First!

Any list that doesn't include Wilmer Hale in the top ten is per se illegitimate.

How on Job’s Green Earth does S&C drop a slot with Subprime Rodge slaying all? Skadden Schmadden. Game set match.

WhiTTTe & Case only fell two places?! they should've fallen more

buh-bye LaTTTham

TOP 10!

i'm surprised MinTTTz managed to make the cut

Skadden Secure, bitches!

Suck on my prestige.

Once again, Vault shows how worthless it is. These rankings, especially Weil and Skadden, reflect the information that was available last fall/winter (Skadden's higher bonus and Weil's bankruptcy work) and much has changed since then.

In the meantime Weil and Skadden have both deferred their entire summer classes and on top of that Weil no-offered up to 9 people this summer (per ATL). What a joke.

3 - WilmerHale belongs in the top 10 like Turkey belongs in the EU.

Latham got lathamed.

YES! YES! YES! FINALLY SHOW ME THE PRESTIGE!!!

NEGLECTING MY FAMILY, FRIENDS, SOUL AND PERSONAL LIFE FINALLY PAID OFF!!! SUCK ON THIS PRESTIGE HONEY, SEE YOU IN 15 YEARS WHEN THE KIDS ARE GROWN UP AND YOU'VE CONTEMPLATED DIVORCE 6 TIMES!!! WAY TO LIVE THE AMERICAN DREAM BABY!!! DON'T YOU LOVE ALL THIS CASH AND PRESTIGE!?

First to say Shearman and STTTerling and that the VaulTTT website appears to be down.

huge carnage last year, and the only real movement is quinn up, latham down, and a couple 1-3 place swings? i wonder what "prestige" even means to vault.

cov's Transportation Law practice must have catapulted it above williams & connolly.

vault = worthless.

rankings followers = bunch of dumbass sheep

Can someone paste in the comments the full description of Latham? Any interesting comments?

19th!

- Jones Day

Layoffs & WaTTTkins

- V17 Frat Stud

My prestige is bigger than your prestige.

the bomb fell on everyone. Everyone got fucked. If everyone's fucked, why would that truth drastically reorder the rankings?

Skadden is a dump. Their offices are not even that impressive.

Great, now the law students will start freaking out, rooting for their favorite law firm like it's their favorite baseball team.

This is all just an elaborate tribute to Newton's First Law.

if anything, vault is becoming too DC centric. Covington and Wilmer don't belong anywhere in the top 20.

The Lawyer, a UK magazine, had a report last year that fleshed out litigation dept RPL, PPP, etc. "Top 50 Transatlantic Firms by Litigation Turnover"

Covington RPL Lit = 416mm.

Even the crappiest firms kill it. For some perspective:

Cravath RPL Lit: 1690 mm

Holland & Knight RPL Lit: 527 mm

Greenburg RPL Lit: 700 mm.

So Greenburg has almost DOUBLE Cov's Lit RPL, yet Cov is somehow ranked in the top 10???

If Cadwalader is not immediately moved up to 12th or better I will call Bob Link and authorize him to release the hounds in the general vicinity of this Brian Dalton.

Where is Wilson Elser?

Katten must have slid down the list after dishing about too many pussy passes to TTT females in their NYC office.

It took me a while, but I finally realized it: ATL and the people that follow it make me wish I never became a lawyer.

How the fuck do they come up with these rankings? Outside of the obvious few big movers (Weil/QE etc.) it seems totally arbitrary.

29 = utterly devoid of prestige

- V17 Frat Stud

Mystal is as big as a Vault.

Dob Bole

Where’s Wildman Harrold??!!

damn page won't even load

QUINN RISES

CADAWALADER FALLS

WLRK REMAINS

28 - Wilson Elser??

You must be kidding.

Kirkland & Ellis is so prestigious they haven't even told their summers if they have offers yet.

30 -

"As ever, all Vault law firm rankings (overall prestige, departmental, regional, diversity and quality of life) are purely a function of associate votes. No editorial input or judgment affects the results. I’m happy to answer any all questions about these rankings—please ask in the comments."

- not Vault troll

Cadwalader’s check didn’t clear

Say what you say, but rankings are important to us all. I've followed the rankings all along working my way up. I started interviewing around the firms ranked in the 60s as a 2L, then summered at a firm in the 30s and the took a 3L offer at a firm ranked in the top 20.

Worked for me.

Steptoe remains a TTT with fag partners and fat slutty recuiters.

I had a hearty chuckle after reading the rankings. Almost as laughable as the law school rankings. While I can confirm the inclusion of some peer firms in the top spots, there are too many non-peer firms in the top 20 list. I am afraid someone has gone overboard with the lipstick on the pig.

26 -- The numbers are that way because Covington doubles the pro bono hours of any major new york firm and their attorneys work less than 2/3 of the overall hours. Even completely disregarding their selectivity, atmosphere, and exit opportunities -- all of which dwarf any V10 save perhaps wachtell -- the fact is that caring about things greater than money and refusing to be a biglaw slave factory is prestigious.

Rankings cause signficant impact on feable young minds. Hence the reason why most 2 and 3Ls make life determinations based on this list of shame.

Why leave Latham anywhere near a respectable position? Sorta pointless.

I'm starting law school this year and was wondering why everyone seems to hate Latham & Watkins. I thought they had a very good reputation.

Vault site not loading for anyone else?????????? TTT tech dept over there.

Delightful occurrence last night at Rick's. A fellow patron tossed a satchel of money in the air for no apparent reason. I collected $17.

The young man who operates my local newsstand smells like he is from New Jersey.

http://twitter.com/PartnerEmeritus

At WLRK/Skadden/DPW/S&C/CSM the deals are all pretty huge. Massive. I can't talk about them, you know, but its kind of cool to read about your deals in the Times. But what's more important is that the people are really cool to work. They are totally down to earth. And really smart. It's true what they say. And there's like a a giant fish tank in the cafeteria, and the catering staff wear bow ties. Can you believe it? And the deserts are awesome. There is a ton of work---but I'm getting great experience (I solo drafted a 10b-5 opinion last week!) . It's pretty brutal but when I get out of here the experience and the name are going to make it pretty easy for me to go in house or transition to a real partner opportunity at a really good firm.

It really is ridiculous that people seeing this will think Weil is (relatively) better this year than last. Haven't they had layoffs in addition to deferrals since the votes went in? Skadden at 3 is almost even more ridiculous. At the top 3 law schools, no one has ever considered Skadden to be "prestigious." Their reputation while I was at HLS was that they were a back-up at best since they are huge and will hire absolutely anyone (at HYS) who's willing to go be a sweatshop worker (everyone I knew who went there was from the bottom of my class).

My shrink and my estranged family are really going to understand me better when I print this list and show them the prestige with which I've been involved.

R.I.P. VaulTTT web site - gang raped to death by a bunch of law firm ranking prestige whores...

PaulHastings at 32 -- that's prestige I can believe in!

HAHAHAHA

Bob Dell and Dave Gordon you dumbfucks. Instead of being market leaders in screwing associates (salary freezes, layoffs) you should have waited and seen that everyone was going to defer. Cravath mandatorily deferred a whole class and they haven't been heard.

You rat bastards

In addition, it is harder to get a job in one of DC's top firms (there are 5 total) than in most of NYC's top firms, save for perhaps Wachtell and Cravath. Heck, it is harder to get a biglaw job in DC than it is in NYC period. Associates, as a rule, stay longer; there are less spaces to begin with; and one can actually buy a house there, making it more attractive for midlevels and seniors.

I love NYC and all that it has to offer (culture, food, art, excitement). There is little argument that it is the best big city in the country. But there is also little argument that the "prestige" jobs in DC are harder to land.

if someone actually gets access the the vault site, post the rankings.

Dear Latham:

Top 10 firms don't

1) layoff half the first year class in NY only 4 months after they start (that was really dirty)
2) layoff 45% of associates in NY
3) layoff a third of the first year class in LA only 4 months after they start (that was dirty as hell)
4) layoff about 400-500 associates after promising "there will be no layoffs."

You probably won't even be a top 20 firm next year.

43 -- oh, so i get it now. Cov COULD make more money and charge premium prices if they wanted to, but they CHOOSE not to. Maybe GM should use that excuse too!

what, do they work less than holland & knight? h&k is kicking cov's butt in lit rpl!

As a non-lawyer but someone who enjoys the site immensely and is in a similar professional track (school and career-wise), I have a question. Why does there seem to be this entitlement attitude when it comes to offers, layoffs, etc. When I compare to Wall St, both have been similarly decimated with layoffs, bankruptcy, and loss of security, etc. However, law students still seem to feel their internships should still equate to 100% or close job offers from firms that clearly cant support that rate of growth, and firms that lay off, either "stealthily" or publicly are lambasted as terrible and lacking prestige. Wall Street firms, which I view as comparable to many law firms, rarely if ever hire 100% or even 60% of their interns and layoffs are simply a course of business, whether its performance or due to business cycles. I thought as intelligent professionals everyone, Wall Streeter's or lawyers would understand and accept that's the way the system works, and while its far from perfect, we all accept the risks going in. Yet from what i read/see hear, once you have an internship, your're entitled to a smooth and easy path, regardless of the events that transpire. Someone please enlighten me, thanks!

Hey Bob Dell, Dave Gordon you dumbshits. Look at Cravath on the new raknings. Look at Skadden. Look at STB. All corp heavy, none with significant drops. You know why? Because they didn't mass Latham their associates, particularly first year.

Cravath deferred a whole class and they didn't fall.

You dumbshits would have been better off deferring people than laying off en masse. Really, did you think laying off half a first year class would go unnoticed? Did you think you could cut nearly half of Latham NY and no one would care? I hope both of your stupid asses get fired.

The vault rankings are so gay

48: PE, I find your tweets highly offensive. I don't know if you are the one reposting them here, but please cease at once.

49: Are you joking (I think you are ... I hope you are ...)? Drafting a 10b-5 opinion requires changing a few names and takes about 30 minutes. And you can talk about your deals as soon as they're public (i.e., as soon as you read about them in the Times).

But I'm just a disenchanted corporate associate--plenty of deals in the WSJ, but it's still boring, fairly mindless work that could be best done by drones who are really good at checking boxes, but who haven't had a creative thought in their lives. Wow, I think I really hate my job ... I can do better than this.

man, the vault page has been totally lathamed like the rising 2L know as PE's career prospects.

58-- Sorry your shitty school/grades/lack of law review shut you out of DC.

63 -- can you elaborate? do you think you'd like litigation instead of corporate?

I'd rather slit my wrists than work for any of these firms--it's not the jerkish work environment that bothers me so much as the low pay. High pay for most jobs--low pay as compared to what lawyers with initiative and clients make.

63 - ever heard of the word "irony"?

How does a firm that, this year alone, counseled Pfizer, Lyondell, Microsoft, CVC Capital, and Treasury on high-profile issues fall to #60? I smell some bitter former associates.

63-I think that the inclusion of numerous firm names in the first sentence would indicate that 49 does not in fact work at more than half of the Vault top ten but rather is writing a parody of the associate comments on the Vault site.

-Not 49

No Thelen? No Brown Raysman?

Are Wachtell associates even aware that they always take this thing? Or are they all prestige whores a la Lat?

Katten and CWT in NYC dished out alot of pussy passes to TTT female grads.

Vault MysTTTal their chances to make this right and recognize that Cadwalader was simply the first to lay off en masse. Since the rankings remain and Cad is still at 62, I am calling Bob. Let it be uttered by no man that ample warning was not rendered.

59 is totally right. All the BigLaw associates that are wasting time on this site (that they could be spending with wives or children or actually doing the work they're billing for) think that prestige is somehow related to providing job security to associates. Why on earth would anyone equate a firm's prestige with your job security?

You are a narcissistic bunch of shitheads.

59 - People go into biglaw expecting a secure way to make a decent amount of money. People go into banking or start a company looking for a risky way to make assloads of F you money. It has to do with expectations, which are being turned upsidedown for BigLawyers. WallStreeters signed up for the risk.

If I set the stove to high heat while reducing the heavy cream in my Hollandaise sauce, do I risk lathaming the entire mixture?

Can someone post the whole list? I can't get on the website

Where is Kaye Scholer on this list?

Prestige points!!!! w00000000000000t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am cutting outta work early today to hit the Ferrari dealership now.

It's a sliding scale, right? With the #1 firm getting a million prestige points, and each firm below it getting 10,000 less prestige points for each place they drop. Anybody know what the going rate is for a new Ferrari Enzo? Is it 500k prestige points? Should I check Edmunds.com?

Thelen has gone on to the Great Vault Rankings in the Sky, where it chases rabbits on a big farm all day long...

75 - more ketchup on those fries. Please.

Secure V5

Am I the only one who noticed that Dewey is ranked substantially lower than either of its two former halves were ranked? Hilarious!

Covington is accurately ranked. It's one of the most selective firms and their regulatory practices are among the best around. They probably have more political bigwigs than any other office in DC.

72 - Lat is fat and gay so yes.

78 - your use of the verb "lathamed" is incorrect, unless you include first year associates with the butter and egg yolks.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lathamed

58, do you seriously not get that "prestige" is not equivalent to "working the most and making the most money" ("making the most money" here meaning "making the most money for the firm's partners while still collecting exactly the same money as you would at other firms still on the 160 scale").** If it's about how much money the partners make off your labor, no law firm job is as prestigious as the grunt job you can get at a fund or an i-bank as a 20 year-old with a bachelor's degree.

**Note that your understanding of "prestige" amounts to "lower hourly wage/greater serfdom = greater prestige."

That said, these rankings are ridiculous and worthless in any case. Generating ratings by allowing every associate whose only experience whatsoever with 95% of the firms s/he's asked about is what s/he heard in law school or read in the previous year's Vault rankings pretty much guarantees there will be very little reliability or movement.

29- Ditto. The obsession over the Vault Rankings epitomizes what I hate about the legal profession. It is sad how people obsess over their firm's rank. I left biglaw as soon as my student loans were fully paid and I suggest that you all do the same. My pay check is slightly less but my life is significantly better.

PE's firm, Sullivan & Cromwell, dropped a slot. Maybe less time at Rick's and you'll move back up.

Dear Bob Dell, Dave Gordon, and the rest of Latham's management,

Do you see now why the other corporate heavy top ten firms deferred and absorbed the hit instead of doing MASSIVE LAYOFFS [you ESPECIALLY FUCKED FIRST YEARS]? You don't get to layoff all those first years, juniors, and nearly half of Latham NY and stay a top 10.

Like the careers of the first years you mercilessly lathamed, it's all downhill from here for you.

84 - I am fat and gay and not Lat and you are an idiot.

78 = FAIL! There is no cream (heavy or otherwise) in hollandaise sauce.

82 - I called you a narcissistic shithead already. No need to demonstrate it so clearly.

- 75

*Places Dave Gordon's stuff in a box, orders a car, has security escort Dave out to car*

This is where Bob Dell has a talk with Dave Gordon and tells him he's not going to be laid off, then lays him off two months later.

90 = Fat and gay.

There, I said it.

All your firms are belong to Weil!

Let me pose this question again: How does a firm that, this year alone, counseled Pfizer, Lyondell, Microsoft, CVC Capital, and Treasury on high-profile issues fall to #60? (The firm in question is Cadwalader, for those who still can't access the list). I mean, I know they've hit some rough spots, but do they really deserve to be ranked below, say, Dechert???

Congratulations!

Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have hever appened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.

During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.

You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).

Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.

You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.

You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)

A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.

About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.

Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.

Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the XOXO board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.

Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the XOXO crowd will see you.

And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.

You are all idiots.

HOGAN SECURE

VaulTTT got the bandwidth see, VaulTTT get the honeys G. Drivin in my car, livin like a star, ice on my fingers and my toes and I'm a Taurus. Cause we are the Aqua Teens, make the homeys say ho and the girlies wanna scream.

WHO is CHUKWUMBO?

Latham's behavior was egregious. They laid off half the first years, half the second years, and a third of the third years at Latham NY. In total, about 45% of associates at that office have been Lathamed off.

Not only that, but in what appears to be a shameless, blatant act of nepotism Latham NY laid off every first and second year who had ever failed the bar exam (a pool of 5 people, 4 first years) except for the son of a partner. People who failed the bar were laid off throughout all the offices in the united states, but somehow, this guy managed to survive.

They also laid off a third of the first years in LA, and 25% in DC.

Top 10 firms don't do this. Sorry Latham, no more top 10 for you. You'll probably fall farther next year. If you want to improve you should start treating your associates like human beings, starting with the people you've already laid off (yes, i know it's crazy, but you could try helping them).

Can someone please post the top firms to work for and top IP firms lists? kthxbai.

For all those bitching about Latham's ranking -- the associate surveys were due before they made the huge cuts. The week before, as I recall.

104, not true. I filled out my associate survey well after the Lathamization.

59 -
isn't it a bit cheeky of you to say that lawyers feel too entitled compared to bankers when Goldman sets aside $700k in AVERAGE compensation for THIS year?

Tthe bargain that one used to accept as gospel truth was that one chose higher job security and pay stability of biglaw over higher pay on wall street. There is, and always should be, churn and attrition in biglaw - the model relies on that. But hire en-masse one year and fire en-masse the next has not been part of deal, until now. People are pissed because their expectations have not matched reality. The expectations may have been delusional, but not more so than the rest of the country.

Let's say you are an ex-Cadwalader 4/5-year corporate finance lawyer. Wouldn't you be pissed at the fact that you could have pulled $500k to a million easy during 2007 and almost as much in 2008, rather than less than $200k that you got at Cadwalader - and still end up unemployed? Yes you would.

Your argument would've looked a lot better if you bashed lawyers and bankers together.

86 -- i agree with you. and would respect Cov if they worked 2/3 of cravath and still had respectable RPL. But they work 2/3 of cravath and have 1/4 of cravath's RPL! again, they're almost 50% of freakin holland & knight! h&k doesn't exactly work their butts off. by your logic, h&k should be #8 on vault!

and having politically connected people at the firm means crap -- who cares if they're not generating money!

and no, cov associates don't make as much as other firms. 1st and 2nd year bonuses are like 10k or less. w&c associates make 180k, wilmer gives 15-20k bonuses, etc.

97, see 86.

Says a lot about our profession... worrying about firm rankings (which btw are entirely arbitrary and aren't very helpful to law students & clients) when 10-15% of some of the brightest young attorneys are either unemployed or doing crap contract work to survive. Nice...

Let's celebrate Latham's fall outside the Lipstick building. Bring a rat.

What does fat and gay have to do with anything, huh? HUH?

109--

The only people worried about this shit are the law students that post here. Look at how few comments were posted around the time the bar exam was administered. It's just convincing evidence that about 10% of the people here actually practice.

Nobody gives a flying shit about this stuff in reality except "career law firm associates" in New York City.

102: further. You're fired.

98=Roxana

111=Roxana

Elie -- In with 98, out with Roxana.

98, I almost hyperventilated reading that post. Ugh.

-Incoming V5 associate

59, it's really not that difficult. There is a very good reason for it, and it makes sense. Jesus.

Um, if you have a 3 to 1 associate to partner ratio and PPP of $2 million you have AVERAGE attorney compensation of $500,000. This would be the norm for the top 20 PPP firms. My point is who the F-ck cares about average compensation. Compare apples to apples or STFU.

That hypothetical 4/5 year corp attorney from Cadwalader would have been fired right after his arrival at the I-bank in early 2008 (LIFO) and would have made nothing. Had they remained at Cadwalader they would've made more than 200K (albeit not much more).

97 - you forgot to mention making offers to all of the firm's summers from last year and starting them in october of 2009, rather than january or ?? 2010. that should count for something.

So what if Weil deferred it's associates. Is it really that terrible to get what amounts to $90K to do something else for a year and four months and not be terrified that you are just clogging the system by starting right away? No, it is not.

98, its all true. But telling law students or juniors to listen to that is like telling salmon that if they swim upstream bears will eat them.

And you forgot to add than when you do turn up for your lightly-regarded-firm lateral interview, they won't give a sh*t that you know how to "draft" a deal opinion or a secretary's certificate---even though the deal you copy-pasted for was absolutely mega. That will be the next stage of shock and despair.

Where is Morrision Mahoney???

$75k for 2200 billables.

"Biglaw billables at Shitlaw pay."

Where is Barkan Neff Handelman Meizlish? This list is a travesty. Lolz.

91, I meant Mousseline sauce. But you knew that already.

I feel like a rape victim whose attacker has been brought to justice.

-Laid of Latham First Year

So does V&E Houston get a separate ranking or are they coupled in with the rest of the offices?

Talk about making itself irrelevant. Vault waits until August 18th (by far the latest release date) to unveil it's rankings while OCIs and job fairs are already in full swing. Way to be completely out of touch with reality, Vault.

106/119: do those figures include staff?

98 FTW

from: robert.link@cwt.com
to: [redacted]@vault.com
date: Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:01 AM
subject : Correction Needed

Dear [redacted],

This is Bob Link. Note that everything contained herein is delivered as a confidential communication.

A colleague has alerted me to the fact that Vault’s editorial board has decided to drop CWT nearly 40 slots in its 2010 Prestige Rankings. While I acknowledge – as I have many times in the past – that the firm suffered an undue level of negative publicity as a result of necessary reductions in workforce over the last 18 months, it strikes me as wholly irresponsible and, frankly, morally dubious to continue to penalize the firm a full year after its last round of substantial reductions. If anything, CWT’s actions should be viewed in hindsight as innovative—prescient, even. While nobody in firm leadership—myself most of all—enjoyed amicably parting ways with every single trusted and beloved colleague, we made the decisions to preserve the fiscal health of the firm after comprehensive review processes that resulted in the loss of many billable hours for a number of senior partners. Furthermore, the actions of many of our competitors over the past year-plus provide a new perspective on CWT’s cuts: THEY WERE CUTTING EDGE. CADWALADER IS CUTTING EDGE. AND WE WILL REMAIN CUTTING EDGE, WHETHER OR NOT VAULT HAS THE INTELLIGENCE TO APPRECIATE THAT.

I look forward to your response.

Bob

Second 130.

Locke Lord = King of the xoxoxo crowd.

Houston King

129 --- No. And here's one reason why: one does not (or at least should not) go through college, then grad school, hoping to one day land that cushy job at a large law firm AS A F* PARALEGAL or SECRETARY! There are a lot of very nice secretaries and parals but (if they're smart and able) they chose those jobs because they didn't want the stress and school debt associated with a real career.

Pls do not put lawyers, bankers, in the same sentence with secretaries and admin assistants. Thank you.

129 - did you just ask if the average comp per attorney includes staff?

FAIL.

134 - Would you permit me to pound you in the ass if I take you out to lunch? Say 1:30 at Dorsia?

I am fat and I am gay and I am fine with both of those things! Just be who you are, people!!!!

136 -- Again, no. But if you're a hot secretary or paralegal and not yet over the hill (i.e., below 30), I'll pound you in the ass, and if you scream loud enough, treat you to lunch. How's that?
- 134

Perhaps Elie is afraid of being filmed because that will capture his soul?

@136 - There is no such restaurant as Dorsia, dickhead. Try again.

Is Mystal the fat gay one?

140 - its from American Psycho man, chillax

134 - no, I meant if Goldman's figure included staff. I wouldn't be surprised if it did, so comparing average comp. per atty to average comp. for a GS employee would be retarded.

I have a reservation at Dorsia right now.

-Christian Bale

I am fat and gay and I can get a table at Dorsia with a click of my heels.

- not Elie

THE NEW BERNIE MADOFF LINK IS EMBARRASSING. what is this, TMZ for Law? Perez Hilton is now running the site? You guys make me sick.

98 is old, recycled XOXO material describing things that would _never_ happen at HK Miami.

50-

Your statements re Skadden are not novel; this same post is made each year. The survey is supp
Survey is purported to measure the firm's prestige--presumably a proxy for the quality of its work and reputation generally, of which selectivity of incoming first years (at Harvard or anywhere else) is but one (small) factor. In sum, it isn't the Vault survey of where it is hardest for a Yale law student to get a job.

I have to return some video tapes.

Who gives a fuck about the XoXo board. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS GETTING PAID AND LAID.

vault rankings stupid

what rank is clifford chance?

what is clifford chance?

10 is right. When you have associates voting on this stuff 9+ months ago, you end up with rankings that don't reflect anything close to the current reality.

Weil has conducted staff and attorney layoffs, deferred its incoming and summer classes beyond the deferrals of "peer" firms, and has even closed an office, but it rose in the rankings because everyone was so excited about all the bankruptcy work it was going to be doing.

152 - 98.

baby animal to EIC

wait is that Bob Link email real? no way he's that dumb. Even him.

157: Hard to tell. That's Link's correct addrs but it sounds too over=the-top, even for him.

Can someone post the list? The fucking Vault web site is down.

59 here....good comments for the most part. I didnt intend to bash lawyers, simply understand the mindset. Your point is, and it seems fairly valid, less reward and less risk than Wall Street, and the altering of that implicit, it not explicit, deal is what's causing the uproar. That's totally fair and understandable, I guess its the point of less risk versus no risk that confused me. Clearly the past 2 years have been cataclysmic for nearly all career paths, and given that change that we're all aware of, holding on to "yesterday's" promises of a well defined path, 100% offer rates, and little/no layoffs among new employees, seems a little more like wishful thinking than that of adapting to the new, albeit painful environment. 106's point about GS bonuses is valid, of course, the only one who enjoy those are those still there, the one's laid off don't benefit, to the betterment of those remaining. Exactly like BigLaw is it not, fire some and the rest are better off. Perhaps not to the tune of 700k/per, but I guess my original point was, the ones not there anymore, while certainly upset, aren't wondering why or saying GS sucks because they didn't keep me. But again, perhaps BigLaw didnt sign up for the risk, but like anyone else, the risk is everywhere, specially now whether you seek it out or not. And for the record, I myself left/was let go from a major Wall St firm 2 years ago, and while it was difficult, sure enough, I've now found myself at a better Wall St firm, happier, and making more than before. I hope all of you who are displaced find yourself in similar if not better positions going forward. Keep up the good work!

this was made when a few firms looked awful and a few firms looked great. things have changed since then, and things will change over the next 12 months as the details on offer rates and summer programs come out.

i predict weil and skadden go down next year, latham probably stays where it's at permanently

question from a non-lawyer: Does the fact that Link immediately stated that that email was "confidential" make it illegal to disseminate the thing?
Thanks.

What happened to Dreier?

98 post of the year. I'm hard. AND David Lat???

123 - Maybe it's because the firm is filled with Suffolk and New England grads.

Latham is an overrated TTT in decline.

Gibson Dunn to 14.

Paul Weiss doesn't move up? These rankings are horse shit

Katten NYC Corporate Dept is #1 in the prestige laden

"Pussy Pass Rankings -2009"

Is Ballard Spahr on the list? Were they ever a peer firm?

Too bad we have to wait for next year's rankings to (inaccurately, though less so) describe this year's legal environment. New surveys go out in what, two or three months? Come on Vault, work on your turn around time.

Screw Vault.

If you are interviewing for NYC this fall these are the firms you want:

S&C
DPW
Cleary
Debevoise
PW

All others are a step below in this economy.

MoFo makes a huge jump on the A-List, but falls 4 spots on Vault? Idiotic, but the A-List is a better indicator of quality firms anyway.

172 -- blatant s&c trolling. check out the latest m&a league tables for counsel to principals -- s&c TANKED. they gotta be hurting.

98 = Post of the Year!
-not 98

Can somebody please tell me Jenner & Block's new ranking? I heard they might have shot up more spots than any other firm.

143: yes, Goldman numbers include staff. They set aside 11.3 billion for compensation for Q1 and Q2. That's 22.6 billion for the year. Enough for roughly 700k for all 30,000+ of their employees. And mind you, it's not just secretaries who are making comparatively nothing. Analysts do not make all that much either - and there are a lot of them. Which just makes the figures for i-bankers, even at the most junior level, that much more ludicrous. Law firms simply do not compare.

Weil is overrated. Sure it may have the biggest deal of the year, but when the economy heats up again, it will be overshadowed again by STB and Cleary, who have much better corporate practices overall.

176, Jenner is mid-40s.

What is Ropes & Gray's ranking this year as compared to last? Can't get on the sight...

180 here - Before you all go crazy, I meant "site"

180,

Ropes is 24th...

180/181,

Thank heavens you made that correction, or I might have gone crazy.

Ropes moved up to 24 this year. (They were at 27 last year.)

Can someone post all 100 here. Or tell me how to access the full list? Thanks

What are the regional rankings? Someone please post

Will Latham get any of the top students in LA now?

I can only find 1 - 25 . How do you get the rest?

178 -- you hope. Weil is recruiting top partners and is in position to pay them bank now. They will emerge stronger while other firms emerge weaker. The deal market may come roaring back to match the way it was in 06/07 (basically no one thinks so, but we can hope) or it may be years and years of mostly mid-market deals and restructurings. If your firm relies on $1billion or larger deals you'll be in hibernation mode until at least 2011. Weil's very diversified, conservative approach looks good in down cycles and less good during boom times. For some, a firm that has the same PPP in boom and bust markets is preferable to one that announces that it'll be back on top as soon as the next bubble develops.

In a couple short weeks, a new wave of hapless lemmings will crack open the shrinkwrap on those heinously overpriced casebooks, boot up their laptops for some heated note-taking, and commence their voyage down the road of America’s most overrated, miserable, and saturated industry: the practice of law. A pompous, overpaid professor will saunter in and begin blathering and bullying them about some obscure case, reveling in her power like a college calculus student picking on the 4th grade arithmetic class. So begins another bumper crop in this endless harvest of shame.

Remember those days? The boundless excitement at joining an “elite” profession, envisioning oneself captivating jurors with soaring oratory and seating “surprise’ witnesses like Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird? Or maybe flexing those legal muscles as a powerful DA a la Jack McCoy, cruising around crime scenes and picking up spent shell casings with a pencil tip? Sending rapists and murdering scum up the river and then meeting “the boys” for a well-earned victory beer before firing up the Ferrari to head home?

Sadly, for most incoming One L’s that isn’t how this dreadful mistake will play out, despite propaganda to the contrary in those glossy admissions brochures. Instead, most will cold-send bales of resumes into a dead chasm of silence, eventually scrounging for document review temp-work at rates lower than a truck driver, bricklayer, or garbage man earns. Or there’s the “networking” farce, where you print reams of resumes on that creamy, ivory cotton-weave Staples resume paper and shove them in the face of every gray-haired loser at an alumni cocktail reception. I attended one of these once, and the first older-looking guy on the scene was gang-rushed and sent to the hospital as a horde of recent grads bum-rushed him with an avalanche of cover letters! I believe he was pronounced dead shortly thereafter, having choked on a peel-and-eat shrimp during the melee. I later learned he wasn’t even a lawyer, but instead a catering director merely there to inspect the buffet. Such are the risks one runs when overseeing events for desperate law school grads. Just posting a craigslist ad for an entry-level lawyer is like strolling into Ethiopia with a box of Dunkin’ Dounuts and saying: “Hey, anyone here got the munchies?”

In NYC as I write, the rates for most temp projects are $28 an hour straight time for admitted attorneys, with no health benefits, no paid leave, and zero opportunity for advancement. Packed elbow to elbow in stifling broom closets and windowless backrooms, these “losers” (many of whom are laid-off graduates of so-called “elite” schools) stare into the alkaline glow of their monitors and click thru reams of the dullest, driest, most pointless shitpaper mankind has ever produced. Many arrive home at night with their eyes weeping blood. The fun quickly wears off after the twelfth hour of scanning a Global Broker-Dealer Bilateral Sub-Agreement to see if Paragraph 14(b)9vii contains the word “if” as opposed to “shall.” Picking fly shit out of black pepper would be a more intellectually stimulating (and probably better paying) job.

Juvenile and petty rules, often arbitrarily applied, dominate these projects. Internet access is strictly forbidden, with most case managers disabling the web browsers. Cell phone use and textingare limited to emergencies only. Of late, even talking to one’s neighbor is taboo, since clients are getting more cost-conscious and every second of billable time is haggled over and hard fought. The desks are littered with rotting Chinese take-out containers, festering cups of day old instant coffee, Ramen noodle styrofoams, and the other sundry cuisines of the dirt-poor.

Most law grads are little more than over-leveraged liberal arts losers, who compounded the mistake of a worthless bachelor’s degree withan equally worthless (and much more expensive) JD. Often paying half (or more) of their after-tax income in student loans, I’ve witnessed the utter desperation and hopelessness that many are suffering: single moms stealing milk from the coffee fridge to take home for their children, working 80 to 90 hours a week when bone-tired to make the rent on a shithole studio in Queens, enduring endless degradation and abuse by the sociopathic, greed-fueled scum who operate these modern day sweatshops, and the occasional outburst of pent-up anger that ends in security escorting one off the property. The project’s over- for you! Quickly replaced, there is an endless supply of desperately indebted losers just dying to take these miserable jobs, since no alternatives exist.

Hell, even craigslist ads for paralegals and secretaries are now expressly stating “No JD’s need apply.” Gee whiz, Wally, why would a lawyer apply for a paralegal job? Here’s a hint: how many nurse or paramedic ads do you see that state “no licensed physicians please?” How many stewardess jobs warn “no pilots need apply?” The AMA and other legitimate professions are experts on the iron laws of supply and demand, and regulate their professions accordingly.

Bad as they are, these temp jobs (even with the recent plunge in rates and overtime) still pay far better than small ambulance-chaser firms, many of whom have cut salaries into the low 30s (annually) in this gruesome bear market. The supply of lawyers outstrips the number of available jobs by an absurd ratio, and this problem continues unabated since the ABA will accredit anyone who opens up a lawschool in the spare bay of his garage. Did you hear about Philly’s new “Drexel School of Law?” What the hell is a “Drexel,” anyway? Wasn’t he the younger brother of Screech on Saved by the Bell? And then there’s the infamous Thomas M. Cooley Law School in Michigan, who received accreditation for having more “O’s” in their name than any existing law school. But I digress.

At Paul Weiss, for example, they crammed 120 people into a basement room that NYC fire code rated for 80. This was in 2005. Like steerage passengers on the Titanic, we labored in the bowels of the building, right alongside the boilers and HVAC equipment. Lacking air conditioning and adequate ventilation, many came down with colds that went untreated due to the lack of health insurance. A cockroach problem soon erupted due to the crumbs and food garbage strewn about the cellar floor, which was treated with multiple Raid roach fogger bombs. The morning after the exterminators finished, dead roaches littered our keyboards and even crawled, stunted but still living, from the floppy drives and servers!

We were paid $21 an hour, straight time, and required to work from 9 am to 11 pm seven days a week. Forbidden to use the firm’s lavish upstairs restrooms, they had all 120 of us split a pair of airplane sized-bathrooms that were on the Concourse level under the Rock Center, open to the public and a favorite bathing spot for the homeless. One affable homeless chap named “Bones” would use the lone toilet in there as a foot bidet, rinsing his diabetic ulcer in the excrement-caked shitpot and yelling “I’m in here motherfucker!”every time one of us coders needed to relieve himself. Most of us just went next door and used the Heartland Brewery’s bathroom (did I mention that restroom breaks of over six minutes had to be deducted from one’s timesheet? As a coder, bowel movements can quickly cut into the bottom line).

Paul Weiss also blocked the fire exits with box upon box of the corporate shit-paper that arrived daily by the truckload like grist to a mill. Had a fire broken out, we would no doubt have burned to death in a modern day Triangle Shirtwaist incident, engulfed in flames while helplessly beating on box-blocked doorways. To work there was to truly feel expendable, utterly worthless and really just downright sub-human. The partners should all be ashamed of themselves.

As an aside, the few partners we met were decidedly unimpressive. An assortment of combed-over, potbellied schmucks and used-up old broads with skin like an alligator’s neck, they’d occasionally summon us coders upstairs for an ass-reaming. The “gals” were mostly snarling old chain smokers; voices like sandpaper of a single-digit grit. Nicotine oozed from their iron-gray hair. The men were milquetoast and gutless, too socially inept for sales and clearly too stupid for a serious profession like medicine. Most probably never spoke to a woman without first forking over their credit card number (did I mention Eliot Spitzer once worked here? Enough said). Hence they masqueraded as “elitists” in the also-ran world of make-work paper pushing that is law. One used-up old partner who looked like that guy from Jake & the Fatman once read to us verbatim for 3.5 hours straight from the training manual, probably assuming that as second-tier grads we were all functionally illiterate. His breath smelled like hot garbage.

To be sure, there were some good times down in the gulag. Romances bloomed, and occasionally one would enter the box-stacks to find sweaty limbs tangled in flagrante delicto. Working 14 hour days, it wasn’t long before many donned the “coder goggles” and began to pile-fuck people they wouldn’t havemade eyes with in the outside world. There were also some fascinating characters who this temp will never forget. One coder whom I’ll call “J”. soon earned the affectionate nickname “fade out.” A 40-something Yale Law grad, he had apparently suffered some kind of nervous breakdown at another Biglaw shop, and shortly found himself broke, blacklisted, and eternally condemned to the doc review circuit with the rest of us losers. He was eccentrically intelligent, speaking in bizarre philosopher jive like Jack Kerouac coming off a hard bender on acid. He’d launch into some long-winded dissertation and then, realizing that his audience (as it were) had long since departed, would simply mumble “right, right, that’s right” while nodding incoherently and returning to face his monitor. Hence the nickname “fade out:” like a song without a proper ending, he wound down as if an engineer simply lowered his volume until he’d exhausted his supply of words. This would happen like 20 times a day. I often wondered whatever became of the poor bastard. The last time we spoke he was washing his tube socks in the break-room sink and saying that “Big Cotton” was solely responsible for the assassination of JFK.

The next stop on my vagabond coding career was Sullivan & Cromwell, that whitest of the white shoe firms. This dump has three levels of sunless, underground bunkers where the temp attorneys and their documents are warehoused, far away from the skyline corner offices where the serious shitpaper gets pushed. It’s like those alternative communities of urban legend that one reads about online: the subway’s “mole people” and such. You are instructed by your temp agency pimp to meet in the lobby of 125 Broad Street at 9 am sharp, where you assemble as a group to be marched upstairs and “processed” like that busload of inmates from The Shawshank Redemption. Told to dress in a “suit and tie” for the first day, they soon march you downstairs to the dungeon where the “coders for life” toil in pajamas and sweatpants, chanting “new fish, fresh fish, we got new fish today” at the suit –clad newbies who are starting the first day of the rest of their lives. Many start openly weeping into their spiffy leather Perry Ellis portfolios, some even freshly monogrammed as recent law school graduation gifts. Many start bleating mindlessly for the mothers, returning to an infantile state as the overwhelming sadness and abject disappointment slowly seeps in. As I said, welcome ye to the first day of the rest of your life!

It’s not too bad there, after you get “on the beam,” as they say in prison. Sullivan is to disorganization, chaos, and complete systemic dysfunction what Elvis was to rock n’ roll: the original master. It’s a bit like that old Cold War joke: An American and a Russian are killed together and both go to Hell. The devil greets them fiendishly and says “Gentlemen, you have two choices. You can either go to American hell or Russian hell.” Curious, the American asks the Devil what the difference is. “In American hell,” says the Devil “you have to eat one shovel full of shit each day.”

“What about the Russian hell?,’ queries the Russian in his thick accent.. The Devil replies, “Comrade, in the Russian hell you have to eat two shovelfuls of shit each day.”

The American naturally chooses the American hell; yet tellingly, the Russian opts for the Russian hell. Two years later, they cross paths and begin sharing their experiences in eternal damnation.

“Comrade, you really screwed up big-time,” says the American. “In my hell I eat my shovel of shit first thing each morning, and do whatever I want to the rest of the day.” Satisfied, he gloats and scoffs at the hapless Ruskie, who replies: “My dear friend, it is you who choose poorly. In our Russian hell, half the time there’s no shovel, and the other half the time there’s no shit!”

So goes a document review project at Sullivan. Due to their colossal ineptitude, complete lack of common sense, and probably outright billing fraud, squads of coders arrive for the mandatory 14 hour “workdays” only to be kept idly waiting for hour upon endless hour as documents are loaded, clarifications are sought, software is configured, the moon rises in Taurus and Capricorn descends into autumn, etc. It’s rare to squeeze more than 45 minutes of actual coding time into a 14 hour day. Not knowing the Sullivan drill, many newbie coders turn down Sullivan gigs because the long mandatory hours rightly terrify them. But us veterans know the old “Clownshop” (as the temps call it) all too well. The waiting coders nap, play cards, vandalize the workstations and so on while waiting for documents and instructions that rarely arrive. Some even operate wire fraud scams and lotteries on the S&C computers, thus “double dipping” and making real bank. A cool Nigerian coder even once used the break-room hot plate to cook us all an authentic African ox-tail stew, which ended with a dessert course provided by raiding the partner’s pantry freezer and ripping off a case of ice-cream sandwiches that were meant for some lame Merrill Lynch client meeting or whatever.

Of course, the clients are billed regardless, since firms of this caliber are as immune to the ethics rules as Typhoid Mary was to disease. It’s always some solo ambulance chaser who ends up disbarred for screwing up a $1500 fender bender whiplash case, while Sullivan and the other white-shoe thieves rip off Fortune 500 client’s cash by the wheelbarrow load with time-wasting make-work and pointless re-reviews of the same irrelevant documents. A few weeks at this place really removes any doubt about what the “practice of law” has devolved into circa 2009: a soulless, money-grubbing scam that is socially toxic, utterly pointless, and rife with insecurity and adolescent pettiness. Did I mention that licensed attorneys below the associate level are not even referred to as “attorneys” by the insecure dolts who run this glorified sewer? The sub-associate level lawyers are called “case analysts” and are essentially perma-temps, installed to babysit the coders and squeal on them like the “straw bosses” of 19thcentury coal mines. Chosen more for their ass-kissing and willingness to rat out slackers than any legal ability, some of these folks are notorious on temp message boards, like the dreaded geek “Clovester” and well-fed “Big Mama.” Keep an eye out for them. Another SullCromscam is to fill the temp ranks with minority lawyers, thus tooting the “diversity” trumpet and looking good on paper to their corporate, hand-wringing whore-masters. Naturally, the partner-level ranks are as white as a wedding dress soaked in Clorox.

The true gutter “temps” pimped there by the staffing agencies are officially called “JD Temporary Document Coders” and you are warned at S&C’s orientation that it’s strictly forbidden to list the firm’s name on your resume. Instead, you must write only the name of your pimp-daddy temp agency and the term “Temporary JD Document Coder” even if you’re admitted to the New York State Bar. Name, rank and coder number! God forbid some hapless future shitlaw employer would mistakenly think that a Tier 2 grad was actually an “associate” at the Sullivan & Cromwell! The horror!

Our corporate “laws” are written by almost exclusively by ex-Biglaw partners, and purposely “drafted” as byzantine, ungrammatical, ill-considered and generally downright incomprehensible as possible, hence maximizing Biglaw billable hours. It’s a bit like a dentist handing out saltwater taffy and boxes of Bubble-Yum to drum up root canal business. (By the way, I’ve always loved the pompous word “drafted” when referring to legal cut n’ paste shitpaper, as if this stilted dreck was akin to naval architecture or some other worthwhile feat of engineering). If the oafish dolts at the NY Times and other media whores saw the true breadth and depth of the Biglaw farce the way the coders do, barrels of ink would be spilled writing about it and “blowing the whistle.” New York’s also-ran diploma mills like Brooklyn, Cardozo (called Car-Bozo by employers), Pace, St. John’s, Hofstra, Touro, and the infamous New York Law School (whose motto is a chagrined “no, we’re not NYU”), are essentially fathering a new breed of white-collar underclass: heavily indebted, sporadically employed, poorly paid, bereft of health insurance and stuck in dead-end temp jobs that pay lower hourly rates (after student loans are deducted from salary) than many unskilled day laborers earn. These “schools” charge Lamborghini prices for a clapped-out Yugo with 4 flat tires and sawdust in the gearbox. Talk about cash for clunkers! When you push these “jalopy” JD’s into the traffic of this employment market, be prepared to get run off the road.

Ah, how I tire. Age. Do we die all at once, or a little each day? The clock creeps all too slowly on these temp projects, though. Crawls. It’s sometimes as if time itself were submerged underwater, with minutes dragging on for days as if mired in quicksand. After all, we’re doomed to tedious and mindless make-work akin to Sisyphus of yore rolling his boulder up the perpetual hill. The terminally ill, I’ve often argued, could easily add “phantom” years to their doomed lives just by showing up on a document review gig, where an hour of “coding time” equals approximately four decades in the “outside world.” A three-week project would to them equal a virtual second life.

Of course, it’s pointless to point this unvarnished state of affairs out to the bright eyed lemmings who in two weeks will be enthralled by Pierson v. Post (that old fox-chase chestnut), and the other antiquated dreck that constitute the overpriced, pseudo-intellectual farce that is American law school. On a forum called Top Law Schools there are children entering Cardozo’s class of 2012 and already trying to decide whether to go right into Skadden Arps or stop off at a Second Circuit clerkship first! Decisions, decisions!

68 - every look up the meaning of "irony?" Because 63 ain't it. Lrain on your wedding day. That's not irony; just bad luck.

189, Did you bill that time on your client?

68 - every look up the meaning of "irony?" Because 63 ain't it. Like rain on your wedding day. That's not irony; just bad luck.

189 - Nice piece. You should just move to Mexico.

189 = Roxana

attention all firms ranked lower than 65: feel free to move yourselves up a spot.

wow, i'm so glad atl decided to post this two days after it actually came out. i remember when i came to atl for breaking news, not old news.

190 - 'Tis why "irony" is in quotation marks. "Irony" is the Alanis Morisette definition. Regular irony (no quotation marks) is like getting into an accident on your way to teach a defensive driving course. Or Regan getting hit with a bullet that bounced off his bulletproof limo.

wow - Steptoe took a dive - what's up with that?

Please note that Latham was able to escape a large part of bad rankings because those laid off cannot rank Latham (only those working in other firms can) and people working at other law firms have already filled out their surveys and would not go back and re-rank another firm. Former laid off associates, including myself, did go back and add shitty (true) comments, but those would not show up in the rankings, but rather in the comments.

Conclusion: Next year Latham will fall much more since it escaped most of bad publicity by conducting a public layoff a week after the rankings were due.

189, you need to get laid.

Weil and Skadden above Cleary? I guess Vault doesn't account for how the firms treat their associates, incoming associates, or summer classes. Prestige whoredom = FAIL.

189, you're not going to open with that?

189, 194, Roxana couldn't write that if her writing workshop instructor dictated it to her.

On the plus side, no other top firm will ever do large layoffs again. The only real difference between how the economy hit LW verse the other corporate heavy firms (S&C, STB, Skadden, KE, Cleary, etc.) is that LW fired so many they got caught. The rest of them where hurting, but hung in there so comparative no changes between them. Thanks partners for saving our prestige by taking a little in your pockets.

I would kill for access to info on Weil's recruiting for this year. I wonder if in Corp and Lit they will see a large jump in the quality of people who accept, think "it's the highest ranked offer I got", even though the increase is due to Harvey Miller's Bankruptcy Group in the worst economic period in nearly a century.

Hey Vault, what about Debevoise? No layoffs, 100% offer rate, no deferalls for 2009 first years and they add a former A.G. and Solictor General.

I can one access the firm ranked 26-100. Only the top 25 are in there.

168- No one gives a shit about temps

Next year's rankings should provide more of a shake up. This year's surveys were due before a lot of the significant economic-related action occurred among many law firms and it is reasonable to assume that many associate surveys were turned in early, failing to take into account economic-relating action occurring even before the survey deadline. Next year, watch to see if Latham moves out of the top-25 and if Paul Hastings moves out of the top-50 (along with other significant shifts).

Cravath, bitches!

Vault is bullshit, Paul Weiss should be #1

Rankings give my life meaning. Without them, I am nothing and my work is nothing.

211, ahahahahahah

Debevoise and Paul Weiss should definitely be in Top 10. This ranking is problematic at best.

Dear Latham-haters,

Law firms are service industry businesses, not social welfare systems for the overly self-entitled. The firm didn't lay people off because it couldn't absorb losses in the economic down turn (unprecedented half-year lump sum severances to those let go is strong evidence that the firm didn't do it to save money), there were mass lay-offs because there wasn't enough work to go around. Without work, no one gets the training they need. Since the lay-offs here (and because of the lay-offs), the remaining associates have been relatively busy while many of the rest of you have still been sitting around complaining. When the economy picks up, I'm curious how your clients will feel about paying third year associate rates for people who have less than 500 hours of deal experience. I'm also curious about how effective the training for your first years will be when they are getting it from mid-levels who barely know how to tie their legal shoelaces because they've spent the last year and a half on abovethelaw instead of doing deals. From the inside, what happened still looks like pretty good long-view business management in a bad situation. Falling out of the top ten will be a blip on the radar and is a function of the survey being conducted in the last few hours when we all knew massive lay-offs were imminent. If I prove to be wrong, I swear I will self-flagellate by lateraling to Skadden.

--Proud Latham Associate

Foley & Lardner did not conduct layoffs, yet still didn't climb the charts ---> what gives?

213,

211 has a point. Maybe Paul Weiss shouldnt be number 1 but compared to every other firm on that list save W&C and C&B, Paul Weiss has done no stealth layoffs or deferrals. Please remove your head from your ass and come back when you're ready

215

Dear Latham Koolaid drinker.

Learn to fuckin forecast your hiring needs. Firing nearly half the associates in one office suggests terrible management.

-Proud Latham hater

Vault is a joke. There really is no way to do an "overall" ranking of firms since firms have different specialties (Weil - Bankruptcy, Cahill - High Yield, etc.). Its sort of like comparing apples and oranges.

"Prestige" is a rather fuzzy, subjective term. What the heck does it mean anyways? If you really want an objective measure, use the AmLaw 200 profits per partner grid - definitely a good indicator of whose services clients and lawyers really value.

The only people who care about Vault are Law Students who know nothing and Abovethelaw.com which simply needs things to talk about.

Cravath- Deferred all of its summers, moderately busy
Skadden - Deferred all of its summers, moderately busy
S&C - Starting all summers next fall, very busy

This is why vault surveys should be taken at the end of the summer rather than in the spring.

Dear proud Latham associate (215),

Skadden does not take laterals from firms outside the top ten.

-Skadden Secure

215,

you wouldn't be so thrilled if you were one of the many laid off first years who've had their careers destroyed by this. skadden offered deferrals. latham could have done the same. ruining a bunch of careers before they got started was unnecessary. plus, hiring twice as many first years as you need indicates poor management.

If we're looking at selectivity, Skadden's ranking is complete BS

Has anyone heard of Paul Weiss? I think he might have gone to my middle school but I'm not sure.

189 - Dont post anything that long ever again.

Shearman's rep is still in the toilet for their shady behavior in 2002. Latham pulled a Shearman ^10. Latham's on its way down. I don't believe these rankings reflect the full impact of Latham's reputational hit.

And to 215. Don't be foolish. Skadden's not going hire from a firm ranked as low as Latham. Welcome to life at a TTT firm in decline.

Guys in my high school used to give swirlies to a guy named Paul Weiss all the time. It was no big deal.

215 is flame. In all fairness, Vault is worthless drivel, but LW never really belonged in the top ten in the first place.

Skadden above DPW and S&C is a joke. Especially when this is a "prestige" ranking.

I will start my own website and just list the top 10 every year:

1. Wachtell
2. S&C
3. DPW
4. Cravath
5. Munger
6. Covington
7. SImpson
8. Cleary
9. Weil
10. Skadden
.
That is pretty much the best "mixed prestige" ranking. It reflects the competition to get into the respective firms, the client base and the impact of the crisis. Cravath would be hire if not for the mismanagement of their recent summer/full time classes. Skadden is simply far too easy to get an offer at relative to the others and Weil gets a boost because of its bankruptcy assignments.

"Skadden does not take laterals from firms outside the top ten." = bullshit

230

sorry, they're not going to dip as low as Latham. Skadden is a top 3 firm and Latham = 17.

Fail.

you had a better chance of surviving the black plague than as a first year at Latham NY.

Latham ruins careers.

Skadden over S&C and DPW? That's absurd. I can't think of a big crisis/bailout deal that didn't have either S&C or DPW on it.

How many big crisis deals was Skadden on?

Skadden is ranked higher because it's so large. That's the flaw in this ranking system. The only true rank is to just count up the percentage of top scholars at the top 5 schools at each firm. THAT would be a true measure of prestige. Add on a requirement that the firm employ a minimum of 250 lawyers (or something to that effect) and then have a ranking system.

For example, you would just count Yale grads on Yale Law Journal, Harvard grads with Magna Cum Laude (and/or Law Review), Columbia grads with Kent and/or Law Review, Stanford grads with distinction (or LR), and Chicago grads with distinction (or LR). That constitutes the measurement group. Then just rank the firms based on how many of their lawyers those groups represents as % of total lawyers.

You can obviously tweak (add circuit clerkships to thata list) but this is really the best way to measure prestige.

Skadden is ranked higher because it's so large. That's the flaw in this ranking system. The only true rank is to just count up the percentage of top scholars at the top 5 schools at each firm. THAT would be a true measure of prestige. Add on a requirement that the firm employ a minimum of 250 lawyers (or something to that effect) and then have a ranking system.

For example, you would just count Yale grads on Yale Law Journal, Harvard grads with Magna Cum Laude (and/or Law Review), Columbia grads with Kent and/or Law Review, Stanford grads with distinction (or LR), and Chicago grads with distinction (or LR). That constitutes the measurement group. Then just rank the firms based on how many of their lawyers those groups represents as % of total lawyers.

You can obviously tweak (add circuit clerkships to thata list) but this is really the best way to measure prestige.

i hear bob dell and dave gordon bathe together in the tears of lathamed first years

234/235 = fail at life.

"Skadden does not take laterals from outside the top ten."

EPIC LOL

When I asked an interview who had lateraled to Skadden NY from a Cali firm I had never heard of why he choose Skadden, he said, "Skadden was the only place that gave him an offer."

Skadden is without doubt the easiest offer to get in the V10 (maybe V15).

Skadden haters:

Just be happy for all the 2Ls going to T14 who will now get to tell their parents how THEY GOT AN OFFER FROM THE #3 FIRM IN THE COUNTRY. Skadden's offer rate is what 95% for the top schools?

"Yea mom, my firm is really awesome, it's ranked #3 in prestige. Speaking of that, is it cool if I crash in the basement until January 2011?"

238 = bob dell

When I hear "prestige" I think about what kind of lawyer you'll be after 5 years at the firm, and what level of exit opportunities you'll have. That's ultimately going to vary as much by practice area as by firm (Weil BK > Simpson BK).

But regardless, associates as a whole aren't the people I'd be asking. Senior associates, partners, general counsel, those are the people whose opinions of a firm's "prestige" might actually matter to me someday.

I'm at a V5, but if a Williams & Connolly 5th year resume carries more weight than a 5th year resume from my firm, W&C is more prestigious in every sense that matters.

Everything's relative to practice area, geography, and which doors you care about opening.

I can't find Coudert Brothers anywhere in the rankings, what happened to them???

229 -- yeah, no w&c on your idiotic ranking? good job! did you get dinged already??

Skadden is the McMansion of law firms.

What I want to know is who are the LEAST prestigious firms in the AMLAW 100. Presumably there isn't complete concordance between Vault and the amlaw 100 -- so what amlaw100 firms were pushed out by smaller firms?

Maybe somebody can do that leg work so we can mock those firms.

Has any firm ever risen as fast through the ranks as Quinn?

Best firm in CA --- now GDC

The California hierarchy:
1. GDC
2. Munger
3. Irell
4. Quinn
5. Skadden
6, Latham / OMM
.......
Attorneys whose pictures you find on busses or benches
.....
PH

249: quinn troll

but quinn is #1 in douchebaggery

Offer to summer at S&C and an offer to summer at Skadden??? Does anyone really think that is a tough decision?

If I was a Quinn troll I would have put them as #1 --- 249 ---- The list is pretty accurate

226: 2L

Vault Lathamed Latham

Pay cut at Covington announced today. Didn't take long.

235 - you are so stupid you should have been laid off. You think partners fired people because they wanted to train 1st and 2nd years they don't give a shit about so they can push them out the door as midlevels? Nobody gives a shit about your due diligence training and changing names in agreements. They hired people because they thought the rollercoaster will never end. They fired people because they thought the world is over.

Next step are clients. Once clients see the shitty rankings (don't worry, other firms will bring it up to them), Latham will be unable to bill high rates, thus partners leaving, thus falling further into abyss. Latham will not have difficulty finding people for next year, but what about after that? Quality of work decreases, no brand name law firms on the website equals Why am I paying so much for LaTTTam?

Fire Bob Dell and Dave Gordon for ruining a prestigious law firm

224=227=Failure

256, do you honestly believe clients know about or care about the fucking Vault rankings?

No one besides law students care. Those of us who work at these firms know how completely ludicrous it is to base rankings on the unfounded and uninformed opinions of lawyers from other law firms who know nothing about 99% of the firms they're asked to rank.

Latham's clients may well think less of the firm because of how plainly it mismanaged itself over the last few years relative to other firms. But not because a bunch of 25 year-olds fresh out of law school gave it bad Vault ratings because of its layoffs/what they read on ATL.

- "V10" 5th year associate.

Anyone know when the partner prestige and practice area rankings are due out? I think those are more important if you already know what type of law you want to practice.

The Vault rankings don't mean jack. Latham took a hit, but it will not last. The survey was after the layoffs. Still a lot of angry ex-lathamites on this site I see. Sorry you got laid off, but get on with it and do something more productive with yourselves than ranting on this site. Waah, the economy tanked and I got laid off. Waahhh. The people at Latham are evil. Waahhh. Now i feel vindicated after the vault rankings. Waahhhh. Mommy - waaahhhhhh.

This is Chuck Shick. Chuck is clerking with me for the summer

Hey everybody, we're all going to get Lathamed!

Any suprise LaTTTham got dropped to 17? They open 3 mid-east offices in mid-2008, but turn around and law off 500 attorneys and staff in 2009... Way to go LaTTTham

260 = Dave Gordon

258

Dave Gordon should've been the first one fired. Then Bob Dell after him. They should've deferred/offered people a year off like the rest of the top 10. Either that or sucked up.

256 is right.

the Latham firings weren't about training, that's just the bullshit company line Bob Dell and Dave Gordon spoon fed to you to make the layoffs seem more tolerable. just ask the summer associates about their fake work assignments.

Latham could have avoided huge first year layoffs by 1) offering people a year off, 2) transferring people between offices, and/or 3) giving out fake work like they did for their summers.

Dirty Dave and Blundering Bob laid everyone off because they overreacted to a downturn just like they overreacted when things were good.

249 is a rabid Latham troll. The Cal hierarchy is:

The California hierarchy:
1. GDC
2. Munger
3. Irell
4. Quinn
5. Skadden
6, OMM
.......
Attorneys whose pictures you find on busses or benches
.....
PH, Latham

Is Latham now officially Second Tier? Are they in trouble, will they end up like Brobeck?

No one remembers Brobeck any more, it used to be a top firm during the dotcom bubble.

GDC trolls

Goodwin Procter jumped from 54 to 43. Jumping 11 spots after a couple years outside the Top 50 is a nice move. The distance between them and Ropes really doesn't seem to be based off anything.

I can't believe all these nimrods obsessing over vault rankings.

What really matters is the quality of your individual experience at a particular firm.

The overall ranking of a particular firm doesn't matter much.

271 = bob dell

Buy a decent suit. You can't come in here looking like this. Just go to Morty Sills - tell him I sent you.

235-

Thats an interesting idea, but it suffers from the same problem that the Vault rankings do - i.e. who says what the top 5 law schools are - US News?