First, and genuine, Weasel!

Damn.

Suck it, Weasel Boy!

Firsty McGrew strikes again.

Guess Im not first after all. Screw!

more people clamoring for gov't jobs means more open biglaw spots for me. Idiots.

- CORNELL SECURE

More people clamoring for gov't hands means more people with time on their hands to clamor for FIRST.

supply & demand is a cold reality at times.....

Interestingly, FTC is apparently not doing the same for 3L applicants; I sent materials on Sunday and did not receive a similar email.

I'm king of the world, bitch!

-GOVT. SECURE

EEOC IS HIRING: http://www.eeoc.gov/soars/index.html

Can I just go ahead and drop out of law school now?

9- Nice job Fucko. You just increased your number of competitors

6- Good luck.

-Arent Fox

I'm class of 2009 from a DC area school, and I feel pretty fortunate to have my government job. I'm still getting rejection letters from 12-18 months ago for some of the govt positions that I obviously did not get.

For those graduating this year, also consider the Presidential Management Fellows program. It's competitive and leads to an initial non-attorney appointment, but it opens doors if you want to make a career out of Federal work. I know some current and former PMFs that found their way in through the program and have really done well.

A lot of state & local governments are bleeding right now (see, e.g., Philly DA's office) but if you can start here, it's pretty common to jump to biglaw a few years later doing the private sector side of whatever you were doing in government (i.e., from regulatory prosecution to defense, etc.). As random as it may seem, state & local are still hiring in select practice areas - good networking will get you the intel about where to target.

We need to bomb the private sector back to the stoneage!

-DOJ Secure

Klitz!

This pisses me off. I've always wanted to work for the government and now all these loser over privileged fuktards who wanted to work for big firms will get the jobs and then bail as soon as things turn around. fubar.

9- they closed the program yesterday, which is why you didn't get the email.

Let me add, though, that this is ridiculous. A deadline should be a deadline, particularly if you don't say it's a rolling type of thing.

He is so DEMURE <8

Competition for govt cheese has increased on all levels, not just for summer or entry. My advice to those who do get in -- don't leave. Ever. I did and it's the biggest mistake so far in my career.

I don't consider Cornell law to be a top ranked school, however, times must be tough when its career services office is trying to push government jobs on its students. Why spend the money to go to Cornell law when law schools such as Moritz have as much success in placing its graduates in public sector jobs?

No bureau of "competition" joke? I'm impressed, Elie.

@22 -- please elaborate if you can. I've been in the private sector a few years but have limited experience in the government (clerkship plus another legal job with a government agency). Each has its ups and downs. The government job had a lot less pressure and fewer hours (plus no real need to keep track of time), but obviously the pay was worse. I'd appreciate hearing why you thought the move to the private sector was such a mistake. Thanks.

@ 22. I'm currently a patent attorney at the PTO. Some attorneys left for the private sector about 2 years ago for the bigger bucks and longer hours. I was tempted but stayed put. F*cking glad I did!

After the private sector dried up, I started getting bombarded by emails as they felt out their chances of returning. (I noticed that their emails somewhat coincided with layoff announcements on abovethelaw). Unfortunately, they have no chance of returning due to a hiring freeze which may continue into fiscal year 2011.

Good luck out there.

Maybe students should look beyond prestigious governments like the U.S., and look for jobs with more TTT governments -- e.g., Mexico, Italy, Iraq, Mississippi.

Hey Lat--

See comments 22, 25, 26? Those are just a few of the people wishing you'd go ahead and give us a federal government work open thread.

PE,
I don't presume to tell you how to run your preeminent, peer law firm. However, I suggest that you add some perks for your associates to boost morale. These could include personal valets on staff to run errands for the harried associates and flex time options. It is the moral thing to do.

I do on-campus recruiting for a federal entity. Was recently at a Top 10 school and the continued arrogance was shocking. These kids seemed to think because they were considering govt service that I was supposed to just check off "recommend hire" because they gave me 30 minutes of their time. Most showed up having done ZERO research on the position, its requirements, etc. and treated it like an informational interview. Needless to day, not one of the dozen or so I interviewed will be recommended for callbacks, much less hiring.

This drives me absolutely crazy. I have always wanted to do government work, and I went to a top 5 school. I start my career at biglaw to pay the debt and get the mark on my resume, but boom, the bottom drops out and now i'm unemployed, competing with all these people who consider serving your country to be a fallback rather than the highest of aspirations.

If you don't love the law, leave law school. Law school should not ever have become what it is; a place for smart but directionless people who are bad at math to camp out after college. Those of us who truly loved the law and wanted a legal career not for the money but for the work itself are getting shut out and employers cannot distinguish us from the disingenuous assclowns now flooding everywhere with applications.

@ 25. I can give you the reasons that the attempted agency returnees have provided me. However, this may be agency specific.

They made more money in the private sector but the increased pay was not proportional to the increased hours. Factor in quality of life benefits (e.g. working from home, flexible hours, low pressure work environment, pension plans...) and better job security with the federal govt, and they realized that they made an error ... based upon the whole package they were looking for.

Some liked the private sector but assumed that as their law firms downsized that it would be last-one-in-first-one-out, and were trying to rig up a safety net.

- Poster formerly known as #26.

I took a federal government job after clerking in 2006. My law school classmates said I was crazy.

The pay wasn't as good then, and still isn't as good, compared with those who still have jobs. But my yearly raise is about ten percent, plus the annual cost of living increase is another big bump. I'm in court almost every day (including many court of appeals arguments) and home for dinner almost every night.

My law school classmates now wish they could get my job. They can suck it.

31 = gay

Hi 31. 33 here. We probably went to school together. You didn't say I was crazy for going into government work. In fact, you said you wished you could do it as well, but you had to go to a big firm because of the loans. Well, I have the same loans as you--I borrowed every dollar to go to school. I had a hard time for a couple years, but the money is better now, and I'll be at six figures within the next two years. See, it was possible. You just didn't want it bad enough.

You can suck it too.

The arrogance of "big law" people amazes me. You seem to think the world begins and ends with you and anyone not in big law must be a loser. It's just impossible for your little minds to accept that maybe, just maybe, not all capable attorneys want to spend their life doing corporate law. Apparently, your ability to get a high LSAT score has convinced you that you are, as Tom Wolfe would say, a master of the universe.

30: you sound like a complete asshat. Were you hoping that these "kids" at a "Top 10 school" would fawn over you or service you or something? Also, you claim that these "kids" did not conduct extensive research prior to interviewing, but you work for a "federal entity." It is not like federal entities have good webpages that explain exactly what it is first year attorneys will be doing. Might it be reasonable that the students have questions? Further, many federal entities do on-campus informational interviews only and encourage students to apply to the entity through a website. Students are aware of this, which leads them to not expect much and do only minimal preparation when interviewing with federal entities. Finally, I was not aware that there were "requirements" for positions with federal entities. You are aware that the Justice Department and many federal entities have been staffed with Monica Goodling/Regent University/145 LSAT types in recent years, aren't you?

35 - lots of government work can't be done straight out of law school. In fact, lots of the best. DOJ for instance won't hire you without at minimum a year unless you're in the honors program. There are countless other examples. The simple fact is cutting your teeth for 2-3 years in firms makes sense even if government is all you ever wanted to do. And those decisions were being made back when layoffs were all but unthinkable. Now people who only ever wanted to do good work are functionally locked out of the process, maybe for good. And if your answer is "suck it" because you were willing to have debt for 8-10 years rather than 3, my response is to enjoy working with people whose commitment is less genuine, who are only trying to camp out and will bolt the instant the next novel financial product is discovered, and were only able to make the switch more easily in the first place because of their luck of being an earlier class year than people laid off in their first year. Anyone who feels Schadenfreude at this situation needs to stop and reflect a bit. Seriously.

Any former PMFs reading this thread? Would love to know if you converted into an attorney position and how that process has worked out.

I'm a PMF for the next 2 years, looking to make a career out of federal service. This is hands down the best job I've ever had, and I'm the kind of person who had a career before law school and worked 50 hrs a week in big consulting while attending classes at night -- I know a good job when I have one.

Totally agree with 30 - the easiest way to distinguish between people like 31 who *want* government work vs. the people that 30 interviewed, who came only because it happened to fit into their OCI schedule, is to show actual interest in the work. I've been doing recruiting for my agency for 2 years now and trust me, we can tell the posers from the true believers.

On a related note, how are LLM's doing in terms of finding government work? I'm seeing inquiries from lots of them who are sounding desperate not to get deported after the bar. They're all pretty screwed, I think, except maybe the one guy who's a former prosecutor in his home country and another who's a former customs regulator. Anyone out there hiring non-citizens or non-LPR's?

40 - so you guys can tell i'm a true believer? Top half of my class from T5 and I'm sitting on 2 interviews from roughly 40 applications for entry level government positions. Is it really just that brutal out here, or do you think people are looking at my resume and thinking, "he's only here because he got let go, he'll bolt as soon as he gets an offer with more zeros on it."

I think its a bit of both. The former I understand because law is an oversubscribed profession, but the latter makes me furious, because short of breaking interview decorum or quoting the West Wing at people (kidding) there's nothing I can say that can alter anyone's impression.

@ 38. Big firm experience (hell, any experience!) is a good thing. I have only two complaints about big firm people that go government. This doesn't apply to all but it has been encountered enough that I sense a pattern.

1. Arrogance. I do not need to be reminded that you used to work at a big law firm at every occassion. I do not want to hear that your current work is beneath you. Furthermore, if you were such an amazing wunderkind at your old law firm, then f*cking quit and go back.

2. Golden Handcuffs. Some attorneys have the goal of paying off their debts by working at the big firm and then downshifting into government work. That's cool. Government work will never pay as much as top private sector positions. Never! So, if you buy a six bedroom house in the tony part of town and two luxury cars while living the big firm dream ... your government job will not allow you to sustain the dream. Sorry. I don't want to hear how you can barely scrape by on a $100K a year. I don't want to hear about your property taxes or the tuition problems with your kids' private elementary school.

- Poster formerly known as #26.

42 -

people who do #1 are misguided. The government work is the better work...churning out overpriced doc review hours is what one should look askance at.

People who do #2 are just poor financial planners who aren't thinking ahead. Once you've paid the debt its easy to live and even support a family on a government salary (ok, not easy but you get my point).

41: It depends, what did you do during law school? If your summers were at large law firms, the government interviewer might not buy your position. If you interned for fed/state/local govt, maybe a bit more credible.

Biglaw people:

Hypothetically speaking, if you had zero debt and more than 100k in liquid assets, and no wife or kids...what exactly would be the motivation for working at a bigfirm versus a federal gov't job that pays around 100k?

I'm only being half sarcastic here.

With this scenario, is there any good reason to be at a firm? Because before the economy tanked, this is what I asked myself occasionally after reading emails from friends in biglaw.

I guess I'm too dumb to figure out why there was such a tone of condescension from them. Maybe ignorance is bliss, but I could never figure out what I was missing.

44: I did one summer with a US Attorney's Office (my ultimate dream for the first 10 years of my career is to be a successful AUSA), and then my firm for my 2L summer.

41 - You can have the highest GPA from HYS but I wouldn't give you the time of day in an interview if the only unpaid internship you've ever done is with the Tobacco Defense & Unregulated River Dumping Fund - I'd rather talk to that guy with a mere 3.0 who worked for OSHA last summer. Yes, maybe it's hard for someone who's worked primarily in the private sector to demonstrate a genuine interest in government work, but it's just as hard for someone without a biglaw 2L SA to get into biglaw, so I'd say the playing field is even. You really do have to show that you want it more, and if quoting Sam, Toby, Josh, Leo, or Jed gets it done then that's what it's gonna take. (I for one would probably have a good chuckle if you really did that.) Seriously, if you think nothing you say will alter people's impression then maybe you need to do more mock interviews (with government lawyers, not career services as they're pretty useless outside the world of biglaw).

-40

@45

Both respect and money matter in a position. There's more respect for a big firm job, regardless of whether or not a position in a big firm merits more respect

Such is life

48 - Maybe that's true for the V20, but come on, you can't tell me that a firm at the bottom of the AmLaw 200 is more prestigious than a big city DA, big state AG, DOJ, JAG Corps, etc.

Any practicing attorney can tell you that prestige between the worlds of biglaw and government run parallel, not in layers.

47 i appreciate your candor. The only thing i have left to say is just please reconsider the impossible position that this mindset puts some people in.

Former JAG here.

I can tell you from experience that outside of NYC, being a JAG commanded tremendous respect almost everywhere I went. Not only were people impressed, they were kind, gracious, and interested in learning how to get my job.

I had to turn down so many free meals, first class airline seat upgrades, and drinks on the house during my time in the military. And yes, those simple gestures of patriotism really made me proud to serve. I can't imagine any other type of attorney being treated so wonderfully.

(Plus hot women way out of your league would practically throw themselves at you when you wore the dress white uniform...)

HOWEVER...within the confines of NYC...I would have been better off telling people I manually masturbated animals for artificial insemination.

51 - I went to school in DC and JAG is very well respected here. It was pretty competitive to get a slot for OCI.

Which branch were you in?

@45. Private sector positions have more prestige which government positions lack, although there are exceptions for certain "glamorous" federal positions or agencies. However, I think the prestige may be more perception than being grounded in reality. Plus, I've generally noticed that the prestige of a position is usually inversely proportional to how much the impressed knows about the true nature of the position.

Regardless, to me prestige is overrated. I can't pay bills with it, it won't solace me when I'm working weekends and it won't help me sleep at night. I focus on what I consider (IMHO) the more concrete and less nebulous characteristics of a position - pay versus hours worked, quality of life, job security ...

Private sector jobs pay better, although with a negative tradeoff in other areas. I'd rather make $100K working a 40-hour week for Uncle Sam than $150K working a 70-hour week for Stab'em & Burn'em LLC. Plus, it's a treadmill. Everyone can handle the hours and pressure for a short sprint but working in big law (assuming that you're a lifer) is a marathon. Who f*ckin' needs that?

An attorney once said that there is more promotion potential in the private sector than in the government, as getting promoted beyond a certain grade entails certain political considerations. However, I assume this person was a moron. To date, I am unaware of a law firm in which a promotion into partnership does not involve office politics or in which promotion is a given if you just put in the time.

- Poster formerly known as #26.

47, your attitude is a stumbling block that many of us face. I'm top 10% at a good (T25 but not T14) school. I spent my first summer working for a nonprofit, and I enjoyed the work. I went to a firm my second summer that did the same kind of work (on the other side), and I figured out pretty quickly that the firm life wasn't for me. I have an offer from my 2L firm, but I would rather work in government. The fact that I have not worked in government seems to be a deal-breaker. Why? I've done informational interviewing. I know what practice for the government is like. That's what I want to do. But there seems to be a stigma about people without government experience.

FYI, the SEC in Atlanta has two enforcement attorney vacancies and is currently accepting applications from attorneys with securities law experience. Pay scale is better than GS...these will start at just over $100k DOE. I'm with SEC Chicago and earn nearly $150k after five years or so. Good luck to those considering fed govt work.

52 - I was Navy. Loved it. Between all the military branches, unless you want to be hardcore military (then go USMC), Navy is hands down the best.

I went on subs, observed flight ops on a carrier deck, travelled the world, tried felony-level cases (attempted murder, 6-figure larcenies, various classified matters, etc), and instead of asshole coworkers competing with me for a partner spot, I made awesome friends that I still keep in touch with.

Plus, the Navy JAG program is now trying to make it so everyone can take a break from regular legal duty to go get an LLM or a Masters. Entirely free, of course. Several of my friends have taken advantage of this. They get paid a FULL salary to spend a year at UVA, Harvard, Gtown, or wherever, getting their degree and they have a job guaranteed waiting for them when they're done. Can you imagine getting paid about 100k to GO TO SCHOOL? I only left the corps because of specific career goals. I still love the Navy.

Oh yeah, and our intermural sports teams are straight up ridiculous.

Speaking of the SEC, anyone know the deal on thier honors program. Has it not opened yet?

47 - Sorry, but I'm not buying the whole "we're only interested in people who demonstrate a commitment to public service" - at least, not for government as a whole. I went to a big firm, for reasons which many have covered above, but to ensure that I could demonstrate commitment to public service, I did 2 unpaid internships my 1L summer with non-profits and split my 2L summer between the firm and the government. I'm now being beat out for positions by partners who have been in private practice for 10, 15, or more years and have little, if any, public sector experience. I can certainly understand the government's desire to take the most qualified candidate, but clearly, a demonstrated interest in public service is not a key factor for at least some agencies (and I'm not referring to the ones who deal with financial matters either).

56: 52 here. I once considered USMC JAG, but realized right then and there that I wasn't hardcore enough for that. To be quite honest, I don't think I could make it through TBS.

I may try to work out a Navy rotation within the PMF program to see what the environment is like. It wouldn't be JAG since I'm civilian, but I'd probably get to meet a few.

Lets face it the recession has been a relative boon for hipster public interest lawyers. All of my friends who got jobs in policy, government, NGO's, or international orgs were almost pitied by the fratastic biglaw lemmings. Now these same trolls are the ones adding the public interest people on linkedin and wanting to get "drinks" in some pathetic attempt to break into public interest work. Well I have bad news for this sorry lot because if your resume stinks from nothing but corporate whoredom then you can just about forget about any chance with most public interest organizations.

41, 54 --

Your biggest stumbling block probably isn't the lack of government experience on your resume or proving you really want it. It's the fact that you go to a top 5 or top 25 school.

A lot of the lawyers in government agencies (with the exception of DOJ and US Attorneys' offices) came from lower ranked schools (especially D.C. area schools like Catholic, American, and Mason). They probably did really well there but were never given any consideration by Biglaw. Some of them seem to have a chip on their shoulder and don't like hiring people from top ranked schools.

At least that was my experience and my friends' experience a few years ago (top 10 school, probably top third of class). We never had trouble getting Biglaw jobs but getting into government was pretty tough. I ended up in Biglaw, worked on some matters involving the same agencies I had applied to in law school, and it was a joke seeing some of the people they actually ended up hiring (not saying they had to hire me, maybe I did a horrible interview or something and never realized it, but there had to have been better people out there than the ones they hired).

Anyway, just try really hard not to sound elitist in your interviews. Not everyone in government has that attitude (in my experience the older government attorneys who've been around for a while actually want people from higher ranked schools), so hopefully it'll work out for you.

@ 58. I agree with you, kind of. I think it's just recruitment human resource code.

I went government at the end of 2004 from a law firm. I was warned before the interview that I really needed to convince them that I was in it for "the quality of life" or "the public service" aspect. They warned me that HR was skeptical that I'd come for some experience, drain their training resources and then bail. The PTO's mindset is that it takes about 18 - 24 months of employment before they break even on their training investment.

I think "we're only interested in people who demonstrate a commitment to public service" might be in same vein. If some Harvard law grad says that he wants to work in the civil service, you have to figure out whether he's actually going to stick it out and whether you'll get some return on your investment, or whether he's just looking for a temporary bolthole to ride out the recession.

56 - How many years were you in? I was in the AFJAG Corps for 4 years and had a similarly awesome experience. I was in the private sector for a while, hated it, and am now in the Fed Govt. You stay in the reserves?

The older I get, the fewer Clerks quotes I come across. It's a shame, really. That was maybe the most quotable movie ever.

61: I wholeheartedly disagree. Part of getting into Govt is being able to stick it out through the hiring process. Things just take longer here, including the hiring cycle. Plus, you're not getting interviewed if you're not someone they'd consider hiring. So if you're landing government interviews but not getting the offers, it might very well be a reflection of you, and not backlash about going to a top school.

I have colleagues all over the place in the government that went to top schools. I personally went to one of the schools you named (Catholic) and can tell you there is a good mix. I personally feel I got very lucky to get a government offer, because a lot of my classmates who got Fed offers were also the ones getting biglaw offers. I didn't have the latter option.

Not to get way off topic, but Catholic's OCI definitely places its share of people in biglaw. Definitely not the number that Georgetown would, but the school does get recruited. Generally, it's the top15-20%. Not quite a TTT cesspool.

And before you ask, I would definitely think more of someone who went to a Top 14 as opposed to a Top 100 when I hire. All else equal, there is no chip on my shoulder. Getting into a top school requires dedication and hard work, and that does say a lot about a candidate.

Are we talking about competition generally for federal government positions, or just for 2Ls and 3Ls to get internships and entry level positions? Regarding the former, that should come as no surprise since biglaw isn't hiring, and regarding the latter, even in the boom times the government didn't hire a lot of entry level attorneys and honors programs were competitive. I'm curious - what is the experience like for midlevel and senior associates trying to get government jobs?

58- At what level were you trying to break in that you were competing against biglaw partners? Certainly not entry level government, I hope. Because yes at the upper management levels where hiring becomes more political they do become impressed by biglaw prestige (and campaign $$$) again.

63 - I was in for about the same amount of time as you. Hell, we probably either know each other or are separated by 2 degrees. I'm fed gov't too. And ya, being a JAG helped out a lot when I was looking to get out and find a job. Within the gov't, outside of DOJ, I don't know of a better foot in the door.

As for the reserves, holy crap it is fubar compared to active duty. I don't know if it's the economy or poor management or some kind of good ol' boys network, but man, it's nothing like active duty!

How is it on the AF side? Any better? I suppose I could destroy all sense of my humanity and morals and apply for USA, USAF, or USCG reserve billets...but I'd like to think I could get something in USN.

And I'm just (half) kidding. I respect all service branches, but you know we gotta make fun of each other. I think it might even be required in the UCMJ under Article 92...haha

65 - I'm not 61, but I think your statement about how "if you're getting government interviews, but not offers, it's a reflection of you" is somewhat unfair. Unlike firms, agencies can only hire as many people as they have open spots for. If a large firm needs only one person, but they have two or three really terrific candidates, they will usually find a way to bring on at least two of those candidates (in normal economic times, of course). If an agency has two or three really terrific candidates, they can usually bring on only one, no matter how much they like the other two. And those applicants may not have any control over the deciding factor, especially if it's an inside connection, the hired candidate had a very specific, valuable experience, etc.

Now I'm not saying that if you have gone on a bunch of interviews and don't have an offer, you shouldn't take a look at what might be going wrong. But, like you said, it's a long process, especially in this economy, and I know multiple people who had to try multiple times to land a position. I even know someone who interviewed for the same position with the same agency 3 times before he got it. So I don't believe it's entirely correct to suggest that not yet landing a federal job must mean that it's a negative reflection upon you. Many agencies see a lot of qualified people and sometimes it's just a matter of being in the right place, at the right time, with the right candidate pool. Unfortunately, in this kind of economy, it can be even more difficult because if an agency places an ad for an attorney with 6 years, 5 months, and 2 days of experience and has a pink unicorn horn sticking out of his/her head, they can probably find someone that fits that description exactly.

And for the record, there are attorneys in federal government that don't like attorneys who come from top schools. They also exist in private practice - I know several T3 and T4 alums who automatically assume that everyone who comes from HYS is lazy, didn't work hard in law school, just lucky, etc. Let's face it - this is a profession where almost everyone likes to resent someone else for some reason or another.

67 - I've got about 5 years of experience and I've applied for positions where they advertised wanting at least 1-6 years of experience. Definitely not upper management level positions (or GS-15 or SES positions). It's just a dog eat dog world right now, and people are willing to take huge salary cuts just to have a position.

- 58

61 - it's probably exactly that attitude ("try REALLY hard not to sound elitist," "chip on their shoulder" etc) that caused these government hiring managers to see right through you. maybe the people you "couldn't believe they hired" had more to offer than their school ranking. like self-awareness.

65: This is 69 responding. I think what you've stated is extremely fair given the current job market. However, that doesn't address the overall tone of 61's message.

#61 just can't fathom that one's elite education can't land him or her the federal job, and it's one's elite credentials that put him so over the top as to generate resentment.

Here is the general problem that I see in law students as a whole, not just those from top schools:

Living in a bubble. Most law students went from undergrad to law school, and now claim to know the ins and outs of forming a meaningful career.

Believing their academic credentials can overcome any hiring obstacle; or, put another way, qualify them for the Federal job that is otherwise "beneath" their educational elite status.

A former Big Law or HYS student can go about this in two ways. One of them involves saying something to the effect of, "Well, I worked/attended at so-and-so, so I can definitely do this [Federal] job." The other is to say, "Well, I worked at so-and-so firm, and worked across from opposing counsel at [your agency]. This exposure to your challenges is what brings me here today, and I look forward to leveraging my experience at [big firm] and education from [HYS] to help solve some of this."

One makes the candidate an elitist ass who is trying to say that they'd be doing the hiring manager a favor by coming on board, and the other says that the experience at big law/top law school has given him or her exposure to the agency's work, the tools to help out, and is motivated to apply that experience to further the mission. Guess which one gets hired?

Look, if you've gone from undergrad to law school and are now looking for your FIRST job, acknowledge that you have a lot to learn, because I promise you, you do. Being a good student isn't even a great indicator of being a good professional, it's just a hedge for us. In the same vein, if you've spent a couple of years out of law school in big law and have myopically practiced in a certain area, acknowledge that your horizons could stand to broaden.

Government work is a lot different. At the end of the day, if you don't come with a proven track record of individual wins and responsibility, having walked the tight rope without a safety net, so to speak, then you better be willing to acknowledge it. You know there are gaps, the hiring manager knows there are gaps, and the best candidate is the one that is willing to stretch to fill those gaps. Your credentials got you the interview, but your character and demeanor close the deal. Just like in big law.

72 - thanks for saying it better.
- 71

If you're really into government work there is always state work. State AG, County Counsel, DA, PD, Public Works... I probably get 2-3 emails a week for Staff Attorney Exam Openings in the California Civil Service. If I was still looking I probably would be there right now actually.

72: 69 here. I respect what you're saying and I'm sure you know much more about government hiring than I do, but in my experience, it's a bit difficult to walk the line between "I have experience that will benefit the agency" and "I can definitely learn a lot in this job." Lean just a bit too far in one direction, and depending on the individual attorney's perception of big firm attorneys, you can be out of the ballgame entirely. I wish I could give specific examples, but I don't want to out myself. I also feel that the times I have acknowledged that I have not yet "walked the tightrope without safety net" only caused the attorneys to think I would not be able to handle the job, even when I specifically state the steps I have taken in practice to ensure that one day I could handle the job (i.e., "No, I have not yet had the opportunity to handle a multimillion dollar case from start to finish; however I had significant responsibility with little oversight on these aspects of cases and I have handled pro bono litigation matters entirely on my own").

I agree that an elitist attitude will get you nowhere and government work is not "beneath" firm work at all. But I do think that in some respects, interviewing for the government after coming from a big firm, can be much trickier than interviewing with firms. I don't think it's as simple as having a good character and demeanor to close the deal.

75: 72 responding. I said I was 69 in the last post, my mistake, I was responding to that. Scrolling up, I was 65, not 69.

I agree with what you've said, but that's sort of typical everywhere. There are just a surprising number of mediocre hiring managers, whether in law or not, and government or private practice. I empathize with that situation, because there is just no good way to know the interviewer's professional values beforehand. In that regard, there's little to guide whether you want to lean too far in either direction, as you put it.

I will say this, though. I was able to secure a government position, but I admit that big law was simply not interested in even talking to me at OCI. While I do really like my government job, I would've liked to at least had big law as an option to make a few extra bucks for a couple of years. I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

I do admit, a lot of it is timing, especially in law, but even in my prior career. I was a night student and had a pretty solid record in what I used to do, and even switching firms there was often a matter of luck with the interviewer and timing. Of my message in #72, though, there are just certain things that will at least put you in the ballpark. In any profession, and I've had two or three now, elitism is never appreciated.

I do hope to eventually crack big law and do a couple of years there, though, if I can get an interview. The nice thing about the Fed govt is that in many cases, you can leave and convert back with less red tape if its within a certain timeframe. I think it's two years or so.

Elie seems to like that people are struggling and suffering in this economy. His word choice in a lot of his pieces reveal that (in this one "Hustle, people. Hustle.") He should cut out the bad attitude. He thinks the terrible economy can't effect him too?

Supposedly there are 1000 applications for every position available at the IRS Chief Counsel. At those odds, it's a crapshoot.

agreed, 77. that's just a miserable way for a person to be... same with all of you who act happy about people suffering

76 - 75//69 again. I do think grass is definitely always greener. Believe me, I am kicking myself right now for: (a) not going to government straight out of school and (b) not applying for every relevant government job when the economy is still good. But if you still really want biglaw, and you have a relevant practice area and are making connections, you'll probably eventually get it. In law school, I completely bought the story that if you didn't do biglaw straight away, you were pretty much screwed for ever doing it. Then when I entered my firm (V50), I was amazed at some of the career paths many of the partners had taken. Basically, anything went as long as you were good at what you did.

78 - Trust me, there is probably a huge portion of applicants that aren't remotely qualified and are throwing applications in for every open attorney position. I heard the same numbers for most of the government positions I applied for, but still have managed to secure interviews when the position is in my practice area and my KSAs demonstrate good experience in that area.

If you're still a law student, just make sure your resume shows all relevant experience, classes, organizations, etc.

23, but they don't. Although Cornell is not a top law school, the students from Moritz law school are now clamoring to get work as janitors.

81: I will add, well written, tailored KSAs are an absolute must with government work. If you took the time to actually read them, write out a response using a lot of the same keywords in the KSA, and then polished it up, you did more than the average applicant.

In government, the first reviewer is rarely a legal specialist in any way. It's an HR generalist who is checking conformity with requirements and reading the KSAs to make sure they're reflecting what was actually asked.

A lot of you guys have court experience and know that judges are at least partially about form and local rules. Think of all of government that way and you'll do a little better. Do exactly what is asked on the application, as it's above and beyond a simple cover letter and resume.

Listen to #81.

"30: you sound like a complete asshat. Were you hoping that these "kids" at a "Top 10 school" would fawn over you or service you or something? Also, you claim that these "kids" did not conduct extensive research prior to interviewing, but you work for a "federal entity." It is not like federal entities have good webpages that explain exactly what it is first year attorneys will be doing. Might it be reasonable that the students have questions? Further, many federal entities do on-campus informational interviews only and encourage students to apply to the entity through a website. Students are aware of this, which leads them to not expect much and do only minimal preparation when interviewing with federal entities. Finally, I was not aware that there were "requirements" for positions with federal entities. You are aware that the Justice Department and many federal entities have been staffed with Monica Goodling/Regent University/145 LSAT types in recent years, aren't you? "

By no means did I expect fawning, What I did expect was some basic, and I mean basic research. My organization made plenty of materials available to the career office, and our website contains a ton of user-friendly information. Also, while there are some random, obscure fed jobs that are that are admitteldy a mystery and don't do a good job of communicating specifics, my organization is quite well known, is routinely in the news, etc.

I even held a brown bag event the day before the interviews themselves. I contacted everyone on my schedule individually to let them know of the event. I stressed that the brown bag event's purpose was to provide overview information so that our actual interviews could be more about them and less about me. 1 person out of the 9 on the interview list showed up.

I also made it clear in emails to every person on the interview list early on that this was not an informational interview.

Nonetheless, I was surprised at how many people came with no resumes or resumes not yet updated with their summer 2009 experience.

OMFG,
If the chuckle brothers don't stop reminiscing about how great military lawyers are I'm going to throw the fu*k up. I'm sure like all jobs it has its perks, but if it was so f-ing fantastic why did both men quit? Exactly, it's not that great, that's why.

And before i get called an American traitor, please note that I'm an equal opportunity hater. I also hate it when people wax about how great biglaw is, it's not, get over it. Everything has perks and drawbacks, but essentially everything is lame, which is why it's called WORK and not PLEASURE. Talk up blowjobs, cotton candy, hot wings, and sports....now those are pleasurable topics of discussion worth reminiscing about.

Carry on.

85, BJs and cotton candy are nice.

Agree with 85. The Air Force and Navy are gay for eachother. Their "deployments" last three months, and they likely weren't in Iraq or Afghanistan. They piggyback on the goodwill engendered by the Army and Marine Corps.

- Army lawyer who thinks the JAG Corps isn't for everyone and is certainly not as great as the AF and Navy make it out to be.

87 - Navy deployments are a minimum of 6-12 months and have never been 3.

Sorry your job sucks.

88 - I don't think that's true. But you left out the part where you mentioned that virtually all Navy deployments aren't to Iraq or Afghanistan. Of course, that's certainly a reason to join for some.

89 - I don't know where you get your information from.

The majority of Navy deployments ARE Iraq or Afghanistan. A small number deploy to the Horn of Africa. I know this for a fact because I've viewed numerous downwind billet lists. I don't know what they're called outside the Navy, but basically, it's the list of IA openings for the upcoming FY.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I think you are confusing IA deployments with sea duty-something entirely different.

As far as deployments being a reason to join or not join, right now it's volunteer-based because people know that while they don't have to go, it's almost mandatory to promote. Roughly 70-80% of my Justice School class did an IA in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

More senior officers also go because they've been known to "recover" from seemingly terminal O-4 or O-5 situations. I've seen this happen.