it shows an understanding of the basics of supply and demand. You're not in a unionized industry, so why should many people be unemployed while the few who are employed are paid at an artificially high wage?

Troutman Sanders = Roxana

What kind of doublespeak is that spokesperson's comment? A reduction in the "amount of associate pay that was budgeted for Aug. 1-Dec. 31, 2009"??

Why not just say 10% cut starting Aug 1, applied individually? Are they trying to make us think that come 1/1/10, they're back to prior amounts? Puh-lease.

And literally, the statement can be read to say that it was the budget that was adjusted, not the pay. Moronic writer.

At this point, it seems to be a given that all firms at or below a particular level will reduce their associate salaries. The question now is, where exactly is that level?

12 - the key is to let them know you're interested in the experience regardless of pay. Don't actually offer it up, and acknowledge that a firm would have a tough time paying different peeps different amounts if in the same context. But say "hell, I'd work for whatever is enough to live on just to get the experience that I know my classmates won't be getting if they can't get a job."

Then go flip burgers anyway, since none of you are getting legal jobs before 2012. Sorry.

It's the Trout Signal! Quick! To the Troutcave!

Nanananananana....

19, if you want to do good for society to make yourself feel better, do it on your own time/dime. Why should a firm pay you a fat salary for what is essentially "volunteering"? How is it charity or altruism if you feel entitled to be paid for it?
Imagine if an engineer asks Microsoft for a raise because he's been spending his down time installing computers for free for inner city kids. Laughable.

12 - you would positively have an advantage over all of the other DBs by offering your service at a lower rate. This is really what the employer would hear, "I am excited by this opportunity and am secure in my own abilities to perform the work needed to be done. I am worth the typical 'market' salary , but given the current econmic situation, I will be a team-player and work for less"

major WIN

Weren't Atlanta salaries bloated to begin with? Sure, they never made the $160k leap, but even $145 seemed like a lot for Atlanta. They had much more compression as well. Nonetheless, it isn't surprising seeing firms based out of second-tier markets cutting salaries. In good times they were making bank off of the overflow work from New York, but what the hell did they think was going to happen when we weren't in boom times anymore? Didn't they realize that a good chunk of their really lucrative work was overflow?

#12 has the best idea that I have read around here in a long time. Why go without work or take a job that you consider an insult when you can get your foot in the door at a rate that reflects the current market? Firms would welcome a situation where their prospective work force is volunatrily taking less money.

#12 has the best idea that I have read around here in a long time. Why go without work or take a job that you consider an insult when you can get your foot in the door at a rate that reflects the current market? Firms would welcome a situation where their prospective work force is volunatrily taking less money.

I have given a name to my pain, and it is Troutman.

12 - That will probably work for small/mid size firms. No large firm, even a regional firm, will consider that offer, or you after you have made that offer.

Considering most transactional associates are billing around 1000 for this year, its not a bad reduction for them. Sucks for anyone who billed as through it were a regular market.

27 makes an interesting point. Anything more in the details of the cut or just poor writing? Any TS associates able to share?

- not 27

This comment is addressed to post no. 12.

The current generation of plebes entering/graduating law school could learn a lot from your initiative. Bravo, well done young man. Do not listen to the narrow minded thinking of posters (e.g., 16). Such myopic thinking cretins will wind up working as paralegals (w/ JD) at non-peer firms making peanuts while you advance your career.

What time should I stop studying the day before the bar exam? I'm thinking no later than 3pm.

Also, should I look over old questions the morning of the exam, or is it better to spend that time sleeping and show up rested? Thanks for any advice.

31,

19 here... I don't believe that many firms highlight their pro bono activities simply because it lures top law students interested in pro bono work (I know you didn't say that, but that's the only other explanation). Thus, it's not just me, a lowly rising 3L (with an offer, I might add), who believes in the importance of pro bono work at law firms. Upper-echelon management at many firms also apparently share an altruistic view.

That said, many firms have unwritten rules about associates accruing a decent amount of "unbillable" time. Why not let the associate do good for those who need it, improve the firm's image, and get paid for some % of that time?

I should add that Microsoft spends PLENTY on charity work that doesn't help their bottom line, so that argument is a bit silly, no? Many of the biggest and best corporations, and many of the biggest and best law firms have made the decision that charity work is important, for a variety of reasons.

27 - They phrased it the way they did because some associates will have more than a 10% cut. The total cut will be 10%, with some getting more and some getting less.

27 - They phrased it the way they did because some associates will have more than a 10% cut. The total cut will be 10%, with some getting more and some getting less.

27 - It's phrased that way because some associates will get more than a 10% cut and others will get less. The total associate compensation paid by the firm will be 10%. So for some Troutman associates, this is worse than the 10% cuts at Kilpatrick.

43/44 - thanks. That is way harsh for the biggest losers.

13/PE - So, if I bill more than 1,799 hours, I'm fired?

Mystal, did you get your period yet?

41- it's whatever works for you. I agree that you should take it easy the day before the exam and try to do something you consider relaxing. On the day of the multiple choice, I just did about 15 or so questions to warm up.

How you like me now?

in answer to 27, since Troutman has never paid lockstep beyond first year, they will continue to pay top performers (or preferred associates, in reality) high rates, especially if they are in the busier practice groups (labor and employment; environmental) while cutting the already-below-market salaries of those in slower groups (corporate, to the extent there are any associates left there, etc.). The firm has always been extremely hush-hush about pay, and likes to schedule hundreds of 10-minute meetings where they tell the associates what they will be making over the next year - or next 5 months, in this case.
As for 2010 salaries, since there's no lockstep and no guarantee of a raise at all, they will probably just keep rates static - not cut them further absent a need to, but not raise them beyond the August-December 2009 levels. They'll also schedule hundreds of 10-minute meetings about those.
My big question is whether the Chairman delivered the news - the joke when I was there was always that Bob Webb only delivered good news, so if he was the speaker at a "big meeting," it was a raise but if not, look out!

41 - You should probably stop now as you will more than likely fail.

Love,

UVA2L

BigLaw associates, especially first and second year associates, even in the primary markets, have been overpaid for years. Any halfway decent paralegal can do document review. Any fully trained monkey can do document review for that matter. And when BigLaw increased the salaries of junior associates in the secondary markets to match the salaries in the primary markets, well, that was just plain stupid. Now they are paying the price and taking away what should never have been given anyway. How many BigLaw associates actually make partner in BigLaw anyway. Probably only a small percentage, because most are only there to make money for a few years and pay off law school loans. How many of the BigLaw associates wanted to be lawyers for any other reason than money anyway? And how many just went to lawschool as another way to postpone being a grown up for a few more years.

a pay cut AFTER they hired an entire IP group... AWESOME!

53 acts like there is something wrong with postponing life for a few years and then making bank doing brainless work for another 5.

Associates who don't make money for the partners are worth keeping, plain and simple. It's past time for firms to recognize this by firing the dead wood. More importantly, though, is the fact that BigLaw simply won't have the available billiable hours for hoards of associates to make the grade. The future holds fewer jobs in BigLaw and large firms, along with lower pay and longer hours. Welcome to the real world you little bastards.

Critical typo at the outset, 56.

I really do not understand law firms. They pay summer associates a rate that coincides with what they would make as a first-year associate (almost 130k) and most of the time only 10-30% of them are hired anyways. So they spend a boatload of money,dinners, and other events for college students to do menial work. Why are these "internships" priced at such a high wage when they don't even know if they will or be able to hire them. For Instance, TS has a full summer associate class and in a likelyhood only 10% will be offered a job. In essence they have wasted 90% of these law students time and spent 90% of money that could have been used to cover the associates (who are experienced and billing hours) shortfall. Not to mention these students who are turned down have no chance of finding something else since the firm who recuits them doesn't want them even if they are a rockstar. If you have a summer program you should be decent enough to know you have jobs available. Troutman's intense need to preserve image is going to sink them and cause a lot of associates to leave when the economy bounces.

Back in the day when I was in law school, a summer internship was not a guaranteed offer whether it was from BigLaw or any other law firm. The summer was to determine whether the summer associate "fit" with the culture of the firm and could do the work. A summer associate could expect, and did, substantive work, even in BigLaw. And the summer associates did not make the same as they would expect to make upon the becoming a full-time associate. Nowadays all BigLaw seems to care about with its summer associates is that the firm does not lose its "reputation". And now that is rolling back as the economy changes. And lw students and junior associates who do not remember the early and mid 1990s whine and moan, as if getting (and keeping) a high paid job doing monkey work is their right. Sorry people, that is not the way it was and it not that way now. In flush times it just looked like that because BigLaw and other firms expected a high amount of attrition in their junior lawyers. And now they are having to adjust to that, and even if your performance is good or even great, if the hours are not their in your practice area, or if the law firm no longer wants to keep a practice area going in a particular office, then bye-bye associate. And it is not just junior associates, it is senior associates and non-equity partners as well. So get over yourselves, re-invent yourselves, and quit whining.

A 10% pay cut doesn't even seem to bother people anymore.

How much do they charge for waxing on the UES?

At least Obama is going to lower taxes.

If you are overpaid anyway and have the risk having no job at all, receiving only 90% of your too high salary is better than nothing. Just think, less taxes to pay. I would not be surprised, if this economy continues to struggle for another year (not out of the realm of possibility), if salaries are adjusted down even further.

Does anyone in BigLaw not remember that the firms gave random "market adjustments" at least twice between 2006 and 2008. At least at the firm in which I work, the first market adjustment was in late 2006 and was a 10% increase for being an associate and breathing, and the second was in late 2007, early 2008 of 15% again for just being an associate and breathing. The BigLaw firms made a bad decision to do that to keep pace with each other, and now the firms and the associates are paying the price. Perhaps when BigLaw salaries get back to the realm of reality, the layoffs will stop, and hiring can begin again.

62 - the stimulus tax cuts don't count? Or do you just think those aren't enough to outweigh increases coming along in 2-3 years?

41,

Studies show that smart people process information in their subconscious while they sleep. So, intense study with restful sleep over a period of time works best for people who are smart.

People of limited intelligence have no choice but to cram up into the moment of leaving the Trout Cave, hoping against hope that some morsel of information will somehow cling to their short term memory and get them over that seventy percent level.

Hope this helps.

66 (for now)

Another firm follows the lead of Atlanta's WorsTTT Law Firm© McKenna Long & Aldridge.

The FIRST firm to cut salaries in the race to the bottom of the South! We are talking sub-Pensacola, FL quality lawyering!

Troutman is merging with McKenna and the Atlanta office of Fish & Richardson to create the shitiest firm in the Southeast. The newly minted firm will be called Long TroutFish. Starting salary will be the prorated wage of a Harvard-area racial-sensitivity training instructor. Bonuses will be earned by picking up sovereigns off the floor as you dance the burlyque for drunken partners. Vacations will be to the third-ring of hell where Bobby Brown and the other lost souls are eternally "dooty digging."

the firm will be closing it's doors in Nov. 2009

13 PE

If you apprehend basic math and english--
you would realize that everyone would be fired--except
those billing 1799 hours or less.

Brilliant, cogent, quantitative analysis.

68, FTW! I lol'ed.

I feel sorry for the poor attorneys who came on to Troutman because of the Ross Dixon merger that took place effective January 1, 2009. Talk about EXCELLENT timing! Maybe they will unmerge, and Troutman will divest itself of all the offices that got it in this mess anyway.

Hope and change you can believe in.

72- No shit- Ross Dixon & Bell was an extremely efficient, smaller firm- then those ball-busting bullshit artists at Troutman convinced them to merge. The short-term benefits were large salary increases for the former RDB attorneys- then months later the ugly truth began to spill out and everyone saw that Troutman was mismanaged and losing business and basically needed to merge with and steal RDB's business to keep going at their present rate- now they have RDB's book of business and are laying off some of the RDB attorneys who helped bring the business over and forcing the others to take salary cuts. This is Gordon Gecko's wet dream.

Troutman wants to play with the big boys, but it is really only a little boy dreaming. NOBODY knows or cares who Troutman is, except perhaps those who work there. And a few of their clients. The firm they acquired in NY to have a NY office is not one of the players as far as I am aware...it was a Jenkins Gilcrest throw away that was lucky enough not to have been totally merged when that firm got into trouble.

Troutman actually wants to play with little boys...far worse in my opinion.

76 - perhaps you are correct. Most of the associates who remain are men (boys). Most of the partners are men (boys). And from what I have heard from friends who were there, the majority of those laid off were women. Just heresay, but makes one wonder.

Troutman Sanders staff, associates, and partners should consider working in the strip bars in Atlanta; there's steady income to be made there although I don't know that people will pay to have fat naked partners prancing about.

~Sutherland 4th Year

Troutman is merging with Sutherland and the Atlanta office of Fish & Richardson to create the shitiest firm in the Southeast. The newly minted firm will be called Southern TroutFish. Starting salary will be the prorated wage of a Harvard-area racial-sensitivity training instructor. Bonuses will be earned by picking up sovereigns off the floor as you dance the burlyque for drunken partners. Vacations will be to the third-ring of hell where Bobby Brown and the other lost souls are eternally "dooty digging."

78 - you've obviously never been to the Clermont Lounge, where all the fatty Sutherland chicks be hanging out.

30: laughed out loud. Good work.

What the f_ _ _ is a Troutman Sanders? Is it related to Salmonlady Dirters?

WTF are the comments?

Bob Webb's definition of market = how can I screw TS associates over as much as possible.

84, couldn't agree more. the makeup of Bob Webb's "market" changes depending on what he wants to do. When it's market raises, his market is whatever Atlanta firms haven't raised yet, and when it's decreases, it's any firm with a heartbeat. We were always told that Atlanta firms were their market, but I haven't seen Sutherland or King and Spalding cut salaries. And Alston only cut $5K. So what is this "market".

And another thing, why on earth would Webb emphasize that this wasn't an economic decision and that the firm is doing so well? That's just a slap in the face. Basically, he's saying that Troutman is taking the opportunity to screw its associates rather than doing it because it's necessary. What a complete asshole!

85, you're right. Firms define market just about the same way that Scalia defines originalism. It's just a [hardly] shrewd way to justify whatever is the easiest way out. I can guarantee you when it comes to raising to "market" billing rates, they'll redefine market to include whoever is charging the highest rates (regardless of how much they pay their associates).

Bob Webb's ego is a huge problem for Troutman, and the firm's future is directly tied to how long Webb stays in office. Webb has managed to run off some high value partners, and I predict the exodus continues as long as he remains at the helm. He's full of shit about the "market" cause for the pay cuts. Ego in the way again, as he realizes the folly of riains starting salaries so high. This cut has clearly been in the works for some time. (Remember in February when he said this round of layoffs was it\?) The firm continues its stealth layoffs, and I'd watch for more this fall in connection with the annual review process. The ship be sinking.....

How far has ATL fallen to pay any attention to a g.d. mid-level firm like Troutman Sanders. Seriously.

Get back to fucking work. Yes, we have IP logs. Yes, we have keystroke logging. So..... GET. BACK. TO. FUCKING. WORK.

PE is a law student or a first year with time on hands.

I'm not.

So,

GET. BACK. TO. FUCKING. WORK.

And, as long as I'm slumming,

DON'T. FUCKING. TALK. TO. ME. IN. THE. ELEVATOR. DON'T.

No one at Troutman Sanders should be responding to this thread- didn't you get the message at the beginning of yesterday's conference call? the all knowing dictator has spoken and free speech has been outlawed- shhh!!!!

89- worried you're going to get laid off next?

Good eye, 70. I was wondering if anyone was going to comment on PE's math illiteracy.

PE , resorting to quoting Glengary Glenn Ross is a sign you are running out of good material- going forward, have 4-5 beers before you post- it will help you retain your edge.

Word on the street is that some associates that are hard workers/popular with the partners only got hit for a very small amount. Others took big cuts. Considering that partners with huge books of business are leaving every week, and that most of the associates there hardly have anything to do, though, I don't think there will be too much complaining.

I get the opinion that the "across the board" 10% is not necessarily accurate. I have heard that many people received cuts of at least 15%, some 20%.

I get the opinion that the "across the board" 10% is not necessarily accurate. I have heard that many people received cuts of at least 15%, some 20%.

Unless an equal amount of people are receiving 0% and 5%, I simply don't think the scales will balance.

"what the f_ _ _ is a troutman sanders?" he's the lesser known brother of colonel sanders and the founder of kentucky fried fish. For some reason the biggest kff store located in Atlanta

I’m tired of partners in big firms assuming that associates are just overpaid, money hungry, whiners. I have been very active in recruiting in big firms and one thing I hear from associates is that they would take less money for lower billable hours. Yet big firms keep raising their rates and giving salary hikes. Do you really think associates benefit from the extra $15,000 pay for a 150 hour increase? Do the math at $300 an hour (on average) that brings in $45,000 in revenue. After taxes associates see maybe 10k, while this greatly increases partner profits. Also, it drives me nuts to hear senior partners (who graduated law school 20+ years ago) whine about what they made for a starting salary. Did they graduate law school with $140,000 in student loans? On its website, U-Penn lists its law school tuition in 1980 at $6000 a year. Tuition today is over $46,000. That’s more than a 700% increase! Were those partners starting at $20,000 a year? I don’t think so. And don’t even get me started about the billable hour requirements back then. Stop blaming the associates that need a high salary simply to pay the cost of their student loans. Finally, get over yourselves big firms! If you expect associates to devote 2300 billable hours + 500 hours in administrative hours to your firm you better pay a hefty salary. You are essentially buying someone’s entire life. Be sure to factor in the cost of a spouse, their kids and any type of personal hobbies that they will not have time to enjoy.

I'm so disappointed in the RDB partners for merging with TTTroutman. They should be ashamed.

- RDB associate turned Troutman associate.