Maybe it's just that stupid people pick CJ as a major.

When pressed, I usually tell staff members to major in getting a box and cleaning out their desk by noon.

Elie should've majored in English.

You are mixing up cause and effect.

I'm with 2; also, physics and math are probably most like the practice of law - get rule, apply it backwards and forwards.

I've heard that Physics majors have the easiest time getting in to law school. I suspect we may have discovered why.

English major with 172 here!

The fact that you could write this post without even considering the fallacy of ignoring a common cause is astounding. I am in awe.

2 has a point. You generally find majors like criminal justice, business administration, or health professions (as opposed to a specific, real health profession like nursing or pre-med) at TTT's like DeVry. Also, math and the ability to put things into a logical order is seriously undervalued on the LSAT and in law generally.

Philosophy/Theology are considered "difficult majors," that's a bunch of BS.

I think causation goes both ways. But the primary way is probably the opposite of what Elie mentioned:

There's a selection effect. You have to be pretty sharp to graduate with a degree in physics or engineering. You can't bullshit equations like you can a paper (at least, not at the undergraduate level).

My friends who were engineers and are now lawyers have also told me that they were trained in the granular thinking that is so useful on the LSAT (i.e., they're good at breaking chains of casuation down into individual links). I remember from my LSAT prep reading that physics/math types have a pronounced advantage at the games, since many of them can be broken down mathematically.

Nothing surprising here. The Logic section of the LSAT is what seems to trouble most people and individuals interested in math and engineering generally have more training/ability in that area.

Anthro/socio major here with 178.

Not surprising at all. The LSAT doesn't require a bit of subject matter knowledge as far as the law or court system. Whether the LSAT score correlates to success as a lawyer - I'm sure reams have been written on that already. Getting a high score means you can digest dense reading passages, do some logic, and figure out complex situations and that's about it.

I agree this is a causation/correlation mix up. People who pick those majors are not necessarily academic superstars.

I didn't realize that criminal justice was even offered as a major by an acredited 4-year college. Only losers at tech institutes get criminal justice degrees, not those who are worthy of BigLaw.

100% related to only TTTs having those degree programs

and yet 14 does not understand that the average scores are simply AVERAGES and therefore thinking about "exceptions" is pointless (unless your point is to show off)

I think people are being a little quick to judge criminal justice majors as defacto stupid, though I see the point 2 (and others) are making.
--Elie

Majored in Criminal Justice with a minor in Elementary Ed., got a 183.

Once again Elie misses the mark worse than Michael Bay missed the mark with Pearl Harbor.

Criminal Justice major here with a 183, though I doubled in prelaw, which explains my success.

I assume 21 knows that the highest LSAT score is 180 and is just be sarcastic.

It makes sense, as a whole the majors that do well require more work, ergo the people who have those majors already work harder and when it comes to LSAT prep time put in more hours to learn the logic games system etc.

Ellie please comment on Future Ellie!

I assume 21 knows that the maximum LSAT score is 180 and is just being sarcastic.

i think the finer points of my basketweaving major were key on the logic games section of my LSAT.

Cause and effect fail. Omitted variable bias fail.

Ivy league universities and top liberal arts colleges, whose students are quite good at standardized tests, do not have professional majors (education, business administration, criminal justice etc.), they have liberal arts majors (Philosophy, IR, econ).

Also, I doubt that choosing these majors actually helped anyone do well on the LSAT so much as the natural intelligence and analytical skills that led them to choose the major did.

173/English. Math/Science and related fields give you the jump on logic games, pure liberal arts majors that make you read and write a lot give you speed on the reading section. Any non-retard should have no problem with the logical thinking section.

2 = racist.

This is exactly the mindset of your typical affirmative action liberal.

11 - it depends on the school. Philosophy can be one of the most rigorous liberal arts majors or just spewing stuff. Theology can be very rigorous (reading fluency in two ancient languages plus interpreting texts for someone who knows them like the back of his hand) or just memorizing what you're told.

How is 2 a racist? Do only individuals from certain races pick CJ as a major? I thought it was open to idiots of every ethnicity.

It's well known that education majors are the dumbest of the dumb who show up at college. Look at average SATs and you'll see a nice freefall from engineering through liberal arts and natural sciences down to... education college.

Physics major who rocked a 180. w00t!

Criminal Justice as a major is generally only available at craptastic schools. Name an Ivy or other top school that offers it...

31 = racist for assuming that 2 had race in mind.

Can we please hear more from people who scored above 170 on the LSATs?!?!?! Please?!?!?! Tell us what your majors were and how you think your major turned your brain into an LSAT-killing machine!!!

37. Wrong. Here's an Ivy with a CJ program.

http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/BachelorinCriminalJustice.shtml

me: Art major, 168

Correlation does not equal causation.

Mystal seems to be implying that college education in a particular major will overcome pre-existing appetite.

For example? Mystal went to Harvard law school. He doesn't seem up to the caliber usually associated with Harvard law students.

37- Answer: Univ. of Phoenix, Walden, ITT, and Virginia College. Get a top flight Criminal Justice degree at home in less than a year!

did they change the scoring of the LSAT? When I took it 180 was the max.

In addition to the point that criminal justice and pre-law may not be majors at top undergraduate schools (i.e., students likely to have higher scores might more often attend colleges where those majors aren't offered), there may also be another self-selection issue.

The universe of undergraduates who have majored in pre-law and criminal justice are likely to take the LSAT and go to law school no matter what. Students in hard sciences/math/economics don't necessarily take the LSAT and go to law school. The universe of students with majors carrying the highest average LSAT scores may be, on average, stronger than the universe of students with other majors (for a number of reasons), but the subset of students majoring in hard sciences/math/economics that takes the LSAT is probably, on average, more likely to do better than the average student in the larger pool. (As opposed to criminal justice and pre-law, where the subset of students that takes the LSAT is probably almost the entire universe of students majoring in those fields.)

International relations isn't exactly rocket science either.

No cause and effect here. My CJ major = scholarship to T10, Order of the Coif, Circuit Clerk, Vault 15. I doubt I would have done any better if I were a math or science major.

Criminal Justice majors to 180!!!

Since when was Penn State an Ivy?

Are you thinking about the University of Pennsylvania?

Lord.

http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2009/03/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major.html

Good schools do not offer majors like prelaw and criminal justice.

Everyone I knew who was in pre-law was an idiot.

23 = fail

LSAT 172. Econ and PoliSci double major.

It's analysis in articles like this that lead me to believe that Elie has the LSAT of a Criminal Justice major.

49, that is pretty interesting (and also interesting that my anthro major--social sciences--scores that high. Maybe it is all the anticipated Hegel and Weber reading), but I think LSAT performance has more to do with logic skills than intelligence. I know lots of brilliant folks who are utter space cadets when it comes to logic.

I find that physicists generally make the best lawyers.

Sound test design by the LSAT people.

48 - Is there a difference between Penn. State and the University of Pennsylvania? I thought they were the same school, just with different campuses.

Underwater Basket Weaving major, 200 LSAT. I got a 200 because I was accepted into Exeter two years early, and that counts as extra credit on future test scores. I work for a specialized corporate boutique, whose name I won't mention, and made $10 million as a first year associate, plus a 400% bonus. They were so impressed with me that they made me managing partner and sole equity holder. I mostly work out of my summer home on Fisher's Island, NY, or out of my car - a Veyron specially made out of gold, moon rocks, and orphan's foreskins. I am better than anyone, ever.

- anonymous internet poster

I doubt it too, 46! You're just as awesome as can be!

I scored a 163 on the LSAT, and I majored in Government at Harvard (did I mention I graduated from Harvard? Twice.) I'm just great at takig tests. For whatever reason, I excelled at certain things oin my life like a fish taking to water: Tests, dressing, cooking, and getting into Harvard (I went to Harvard). When I got the 163 score back from LSAC, I knew my life was going to be smooth sailings. Every school would want me, but most notably, Harvard.

It all fell apart though when I let my inner black rage that was forged in the adversity of an upper middle class Long Island childhood take me down a path to blowing the one thing that my seven straight years of Ivy LEague education prepared me for: Writing 800 words a day on an internet gossip website. I blew it, guys. Sky high LSAT score, ad two Harvard degrees (I attended Harvard) notwithstanding, I blew it.

But Present-Day Elie can save us both from the future that awaits him. I look to you, Present-Day Elie, as our salvation.

48, you are obviously an idiot.

Everyone knows that U Penn State is the TTT of the Ivys. Although West Philadelphia campus is a shithole, it's nothing compared to the eternal wastelands that are State College and Harrisburg campuses.

U Penn State to Cow Tipping!

48 -

You are a huge tool.

- Penn alum in on the joke

48 -- Penn State is a public institution of the Commonwealth of PA.

The University of Pennsylvania is in Philadelphia, is one of the oldest universities in the U.S. (predating the establishment of the public university system in the 1860's), and is considered by most to be an Ivy. Some would dispute its Ivy status, but that's a debate I'm not getting into.

57 -- Penn State is a public institution of the Commonwealth of PA.

The University of Pennsylvania is in Philadelphia, is one of the oldest universities in the U.S. (predating the establishment of the public university system in the 1860's), and is considered by most to be an Ivy. Some would dispute its Ivy status, but that's a debate I'm not getting into.

48 -- You made my day. It's what every internet troll hopes for, a sincere response to an obvious troll.

~39

Philosophy major, 180. The whole major/field of study, if you're at a top program and the focus is on analytic philosophy, is comprised of logic, reasoning, analytic thinking, and argumentation -- i.e., the same skills that are tested on the LSAT (and, for the most part, in law school).

58 is the best comment I've read this week.

Is criminal justice even offered at non-TTTs?

Please, Penn State and U Penn are the exact same institution by different names. Attempts to distinguish them have always failed, and will continue to do so.

68, no. Nor is "pre-law."

48 - nice trolling. You had quite a haul.

Double major in air conditioning AND heating from DeVry. Rocked a 79 on the LSAT, got a full ride to DeVry Law, and summered at an AmLaw500 firm (as a paralegal)!

63/64 UPenn also has law school campuses in Carlisle and State College, not just in Philly.

As a philosophy major, the slim chances of making big bucks as a philosopher motivated me to study hard for the LSAT.

Communications major to 165!

Majored in rocket science, rocked a 190 on the LSAT and got a full-ride plus guarantee of tenure at Princeton Law. After clerking for the High Supreme Constitutional Court, I immediately was offered chairship of Wachtell, Cravath, Sullivan, Skadden and Kirkland, LLP.

Future Ellie=my new favorite poster.

The logic is terribly flawed. The people who dream of being lawyers, but aren't cut out for the profession don't evaluate the major decision very well. They think, oh I want to go to law school, so I should go with a pre-law major. (I admittedly am one of those fools - Political-Science - oh mistakes of youth). Anyhow, because that major has a higher concentration of people who just want to be lawyers and go with the default, I think there is a strong correlation between those people and less intelligence. (Not pulling any punches today). Compare that to the hard-science people who are just plain smart, but then decide law school is for them. They take the LSAT, and they crush it. Why? Because the LSAT is not an analytical test - it's true. It is a standardized test. And because it is standardized, there are rules and patterns to the questions and answers that can be broken. My LSAT practice tests got better only because I started recognizing the same exact question with different names or characters filling relevant positions. Hard-science students handle that stuff particularly well.

Political-science/Prelaw major who got a 168 on the LSAT

77:

Me too. I'd like to hear from Future Kash to find out if I ever got to nail her or not.

I don't think we're making fun of business majors enough.

People who choose criminal justice as a major typically want to become police officers. Having been an officer, thankfully no longer, and now an attorney, I can say from first hand experience that the intelligence of that lot is slightly above that of Neanderthal. The reason that criminals are caught is because they are even more stupid than the police.

I got a 179.7 - they took .3 away from me because I didn't have "the credential."

Not surprised to see Philosophy tied for second. I got a degree in Philosophy and I know it helped me on the LSAT as well as in law school. Of course, I knew I was going to law school so I took every logic course I could. I don't know if it makes you a better lawyer but it makes you a better law student!

G-Zuss, Elie!

If this study was the basis for an LSAT logical reasoning question, the answer would be obvious:

"(c.) "Criminal Justice" is not a real major, and is only offered at vocational/remedial diploma mills to idiot cops that take the LSAT because they actually aspire to emulate the dirtbag prosecutors who cover up their unconstitutional abuses."

--173, full ride scholarship to T5, smalllaw

U Penn State Law (Carlise & West Philadelphia Campuses) provided my humor for the day.

Pole dancing major here. 177!

Is the lack of logical reasoning in this post supposed to be ironic?

Guys in my high school used to major in CJ and score well below average on the LSAT...It was no big deal.

88 - I learned from my days on the staff of the Columbia Law Review that you should only replace words that not relevant to your quote with an elipsis. In your quote, the words "all the time" that you removed are not irrelevant, instead, they are an important part of the meme. Please don't make similar mistakes in the future.

~Colum. L. Rev. 3L

Um, if you hit ANY of those averages, are you going to "law school" in the first place

Note: a TTT is NOT a law school, it is a TTT that offers a JD.

While it's true correlation =/= causation, if you didn't learn anything useful in college, you were doing it wrong.

- Economics/175

Criminal Justice Major here- 149 LSAT
Went to T4 school, finished number 3 in class first year and transferred top 50 school. Graduated 2009, got a job.

FUCK THE LSAT HAHAHAHAH GREAT PREDICTOR OF FUTURE LAW SCHOOL SUCCESS HUH

P.S. CJ was a great major for being a law student. I was leaps and bounds ahead of my peers in:
1. Briefing cases
2. Crim Pro
3. Crim Law
4. A little bit of Con law

Go CJ!

89 - I learned from the days fucking your mom that you shouldn't be a giant grammar douche for a memo on a fucking Legal Tabloid. Please don't make similar mistakes in the future.

~ U. Penn. St. L. Rev. 3L, Night School Division.

89 = funny

93 = EPIC FAIL

92 = Sigh.

Funny, 77. I thought the Future Elie thing was funny conceptually when it first appeared but it's since turned into the same tired racist/anti-affirmative action rant that characterizes all of the Fed Soc-aligned posts on this blog.

The advisor for our prelaw major actively advised people to get a different major, on the theory that law schools looked down on it.

For the people who asked about over 170s -
I'm a 173, majored in government and history, concentrating on the Constitution (i.e., I probably took five or six conlaw courses).

It definitely eased the transition to law school, as I had some idea of what was going on earlier than others. I don't think it helped me any more than other heavy-reading majors for the LSAT. I went to a middle-tier state school for undergrad, so I could gloss over details there in a way I couldn't on the LSAT or in law school (i.e., ignoring obvious counterarguments or not proving small logical steps). I guess if you didn't know you were doing that, and just got away with it, it would hurt you on net.

people who think correlation equals causation should be worried about proposals to tax stupidity

Surprised to see International Relations so high on the list. What a bullshit major.

While many English majors pursue law, some of us venture into non-traditional career paths. Besides I wouldn't take well to the logic section of the LSAT, I don't like playing games for too long.

Doing well on the LSAT (as well as any standardized test) is more about how many video games you play then your major. You can apply game theory to any standardized test to determine the answer the questioner is using to mislead you and the correct answer. Most of the top majors in the study (Engineering, Math, Physics) are those that base grades on 2 maybe 3 tests over the semester. What do those majors do the rest of the semester when they are not studying? They are playing video games and increasing their score on the LSAT. However, Criminal Justice, Education, and Business Administration majors are working on all the stupid busy work assignments throughout the semester and can't play as many video games. Now, if only I had gotten the high score it would be my initials on the top of the exam and not LSAT's.

The only schools that I know of that actually have a CJ major are community colleges. Even the TTT state schools don't have that major.

I went straight for my double PHD in Quantitative Philosophy and Theoretical Particle Economics (i.e. applying theoretical particle physics to economics). My LSAT score transcended your plane of existence; and it would be impossible for me to even explain that to you peons in a way that you would even have a chance of appreciating on even the most superficial level. I dropped out of YLS during the first week after realizing how our entire system of social organization, all law professors, and our infantile laws are crap and am now working on developing my own society with other super humans, which will undoubtedly overtake your society from within in only a few years.

Our new country will be called Douchevania and unless you got a 179 or higher on the LSAT and had a top three major, you will be deported. The sole exception will be for Partner Emeritus.

This is a stupid study. Math/Physics majors score better on the LSAT because they are smarter than the CJ and General Business majors, not because of the course of study. Just about anyone can get a degree in CJ, General Business, Prelaw, ect.., but very few can graduate with a Physics degree.

There's nothing about studying education, business, and criminal justice that makes you perform worse on the LSAT (though they are TTT majors that you would only study if your stuck at a state school). It just happens that people who major in those areas are really stupid.

157 LSAT score.....crap I know.
Graduated cum laude at Maryland... top 20%.

50/253 students.....

Many of these logic games wizzes cannot write to save their lives.

1-100: Y'all be niggers posting in a troll thread.

I know that UPenn in State College has a criminal justice major because my cousin went there. He got his grad degree at the Warden School and is now assistant deputy warden at a state penitentiary in Pine Grove, PA. He thought about law school and probably could have gotten into Dickinson, but didn't want to pay for an Ivy League school.

Generally speaking, good undergraduate schools to not have Prelaw or Criminal Justice majors. Smarter people, on average, go to good undergraduate schools. Hence, they are precluded from majoring in these joke subjects.

Also, people who really like logic tend to end up as a philosophy, physics, math or econ major. Logic is really useful for the LSAT.

93 - I didn't have a mom. I was raised by two gay men. Perhaps you were being fucked by them? I know they liked a little 3-way action.

~89

What the fuck is prelaw? What is the point? Law schools do not have any prerequisites like med school, so I fail to see the point of this major. Perhaps it's really shitty undergrad schools fooling ingnorant students into thinking that they are a serious school by having a major called "pre-law."

Criminal Justice does exist at many great institutions. Speaking as to my knowledge of Ohio Institutions, CJ is offered at Ohio State, Ohio Univ, Univ of Cincinnati, Kent State, and Akron (in addition to other smaller schools).

CJ is an important major in our country. CJ graduates, particularly ones who enter CJ graduate programs have completed such assignments as racial profiling studies, safety issues in the correctional system, criminology (study of criminals not crime), post-release control, and crime prevention. The list goes on and on.

You can slam CJ majors because of this report or because of its reputation, but if you enjoy advances in crime prevention and general safety, you should thank those folks who dedicate themselves to the CJ profession.

CJ Grad and Law Student Grad (lawyer pending bar results)

110 -

As much as I bashed it as a major earlier - the point is basically to give people the skills needed to be a decent lawyer when they come out. Having some working knowledge of the government, economics, accounting and criminal justice is fairly useful. Its useful because it makes learning some areas of law more accessible, and its especially useful if you're not going to big law and can do more work without calling in an expert.

@ 58 did you get the foreskins from Tebow?

WTF is a "pre-law" major any way?

Econ/ International relations at a liberal arts college - 167 Lsat.

As a former aerospace engineering turned double Econ PoliSci major, I think the LSAT comes naturally to math and science majors because it's a reason-based test. Since math and science requires you to reason and work your way to an answer with a series of rules, people who major in those areas have been conditioned to think in the way the LSAT requires throughout college. I personally found the logic games absurdly easy, as they're essentially proofs with words.

I don't know that I would call CJ majors dumb as much as I would attribute their difficulty on the LSAT to a non-logic based major. They spend their entire college career not having to reason their way to any conclusion. It seems only natural they would struggle with a reason-based test. Same goes for pre-law majors.

Then again, maybe I'm just an optimist.

64: You do understand that the Ivy League is just an athletic conference, right? There's no "disputing" that Penn plays its football games against Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, Dartmouth and Brown.

I would dispute that Dartmouth plays football against Penn or anyone else. It's more of a regularly scheduled costume party.

#72 DeVry guy

Excellent thinking skills. Worthy of a J.D. That double major definitely will help you cover the bases. Though, i wonder what will happen during the Spring & the Fall.

I went to University of Phoenix and double majored in Halloween costumes and Christmas toys. one season leads right into the other. Sometimes, I even re-package former stocking stuffers into Easter basket stuffers. On my off season, I code docs. It was a rough road though. I got a scholarship to the University of Phoenix Law Center, but they aren't accredited, so I had to take a baby bar after 2L year AND a real bar after 3L.

@113 - I don't know where Bugatti got orphan foreskins from, and I don't care. All I care about is that I have to order special fuel from them that is equal parts blood from the Dalai Lama and trickle-down economic theory. Also, women involuntarily squirt orgasm water when I walk by them. As usual, I am the best ever.

- anonymous internet poster (58)

111 - You didn't name any "great institutions," even if half of the douches at Baker & Hostetler went to OSU. Nice try, though.

120 - pretty off-topic and unprovoked jab at the firm there - did they do something to you?

120 - To be fair, they no-offered our douches this year.

haven't seen any posts from Business majors, so I'm going to post

170 LSAT

Degree in Commerce, double-concentrated in Management and Information Technology

121 - No, nothing against them; it's actually not that bad of a place. Just picked an Ohio firm at random, and SSD and TH have been beat up a lot here over the past few months (deservedly). I'm an equal opportunity guy.

-- 120

What real school offers criminal justice as a major? Isn't that only offered by the University of Phoenix Online?

63 U Penn "is considered by most to be an Ivy. Some would dispute its Ivy status, but that's a debate I'm not getting into."

Most notably U Penn is considered to be an Ivy by wait for it,

the Ivy league.

U Penn is the only public Ivy. They play in the Big 10, unlike the other Ivy institutions, which play in the Ivy League.

I can't tell what there's more of in these comments: arrogance, or insecurity.

Probably both.

I got over 170 and I was a philosophy major. The ranking of those undergrad majors makes perfect sense to me. It's probably easier for a math major to do well on the reading comprehension section than it would be for a CJ major to do well on logic games.

UPenn and Penn State are the same school. Its just that when talking about the sports you say Penn State, and the school, you say UPenn, kinda like Cal and Berkley or U-Dub and Washington.

I would not have believed it, but Penn (not PSU) offers degrees in Criminology:

Criminology
Undergraduate | BA
Penn's strong tradition of multi-disciplinary graduate groups and institutes combines with its compact geography to create great potential for integrating teaching and research from different fields. Penn's 21st Century Ph.D. in criminology explores the frontiers between sociology and demography with medical, legal, neurological, genetic and psychological perspectives on crime and crime prevention.

I majur in comunikashins. I get a D on my LSAP.

117 - hilarious. I'm definitely repeating that joke someday

i think you guys have the cause and effect backwards.

it's not like an idiot decides to major in physics and becomes smarter. a smart person is the one likely to major in physics.

i know this post was supposed to be light but it sounds like Elie really can't get his head around it.

my thought on this is that the majority of criminal justice majors I have met are athletes looking for an easy major or morons who are looking to become cops. basically the baseline intelligence of a criminal justice major, i believe, is just low

I was a biology major with a minor in chemistry and a second major in Sociology. I did well on the LSAT and I am now a patent attorney. Hard science folks do better on the LSAT because we are trained to think critically. Data doesn't just reveal itself - it needs to be analyzed critcally. A CJ major, on the other hand, doesn't do much more than help a cop become a higher paid cop. The LSAT tests critical thinking.

Correlation is not causation, dipshits.

I am the only Art History major in my class at the Jon Jay Colledge of Criminal Nollege, and I got a 152, which I think was tops in my class. So suck that, butch. That is my secret weppon for getting out of this hellwhole and into the nivana known as T14 lawshcool.

i think the idea that a person who does well on the lsat is going to be a good lawyer is a bit ridiculous. my courtroom experience has made it quite clear to me that most everyone knows the correct solutions, but the successful lawyers know know how to relate to people and express themselves clearly and persuasively. logic is wonderful but people are often terribly illogical, and ultimately it is people make the decisions. what is a physicist to do when he has to explain a logical thought in illogical terms in order to get his point across? what happens when the answer to the equation is that his client is in the wrong, which quite frankly, is most of the time? i'd say he's probably proper f***ed. i'll take the english major.