Mamas Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Contract Attorneys
The world of contract attorneys isn’t our primary focus around here. We make occasional forays into that territory, but for the most part we leave it to more specialized sites, like Temporary Attorney (aka Tom the Temp).
If the temp-attorney world is your cup of tea, however, then check out this interesting new site, which several ATL readers have emailed us about: Big Debt, Small Law. We reached out to Law Is 4 Losers — the angry author, who still works as a contract attorney (he just finished a New York project for a large national law firm) — and asked him about the site’s origins. He explained:
I was prompted to start the blog for two reasons. First is the membership solicitation from the ABA asking me for $250 in dues and listing all the wonderful things that they’ve been doing of late to “improve” this profession (curiously, outsourcing my job to India via ethics opinion 08-451 was not among them).Another reason was my recent NYS Law license renewal of $350. There was no waiver provision or extension for unemployed lawyers. [W]e contract attorneys have to pay health insurance, bar dues, CLE fees, and other obligations out of our own pocket. And at the $28 an hour straight-time now offered by NYC Biglaw (or the $40K small firms are paying), this is a hell of a lot of money. Forcing people to choose between their rent and their job is unconscionable….
I hope to warn incoming One L’s and prospective law students about the reality out there behind the slick admissions brochures and silver-tongued charlatan deans who will lie thru their teeth to get their hands on that Sallie Mae loan money. I’d also like to lobby the state bars to offer fee waivers or extensions on dues to unemployed lawyers who can prove financial hardship.
If you’re an associate and feeling sorry for yourself, perhaps because your pay has been cut or layoffs are taking place at your firm, Law Is 4 Losers doesn’t want to hear it:
Bad as things are for associates, they are 100 times worse for doc reviewers. We’ve been losing jobs every few weeks or months ever since leaving law school, having no “careers” to speak of, and also no health insurance, severance, or savings.
His most recent blog post — deeply depressing, but scabrously funny — describes the misery of temping at two of Biglaw’s biggest names: Paul Weiss and Sullivan & Cromwell. And he doesn’t pull his punches.
The post starts off with bitter general observations about the practice of law and the state of American legal education. Then it gets to the juicy stuff, focused on specific firms:
At Paul Weiss, for example, they crammed 120 people into a basement room that NYC fire code rated for 80. This was in 2005. Like steerage passengers on the Titanic, we labored in the bowels of the building, right alongside the boilers and HVAC equipment. Lacking air conditioning and adequate ventilation, many came down with colds that went untreated due to the lack of health insurance. A cockroach problem soon erupted due to the crumbs and food garbage strewn about the cellar floor, which was treated with multiple Raid roach fogger bombs. The morning after the exterminators finished, dead roaches littered our keyboards and even crawled, stunted but still living, from the floppy drives and servers!We were paid $21 an hour, straight time, and required to work from 9 am to 11 pm seven days a week. Forbidden to use the firm’s lavish upstairs restrooms, they had all 120 of us split a pair of airplane sized-bathrooms that were on the Concourse level under the Rock Center, open to the public and a favorite bathing spot for the homeless. One affable homeless chap named “Bones” would use the lone toilet in there as a foot bidet, rinsing his diabetic ulcer in the excrement-caked shitpot and yelling “I’m in here motherfucker!”every time one of us coders needed to relieve himself. Most of us just went next door and used the Heartland Brewery’s bathroom (did I mention that restroom breaks of over six minutes had to be deducted from one’s timesheet? As a coder, bowel movements can quickly cut into the bottom line).
Shit out of luck, indeed.
The next stop on my vagabond coding career was Sullivan & Cromwell, that whitest of the white shoe firms. This dump has three levels of sunless, underground bunkers where the temp attorneys and their documents are warehoused, far away from the skyline corner offices where the serious shitpaper gets pushed. It’s like those alternative communities of urban legend that one reads about online: the subway’s “mole people” and such.You are instructed by your temp agency pimp to meet in the lobby of 125 Broad Street at 9 am sharp, where you assemble as a group to be marched upstairs and “processed” like that busload of inmates from The Shawshank Redemption. Told to dress in a “suit and tie” for the first day, they soon march you downstairs to the dungeon where the “coders for life” toil in pajamas and sweatpants, chanting “new fish, fresh fish, we got new fish today” at the suit - clad newbies who are starting the first day of the rest of their lives. Many start openly weeping into their spiffy leather Perry Ellis portfolios, some even freshly monogrammed as recent law school graduation gifts. Many start bleating mindlessly for the mothers, returning to an infantile state as the overwhelming sadness and abject disappointment slowly seeps in. As I said, welcome ye to the first day of the rest of your life!
To the outside world, Sullivan & Cromwell looks like a well-oiled machine. Behind the scenes, it appears to be anything but:
Due to their colossal ineptitude, complete lack of common sense, and probably outright billing fraud, squads of coders arrive for the mandatory 14 hour “workdays” only to be kept idly waiting for hour upon endless hour as documents are loaded, clarifications are sought, software is configured, the moon rises in Taurus and Capricorn descends into autumn, etc. It’s rare to squeeze more than 45 minutes of actual coding time into a 14 hour day. Not knowing the Sullivan drill, many newbie coders turn down Sullivan gigs because the long mandatory hours rightly terrify them.But us veterans know the old “Clownshop” (as the temps call it) all too well. The waiting coders nap, play cards, vandalize the workstations and so on while waiting for documents and instructions that rarely arrive. Some even operate wire fraud scams and lotteries on the S&C computers, thus “double dipping” and making real bank. A cool Nigerian coder even once used the break-room hot plate to cook us all an authentic African ox-tail stew, which ended with a dessert course provided by raiding the partner’s pantry freezer and ripping off a case of ice-cream sandwiches that were meant for some lame Merrill Lynch client meeting or whatever.
More likely Goldman Sachs. But anyway….
Of course, the clients are billed regardless, since firms of this caliber are as immune to the ethics rules as Typhoid Mary was to disease. It’s always some solo ambulance chaser who ends up disbarred for screwing up a $1500 fender bender whiplash case, while Sullivan and the other white-shoe thieves rip off Fortune 500 client’s cash by the wheelbarrow load with time-wasting make-work and pointless re-reviews of the same irrelevant documents.
“[F]irms of this caliber are … immune to the ethics rules” — well, we don’t know if we’d go that far. Even S&C partners aren’t above the law. Remember Carlos Spinelli-Noseda, the former Sullivan partner who resigned from the bar after defrauding clients and the firm to the tune of $500,000?
We’ve just given you excerpts. Read the full post, which contains some choice observations about various Paul Weiss partners and S&C case analysts, over here.
Shitlaw Primer, Part I: Life of a Coder [Big Debt, Small Law]
The Upton Sinclair Of Temp Lawyer Hell [Temporary Attorney: The Sweatshop Edition]
(170) Comments
Comments
FIRST AGAIN!
Every day I think God I'm not a contract attorney.
Agreed: it must suck to be forced to work at gunpoint, unable to quit your job lest you be hunted down like nothing more than a feral dog.
What's that? He wasn't forced to work at any of these places? He could have left at any point? And now he's bitching about (a) his poor career decisions, and (b) his poor performance in law school that led him to a contract attorney job?
Waaah. There are a lots of people in this country who would like any job, much less one where you sit on your ass all day and stare at a computer -- not, say, fit parts on an assembly line or tar a roof under the blazing sun.
This person is the epitome of the whiner culture that is drawn to law school.
3 - I think the author was arguing that he was misled - by the "slick admissions brochures and silver-tongued charlatan deans."
Anyone who goes to law school TODAY and gets stuck doing this probably has only himself/herself to blame.
This is very important. Law school is generally a fraud and ATL, because of its strong visibility to law schools, law firms and law students, needs to expose this fraud.
Note: I am a biglaw associate from a T14 law school and it angers me to have friends who are massively in debt with no career potential in the practice of law b/c they were the victims of the fraud that the ABA and most american law schools perpetuate on a daily basis. This is hopefully the start of something big.
This is very important. Law school is generally a fraud and ATL, because of its strong visibility to law schools, law firms and law students, needs to expose this fraud.
Note: I am a biglaw associate from a T14 law school and it angers me to have friends who are massively in debt with no career potential in the practice of law b/c they were the victims of the fraud that the ABA and most american law schools perpetuate on a daily basis. This is hopefully the start of something big.
This is very important. Law school is generally a fraud and ATL, because of its strong visibility to law schools, law firms and law students, needs to expose this fraud.
Note: I am a biglaw associate from a T14 law school and it angers me to have friends who are massively in debt with no career potential in the practice of law b/c they were the victims of the fraud that the ABA and most american law schools perpetuate on a daily basis. This is hopefully the start of something big.
Although lawis4losers has a point about the fraudulent advertising practices carried out by law schools today, he gets no sympathy from me for his poor career choices. This peon has worked at some fine places with comfortable surroundings, amenities and legal acoutrements yet he compares his working experience to someone working in an OSHA violation infested shack located in Malyasia? He has himself to blame for not being qualified to work as an associate for a peer firm. This cretin makes three times the wages of that of a short order cook in McDonalds and he has the unmitigated gall to complain? He should be thankful to be in the presence of prestige alone!
3,
I rather tar a roof than be a contract attorney.
Whatever, they should have studied harder. I went to a real law school, worked hard, made law review, moot court finalist, etc., and my salary still got cut by $10K this year.
9, guessing you have never tarred roofs for a living.
I'd love to get some additional perpsective from somebody who is a biglaw associate from a T14 law school. Anybody know where we can find one?
Does anyone know if this is very important or not?
This is why you *never* get off the associate track- go to a small firm or government job, get some experience and be a real lawyer as opposed to a contract attorney with no future.
If Partner Emeritus is a legal legend, why is he never first?
11, at least you are outside and are productive.
I don't get why people do this job. There are other ways to pay the bills, even if all you're making is minimum wage flipping burgers at McDonald's. It sounds better than temping. And if it's about school debt, I know it's hard to get student loans discharged through bankruptcy, but it's not impossible, is it?
Give this guy a book deal.
15, and dizzy.
I know a few people, mostly women with young children, who made the choice to work as contract attorneys for a few years, did a great job at it, and went on to successful careers. One, a good friend of mine, established good enough client relations working on a particularly lengthy trial that when she asked to become a full time associate at the firm the request was granted, and she became a partner within five years, later moving on to a general counsel position.
Currently my title is "contract attorney", but I asked to have it changed when I read this blog and realized how the term was perceived. I do sophisticated legal work but get paid at an hourly rate, half my billables. Which means I can make $10K in a month billing 50 hours. Sounds horrible, doesn't it?
Depressing.
16, yes, it is impossible.
16, it's pointless to bore everyone with the intricacies of multi-pronged tests, but when you read opinions about people who successfully discharged student loans in bankruptcy, all of them would rather be deeply indebted contract attorneys. It's usually "Debtor suffers from [insert chronic disabling medical condition] and their sole source of income is [absurdly low number] in social security/disability payments, which exceeds their monthly expenses of [rattle of figures accounting for miserable lifestyle of poverty, which is permanent because of their medical condition].
Is anyone surprised to hear this about S&C? Of course they're all completely incompetent. As a federal clerk, I've read some of their briefs, and the crap they argue is astounding. I would expect that sort of shitty work from a first semester 1L, but apparently it was all coming from partners.
10- Many chose the same route as you and were laid off this year.
There are tons of laid off associates doing contract work, now.
Also- most of the billing is pass-through. No more mark-ups. Clients aren't that clueless, anymore.
I know of many law firms in NC that pay $50/hour for contract attorneys, and they get to work from home most of the time. There's something fishy about some of the statements in this story.
there's a flood of unemployed lawyers in nyc...driving rates down
19 - is your good friend the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause?
Whoever it is, I'm sure they do exist and you're not full of shit.
Like what, 25, the forced 14 hours a day, 7 days a week? Yeah, this is bull.
16, you need to demonstrate an undue hardship. See 11 usc 523(a)(8).
Law Is For Losers is a talented writer and a keen observer of a sub-culture within the legal profession. It makes no sense to attack his "attitude" or to pass judgment on his career choice. What is important is his vivid portrayal of a relatively new, brutal reality for thousands of lawyers. His observations about law schools and contract work are dead on.
We should ask how something like this happened and consider the implications for the future of the law rather than reflexively trying to kill the messenger.
Keep writing, Law Is 4 Losers. You are the Upton Sinclair and the Tom Wolfe of contract lawyers. Forget the book deal. Straight to documentary.
It is officially time -- long past time, actually -- for Partner Emeritus to be permanently retired.
Whatever law student/contract attorney/1L is posting as PE: the posters who write that they enjoy and look forward to your postings are trolls. They don't mean it. At this point, no one could possibly mean it. Unlike the comparatively timeless Frat Stud/Fraternity Lothario, PE stopped being funny almost immediately.
30, you are absolutely correct. I'd rather work in White Plains then be a contract attorney.
There but for the grace of god go I
If I were a contract attorney, I'd be working on organizing a union. Of course I'd also move to DC and try to get a federal attorney position.
I have been a contract attorney in D.C. for the past year and a half. My experience is as polar opposite to what's described as humanly possible.
I need to bill 50 hours a week on doc review for a massive litigation, but can do so at whatever times I like, so I basically make my own schedule. We work out of a rented space on the fifth floor of a small building near Dupont. We have windows, a bathroom, and free food on Fridays. I earn $42 an hour.
I think what's been described is unique to that legal hellhole that is NYC. Lat is too NYC-myopic to realize that life is much, much, much better for contract attorneys elsewhere so he doesn't even think to contrast this guy's experience with a contract attorney's story in another city.
To the posters who think that "good grades" and "good schools" are enough in this market, you're an idiot.
People from all levels of schools are being laid off. There is a glut of lawyers in the market. I would love to continue to collect unemployment, but it doesn't last forever. I can't get a contract lawyer gig, because my admission to the bar is still pending (yes, I passed NY)
I would work at McDonald's, but guess what, I can't because it pays less than unemployment, and I have to service my debt. I worked full time during law school, and my job was supposed to be there at the end, but the financial markets collapsed, and there went my job.
Oh, and no, you cannot discharge your student debt in bankruptcy.
I have tried to find jobs in other areas, but no one will look at me, because I have a JD, and they "fear" that they will lose me when the market improves. Also, most jobs that will look are 100% commission, which is shit in this economy, or pay so low that I will not be able to pay loans, rent, and food. I'm not looking for a lot of money, just $50K, and I can't even find that. Holy hell, can this economy just effing improve already!
It's experiences that this that are meaning record applications for the government entity for which I work. My main duty is litigation, but I interview applicants on the side and do a lot of outreach to law schools. Life is good where I am at, but a colleague just left for DOJ at GS 15, Step 2- well into 6 figures here in DC. He went to a TTT and has six years experience in govt litigation. Will he own a house in the Hamptons? No, but he's as happy as a clam right now to be making that salary at about 45-50 hours per week.
Read the top post on the blog. The guy/gal is a VERY talented writer!
Hell, I made $30 / hour...as a law student...in Florida...in 2000...while attending what most here would refer to as a "TTT". This guy was doing this shit work in 2005, at the peak, for $28 an hour?
Something tells me this guy failed big time at being an attorney. Hell, to call what he is doing being an attorney is an insult to attorneys. If he is looking for someone to blame, perhaps he should look in the mirror once the homeless guy is done washing his feet in the toilet.
I work on a contract project right now, have for about 7 months. I am not lying when I say half the people on my contract would be the incoming class at the best firm in a second tier market three years ago. (note i'm not saying NY or DC). We are all top 25 schools, top 20% of our class, some with MBAs from top 20 schools. It's depressing.
On the bright side, we've basically started running our own law firm out of our doc review room. We've got a transactional department complete with tax attorneys, an l&e lawyer, two criminal people and a handful of commercial lit. That you [firm that may or may not be skadden] for paying me to run my own firm!!!
I bet this is the type of guy who only applies to Big Law firms. Here's an idea, go be a prosecutor or PD. At least you'll be doing real lawyer stuff and not playing solitaire in a furnace room all day.
I wonder if these budding young lawyers have researched NY labor law. In most jurisdictions, if you are paid an hourly wage you are entitled to overtime, regardless of your "professional" status. With these folks working 12-14 hour days...the firms could be looking at a big overtime class action hit....
19 sounds like some sort of high class hooker.
"If you had my love,
And I gave you all my trust...
Would you clerk me?
And if somehow you knew that your law would be untrue,
Would you lie for me?
And call me Lady?
"You said you want a spot and you've got to have it all,
But first there are some things you need to knoooow.
If you want to clerk,
And do all of my work,
I need you to be wise
Or it's got to end, yeee-ah.
I don't want you...
Trying to clerk for me...
And I end up unhappy.
No me gusta, y no me gusta...
So before I doooo....
Give myself to you....
I have to know the truth
If I spend my life term with you!"
The style reminds me of Michael Herr's "Dispatches," but the horrors of coding documents in S&C's basement don't really compare with those of Hue City or Khe Sanh, or even with the frustrations and petty humiliations that most working people have to put up with year after year, if they're lucky enough to stay employed. Three years of law school is just that, only three years, a straight hitch, no big deal.
As for the contempt S&C and Paul Weiss display towards document reviewers, that's what one would expect from Big Time NYC law. These firms typically breed in their principals and employees contempt for almost everybody, including themselves. Learning to ignore these people is a valuable step towards adulthood for any young lawyer.
I worked as a contract attorney, and I didn't find it too terrible. Sure, the work was boring, but I made $35/hr + OT for basically listening to music and skimming over documents all day, and I saved up some money so that I could go back to school and hopefully get out of the legal profession.
female contract attorney's are good for one thing ... bangin'!! they can't help themselves but whore it up over associates, and i love it!! i'll readily admit i am not the best looking guy, but i have banged some seriously hot female contract attorney's just because they seem attracted to someone who, in this economy, is making a reasonable living. life is good!
This guy is a hundred times a better writer than that breadline chick. Lat, you should give him a column here.
47, stfu you chauvinist pig. You are probably flipping burgers in your spare time, no chance that the likes of S&C would even consider YOU a contract attorney. Reality: JD worth zero, TTT who cares. Good luck to everyone who thinks some law firm job will be their security.
I'd rather be a ghetto-ass contract attorney than a TTT associate in the DC office of McDermott Will an Emery.
Regarding contracts attorneys
I am a 2007 graduate of AU law. I recognize that the economy is a little in flux right now, but why is everyone knocking on us contracts-practitioners? Individuals are still entering and breaching contracts in this bad economy, so i can't see why everyone here assumes the good attorneys are litigators as opposed to contract specialists. Its sexist and racist, really!
Real messed up!
This story is great. All you idiots stop arguing about whether contract attorneys are idiots or deserve their crappy jobs or didn't have to take those jobs - the cool part about the story is the exposing of Paul Weiss and S&C! I want to hear more!
51, um no. It's WCL Law.
Billing fraud is RAMPANT in BigLaw. If I were a GC, I would never hire a firm that bases compensation on so-called "billable" hours.
I am sorry, but this shit just makes me laugh.
Am I a bad person?
I am a conTTTract attorney.
55,
You are a bad person and you have plenty of company here.
People point and laugh at contract attorneys; people also point and laugh at Biglaw associates for blowing their productive years for endless grinding in a hamster wheel, never becoming partners, while gaining heart attack weight from endless Seamless web meals while alienating wives and family.
Does anyone point and laugh at Biglaw partners?
More importantly, does anyone point and laugh at you? I suspect yes.
30, your fascination with this "amazing writer" is scary, and reeks of the same mental illness latent in much of this manifesto. related to some truth, perhaps, but closer to ted kaczynski than nabokov.
I LOVE Lady Soto
36-I can relate. Went to a top 5 law school, worked for a top 10 firm. I've been laid off since March, and I have 3 kids and a wife to feed.
At my V5 firm, we use temp attorneys for two things and two things only: (1) inflating the client's bill and (2) foot stools.
This piece -- well-written (if over-the-top), engaging and imaginative -- needs also to be seen as the first-person work of fiction that it is. By "fiction" I don't mean "false;" but this is a story well-told. It is identifiable as a work of this century, in that it lacks any acknowledgement of personal responsibility on the part of the author. In this sense, while it may be to the author "the truth," it is not "the whole truth," or "anything but the truth." The comments contain more of the latter.
I've advised college students thinking about law school for decades, and have always tried to help them figure out the critical question: what would life be like on the other side of law school? After investigating for themselves, some of them applied, some of them did not. And some who went reconsidered, and found a truer calling. For them, the "whole truth" involved finding something they enjoyed and were good at.
This young man needs to be a writer, not a lawyer. The good news is that he has the opportunity to realize this before he turns 50.
62: or "so help the author God!" Quotes """""""" rofl
Oh, this is sad.
I worked as a "contract attorney" in NYC--though I've always referred to myself as a consultant--for 2 years while trying to figure out whether to go to another firm or switch careers. I graduated from a top law school and worked with a high-end recruiter to secure "contract" positions at 4 different firms throughout these two years (until I joined a mid-sized, lovely firm as an associate). I demanded "substantive work"--i.e., no straight doc review--at least $75/hour, and flexibility (make my own hours or work from home). The jobs were amazing and not difficult to come by. Rich legal and intellectual experiences, excellent money with a totally flexible schedule, nothing but respect from the firms I worked for. I am still in close touch with the partners at all of them and had options to return full-time if I wished.
The key, for me, was setting my bar high and sticking to it (because recruiters will always offer you less than you demand) and being willing to venture into unique boutique practices. I'm a general litigator but I worked at a real estate shop, a tax boutique, a contruction focused firm . . . I brought everything I learned to my new practice and it makes me a better litigator.
Point is, contract work can be spectacular if you have the credentials to create a legal consultancy (independent consultants can benefit substantially come tax time). If you don't have the creds to do anything but doc review, my advice would be to find any job other than that. Sounds soul-deadening.
Latham turned a bunch of its first year associates into TTT contract attorneys. Nice work Latham.
Kind Sirs,
To those persons voicing complaints about contract attorney positions: Shake that most irrational fancy and accept your good fortune in times of vast economic disturbance.
Most benevolent regards,
J. Huffington Monkey, Esq.
Have you ever actually talked to a contract attorney? If you can find one who went to a second tier school like Suffolk, you're lucky. For most of them, it's a miracle they can navigate the subway and find the office. For the level of 'work' they do, there's no reason we couldn't just hire college grads with 3.0+ GPA's.
I went from top third of a third tier (whoo-hoo!) to two years of contract attorney hell. Like some earlier commenters mentioned, I kept my eye on the prise and eventually landed a big-law gig...where it remains as dysfunctional and fucked up as ever.
Lawis4Losers is dead-on accurate and hilarious in his observations. ABA won't stop unless its stopped.
This guy needs to be on ATL today. I stopped reading the breadline weeks ago because, for the same reason I stopped watching Gilligan's Island when I was 7: she will never get a job.
60/36 - expressing my solidarity. T10, V20, mid-level, unemployed since February but plenty of references. The market is brutal right now, and I hate each of the few options I have.
This is why you go to state school, kids, and study your asses off.
That, or don't go to law school to begin with.
The sense of entitlement is sickening.
65 - you're a douche. Latham didn't turn anyone into a "TTT contract attorney." Most of the attorneys who were laid off by Latham got $100,000 in severance (and got to collect unemployment). That gives you a hell of a lot of freedom to do something else with your life. You could even, gasp, start your own practice and not have to work for someone else. I know, it's a crazy idea.
Why can't ATL hire someone like this - who actually knows how to write?
You're all idiots.
CONTRACT ATTYS ARE BILLED ON A PASS THROUGH BASIS, NOW.
In the past, law firms would charge 150/hr for contractors and the jig's been up for about a year and a half or so. Client usually pays agency directly and not firm....sometimes the client will bypass the firm all-together and utilize some discovery mgmt company to kickstart a project.
The only people inflating the client's bill are associates trying to hold onto their jobs.
That post by law4losers is funny, but it is also a bit scary since it a true tale of misery.
A lot of laid-off Biglaw associates are going to be doing "contract attorney" work to get by until the economy improves (however long that ends up being).
Welcome to hell.
boo hoo. You people could have obtained secure employment by working for the government. But no, you saw dollar signs instead at BigLaw. Guess what? I don't care you lost your job and I don't feel sorry for you. We all make our own choices in life and have to live with them.
I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee.
I concur with other posters: Give this guy a job writing for ATL and fire Roxanna (or whatever her name is). At least this guy is funny.
agree that this guy is a great writer and is hilarious
76 is absolutely right. Every new attorney could and should work for the government. I, for instance, have only applied for 20 government positions since clerking. Clearly, I have not been trying hard enough.
80- if you were a federal court clerk and still can't get a gov't attorney position, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe your problem is that you only applied for 20 positions. Get real, man.
80- if you were a federal court clerk and still can't get a gov't attorney position, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe your problem is that you only applied for 20 positions. Get real, man.
80: Don't worry, Obama will take care of us all. Government jobs for everybody.
The post on that blog is absolutely correct. I am a ten plus year attorney and making decent coin compared to other people that I went to college with. I have never cracked 150K a year and for the first few years made not much at all, but now I earn enough to support myself and my family. But every year there are more and more attorneys coming out. I have no idea where they are going to work, and neither do they. I had some pretty good contacts when I graduated. If I did not, I do not know how I would have made it.
If you are at a Top 14 school then you are in good shape. (Even then see the earlier post about Getchell). Other than that, please do not go to law school until you have gone to your hometown and actually sat down with a few lawyers and have some concept what the practice of law is like in the real world. The real world is nothing like biglaw.
Being a lawyer has its great moments. It is not the license to print money it once was.
Finally, my law firm recently posted a help wanted ad for a legal secretary. We received many resumes, including at least three from J.D.'s. Imagine that? That is what the real world is like right now for J.D.s with no contacts.
There ain't no mountain high enough,
Ain't no valley low enough,
Ain't no river wide enough,
To keep me from getting to you
Boot Elie and bring this guy on for ATL. He writes 100x better than Mystal!! I laughed out loud more in that Law is for Losers post than I have reading any of the ATL posts.
He's got a point about the ABA. The profession has become a breeding ground for misery--bigfirm partners and associates, contract attorneys, and the unemployed alike. But the ABA sits by and does nothing. We need these ttt law school "factories" shut down now! We need to stop sending legal work to India! And we need to hold law schools accountable when their graduates can't find legal work.
Of course he could look into leaving that cesspool known as NYC and looking around at other parts of the country which are affordable and actually have some work available. I am not sure where that is if the only experience you have is document review.
I have heard that medical schools and nursing schools actually limit the amount of graduates to prevent a glut. Not sure if this is true. There are way to many law students out there. And most of them have a completely unrealistic view of what the practice of law is like. BigLaw is not realy law. And you are probably not going to get a BigLaw job anyway. It is like being the best basketball player in your cyo league and therefore just assuming you'll get an NBA job. It ain't gonna happen.
64 you graduated from a "top law school", the problem is with the thousands of people graduating from non "top" law schools this year. Where are they going to work?
Advice to anyone considering law school: If you don't get into the T14, don't go. You will just end up like the poor sou
51 I hope you were joking.
Whoops: pressed post accidentally.
Post 91 cont.: You will just end up like the poor soul who wrote the blog post linked above.
I've been a contract attorney in NYC with substantive work ($85/hr) and done one real doc review project ($40 with 1 1/2 over time). The former was great, the latter was not that bad. It felt a little like free money, because you really just get money for sitting around and skimming docs. Now, I haven't done it for more than a month and I get it that it gets unbearable very fast.
But my real advice to new lawyers would be (and I would do it if I were 25 again and not a single mom): Do as much research as you can and find a sole practitioner or small firm lawyer who does exactly what you want to do. Make a deal with him or her to learn the robes from them for a modest salary (hell, even take on more debt for that, if you can). Then learn everything you can about how to practice that type of law in real life and learn about marketing and the business of law. Wait one or two years, then open your own practice. Realize that there is a huge market out there for decent affordable lawyers. It is almost impossible to come by a smart, knowledgeable, ethical divorce attorney in NYC for under $300 for example and yet, you could do a decent living if you charged less and be smart on overhead expenses. Don't fall prey to greed and just aspire to be a good lawyer....the rest will fall into place. Listen to Tony Robbins every day, if you must, and don't listen to frustrated associate/partner assholes who are in a rut and lost the ability to think outside the box. Otherwise, become a dental hygienist.
Any dean and any law school professor and any career services lady who does not start out the year with a talk to law students about what the real world is like should be fired.
62, the nice thing about comments is that there is no need for polite face to fact chatter. So I will say what would not be possible in polite society: you are a butthole. That is not a work of fiction, but an objective statement of fact.
94 - I think it is a better deal is to just work as a dental hygienist than to work at a small shop.
Higher pay, little debt and much better hours.
97 if you're just interested in a steady salary, you are correct. Hence my suggestion.
If you marry someone like a teacher or a nurse who will be able to get family plan health insurance and pay to help pay the mortgage and child costs then you will be able to make it in small law. If not, you are really going to have to hustle out there and it is not easy.
Wait until you have two kids and a mortgage and then let me know if you are interested in anything other than a steady salary?
51, do you know what a contract attorney is?
This blog certainly paints a grim picture, and I suspect it may be largely true. But I don't think this is the case for all contract attorneys (in fact, I know it isn't). After being a "real" lawyer for almost two years and rushing out the door every day with unfinished work so that I could get to daycare before they closed to get my son, I chose to quit my job. I'm lucky I was financially able to do so. At the time I wasn't sure I would practice law again. But a few months later a friend mentioned that he knew someone who was looking for a contract attorney. I talked to the guy, and I have been working for him close to a year now. For me, it's great. I have an office downtown (with a window!), or I can work from home. My hours are flexible and it's part-time, which gives me more time for my kids. And it's not all document review--in fact, only a small part of what I do is document review. My work is actually pretty interesting most of the time.
The biggest difference is that this blogger is a k atty for a large firm, whereas I work for a small practice. It's a difference in firm culture. Not all k attys are treated the same way, and not all k attys are k attys because they can't get a "real" job.
Do folks who find themselves in this contract law hell ever consider throwing up a shingle and starting their own firm? Of course its a lot harder than it sounds, but it is what my parents did when they couldn't get the most highly desired legal jobs when they came out of law school in the 70s. The funny thing is that although it meant that they were doing mostly perrsonal injury and not complex M&A transactions or international arbitrage, they certainly made very good money.
Therer is more to going to Law School than working at BIG LAW at any cost.
There were a lot less lawyers in the country in the 70's when your parents got out of law school.
there are different types of contract attorneys...understand that the kind that the blog writer is talking about the kind hired by biglaw firms and stuffed into large rooms. These folks represent the majority of people with contract attorney titles....so for the folks talking about their exception to the rule story...shut the hell up. Ur story is the exception and does not represent what thousands of attorneys do as contract attorneys in major cities.
81- I was a federal law clerk, and I have applied for almost every single federal government position I have become aware of. Prime example of my frustration: I have done tons of consumer fraud work and applied to four different FTC postings with no luck (not even an interview).
What you don't seem to realize is that every position posted on USAJobs or through other avenues gets hundreds, if not thousands, of applications. The Honors Programs hire like 20 people a year. Oh, and there are tons of federal clerks running around. It's not as simple as you make it out to be.
I'm convinced that a lot of those applications just get thrown in the trash without being reviewed.
- 80
there are different types of contract attorneys...understand that the kind that the blog writer is talking about the kind hired by biglaw firms and stuffed into large rooms. These folks represent the majority of people with contract attorney titles....so for the folks talking about their exception to the rule story...shut the hell up. Ur story is the exception and does not represent what thousands of attorneys do as contract attorneys in major cities.
Law school is a BUBBLE. Young people saw dollar signs a few years ago and went to law schools chasing the dollar. This lead to hundreds of new law schools and hundreds of thousands of un-employable, debt-ridden law graduates chasing dreams that existed only for a tiny minority. It is no different than any other bubble we have seen (housing, dotcom, etc.). It is alarming how quiet the mainstream has been on this sad sad turn of events where young people have basically "bought a bridge in brooklyn" to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I was a temp atty 3 years ago for a couple of months before landing a gov job, and was an avid reader of law is 4 losers and tom the temp back then. Good to see that he's back, but I was under the impression that law is 4 losers had quit the legal world to become an electrician or something. Is he back? Or is this recycled stuff from 2005-6? It seems very familiar.
And yes, temping sucks royal donkey balls. You definitely feel weird making $50/hr for sitting around a table and making the same jokes over and over again for 12 hours a day. But from what I've heard, NY has the worst positions, temping in DC was definitely a much more genteel, if somewhat lower-paying, experience.
Anything law-related in DC is more genteel than cesspool NYC. And yes, you make less but NOT that much less (and quality of life is eons above that in NYC). Greedy dogs go to die in NYC. Rational being survive (even thrive) in DC.
Being a temp attorney sucks. If you get stuck doing it for a long period of time, then you will basically ruin your resume.
"Point is, contract work can be spectacular if you have the credentials to create a legal consultancy (independent consultants can benefit substantially come tax time). If you don't have the creds to do anything but doc review, my advice would be to find any job other than that. Sounds soul-deadening."
Gee, thanks for the invaluable and entirely irrelevant advice.
The ship be sinking...
#102. Why don't contract attorneys "hang out a shingle."
Skadden Farts tells you why!
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Fact is, with 100 K+ of student loan debt, the typical "shingle hanger" will be hung out to dry.
Skadden Farts aka Law is 4 Losers
Going "solo, eh? Have your checked your local Yellow Pages lately? Just count the number of attorneys begging for rinky-dink auto accident, DWI, and divorce/wills/ general shitlaw crap. Then tack on even more lawyers who don't (or can't afford to) advertise in the yellow pages. Then, for areas like personal injury, count the number of television commercials on daytime TV from the "national" feeder/referral PI firms like Jacoby and Meyers et al.
See what I'm getting at? The saturation level is staggering; really beyond comprehension. Scratching out a living in solo shitlaw is like selling saltwater on a lifeboat: people are already surrounded (literally drowning in)an endless supply of a totally worthless commodity: SHITLAW LAWYERS!
Come on, how many DWI's are there in a given suburban county/town? Read the local paper's police blotter. In a whole week maybe 15-20 (a few more on holiday weekends like 4th of July etc).
How many of the 15 or 20 DWI victims have even $2500 to pay a lawyer (and that's the low end of the scale for DWI)? Many are unemployed for Christ's sake and that's why they're drinking! Any of the higher-class types probably already know a lawyer from their peer group or will Google something like "NJ DWI LAW" and get the "mills" that can spend enough for a high Google bump. With 150 K in debt from a shitlaw school and no experience to practice law anyway, why the fuck is anyone going to retain you in the first place? Even shitlaw areas are somewhat complicated and involve at least 98,357 pages of tedious hypertechnical make-work paper churning and hours of sitting in shit-court at 10 pm waiting to argue with a nasty part-time troll "judge" who himself is a nasty, balding loser and lords his Napoleon complex over the pathetic night-court riff raff to inflate his own sorry ego. "Your honor" my ass. That robe means as much as a kid's Halloween costume.
Same way with small-time criminal work. If a guy had $2500 to pay a defense lawyer, would he be robbing a 7/11 or prying someone's window open at 2 am to steal a DVD player he can pawn for $20 to score a bag of crack?
"Family" law? Pray tell! For every hedge-fund divorce there are tons of trailer-trash people who reek of kerosene and haven't a pot to piss in or window to throw it out of, much less money to pay a lawyer a retainer + hourly rate. Half these losers will just use legal aid or a form company like "We the People" and toast their newly-found freedom from Bubba the wife beater with a can of Keystone Light and some crystal meth. They didn't and won't need a worthless shitlaw "lawyer" to help with custody of their obnoxious maladjusted satan-children who will probably grow up and score a 136 on the LSAT and attend Cooley's night program, bringing "prestige" to their family when they earn $13 an hour on a doc review in Newark NJ in 2018!
Wills and estates? Ever heard of Legalzoom? They have the same shitlaw templates from your CLE books for ordinary (non-millionaire) folks to print out and take to a notary for $50. And at the rate of this meltdown no one's going to have much to leave anyone anyway. High-end estate & trust clients are all referred to their lawyer by an investment adviser. Any investment guy worth his salt already has a 92 year old gray-beard expert estate lawyer that he feeds all the referrals to. Good luck breaking into this niche area. Stockbrokers aren't sending their rich clients to a newly minted shitlawyer who doesn't understand the nuances of IRS Sub-Code 45-B(II)V with regard to bilateral spousal exemptions under revised footnote 567(b)9 of the 2005 semi-annual quantum stimulus updates.
And even doing a proletarian's shit-will you still have to meet the losers and make nice for an hour, then hire a moron to type up the needed shitpaper (or waste an hour cutting and pasting it yourself), then have 'em come back AGAIN and explain idiotic legalese shit like "per stirpes" and then find witnesses, etc while also pretending you actually did something worth paying for. A huge headache and hassle to make $200 or whatever shitlaw wills go for in your town.
Or you could try the nightmarish (and all but totally dead now) field of residential real estate closings. Have fun filling out 75,357 pages HUD-1 forms and other pointless God-awful dreck, balancing trust accounts, cutting 18,253 different checks, dealing with scumbag title agencies, and having people bicker for hours over a $15 broken light switch at 1 am the night before closing. All so you can get a FLAT FEE of $750 for 73 hours of grunt work while a bimbo realtor w/ a GED and big tits walks away w/ a 5 grand commission and laughs in your face.
See kids, you can't charge more than "market rate" in your area for shitlaw. People do price shop (esp. in real estate closings- these people often use a lawyer referred by the realtor who wants someone cheap so that the deal goes thru). No realtor is going to recommend an expensive shitlaw closing lawyer because any $$$ to the lawyer is more chance the deal might break apart. Even very good real estate lawyers admit the practice area is decimated. Lawyers in the 1970s and 1980s used to get a percentage of the sale price as a fee for a typical closing. Now the rate is $750 flat no matter how long it takes. That's law. You make practice more and more miserable and complicated, while simultaneously reducing lawyer pay to sub-poverty levels. Layers and layers of added shitpaper for a smaller pile of dough. Welcome to Law 2009! In inflation-adjusted dollars (hell, even in "raw" dollars) most shitlaw lawyers are doing exponentially worse than their counterparts of 20 or 30 years ago were. This trend cannot improve and indeed will get worse as the ABA accredits more schools and shameless liars like Pat Hobbs fill diploma mills like Seton Hall to the rafters with over-leveraged liberal arts losers.
Personal injury was for years the main revenue source for most "shitlaw" lawyers. A "wild card" of sorts. Those days are gone. Time was, every shitlaw lawyers could count on at least an auto case or two a month. Back then (1920 to about 2001)soft tissue auto cases used to settle pre-suit for 15-20 K. Now they settle for ZERO thanks to tough "threshold" laws. And even decent cases (like broken bones and surgeries)are harder and harder to get money on quickly, because insurance companies have lost billions in bad investments and tightened the screws on pay-outs across the board. Insurance defense "lawyers" are so cheap thanks to the oversupply that its easy to fight off the plaintiffs until they give up. And many have given up.
Check craigslist in your area under "Legal Services" and you'll see scores of lawyers "outbidding" each other to do the cheapest DWI or traffic ticket or real estate closing or whatever. Its a fact of life.
As the economy continues its meltdown, less and less "ordinary folks" will have the dough to pay even cheap lawyers.
Fact is, almost no newbie solo will be able to generate the volume of business needed to sustain a living. The numbers just don't work. Deduct paying your own health insurance (300+ a month), office rent, self-employment tax, malpractice insurance, etc. You have to get a relatively steady flow of PAYING clients just to break even, much less profit.
There is no way any rational person can "spin" a TTT law degree into a good investment, or any kind of investment period. It is a costly & worthless albatross that will be worth less tomorrow than today as the morbid oversupply of lawyers continues unabated and, sadly, accelerates. There is no way from here but down.
NYC 1st yr biglaw associate here,
not a lot of time, so i'll just bullet point my thoughts:
-the nyc legal market is absurdly over-crowded
-i recently supervised a mid-level sized in-house doc review with k attnys, i found that they were:
-extremely well qualified (e.g. former 6 yr associate from V5 firm + ivy LS; former in-house GC for large corp w/ 25(+) WE etc. etc.; note: some were exactly what you'd expect: bottom half of the class from T2 and T3 schools - most, however, had resumes that blew mine out of the water)
-i became friendly with a # of them; when i asked them why they were doing K attny work, they responded that it simply the only gig going in town. the younger ones are studying for the gmat, mcat, etc.
-i'm paying off my debt as aggressively as possible. should i lose my job, i have no illusions about my ability to obtain another.
-lastly, and this may not be true for all markets, but NYC (and others similarly situated) is headed for a major correction. in terms of supply and demand, this thing is so out of whack that it's borderline comical ... until, that is, you end up reviewing docs on one of my reviews.
113 wins.
113 wins.
I met L4L in court. We had, like, a 10 min conversation about his blog and his postings on JDJive (his old "bigdebtsmalllaw" blog that used to be on Blogspot, not on WordPress as it is now). All he did was complain about exactly the situation you described above (no wealth distribution at his firm to associates) and the "dead-end" career that was no-fault ID. Never mind the fact that L4L worked at the SAME no fault ins defense firm I worked at only a few months before he was hired (I left after 1 week for another BI defense paying ~$20K more) and decided that his career would be shot completely if he stayed. I still talk to associates at that firm, along with defense counsel who worked with him when he did PI at that small firm, and they really didn't have fantastic things to say about him, his sense of professionalism, or his work ethic.
In court, I told him I was working on buying my own place and that I didn't really have 20% down for the closing but wanted to jump into the RE market because I was itching to move out of my parents and own my apartment already. A few hours later, he writes on his blog how "poor most ID associates" are that they can't afford to buy their own place because they don't have 20% down and how all ID associates do nothing but churn paper, cut and paste motions and sit around in courtrooms wearing JCPenney suits.
Seriously, the guy is short-sighted and has a not-so-healthy dose of over-entitlement thrown in for good measure. That was back in 2005-2006 and now here we are in 2009, I am pulling in north of $85K/year and he's still jumping from doc review jobs and prob scraping by with soft and tissue PI cases to pay rent
-NYC Insurance Defense Attorney
Indeed, 113 wins, although 47 is a close 2nd.
Why are there so many pussies in this field who can't figure out how to get some decent experience, learn some actual skills and turn it into something?
114-thank you so much for gracing us with your presense and insight. I don't know what we all would have done without your comment.
Now excuse me, I have to go roll my eyes....
Let’s be clear about one thing: temping in DC can also suck. I did it for about a year back in 2003-2004.
I have worked in dark basements, rooms with no windows or ventilation, and one work area adjacent to a garage—the exhaust fumes from exiting rush hour cars gave us a high every evening. Contractors do not complain too much because they do not want to be known as a troublemaker.
I had to work on doc reviews being managed by associates from my graduating class—literally people I had sat next to in law school. I was treated like crap (not by my former classmates, but other associates). It totally sucked.
Fortunately, I became obsessed with getting out, and the awful experience forced me to take risks that I would not have otherwise taken. As a result, I am now working as an attorney in Europe. I am meeting interesting people, getting paid to learn new languages, travelling, receiving 6 weeks paid vacation, and not logging billable hours. I literally have my dream job. OK, so I am not getting paid as much as I would at NY Big Law. But I am making decent money and I am really happy.
I will be heading back to the US at some point with some great experience—personal and professional.
For those of you stuck in contracting, stay strong and don’t give up on yourself.
80-While I'd like to say I empathize with your situation, I don't. If you're really doing all that you claim to be doing to secure a gov't job, then there's no reason why you should be in your current predicament. It's called hustling. If you're only applying to the FTC, then you're not hustling. That's how one gets the job.
Of course government doesn't look at all resumes that come in the door seriously- but they are all looked at. And yes many gov't job vacanies posted on USAJobs are filled by internal employees rather than through outside postings.
But that's just the way it goes. Stop crying or i'll have to call the wahhhm-bulance.
Agree with 106--there are attorneys hired for documents reviews and there are also in-house attorneys who are technically "contract attorneys." The latter could be people who work for a contract agency like Axiom.
It's not really fair to lump them together.
Lat- more columns like this should be posted. The ABA, State Bar Associations, and Law Schools really need to start addressing the dismal job prospects for recent law grads.
113 - you are such a pussy. You're clearly too scared to forge anything of your own.
Everyone I know who has had the guts to go out on their own tells me it's the best decision they ever made. Yes, there are risks. Yes, there is a lot of competition. Yes, you're up against more experienced people. But a lawyer with some gumption, smarts, and initiative (unlike you) can indeed prosper.
You suck.
wow 51, I can't believe two people actually bit. well done!
lady soto, Epic Fail...go to sleep
Binder & Binder Secure
Is that what people tell you 125? There is no doubt that some people make very good lawyers. There is also not a doubt that it is not what law schools describe.
128 --
Please stop blaming law schools. I think they're misrepresentations are wrong, just like credit card companies mispresent that provide low interest rates, and then raise them with no reason. Of course its not right.
But the bottom line is you decided to go to law school (just like someone decided to take a credit card and rack up debt). The buck stops with you.
There are plenty of ways to make a living as a lawyer other than being in big law. You just have dedicate yourself and work hard, just like any other profession.
125 wins.
-Not 125.
"Please stop blaming law schools. I think they're misrepresentations are wrong, just like credit card companies mispresent that provide low interest rates, and then raise them with no reason. Of course its not right.
But the bottom line is you decided to go to law school (just like someone decided to take a credit card and rack up debt). The buck stops with you."
++++++++++++++++++++
No it's not "not right", it's illegal. It's a violation of consumer protecton laws. It's funny how the "personal responsibility" crowd hold the individual to a very high standard, but absolve the company/academic institution from any responsibility. Caveat Emptor no longer applies
131-- Please name/cite the consumer protection laws it violates and relevant case law if any. I doubt the TTT's are running afoul of the law, but please let me know if I'm wrong.
122-
1. I don't see where I asked for your empathy.
2. Your "hustling" comment is not only unhelpful, it is something only a true douchebag would say.
3. If you are going to comment on my posts, at least make an effort to read them. I posted before that I have applied to TWENTY government jobs in the last year. That pretty much represents every government job in my area during that time. The FTC example was just for effect, in that it is a job that I should be competitive for but didn't even snag an interview.
Anyone going to law school should have the sense to ask around and find out what their realistic prospects are. I went to a decent school, but not one of the best in the nation (a T30 state school). I was told going in, by pretty much everyone I asked, that I would need to graduate in the top 10% of my class and be on Law Review in order to get a job as a Big Law associate.
I worked by butt off, graduated top 10% and got onto law review. And what do you know? I work at a V100 law firm.
I find it hard to believe that any grownup could blame someone else because he didn't do his homework before investing in a 3-year hugely expensive education. Can anyone out there honestly tell me that they expected to be able to graduate in the middle of their class without distinction and walk into a great high-paying entry-level job? Come on people!
I think a lot of people took a calculated risk that they could beat out their law school classmates for a relatively small number of top jobs. Most of those people lost their bet and are bitter because they over-estimated their own intelligence and work ethic.
It wasn't a Jedi mind trick that put you in law school. You made a choice. Deal with it. If you don't like being a lawyer do something else with your life.
134 - amen.
Thank you 132.
If you some of you people thought that you were tricked into going to law school based on a school's violation of consumer protection laws, then by all means, sue them. Otherwise, start taking responsibility for your own actions.
134 = Former AG Alberto Gonzales.
Right on, Berto!!!
Large document production contract work is terrible and will never lead to a job.
small group contract work (5-10 CAs) helping with a case can sometimes be fun and not that bad. This can sometimes lead to a job (even at a big firm back in the day - think transition form CA to staff attorney than up to associate - it is like unicorn rare at big firms but it happens - it happens more often at medium firms and small boutique shops)
That is your answer to the CA thing - Find out which agencies staff smaller gigs (there are some that don't bother with them) and get nice with the recruiter - earn them some money on a big gig and let them know you like to try something smaller.
Also there are some firms that hire CAs directly; always a better deal.
Law schools arent the scammers in the CA game, its the agencies. They are like the pay day loan people of the legal world. Their ultimate goal is to make sure you do not get hired full time - because they make so much more money off your butt filling that seat on a doc review.
Note to 134 - Must be nice to be a water walker and smugly rub the 90% who were not in the top 10% of the class's faces in it. Beware, the high and mighty can be laid low quicker than you think. Karma can be funny that way.
The problem 125 is that every year the 7 law schools in your state are pumping out hundreds of new people with gumption and drive and they are competing with you for the same work. So where is that going to end up eventually?
139, the difference between you and me is that I don't believe in Karma. If I'm "laid low" I'll get back up and do something else. I've always noticed that the harder I work the luckier I get.
140 got it right. Something like 10,000 people are admitted to the NY Bar every year. Although a considerable number of them won't practice in NY (like me), that's still at least 5,000-7,500 new lawyers every year in one state alone. It's ridiculous when you think about the numbers.
@129
"I think they're misrepresentations are wrong."
They're? Really?
I think your English is wrong.
125,
Every solo I know says the same - best decision ever. Then I watch them drive off in their '86 Toyota Tercel back to their rented efficiency and I think maybe I should take those statements with a grain of salt.
Sometimes people won't be totally honest with you, and you'll soon be expected to identify that.
It's called lawyering.
143 --
You are total douche. Posting on a blog is not the same as submitting a written motion to a court. I'm employed, and don't have time to proof read every little comment I make.
Its also worth noting that you don't attack the substance of my post, but rather focus on some minor typo. I'm sure you'll be a great lawyer when you finally graduate or find a job (your honor, I don't dispute the substance if opposing counsel's argument, but his motion should be denied because he has a minor typo).
But if pointing out my typos makes you feel better while you're unemployed and looking for a job, than that's cool. I'm glad I could help.
anonyouscontractlawyer.blogspot.com
anonymouscontractlawyer.blogspot.com
Going solo can be great -- but not right out of school unless you have some considerable means to fall back on while you build your practice. Even then you're pretty much taking anything coming through the door. Bigger firms are still the best place to spend your junior years and get established. Even if the training sucks in reality, a lot clients don't know that and will at least think you have skills based on who you've worked for. But then you actually have to perform once you get the work.
This all assumes you have an entreprenuerial bone in your body. Most law students do not, or they would have done something else with their lives. Law school certainly doesn't teach it. Hell, most business schools don't teach that.
I agree about the agencies. I am on a project that has lasted a year. The agency did their work for the project at the start, that's when they expend personnel, hours, time, etc requesting resumes, sorting through and culling the qualified and available, sending those resumes to the firm, setting up interviews, letting those hired know, relaying information about starting date and time, rules, processing paperwork, etc.
Since that time--they keep collecting their fee on every hour we work but do nothing beyond processing online timecards. Long projects are unicorn porn for agencies. I don't blame them, it's a great strategy when it works.
And some states, like Minnesota, do have reduced licensing fees for unemployed, those making less than 25,000/yr, and those out of state.
anonymous contract lawyer
@145,
Cute. But it's not a typo. It's a failure to distinguish between a conjunction and a possessive pronoun.
And just so you know, neither are acceptable to the clients you want to have. (Clients, junior, not judges are the concern. Of course, as an "employed, practicing lawyer," you already know that, right?)
@145
At 150, I wrote "conjunction" when I meant "contraction."
Now I do what?
a. Get defensive and babble about the substance of my post,
b. Ignore it and hope it goes away, or
c. Identify my mistake, apologize and correct it?
150 --
Even more cute. Of course, given how intelligent you are (and that you have time to point out every little typo, which was what my mistake was -- I know the difference between "they're", "their", and "there"), I'm sure you realize that my comments on this blog ARE NOT GOINT TO BE SUBMITTED TO CLIENTS. My god you're an idiot.
And since were pointing out little mistakes on blogs, I don't think you quoted correctly. I never said I was an "employed, practicing lawyer." I said I was "employed." I may have typos, but at least I can quote accurately.
And for the record, and I am an employed practicing attorney. Again, good luck finding a job. It must be hard finding time to submit resumes in between demonstrating your english skills on an blog. Douche.
151 --
I'm not defensive about a typo on a blog. I could care less. My point was that, instead of focusing on the actual substance of my post, you decided to point a little typo, in a sarcastic way.
Again, if you take that much pride in your work product on a BLOG, than that's great. I simply don't have time to proof read what I write on here. But does not, and should not, take away from the substance of my comments.
80- I'll say it again, you only applied for 20 gov't jobs (limited to your area!). That's your problem. Accept the fact that you did not apply to enough possible jobs.
You're the douchebag for whining, not me.
Let me intervene as a neutral third party. Anyone that comments on someone's grammar on blog comments is a douche. It's a brightline rule. Don't feel bad though. There really is nothing you can do about it.
It is just your nature.
154-
Sigh. If it makes you happy to characterize my valid point that government jobs just don't fall in your lap like the comment I was responding to suggested as "whining," have at it. And forgive me for limiting my job search to this area of the country. I have this little thing called a wife that needs to be taken into consideration. Considering the level of douchebaggery you have displayed today, I am guessing you don't have that particular issue.
No, 156 I don't have a wife to "take into consideration" as you phrase it, because I'm female. Bam!
And yes, my husband thinks you're a douchebag too.
There's actually a song called "Mommas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers." It's on a CD called Wingtips Optional by a group called Bob Noone and the Well Hung Jury. You can buy the CD from The Billable Hour Company (http://TheBillableHour.com).
Here are the lyrics:
Refrain/Chorus:
Mommas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers
Don't let them drive Volvos and write them old briefs,
Get'em a guitar and save them that grief . . .
Mommas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers,
Cause they work 8 days a week, just to hear themselves speak,
On topics that nobody knows.
Verse 1
Lawyers like little silk hankies - stuffed in pin stripped pockets,
Short-winded judges that lounge in their long flowing robes, Each
morning finds him with hands cupped round the next fix of caffiene, and
you can't find him at night, 'cause the night belongs to Michelob . . .
Chorus
Mommas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers
Don't let them drive Volvos and write them old briefs,
Buy'em a banjo and save them that grief . . .
Mommas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers,
Cause they work 8 days a week, just to hear themselves speak,
On topics that nobody knows.
Verse 2
Lawyers use initials when the rest of us all seem to have first names,
They go to their "autos" while most just go to their cars.
"Prior" and "Subsequent" is just a fancy way they say "before" and "after"
And if you can't understand him, it's probably because . . .
He just passed the bar . . .
Chorus
Mommas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers
Don't let them drive Volvos and write them old briefs,
Find 'em a four-wheeler, save them that grief . . .
Mommas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers,
They work 8 days a week, just to hear themselves speak,
On topics that nobody knows.
they work 8 days a week, just to hear themselves speak,
. . . and WHO GIVES A DAMN?
You can hear a sample of the song at http://www.thebillablehour.com/timesheet_05_07.php#section7
transactional law: no sack required. & you still get to tell your family you're an attorney!
It's no surprise that a whiner like Law is 4 Losers cites the ABA's ethics opinion on outsourcing (08-451) as evidence of how the ABA has failed the profession. A commenter on his blog did the same (http://bigdebtsmalllaw.wordpress.com/about/#comment-137), as did some commenters on Lat's recap of a June 16 NYC Bar panel on alternative legal careers (http://tinyurl.com/kuy3nm; http://tinyurl.com/mugv7p).
As 64, 101 and 138 point out, there's more than one kind of contract lawyer. What those who complain about 08-451 (and other opinions like it from state and local bar associations) fail to realize is that the same principles that allow firms to send legal work overseas also allow law students - including (gasp!) summer associates at AmLaw 100 firms - and law grads awaiting admission to do actual legal work when they're working at firms, rather than making copies and getting coffee for the partners. These principles also allow lawyers to work as contract attorneys in jurisdictions in which they are not admitted. So, actually, these ethics opinions are good news for US lawyers, if you understand all their implications.
There are plenty of small firms and solos with more work than they can handle, eager to give substantive work to qualified contract lawyers to do on a project-by-project basis, rather than hiring permanent associates.
There are at least three ways to get this kind of work. If, like 64, you have stellar credentials, you might be able to work with a high-end recruiter (like Axiom), to land a well-paying contract gig. But I suspect that 64 was able to write his own ticket in a much stronger economy.
Like 138, you can work with agencies that staff smaller projects that may offer more interesting work and better working conditions.
Or, like 101, you can find a small firm or solo looking for someone to work on a freelance basis. Cut out the middleman entirely - work as an independent contract lawyer (i.e., not for an agency). But you have to have entrepreneurial chops, a sense of personal responsibility, and a willingness to stop complaining about your situation and start doing something about it, to go it on your own.
In a guest post over at Susan Cartier Liebel's Build a Solo Practice blog, a former BigLaw document reviewer talks about how she stopped whining and started taking action: http://tinyurl.com/nmmvgh. Read it.
(Yes, I'm also 158 - my career as a freelance contract lawyer has given me the flexibility to pursue a number of side ventures.)
158,160: Best ever ATL schtick!
TTT secure
158,160: Best ever ATL schtick!
TTT secure
158,160: Best ever ATL schtick!
TTT secure
@Lisa Solomon
Why do you say that the ABA allowing foreign outsourcing is a necessary consequence of allowing law students and non-licensed US lawyers do work? This sounds like you're framing the issue as a false choice -- either we allow Bangalore attorneys to practice US law, or we prevent law students or US contract lawyers from working.
Why doesn't the ABA simple carve out an exception where outsourcing is not permitted when it's to a foreign lawyer? It has the power to do so, does it not?
T20 UG, T30 public law school, fed appel clerk, BIGLAW, MIDLAW, in-house, and fed agency here. 10+ yrs: I do think the legal profession is WAY WAY overcrowded. Too many TTTs pumping out students who probably should not have gone to law school, and which charge students way too much tuition for it. Too many law schools charging exorbitant tuition, period. And, too many people going to law school thinking that it is a ticket to riches. The JD degree is a "juggernaut": You may do well, you may not. It's not a license to riches, for sure, and never has been.
No one--not even a T5, law review, Ivy UG, Supreme Court clerk--is entitled to a 160+ K job a year. People need to get out of that mentality; most practicing lawyers don't make that much money, and if they do, its not for a sustainable period of time (more than 5 years). Your income will fluctuate.
Criminal court assignments are excellent ways for people to get some experience. Sign up for smaller temp jobs. Oh, and why does everybody need to live in NYC? People need to move away from NYC, DC, LA and move to a more moderate cost of living environment. Be willing to take a chance on the second and third tier markets where your competition may not be as stiff.
164 - Are you interested in principles or protectionism? Certainly, the ABA could issue a results-oriented opinion that allows US lawyers to stick their heads in the sand a bit longer, clinging to the false belief that law isn't a business subject to the same forces that affect other knowledge industries (such as IT). As I explained in a previous ATL comment ( http://tinyurl.com/lhcahd ):
You can't have it both ways: the same principles that allow outsourcing to foreign countries also allow "outsourcing" within the United States. US contract attorneys have to distinguish themselves on other grounds than cost - just like other successful US companies that have cheaper foreign competition must distinguish themselves in order to survive and profit.
There are plenty of agencies that place contract/temporary lawyers. Some unemployed US lawyers think that kind of work is beneath them.
I encourage any lawyer in the US who wants to start an independent practice as a contract lawyer to do so. In fact, as I say right on my website, I think there is amazing pent-up demand for high-quality outsourced legal research and writing services (and, to add to that, any high-quality outsourced legal services).
I suggest you read my post entitled "What Susskind’s ABA Techshow Keynote Means for Independent US-Based Contract Lawyers" (http://tinyurl.com/koohx5). As I explain in that post, in an April speech at ABA TechShow, Richard Susskind, author of The End of Lawyers?: Rethinking the Nature of Legal Services, discussed his central thesis, which is that, in the next ten years or so, advances in technology will change, in fundamental ways, how legal services are delivered.
First, Susskind explained that the provision of legal services will increasingly be decomposed into component tasks that can be “multi-sourced”: in other words, each component task can be delivered, by different providers, in a manner lying somewhere on the following continuum:
bespoke (customized)>standardized>systematized>packaged>commoditized
A few of the types of multi-sourcing he listed fall squarely within the experience of today’s contract lawyers. Of the twelve types of sourcing models Susskind touched upon, “outsourcing,” is one of the broadest (and is the term that is probably most familiar to contract lawyers). As Wikipedia defines it, “outsourcing” is “subcontracting a process . . . to a third-party company.” In this sense, all work performed by a contract lawyer has been outsourced by the hiring attorney. Susskind also separately mentioned subcontracting as a sourcing model; I would be interested to learn more about the distinction he draws between outsourcing and subcontracting. Most contract lawyers are also a prime example of homeshoring, which, although commonly defined as “the transfer of service industry employment from offices to home-based employees with appropriate telephone and Internet facilities,” can also include the provision of professional services from a worker’s home.
Second, although Susskind predicts that, under pressure from clients who seek lower cost and greater predictability, an increasing percentage of legal work will be provided in a manner that falls farther and farther towards the right side of the continuum illustrated above, Susskind specifically noted in both his speech and his book that litigation practices would be affected the least by technological changes because litigation matters are very fact specific, and because litigators must necessarily appear in court. The fact-specific nature of litigation means that there will always be a demand for contract lawyers who can provide high-quality legal research and writing services. The “face time” required in many litigation matters means that busy solos will continue to seek the assistance of contract lawyers who can handle “outside” work such as depositions and court appearances.
In my view, independent US-based contract lawyers are well-positioned to ride the wave of technological innovation into the legal landscape of the future. Are you ready?
This is all because of the staffing agencies and their corrupt relationships with big firms. The agencies pay $27/hour straight time and charge the firm $60 so they can pocket the rest. Those contract attorneys in NC and elsewhere who make $50/hour work directly for the firms. The big firms use the agencies even though it's more expensive because the agencies give the corrupt lit support people trips, dinners, etc.
Funny: in reading these comments I realize that the default assumption made by most of you is that any neutral (non-gender specific) commenter is a man.
-64 (woman)
I guess desperate people make a great market, always have, but I don't understand how the "hey just become a freelancer!" crowd has any credibility at all. Anyone who has done one hour of actual legal work should be able to tell that commodification of a specialized business means No More Money for anyone in that business.
One person can build a car in a year, and get paid by the hour. 300 people can build a car in an hour, and get paid next to nothing, because they are always replaceable.
Because law has traditionally been sort of important to our system of government, we have not allowed it to become a car type business. We don't want idiots paid by the piece to be filing motions, for the same reason we don't want surgery to be performed on a production line basis. Sometimes the impact the product will have matters as much as the finished product.
Lisa Solomon is making money (probably not much) by poo-pooing the concerns of people who are desperate for a pay off from their investment in an expensive and grueling three years of higher education.
She's no different than the Bar Bri people who dumped an extra $5,000 for the bar exam on us at the end of that education. She has a captive audience. Some buzzwords. And an audience without any other options.
164 - Are you interested in principles or protectionism? Certainly, the ABA could issue a results-oriented opinion that allows US lawyers to stick their heads in the sand a bit longer, clinging to the false belief that law isn't a business subject to the same forces that affect other knowledge industries (such as IT).
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Jeeez, first it was allow Ashit the Bangalore attorney to practice US law for $8/hour vs. not allow US contract attorneys to work...now it's protectionism vs. principle?
Again, you're setting up false choices. How about this -- I want protectionism from the principle of doing what's fair for attorneys.
Law is not a business like IT and it never has been. Law is perhaps the most regulated industry in America and as a result the market forces that drive other businesses are completely distorted in law.
If you're going to make lawyers jump through 100 hoops to practice, like go through 3 years of law school at great expense, sit for the bar exam, pay bar dues, do pro bono, etc., and then tie their hands when it comes to marketing their practices, splitting fees, advertising, etc., yes, you owe them protection in return.