There is no such thing as an ivy league law school.

Future Elie, I haven't liked any of your previous posts, but that First made me laugh.

"A law degree, even from a good school, does not entitle you to a six-figure income."

Hear, hear. It's about time the self-entitled realize this.

4,

I think it is "Hear here..." Sorry to quibble.

Small shops are where you actually practice law, make lower pay despite working long hours, but gain valuable experience. Biglaw is where you kiss-up to the partners, shuffle papers around, make alot of cash, but learn zero.

Having done the opposite move over the last couple of years (the final jump being due to a merger), I can say that I prefer the informality of a smaller firm. My experience in SmallLaw was much less structured (I didn't have a billable hours goal), and revenue driven, and as a result, the quality of life was somewhat different. The difference in pay is an issue, but something that you take with what should be a more relaxed atmosphere. For all the good small firms out there, there are the horrible ones with former BigLaw partners at the helm proving my feeling about many of them that you can take the attorney out of BigLaw, but you can't take BigLaw out of the attorney. End of the day, suck it up - you have a job.

The Biglaw view of life, and pay, has always been an aberration. With only 1 percent of lawyers practicing in firms of 101 attorneys or more, and 70 percent of lawyers practicing in firms of 10 or fewer, small firm pay, hours, and so forth are the norm. As a former small firm practitioner (before entering academia), I can tell you that 60 hours a week is normal, and 95K would have been nice.

5, No it's actually "hear, hear."

Simple math: at small law firms, you bill at a much lower rate, and so if you bill the same hours, you still will make alot less money. You can't make up the difference of 40%-50% lower billing rates by billing only 10% more hours.

working in a small firm sucks. unless you want to start your own shop someday, it's just not worth it. go into consulting, marketing, PR, porn. anything else. you will make peanuts and have to take abuse from people who are neither bright nor wealthy.

I just graduated from a T25 and had a job offer at a 30-lawyer firm in flyover country. I got deferred, then rescinded. Anyone who tells you to "look outside NYC" or "consider smaller firms" has tried neither. My ex-firm doesn't have any work, either, and 1.5 floors of a building can leave you just as overleveraged as anyone else if you're small enough. Yes, there are a few genuine boutiques doing high-end work. But as a general rule, "smaller" just means "less money and fewer exit options." Ask how I know.

Sign me up for biglaw then!

You work the same or more at a small firm, and make much less. It is also more difficult to make partner, because many firms tend to have fewer institutional clients. It is an eat-what-you-kill environment. In exchange, you generally obtain more experience.

5 pwned

My experience has been about the same as the post tipster, but trying to keep some perspective: laid off from a $160,00/year big law gig (second year associate), hired at a very small law, still required to bill/work about the same number of hours (maybe a few less per week), but making more like $50k with terrible benefits (for example, 5 days of personal days - i.e.sick/vacation combined). But I'm working as a lawyer in 2009. Sure, its almost impossible to make my student loan payments each month and house/feed myself, but I'm still a lawyer damnit! (And I'm not being that sarcastic, I am grateful to have a job but, wow, its been a long fall down)

The statement identified as commonly held wisdom by this former big law associate reveals that this person must have been very inexperienced-- first or second year at the most. Obviously small firms demand more of a junior associate because such associates have more responsibility. This idiot probably also thinks that once you make partner, you just sit back and smoke cigars and develop business while the associates put in all the long hours. Why are junior associates being laid off in droves? Because they do little to no real work, yet are paid artificially high salaries. You all should be upset you are losing such a windfall.

10's thoughts on the math is correct. Also, because there are fewer partners, they run a tighter ship more like small businessman. They feel the weight of every dollar spent on you, where the burden is shared in biglaw.

Suffolk Law is the Bunker Hill Community College of Boston law schools.

16,

If you had the credentials to get a biglaw job, you'll be out of that sh!thole in 2 years.

Did lat just call himself talented? HA!

Here is the upside of SmallLaw: Flexibility. At a large law firm, it is damn near impossible to do anything except represent huge corporations using relatively standard billable hour arrangements. Forget representing entrepreneurs or startups using creative billing arrangements or contingency work. Also, there are far less conflicts of interest or other lawyers to block your representation of new clients, as is the case in BigLaw.

20 -

From your lips to God's ears.

-16

Northeastern School of Law is the Suffolk Law of Boston law schools.

If you go to small law, try not to get pigeonholed in a crappy practice area, like insurance coverage.

@Lat, FN1 - Started in state government in the mid-Atlantic/northeast in 2008 right after passing the bar, pulling in $62K. But don't forget the benefits - 23 vacation days + 12 paid holidays a year, no billables, 9-to-5 schedule, no coming in on weekends, and yes, people here schedule work around vacations, not the other way around.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/lgl/1339967848.html

$650/week, health insurance after 6 months.

@ 6 -- I'd rather be ignorant and rich than brilliant and poor!

I recently joined a less-than-ten lawyer firm after being laid off as a mid-level biglaw associate.

My new billing rate is approximately half of my old billing rate.

I have no billable hour goal. The firm compensates me based on time billed. Billing 1600 hours a year puts in the high 100K's.

10's math leaves out an important point: big law firms have big overheads. My new firm has none of the trappings of a big law office... no art on the wall, no coffee machine in the kitchen, etc. I work in a transactional practice where I rarely see clients face to face, and when I do it is at their place of business.

A properly run small law firm can charge half the rates of biglaw and make just as much profit. I'm lucky enough to be at a place where some of that is kicked my way.

recent grad of a law school in a major market but a bit outside the top 25.

i am at a firm with 12 attys, most with biglaw experience and many with t14 degrees. they are overworked right now, and i am working my ass off, but its not always like this. when i was clerking here, there were times where i went weeks without an assignment.

pay is fine (95k base with on demand salary reviews and from what i am told if i keep billing at this rate my bonus will be significant). also, i assure you that my billing rate is not half that of my biglaw counterparts. I was at $220 as a law clerk.

Cosigning 3

Your source makes me sick. $95K is "the shaft" and "just enough to stay afloat"? Are you aware that the median household income nationwide is $50K? That an income of $95K puts you in the top 20% of income earners? That the government considers $11K (for a one-person household) to be above the poverty level, that is, what the government thinks people need to "stay afloat."

For what it's worth: the partners in your small firm probably make a hell of a lot less than the partners at your biglaw firm; in fact, the salary disparity between partners and associates at a small law firm is not as great as that at a law firm. In other words, they're getting shafted too. But unlike you, they're not being spoiled brats about it.

Your source makes me sick. $95K is "the shaft" and "just enough to stay afloat"? Are you aware that the median household income nationwide is $50K? That an income of $95K puts you in the top 20% of income earners? That the government considers $11K (for a one-person household) to be above the poverty level, that is, what the government thinks people need to "stay afloat."

For what it's worth: the partners in your small firm probably make a hell of a lot less than the partners at your biglaw firm; in fact, the salary disparity between partners and associates at a small law firm is not as great as that at a large firm. In other words, they're getting shafted too. But unlike you, they're not being spoiled brats about it.

Not all small firms pay less. For example, firms like Susman Godfrey, Keker Van Nest, McKool Smith typically pay higher than a lot of biglaw firms. For a few years Susman Godfrey was paying out 100% bonuses.

This site is mostly trivial garbage and whining, but this post and the following comments, as well as some of the earlier posts about solo practice are pretty insightful given the big picture economics of the practice of law right now. This dumb site might actually be documenting something that turns out to be a big shift in the practice of law, and ultimately legal education. The ship may be sinking, but there is a phoenix rising in the form of attorneys seeking ways to become self-sufficient and professionally resilient. Experience and a tangible skill set are starting to be valued for what they are - capital improvement/income.

Sorry 9,

You're wrong. See "here" (or is it "hear"?):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear

Build your own client base. Big firm, small firm -- that's where the money and security is long term anyway.

I can provide some small firm data from experiences in NC, both in larger NC markets:

1) 25 person law firm, about 8:30 to 6 M-F, almost never worked on weekends, was in the $70's in 2004 but raised to close to $100 a couple of years ago.

2) 7 person law firm, just a little less hours than as in 1). $60k.

3) I know several people in firms between 5-15 attorneys, pay ranges from $40's-high $50's.

I think many people fail to understand the HUGE drop off in pay from big firms and/or firms with 75+ attorneys (and the fact that there are so few firms that have between 5 and 75 attorneys). The number of firms based on number of attorneys is like a U. Pay also drops off a cliff.

Mid-size firms of 100-200 attorneys are a far cry from 6-30 attorney sized operations which generally tend to function far more like a co-op of solo practitioners. True mid-size firms offer the benefits of a full service firm without some of the stresses of big law life. We get paid less, $30 k under NY starting salary for first years, but we have a steady supply of work easily billing 170+ hours a month. The parking lots are empty by 8 pm and for the most part it's a 5 day a week job. It is a great place to be.

I summered at a small firm (7 attorneys) in Los Angeles in 2005 -- a boom market compared to now -- and they were hiring a first year for $60K. The non-partners were expected to bill 46 hours per week -- not sure how they came up with that number but that was the target and it was a weekly target, not monthly or yearly. 46 per week is a good deal higher than any big law firm expects as a minimum.

I have been practicing for over 30 years. The first few years in government, 20 years in small firms (under 10 lawyers) before i moved to Big Law (over 700) as a partner for five years and the last four years in a small firm again. You can make more money in most Big Law settings and anyone who does not want to work hard should not practice law in any firm. But you can make a very good living and have a life in small firm, especially if you develop a niche practice.

29,

Rare, rare exception.

Small firm life is not good as far as I am concerned. The work is not very good, partners are still who want to go to court, there is little training and no support. I went from a big firm to a small firm and the only good thing was that it made me realize I did not need to be an associate at all. I'm back in a big firm now, but not as an associate (nor as a contract attorney - in a staff position). The work is great, I have a work life balance and you get all the perks of a big firm (support staff for instance).

My Biglaw to small firm experience has been much different. I went from a 400+ BigLaw to a 60 lawyer firm (which I think counts as small...). Pay dropped only slightly (starting at $135k for 1st years). My hours are great...bill about 1800/yr, which is certainly manageable. Plus, as other commenters have pointed out, at small firm, you get into court and depositions frequently as a junior person. It is win win. Experience, good hours, not too big a drop in $$$.

14: "You work the same or more at a small firm, and make much less. It is also more difficult to make partner, because many firms tend to have fewer institutional clients. It is an eat-what-you-kill environment. In exchange, you generally obtain more experience."

That's odd, because I see almost the exact opposite regarding partnership tracks.

The big firm model is to have multiple associates per partner. That's what drives the huge PPP. Even billing at $800+ an hour, the partners would not make nearly as much if they didn't have an army of associates billing $450.

Some smaller firms adopt this model, (See e.g. single equity partner firms), but in most smaller firms the vast majority of the firms income comes directly from the partners billables, and they have a much lower ratio of partners to associates, often even 1:1 or less.

Maintaining a firm that has 4-6 associates per equity partner necessarily requires a much narrower partnership track than a firm that has nearly equal numbers. Nearly all the smaller firms I'm familiar with have much more sure partnership tracks than biglaw firms. They may not have formalized a "track" but many more associates turn into partners.

Small firm salary varies widely based on geographic and practice area. At my small firm, I started at $80 and four years later make $150,000. I may a decent bonus and bringing in business entails a monetary reward. I work from 8:30 to 6 and have not spent one weekend in the office.

40,

46 hours a week basically equals 2,400 hours a year. That's $25 per billable. You make less than a janitor.

5, 9, etc. Also see Oyez Oyez.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyez

Speaking as someone who has worked in BigLaw (2X), AM Law 200 firm (1X) and small firms (3X), small firms have better work environments - if you find one that fits you. Comp may be better than big firm - no lockstep, bonus for business generation, etc., more flexibility re personal time and ability to work out of office. But that's not the rule - many small firms are co-ops and sweatshops also. I find that the small firms that try to tell you that they are "not sweatshops" are the ones to watch out for. Generally, take your cue from the partners and the associates when you interview. Because its a smaller environment, you are not going to be able to burrow into your office and avoid people. In BigLaw, I have found complete incompetents who have made their way up the ranks and survived. I find less of it in small firms. But again, you have to be careful.

45,

Where do you see the exact opposite happening? Contracts class? Where do you work?

I work for a small firm and I love it. In 1999, my salary as a first year was $45k. In 2009, my salary is $160k. I receive a bonus at the end of each year which is usually around $15k. I do not have a billable hour requirement, I just need to make sure my work gets done. My hours are roughly 8:30 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Unless I am preparing for trial, I do not work nights or weekends.

Yes, the pay is significantly less than what my Biglaw peers earn, but my lifestyle does not require a big salary (no student loans). If you can swing it financially, I think small firms are a wonderful career option.

I've worked at Mid-Law (180-200 lawyers) and Big-law (400+ lawyers) in the NYC metro area. I can tell you as follows (pre-collapse), in Mid-law I worked generally from 9:30 - 6:30/7, was paid total comp of about half of what I subsequently made at Biglaw (with bonus). At Biglaw I worked generally 10 AM - 8 PM, got car service, free meals and constant agita.

So, for an extra hour (on average) plus sever heart palpitations, you get (or got) twice the pay (in my case). Now, all bets are off as Midlaw and Smalllaw know you have no options and will work your ass off or show you the proverbial door.

28 - Bummer, cause your ignorant and poor. How'd you screw the pooch so badly?

I've worked at Mid-Law (180-200 lawyers) and Big-law (400+ lawyers) in the NYC metro area. I can tell you as follows (pre-collapse), in Mid-law I worked generally from 9:30 - 6:30/7, was paid total comp of about half of what I subsequently made at Biglaw (with bonus). At Biglaw I worked generally 10 AM - 8 PM, got car service, free meals and constant agita.

So, for an extra hour (on average) plus sever heart palpitations, you get (or got) twice the pay (in my case). Now, all bets are off as Midlaw and Smalllaw know you have no options and will work your ass off or show you the proverbial door.

In a small firm the business end is stressful: you are pressed to think like a partner at all times and basically eat-what-you-kill, you are expected to bill like a pre-2007 senior associate, but you're paid like a paralegal. In BigLaw, no doubt that some of you are hanging around your firm with terrible hours waiting for the economy to turn and hoping to survive. No such luxury in a small firm. Simply put: you're either profitable or not. And it doesn't take compllicated PPP spreadsheets or anything to figure it out. Which means your job is never that secure.

But in exchange for your crap pay and job insecurity, you get more experience and meaningful control of cases, and you generally work with much nicer people who have outside lives. The client experience part can be fun but often means dealing with clients who constantly expect cheap legal advice or even free advice because of their "personal relationship" with your firm. Thus, there is, aggravatingly, lots of self-discounting of time that's required to keep people happy. Not fun to work for free, but that's how it can be sometimes.

But you know what? It's a place to work, and I am infinitely grateful for the job. Also, I feel like I have much more insight into how a firm really operates and what you have to do be a productive long-term members. It's just that it's not the answer you may expect or want to hear.

Life can be better in a small firm, but generally not for indebted associates. 12 hit the nail on the head - same risk of layoffs as the big shops, but fewer exit options.

If possible, go to work for a large firm (even if they layoff half your class after 4 months). If not, a small firm can be a good place to learn something about the actual practice of law but expect lowish pay and long hours.

Also, if you ever have hopes of breaking (back?) into biglaw, avoid (low end) insurance defense and (low end) personal injury.

Oh yeah, I feel *so* sorry for the partners in my firm who pull in $60,000 per month, while I get paid $5,000 per month, like the other 10 associates.

2500+ hours for me, too.

I started out at a small firm in NYC. I got 70K, and the most senior associate were making about 150K. The place was deserted by 7pm save for a few rare exceptions (like a really big closing). The place was more flexible with part-time work (some associates were on an 80% schedule with 80% salary), not because of child-care reasons, but because they felt like doing it that way. Then again, it is a trade-off -- the deals weren't as big and exciting, and the support that you have at a big firm (law librarians, recruiting departments, etc.) just don't exist.

10 lawyer Florida firm. Government/regulatory practice. No billable requirement. Tons of client contact (high-end clients with government/legislative issues). Health insurance. No billable requirement. Salary plus bonus comes out to around $130k. Did I mention no billable requirement?

-3rd year enjoying some sunshine.

It sounds like the more relevant inquiry, Lat, is whether mid-sized firms are a viable alternative to BigLaw, and how different the experience is. I'm a 2nd year with a 200-attorney, single-state firm. My salary is $120k, benefits are great, and the hours are usually 9 - 7ish, absent something big going down. You're expected to work hard, but you're also treated like an adult: as long as you get your work done, nobody cares when you're doing it, or for how long. But anybody who expects to make 6 figures for a 40-hour-a-week job is kidding him/herself.

I think a lot depends on the kind of "small firm" you talk about.

I work for a 30 lawyer firm in Boston, generally work 9-6, worked maybe 4-5 weekends over the last year. First year staring salaries are at around 100K and the firm gives associate bonus in the 15-20 range.

Its a pretty good life actually with a lot less stress than my old big firm job.

I graduated an "Ivy League" law schol in the late 60s and went to work for what is now a 1000 lawyer firm. I have worked the past 20+ years in a small firm (10 partners and no associates). The amount of money you take home is based on the number of hours you work, the quality of your clients and the amount of overhead. A small firm should have the advantage of low expenses relative to revenue - but it all depends on the client base

I graduated three years ago from a top 20 law school, in top 20% of my class. I started in biglaw at 160k and quit toward the end of my second year. At that point, I was making $170k and billing anywhere from 150 to 250 hours per month.

I moved to a firm of about 70 lawyers, making $145k. My hours are much better now. I'm billing approx 130/month, although I'm expected to be closer to 150/month. I'll never go back to biglaw.

49,

I'm a 5th year associate at a 46 person firm in a "mid market" area. I'm familiar with several other firms of this size and most of them are structured similarly, with sub 1:1 leverage ratios.

Most larger firms, on the other hand have over 2:1 leverage ratios. I was exaggerating a bit when I said "4-6," that's obscenely high and produces latham like consequences when the work falls off, but 3:1 isn't uncommon at all.

Laid off from 800+ Big Law Shop - first-year attorney.

Now work for firm with less than 10 attorneys. Make $80k/year in SE market and no billable requirement. Still on pace to bill about 1800 hours. Much happier here (though I miss the pay), learning a hell of a lot more, and much better partner prospects in about half the time. My feeling is that most attorneys will work hard no matter where they work. It's just whether that pressure is self-imposed or firm imposed. In BigLaw, it was firm imposed. In small law, its self-imposed, which is pressure I can live with.

1st year lawyer at a PI/Med Mal shop in NYC. Pay is 1/3 of a biglaw associate and vacations require a months advance notice and a week of ass kissing. However, I have tried two cases to verdict, taken more depositions than I can count, got admitted to and argued in federal court and still work most weekends.

My bosses, clear 300K a year at least, take unlimited vacations, and when they are not on trial work roughly 25 hours a week.

In ten years, if all goes well, I'll be in their shoes working some poor newbie lawyer to the brink of insanity.

Big firms are for big city homos and shipwrecks of human beings and small firms are for real people with happy lives.

65,

How difficult--school stats? connections?--is it to land a job like that?

I think small firms basically suck. They are an amalgamation of solo practitioners generally. Eat what you kill is the norm, of course.

Working conditions generally suck because somebody is always looking at an assistant as a personal cost. Many of the lower priced hours one bills are priced for xeroxing or pdfing or running to the post office.

Many offices are lucky if they have air conditioning after hours.

If you are going to be what is essentially a sole practitioner, on many levels it is easier to sit home in your boxer shorts doing everything yourself, but alligning your self with similarly situated people working in slightly different practices.

I am a happy sole practitioner, but I do realize the value of a true 8 hour day. It only takes a few of them to get me through my month.

But I sure would not go into law again!

I'm not sure why firms like Susman and McKool are being bandied about in discussions about "small" or "medium-sized firms." Those firms are small - small sweatshops. They're boutiques who bill out at probably a higher rate than many big firms, and require the same kind of billables as a big firm. However, they don't have the systems in place to train young lawyers like a big firm does (no training mechanisms, no small-ish matters to let young lawyers cut their teeth on), so whatever level of training you go in with you'll stay at for the indefinite future.

I worked at McKool right after I worked at Latham. It was the same other than the lack of bureaucracy (it was more of an autocracy).

7, I was at one of those shops. Biglaw ego/expectations, small law resources. Hours were worse than my biglaw experience. I still shiver when thinking about that place.

If you live in any major metro area (NYC, DC, LA), you need a big law salary to even live in a half decent hood.

I'm a partner at a 150 lawyer regional firm, outside the Northeast. I spent years as an associate and later partner at a firm that ranged from 7-25 lawyers during my time there, usually in the 10-20 range.

The quality of learning experience and assignments young lawyers get is only partially dependent on firm size. The good young lawyers who sieze on to projects and actually want to practice law, get good experience in both cases. The ones who want the salary, the title and the nice office or who went to law school as a way of postponing adulthood, but really don't have their heart in practicing law may hang on for a while in Big-Law or Mid-Law because they are smart (in my firm we've certainly kept our share past their use by date), but they are toast both places in the end. The only difference in small law is they'll get more real experience and if they don't develop will get fired more quickly. The benefit to the small law learning experience is there are fewer people between the young lawyer and the partner to get concrete experience (usually no one). I don't care how experienced an associate is, I care how competent and intuitive he or she is. I've had first year lawyers doing 7-10 year lawyer quality work and six year associates who I wouldn't trust with a no-show deposition appearance. It's not the firm, it's you.

As for lifestyle, this is a hard job no matter where you are - not because of hourly goals but because if you're good, you've got the work to do, and the client (be it the partner or the external client) has service expectations we all have to meet. This is a service industry, and if we don't give good service, we don't have work to do. That often does require 10-12 hour days and weekend availability even if it is only telecommuting.

It all depends on the firm. Not all small firms are < six figures. Of course, "low pay" is relative - if you were earning a bloated $160K (what on earth justifies this kind of salary?), then falling to $100K must be a shock. Of course, if your salary started out more reasonably, you might not be so shocked.

- 1st year associate at small (<10 lawyers) firm pulling six figures and averaging 50 hrs/wk

32: Are you aware that in NYC you have to make 125k a year to be considered "middle class"?

Former DA in NYC, started in 1997 making 35k - started job at 20 person firm in 2001 making low 60's, now making 160k plus bonus (55k bonus last year). Firm requires 1850 billable, but not strict - more hours, larger bonus, but no set structure. No face time, get your work done and hours billed and they dont care what time you get in/leave. You also earn 15% of collected billables for clients you bring in.

Eight-person firm, fourth-year associate, $120K, no minimum. The firm is cheap about some things, generous about others. It's not bad.

There are so many different kinds of "small firms" with many different business models and, therefore, different expectations about hours and compensation.

In the even narrower category of plaintiffs' class action firms, there are relatively small ones (5-20 lawyers) and larger one (20-80). My experience of the larger ones (there are about as many as I can count on my hand) is that they currently pay between $80 and $115k for new attorneys depending on the firm and the city, but frequently their new attorneys are people with at least a couple years experience elsewhere (biglaw, government, public interest).

Their business model is obviously different from small defense boutiques. They also have not been affected by the recession in the same way.

33: Do you have any idea how much debt lawyers have?! You're trying to make comparisons to the median household when the median household doesn't have over $150K of student loans.

Here's my 2 cents: the reason that BigLaw still pays (relatively) well is that the sacrifices that it demands are simply unreasonable to most rational human beings in the long run. Frequently cancelled vacations, lost weekends/holidays and screaming partners are the norm. At SmallLaw, that stuff doesn't fly long-term. People want more out of life than money.

I graduated two years ago and spent one year in BigLaw and the last year in a mid-size regional firm (80 attorneys). My hours are about the same, though there are less emergency fire drills from asshole partners who think it's fun to give you a new project at 5pm on Friday.

The difference is the variety of work. While I'm getting better experience here, I only work for one partner. In BigLaw, I worked for 5-10 different partners, including even more senior associates. So in addition to not getting as much variety, you also have nowhere to go when you partner annoys you or you need a reprieve.

Mid-size Mid-Atlantic firm. $125k @ 1900/yr.

I'm a solo practice in the Northeast. I work about 500 hours a year, with a before tax net of around $350K. Seems about right for me.

Small firm is great if your goal is to get your own clients, not sponge off others. Salary can be small, but if you work and get your own revenue stream, the profits are large.

As a solo, all the profits go to me. Be warned: Long way to the top if you want to rock 'n'roll!

36:

Did you actually follow your own link? 9 wasn't wrong, it was 5.

5 = "hear here"

9 = "hear hear"

36's post: "9 is wrong"

36's link: "hear hear"

79 -- you are an idiot that has obviously never practiced law in any setting -- why don't you comment on things you actually know something about

I am totally confused that anyone thinks it is "here, here" or "hear, here" or "here, hear."

It is "hear, hear."

Good grief.

It's really easy to pound your secretary in the ass when you work in a solo practice, because your secretary is frequently your wife.

2006 grad from T1

10 attorney litigation shop in major market w/ narrow specialization

110 base, bonuses range b/w 10-25k

I basically work 8:30-6:30, no weekends.

lots of good work including court time (trial and motion practice), practice about 50/50 state and federal court

8 lawyer NY litigation boutique. Class of 2007: $170K + 30K bonus. 2100 hours/year. Best career decision I ever made.

82,

Sure.

Evening student who graduated May 2009 from a TTT T school, landed a job at a small (9 attorney) suburban NYC firm 95K/yr, excellent benefits, 830am-630pm average hours in the office, no weekends, no ball breaking.

I've been unemployed since the day I graduated two years ago, because I went to a shitty law school (Tier 2). Haven't had an interview yet this year, even for the <$30k hucksters. Student loan interest accrual and penalties are astounding. Sucks to be me.

Latham screws over first years.

Lat your analogy is flawed. You made less money at an USAO but you probably worked 9 to 5. If you had long hours as well at the USAO then note that. But I cannot imagine you really had biglaw hours at the USAO and ran Underneath Their Robes.

Also someone four years out of law school can get hired at the GS-14 or GS-15 level. In 2003 someone like that in DC could have made $81,602 or $95,987. USAO use a different payscale which appears to have paid you less than what the average DOJ lawyer would have made with a similar level of seniority. http://www.opm.gov/oca/03tables/html/dcb.asp

How does 500 hours translate to grossing $350k? That would mean you are billing $700 an hour, which seems rather high for a solo practitioner.

Further, I bet you'd have to be working another 500 hours to do client pitching/marketing and billing/management.

After overhead like secretarial/paralegal salaries, insurance, taxes, health care, and everything else, you're netting what, $75k after taxes?

6 attorneys, transactional practice, Texas,
4th year associate:
~1700 billable target, 88K base, plus 30% of hours billed (at $250/hr) once I cover overhead allocated to me (about 135K/year+ base salary). I am on track for about 130K this year, but you can make close to 200K if you bust it and bill "big law" style at 2100-2200/year.

95,

If you are only billing 500 hours and spending 500 hours on running the office why would you need a secretary or paralegal?

Many people have touched on this, but there's a huge disparity in small or mid-sized firms. Perhaps the word "boutique" would be helpful; small firms that specialized and high-end enough to be called boutiques have pretty nice pay and quality of life, but there aren't that many jobs there. Other small firms are much different.

I'm at a ~50 lawyer litigation shop on the east coast. They require 2000 hours, and the average last year for associates was probably 2200 or so. For that, we made market salaries (160, etc. in NY) and half-Skadden bonuses. I like it, and the pay for the time we put in is certainly reasonable. That said, my firm is more the exception than the rule in the "small law" world.

I left NYC and a large firm to go to a smaller city and smaller firm. There are <15 lawyers here, and it's one of the city's top shops. The marquee partner here charges no more than $400/hour. My rate is about half that as a junior associate. My billable hour expectation is 1,900/year. I come around 8:30 and leave around 6. I haven't worked on a weekend, and I don't have to think about work when I go home. Oh, also, I make $101,000. The firm has very little overhead and is quite nimble. My conclusion - if you're going to small law, be careful and make sure you choose the right place!

I graduated last year from a top 50 law school and started working for a 30 lawyer firm at six figures (barely) in NYC. I usually work until 7, with occasional late nights and weekends. So 6 figures is possible, but not the norm from what my classmates report.

I think it varies by practice area and whether the "small" firm is a botique shop or just a small sized law firm.

Small firms doing higher-level business litigation, IP and botique firms which are very good at what they do pay well but work you just as hard as BIGLAW.

Smaller firms doing CRAPLaw pay around $50k and can work you very hard or just work you 50 hrs a week.

Virtually no attorney job is 9-5. I've never had even a secretary who only works 9-5.

If you can make over $100K working 40 hours per week for the Federal government, why on earth would you deal with the stress of working for a small private shop? I don't get it.

I switched to a smaller firm and it was the best decision ever. True, the pay is slightly less, but only slightly (about a 15% pay cut). Given that BigLaw is actively cutting associate salaries these days, I'm probably not out all that much. On the upside, I have no billable hour requirement, plenty of time off and flexibility to work from home. I would never go back.

Thank you to the experienced lawyers with decades of experience for your very insightful, helpful comments. Usually reading the comments on ATL is a complete waste of time. Today was a nice surprise. Lat, perhaps you could make a filter for the "flame" insulting comments so readers have the option to view them if they'd like? Maybe a system where readers can flag a comment as a flame?

67 - TTT top 30%, published in law school, got the job from careernet...

applied for about 100 positions before I landed the current gig.

I second 100's comment. I know NYC attorneys who make less than $60K as a junior associate. A number of them graduated from competitive schools. Some of their stories about the hours they have worked, lack of benefits and lack of training make me extremely grateful to be working in government.

102 - because there are THOUSANDS of lawyer-applicants for every fed gov't job out there. Newbies from HYS down to TTTT, deferred associates, senior associates who aren't making partner, partners looking for more time with their family, anyone looking for their weekends or job stability, et al.

Small firms suck. Nuff said. Crap pay, crap attorneys. Working at biglaw doesn't mean you're a better attorney. Just means you are over paid for the type of horse manure you do.

Welcome to shitlaw.

Crappy hours and even crappier pay.

Started at a 20-person boutique in Chicago in 2005, was making a close-to-market base of $125k then (but above-market bonus). This came up to $140k by the time I left two years later. At my V20 in NYC, w

I went to a TTT, top 30%, Moot Court. Graduated in 2005. Clerked for a NJ Appellate Division judge out of law school; then clerked for a State Supreme Court justice in the midwest.

After clerking, I went to work for a small midwestern law firm (6 attorneys, including me). I make $60k base compensation, with a large bonus. Last year I made about $110k with bonus; this year, I will probably surpass that amount.

I work about 2100 hours/year, I do a LOT of "hands on" practice (depositions, motion hearings, trials, etc). I enjoy my practice a lot. The best part about my firm (IMO) is that I can take off whenever I want, as long as my work is done. Also, they pay 15% of my salary + bonus into a Keogh, so I am making out like a bandit in that regard.

Some lawyers don't work by the hour, thus it's possible to make good money for fewer hours. It just depends on what you do and how you do it. Think outside the box if you want to survive in a tough world.

Started at a 20-person boutique in Chicago in 2005, was making a close-to-market base of $125k then (but above-market bonus). This came up to $140k by the time I left two years later. At my V20 in NYC, was making $170k, but laid off two years later (was making $210k by then). Am now in another 20-person boutique, but making $110k (although with quite decent hours). Do miss the moolah, though -- but grateful to have a job in this market.

1st year at small business litigation shop. 75k base salary plus bonus. Love my work, have great mentors. And while obviously I can't bring much business in as a first year, I am certainly laying the groundwork. Unlike some of you pussies, I can't wait to eat what I kill.

Honestly, this thread is useless. Hours and salaries vary wildly depending on the practice area.

You know what would be really helpful? A variety of open threads on different types of small firms. Do one or two threads a day getting people's input on salaries in boutique regulatory firms, other types of transactional, plaintiffs firms, insurance defense, class action boutiques, whatever.

As someone that's focusing my search primarily on small firms, it's been really difficult trying to get a sense of what my salary demands should be. Short of asking my friends how much they make, the information really doesn't exist in any useful form. A variety of open threads focusing on specific practice areas and what people can expect for salaries and benefits would probably be really beneficial to many readers.

This is much more than a simple trade-off between money and hours.

For example, there is a lot to be said for working in a practice area that you enjoy. Some people prefer working the practice areas that only BigLaw firms can do, such ultra-large, sophisticated financial transactions. Others would prefer to do family law, trusts and estates, immigration, etc., which are practice areas that are usually handled in the smalller firms.

Another trade-off is that many locales that lack large law firms typically have significantly lower costs of living. The reduced salary of a small law firm is really only a huge negative if you find yourself in a big, expensive city.

Moreover, in a small law firm you are more likely to meet actual human clients, thereby building up relationships that you can leverage if you ever want to go into business for yourself.

I make 95k as a small law 1st year. I like my work, and I like my co-workers. I'd probably do it for 60k and still be happy.

These comments have been helpful, Lat. Thanks for the post.

I'd love to see what you -- and the commenters -- have to say about biglaw versus federal government work. Even in lean times, some of us with fantastic government jobs need to think about making more money. But I get the sense that a lot of smart people would kill for my job, and I'd always regret leaving it.

For somebody with the credentials to get a job in biglaw or midlaw (T14, LR, federal clerkship, 4 yrs out of law school, regular trials and appellate arguments) , but without the type of government experience that would merit instant partnership, is it worthwhile to consider jumping for a firm for a few more bucks? Or is it best to try to wait out the storm in our safe harbor, while enjoying the satisfying job, great benefits, 9-5 hours, and regular court appearances?

SMALLLAW = 10% less hours for 50% less pay and 0 to 100% less a-holes depending on firm.

You make the call.

With enough courage, you can do without a reputation.

just don't do insurance defense. that shitlaw practice is monkey work and offers no opportunity to go ANYWHERE

what reputation does a useless laid off jr associate from biglaw with no real experience have? Around here we call them paralegals. Street cred baby.

What about leaving law alltogether??? With a few years of experience, just about anyone can make six figures in a middle management position. Hell, even the manager of my local grocery store makes over $100k. If you are not making tons of money being a lawyer, why are you doing it? For the love of being an attorney??? LOL!

how much (on average) do bankruptcy boutiques pay? Assume major cities: NYC/CHI/LA/DC.

How is the quality of life generally?

Do you handle smaller mom-and-pop restrurturings?

Any comments will help

-Newbie in a BK clerkship.

I just got an offer at a "midsize" firm in Salt Lake (for that market, midsize is about 50 attorneys). 1900 hour billable requirement, with no real extra expected. $100k per year salary with a fairly competitive bonus structure, etc. The environment is relaxed, but everyone seems to work pretty hard. Looks like about 55 hours per week.

I own a 2 attorney firm, with a paralegal. We added a third attorney at $24K per year, no benefits, but the work load was only 20 hours per week. I thought it might grow into a better job. There was no shortage of applicants. Ultimately, the person we hired quit and we did not replace him. Honestly, we lost money on him, clients would call and make us write off half his hours. One client did not like him and fired us, at least temporarily. He was an Ivy League graduate. Fortunately, I put in a good reference for him and he now works at a bigger firm. Unless you own the small law firm, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to work at one.

CRAVATH SECURE

126 FTW.

118 - Probably not, unless you desperately need the money. Before I got laid off, I was trying very hard to get out of a large law firm to the government (and am obviously still trying). Most people I know are in the same boat. I was tired of partners and counsel taking all of the good work for themselves, endless document review (large law firm rates dictate taking on huge cases and billing the heck out of clients for massive document reviews - and if you're not doing the review yourself, you're managing contract attorneys which isn't that much fun either), the significant a-hole factor in the partnership, and people who thought nothing of calling you at midnight at home with questions about a project you turned in two days ago.

That said, if you really want the firm experience, I would do a lot of research into what law firms will give you good litigation experience, i.e., not just document review and drafting motions about discovery problems. My old firm certainly didn't offer anyone the experience of making appellate arguments or even appearing in court all that much, but I can't speak to the likes of Williams & Connolly, Covington, Kirkland, etc. Perhaps the V25 firms give better experience in those areas. Just know that no matter what the firm, you will: (a) have to deal with the highly competitive nature of private practice; and (b) probably have to deal with more jerks; and (c) become a slave to the billable hour.

I'm thinking of turning down Watchell for a small plaintiff's firm in Witchita, Kansas. They promise me a better quality of life than I can get at a "Big Fancy New York City Law Firm" (in their words).

I am leaning towards working there. They have not told me my base salary but they say I can keep 20% of everything that I bring in from people I close at the hospital and collision center.

I am anxious to hear everyone's thoughts. Is the QOL worth living in Witchita and being among the "people" while I practice?

~Anxious 2L

Agree w/115. Categorized information on different practice areas, sizes, etc. would be extremely useful.

Even without that, this is a better than average post.

I am suprised that no one has pointed out that the problem with biglaw is that you only make 20-25% of what you bill. (I'm at a v50 firm, billing at $400 as a 3rd year). If your clients would pay you half of that directly, assuming that you have the skill to do the work (midlevels seem to be doing 90% of the work here), you could work less and make more... Anyone tried this? I would be interested to hear how it went.

"How does 500 hours translate to grossing $350k? That would mean you are billing $700 an hour, which seems rather high for a solo practitioner. "

Not 82, but if you work on contingency, one big win/settlement can get you $350k easily. I'm not a litigator, but I had a relative who was involved in a $1M+ discrimination settlement with her attorney taking a 33% piece...pretty sure he spent under 500 hours on the case.

Small firms are very personality driven, from my limited experience. One or two top guys run everything because they bring in the most revenue, and their imprimatur is on everything. If you jive with that, fine, if not, you won't be happy.

Also, as someone else said (up there in the 80s I think), there's no escape if you don't like the partners you are working for. That goes for the associates too.

Finally, I think there is no question that smaller firms allow attorneys to develop, but at the same time I have grave doubts about the skills of attorneys who laud their small firm experience because they do "lots of depositions and trials" within their first 5 years of practice. Very few people know how to learn from their mistakes and be thorough; for most, it is impossible to unlearn the wrong way of doing things.

On final thing: I would like to see an open thread inviting people to tell the story of how they got their first significant client. Maybe it was happenstance, maybe it was a relationship, whatever. It would be an interesting read.

125 - That description sounds similar to mid-sized firms in the Bay Area and LA.

--Laid-off BigLaw 5th Year

Most small firms do CRAPlaw like divorces, insurance defense, consumer bankruptcy, and personal injury. That's just a fact of life.

Very few small firms do anything else. Thus, most small firms pay $50-60k for miserable work.

129: the pressures which force most associates at large firms to bill document review and other repetitive, mindless crap exist at any litigation "boutique" that claims to do high quality work. Those who came to my firm thinking they would leave behind "big firm" work by coming to a smaller shop -- albeit a quality shop -- have been mostly disappointed, I think.

My litigation boutique pays 1st years $175k + bonus. As a 5th year, I cleared over $280k last year. On averaged I've billed 2400+ a year every year and took only 5 days of vacation time my first 3 years.

However, I had very little law school debt and I drive a 2004 Gallardo and live it up.

135 - This is why this post--while containing much more information than the average--has problems. There are plenty of regional, midsize firms (50-150?) that have broad, general practices. They won't be doing $1 billion public securities offerings, but they are fine places to have a career. These places have to be distinguished from both ShitLaw shops (DUIs, low end ID, etc.) and high-end boutiques.

30+ years with federal government, earning about 150K now, usually put in more than 40 hours per week but that's pretty much voluntary, almost no weekend work and it can mostly be done at home. Will retire in a couple of years with 100+K pension. Not bad, IMHO.

Recently (5 months ago) laid off at mid-size litigation firm where 90% of my work was commercial. Took job at small (55 atty) litigation firm doing 80-90% insurance defense. We deal mainly with large policies (large for insurance policies) and defend large private clients and government. Several people have commented that insurance defense is bad. Please explain why? I am learning a great deal by hands-on experience, much more so than at the other shop.

Recently (5 months ago) laid off at mid-size litigation firm where 90% of my work was commercial. Took job at small (55 atty) litigation firm doing 80-90% insurance defense. We deal mainly with large policies (large for insurance policies) and defend large private clients and government. Several people have commented that insurance defense is bad. Please explain why? I am learning a great deal by hands-on experience, much more so than at the other shop.

138 - there are actually a large number of small boutiques that do high-end work. The problem is that there is often a lack of diversity among clients and cases which can lead to a feast or famine outcome for associates and partners-and the accompanying layoffs.

Small law firms = <20 lawyers.
Boutique does not equal Small Law

I think many people here are confused on terminology.

There's always a lot of talk about litigation boutiques, but does anyone here know of any corporate boutiques?

- Bored Corporate BigLaw attorney looking to get out.

LOL!

From the comments on here, most people would think that small law paid fairly well.

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most small firms pay crap. That is a fact.

Just because there are a few "boutique" shops that pay well, relatively speaking, doesn't mean that that is the norm for most small law firms.

Most small shops do run-of-the mill shitlaw crap. They don't pay well and do not have very good hours.

140/141 - it's the low-end of insurance defense that's truly toxic. Although the billing pressure from insurance companies can cause ID attorneys to underprepare, much the same way the PI firms do. If you're not the type (or weren't trained) to fret over a single document for multiple hours, you won't be breaking back into biglaw.

Mid-level associate at one of those boutiques on the east coast (think Susman-like, but with better credentials). Get paid a better than market salary with a much better than market bonus. Also get a lot of experience. Down side is the hours, which typically range between 2200 and 2400, with more for trial-heavy years (e.g., 3+ trials).

If you love the work, this is a great job.

3L (with offers in hand):

Summered with small firm after 1L year, biglaw after 2L year. At the associate level, differences in hours were negligible, but the small firm paid less than half-market (started at 75k). Associates there were the opposite of happy, but the partners (allegedly) pulled in HUGE salaries.

I accepted biglaw with no hesitation.

For a partner with a solid book of portable business and a small team of good people willing to make the leap, starting a small new firm can mean even bigger bucks than just moving elsewhere in BigLaw, in the long run.

SmallLaw is not Boutique. Those in the know about boutiques (IP and Litigation are what I'm familiar with), know they 1) pay like BigLaw - maybe not Wachtell, but 145-225 (usually tied to billables) for associates as they move up the ranks and 2) work you like BigLaw to the extent they can. You get more experience, especially in client management, which most BigLaw associates have no clue about. Heck, most partners at BigLaw don't know much about it either. As a partner, you top out at lower numbers, unless you're at a plaintiff's firm that handles big cases (they do better than BigLaw partners some years). The commenter with $1 million judgment is only the tip of the iceberg.

For my own stats: Chicago, under 40 attys, 2nd yr, 165k for 2000 hours, plus bonus tied to billables above that. Good benefits (free health insurance). Decent experience - no big doc reviews, but no trial work either. Most importantly, no layoffs, even though we're slower than last year.

It depends!

I have to bill 1800 for $70k. I work 10-6pm and maybe work weekend 2 to 3 times a year. Basically I have to bill 7.5 a day and have 2 weeks off a year.

There are other firms such as Morrison Mahoney and WEMED that are real mid law sweatshops. They want biglaw hours i.e 2100 billables , for 70k.....

You cannot compare billable hours for big firm with smaller firms. The billables at small firms seem smaller (1750-1850), but it takes a lot more work to make them. No sitting on the clock all day.

35 - I think you're right on target

I think a lot of the commenters are dead-on in this thread (unusual) and like the diverse viewpoints - I agree with many that smalllaw can't be lumped into one general summary because it depends on the small firm, area of practice etc. I do think solo or very small practice is better for the owners of the practice than any associates or counsel the practice will hire, since the whole point of a small practice is low overhead and any employees will raise that overhead. Whereas big firms expect high overhead so they don't feel it as much as a smalllaw practice.

141,

I'll echo what another commenter said. Much of my medium-small sized firm (28 attorneys - medium southern city) focuses on a similar practice.

Large scale insurance defense isn't much different than a lot of other litigation. You can bill a lot of hours on a multi-million dollar construction where two or three parties are indemnified to each other or defending high dollar personal injury cases (IE seven figure single cases and or class actions)

The small scale stuff isn't much different from being an adjuster with a law degree. Repeatedly settling joe shmo's slip and fall or fender bender isn't great work.

The problem with even the large scale litigation is that, moreso than most companies, insurance companies are particularly controlling clients. Most large insurance companies wield sufficient market power to tell law firms "this is what we pay, this is what you can bill for, and you will bill it using our system." It makes insurance defense as a subset of litigation a particularly low paying specialization.

152 hit the nail on the head. In small firms, the clients actually pay attention to the bill. You can't just be at the office 10 hours and bill 9 of them. No one is that efficient.

115's idea is very good. I hope ATL implements it.

Anyone who thinks that government lawyers in big cities work 40 hours a week need to get their heads out of their asses. As a government lawyer there is ALWAYS more work, ALWAYS. It's the exact opposite of firm life, you never have to worry that the work wll run out. And most government lawyers (at least in the offices I worked in USAO and DANY) the attorneys killed themselves for no money. The only benefit of this situation was on the rare occasion that you had a momemtary lull (like a case settles or you get a verdict on a Thursday afternoon and you're next big thing isn't until Monday afternoon) you can take a day off (it's often encouraged). Government is a great place to be becuase the work is often fun and exciting and you actually get to be a lawyer, but you will work really hard and you won't have 2 nickels to rub together after years of work.

Anyone who thinks that government lawyers in big cities work 40 hours a week need to get their heads out of their asses. As a government lawyer there is ALWAYS more work, ALWAYS. It's the exact opposite of firm life, you never have to worry that the work wll run out. And most government lawyers (at least in the offices I worked in USAO and DANY) the attorneys killed themselves for no money. The only benefit of this situation was on the rare occasion that you had a momemtary lull (like a case settles or you get a verdict on a Thursday afternoon and you're next big thing isn't until Monday afternoon) you can take a day off (it's often encouraged). Government is a great place to be becuase the work is often fun and exciting and you actually get to be a lawyer, but you will work really hard and you won't have 2 nickels to rub together after years of work.

I don't have time to read all of these other comments because I'm too busy working my ass off for a third of what my friends make, but I will say this:

The small law firms get away with it because the people who work for them have no other choice. They either didn't go to good enough schools or didn't make good enough grades to go to Big Law.

There are also those who don't pay attention and think $65,000 is a really high salary. Finally, there are those who left Biglaw and came here. They drink the kool-aid, because they're "rich." They paid their loans off, came here with five or more years of experience and are happy to be treated a little better and work 5-10 hours less per week for a significantly lower salary.

But the few cursed individuals who are aware of their worth, yet haven't reached its full potential are mentally tormented with the knowledge that this "quality of life" isn't a fair trade for the rest of my salary. You owe me some money, Small Law Firm.

Ignorance is bliss.

It appears that the SEC will be increasing its enforcement staff roughly 50% in the next 1-3 years. If you have or get some securities experience, watch USAJOBS if you have any interest. The fed govt cannot compete with BigLaw salaries but the SEC is decent - I'm five years out and making $145k in base salary in Chicago. The work is fantastic, the benefits are excellent, and the work schedules can't be beat - try a 4x10 work week with 2 days in my home office. Just a thought.

I have a bit to add to the whole insurance defense discussion. While I certainly agree that insurance companies are awful clients (unless it's reinsurance and then they pay million dollar bills without a thought), the experience can be great for a young attorney when it's higher level ID. As a 2nd year, I've drafted dispositive motions on my own and been given some files to manage myself. And I work mostly on class actions with very little to no grunt work.

Public sector jobs do not necessarily pay less than private sector jobs. Here in California, the guy driving the BART train makes $115k. And he can retire after 20 years and get his full salary for the rest of his life. With no law degree or debt.

Not all small firms are like that. I left BigLaw in LA, by choice, after 3 years. Now at a 7-person firm, making $160, with a 10-20k bonus every year. It's not big law money, but it's not bad at all. Plus I wear jeans every day, except for the court appearances, which are about once a week. I've argued appeals solo in the court of appeals (defending a $1m judgment). We don't do slip and fall, we don't do med mal. I work 40 hours, max, a week, have never worked a weekend, and take a shitload of vacation.

Not everything is a massive cut back. You just have to look really hard to find a good small firm. But there are plenty out there.

What about EXLAW?

I left my crap lawyer job after just 1 year from graduating from a "tier 1" lawschool (I know tier 1 = TTT) and now make the same as a mid-BIGLAW associate plus huge amounts of stock options that could equal a few years salary.

Why would anyone want to be a lawyer unless you are making huge money?

163,

In LA? 40 hours a week? Sounds like you won the lottery, because your situation is the rare rare exception, or you grew up with a partner's son or something.

125 - take that job. I lived in salt lake from 13 - 16 , not mormon. Beautiful city, more to do than you think, and you will live twice as well on 100k there than 160 in nyc

164 - Mind sharing exactly what you're doing? That's about the fourth or fifth post I've seen from people stating that they are making BIGLAW money outside of being a lawyer, but no one ever explains exactly what they're doing or how they got into it.

So many clowns here think it is A or B - such a fallacy.

Biglaw is remarkably similar between firms. Min hours vary a little, hours worked compared to hours billed vary a little, bonuses vary when there's not a recession, prestige points vary a lot, but salary and hours required are remarkably similar and much more so than any comparable industry.

"Small law " is completely different. It may require 2400 billable hours and pay $60k or it may require 1800 hours and pay $160k in a place with 1/2 the COL of NYC, or it may require 2000 hours and pay $100k.

That's where this article and many of the comments are inherently flawed. Going from Biglaw to small law is neither inherently better or worse quality of life nor better or worse money relative to cost of living. Biglaw is pretty uniform but small law is like other jobs and is depends on the shop.

Small firms no = greener grass. Same hours with way less pay. However, small firm associates get way more court time, client contact and responsibility. So if you're willing to compromise material lifestyle for practical legal education, small law is for you. I, however, am not in this business for health and education.

This is most painful. Would someone PLEASE pass the Vaseline?

In NYC, took a small law (8 lawyers) job after getting laid off from big law. $75k base, 12 hours a day, some weekends. Insurance is really shitty. Still have about $1200 a month in debt payments. I know it's more than most people in the country make, but $1200 on top of rent, on top of food and various other life costs, plus state and city tax... $75k doesn't go far. From the comments, it looks like maybe NYC lawyers are taking it harder than others?

Recent t2 grad. Simmered at biglaw but fell victI'm to the economy. Lucky to get a job at a small (30 attys) firm.
That said, my firm operates in many respects like biglaw. About four or five associates to am equity partner and two equity partners basically run the show. Environment and hours expectations suck but the work is pretty respectable. It has made me realize very quickly that working for yourself as soon as you are able is almost always the best way to go. Although many aspects of being a lawyer make me think twice about doing it forever, it is one of the rare professions where you can realistically have a good chance to run your own successful shop.

I work for the federal government. I make enough money to pay the bills; get tons of time off. As a perk I get to travel around the world. Could probably go to work in my PJs. On a private practice equivalent I probably bill 25hrs/wk. I will never get fired (I have a vested property interest in my job - go read about it in your Admin Law case book). I have no clients.

However, I regularly think about running to private practice to make a livable wage x 2. Reading these sad and greedy comments makes me glad to be where I am.

Having skimmed the comments, has anyone commented on the difference in partnership potential in big law v. mid-law v. small law?

Sorry if I missed it in previous comments.

Are there any benefits in small law for people who don't want to be litigators? What kind of corporate work can one expect to do in a small firm (assuming there is no recession)?

152 is absolutely 100% correct. It's the most pivotal comment on the thread (admittedly skimmed). I work in small law. I cannot bill the way I did in BigLaw. In a given day you are expected to work on 5 to 6, possibly even 7 matters. You are basically forbidden from billing more than 2.5 hrs to any particular client on any given day unless it's trial prep. Even then, trial prep hours are akin to what 1 and 2 years bill to doc review in BigLaw and as you know trial is trial - actual work required.

That is why there are two misnomers going on. 1) "I have no minimum billable." Unless you're on contract, you most certainly do, you just don't know what it is. But believe me, your bosses do. 2) Low billable requirements in small law might as well be 200 to 300 hours more because of the lost efficieny. No 90% efficiency days. Some days if a couple of clients don't answer your email and give you the damn docs or give you the info you need to file the complaint you're basically screwed for hitting 8 hours.

139 -- those pensions aren't available any more, sadly.

I agree with the SEC lawyer comment, for the most part. Don't hold your breath on the 50% increase in enforcement staff, I don't know how many times there were rumors of staff increases floating around that came to nothing. The job security can't be beat, the lawyers are nice, but the work can get repetitive. Still, it beats the Biglaw lifestyle, for those who are content to stay in one place with no real prospects for advancement or higher salary (once you hit the ceiling of your pay grade).

3 comments:

1. There are many small firms that are IP boutiques which pay close to biglaw associate salaries. They can be located anywhere - so they can keep their overhead low. Typical work is drafting and prosecuting patents, opinions, and litigation support (i.e., not trial). It is quite common for IP attorneys to get a few years of Biglaw or buotique experience, and then start their own small firm.

2. For those of you working biglaw hours for 70k or less, why don't you go into practice for yourself. You could spend 1000 hrs/year looking for clients and 1000 hrs/year billing at $100/hr to make approximately the same money you are earning now.

3. Biglaw senior associates make around $250k. They bill at $500+/hr. and at least 2000 hrs bringing in at least 1 Mil. I'm asking myself why I don't hang out a shingle, bill at $250/hr, and make the same salary as biglaw by billing about 1200 hrs to cover overhead and insurance. Yes the first year or two will be nerve racking trying to land clients, and one could spend 1000 hrs per year trying to land clients. But Biglaw is nerve racking too.

People shouldn't be so quick to knock PI law. I left a NYC BigLaw firm years ago to do PI in a small town. Although there was a big pay cut at first, my standard of living actually increased after getting away from NYC prices (and taxes). Within a year, I was making more than those I left behind in NYC.

There are more ups and downs in PI work. I've had years when I made more than a BigLaw partner, and years when I've made less than a 1st year BigLaw associate, but the work is far more satisfying and, on the whole, I think I've made at least as much as if I'd stayed in NYC.

As for my associates, they have made anywhere from 60K to 300K, depending on how much they made for the firm. Small firms don't pay just because you were on law school, but many of us do reward those who produce for the firm.

Wow. I thought 162 was exaggerating about the BART drivers, but sadly no. Check out the salaries here:
http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_12682351?nclick_check=1

$95000 ain't bad in this or any other economy. A sixth year is what? 32 years old? Probably single or just married with a wife/husband who works? 95% of people in their early 30s should be glad to take that.

175: I'm doing corporate, securities work at a small firm. I'm doing the exact same work for the exact same clients that I did when I worked for a 1000+ attorney firm. Grant it, I'm making about 65-70% of my Big Law salary, but, at my current small firm, I actually have work to do. I don't have to deal with all the recruiting/non-billable work hours I had to deal with at a Big Firm, and I feel I have much more job security. Corporate botiques, or small law corporate work is out there, its just hard to find. It basically takes a rainmaker to decide he's fed up with Big Law and open up his/her own shop. The billing structure for clients is much more flexible and I'm really enjoying the situation I find myself in. The amount of experience that I am gaining is light years ahead of what I was gaining in Big Law.

If nothing else, it makes myself a lot more marketable if I decide to return to Big Law when things settle down....that's a big IF.

In Boston the way to riches and no debt is to graduate high school and then join the police or fire department. In a few years you will be making $100k + with overtime and get to retire after 20 years. You can retire in your early 40s. No student loan debt. Indeed the Quinn bill means they will pay for you to go to university part time and then give you a opay raise when you graduate from some bs degree that you never showed up for.

Started off life in a small (35 lawyer) firm in midtown. They talked about the lifestyle trade-off, too. They had an "informal" hours requirement of 180/mo., and paid "discretionary" bonuses, which means they exercised their "discretion" not to pay them. Total salary as a 1L was $95K, which increased to $105K by the time I was a 3L. At that point, I moved up to biglaw. Work more or less the same hours, but was able to afford an apartment in the city, cutting two hours off my round-trip commute. All in all, my lifestyle is the same or better now.

I'm in my third year of practice at a 12 attorney firm, making 65k a year, in a flyover state. I work about 45-50 hours a week. The pay is not what it was at my former BigLaw firm but the people here are normal, with normal lives outside of work, and liking my co-workers is priceless to me.

178 - You are right. IP prosecution/counseling/litigation is a sufficiently niche federal practice that can be done almost anywhere. There is really little need to be in NYC or a major market anymore, if you have 5-10 years of that type of experience from BigLaw or a solid IP boutique. In the past, clients routinely paid big bucks to the top tier IP firms for relatively mediocre work product. Now they can get better work product from IP firms in Cleveland for half the price.

Will people please stop saying we are in a service industry? We are not in a service industry, any more than doctors are. We are professionals. We get a very expensive (for many) degree, there are high barriers of entry to both law school and the profession, so why do we act like we're fucking baristas instead of doctors. You know what happens when a doctor is on call? You get a call about your medical issue three hours later. And you don't die. Our clients aren't in danger of death, and yet many of us jump around like puppets because some partners are unwilling to manage expectations.
Guess what? Jumping when the client says jump doesn't enhance your prestige, it makes you into a spineless wimp. Is it any wonder that lawyers get caught up in the scandals we do when many of us don't set reasonable boundaries with the client?

@162:

The BART number you cited is "Salary and Benefit." One can not pay rent and food on the table with benefits. Totally apple and orange with the number people talking about here.

As for retirement. Bart employees are covered under CalPERS. There are many formulas, and none pay for full wage retirement with only 20 years of services.

https://www.calpers.ca.gov/mss-pub/SearchController?viewpackage=action&PageId=SearchCatalog&package_code=7

152 and 176 have a point, but I wouldn't say that that's true across the board (proving again why seperate practice area threads would be really, really useful).

Some plaintiff side firms handle cases where, statutorily, there's fee shifting so the defendant pays the plaintiffs bills if the defendant loses (eg in employment law). Thus, my experience has been that plaintiffs lawyers working on contingency bill EVERYTHING because it's they can always trim the unbillable stuff off a year down the road if theywin, but they can't tack on hours after it all ends.

And, even where there isn't fee shifting cases, it still wouldn't surprise me if the average plaintiff's lawyer was billing a lot of unbillables, because on average, their clients are not sophisticated people who know how to read a lawyer's bill.

Thus, my guess is that the average plaintiff's lawyer probably bills the largest % of their working hours of any group simply because of the nature of their work and clients.

So again, it's hard to make across the board blanket statements about small firms.

I left a senior associate position at BigLaw for a midlaw position in SF. My compensation has been cut exactly in half. Fortunately, I was making over $300K a year at BigLaw, so I can still support my family on my new salary, though it's tight.

However, work-wise my life is a giant improvement. I went from being a brief-writing bitch, doing nothing but cranking out motions all day, to running 13 cases pretty much entirely on my own. I used to work from 7:30am to 9 -11 pm most nights (coming home for dinner and working at home). Now I work from 7:30am to 3:30-4:30pm most days, unless there's an emergency. I almost never work a night or a weekend. This is not to say there aren't stressful times or weeks where I bill 60 hours a week or more -- it's just rare, and the schedule I work those hours is up to me. Where before I had a 2100 hour billable minimum, where I normally billed about 2500 hours, my new firm has a "goal" of 2100 hours, but no bonus tied to the number. Also, I'm in court at least once a month, because the partner I work with is doing business generation and settlement conferences and mediations, meaning she doesn't have time for hearings.

I miss the pay a LOT, and the benefits, which suck at my new firm. But I feel like I'm finally learning how to actually be a lawyer and run cases, which never happened in Biglaw. So overall it's a win, I think.

Money can't buy happiness....but it sure can buy a lot of things that make me happy.

The idea that money doesn't buy happines is wrong and it is always spouted by people who either a) already have alot of money; b) poors who are trying to convince themselves that they are fine having no money.

I worked for $50k in state government and $65k in a 10 attorney firm.

I now earn $120k in midlaw and I am much happier earning more money thank you very much.

192,

It sounds like you didn't grow up with money. You need to work 60-70 hours a week for a decade or so to know whether or not the tradeoff was worth it. When your kids don't like you, your chubby wife if banging the gardner, and you still can get fired from your "senior counsel" position at a firm, you will be in a better place to judge whether or not you should have stayed working for the government.

193 - You can have kids who don't like you, a cheating spouse and no job security without earning much money. Lots of people do it. And it's true - I didn't grow up with money. It's also true that life is much, much better with it than without.

about federal govt service: it depends on the locality and also the division/agency. sec pays really well; usao pay is crappy (for the amount of work you put in). some agencies pay well. you can also get performance bonuses with some government jobs, as well as end of year bonuses (in the low 4 figures).
also, you can get comp time (unpaid), which means you work over 8 hours a day, you can earn time (and not have to use your vacation days).

it's either in-house or government for me.

it seems as though people need to be talking about BENEFITS here. your benefits at big and smallaw are usually not good, or not as good as, government or corporate benefits.

All that garbage about "money can't buy happiness" and "the best things in life are free" is just propaganda created by the rich in order to keep the poor from realizing just how badly they are getting screwed. Wake up, people!

Viva la revolucion!

I read an interview with Samuel L. Jackson in GQ (I think) and he spoke about money and happiness. Paraphrased, it went something like this: Interviewer: "A lot of people say money doesn't buy happiness, what do you say to that." Jackson: "I say that's bullsh*t. I've been poor as hell and now I have money. I'm a hell of a lot happier now than I was when I was poor. It may not buy you happiness, but it sure does make it a lot easier to achieve."

187 -- totally right. thank god for partners who manage client expectations. they are a rare breed.

"Money can't buy happiness, but at least you can choose your misery"
-Chris Rock

Keep believing that money doesn't make you happy. That just leaves more for me!
-Poppin Bottles, Parties with Models

I'm at work so I can't write a lot but I will put in another comment later. Here's my salary history and a quick blurb about each firm. 3 1/2 years at a small litigation firm, just started at a different small firm.

2006- $60,000 for 1700 billable hours at my rate of $175/hr. (142/mo.) plus up to 100 hours of firm administration. Billed 1750 and actually worked 2,000+ hours due to narcissistic boss's need for self-validation manifested in over 100 hours of "associate training" office conferences counted as non-billable time. I brought in $110,000 in actually collected billings. No bonus. No secretary.

2007- $72,000 for 1700 billables at my rate of $195/hr. Billed 1800, worked 2100+ hours due to being required to engage in ridiculous amount of "firm marketing" by joining local charity organizations. No secretary, so I had to do all my own filing; eventually I laid down the law by recording such tasks as no-charge billable time to clients. I brought in $210,000 in actual collections including $15k from a client I personally originated due to unusual knowledge in one area of administrative law. Bonus of a measly $5,000 pre-tax. Finally got a secretary in December.

2008- $85,000 for 1700 billables at my rate of $210/hr. Less marketing and training, but more work. I had a career-high month of 250 billable hours, 280 actually worked, $45,000 collected. Brought in $285,000 in actual collections. No bonus.

2009 first half- $95,000 for 1700 billables at my rate of $225/hr. Laid off when firm found out about my efforts to get a job with USDOJ.

2009 second half- USDOJ withdrew my job offer :( found a job with a local small firm. The boss is an absent-minded, bumbling idiot with interpersonal issues and the other people who work here are just weird, but the money is better. $108,000 for 1920 billables (160/mo.) at my rate of $295/hr., increasing to $120,000 within a year. The boss conveniently "forgot" what we discussed in the interview, which was an increase to $114k after 3-4 months due to financial burden of starting me off without profit coming in. That was fine except he "forgot" this part after I started. I don't care because if he doesn't remember later on, I'm done.

In a nutshell- same or slightly less work than a big firm; waaaaaaay less money; zero professional status- no one outside small firm community knows my name or my firm's; high stress due to asshole bosses who run their own show without other equals to check and balance their b.s. And worse, who believe they are better than biglaw because they offer such great "training" and experience. Also, small/solo bosses don't have any or many other associates to spread out their issues on so I'm the target and I find myself in many office conferences where I'm basically an audience but am expected to pay attention and not browse the web, check email, etc. Plus side, I've taken several dozen lengthy depos, done about 40 complex motions by myself, and had two jury trials. Also, since I have actual experience I'm marketable to other small firms, not to mention the public- I could actually handle my own case from start to finish, too bad I don't have any. If I had had a choice between biglaw and small (I didn't due to my grades), I would have chosen biglaw.

midlaw here: make about $95k, 8th year out, threshold law (whatever pays the bills); on the flipside, i am happily married with three kids, i go to every one of their events, dont work weekends (much) and eat with the family almost every night.

for the first 5 years of my life, i was at biglaw in nyc and hated life. i saw the partners that stayed at the office late into the night and the weird feeling they had around their families at get togethers (assuming they were still married).

i am broke, drive a 15 year old car, live in a small house, and love every second of it.

keep the money, i will take my family.

of course, that is easy for me to say since i lived like i was poor for those first 5 years to pay my loans back. same car from college!!

201 - What kind of grades did you really have and what law school was it? (tier-wise).

I would love to start at 60K after law school (law school ~40 rank-wise, I am right above the class median). How do you get a small firm job that pays that kind of cash? Honestly, the only small firms I have ever heard of out where I am pay ~40K starting. The only firms that pay ~60K starting out are firmst that have >25 lawyers and require great grades (top 25% / law review).

Just seems like getting a job anywhere is nearly impossible unless you would work for ~40K. Which looks like what I will be doing.

Did you get that job after having summered there? What state are you in? I'd be willing to relocate anywhere to get a job paying 60K initially, srsly.

This is 201. 203, where are you? I'm in California and I got a 2.7 from a public school then ranked about 35. What happened was that I never learned how to write a proper exam answer, because they didn't teach us. I finally learned in the bar review course- literally, one day it just clicked. So I got bad grades and thought I just wasn't smart enough. A small firm took a chance on me- I had clerked there for no pay after my first year, and they liked me enough to give me a try. I justified the 60k figure because I had to relocate about 90 miles and give up a part time job, and similar sized firms were paying 60k.

My suggestion would be to take a 40k job, preferably with government (state or local), stay for 1-2 years while minimizing the cost of your lifestyle, and move on. Once you have some experience, you'll be marketable. The trick is not to get overcommitted financially so that you have some freedom to move, or make a salary demand and mean it when you say you will walk.

If you don't have great grades, I think you better show them that you are a hard worker and have a good personality.

204 - I am in a mountain west state. I have a 3.3 currently and am right at the median as I mentioned earlier. I actually have received "A's" in several different classes, but have also bombed a few, hence the mediocre median GPA.

I have an offer with a small firm for 40K (no benefits) starting out, but I just don't see much of a way to move up within that firm. I just don't do much fungible work currently and think I may have a hard time lateraling later on due to the lack of a specific set of skills (which is what I am hoping to do).

I wouldn't mind working for the government, but they just aren't hiring around here to be honest (at least as far as I can tell). I am lucky in that I don't have hardly any debt (have worked part time throughout all of law school and have lived like a homeless man).

I don't mind having to work my way up, but I feel like with this firm that might be impossible since I don't do fungible work there. Should I be willing to do any kind of work? Or is there an area that will allow me to work my way up through different laterals? Any other advice would be great.

Well I'm not sure what specifically you would be doing at the 40k firm, but if I were an employer I would prefer to see any work experience than none. At the same time, 40k without benefits seems pretty low unless it's a straight 9-5 job as in govt. service. If it's a firm with a decent reputation in your community, I don't see what you would have to lose by getting experience.

When I first graduated from law school in 2007, I scoffed at the notion of taking a 40K job. I looked at postings and asked "seriously?" 40K seemed like a joke. After a couple of months, I found a job in small corporate legal department that paid $75K. The hitch was that it was a limited term position. Since that position ended, I have been unable to find another job despite having a decent resume and background. Within reason, I would jump on any attorney position available despite a paltry salary. Taking a 40K job in 2007 probably would have been a better decision for me than jumping on the $75K temporary position. I think the key is just getting over the 2-3 years of experience barrier. I would think a lot of options would follow once you have that experience under your belt.

omg. seriously. the best paying law firm in puerto rico pays a first year 65k. THE BEST PAYING LAW FIRM. I'm not at the best paying law firm.

Its always been this way. I'd take that $95,000 and smile all the way to the bank.

At least you had a couple years of high enough earnings to put a dent in the law school loans debt...

Its always been this way. I'd take that $95,000 and smile all the way to the bank.

At least you had a couple years of high enough earnings to put a dent in the law school loans debt...

Not working in a large law firm does require a different type of personality and approach to the practice of law, which has proven difficult for some people, but works well for others. http://www.burlingtonbusinesslawyer.ca

agreed with everyone who notes that working in small/mid law depends soooo much on what firm you work for, whether its in a specialized field, etc.

I work for a small/mid size firm with approximately 15 attorneys. We practice constitutional and environmental law and as a second year associate I make approximately $95,000 plus around $20,000 in bonuses. Our billable hour requirement is 1800,I work approximately 40 hours per week and very rarely work nights or weekends. I can come in anytime I want basically as long as I get my work done and everyone here is very laid back, fun to work with and the firm is extremely understanding about taking time off for family events and vacations. You couldn't pay me to go work for a big firm, and they give you the optiopn here of working big law firm hours for bonuses in the $50-$60k range. Working in small law is all about findinng the right boutique / specialized firm to work for.
Calculated out with the two weeks of vacation I took this year I make about $58/ per hour in a low stress environment where we still get to work on cutting edge and historical cases. I couldn't be happier - to big law firmsI say NO THANK YOU!

I accepted a small firm offer over a biglaw offer. It's not that I didn't enjoy my biglaw summer experience, but the small firm wanted me to start in September (as opposed to Jan. 2010... maybe), paid me reasonably well, and allowed me to work on many of the same types of cases that I would have worked on at the big firm.

Stats: $110k per year plus bonus (approx. $20k), 50-60 hours per week, 1800 hours per year.

This, I believe, is the exception and not the norm.