1st!!!

V5 doesn't include WilmerHale, is therefore wrong.

When did CSM lay off 25 people? No coverage here.

what is the point of the vault rankings? what social or industry utility does it have? This is the dumbest thing. It's about as useful as ranking who is a better known celebrity. Why do we need this?

I understand why you would want to have Amlaw 100 rankings based on revenues or PPP and potential usefulness of such data for laterals, students, competitor firms, etc...

Give me information that showed that Heller and Thelen were hurting which I'm sure would've been much apprecaited by laterals, partners, employees, associates and students with an interest in those firm.

The only bigger fool (than Vault) is a law student who picks one firm or another because of higer Vault ranking. Trust me, even in top law schools, there are plenty of them. Law students make such uninformed decision when picking firms and have such inability to even process useful information right under their nose. They spend more time, energy and thought picking flat screen TVs than their future employers. Vault really exacerbates this by producing this nonsense. Garbage in -- garbage out.

irell to v1.

Simpson laid off numerous attorneys

All of these firms should make way for the mighty Cadwalader.

5,

Without the vault rankings, how would one know whether one is prestigious? You might try asking on internet comment boards, but that only helps so much.

who gives a s&it. move on to anything else.

what is skadden in chicago?

Everyone I've ever met from Skadden was really cool. Everyone I've ever met who currently worked at S&C was a douche. Therefore, SAMSF > S&C.

New rank:

Wachtell
DPW
CGSH
C&B
W&C
.
.
.
the rest

Just bc law shucks doesn't have a number, doesn't mean that firings didn't take place. I know for fact one of those firms has fired multiple people and yet is listed as not having any layoffs.

these charts are wrong and misleading.

DPW has let go of numerous associates.

Skadden has sent over a hundred associates packing for a year, and they have no guarantee of a job when their sabbatical is done. Do you really think it's an accident that the amount Skadden is paying is equivalent to what associates might have gotten if they were laid off (4 months)?

with the exception of a few firms that have been open and somewhat honest about layoffs (Latham, Orrick, etc. and even then they probably did stealth layoffs we don't read about here), the numbers here are pure speculation.

Skadden as #3 regional in boston?? It's a 57-lawyer office.

Just a hint...the general prestige rankings are based on associate surveys. Associates that don't know anything about the market for law firms.

The partner prestige rankings, on the other hand, actually reflect the thoughts of people who actually know something about the legal market. I'm just saying.

V&E should be within the top 5.

Listen. The Vault surveys came out before most of the big layoffs. This isn't about those.

This is about the *Latham pay freeze* (%@#& Latham!) that hit in December 2008 and the weak bonuses everyone paid next to Skadden and Orrick (with only Skadden actually being able to afford said bonuses).

I'm still pissed at Latham for the pay freeze, Cravath & co for the bonus cut, and whichever V10 firm cuts base pay first.

seriously......very few people give a shit about this inane crap

Davis Polk did stealth layoffs. They don't deserve a top 5 ranking.

Williams & Connelly is harder to get a job with than any of these firms, with the possible exception of Wachtell.

Sorry but Cravath did not, strictly speaking, lay off anyone. They told a handful of midlevel Corporate associates who weren't busy and weren't on partnership track to start looking for a new job. These people were supposed to do find a new job within 3 months, but I know of one guy who has been AWOL and still collecting checks since about March. So it's not like they kick you out the door after 3 months (although I heard this dude was told that now November is the real deadline for him -- still 8 months pay ain't bad)

It used to be that you could just hang around forever at Cravath. No more. We had this one 14th year lit associate who probably billed about 700 hrs per year. He finally left, I take it not voluntarily, earlier this year.

So yes, Cravath has finally joined the modern world. But it hasn't laid off anyone.

Cravath didn't lay anyone off. Where did these numbers come from?

I'm gonna lateral to Wachtell. Seems like a pretty good firm.

I got a baaaaaaaaaaad feeling about tomorrow... stay tuned....

Skadden in Northern California has a combined 60 lawyers between SF and Palo Alto, but is still #1 in Vault. Nice.

As a non-firm lawyer, I couldn't care less.

Where is Skadden DC? It was 3rd last year.

None of these firms lathamed their first years.

Latham NY laid off mroe than half the first year class.

eww.

26 - Give details or stop trolling.

Many people have been laid off at Davis, and I personally know of 2 at Cleary. How does this work? Does ATL make up numbers, and then later use those numbers as if they are real because they have been "reported"?

Obviously the only firm purpose in getting a top Vault ranking is for law school recruiting. Talk to any partner or anyone in firm marketing. The only rankings that partners seem to really care about and include in marketing materials to clients (in my experience in two firms over the past 5 years) are the Chambers rankings. The AmLaw numbers have some relevance at the margins but it makes sense that clients care more about how good the lawyers are in a given practice area than how much money the firm has made off of other clients. Definitely no one gives a shit about Vault rankings except law students.

"V10" associate

Exhaustive list of top 20 firms that have laid off the majority of first years in one office:

1) Latham

33, the overall "prestige" rankings by Vault are fairly meaningless. Vault also has partner prestige rankings and practice group ranking. They are largely ignored but actually have value.

I thought McDermott Will & Emery would be on this list. When I interviewed with them for a summer associate position next summer (yes, they are hiring), the partner I spoke with was bragging to me about their strong health care practice and how it is one of the top in the nation. Wierd that they are not at the top. Odd.

I wish I was a woman.

Before the recent downturn, the V5 firms rarely fired anybody. Even after a series of bad reviews, the worst you'd be told is that you were not likely to be made partner and that you should look for new opportunities. Most people took the hint, but some just stuck around, kept getting crap work (7th years doing doc review, etc), and kept collecting paychecks and bonuses.

I left my V5 firm back on 05, but there are still some 8th or 9th years who I know got the 'hint' years ago that are still on the website, so maybe that's still the case. The simple reality is that if those firms can still squeeze 2000 hours of mediocre work out of someone they are still quite profitable. The associates know that they have no chance at partner, and some are just ok with it.

Kirkland layoffs? You mean the non-share partners who weren't going to make partner and told to move on a year ago? Or something else?

Paul Weiss for the win

Paul Weiss for the win

Don't kid yourselves - plenty of stealth layoffs going on at Cleary, particularly in offices other than New York. You should look into that.

Damn! Fuck these rankings! The worst thing that happened to this blog is when it became infested with law school students and recent law school grads. The only thing worse are the TTT grads that frequent this board talking shit, pretending as if they ever had any real career prospects in the first place.

- V5 midlevel associate to Federal Reserve Bank secure

Naive question: shouldn't "according to Vault Skadden is #3" actually be "according to the eleventy million associates who took the Vault survey Skadden is #3"? Or does everyone think Vault just makes up the survey results? Because, Elie wouldn't write "According to Gallup, blah blah" but rather "According to a Gallup poll of likely voters, blah blah?" (Actually Elie might say the former but whatever)

How can there be prestige if you can't afford a home that has a dedicated room with a 1080p projector, 120 inch screen, and 7.1 surround sound...on a first-year's salary?

Wachtell Lipton Rosen Katz = Ow Pentacle Shank Zit Troll. . . . Coincidence!?!?!?

This is all well and good for 2009, but in a few years you'll be seeing Gupta, Patel, Singh & Mehta, Solicitors and Advocates, headquartered in Hyderabad, as number 1.

"Vault's regional rankings are calculated using only the votes of the survey respondents in the particular region"
So it only takes a few dozen Skadden pimps in Boston and San Francisco to outshine the local hick firms. And that's according to the locals. Suck on my prestige, Ropes & Gray MoFos.

-Skadden pimp

"Skadden pimp" (as if): then why are "you" FIFTH the only place it matters: NYC. Jackass.

Who else can't wait until we get down to the Paul Hastings group (#32, I think)?

Also, all of you people bitching about Indian law firms sound like whiners who worked for GM and complain about all of the "sombrero-wearers" who now have "their" jobs. I'm laid-off, and it sucks, but the work going to India is a drop in the bucket.

How is Skadden prestigious? They definitely get big work, but they used to hire damn near anyone. Big, front-page-Journal deals, but not tough to get there.

I also don't understand how they're #1 in NorCal. I've practiced here (corporate) for 5 years, and have only seen them on the other side of a deal once (and it was their Chicago office).

Law shucks said these firms did stealth layoffs, but none did except S&C (at least any more than the firms not accused of stealth layoffs). S&C is the only firm that laid off a large number of associates and affirmatively and vocally stated it was for performance reasons and had nothing to do with the economy.

There are stealth layoffs going on EVERYWHERE (Except maybe WLRK).

No need to separately comment firm-by-firm.

Latham still stands alone, though.

How is this a "fall recruiting" thread? This is about the Vault rankings. They aren't the same thing. I would think a fall recruiting thread would at least discuss things like the planned size of the summer classes at these firms, or recent layoffs/deferrals. Not some meaningless vault score.

The Vault rankings were determined by votes made when Skadden was giving above-market bonuses, when Latham was freezing salaries, and before Weil closed an office and deferred associates to 2011. People have more information now.

Anyway, 17 and 35 are correct.

15,

I'm pretty sure the skadden associates sent packing were given a pretty good guarantee they could come back... what are you basing your comment on?

Skadden deserves a high ranking because the partners and counsel are genuinely nice to their associates. Its the kindest place to work in New York.

But I think Paul Weiss deserves a higher ranking too for not firing anyone and handling the recession with class. Plus Paul Weiss is also a VERY nice place to work.

The Skadden associates who were given the year off were GUARANTEED their job back when they return in a year. Although the expectation is a large number of them will pursue other interests.

If you still care about this Vault shit then there's something seriously wrong with you.

I seriously think you guys should hold out for at least $150k. Obviously your hard work from the LSAT to gaining acceptance to a T10 school to a place on law review clearly exemplifies your capability to do years of document review!

If not, feel free to start a bitchy-toned blog about your horrifying lack of fulfillment!

PS - Whining about your problems will only get you more problems. Enjoy!

I'm surprised Skadden is #1 in NorCal.

Anyone have the rest of the regional rankings?

Where is Wilson Sonsini? At one point, they were #1 in Bay Area and #10 overall.

Skadden no. 1 in NoCal b/c of local drug consumption.

Wilson Sonsini is 8, btw--seems low

I heard Ted Olson tried to lateral from Gibson to Skadden, but Skadden said they were too prestigious for him.

I thought Reed Smith would have been number one. Definitely above Wachtell.

Fuck Skadden

This is just another stupid thread. Since when did Vault rankings have anything to do with deferrals or recruiting practices?

32 - yes

65 - agreed

It's no big secret that Skadden told people to take the deferral "option" and never come back.

That said--what firm hasn't done stealth layoffs? At least they paid a good severance--4 months plus a year of health care.

Plus they paid a ridic bonus for no good reason and didn't rescind it like a cheaper firm like DPW would.

Having worked at two of the V5, I can attest that the only thing that separates these firms form most is their ability overstaff and overbill matters.

um, 48 - Ropes is, as always, number 1 in boston.

The methodology of the Vault rankings is obviously flawed. By itself, WILDMAN HARROLD's transnational raping and pillaging practice group is more prestigious than any of the listed firms.

Paul Weiss should be higher

LOL @ anyone who believes that "not firing people should be a big part of a firm's prestige".

Listen kids, the partners don't care about you. You are mere cannon fodder, just a means to an end. If there isn't enough work to go around, you're gonna get hauled out with the trash. No one ever said life was fair.

Skadden only carries prestige because some of its top practices genuinely are top practices. But this ignores how big the firm is and that a very significant proportion of their associates/partners don't deserve any recognition. Hence why Skadden has much lower RPL than CSM, S&C and DPW.

skadden is crap....!!!!!!

Skadden = least selective law firm in the V15, in terms of OCI recruiting. Especially the satellite offices - slightly above median at TTTs can get in.

Idiots. Vault is a survey of prestige according to associates and partners.

If Skadden is really that bad, why does it consistently remain a top 5 firm in both the associate and partner ranking? A case can be made for associates but why do Partners and General Counsels / Board Members consistently rank Skadden as one the top firms?

Silly law students who think they know better than people who actually deal with these firms everyday.

75 - Selective at the top schools = prestige?

Then your mom must not be very prestigious.

Simpson laid off a significant amount of attorneys too

THE ONLY VAULT RANKINGS THAT MATTER TO ASSOCIATES ARE THE SELECTIVITY AND COMPENSATION RANKINGS. "selectivity" is really what "prestige" is all about anyway, and compensation given hours worked is what ultimately matters for any job. what the hell else should associates care about?
ppp, etc only matter for PARTNERS!

1. SELECTIVITY
wachtell
williams & connolly
munger
covington
irell

2. COMPENSATION
wachtell
skadden
ropes
williams connolly
thompson knight

the inference from 79:

wachtell and williams are the top 2 firms in the nation. period.

17 is exactly right. these so-called prestige rankings come from associates at 165 law firms. they have nothing to do with revenue, profits, number or size of deals or cases, or any other substantive criteria. any wonder Latham slipped to 17? If you were an associate and Latham had just fired 10% of their young associates, how would you rate Latham? probably not very well. look at the AmLaw 100 when it comes out for 2009, look at the AmLaw chart for who represents corporate america, and look at the M&A league tables and The Daily Deal. These lists, unlike Vault, offer real, substantive rankings of law firms based on objective criteria and not a poll of a bunch of neophytes

Don't be obsessed with your desires Danny.

Vault is for kids. Chambers is for grown-ups.

ok 26 Yesterday you said today would be bad, stay tuned. I am tuned.......what gives?

83 -

Some clarification: 1) Vault is for where you want to TELL people you work. 2) Chambers is where you find your rationalization for #1.

What exactly are stealth layoffs?

SkaddenDC has been the big swinging dick of that town for years. Deal with it.

I don't see V&E Houston, is this a mistake?

Law students need some certainty. BigLaw should announce that there will be no Fall recruiting for the next ten years. It's going to work out that way anyway, so why not be up front about it. You folks in law school are well and truly fucked.

89: Really? Are we? Those of you that come on here to bash lawyers when we're raking in the dough and salaries are skyrocketing reek of inferiority complexes. Those that come here during a downturn show their insecurity by trying to kick students when they're down. Things are already picking up and you guys will be back to the former way of displaying your insecurities.

Have fun being a loser.

89: Really? Are we? Those of you that come on here to bash lawyers when we're raking in the dough and salaries are skyrocketing reek of inferiority complexes. Those that come here during a downturn show their insecurity by trying to kick students when they're down. Things are already picking up and you guys will be back to the former way of displaying your insecurities.

Have fun being a loser.

"Kirkland layoffs?"

The lawyers prob were just the NSPs. But has anyone noted how they managed some (all?) of the staff layoffs in Chicago?

They waited until they helped with the move to the new building and then--w/o warning--deactivated their access cards and gave them the news in the lobby. Classy stuff.

81

The vault rankings are not meaningless. Lower ranked firms attract less talent. Less talent will eventually mean shittier work.

Latham NY laid off more than half the first year class, half the second year class, a third of the third year class, and many other.

Latham LA laid off a third of the first year class, and many others.

Latham DC laid off 25% of the first year class, and many others.

Latham has destroyed hundreds of careers. No other firm in the V10 or even the V20 has done this. Not only that, but morale is in the toilet and Latham has become a miserable place to work. This is why Latham fell. Now, if you were a top lateral or law student, why would you go to this hellhole? If you were a client, why would you pay Latham rates when you could hire a competitor that still brings in top talent?

The numbers for Weil are very misleading. Weil didn't lay off any attorneys. They simply closed one of their 3 Texas offices and offered associates in the closed office to move to one of the other 2.

Agreed, that chart is very misleading. To my knowledge, Weil has not conducted any layoffs beyond the occasional ousting for performance reasons.

Cleary has laid off a significant number of lawyers too.

All firms are the same. The only difference is how well they keep it a secret.

93

Agreed, but of course there are outliers. Talent doesn't go to Skadden over Davis Polk or even Debevoise.

97

I agree

Anyone dissatisfied with the new rankings should call 922-2222 ASAP.

Hundredth

32 and 96, why are you lying about Cleary? I'm at Cleary, and no associates have been laid off yet. If there were layoffs, Associates would send in the termination letters to ATL in a heartbeat.

1. The Skadden sabbatical was not offered with the intention of sacking those who took it. In fact, I know several stellar associates who were granted permission to take the sabbatical that the firm clearly wants back and are on track to make partner.

2. Skadden rocks!!!

3. If you go anywhere else to practice...you're clearly not a serious attorney.

-- Skadden Associate

What's a Cravath? Some kinda of fancy necktie?

Christmas is over, and business is business.

101 - you're next on the list of those up for severance for being so retarded. Why would anyone publicize the fact that the firm they got laid off from is doing stealth layoffs? Think about it for a minute or 10 (you may not get it)...