first

1 - I will weep in silence

2

Do I get a callback from all these firms for being first?

-1

I have not heard anything great about Kirkland in the past 6 months. I feel like their rankings are overinflated.

Weil did set the bar for stipend (even though they have pushed some start dates to Jan. 2011).

Notice that Latham is no longer #7 or a top 10 firm

Latham NY laid off more than half the first year class after only 4 months of work.

Latham's chickens (pause) are coming home to roost

"Regardless of whether or not those moves catch up with Weil next year, right now is Weil's time to shine in the warm recruiting light of sixth place. Congrats."

WTF is that supposed to mean? Like, although everyone knows that Weil has had layoffs and is not as safe as people thought it was prior to the Vault voting, recruits will necessarily ignore that newer, more detailed and accurate information and instead rely on a single number in the old print media Vault guide exclusively? Maybe but I doubt it.

Vault was a dumb idea to begin with but in light of the current economic climate and general web-availability of information on demand, it's even dumber.

Do Suffolk Grads need to take the bar if applying for paralegal?

Dear Latham:

Top 10 firms don't

1) layoff half the first year class in NY only 4 months after they start (that was really dirty)
2) layoff 45% of associates in NY
3) layoff a third of the first year class in LA only 4 months after they start (that was dirty as hell)
4) layoff about 400-500 associates after promising "there will be no layoffs."

8 - exactly.

#7 = Latham's memorial spot.

LOL

The Latham we knew and loved died in 2008. Let us remember her as she once was.

Weil should go f itself. NY threw DC's summer class under the bus to buy its "prestige."

I think Covington has jumped around between 8 and 11 on and off for years. Not a "V10" newcomer. Also, not that it matters given the worthlessness of Vault's survey "methodology" and quickly-eclipsed relevance (per #8).

Paul Weiss should be higher. This is bullshit

@13: How?

Lat -- the quality of writing and research in this post is truly Elieesque:

The typo: "shows the power the high profile work"

The erroneous citation: the embedding link under the words "laying off associates" takes you to the ATL article where it explains that no associates were laid off pursuant to the closing of Weil's Austin office.

The second typo: "I don't think anyone expects for Simpson to suffer the same fate as its #7 predecessor".

The second erroneous citation: Covington & Burling was in the V10 in 2008, so it should be "Welcome back to the V10."

Quinn should be higher. This is an abomination.

13 -- WTF are you talking about? If you don't have any specifics STFU.

Did Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton change its name to Cleary without me finding out about it? No?

Kirkland has not given out offers to its summer class even though the program ended in July

16, 19 - ask any 2009 Weil DC summer, myself included. That 95% offer rate in NY came at a price.

22 -- If you call that answer being specific than no wonder you weren't given an offer.

whoa, latham fell ten spots in just one year.

"16, 19 - ask any 2009 Weil DC summer, myself included. That 95% offer rate in NY came at a price."

DC offer rate?

13, 22: I already did ask you. Are you saying that you and all the other D.C. summers did not receiver offers? What percentage of D.C. summers didn't get offers? Don't just come on here and make some bald accusation without backing it up with facts.

25 -

~50% is the mathematical maximum. 0% AFAIK. We do believe one person did get an offer, though, so probably ~10%.

17: Weil never laid any attorneys off, but it did close its Austin office. Despite the fact that all (16) Austin attorneys were offered jobs at the Houston and Dallas offices, ATL is considering them "layoffs." That's why the link points to that story.

Kirkland did really well in the partner rankings.

Partner Prestige
#1 - General Commercial Litigation
#1 - Intellectual Property
#1 - Private Equity
#2 - Bankruptcy/Creditors' Rights
#3 - IP Litigation
#10 - Overall Prestige

15 & 18 can't get a hard-on this year for their annual jack off session to the Vault rankings.

28 -- I understood the nature of ATL's error, but thanks for the explanation anyway.

Telling employees that they have to move from one office to another is not a layoff in any industry. It happens all the time (see e.g. I-Banking). I doubt they'd qualify for unemployment insurance in TX either if they opted to quit and take severence pay, because they weren't terminated. It doesn't satisfy a common sense test or a legal standard test of what consitutes a temination.

vault lathamed latham

27 - This makes no sense. Let me make it easier for you. How many summers were in DC? How many received offers?

According to previous ATL posts, Weil NY had 100 summer associates and an offer rate of about 93% (the exact percentage depends on whether you count offers to returning summers as 2009 offers).

If you don't know how many summers were in DC and how many were given offers and you are trying to somehow derive that percentage based on the firm's overall offer rate (which you obviously also don't know), you need to also include summers in Dallas, Houston, Silicon Valley, Boston and Miami in your calculations.

Frankly it looks like 26 is right and you have no facts just BS.

That said, 31, fuck if I'd move to a hellhole like Houston or Dallas. Austin is the only arguably tolerable city in TX. Being told to move to Houston is essentially constructive termination. Not saying it's a legal argument (for the literal-minded posters out there).

22, 27-

If it makes you feel any better, Weil is screwing over its silicon valley summers too.

weil should never be ranked higher than stb

35 -

What are the Weil Silicon Valley numbers?

34 -- too true. Austin is probably the best city for QOL. No state taxes, really low COL, a university community, cooler/wetter climate (for TX) and a significant percentage of transplants from the NE cities.

Dallas gets you the tax break and COL advantages but you gotta be the type of person who likes guns, cowboy hats and country music to fit in.

Houston is just a dump.

anyone know what Simpson did in its SV office?

35 -- Hold up. Are you talking about deferrals or no offers? Damn it. Be specific.

In response to the Applied Discovery event announced below, I ask what NYC law firm associates are able to get out of work by 6 pm on a Monday to go to a cocktail party? Not me, that's for damn sure.

41 -- UNEMPLOYED nyc law firm associates. That's who.

holy b'jesus, Latham has fallen 10 spots!

Chances Latham Lathams Dave Gordon for Lathaming Latham?

I think it's fairly ridiculous that Latham is still in the top 20. They are clearly less safe and more poorly managed than just about any firm in the top 50 if not 100. Besides Orrick.

34 -- I just read the Weil memo about the Austin office closing and it doesn't say associates can only relocate to other Texas offices. It says that the sole partner in the Austin office is moving to Houston and the associates can move to other Weil US offices. Considering that office was mostly IP, may be they can go to the Silicon Valley office. Since Austin won't close officially until 2010, we probably won't know until then where assocaites are relocating.

This, of course, further illustrates that there were no layoffs by Weil in Austin.

45 -- I don't know about that. Latham cut so deep that they may end up needing to hire before they need to do more layoffs. The firms with steep drops in PPP and small or no layoffs are the ones that are not safe. That shit won't fly.

42 - assuming that I can find two matching dress shoes (haven't needed them since January), you're right.

37, 40 -

Something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the weil sv class is going to be no offered.

i'm biased, but cleary should move up. market pay and our jobs are much more secure than assocs at most of these top ten firms.

47

STFU Bob Dell. Mass layoffs are a sign of terrible management. Good firms defer, or, get this, bring in enough work to AVOID mass firing their associates. Like, for example, your competitor Gibson Dunn, Weil G, etc. who have are busy and have not done mass layoffs.

35/49 - You guys haven't heard yet? They dinged us in DC real fast, immediately after the last guy (who started and stayed late) left. We know you were way oversubscribed, though.

51 -- slow your roll man. I said Latham may not be the least safe firm. I agree massive layoffs are a sign of terrible management. My argument is the same one that Cadwalader made after it's massive layoffs. These firms operate like I-banks. When a practice area is hot they staff up to take as much of the business as they can handle and then when the bubble pops they fire everybody in those groups. They cut early and deep and then wait for the next bubble. It sucks to be fired, but once they've laid off half their associates they don't need to lay off the other half cause they're suddenly busy trying to handle twice the workload.

My point is still valid that the firms where associates should be most anxious are the ones in the back half of the V100 with declining PPP and modest or no layoffs. That's a powder keg scenerio.

Can somebody help me out and explain the question to 52.

How...many...summers...were ...in...DC? How...many...summers.. received...offers?

If you can understand and answer the above then try the same two questions for SV. I don't want to hear about "the last guy" or how "~50% is the mathematical maximum" or any other nonsense.

- 33

Confirmed, Kirkland has yet to offer any summers positions. They are waiting to announce firmwide at the same time, but haven't announced when that will take place. They are likely going to no-offer a bunch of summers and do a round of layoffs and want to get all the bad news out at once.

53

3 words for you: double dip recession

42-

The dings have started, but there are still a couple of summers there until the beginning of Sept., so we won't know the true casualty rate until they finish.

I think Kirkland should be flip-flopped with Covington. It seems to be stronger and more respected across more practice groups. The other rankings seem about right, though Skadden being up that high seems dubious. But then it's junior associates who control this thing.

54 -- you need to stop encouraging these Weil trolls. They're making up offer numbers for Weil's summer classes to provoke responses. I summered at Weil NY and almost everyone got an offer. None of these clowns really summered at Weil.

I work at one of these firms and really wish that this site didn't cater to entitled law students who don't know anything about the practice of law. I am especially irritated by the critics of Latham. The layoffs were brutal and are a sign of poor management. But SIX months severance would be enough for me to live on for a year. Partners are greedy and would often sell their mothers for a dollar. But do you really expect another adult to take care of you when there is no work to be had. I wouldn't want a lawyer who feels like his career is over because he was laid off from his first job out of school and spends his time badmouthing partners who obviously couldn't care less. I'm glad I went to a TTT with minimal debt and grew a pair years ago.

What 60 said!

55 - what is your source for layoffs and no offers at Kirkland?

60 - Even if you could live on that severance for a year, good luck finding a job in that amount of time.

--Going on 8 months since lay-off, no serious prospects

59, you must be retarded. We are talking about Weil's DC and SV offices, not NY. And you're probably full of shit about summering at NY anyways; if not, tell us where the person at the bottom of p. 31 of the SA facebook is going to law school. If you can't, then fuck off.

60

...went to a TTT,

Dave?

This is 60. I will play on ATL until my wife finishes dinner. 63--> I don't mean to trivialize your plight, but as professionals there comes a point when we have to roll the dice and create our own opportunities. And for an example of the kind of douchebag I work with please see 64.

kirkland said "mid-august" for summer offers... still nothing (though tomorrow's still "mid-august")

63 -- imagine how much worse it would be if you had started in the 2009 class at Bear Stearns, Citibank, BofA or Lehman. You're fired a few weeks after you arrive with no severence and competing against 100,000 fired I-bankers (in NYC alone) all with more experience.

In contrast you were let go four months after starting with six months severence and are competing against at most the 5100 lawyers who've been laid off since January 2008 nationwide (according to Law Shucks layoff tracker). Of course this assumes that none of the 5100 lawyers have found work in the preceding 18 months. More likely you're too f-cking lazy to find work and find it easier to bitch about your last job where you got paid for 10 months and worked four. Poor baby.

68

And you wonder why your firm has fallen 10 spots in one year. You're going to keep tumbling until you learn how to treat associates fairly.

Did something happen at Latham? Were any first years affected?

"The Lockerbie bomber tonight landed in Libya to a hero's welcome as thousands greeted him at the airport waving flags and posters."

THIS IS THE PRODUCT OF LIBERALISM.

THIS IS THE PRODUCT OF LIBERALISM.

THIS IS THE PRODUCT OF LIBERALISM.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1207816/Obamas-desperate-appeal-Lockerbie-bomber-die-Scottish-prison-killers-fate-decided.html

@71 -

LOL WUT?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ncxk-dNf82k/SU_nzaBQYOI/AAAAAAAAAt8/kBU85RZhEaY/s320/lol+wut+pear.jpg

55, stop talking out of your ass. Are you just bitter about the salary freeze at Sidley?

Laid-off Latham losers make up 90% of the whining, but among V100 firms, Latham laid off only the fifth most attorneys (the top 4 are Allen & Overy, Clifford Chance, Linklaters and White and Case). DLA and Cadwalader are #6 and #7 and they laid off almost the same number as Latham.

Latham attorneys got the best severence package of any of these firms, but they bitch more than the rest combined. Frankly I'm sick of the Latham losers hijacking every post on ATL to bitch and complain.

The attorneys who lost their jobs at these other firms were too busy job hunting to whine on ATL. The Latham losers are waiting for their severence and unemployment to run out before they get off their asses.

There I said it.

Covington has lower RPL (for litigation turnover) than Holland & Knight, but somehow they're ranked in the top 10 for prestige. Just shows how absurd Vault is.

The only thing prestigious about Covington is their PR/marketing dept, which does an awesome job of maintaining the myth that the firm is "prestigious" and commands premium rates.

71: Be that as it may, it has nothing to do with the topic in question.

75, stuffing partners' pockets off of your slave labor does not equal "prestigious"; it equals "lower hourly wage."

I think Cleary is underrated. And no, I don't work for them.

77 -- by your logic, there are plenty of "midlaw" firms that should be ranked in the top 10 then!

i agree that "prestige" is a silly metric for associates to go by -- they should be looking at training, compensation, and selectivity -- 3 metrics that covington does poorly in.

SO, cov does poorly in those metrics, as well as in RPL, yet they're somehow "prestigious." I guess they are -- the same way GM is "prestigious" in the auto industry.

77 -- btw, when i say "poorly", i mean that other firms not in the top 10 did better than covington (eg, munger, williams).

I want to become a woman.

75 - if you define prestige based on RPL then you deserve to spend your days toiling at a firm like cadawalder that chase the most mindless work and just churns it out hour after hour, day after day, all for the sake of maximizing their RPL. Or how about some successful ambulance chasing plaintiff's firm? I bet they have a very high RPL.

I, on the other hand, will enjoy better hours, far more stimulating and challenging work and in far more interesting fields, not to mention the fact that I will do all that at a firm intimately connected to, and intertwined with, the most important and powerful leaders in the world.

Wait, Covington does poorly in selectivity? Why is that?

Also, the basis for your claim that they do poorly in training. What exactly is the metric for this?

82 -- are you intertwined with AND connected to, or just intertwined with them? I bet the deputy special assistant secretary to the assistant to Transportation is a REAL rainmaker!

as the poster before said, nobody is saying that RPL is a perfect metric. but in the other metrics that DO matter for young associates -- selectivity, training, compensation -- cov is beat by other firms that clearly should have done better in the overall "prestige" rankings.

for example, munger is clearly superior to cov in every possible way, yet it's ranked lower. why? b/c of cov's Transportation Law practice?

"shows the power the high profile work. "

its been three and a half hours. fix the typo you fat, lazy fuck.

i don't see Cov ranked in the top 10 in any of the vault practice area rankings.

how does this translate into being in the top 10 overall? does being "sorta good" in a bunch of things = being top 10 overall? i'm no harvard mba, that doesn't sounds like a winning business model to me!

I just finished partaking in a private show with Collette over at Rick's Cabaret. Gentelmen, if you can afford it, I recommend her one on one session in the VIP lounge. I am ready for my evening slumber. Before I retire for the evening, I thought I would appeal to most of you since I am in a reflective and candid mood.

I have two sons who both wanted to emulate me by becoming lawyers. I remember bringing my eldest son to work one day when he was 12 so that he could witness what awaited him once he became an attorney. I introduced him to several associates at the firm. My eldest son was fascinated with one associate who I will call "Maury." Maury was a hard worker who had become a functional alcoholic. Maury was very bright and realized that wearing a necklace of garlic cloves under his white shirt was a much more effective way to hide the stench of scotch than by dousing himself with Obsession cologne.

My son remarked "Dad, why does Maury look sick?" I told my son that the law had made Maury ill and now his medicine was in an 80 proof bottle of liquor. My son then asked "How come you are not sick like Maury dad?" I explained to my son that when I became a lawyer, it was a much more civilized time. Most of us just wanted to do quality work and make a name for ourselves without focusing on compensation and perks. Today, I see too many "Maurys" who have become obssessed with prestige. Perhaps I take prestige for granted but is it really worth killing yourself over?

I will admit over the years, I became resentful of associates who knew nothing about the practice of law despite their sterling credentials and who expect a corner office and to be made partner within 8 years just for breathing while billing a couple of thousand hours a year. I am old fashioned. The lawyers of today have desecrated my profession. It is for this reason that I am draconian and cruel to them. I can't help but think that it was this generation of attorneys that has made me this way.

I am afraid I have rambled too much. I had too much scotch and all I can see as I type into my small phone's screen are Collette's 38Ds. I am sure most of you can read between the lines. Sure working for a peer firm is an accomplishment but in this day, you are only asking for brutal punishment...and I will be there to dispense it.

Sent from Partner Emeritus's Touch Pro 2 Smartphone.

Why does no one remember that Latham gauranteed its summers start dates in 2010? I hope those Skadden and Weil summers have something to keep them busy for a year, like reading vault rankings.

1. Binder & Binder

The rest is just details

K&E needs to grow a pair and (a) lay off the corporate bloodsuckers and (b) structure the bonuses this year to compensate those of us who still fucking work 2400 hours a year.

PE - How are you posting on ATL from a phone? Is that possible? Thank you for the story, I enjoyed it. Please reflect more often.

88

sorta like Bob Dell's "no layoffs" promise, right? Latham first years were told a number of times that they wouldn't be laid off. you know the rest.

LOL

78: I too think Cleary is underrated. And yes I do work for them.

"Weil's strong move up the Vault charts -- the firm was ranked #9 last year -- shows the power the high profile work."

What the f is this? I am obviously not smart enough to get into any of the aforementioned firms considering I can't even read a simple sentence. Unless........

Cleary has laid off a large number of mid-level and senior associates in NY. No it's not underrated.

Hey Elie I tried to hit you up on missed connections but didn't get a reply. I coulda sworn you were eye humping me. I was the one in the green tank and flops yestderday at the Sbarro. I had long hair and a goatee. Hit me up babe!

Is anyone going to Villanova's Law Review Symposium? It's about seduction or something and I hear mark sargents gonna be pimpin some hoes there

"time to shine in the warm recruiting light of sixth place"

ah, now i understand:

elie writes by randomly arranging the "magnetic poetry" pieces stuck to his fridge while simultaneously taking hits off an aerosol can of Cool Whip

Does anybody who is not either 1) a law student 2) a 4th year Associate or below or 3) a tremendous douche give a flying fuck about Vault rankings anymore?

If you still have a job in biglaw after the carnage of last year, anywhere in the vault whatever, rejoice, as your checks clear and you are gainfully employed. Save your cash, and let the monkeytrolls here worry about whose the most prestigious and who is the biggest TTT.

99, that must have felt good, huh? i'm sure this whole 'prestige' thing will start winding down now. thanks, we needed to hear that. good night everyone!

Does anyone else enjoy the way a cool cucumber feels on their epiglottis?

Mass layoffs but hordes of foreign attorneys still in big law. Something is wrong with this picture.

68: Those laid-off i-bankers shouldn't have been i-bankers to begin with. There are too many of them than is healthy. They should go do something more productive for the economy. That is one of the straightforward consequences of the de-levering of the economy and, in particular, the financial sector.

68: Those furloughed i-bankers shouldn't have been i-bankers to begin with. There are too many of them than is healthy. They should go do something more productive for the economy. That is one of the straightforward consequences of the de-levering of the economy and, in particular, the financial sector.

Covington Hater (79, 80, 84), obviously RPL has nothing to do with "prestige." 77 is absolutely right. (And 79, your "midlaw" point is off the mark, since those firms don't pay the "unfrozen" 160k scale and thus do not pay a relatively high hourly wage -- to the extent even that has anything to do with "prestige".)

As far as those other factors, "sectivity, training and compensation"? Cov is a hell of a lot more selective than Skadden, for instance, as well as pretty much every other V10 firm save Wachtell and Cravath. So are about 50 other firms. I have no idea what basis you have for comparing training among firms. I'd grant you that Kirkland's formal training is superior; but not the big NYC firms'. And compensation is market. Not following that one. No pay freeze. I do wish the bonuses were higher but they're basically market provided you put in some hours.

I do agree that Munger is more prestigious than any firm in the top 10, possibly with the exception of Wachtell (but I'd still say Munger's lit department is far more prestigious than Wachtell's). But that's not really a Covington point. That's a "the Vault is fairly worthless because it simply aggregates the uninformed opinions of ignorant associates who don't know about smaller, uber-selective shops like Munger, Kellog Huber, and Bartlit Beck, that won't look at you unless you're SCOTUS clerk material" point.

I'm not sure what "training" has to do with prestige anyway. Not to say it's not a good thing; but I don't see the relevance. Selectivity really seems like it ought to be the most relevant, if not exclusive, factor.

105 - plz 2 learn how 2 use semicolonz, kthx.

PE is the only one remotely entertaining in this inane blog. Hey PE, publisher here, I can offer you a book deal.

WHY DID I PICK CLEARY OVER WEIL?!

FML.

108, i don't think that's a bad mistake. weil may have better bankruptcy and litigation groups, but cleary is still better than weil for most corporate transactional stuff.

weil forever. and ever.

the whole "Weil is going to shine in OCI because of its #6 ranking" idea is a joke. 2Ls aren't thinking "high profile work!" or "ooh #6 is better than #5" when they think Weil, they're thinking "maybe I'll get to start in 2013...maybe." Of course, 2Ls don't have much of a choice this recruiting season anyway, but for what it's worth, that #6 ranking isn't going to fool them into thinking Weil is a safe bet.

110 - if you mean the length of the incoming/summer associate deferral, then yes.

Wait, how is Paul, Weiss not in the top 10?

Guess maybe next year things will shake up...

105, training has to do with prestige because when you are well-trained, both formally and by getting substantive work at an early level through trial by fire, you are equipped to actually practice law. And that's a good thing because most people aren't going to stay at these megafirms till they are partners.

At Kirkland, I had deposition training and lots of mock-trial training (KITA) from year 1. As a first year, I also did dep outlines, wrote Daubert motions, motions in limine, draft briefs, participated in witness prep, drafted orders of proof, prepared Partners for hearings, and attended trial. While friends at S&C and Cravath did doc review and due diligence. And that's IT.

It ain't all about PPP and "prestige" rankings (though the firm does well on those fronts) while you sit there and do doc review and due diligence for three years. Shouldn't be anyway. People who think it is, and firms that structure their practices in that manner, need to wake up.

Cravath isn't more selective than S&C or Davis Polk.

Further, I would say selectivity is the LEAST important factor. If the firm is extremely profitable, is highly rated across all practice groups, and gets interesting and challenging work, I could care less if it's populated with lawyers from New York Law School with 2.0s.

That would never happen. But you get my point. "Selectivity" is just a means to an end.

-114

"105, training has to do with prestige because when you are well-trained, both formally and by getting substantive work at an early level through trial by fire, you are equipped to actually practice law."

What in the world makes you think that having lawyers who are equipped to actually practice law has a direct correlation with prestige?

-Not 105

"What in the world makes you think that having lawyers who are equipped to actually practice law has a direct correlation with prestige?"

Because it does. I know plenty of people from the top schools who came to firms predominately because of the formal and informal training. So, there's your selectivity right there.

And it also has to do with prestige because those lawyers do a good job from early on, earning the firm high practice group ratings. The practice group ratings of firms with good training reflect this. Take a look.

Given the change in the economy over the past 1-2 year and the resulting downturn in demand for legal services what would have been the optimal lawfirm response re current staffing levels and summer programs?

105 -- good points. vault clearly under-values smaller non-NY boutiques like munger,

but how do you explain that cov is ranked higher than williamsconnolly? w&c is unquestionably more selective than cov.

btw, vault ranks informal and formal training.

LaTTTham

111, to be fair, the Vault rankings mean SHIT in this economy. 2Ls are beggars right now, and they'll need to take what they can get. The top 10 firms are getting flooded with resumes, and the classes are gonna be tiny. I'm pretty sure a 2L's concerns over being deferred, etc. are nowhere on any of these firms' radar...

"Covington has lower RPL (for litigation turnover) than Holland & Knight, but somehow they're ranked in the top 10 for prestige."

75, what the hell are you talking about? RPL for litigation matters? Litigation is only a fraction of Covington's practice; of course that dilutes its litigation RPL. According to the 2009 AmLaw 100, Covington's RPL (from all practices, not just litigation) is $945,000; Holland & Knight's is $590,000. (Williams & Connolly, for what it's worth, is not in the AmLaw 100, so who knows what its RPL is.)

Wait, after not seeing V&E Houston yesterday in the last post, I thought for sure they would be here.

122 - I agree. As I said above, 2Ls won't have much of a choice this year and will be happy to get any job at all. For those few who actually have a choice between Weil and another firm, one with a realistic chance for starting them Fall 2011 (or even sometime in 2012), I think the choice becomes pretty obvious. Which is actually good for Weil, as they probably don't want any summer class at all and certainly don't want to be starting "class of 2011" associates in 2011 or 2012.

p.s. I still have no idea how a list of the Vault rankings 6-10 qualifies as a "fall recruiting" thread. This is pretty stupid, ATL.

-111

To all real attorneys who actually work at a law firm or clients who procure legal services, when was the last time that you heard anyone at the office mention Vault rankings. Nobody, except law students, cares about Vault rankings or what a bunch of whiny kids with no actual practice experience thinks about the prestige of a law firm. Clients hire the partner involved not the firm.

95: No it has not.

123 -- are you insane? The Lawyer did a study last year on the 50 Transatlantic Firms by Litigation Turnover. Holland and Knight RPL was $700mm and Cov's was $450mm.

That pretty much suggests that at least their litigation dept sucks. Sure, other practice areas may boost their RPL, but i wouldn't be counting on cov's corporate practice anytime soon!

Btw, Amlaw does list W&C's RPL (search Westlaw's Amlaw database) -- it's $1,040,00. And that's PURE litigation.

126 - Elie just fucked it up. ATL has a "Vault 100: Open Thread" section. He meant for the post to go there, but his fat fingers mashed the keys and it ended up in Fall Recruiting.

Last night when this post went up, it said Lat wrote it which was shocking considering it was a piece of crap full of dumb obvious errors. Now this morning it's got Elie's name on it and that little mystery is solved.

Dear God Latham has tanked.

Bob Dell said Latham would get through this recession stronger than ever!

lol, no.

but he also said there was a place for the first years at latham. turns out that place was the unemployment line

Where is Paul Hastings on this list? Seth and Greg must have gotten burnt while cooking the books.

100 - 99 here. I don't expect to change the world with that comment. I imagine insecure kiddos (who all make pretty much the exact same amount of money, thanks to the glory of the fading, but not faded lockstep) will continue to argue over who's got longest prestige dong well into the future.

Me, personally, back when I was with a vault whatever firm for 6-7 years- I never really bothered to check its ranking (I assume 50? just guessing though) as long as my checks cleared and my bonus matched the top of the market - which it did.

Otherwise, I was either 1) too busy with work or 2) too drunk to care when not at work during this time period. I don't even think vault existed, or was just first starting out, back when I summered so I didn't check it then either.

You are welcome for me sharing.

"123 -- are you insane? The Lawyer did a study last year on the 50 Transatlantic Firms by Litigation Turnover. Holland and Knight RPL was $700mm and Cov's was $450mm."

Holland and Knight generates $700mm in litigation revenue per lawyer? That's pretty impressive.

31 - when did ATL EVER let the facts get in the way of a good [or maybe marginally interesting] story? It is better for them to say that Weil did layoffs in Austin than to say that they treated the attorneys (and indeed all of the staff) in the Austin office well and offered them alternatives once they decided to close the office.

In case you haven't noticed, ATL doesn't actually analyze the information at hand and present it in an even handed and inciteful way. Instead, they look for the worst possible "spin" - regardless of what the facts are. Anyone looking for inciteful analysis should clearly look elsewhere.

Kirkland is top in IP litigation according to Chambers? Seriously? This makes me question the usefulness of such rankings.

I had the distinct displeasure of being in a joint defense group with Kirkland on an IP lit case. The only positive thing I can say (and I'm generally a positive person) is that they really know the FRE.

Strategic thinkers? Knowledge of IP law? Knowledge of the technology they were dealing with? Pleasant to interact with? No, no, no, and no. But, they sure knew the FRE.

Actually 136 they are deliberately inciteful. They just aren't very insightful.

I interviewed with Kirkland, Weil and STB this week. To my knowledge no one who interviewed with them this week has heard about callbacks. When can I expect to not hear?

Hey latham partner,

fire bob dell and dave gordon for ruining what used to be a good firm.

thank you

108-- Maybe because you're not a sociopath?

Wonder why Cleary's stealth layoffs haven't made it to the media---a lot from Class '03 and '04 have been let go for "performance" reasons.

"What do you guys know about these firms that Vault does not."

Why doesn't Elie use question marks.

Is it because he ate all the question marks.

inciteful. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

PE is the #1 reason to read this blog.

K&E is a fine firm, and the IP group is outstanding. Unfortunately, they had a few IP litigators in NY who were particularly awesome and who left because of BS firm politics.

Can anyone expand on the comments about Cleary stealth layoffs?

I knew LaTTTham was going into the toilet when they started sending out goofy-ass threat letters for Scientology.

95: Cleary has not done any stealth layoffs. The people who have left have left voluntarily. Talk to any associate at the firm, not one of them believes the firm has conducted stealth (or otherwise) layoffs. Nor are they worried that it might. Admittedly, the contingent of foreign lawyers in the NY office has not been given offers to continue at the firm (in years past they generally were) but current homegrown JDs are pretty safe.

I can't speak for foreign offices, however.

The snark about Covington's transportation law practice is ridiculous. The firm is Chambers ranked in a ton of other regulatory areas, many of which are a hell of a lot more interesting than doing the same securitization or form transaction for the 141st time. Add in the much higher degree of selectivity than the dying breed of Cravath-model NYC firms, better hours, lower cost of living, much better job security, and it isn't even close.

Harp on about out of context stats and NYC-centric nonsense if you want, your jobs up there still suck much, much more than those of attorneys at Cov.

" has not been given offers to continue at the firm"

This may be the best euphanism for told to get the fuck out on record. I hear half of the first years at Latham were not given offers to contimue at the firm as well.

151-- right, but foreign associates are hired for 1-year stints, and then the expectation is that they'll go back to their previous firm. in most years, 1-2 foreign lawyers are asked to stay on. this year, i dont think any were.

Please be clear - Latham laid off most people by number 500 and by percentage 25% worldwide. Don't just look at 190 official layoff number in lawshucks. That number does not include stealth (but painfully real) layoffs.

Latham will fall more below top firms in LA. Latham in NYC is a joke already and once Goldman leaves them, they are screwed. How can you have more partners in securities (their old bread and butter) than associates? I predict ranked in 30s and 40s next year. Rats of New York.

Any others care to chime in re: Cleary's stealth layoffs??

152 and 154 -- I'd like to know more about Cleary's foreign lawyer program. I'm at a V10 and we have a lot of associates with LLMs (or just foreign without LLM if from Australia, New Zealand or U.K.). As far as I know, none of them are here for a prescribed amount of time. They typically will be let go before JDs, but I didn't think it's contractual and any that are let go are paid full severence. Is it accurate that Cleary recruits these foreign associates with the expectation that they are only working one year? That's unusual. Do they get severence? Approximately how many of them have an LLM and how many are recruited directly from their home country? This is the true nature of stealth layoffs in the V10 -- the silent scream of the visa worker.

I assume my firm and any V10 would give themselves the contractual right to terminate these employees, assuming they have a contract and aren't just working on an at-will basis. So technically it's a decision not to renew or extend the contract (or visa).

Still the only way I would say this isn't firing attorneys is if the associates expected to be let go in one year when they agreed to start working at Cleary. Why do I think this is not the case.

137 - you're right about Kirkland. I can tell you from inside Kirkland that for reasons unexplainable the firm overvalues the evidence/discovery FRE drones, while generally marginalizing strategic thinkers and practice- area wonks. I could pretty much guess the lead attorney on the matter you're describing. If its not him, it's one of the five guys exactly like him that the firm insists on continually boosting up the ladder. This despite the fact that the only thing worse than a half-a-schmuck lawyer is a half-a-schmuck-but-oblivious one.

155 - Cleary is one of the few firms that has a sizable program for foreign-trained lawyers fresh out of their US law-school LLM program. This "International Lawyers Program" is ALWAYS explicitly for one year (or actually, for about nine months). The International Lawyers start with the first year class of regular associates in the fall, and start leaving just before the summer associate class arrives. Out of the Int'l Lawyers, there are 2 major categories: people that expect to transfer at the end of the year to one of Cleary's foreign offices (e.g. someone from France goes to the Paris office), and people who Cleary is hoping to cultivate a long-term relationship with as a client or referrer of business (this group is largely from Latin America). Every year, a couple of particularly good International Lawyers convince the firm to let them become regular track associates in New York (although it appears to have not happened this year). This is the exception, and the firm does not encourage people to "compete" for these "spots".

That said, there are plenty of foreign-trained lawyers with LLMs working in the New York office, but they are mid-level associates on up. They may have started at a Cleary foreign office and decided to spend a few years in New York.

Also, for what it's worth, there have been very few departures that I'm aware of over the past 6 months, and none of them appeared to be involuntary. I'm sure a few people left after being told they weren't making partner. The easy way to tell if a firm is conducting stealth layoffs is to look at whether 1st - 3rd years are being let go for "performance" reasons. These classes are often too numerous, while mid and senior level lawyers should be in hot demand (at least they are here). I can also say that the firm has seemed quite busy recently.

Also, to add to 157, remember that unlike many other firms, Cleary publishes a daily/weekly e-newsletter that announces any departures, so it wouldn't be very difficult for a half-way intelligent person to discern a trend or otherwise paint an accurate picture of a financially troubled enterprise.

And yes, there is quite a bit of work at Cleary, though some practice areas are hotter now than others, but since the firm is non-departmentalized, it's quite easy to shuffle lawyers around to where they're needed.

Thank you 157 & 158. I was unaware of Cleary's International Lawyers Program. I was thinking more of the typical 20-30% of a V10 corporate practice that is made up of foreign nationals. At my firm the majority are mid and senior associates with a couple of juniors mixed in. Just to clarify is it accurate to say that what was said earlier by 149 applies only to the lawyers in this program and not the foreign national associates in the regular corps of associates? If that's accurate than I'd agree that Cleary hasan't had stealth layoffs. If they are cutting loose the foreign associates than that's a typical V10 stealth layoff phase one.

i received a callback from cleary dc. anyone care to chime in about this office? i know they are tops for antitrust work.

Re: Cleary stealth layoffs

No one is talking about the foreign attorneys who are under one-year contracts. I suspect some Cleary trolls are trying to divert people's attention here.

Cleary has fired a large number of mid-level and senior associates for "performance" reasons. Just because many of them have found jobs does not mean they left voluntarily and were not laid off.

Again, no one is talking about 1-3 years. So stop saying the only sign that a firm has laid off people is 1-3 years are laid off. Mid-level and senior associates are people too.

The Vault rankings are not to be taken seriously. This article says that Weil didn't start laying off staff until May. Wrong. They laid off several staffers January 9th and did stealth layoffs of associates in January as well. The morale is very poor there. I've kept in touch with some of the associates and staffers there and they are miserable.

The current administrator there started in early 2008 and changed the environment of the place completely. He's known as "Hatchet Man" around the firm. He was at Bear Stearns before he started at Weil.

A lot of associates at K&E have been asked to leave and a lot more will be in the near future.

161 is right about Cleary stealth layoffs, with one distinction: years 4 through 6 were usually, although not always, told it was performance. More senior associates were told that there simply was no work for them.

I'm a management consultant myself, but just had dinner tonight with a friend who is a third year at Cleary (we went to law school together). From him, Cleary has had no lay-offs (senior, junior, stealth anything). Poor kid could only complain about having too much work - job security at any level did not seem an issue (we discussed this because job security in consulting for me is considerably less secure). Sigh

165, the truth is, people in a large office don't know about stealth layoffs until it happens to them or to a very close friend. Just saying.

137: what case?