Hal Turner: Did He Threaten Federal Judges?
We’ve written before about Hal Turner, the infamous internet radio host who has been charged with threatening three federal judges. This week brings new information about him, from Wired:
A notorious New Jersey hate blogger charged in June with threatening to kill judges and lawmakers was secretly an FBI “agent provocateur” paid to disseminate right-wing rhetoric, his attorney said Wednesday.Hal Turner, the blogger and radio personality, remains jailed pending charges over his recent online rants, which prosecutors claim amounted to an invitation for someone to kill Connecticut lawmakers and Chicago federal appeals court judges.
But behind the scenes the reformed white supremacist was holding clandestine meetings with FBI agents who taught him how to spew hate “without crossing the line,” according to his lawyer, Michael Orozco.
Unfortunately for him, Turner can’t blame the FBI for the comments that got him in trouble with the law. His claimed involvement with the Bureau ended in 2007, and his alleged threats against the Seventh Circuit judges were made in 2009.
More discussion about Turner’s case — plus comment from one of the threatened jurists, Judge Richard Posner — after the jump.
Sorry — we kinda led you on there, readers. Judge Posner declined to comment on the case, via email:
David — I can’t comment on the Turner case; as a “victim,” I might have to testify.
Actually, even Judge Posner’s “no comment” is interesting. Why did he put “victim” in quotation marks? Are those scare quotes? Does he not see himself as a true victim?
Do you see the judges as victims? Here’s a description of what Turner did and said, from Wired:
According to court documents, (.pdf) after a three-judge panel of the Chicago-based 7th U.S. Circuit of Appeals upheld a Chicago handgun ban, he blogged that the judges should be “killed.”“Let me be the first to say this plainly: These judges deserve to be killed. Their blood will replenish the tree of liberty. A small price to pay to assure freedom for millions,” he wrote.
A day later he posted addresses, photos, maps and other identifying information about Chief Judge Frank Easterbrook and Judges Richard Posner and William Bauer, the authorities said.
Hal Turner’s lawyer argues that these comments were (1) not sufficient to constitute a threat and (2) protected by the First Amendment.
“It’s a protected political statement. He opined,” [attorney Michael] Orozco said. “He said they deserved to be killed. He did not say grab a gun and go out and do what is necessary.”
One federal judge — Judge Joan Lefkow (N.D. Ill.), whose husband and mother were killed in 2005 by a disgruntled litigant — seems to be on the fence about the Hal Turner case. At the recent ABA annual conference, she described the Turner case, then remarked:
“We’re probably all saying to ourselves, ‘Well, is that enough to constitute a threat under the law?’ and I honestly don’t know,” she said just before reading the relevant statute [18 U.S.C. § 115] out loud. “I don’t know if that’s a threat or not.”
So, readers, what do you think? Did Turner — by saying “[t]hese judges deserve to be killed,” and then providing personal information about the judges — threaten federal judges, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 115?
(If you’d like to make a more informed decision before voting, you can read the details of his alleged offense conduct here (PDF).)
Lawyer: FBI Paid Right-Wing Blogger Charged With Threats [Threat Level / Wired]
Scenes from Chicago: The Reality of Threats [National Law Journal (subscription)]
No bail for Web show host who said judges deserve to die [National Law Journal]
(37) Comments
Comments
Rule of lenity, baby!
So much for freedom of speech.
turd
the fed's case here is tighter than dyan cannon's face. just kidding dyan, you know i love ya! i also like to use you're lakers tickets from time to time.
yours,
nick nolte
Bloggers deserve to be killed.
bloggers deserve to be killed.
Saying they deserved to be killed is one thing. Posting pictures of them, maps to their homes, etc., is quite another.
Elie, I'm not trying to hint or anything, but this story may be interesting to you (and your future, if Lat's increased posting is any indication): http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_jayson_blair
You have a lot in common with him...
Mystal is fat.
Mystal sweats when he types.
Mystal is one big gland of sweat and crisco.
He is guilty of being a right wing nut who is about as far from being an advocate for "freedom" as you could possibly get.....
8 - Lat has been posting a lot, hasn't he?
That is not a threat. It's not specific enough.
It's not like "I am going to kill you, Judge X." That would be a threat. This is just "Judge X should die" (which is true, biologically speaking).
In light of (1) First Amendment concerns and (2) rule of lenity, "threat" should be construed narrowly.
Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?
Hypocrisy, thy name is ATL.
14 - Huh?
Not a threat.
But Turner is still a whack job.
So, hypothetically speaking, if someone were to opine anonymously on an online legal tabloid that "John Yoo should be shot with a ball of his own shit" in an article that contains a picture of John Yoo and a statement that he works at Berkely Law School, would that constitute an unlawful threat?
http://abovethelaw.com/2009/08/morning_docket_081809.php?show=comments#comments
13 - nice reference.
17 - You made me LOL with that link.
I'm with 7. It wouldn't be a threat by itself, but once he posted all the identifying information, it was clearly (and convincingly) one.
Agree with 7. The posting of maps combined with the statement that *these* people should be killed seems pretty damn specific to me.
Not a threat, sorry. It's a white supremacist who's done threats before, so the feds cracked down. Had this been anyone else, no one would be blinking.
It's not a threat, but it sure as hell is solicitation. Kind of like inviting people to ...
Please leave the room if you think this will affect you.
*BLAM*
12- it is a specific threat when he identified each judge and their locations. See 7, 20 and 21.
Reminds me of the abortion doctors getting killed based on info posted to websites.
PE = Hal Turner
24, does it remind you of the websites that posted the names and addresses of anti-gay-marriage Californians who supported Proposition 8?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/30/BAJC15JOOR.DTL
Hey 13 -- nice work!
The linked pdf said he posted the work addresses, not home addresses. I'm having trouble with this, because my initial reaction is to say this isn't a threat because work addresses are widely available and because the federal court is a heavily secured place. But that really points to how threatening or dangerous his comments are as opposed to whether they constitute a threat. Bottom line, its probably a threat, not terribly threatening or dangerous, but I guess that doesn't matter.
Hey 13 -- nice work!
The linked pdf said he posted the work addresses, not home addresses. I'm having trouble with this, because my initial reaction is to say this isn't a threat because work addresses are widely available and because the federal court is a heavily secured place. But that really points to how threatening or dangerous his comments are as opposed to whether they constitute a threat. Bottom line, its probably a threat, not terribly threatening or dangerous, but I guess that doesn't matter.
Pudgy bastard, isn't he?
My understanding is that he indicated that a blog post containing the judges' home addresses, complete with maps, would soon be forthcoming and that it was at that point that he was arrested.
I'd describe it more as solicitation or specific encouragement of murder (enough that if someone had done something, he should be on the hook as an accessory) than a "threat", but he definitely had the required intent, and this form of threat has just the same effect as a direct threat. That's enough for me. The point of the statute is to prevent people from trying to intimidate judges with physical harm, which is exactly what he was trying to do.
So, the FBI paid Turner for his bullshit? This is what our federal taxes are funding?
I have just two questions:
1. What purpose did the FBI have in mind for Turner when they started paying him?
2. How many other right-wing blowhards are also getting government money?
As long as you idiot lawyers put people in cages for twenty years for nothing, you may expect people to try to kill you.
I think Hal Turner should be taken out, quietly. Anyone have his address? There are many ways to do it without leaving traces...
He appears to be a desering sociopath. Also.
I think Hal Turner should be taken out, quietly. Anyone have his address? There are many ways to do it without leaving traces...
He appears to be a deserving sociopath. Also.
Hal Turner's current address is the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Chicago. His federal inmate number is 30057-050.
34/35. Death threats are still unlawful so I suggest that you refrain from your hateful speech. I have little doubt that Lat would give up your IP address in less time it took for your little brain to think that up.