Dollar Store for Law Schools
Do you want to purchase a discount legal education, but you don’t know where to look? A new list from the National Jurist will point you in the right direction. Tax Prof Blog reproduces the list of which law schools give you the most bang for your buck. Here are the top 15:
How do you come up with a list that ranks N. Carolina Central the best at anything? Check out the methodology after the jump.
Here are the factors that went into this list of Value City Law Schools:
In determining what makes a law school a “best value,” we first looked at tuition, considering only public schools with an in-state tuition less than $25,000, and private schools with an annual tuition that comes in under $30,000. We then narrowed the playing field again by including only schools that had an employment rate of at least 85% and a school bar passage rate that was higher than their state average. We then ranked schools, giving greatest weight to tuition, followed closely by employment statistics.
If you only want to go to law school to pass the bar in your state and have a decent chance at getting some kind of legal work, this list will help you spend as little as possible on the law school experience.
Click on the links below for the full list.
Best Value Law Schools [Tax Prof Blog]
Best Bang For Your Buck [National Jurist]
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Comments
That's why I went to Ga State. Good rep in Georgia and cheap. Law was a second career for me. So I figured if I hated it I could always go back to my former life as a management consultant and not have broken the bank. But as it turns out I like being a lawyer. :-)
" A new list is out from the National Jurist will point you in the right direction."
First to point out Mystttal's grammatical error!
This requires a third adjustment - historic school rank/number of employers conducting OCI to account for access to high-paying jobs.
Top Schools with this methedology:
-- UNC
-- Georgia
-- Wisconsin
Alabama excluded due to fraudulent rank and no OCI.
3 put together a better list in five minutes.
Why is newly minted 4th tier (this year) Pace Law School not on this list? Surely it is an oversight. Oh yeah, Pace's tuition is over 30 grand - No.1 in the category of most expensive TTT T school.
Would you like fries wit dat?
I suppose that I should know the answer to this question, but is North Carolina Central accredited by the American Bar Association?
Shoot, I was hoping this was a list of where to buy some whiney-ass first year's on the cheap.
Wow, the accreditation guy and "baby bar" guy are gonna have a field day with this one...
Where is Suffolk Law's TTTT ranking? Suffolk Law school is the Afghanistan of law schools.
Since no one is hiring, doesn't that make all new law degrees equally worthless?
I mean, the value isn't in what you pay to get your degree, it's in what someone is willing to pay to employ you...and right now, that ain't doodley-squat.
These law degrees aren't worth the Charmin they're written on.
GULC is the best bang for any buck. Without a doubt.
I suppose that I should know the answer to this question, but is BYU accredited by the American Bar Association?
I suppose that I should know the answer to this question, but is the University of Nebraska accredited by the American Bar Association?
3 - OCI means nuttin any more.
"Employment rate of at least 85%" ?
Employed at what point? A year after graduation? Employed in what field? For what pay?
If any of these schools claim a higher than 85% employment rate at graduation, I call complete BS. When graduates of the Top 50 schools are having problems getting jobs, I find it a little hard to believe that anyone outside of the Top 10% of the class (other than maybe at NCCU) is getting any type of desired legal job.
I like commenter three's list better.
shocked uconn is not on this list
C'mon. Florida International University School of Law? Is it accredited by the American Bar Association? Is it a member in good standing of the Association of American Law Schools? How many of its professors belong to SALT? How many members of its law library staff belong to AALL?
I'm a GSU grad. Debt load after graduating in 2.5 years roughly 55k, probably could have gotten by on less but I said WTH, no sense roughing it. Thought I would rock GSU, yeah uh, I ain't as smart as I thought I was - GSU was tough. Top third all got BigLaw jobs in Atlanta, (probably the) best market in the SE. I'm (part of the top half and) employed, in house counsel - the pay's better than government work, for the most part. Completely worth changing careers because I'd probably be a laid off environmental consultant by now.
In conclusion, I thought it was TTT and I would rule. Turned out not to be, was still cheap, and I still rule even after not ruling. Me >> You.
Since none of the grads of Wisconsin have to take the bar exam to practice in Wisconsin, isn't a bar passage rate of 100% a tad misleading?
This list is absolutely correct. I'm a proud UNC Central grad and have had no problem finding employment. Go Tarheels!
21 -
As a pole dancer or as a lawyer?
All of those schools are unaccredited, online, or both. It's less of a value when you realize you:
A) Can only take the bar in the state the law school is based in.
B) Have to take the 'baby bar' after your 1L year to continue your studies.
However, if you don't care about having an unaccredited alma matter, it's sort of a bargain. Nothing prevents you from being a personal injury or criminal defense lawyer.
22 -
A little bit of both.
21
I didn't realize that UNC was Tier 4.
Idaho?
No
Youdaho!
20 - Not having to take a bar should be worth at least 5 slots on any ranking.
21, you are proud grad but don't even know who your mascot is?
Any list that has a tier 4 as the top school is an epic failure
Okay but no one in NC wants to hire an NC Central grad because the education is so poor there. It is rated last of the schools in the state, even those that just started. Courses are limited to the basics and the level of teaching is to the level of (very poor) students. The only reason to go there is if you are already employed by a big company and they agree you can work in the legal department--most times in IP work for scientists.
Okay but no one in NC wants to hire an NC Central grad because the education is so poor there. It is rated last of the schools in the state, even those that just started. Courses are limited to the basics and the level of teaching is to the level of (very poor) students. The only reason to go there is if you are already employed by a big company and they agree you can work in the legal department--most times in IP work for scientists.
And tuition for many of the Tier 3/4 schools is much less if you score well on the LSAT and do well in class (due to scholarships and incentive programs etc). I graduated from a Tier 4 with less than $15k in debt (in 2002) and paid it all off within half a year after ending my clerkship (I got a job with a V50 firm).
GSU will soon beCUM the best law school in Georgia.
26 for the win
Montana shouldn't be on the list because legal salaries in the state are nothing short of pathetic. I saw a chart of Dorsey and Whitney salaries, showing what they pay at various locations. They still pay starting MT associates 55k. The trout fishing can't be THAT good.
25 displays all the jealously of your typical Elon grad.
@21
The UNC Central mascot is the eagle. The Tarheel is the mascot of UNC Chapel Hill, a school you obviously could not get into since your delusional.
-Duke and UNC Hater
The commenter on the TaxProf Blog nailed it -
"But this is meaningless without looking at what jobs the students are getting and what quality of education they are receiving. According to this methodology, a free junior college whose graduates immediately found jobs at McDonald's would be a better value than Harvard. It's another example of grasping at anything quantifiable, even at the expense of logic."
No 25, UNC is not NC Central. They are entirely different schools. The law schools in NC are:
Duke
UNC (at Chapel HIll)
Wake Forest
Elon
Campbell
UNC (charlotte)
and then after a big gap, NC Central
Sorry to pollute this thread with a worthwhile comment, but this (posted at the TaxProf blog by M. Livingston) sums it up:
"But this is meaningless without looking at what jobs the students are getting and what quality of education they are receiving. According to this methodology, a free junior college whose graduates immediately found jobs at McDonald's would be a better value than Harvard. It's another example of grasping at anything quantifiable, even at the expense of logic."
SMU RULES!
Come to BYU for the value, stay for the fucked up life in Provo!
Where did GMU (George Mason University) shake out based upon your selection criteria? Its a top tier school w/ dirt cheap tuition and with all their gov't connections most graduates are able to get jobs pretty easily. The only thing I can think of that was a challenge was bar passage rate, but I think its pretty respectable and I am confused as to how they did not hit your list with at least an honorable mention.
39 fails. UNC Charlotte doesn't have a law school. You're confusing it with Charlotte School of Law - the undisputed best [gang]bang for your buck in the old north state.
I have a 122 LSAT and a 2.6 UGPA in interior design. My top choices for law school are Harvard and North Carolina Central. Could anyone advise me as to my chances of admittance at these schools? What about scholarship money?
The concept of this list is good, but the list itself blows. How in the world UGA, Iowa, and Wisconsin didn't make the list is beyond me.
Perhaps they should take median salary upon graduation into account? $30K/yr in tuition at NC Central isn't so much of a steal when your best career prospects are working for the ADA in bumblefuck North Carolina for $32K/yr.
39,
UNC @ Charlotte = Public University w/out a law school
Charlotte School of Law = PrivaTTTTe law school that starts 1Ls in January
Uh, no.
They need to look at
1. AVERAGE DEBT of students graduating at a particular school
2. REAL EMPLOYMENT STATISTICS, and most importantly,
3. AVERAGE STARTING SALARY.
Hello?!?!? Debt-to-salary ratio is where its at! If a school is expensive but almost all graduates get jobs, most of which are high paying jobs, how is that not bang for your buck? And if a school is relatively inexpensive, but the average starting salary is $35,000/year, how is that a good deal?
Having a yearly salary that clocks in as half your total debt is a better deal than having a salary that is a third (or less) of your total debt. And yes, average salary and school ranking probably go hand in hand.
Bar passage is next to irrelevant and should only be used for a tie breaker. Who came up with this shit?
39 also fails to recognize 25's humor
I think Montana is a much better school than it gets credit for. I have three friends who graduated from there and all three are working at AMLaw 100 firms -- two in NYC and one in Denver. And, they paid off their loans before their first year ended.
However, the legal profession is too concerned about perceived prestige to give credit where credit is due.
"we first looked at tuition, considering only public schools with an in-state tuition less than $25,000, and private schools with an annual tuition that comes in under $30,000."
What? What difference does it make from a student's perspective whether the money is going to a private school or a public school? FAIL.
Where is Penn Law-- Penn State Law, Philadelphia campus? Surely they must be on this list...
is "duke" Carolina State's nickname? i heard they had troubles w/ their journal tryouts. not charging enough for tuition -- and therefore not having enough money for good IT systems, etc -- was probably the cause of Carolina State's (aka "duke") problems. thoughts?
Are the students at these schools as self-entitled as all the rest?
You should run like hell from any school that has two directional terms in its name.
So the graduates of the best value in law have 13% unemployment, higher than the national workforce at large....Fantastic.
55 - Northwestern only exception
I though the law school in Chapel Hill was NC State - I'm confused.
I'm impressed that UNC's central North Carolina campus did so well on this list. GO TARHEELS!!!
58, you're correct no confusion
Hey 39, don't forget Clemson, that is in North Carolina as well.
43% of my farts are 15% worse than 75% of the population's.
Does that count for anything?
I once got Clemson from a girl at NC Central. My doctor gave me penicillin to get rid of it.
where is University of Penn State on this list?
23-
Why, oh, why, do I feel the need to correct your misunderstanding when I know it will do no good? Nonetheless, I hope you find it useful somewhere down the line to know that most, if not all, of those schools are accredited.
Facts? Yes, they're out there...somewhere...yearning to be freed.
Why aren't any of the Puerto Rican law schools from yesterday on the list?
BREAKING NEWS IN RACISM
Value boycots Puerto Rico.
65, I think that you are clearly misinformed. I took a look at the Baby Bar website, and those schools are indeed listed as unaccredited schools that require the Baby Bar.
- Not 23, just another concerned attorney
George Bush doesn't care about wise latinas. TPB is racist.
Dear 21 et al,
It's North Carolina Central University (NCCU), not UNC Central.
Thanks
-Management
65, all of them are unaccredited or online or both. If you have any sources to the contrary, please cite them. One or two of them may have gotten provisional accreditation while I wasn't paying attention.
Again, NCCU does NOT have much to do with UNC other than being in the same state. People that can't go to Duke go to UNC, but NO ONE goes to NCCU except hookers that falsely accuse Duke students of fictional crimes.
And I don't believe for a second that NCCU's bar pass rate is anywhere near reasonable, let alone to close to average in the state.
And it's not a "gap" separating NCCU from the other NC schools, it's more like the Grand Canyon.
I love all these idiots who are explaining the difference between NCCU and UNC. People are just screwing with you--
I think Puerto Rican law schools should be on the list just based on the caliber of the women alone. When I'm in PR, I see one hottie after another. It's a little ridiculous really.
56 - ALL law schools are sporting those kinds of numbers. D'oh!
I'm not a big UNC fan, since I went to Duke, but I still wouldn't equate it with NCCU. 73, that's really low.
North Carolina Central University is no longer affiliated with UNC Central? When did they separate?
National Jurist ranked Northeastern Law as the "best public interest law school" in the country, so it must be on the list, right? Oh, wait - it costs $65,032 a year to attend. Never mind.
Northeastern Law: Burma-quality education, Monaco-quality tuition.
Poster #26 wins the thread. Everyone else, GTFO.
39--
No way that Elon tops Campbell.
Doesn't really matter 'cuz both suck.
I read somewhere that NCCU, UNC Central, and Duke all used to be one school with different campuses. Then Dean Thadeus McDougall decided to split the schools to save commuting costs for the professors. Overall, they're pretty much the same school with different campuses.
"If you only want to go to law school to pass the bar in your state and have a decent chance at getting some kind of legal work, this list will help you spend as little as possible on the law school experience."
Ah right, "only" passing the bar and getting "some kind of legal work." Perhaps people should have higher goals, like you Elie, who went to Harvard to further your prestigious legal career and become an admired and powerful attorney... Oh wait you failed the bar and write articles for a tabloid.
How can something worthless that you paid money for be considered a good value?
What most of you posters fail to realize is that NC Central U has a day program AND a night program, the only night program in the Research Triangle Park. The night program is filled with people from Research Triangle Park such as engineers, business people, etc. that are looking to get their law degree while continuing to work. So this night program is hard to get in, its graduates already have provent themselves successful and are just making a career upgrade, and therefore they are highly employed and do well on the bar exam. That's why it is so highly ranked here.
(Note, I'm not a graduate there, but some co-workers are.)
68, 71-
I hope we're looking at the same list. Either way, a list of accredited schools can be found easily enough at www.abanet.org/legaled/approvedlawschools/approved.html.
81 for the win
"They still pay starting MT associates 55k. The trout fishing can't be THAT good."
A cost of living comparison says $55k in Billings, (montana's largest city -about 100k people) is worth $105,000 in New York.
Not a biglaw $160k, but not exactly poverty.
I thought Duke, UNC, NCCU and Wake were a consortium...you can take classes at any location and receive a degree from the school of your chooising...
87, your student loan payments don't vary based on where you live. Cost of living comparisons only go so far.
#48 -- I am not sure that average starting salary is equally important to all graduating attorneys. I think we can all agree that working at a Biglaw sweatshop is not really worth the money and contributes little to career development. If you went to law school to become a DA, public defender, or to pursue a career other than Biglaw, the salary statistic is meaningless and you are probably better off at a strong local school (provided they do not charge ridiculous tuition). If I could do it all again, I would have gone to the DOJ to develop some real skills. A well-developed skill set will serve you better than false loyalty to a crappy firm.
Allow me to clarify for all of you who seek to sow the seeds of confusion...
UNNC is in fact affiliated with the greater UNC system. Also known as "UNC - Durham Campus," it was founded as the first liberal arts school designed primarily for African-American students. Its law school has cross-enrollment with the law school at UNC Chapel Hill and can essentially be regarded as the exact same law school.
Thx.
Univ. of South Carolina law school student: Well...I received my JD from Carolina, you see and...
Potential Employer: Oh, great, UNC is a great law school and a pretty sweet bargain at that.
South Carolina student: No, no, I didn't go to UNC, I'm not a Tar Heel. I meant USC.
Potential Employer: Wow...that's oustanding. The University of Southern California is also a great institution. Man, and you can't beat that weather.
South Carolina Student: No, no, you're confused again. I attended law school in Columbia, SC. You know...the Cocks.
Potential Employer: I'm sorry, we're out of time.
91
So let me get this straight if I go to UNNC I get my degree from Duke even though I attend classes at Clemson?
91 is either epic flame or epicly mistaken.
I am a V10 Hiring Partner on the Management Committee. Based on these comments, I would now never hire anyone from UNC Central or Central NC State. We might hire someone from Campbell, only because I never heard of that law school and I suppose it would be possible to think that it was ranked somewhere between 11 and 15. As soon as that attorney started, I'm sure we would then lay them off.
-V10 Hiring Partner
its a joke to have FIU as a better value than UF
GSU doesn't have the national brand that Emory has but GSU still has top notch programs including litigation and health law. As far as $, several students I know selected GSU over Emory b/c of the cost of tuition. Makes no sense to spend that kind of $ for Emory IF you want to stay in Atl. or other southeastern markets.
96 FU then.
89,
Isn't that the kind of the point of the "cheap law schools?"
I went to a law school in my home state, (A public school in a southern state that's in the lower part of the first tier, but not on this list), and the already low in-state tuition + the scholarship I received left me with minimal student loan bills.
Sure, the opportunities weren't quite as good as if I had gone to a T10 law school, but I got a position at a good firm in this middle market area.
I earn just about half of what associates in a big city earn, but combining my lack of student loan payments and the low CoL here, I'm willing to bet I'm keeping more of what I earn.
71 - BYU has been accredited since 1974.
http://www.abanet.org/legaled/approvedlawschools/alpha.html
100, that list hasn't been updated for a couple years. BYU lost accreditation a few years ago because of a low bar passage rate.
Looking at the actual list, Georgia, Wisconsin, Iowa and UNC are all on the list.
Georgia - 16
Wisconsin - 20
UNC - 22
Iowa - 35
Washington - 38
Indiana Bloomington - 40
Adjusting for actually getting a job, those are your T6 of the "best value" crowd.
101- that is a lie. BYU is a top tier (aka "top 50") law school. It is accredited.
101- that is a lie. BYU is a top tier (aka "top 50") law school. It is accredited.
For the cost of a one bedroom apartment in NYC, you can buy an entire ranch in Montana with a 4,000 sq. ft. house on the property.
The cost of living there is VERY low. It's also frigidly cold in the winter and you can drive for a 100 miles without passing a single town on the highway.
I think the more accurate title for this list is "Top 15 Law Schools Biglaw Associates Wish They Had Gone to so
They Wouldn't Need to Bill 2400 Hours a Year to Pay Off Their $300,000 in Debt"
Biglaw associates may have done better on the LSAT than the people at the schools in this list but clearly LSAT scores don't equate to intelligence, at least when it comes to choosing law schools. See, e.g., Every Post by Elie.
I am at GSU Law and I feel like I am getting an excellent legal education. I chose it over Emory because I knew I wanted to live and work in Atlanta after law school and I wanted to avoid post graduation debt. If I had wanted to transition elsewhere in the country after law school, I would have put down the money for Emory. GSU Law has a very committed faculty and a diverse student body. I am really proud of it and happy that it is being recognized for its value. There are other rankings that show how amazing Yale, Stanford, and Duke etc. are and this list doesn't take away from that. This list measures something different and I think it has its place.
To be fair, Bama's position on the list is skewed due to its reputation as a an IP feeder school. Without the IP factor, Bama is basically a more southern UNC (CH).
I'm glad to see southern and SEC schools final get the recognition they deserve for providing quality and low cost legal education to the residents of their community. High bar passage rates, and high employment rates and low tuition rates.
My Mississippi JD and Tennessee law license and thriving law practice only 3 years out of law school are proof positive. The rest of you big law drones are just haters for having wasted your money for a greed of the prestige of law instead of the a desire to practice law.
You might drive 100 miles without passing a town in Montana but you can be assured that there will be at least 3 bars you can stop at along the way.
Not everywhere is cheap in Montana either. Bozeman, Missoula and the Flathead all feature beautiful scenery and very expensive real estate. Huey Lewis lives in the Flathead, so, you know, that pretty much says everything.
Why are people arguing as to whether some of these law schools are accredited?!
They list US News rankings which as I recall only does accredited schools. To go one step further, with a quick Google search I came up with the ABA list which does include e.g. "Florida Int'l" etc.:
http://www.abanet.org/legaled/approvedlawschools/alpha.html
I only hope some commenters, if they actually are lawyers, do a better job checking facts relevant to their legal work.
Of course, living (and having gone to law school) outside of the U.S. (though I am as so many are, called in NY), I'm not a graduate of an ABA-approved law school, so I guess unlike some I don't have to try to boost my ego through denigrating other schools by questioning whether they're accredited instead of just checking...
Perhaps I should already know the answer to this question but is Florida International an ABA-accredited institution, or are its students required to sit for a "baby bar" as rising 2Ls before they continue their legal education?
111 -- clearly first time ATL reader
111, abanet is an infamous troll site. It's not the actual ABA list.
Count me among the satisfied GSU customers.
@13: Right, genius, the #11 ranked school for SCOTUS clerkship placement isn't accredited by the ABA. Fail.
BETTER RANKING: average reported starting salary (weighted 75%) and employment rate after nine months (weighted 25%):
1. BYU ($97,386) (98.7%) (1.000)
2. Georgia State ($79,003) (93%) (.844)
3. Florida ($76,911) (96.1%) (.835)
4. UNLV ($75,532) (93.6%) (.819)
5. Alabama ($72,527) (97.4%) (.806)
6. Tennessee ($70,800) (97%) (.791)
7. Florida State ($66,315) (98%) (.760)
8. Mississippi ($64,025) (88%) (.716)
9. Florida Int’l ($63,681) (86%) (.708)
10. Memphis ($59,000) (95%) (.695)
11. New Mexico ($53,675) (94%) (.651)
12. Nebraska ($52,589) (95%) (.646)
13. Idaho ($51,079) (85%) (.608)
14. Montana ($41,063) (91%) (.546)
15. N.C. Central (Unreported) (77%) (N/A)
The consistent use of "Tarheel" [sic] in this flame is genius.
Florida Coastal student here. One of the perks of going to a cheaper law school is the diversity found in classroom discourse. When we discussed the McDonald's case in Torts many of us had worked and/or were currently working for McDonald's while others had worked and/or were currently working for Burger King. Let's just say the debate would have made our Founding Fathers proud.
If you add Wisconsin and Minnesota to 117's ranking:
1. BYU ($97,386) (98.7%) (1.000)
2. Wisconsin ($91,014) (97%) (.947)
3. Minnesotta ($90,330) (93%) (.932)
4. Georgia State ($79,003) (93%) (.844)
5. Florida ($76,911) (96.1%) (.835)
6. UNLV ($75,532) (93.6%) (.819)
7. Alabama ($72,527) (97.4%) (.806)
8. Tennessee ($70,800) (97%) (.791)
9. Florida State ($66,315) (98%) (.760)
10. Mississippi ($64,025) (88%) (.716)
11. Florida Int’l ($63,681) (86%) (.708)
12. Memphis ($59,000) (95%) (.695)
13. New Mexico ($53,675) (94%) (.651)
14. Nebraska ($52,589) (95%) (.646)
15. Idaho ($51,079) (85%) (.608)
16. Montana ($41,063) (91%) (.546)
17. N.C. Central (Unreported) (77%) (N/A)
119 wins. We can all go home now.
23 is a sad Harvard/Yale/Stanford grad who can't find a job because his research skills stink. GSU has been accredited since 1984. When I graduated in 2007 we had the highest bar passage rate in the state (yes, we beat UGA and Emory). The best part is we can choose to work at small or midsize law firms because we don't need to earn a ton to pay our loans. Added perks of small and midsize practice: 1) Not having to work with Prestige Whores like 23 and 2) I don't have to spend years watching people draft Motions but I actually get to go argue them my first year of practice.