From the Lavender Law Conference: Coming Out in the Profession
We’re having a pretty gay Monday here at Above the Law. Earlier today, we discussed which top law firms won recognition from the Human Rights Campaign for being LGBT-friendly.
Perhaps we’ll still recovering from the weekend. As we mentioned before, we spent part of it attending the excellent Lavender Law conference, over in Brooklyn (just a short subway ride away from the ATL offices in Soho). In case you’re not familiar with the conference, here’s some background:
Every year, the sharpest legal minds in the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community gather at the National LGBT Bar Association’s annual conference and career fair.Hundreds of practicing attorneys, dozens of scholars, over 500 students and many leading members of the judiciary are expected to attend over the course of this year’s events.
We moderated a panel on Saturday, focused on federal courts and LGBT equality, and we attended several other panels and workshops. We’ll be writing a bit about the conference proceedings.
Our first conference write-up — discussing the workshop Coming Out in the Profession: “But What Will the Clients Think?”, which may interest young LGBT attorneys — appears after the jump.
The panel featured the following participants:
Here’s what they discussed. Please note that this is far from a verbatim transcript of the conversation; it’s just our informal summary of the highlights of what was said. The questions came from moderator Laura Maechtlen and from the audience.
What is it like being out at work?
Gallion: I came out because it was important for me to be honest with my colleagues. Also, I market to the LGBT community.
Reese: At Estee Lauder, I wanted to be honest about who I am and have open discussions about my life. Plus, I work for a beauty company. [Laughter.] That said, it’s a personal choice; some people are out at Estee Lauder, and others aren’t.
Trevino: I was at a conservative firm in Houston before I was in-house, and I was in the military before that. I lived a double life in the military and also at the firm. The firm was not a good environment for gay people; offensive jokes were made at the firm retreat. I decided to leave the firm and wanted to go to a place committed to diversity and LGBT issues.
Gallion: I started at a regional law school in Tennessee, almost two years there. My experience was similar to what John Trevino described — a conservative environment, water cooler jokes. At Seyfarth, the environment is very supportive.
Reese: as in-house lawyers, our “clients” are the business-side people. At the company, many of the top brass are straight white men, but people are very understanding. I’ll mention my being gay if it comes up naturally in conversation.
Trevino: I have a picture of my partner in my office; it’s not a problem.
Gallion: I open up slowly to clients — I do it over time, in casual conversation. I don’t do it immediately. I want to feel comfortable with a client first. I’ve had pretty much universally positive reactions.
There are some differences. I might not play golf with my clients; I might take them to a Beyonce concert. The marketing aspect is different.
Could “coming out” be inappropriate or improper under certain circumstances?
Trevino: It depends on context. For example, if we’re discussing a motion for summary judgment, you shouldn’t blurt out, “I’m a lesbian.”
It can be a plus — there is networking within the LGBT community. It can help LGBT outside counsel move up in the ranks if they have good relationships with clients.
Peak: With sexual orientation, you can’t always assume it based on appearance. I don’t make assumptions about outside counsel I work with, for example. But I might mention my partner because I don’t want my clients to feel that their being gay could be a problem.
Gallion: I sometimes wait for cues like that from clients before coming out.
How early should one come out?
Peak: It’s a personal decision. I’m there to do a job. My grandmother counseled me not to be out (and repeatedly tried to set me up with her banker; I had to remind her I’m a lesbian [laughter]). I had to get comfortable in my surroundings before coming out. I was at American Airlines for a few years before coming out.
Trevino: It’s partly a generational thing. Younger lawyers tend to be more open. They’ll ask in interviews about domestic partner benefits. When I graduated law school, I was terrified about being out. I felt, early on, that I had to “pass” or “cover” until I established myself professionally.
Reese: I took a more aggressive stance: if you have a problem with my sexuality, then I don’t want to work for you.
Trevino: You should feel free to ask about LGBT issues when you interview because you don’t want to go a place where it would be a problem. At our company, we are trying to get the outside law firms we work with to disclose information about their LGBT policies and diversity numbers.
You seem to work in environments where people are supportive. What about less friendly environments and how to deal with them? And in this economy, do you want anything out there that could be a problem for a potential employer?
Reese: On the one hand, you don’t want to alienate people. On the other hand, you want to work at a place that values you as a person.
Trevino: Make yourself valuable to the firm, so the focus is on your work. Continue to build relationships. Network with potential clients. These are businesses; if you can bring them business, they will value you.
Peak: Some corporate clients are starting to ask about how their outside law firms deal with diversity issues.
What can we do to advance LGBT diversity in the profession?
Reese: At our company, when reorganizing our list of outside counsel, we requested that firms provide us with information about diversity. It was in our request for proposals. We put that pressure on outside firms.
Peak: We take note of which law firms are sponsoring LGBT-focused events and conferences, like Lavender Law. That’s a positive for us.
What should you do if you’re an associate at a law firm and a client of the firm makes inappropriate comments at a meeting?
Gallion: Talk to the partner you’re working with and discuss the situation. If I were in the shoes of that partner, I would talk to the client. Sometimes it’s necessary to have tough conversations with clients. Of course, you need to frame it the right way when speaking with the client.
Reese: If outside counsel disrespected us, as in-house lawyers, we as the client would raise the issue with the relationship partner. If someone within the company said something inappropriate to me, it becomes more of an HR issue, and there is a process for that.
Coming Out in the Profession: “But, What Will the Clients Think?” [Lavender Law / National LGBT Bar Association]
Earlier: Biglaw Is Good to Gays
(44) Comments
Comments
FIRST!
This is fine if you're working in NY, SF, DC, etc. But I'd proceed with caution outside the big coastal cities.
Why did Lat smuggle them bones?
Lat makes Mystal the walrus smuggle his plums.
Fuzzy peach tickler
Out mid level associate in biglaw here. Never been a problem...actually been more of an asset.
who cares
Homos.
Gay homos.
Gay homo fish.
Guys in my high school hired gay and lesbian lawyers all the time, it was no big deal.
- (Secretly Gay) Frat Stud
8
It has never been a secret.
2-I concur. Out here, that funny business would not be tolerated.
It's tough to bring up the lgbt diversity issue. I worked before law school at an engineering firm where gay jokes were made all the time. No one knew I was gay cause I just didn't talk about my relationships at work, but it was unsettling and always left me wondering if they would have been accepting if they had known. Now, I'd prefer not to have to worry about that at a firm. As the same time, I don't like asking about diversity during an interview cause frankly, you won't hear me talking about relationships at work (other people do, and go right ahead, just not my thing). I always worry it makes me come across as more a fuzzy handcuff person instead of a golden handcuff person.
Midlevel associate at a V10 firm here. My general approach is "don't ask don't tell." A few of my close friends know, but I don't advertise it. I figure why make life harder on myself.
What about government - esp. prosecutor's offices? I would think the "macho" environment of a U.S. attorney's office or district attorney's office would not welcome gay men (lesbians, okay).
Individuals who make the lifestyle choice to sleep with the same sex are confused. A gay man supposedly wants a man, but other gay men are effeminate. However, the dynamic does not tend to be the same amongst lesbians--there is usually the dominant partner.
2, 10, I disagree. It's commonly known that V&E Texas guys give the best blowjobs.
Great post! Thanks David.
"Diversity" is an excuse for illegal quotas. Discrimination should be illegal, but affirmative action, including "networking", is likewise illegal discrimination. Companies that "push" outside law firms on "diversity issues" should reconsider before they get sued.
@17 - "networking" is illegal discrimination?
13 - I don't know anything about prosecutors, but I'm at a federal agency and just had to listen to four coworkers (non-lawyers) disparaging gays and lesbians over lunch. I've found a lot of government people are surprisingly vocal about hating gays/immigrants/etc. We had some signs ripped out of elevators during gay pride month and the Secretary had to send out an all employee email telling us to stop acting like children. There are a lot of former military people in all parts of the government, which I don't think helps, although they are definitely not the only ones voicing the opinions I hear.
The gay mafia is very powerful. Do NOT cross them.
"Don't Ask Don't Tell" doesn't work in the military, and it doesn't work in the workplace either. Forcing a group to play by different rules than their coworkers (i.e., gays being prohibited from honestly answering common questions about whether they are married, or what they did over their vacation) is oppressive, and ensures unhealthy morale. What is needed is some leadership by people who have the guts to hold the homophobes and bigots to the same standards as everyone else.
And family matters are not private or "personal" at all in the workplace. Just take a look at any HR benefits forms you're required to fill out when you sign up, and you'll see that whether you are "married" is front and center. So for anyone who professes that gays shouldn't flaunt their personal lives at work, please take off your wedding ring and take that picture of your fat wife and ugly kids off your desk. And thank god there are laws to prohibit bigots like you from oppressing those who happen to be different and who are only tryin to live a life with more integrity and love.
20- you are exactly right. It's payback for how you treated us in high school and middle school. We had to unionize eventually!
22 FTW
We rule fashion and media, but our network in law is pretty good too.....
20, 22
You all are amatures.
-The Jews
*ejaculates*
-gross old man
21 is correct.
24 is maybe the best post I've seen. As soon as I read 23 I was thinking, "How can I explain to gays that they can't break into Judaism and therefore, can't rule the world, all while making it witty and funny?" Well done 24. Well done.
19,
What part of the country and size of city do you work in?
I suggest not coming out at work. Law firms are just horrible -- even my DC firm that is allegedly progressive (and has sent people to the Obama administration). If you are male and not e-mailing everyone about your new baby every few years, prepare not to have as much mentorship from the partners. And expect to get the crap work since you are single and have no "real" other obligations in life.
If you get a job at an airline or cosmetic company be as gay as you want. But pretty much every major corporate law firm is not friendly. This panel did not have representatives relevant to 99% of law school graduates.
21,
The laws against gay discrimination are pretty much useless. I have a slam dunk case against my law firm for anti-gay bias but I'd be an idiot to sue my law firm. If I sued my firm I would be pretty much guaranteed to never work at a law firm again (and maybe even gov't jobs).
And now in 2009 I would have the addition of David Lat running 20 posts about my lawsuit, commenting on my physical appearance, and causing me to be ridiculed by ATL readers even if my lawsuit won a sizeable settlement from the firm.
David two meaningless LGBT posts in one day! Seriously please dont use ATL as a forum to promote your gay activism and if you do not post every forum on real estate, arbitration or sports and law, please do not post unimportant LGBT nonsense.
Thanks 31.
This was a really nice write-up, David. I look forward to your coverage of the rest of the conference.
Not to point out the obvious, 31, but this is his blog. Perhaps you should look elsewhere.
34, maybe David should then make it clear that this is an LGBT legal site which it does claim to be! Seriously why does one care what HRC or the Lavender non-sense mean for us all!
35 - I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to do that. You are welcome to note that it is heavily gay (which I've been reading for a year and this is one of only a handful of "gay" stories I have seen) and take your exit to another site.
Readers have no say. Get over it.
Keep it up Lat - great coverage.
What's great is that since sexual orientation is not a protected class, hiring someone because they are gay does not discriminate against anyone.
Anyone who isn't willing to be open at work is missing out. I won't compromise for a job. My family is just as relevant and important as the heterosexuals at work. I'm not hiding them. Anyone who suggests I should can FO.
35, as someone who has three callbacks from firms who participated at lavender law, I'd say it matters to you all because it is one way I'll be getting a job at your firm. Don't despair though, in this economy it might help you get an interview to be gay, but in the end the firms are still focused on how well you write, grades, etc.
Oh also, it matters when your client is gay and wants a firm that actually does value gay associates (and doesn't just say they do). As someone above said, don't cross the gays. We don't f***ing play.
The gays have come to the rescue of David and his otherwise silly post with meaningless crap like ohhh I got three interviews.
31 well said!
I hope my son does not turn out to be a gay.
31
David you post all you want to.
If you want to really judge how gay-friendly a firm is, you can do a search for who at the firm donated money to Prop8. (Granted this has a CA-bias -_-)
http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/prop8/
Here is a gem: Richard L. Wirthlin has been with Latham & Watkins for more than 21 years and is a Corporate Department partner in the firm's Los Angeles office. He is a founding member of the firm's Media & Entertainment Practice Group
He donated $9,100 to support Prop8, yet is involved in the firm's Entertainment Group in LA!? That can't be good for business lol.
Whew, what a relief! Now I can continue with my plan to get surgery and finally transform myself into a woman!
I worked at District Attorney's office in New York County for more than five years. Some people knew I was gay, some people did not. It was never a big deal. My immediate supervisors knew and were always supportive.
@ 17, is that you, Joe Wilson?