FIRST to say, this is offensive.

Is this the job the U of I grads get if they don't have grades bad enough to take advantage of the BigLaw jobs their dean gets for them?

This is the wave of the future and I think its a welcome change. Rather than investing six figure salaries in untested first year associates that have no real skill, give them low paid internships and make them demonstrate their worth before being offered significant compensation.

A common pleas clerkship/government job only pays 10-15K more than this in my area and the ceiling is much higher here.

Sorry folks the days of instantly being entitled to six figures are gone. Its time to earn it.

Is this a job for alumni of the vaunted Chicago-Kent College of Law legal writing program?

Gotta say, this is a bit of a slap in the face. $15/hour for 35 hours a week. Likely no benefits (under the $40 a week mark).

Flip side... are you only working 35 hours/week? That may not be so bad if you never have to stay late (and are getting $60k+ from another firm to defer). Otherwise... is $27k better than unemployment?

Fine, but the one year commitment is bogus.

NU's CSO send this around to recent grads. I'm disgusted I wasted 3 years at that place.

Correction: sent. Damn typos. I must read too many of Elie's posts.

PE could begin to chip away at his delinquent Discover Card balance with this compensation.

Do you think they'd take a lateral from Locke Lord?

Forgot to add one more thing in the job requirements --

Must have the ability to take Dick-tation.

How could this not be better than unemployment? Even if it doesn't pay much more, at least you won't have to try and explain to recruiters that, despite the one-year gap in your resume, you weren't just sitting on the couch watching Family Guy reruns.

Law school is not a profitable venture for most of the people who pursue it. It's just part of that risk/ reward analysis, and not every one wins.

For young attorneys as a whole, nationwide, running the whole spectrum of jobs for law grads, I'd say $50-60K is a realistic estimate for the average salary the first few years out. After taxes and student loan payments, that $50-60K a year doesn't come close to what your friends who teach elementary school/ work as bricklayers/ manage a taco bell are taking home.

If you were bottom 2/3 of your class at a non-top tier school, you shouldn't have gone to law school (on loans). The student loans just don't make any economic sense.

If you did law school on student loans, you'll pay it all back someday (or you'll die!). But you won't get rich in the practice of law; and if you went to law school hoping to strike it rich, accept it now that you lost that bet.

- Law clerk at Federal distirct court, making $67K per year (LL.M. from NYU, J.D. from Tier 2, 1 year experience as associate at 145 lawyer firm in mid-west).

Wow, gainful employment for a full year? I'm on it.

-Former Seton Hall Summer at Orrick

Comment removed by moderator.

The legal education bubble is popping, right before our eyes. As demand for corporate legal services contracts, and as the supply of lawyers continues to grow from accredition for new schools and outsourcing to India, billing rates and salaries will fall. Law school tuitions will - at some point in the future - follow.

10

PE cannot work in this firm, or any other firm. He wouldn't meet the character fitness requirements of the bar after his arrest for sexual lewdness and battery in Chilmark in Martha's Vineyard last month. Nude romps with equally pasty elderly white men behind the sand dunes next to a family beach isn't such a good idea, especially if you're discovered with a schlong in your mouth.

Did they really send this around to Northwestern graduates?

16 for the win.

Did they really send this around to Northwestern graduates?
- Concerned soon-to-be 1L

2 = FAIL

Is $27K actually more than employment benefits? Not in some jurisdictions I bet.

Amazing that the average biglaw first year makes not twice, not three times, but more than SIX TIMES as much money, and probably for similar work.

There is no God. We live in a fundamentally unordered and chaotic world. All beauty is accidental. Everything you have will be taken from you when you die. What is the rational human response to this?

8 -- Northwestern sent this around to alumni? Really? Ouch!

14 - you sound like an ass, especially the part listing your whole resume at the end. I can't wait to reverse you on appeal.

Law clerk at Federal circuit court

PS - why did you choose to capitalize "Law" and "Federal?"

The pay is offensive and sheds a poor light on this firm. How can you justify paying someone with a law degree less than the city worker who only has a high school degree and stands around flipping a traffic sign?

Here's my diatribe:

Employers are making the same repeat and costly mistakes seen in every major downturn. They are hiring talent that otherwise they may not have been able to get in better times and lowballing them in terms of job responsibilities, comp and tenure (i.e. offering temp spots or, overt trial periods). Know this. The economy will turn around despite doom and gloom commentary to the contrary and when it does, the flight from these positions will be epic. Smarter business persons would take advantage of the opportunity to obtain talent outright by offering albeit lower comp levels but not obscenely low as is the current dogma.

Now my diatribe against Biglaw. As an Associate in my 8th Year and with good reviews I was summarily let go in this downturn and after several months obtained an AGC position with a major international corporation. My former employers called me to congratulate (the first call they had ever lobbed in since they kicked me to the curb). I thanked them however here is how I view BIGLAW. I will never hire my former firm. They couldn't even manage their way through their own business without cutting 30% of the Associateship so why would I trust them to handle the legal work i need to be done. Moreover, the general sentiment in house is that we blatantly hate Biglaw partners and are loathe to use them outside of only the most complex situation, normally significant M&A and complex litigation. There is a distinct movement to utilizing regional firms (i.e. MIDLAW) and cutting relationbshipd with overpriced overvalued professional services like BIGLAW. I'll add that although I was bitter from the way I was dismised after 8 years, I also know that cutting heads after a 20-30% reduction in PPP immediately after a period of time when PPP rose to record levels in the years leading up to this bespeaks of an organizational mentality with which major international business could do without. Business people are loathe to deal with persons who cannot manage their own business. Bottom line.

The future holds consolidation in Biglaw, lower salaries, fewer spots. Institutional memory in-house is long but the process moves slowly. Inevitably, we are in the midst of an irrevocable progression away from using BIGLAW and I will certainly do my part.

Are unemployment benefits taxable?

The 27K figure is for 35 hour weeks. If there is time and a half OT and the person is working a more realistic 50 hrs a week thats another 17.5K which puts the job at a still crappy but more respectable 44.5k.

26: greed?

28,

Yes they are.

26: oh, and unions.

Someone should alert Roxana to this employment opportunity.

Race to the fucking bottom.

The ship be sinking...

25 - Win.

-Legal Intern in federal government currently making twice the amount advertised for this job

WHEN DO THE 2010 VAULT RANKINGS COME OUT?

Why would I want this job when I could just go work for the parks department where I'd make $30,000.

High school diploma > J.D.

Why would I want this job when I could just go work for the parks department where I'd make $30,000.

High school diploma > J.D.

The cost of living in Chicago is ridiculous. That entire pathetic salary would all be spent on renting some closet sized apt.

25 - I probably am an ass, but that's not really what I was getting at. Just letting others know what kind of people are reading/ posting; and letting law students know what kind of salary clerks take home. I thought folks might be interested.

On the second issue, I always get confused with capitalizing "[F]ederal". As you're part of the almost-elect (clerking with a circuit judge and all), maybe you can help me out: Is "[F]ederal" capitalized sometimes, always, or never?

The capital "L" in my post was the first letter in the closing sentence (which I admit was more like a phrase than a sentence). As the first letter of a phrase/ sentence, I think capitalizing that "L" was at least within my discretion. Maybe we can get a Supreme Court clerk to give us their thoughts to completely resolve both issues, the "L" and the "F"?

-14 (see resume, infra).

Laid off attorneys in my community apply for paralegal jobs all the time. It's no big deal...

23 -

Yeah this salary sucks. I'd try to negotiate for more, although you probably won't get very far. But here's the thing about some of these small firm situations. They really are what you make of them. If you get in there and prove that you are a valuable employee and help the firm make money, you'll be rewarded. If they really want to keep you around, you'll get large pay increases. I'm talking about 25-30K jumps per year in some cases if the firm is having a really good year. Sure, three years in it's not biglaw money, but its usually not biglaw hours either. And, as you will discover (if you haven't already), time is a non-renewable commodity.

You see, in small law firms you actually have to produce to earn money. There is nowhere to hide. If you are marginal or "need a lot of supervision", you're going to be canned. Quickly, unceremoniously and with no severance. Way faster than in biglaw, which, in most economies, will baby and mollycoddle associates along for years even though it is clear to everyone that said associate won't make the cut. It is a horrible approach to running a business and developing talent.

None of this applies to insurance defense/plaintiff's PI. Those are entirely different animals from what I understand.

BigLaw associate --> smalllaw partner

WHEN DO THE 2010 VAULT RANKINGS COME OUT??

Where is the thread on today's confirmation of Judge Sotomayor?

I'm making more money/hour on campus for a part time job. I haven't even started law school yet.

27, first, thank you for your thoughts. Not only do they validate my own thoughts, but they give me hope. Former large firm associate from a smaller market who left on my own terms and in good standing. I was even asked to stay. I'd be interested in your thoughts on how someone with clerking experience and 4 years of large firm training (been involved in several trials, including my own--got a lot of responsibility there) might get an "in" with corporate clients and perhaps get some of the smaller cases that such clients know require only the resources of a pretty talented and smart lawyer or two. I totally agree that biglaw as we've known it is dead and I feel awful for the people who are just coming out, but i'm now trying to build my own business and would love your advice. Thanks.

13.

In my opinion, unemployment will likely be better than this position because you would still be free to search for jobs during unemployment and you haven't locked yourself in for a year. One may be unemployed for a few months, but that person will have (ideally) been out there networking and sending out resumes, and not just sitting on a couch watching TV the entire time. Unless you can say for a fact that you will not be able to find ANYTHING in the next year that pays more than $15/hour, I think you're better off taking your chances.

This post does not inspire a lot of confidence in me that they would value you or your law degree. At least prior similar job postings from other places talk about starting slow but offer opportunities to grow, both in income and professional experience/position at the firm. Here, they just want cheap labor for a year.

Lastly, while this "legal work" might look better then a year of doing nothing, taking on jobs at too little pay relative to the market value of your services/talents could negatively effect your salary negotiations for your next job.

This is just my personal opinion, and everyone may have different priorities or view points regarding the value of the experience offered here.

- 6

I can't believe NU sent this around to grads. Can anyone confirm this?

Hell, I make more money working in Borders than this.

I caught Sotomayor rifling through my garbage last night. I shooed her away with the hose though.

14/41 - I believe you actually meant to put supra. Probably just a typo.

The first $2,400 in unemployment benefits received in 2009 will not be federally taxed come tax day 2010. In New York, you can receive unemployment insurance while receiving severance pay. You can also apply for HealthNY instead of overpriced COBRA when your nine months of Obamacare runs out.

6 here - sorry that comment should have been directed at 14, not 13.

27 - Well put and on the mark. 28 yes but first $2400 is exempt for '09

- 49
That's what I heard through the grapevine. Times must be tough.

Has MysTTTal been fired?

I'm David Lat?

Times must be tough?

TIMES ARE FUCKING TOUGH EVERYWHERE!

Overpriced weasels are scrabbling for jobs like this one.

48, totally agree. This job is, frankly, an insult. I'd love to hear feedback from the person who actually takes the job though. My guess is that you've hit the nail on the head.

13, I love how you've totally mapped out the future for everyone and basically decided the fates of a chunk of lawyers in one big swoop. First, I can't stand arrogant people like you who think that because you have the ability to reason, you can actually predict the future or evaluate people's strengths based on assumptions. Even so, feels to me like you've mapped out your own future. You sure as heck haven't mapped mine out and, small word to the unwise, instead of spending all of this time analyzing why people who don't fall into your convenient box are going to fail, you should be working on improving your legal analytical and practice skills because i'm coming for you and all people like you who think you've got it all worked out.

52 - You're right, I messed it up. I'll go back to work now.

Peace.

14/41

For a young law grad with no real experience, the job might be the best thing they ever did. Forget the money. The issue is getting real experience and know-how. If you're 25, have relatively low debt, and want to truly learn how a law firm works - you might be surprised at how much you could benefit. If you want a cushy 6 figure job because you simply want a cushy 6 figure job, well OK.

47--I was 27. First, as you probably know, major international companies would most likely never hire a solo outside of some distinct relationship and a very minor dispute. That said, you should target smaller corporate clients. Drive down an industrial area. Every manufacturing company there has a need for attorney work and some of them actually use the Big Boys. You'd be surprised where BIGLAW gets some of its clients and it includes nondescript manufacturing companies.

Bang your old contacts and/or actually try to get a job in house. Fed clerkship is just as impressive in house as it is in "out house"--my euphemism for BIGLAW. As I Stated and as I believe, this economy will turn around. We saw this on a smaller scale in 2001-2002. It always does and frankly the recession has overstayed its utility and is probably already over although it will take many months for business to realize and/or act upon it, unfortunately. As with the bottom in the stock market, nobody wants to jump in and make dollar commitments to anything until we are certain that the worst is over. Thats how this stuff works and by the time everyone realizes it, its too late to secure services/assets at the price you could have got them for closer to the bottom.

14

I think it's all or nothing - "Federal District Court" (for formal writing) or "federal district court" (for an online blog).

But, the point is moot because clerks don't really encounter the word "federal" that much - for you, it'll be "(Directional) District of (State)," and for me, the "(Number) Circuit of Appeals" or the "United States Court of Appeals for the (Number) Circuit."

25

59 here, fell into the 13/14 trap too. That was directed to 14.

My TTT law ex dumped me and got a pussy pass into CWT.

#62 - I am going to shit in your mouth.

#47

62, thanks, and yeah, I know how the "who our clients are" situation works. Good news for you, great experience and now being in the power position. Bad news, that it took all that blood, sweat, tears, and time to figure out how awful the present BigLaw model is. Good luck!!!!!

Hey all of you whiny law student douches... guess what, grades and good schools won't get you a job in this economy. You actually have to be LIKEABLE and an EARNER for your firm. Let me translate for you geeks who don't understand anything that is not Prosser: the partners must enjoy eating lunch with you, and clients must be demanding that you work on their cases. This is how it should be. You can't be some social deviate who can write phenomenal briefs, but can't have a normal conversation with a client over a glass of scotch. For young associates who recently got canned, all I have to say is, you obviously didn't take the bull by the horns in a way that the higher- ups noticed.

I've got news for this "high quality" firm. "High quality" "corporate" "FINRA arb" and "27K" don't go in the same sentence.

So here's a suggested rewrite, free of charge (not that these clowns could have paid anyway):

John Marshall grads, having recently formed a law firm and currently renting tablespace at the back of a local Kinko's, have somehow found their way into a "FINRA arb" (no, we don't know what that means either).

None of us graduated with honors (we couldn't even tell you if John Marshall has a law review), and we desperately need someone who can save our asses. Covering the phones, too, would be a plus as we just lost our 12th secretary in 7 weeks (apparently the CTA is hiring again, but nobody told us).

The only problem is pay. If we win, we think we can get you about $27K. If we lose, you'll at least be able to put "FINRA" and "securities" on your resume (we've already updated our own). We think that maybe "IPO" and "Series 7" would sound good as well. Awww hell, you could even go ahead and put "second chair" on there too.

Anyway, we really, really, really need a cum laude graduate from anywhere to come to our rescue. But you have to promise - PROMISE! - that you're not going to leave for the CTA too.

If interested, please contact my pager at 312-555-3444, or stop into the State and Lake Kinko's during our office hours, 5 a.m. - 7:30 a.m. or 8 p.m. -10:30 p.m.

Recent NU grad here. Did NOT receive an email about this from CSO.

If I am a social deviate who cannot have a normal conversation with a client over a glass of scotch, can I make partner?

~2L

Punk them --- just go through the interview, take your time deciding and reject the offer in writing, on a napkin. Line up five friends to all do the same. Maybe cross dress or wear something smelly.

Post your story online.

If nothing else, it'll be good practice. A fun, relaxing interview. You may even get a free cup of coffee.

68 = Assclown.

LOL to 69.

68, in all seriousness, you are half right. It is the people who are smart enough (don't have to be perfect) and basically 'human' (what I think you were going for) who become successes in life. It is those people, I think, who inevitably have a lot of street smarts and street smarts are essential for big success. However, where I totally take issue with your point of view is the idea that first (or even second for that matter) year associates in biglaw can even be in positions to make that kind of impression. If you have, great for you. But I bet you got that opportunity because you knew or were related to someone who knew someone. You likely didn't achieve that because you were just that super charming first or second year. I know you were sort of being brash, but I think this is a pretty serious topic because people who worked really hard are really hurting out there. In short, although I think you are mostly right, I don't think your ultimate conclusion re the "higher ups" noticing is fair.

69 = Awesome

they should be ashamed of themselves for posting that crap

69 -

Seriously, you should run your ad alongside of that crap firm's ad. I'd contribute to your costs.

-77?

68 = Yes, all the pretentious Harvard kids and nerdy UChicago kids are getting owned during OCI by TTT former frat presidents because they can't properly BS over a glass of scotch.

In the end, Clients remember who won their cases and solved their problems. Being social definitely helps out, but clients don't pay $300/hr for a good drinking buddy. Results first, scotch second.

69 = Best post this year.

Well said 61. I think this job may not be the worst thing in the world, even with the low pay. When the economy does recover, firms will want to hire people with real experience, not some person who has spent the last year looking for a job. And to be quite honest, entry level State's Attorneys in Cook County and law clerks for trial judges at the Daley Center don't make much more money. But what they give up in terms of monetary compensation, they more than make up for in terms of gaining experience and connections. Just look at how many attorneys who practice at well-respected firms (small and medium size) in Chicago started off as State's attorneys or Daley Center law clerks.

This is something that I think most young people take for granted early on in their career -- actual, hands on experience has an incredibly high intangible benefit that will often pay off in spades down the road.

79 is right but charm can extend a ride longer than merit would ever justify. The frauds always get found out but often after collecting some nice coin and making good contacts for future forays.

This position was once forwarded to Suffolk where CS quickly discarded it. They saw that it requires half-lawyering and knew their students would not qualify.

Correction, 83=Best post this year

-80

70, are you not on their email list? I got it.

Northeastern CSM had this job posted, but then they saw that it had a salary attached, and took it down.

Public interest to sleeping on the sidewalk!

of course this is absurd, but has anyone noticed this isn't for an attorney but rather a law grad - ie no bar.

OCI will be tough at NU this year if this is the best jobs they're informing grads about.

87,

The position requires that you have taken the IL bar this summer. The firm expects you to be an attorney for the majority of the position. Also, the ad says nothing about raising the salary once the candidate is admitted. Presumably the $15/hr rate will apply once the candidate is officially an attorney.

73: Yes, I'm the assclown who recently convinced our hiring committee not to lay off at least 15 first years who successfully demonstrated they are not biglaw cattle. What kind of assclown are you?

75: Aptly put. It goes without saying that it helps to know folks. More importantly, however, is how you get people to know you. If the only impression you leave with partners is that you're smart and a hard worker, you are a dime a dozen and not worth keeping around. The difference between now and three years ago is that you have to be creative to even get your foot in the door, since firms certainly won't be coming to you. Try striking up a relationship with a firm's client before even interviewing with that firm. You literally have to guarantee that you'll be bringing money in before your interview is over.

87- Reading Comp Fail. It says applicant should take the Illinois Bar in the Summer

Sometimes I suspect that there's not a single actual lawyer on this blog. Scotch with the client? Yeah, Biglaw associates do that allllllll the time. Totally. It's a big part of the job. Everyone please continue reading these comments for realistic, intelligent career advice from people who know what they're talking about.

this job actually sounds better than doc review...$5 more per hour and I just might take it. =(

So, 68, 90, you're basically saying that you have to be a white male to succeed?

Northwestern was also hawking this!

Go Northwestern!

Thompson Hine is infinitely worse than the firm that posted this ad.

Why I am slaving away for 60k while my pussy pass ex is making 200k at NYC Biglaw?

92, spot on.

Generally I'm entertaining clients by noon, 2 pm at the latest. It's just how, you know, business gets done.

- Everything I needed to know about lawyering I learned from Boston Legal

No Mich grads please.

Pfft, you people are just drinking scotch with your clients. I'm flying them to distilleries in Scotland where we rent out entire villages and then launch boats to raid the Irish coast. All while drinking scotch, of course.

92: Thanks for underscoring my point. Associates who aren't savy enough to place themselves in a situation where they actually get the opportunity to have a drink with a client (ie: convincing a partner to let you sit in on the tail end of a deposition without billing for it) are precisely the ones who are receiving pink emails. Sounds like you're part of the entitlement crowd.

94: If that's how you interpreted my post, you already slammed the door on yourself. Best of luck in the food service industry.

92: Thanks for underscoring my point. Associates who aren't savy enough to place themselves in a situation where they actually get the opportunity to have a drink with a client (ie: convincing a partner to let you sit in on the tail end of a deposition without billing for it) are precisely the ones who are receiving pink emails. Sounds like you're part of the entitlement crowd.

94: If that's how you interpreted my post, you already slammed the door on yourself. Best of luck in the food service industry.

USNEWS: Northwestern plummets in the rankings.

The young bucks at Sterling Cooper drink scotch with clients all the time. It is no big deal.

Umm, why would anyone want to drink with the social retards from their local sweatshop?

69 went to Depaul.

We go golfing all the time with clients. That is a challenge because you can't crush them, but if they are really good can't make a fool of yourself and then there is the 8 hours of drinking with "Here's another, finish that one before it gets warm."

Was this job circulated only to the TTTs of Chicago or did UC receive an email about this too?

In defense of 68, he or she didn't say it exactly in the most soft and fuzzy of ways, but I think they're right IF you aspire to biglaw and, ultimately, biglaw partnership. Although 100's post is hilarious and the scotch reference is not the best, I think 68 is, in spirit, dead on.

40 SAID : The cost of living in Chicago is ridiculous. That entire pathetic salary would all be spent on renting some closet sized apt.

40: I don't know where you're living but you can find a decent place on the north side or south side living on $27K a year, just not Lake View, Wrigleyville or Lincoln Park - thats where well paid and employed lawyers live. I know the thought of living near Asian, Hispanic and (EEK!) black people scares you, but give it a try. It may help broaden your horizons, break that arrogant streak of yours and perhaps get you a job as a real lawyer.

40 SAID : The cost of living in Chicago is ridiculous. That entire pathetic salary would all be spent on renting some closet sized apt.

40: I don't know where you're living but you can find a decent place on the north side or south side living on $27K a year, just not Lake View, Wrigleyville or Lincoln Park - thats where well paid and employed lawyers live. I know the thought of living near Asian, Hispanic and (EEK!) black people scares you, but give it a try. It may help broaden your horizons, break that arrogant streak of yours and perhaps get you a job as a real lawyer.

This ad was placed by Winston & Strawn.

This is pretty much exactly what is going to happen everyone who isn't creme de la creme.

Smaller law firms hire laterals because they can't afford to train them - they left that to the big guys who could pass on the cost to the client.

Big guys can't pass on the cost anymore. No one gets trained. No one has a job as an associate save the select few - daddy's boys and girls, top of the top, etc.

Everyone else becomes a paralegal-plus for the first couple of years and either sucks it up and waits for lightening to strike, opens their own shop (big cojones, weh), or does something else with the JD.

If ever there were a time for the ABA to institute a practical third year requirement, it is NOW.

110, are you serious? I live in the Chicago 'burbs and make twice that--and I can't afford to eat a lot of red meat after my rent and school loan are paid each month. My apartment's decent, but I share it (2br) with 2 other people to stretch the rent. I hope at least benefits are included with the $27k, because part time bar-tending probably won't fill that gap.

Whoever takes this position is an idiot. Shame on this firm for posting such a crap job and asking for top 25 plus a one year commitment. Shame on them.

I can only hope that nobody applies for the position or that those who do apply and are offered turn the job down flat (on a napkin, as mentioned earlier would be perfect).

As a former legal secretary, all I can say is charming. So nice to know that now the requirements for word processing at a law firm is a JD. I guess my old firm did me a favor by downsizing me: now I can apply for law schools so I can meet the new minimum standard!

113, why exactly is it such a big deal to market one's own legal services as an individual? That's what opening one's own shop is. I never went to law school expecting to be hired by someone else. I got lucky, I guess, clerked, worked at a large firm (and hated the awful politics and the constant feeling I was expected to prove myself to some douchebag I didn't respect) and now i'm doing what i had planned to do from the beginning (was asked to stay when I quit btw). Yeah, I guess it's easier to just collect a paycheck, but what about moving at your own pace, picking your own work, calling all your own shots, and competing with no one but yourself work-wise? Yes, I see the value of 'several heads', but I also believe in myself. How is it that so many of us spent all this money on this education and have no faith in, or desire to put all our hard work into, ourselves??? (clearly not meant to come across as narcissistic). It's just weird to see that so many lawyers are so fundamentally weak.

A job is a job. If you don't want it, don't take it. This firm is clearly just using its economic advantage to get cheap, qualified labor. Law school is an economic risk just like everything else, so don't be pissy when your investment doesn't pan out.

can we please stop all the bullshit about "gaining meaningful experience" that is just a pc way of saying you are getting railroaded

i am tired of that bullshit...people still have to be reasonably compensated for the work they do

nationwide boycott against working unpaid or insultingly low paying jobs for meaningful experience....im in

117 again, and btw, just in case you've been fooled by 'prestige', law is law. Just because 'securities' and 'M & A' sound fancy, in the doing, they don't require more smarts than being a good PI lawyer. Sorry to deflate that bubble for you guys who think you 'need' biglaw to even be able to breathe.

111

Have you priced apartments lately?

After taxes you would probably take home maybe $20,000 (and that is being generous)

Assuming you need to eat, wear clothes and you need to get to work, how much left over do you have for rent? Not much. I don't think 40 was looking to live in Lincoln Park. And you can pat yourself on the back for being so diverse, but rents are also high in the African American, Asian and Hispanic communities (remember, they tend to live in large extended families, where there may be 4 adults contribuing to the rent).

Let me guess, you voted for Obama, so there is no way you could be racist, is there?

Former West Sider (Austin community if you know where that is)

113, on what planet do you live on where small law doesnt train associates and biglaw does? I'm doing work at small law that my colleagues at biglaw HOPE to be doing in 2 years. They just have to hang on to their sanity through 2 more years of doc review. Personally, I've never done doc review, so I guess under your theory that means I'm not "trained"?

Well thank god for that.

PS are you a 1L or 2L?

14/41/60 - The "f" in federal is only capitalized to refer to a specific court/circuit/document per BB rule 8b2. For example, the Federal Constitution or the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, but the federal government or a federal clerk is not capitalized.

-not 25/63

123, ya, that was pretty obvious. Pretty sure the other people here who also clerked were glad to know that at least two people were bigger dorks than they are. Now we can add a third.

What's so "insulting" about this job? Law is an economy, one saturated with workers. I think economists must be insulted that most law students at TTT schools are too stupid to realize this fact.

If you think no job and $0 is better than having a job and $27k/year, you don't have to take this job. The firm only needs one person to sign on. Funny how the free market works in setting the cost of labor.

119 --

Go for it! Don't apply for any job that is beneath your paygrade.

When the economy does recover, however, and you're interviewing with firms (assuming you'll get an interview with no experience), watch the reaction you'll get from potential employers when you explain to them that the reason you have no experience is because you were boycotting "insulting low" paying jobs that provided meaningful experience.

81

You whiners!

Why does any of you feel like you are entitled to make $150,000 a year at 25 years of age with no actual work experience?

Because you worked really hard in school and went to a top law school?

Not any more! Wake up and smell the new reality. biglaw is on the way down. Midlaw will be the new Biglaw. Solo practices and small groups are also the wave of the future.

It is laughable that any of you associates would think that any partner would look to reduce thier PPP rather than unload the deadweight.

I can't wait until you run your own firm. Let's see if you wacko socialist liberals will be so generous with your own money.

125, TTT????? Try any law school. Clue, clients, the ones paying, know that there's no practical difference between an Ivy League education and a so called TTT one. Geez. This job is insulting because they are specifically looking for people at the top of their class from top schools who, most likely, have outrageous loans to do secretarial work for peanuts. It's insulting even to TTT'ers i'm sure. None of us worked as hard as we have to have some idiot suggest that we should have just gone to paralegal school. And I don't buy the experience is experience argument either. This firm is plain and simple trying to take advantage of desperate people, and, sadly, it will likely succeed.

Whoa whoa whoa 128, I was with you until you called me a wacko socialist! Can't a liberal agree with your argument?

right on 128. congrats, you've got a clue!!

@128, If our Associates are the norm you are going to be waiting a long, long time...!

128,

The point isn't that anyone is entitled to $150K, but that for $27K, you're not getting much of anything at all in the way of labor - of any kind. You can't hire a grade school teacher (for a 9 month commitment, at that) for that amount. You couldn't hire a plumber for $15/hr. But a corporate/securities attorney?

At any rate, I'm sure the market will sort this whole thing out. The only sure-fire winner will be the malpractice insurer (who gets to jack his rates once this clown car law firm inevitably f's up this arb).

@120-

"Just because 'securities' and 'M & A' sound fancy...they don't require more smarts than being a good PI lawyer."

Probably should keep this opinion to yourself (even the PI attorneys are laughing at you).

When you reach your 2L year come on back and I'll explain why.

So has anyone at least fake applied? We need to find out what firm this is so if you ever come across them you'll know what sort of crap you're up against.

134, i'm a lawyer. And instead of laughing at me, they're trying to figure out how to get your IP address and find you so that they can come beat your ass. Besides being as smart as you, they probably have more overall toughness too.

and btw, 134, i've done securities work at a large firm AND defended corporations against plaintiff's tort claims and the tort cases were always harder because they required more thinking and creativity than the securities cases did. Get over yourself.

136,

Yes, the PI attorneys are probably coming to "beat me up" with their "mental toughness."

You're not a lawyer, you're an idiot. You're not smart enough for PI, let alone corporate anything.

-134

oh, did I hurt the wittle baby's feeling's 138???? oh, so sowwy. ha ha ha ha ha ha. fools. a wise man said, never argue with a fool because from a distance no one can tell the difference. enjoy your ivory tower until in comes crashing down.....

136, 137,

BS. You're a 1L at some crap school who's scared to death that he won't be able to find decent work.

It's fine to be scared. It's not fine to lie about it and hide behind bravado.

134- why don't you just do it now?

Sorry, but anyone who thinks it takes brains to work corporate is not an experienced attorney. End of story.

138, 140, think what you want. if you need to think you're better than people because you're doing securities work, fine. the normal people get that there are turds like you floating around everywhere. there's no need for me to sit here and prove my point to you. other experienced lawyers out there are asking themselves why i am even wasting my time. so i will stop.

@142,

Yep, the market sure backs you up there. No money in corporate whatsoever. Those guys are a dime a dozen. Most IPOs are run by solos, actually.

Do any lawyers actually post here anymore?

Why did this firm bother to say its half paralegal work? Not everything at a legal job is research on interesting issues, drafting a brief or conducting a trial. There's always shit that needs to be done that doesn't require a legal education. So what?

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but there aren't any really great schools in the chicago area, so this isn't THAT surprising. U of C is a very good school, but not great.

If that firm is so high quality, why do they misspell "contracts" in their ad?

144- 142 didn't say anything about whether there's money in corporate. He said it doesn't take brains. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

146 -

That's a bit of coastal bias at play. U of C and NU are competitive with most of the T10 law schools, and I'd bet that if a Fordham or BU were dropped into the Chicago market, it'd probably start to look very similar to a Kent or a DePaul.

-T10 alum (practiced in Chicago for 5 years).

148,

Yes, and you need to work on your brains.

I'm sure there's an entire army of attorneys that could just tack up a shingle and start charging Sidley's corporate rates - it's just that those attorney would rather work in insurance defense instead.

It's the same reason brain surgeons charge more than dentists, idiot.

150- you continue to argue, without articulating it, that securities law requires more brains and therefore securities lawyers charge more per hour than personal injury lawyers, even thought the post you initially responded to was about brains, not money.

There are no corporate lawyers, not partners at your beloved Sidley, or even Wachtell, who make as much money as the most succesful personal injury attorneys- think purchase your own baseball team money. And yet, they don't charge more than corporate lawyers. Instead, they take a risk and are rewarded. You don't get rewarded for brains, you get rewarded for risk. Enjoy your bar trip.

It's sad that no one seems to have figured out this ad is a joke (and please, please don't say "but they had to pay to place this ad, so it has to be real!)

151,

When you have a high value service and no barriers to entry (after all, as you claim - any attorney could perform the service), then service providers will inevitably be drawn to the market.

As the supply of service providers increases and the demand remains constant, simple economic tells us price goes down.

If price remains high (let's say Sidley $100/hr. high), then there must be some barrier to entry for the market. Let's see.....what could that be.....I mean, after all, every attorney could do that work.....so how can they still charge those rates?

1. Corporate clients are bored with low rates, and prefer $1000/hr. rates?

Seems unlikely.

2. Other attorneys are simply too repulsed by the nature of corporate work that $1000/hr. is insufficient to lure them away from their lucrative insurance defense work?

Again, seems unlikely.

3. Every attorney cannot do that work? Could it possibly be that there are so very few attorneys that ARE SMART ENOUGH to do that work, that a meaningful enough barrier to entry exists that firms like Sidley can charge $1000/hr?

Cute idea with the bar trip. Mine ended over 8 years ago.

You might consider a Wikipedia article on basic economics. Look for a link on pricing theory. It should explain everything you need to know.

Then look for a text on finance theory. It might straighten up some of your ideas on risk in relation to brains.

And in respect to the 7 successful PI attorneys that you believe demonstrate that there is a meaningful barrier to entry to the PI market - you could, for comparisons sake - measure the collective wealth of those 7 against the collective wealth of - I dunno - one corporate/securities attorney (of the hundreds) that continued his career in an IB/PE firm (let's say George Roberts of KKR). I'm sure that you could divide Roberts in half, and still triple - I dunno - let's say Rusty Hardin.

Whew! What a chore this was. You're welcome.

153- Let's assume you bill at 1000 dollars an hour. That post probably took you six minutes to write, i.e., $100 of your time. And yet you did it for free. Clearly then, you are stupid and cannotfind anyone else pay you for your work.

153 is stupider than every client he has ever worked for, all of whom can aford to pay his bills.

@151,

"There are no corporate lawyers, not partners at your beloved Sidley, or even Wachtell, who make as much money as the most succesful personal injury attorneys- think purchase your own baseball team money. And yet, they don't charge more than corporate lawyers. Instead, they take a risk and are rewarded. You don't get rewarded for brains, you get rewarded for risk."

Yeah, I just need 2 more pieces of this.

First, corporate attorneys have earned more than PI attorneys a thousand times over. Average your 7 PI millionaires out with the bottom 30% of every law school class that can't find work and predictably tacks up a shingle as a PI attorney, and the average wage hovers around $7.25/hr.

Do the same with honest-to-God full-time corporate attorneys (not your PI specials practicing the "Yes, I do that, too!" strain of law), and I would guess the national average to be in the high 5 to low 6 figures.

Second, you don't get rewarded for risk. Any idiot can take risks and fail spectacularly. You get rewarded for successfully taking risk. If you think that its the people without brains that are successfully taking risks, then I invite you - risk away. Risk it all! Just don't ask for we "risk free" 6-figure earners to pay more in taxes so you can afford health insurance.

156- Its so cute the way you're so proud of being a six figure earner.

I can't believe that some people would think unemployment is better than this job. In one year the law grad who sat on their ass all year will have nothing on their resume and will have gained no legal skills, the person with this job will have experience, connections, and a decent job on their resume. First year associates are worthless. They don't even know where the courthouse is. This person will learn a niche area from the ground up. The employer is probably a solo so can't afford to risk big $ on a new law grad.

What is so wrong with starting out at the bottom and learning the profession from the ground up (and yes even the horribly offensive word processing) then earning your way to the big $$ - everyone just expects it to be handed to them because they graduated from law school. In the real world that means nothing.

153 is probably a fun guy to hang out with.

I once shit my pants during an interview when I farted in between interviewers while I was waiting in the conference room. Before I had a chance to leave, two interviewers came in. I noticed that this interview was shorter then the the first half.

Unemployment, on a strict monetary basis, is higher than the 27k. That is... if you qualify for unemployment. Most newly minted law school grads probably do not.

I live in the state of Pennsylvania. Here, the highest rate of compensation is $558/wk (I understand that NJ and Conn are higher, and NY is lower). Tack on an extra $25 from federal govt and you've already outearned $15/hr for 35 hours. Tack on tax consequences (you do not pay social security or medicare taxes on unemployment and state and local taxes vary from none at all to full tax depending on your state).

As for experience, sure, it's better to have experience than none. It would depend on what experience this firm is giving out. Presuming the experience is better than I could get while volunteering at some random public interest group, perhaps I'd consider it. If anything, I'd almost beg the law firm to allow me to "volunteer" my services for free and then keep claiming unemployment. I mean, I'd come out on top monetarily and the firm would too. Win-win, no?

Isn't this basically like a contract attorney position? A lot of contract attorney work is quasi-paralegal work.

27, right on! This economy will turn around and when it does, the paralegal or even contract attorney stint on your resume will hurt you. Call it elitist -- damn straight that's what it is -- but its also reality unless you want a government job or hitch up with a really small firm. And the salary of $27K for a paralegal job -- kids, you're really being taken advantage of. Before the economy hit the dust, the minimum big law salary for an entry level paralegal hovered in the 39-42K range, with no law degree. No self respecting paralegal would take in at $27K and, ask all of the lawyers out there willing to take paralegal jobs -- most law firms won't hire lawyers for this job and I've seen postings specifically that say "no lawyers please" to paralegal ads, the few there are. Any law firm putting out ads like the one being discussed here is a scum bag that you won't want to work for under any capacity.

163 is right about the paralegal salary in a major metro area. I'm not even sure this salary would entice an entry level paralegal with zero work experience.

153 is a valid corrective to the errors
asserted earlier.
the world is not binary--think thesis-antithesis
synthesis

153, you are wrong, but you need to believe what you're selling to keep putting up with the bullshit you deal with on a daily basis, so we will let you. On no planet, first off, is any Sidley or any partner anywhere, worth $1000/hr. The reason people keep paying that price is successful marketing and price-fixing. Here's how that works. Large firms capitalize on the perception that an education received from certain institutions is of substantially greater value than that of others (anyone who's been alive over 30 years and has actually had real life experience knows that perception is not based in reality). Then, tacitly, they agree that since their members went to xyz schools they get to charge xyz rates because, gosh darn it, they deserve it and, gosh darn it, they're smart too. Before you run your yap about why the rate for corporate work is so high, do some research on the rate that the partners in your firm who also defend clients against tort-type claims are charging. I am certain that you will see that those partners' rates are the same or even higher. Like I said, you need to feel good about yourself for all the bullshit you deal with day in and day out and we get that. It's okay.

166 again and I will acknowledge 153 that grades are also a part of the "barrier to entry" equation. but if you really think that being top 10 percent at Harvard means that you are inherently smarter or more well equipped for this profession than top 25 percent at NU or some other equivalent, you have serious problems and I suggest you never leave your desk bc it is only in that little universe that you can survive. the real world doesn't operate that way. And, btw, by your comments here, you've demonstrated to several people your very limited intelligence. it's a good thing this is an anonymous message board eh??

166 again and I will acknowledge 153 that grades are also a part of the "barrier to entry" equation. but if you really think that being top 10 percent at Harvard means that you are inherently smarter or more well equipped for this profession than top 25 percent at NU or some other equivalent, you have serious problems and I suggest you never leave your desk bc it is only in that little universe that you can survive. the real world doesn't operate that way. And, btw, by your comments here, you've demonstrated to several people your very limited intelligence. it's a good thing this is an anonymous message board eh??

Some of you guys are entitled assclowns. I also have over $200K in debt, and had zero job prospects coming out of law school (bottom 5% at a regional T2) in 2007. Guess what? I deferred my loans for two years, started a firm with a friend, and we are now HIRING in a large Texas city. We pay decently ($35/hr for billable contract work, but we don't guarantee that you'll have 40 hours a week, at least to start), and we are getting hundreds of resumes from people who are more than qualified (former BigLaw Associates, federal clerks, etc). Go get that job (if the people seem cool and you think you might want to work there) and stick with it for the year. It's far better than a year of document review, if you can even get it in this market. Please tell me you lived like a student while you were a student - you can surely do it for at least another twelve months.

And yeah, the first two years out of law school sucked like nothing else, but now life is pretty damn good and business is growing by leaps and bounds. If this were rocket science, people, we wouldn't have gone to law school.

right on 169. it is soooo ridiculous for people here to bitch and moan about job prospects with the training that we have. ridiculous. and i feel sorry for the people who act like bc they are in biglaw they are awesome, but when that gets on thin ice it becomes "well, i'm smarter than you." bullshit. why the F did they even go to law school in the first place. and who's smarter now????

169, I run an LRW business that puts out great work (no not from india and have clerking and large firm experience). If you have an email address or website that you feel okay posting here, I'd like to send you a link to my site and see if we can talk about some of your LRW. Rate is 80/hr, but in actuality, I give a flat rate up front that works out to more like 40/hr. Have my own westlaw, which is included in the price. My clients have been very happy so far and my service is good for short term LRW when you can't do the work yourself, need an answer, but don't have the physical resources. Think about it. I don't want to post the site here for obvious reasons. Thanks.