FirsTTT

If you clerk then do DOJ do you have to pay your firm back for all the bar related expenses? I knew I shouldn't have taken that heavily taxed stipend!

why don't they just open a new law school for the unemployed lawyers to teach at?

The Honors Program is for indigent paupers. When I want to work for the DoJ I will have my father bundle cash for a presidential candidate and be appointed shortly after that following November.

How sad to see such a display of enthusiasm for a chance to crawl one's way to the middle of a bureacratic beast.

The only reason liberal applicants are welcome is that they are likley already well-versed in impotence and ineffectiveness.

If the SEC's recent failures have shown us anything, its that govenrment run legal operations are giant machineries, operated by pygmies, where the possible becomes the impossible.

Don't sell out your dreams kids...don't aspire to exist in a world where procedure is everything and outcome is nothing.

The DOJ Honors Program gave me some of the best years of my professional life.

Definitely look into it if you have the credentials.

Madoff was probably bribing high level SEC enforcement officials. Cash envelopes or other tough to trace goodies.

Lat, Elie, Kash or other: Is there a problem registering for ATL? I can sign up but the email for confirmation never arrives.

9 - Check your spam filter.

Most federal agencies have similar honors programs for graduating 3L's and clerks who have not passed a bar yet. You can find them through their websites section, usually under the Office of Counsel.

I heard they expect 8000 applications. There are what, 40-50k law grads per year?

You might as well not even try.

I think Presidential Management Fellows are also eligible to apply for the Attorney Honors programs.

I have a shitty GPA from a prestigious (T4) school. Which division(s) do I have a shot at?

9 -- so excited about his newly developed schtick that he can hardly wait. i'm sure your idea will change our lives.

If you clerk, then go big law, what are the chances of getting into DOJ later if it's something you want to do. Should one forego a big law opportunity to take DOJ now or is that foolish?

-3

16 - IMHO, it's foolish to pass up the DOJ for Biglaw if you can get DOJ. There are no assurances you will be able to go from Biglaw to DOJ, while Biglaw is almost always willing to hire from the DOJ (for Civil, Criminal, Antitrust, USAOs, and a few others, at least).

17 - "Biglaw is almost always willing to hire from the DOJ (for Civil, Criminal, Antitrust, USAOs, and a few others, at least)."

Depends on the market. In 2006-2007, definitely; today, not so much.

Any word about the rumors of the latest round of political hiring at DOJ? The word on the street is that DOJ is hiring almost exclusively through ACS networks, and is not ashamed to admit it.

Gah the AG honors program isn't going to hire me either!!

Does anyone have insight on ranking the sections? For example, I've heard that the Criminal Division will only consider those who list the Criminal Division as their first choice.

This year's honors program includes a job that is special assistant to the solicitor general. How do you think that stacks up with a Bristow Fellowship? Which is more prestigious, special assistant or Bristow?

5 wins. 6 does too.

16 - It's all luck of the draw. I know people who got into DOJ on their first try and others that have tried for 2 years now without success. The first time I tried, I got all the way through the first and second interviews, and then was beaten out by partners for the jobs - and that was in a good economy. Once you're trying to lateral in, there are a million factors besides just the interview to overcome - hiring freezes, people switching sections within DOJ and getting preference, other government employees getting preference over you, people returning to their section after an absence, etc. Personally, I would take DOJ over a firm if you can get it. If you even still want to work at a firm after 2 years at DOJ, you can lateral somewhat easily, provided that you are in a division that is valued by private practice.

Everyone's a winner at Nixon Peabody

It would be so much better if ATL didn't remind the entire world about these deadlines. If students want these opportunities badly enough they will search them out on their own. The students who lack the resourcefulness or ambition to find out about programs such as the AG's Honors Program shouldn't be given the benefit of a reminder.

this is such a boring post.

16 - Look at it this way. Although DOJ Honors is competitive, the competition is all between one (for the most part) graduating class of lawyers, and for a fairly large number of positions (by DOJ hiring standards).

The DOJ has a substantially smaller attorney attrition rate than is found in private practice. Accordingly, fewer positions become available for private practice laterals. Additionally, for each such position, usually current federal employees get first dibs. There are usually bonuses to those who served in the military, etc. Thus a private practice lateral may not really even have a shot at the few positions that become available.

And for those spots that are genuinely available to private practice laterals, you'll be competing against 20+ class years worth of attorneys seeking a career change, not just 1 class year.

Ask any of the unfortunates who have lost their jobs recently how much luck they've been having getting interviews for DOJ positions -- it's not pretty.

If you can get DOJ Honors now, and have any interest at all in the DOJ, then you'd be a fool not to take it in most cases.

can anyone comment on how difficult it is to get into the civil rights division of the doj?

when do we hear back?

26 - I totally agree. The government does not need a bunch of credentials whores just trying to leverage a starter job into Big Law in 2-3 years. If that's your plan, you will hate the government, and we will hate you back.

Love,

The Government

29 - Civil Rights is one of the most selective divisions. Rumor has it that unless you list them as your first choice they won't look at your application.

30 - Interview notifications go out on September 25. I have heard that they invite about 4 to 5 times as many people as they need for interviews.

Anyone have any insight into whether you should take a DOJ internship for your 2L summer over a big law summer associate position? I know that offers from firms aren't as sure as they once were, but I hear that offers from DOJ to join the Honors Program after a summer are pretty rare.

As a former DOJ Tax Division trial attorney, I should point out that (1) working at the DOJ was awesome and beats the crap out of working at firms; (2) you don't have to be a tax geek to be in the Tax Division, and in fact, litigation skills are much more important than tax knowledge; and (3) it's probably the easiest division to get into since it's the red-headed stepchild of the DOJ as it has no political function and almost never makes the news

#34 here again. I forgot to point out, that at least while I was at the Tax Division, it was almost completely devoid of Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia or other ivy-league educated pricks.

1. Shitty salary

2. Live in Cesspool on the Potomac

Please, where do I sign up?

Reading 6, and then 7 made me crack up. Ha, ha!

"2. Live in Cesspool on the Potomac"

As opposed to a cesspool on the Hudson? With much crappier weather? Yeah. It's a tough choice.

BREAKING NEWS: The DoJ has announced it will only be hiring Black Panthers, as per Eric Holder's decision.

BREAKING NEWS: The DoJ has announced it will only be hiring Black Panthers, as per Eric Holder's decision.

BREAKING NEWS: The DoJ has announced it will only be hiring Black Panthers, as per Eric Holder's decision.

^^^^ Lawl

Let's compare some numbers. Let's say someone took DOJ Honors over a big law firm in 2006.

DOJ person makes approximately $60k Sept 06-07, $73k Sept 07-08, $86k Sept 08-09. That is $219k in salary.

Biglaw firm employee made ~$48k Sept-Dec 06 + bonus, $160k + bonus for 2007, $170k + bonus for 2008, and $138,750 through Sept 09. That's $516,750 before three bonuses are included (and for many those bonuses add up to another $40k or more).

So . . . $516k+ for the biglaw job or $219k for the DOJ job. That means you could be unemployed from your Biglaw job for YEARS and still end up having made more money than you would have in the DOJ.

I'm sure some DOJ person will imply that once you are unemployed you'll never get a job there. Well I have friends who have gotten DOJ and other gov't lawyer jobs from contract attorney doc review jobs. This was years ago when the stigma was super-high for having been laid off. Now the stigma is low for getting laid off thanks to ATL which has documented how many firms are doing layoffs.

So I say if you can get the Biglaw job still take it. If you have a jerk firm that is deferring or no hiring you after this summer, then certainly do DOJ Honors.

Here's another number for you all to run.

Look up what your DOJ salary would be. Take out all the taxes. Divide by 12. Subtract your monthly student loan payment. Subtract what you will spend on food, entertainment, and other non-rent living expenses.

Look at that number. Look at apartments.com and craigslist to find DC area apartments that rent for that amount per month. Visit those neighborhoods during the day. Visit them again at night. Run the neighborhood name through washingtonpost.com to see if any crime/homicide articles have been written. Cry when you see how many crimes have been committed there and give up on idea of living in ghetto DC neighborhood.

Then look in VA or MD. Not too many affordable apartments in the closer-in neighborhoods on the Metro line. Look at further out VA and MD neighborhoods. Go to wmata.com (DC subway - Metro) and see how long the daily subway ride will take. Add in 15 minutes each way to cover time spent going from apartment to start station and from end station to office. Add in another 20 minutes for the 1-4 times per week Metro breaks down. Start crying again when you see far away neighborhood commute eats up all that time you were supposed to be saving each weekday by working for the federal gov't instead of biglaw.

Finally, look at that chart on DOJ's website that shows how many years of experience you need to lateral in as a GS-15 (who makes $120k). See that it's only four years (maybe five for some positions). Heck, after 2.5 years you qualify for GS-14 ($100k). Ask self how hard it really would be to do Biglaw for three years. Take Biglaw if offered.

I think it's pretty hard to lateral in as a GS-15 after only 4 years, unless you are going to one of those sections that is always looking for people. I had one friend who lateraled in at GS-13, Step 1, after 2.5 years at a large law firm. Another one lateraled in at GS-13, Step 4, after 3.5 years at a large law firm.

And I would actually be interested in hearing from DOJ attorneys about the question of being unemployed when you interview. I know one section hired a couple of laid off attorneys. When I interviewed, only one attorney (out of several) gave me any problems about it, but of course, I can't know what was said about me after the interview. But, 41, it's good to know that you knew some people who got in there from a contract job.

The Civil Rights Divisions does some great work but It was grossly partisan before Holder (previous administration) and now with Holder it is grossly partisan. DOJ tends not to look out for its attorneys while playing politics. Go back and look at the post here on ATL on Shanetta Y. Cutlar and think long and hard about what sections you put down when applying. You could easily regret it!

The Civil Rights Divisions does some great work but It was grossly partisan before Holder (previous administration) and now with Holder it is grossly partisan. DOJ tends not to look out for its attorneys while playing politics. Go back and look at the post here on ATL on Shanetta Y. Cutlar and think long and hard about what sections you put down when applying. You could easily regret it!

The Civil Rights Divisions does some great work but It was grossly partisan before Holder (previous administration) and now with Holder it is grossly partisan. DOJ tends not to look out for its attorneys while playing politics. Go back and look at the post here on ATL on Shanetta Y. Cutlar and think long and hard about what sections you put down when applying. You could easily regret it!

I agree that it's hard to lateral as a GS-15 after 4-5 years. Normally what they do is bring you in at a mid-to-higher 14 to give you pay parity. Typically they don't bring in laterals 15's unless they have many years of experience -- mid-level associates don't cut it for that.

I think that, in a better economic climate, Big Law --> Fed makes more sense because you can make a lot of money for a few years, pay down student loans, work crazy hours, then transition to a lower salary and a much better lifestyle. It's much easier to ramp down (on hours) than to ramp up. Not so much on salary, but hopefully, by the time you've put in your time at BigLaw, you've paid off enough loans to feel comfortable with the salary decrease, and it's not horrible if you come in as a mid-14. I'd venture to guess that, hourly, your rate might actually be higher in the federal government than in BigLaw! At least that was the case for me.

But in this economic climate, with job uncertainty being what it is, going straight into an honors program -- with job security and a future -- probably makes more sense. The economy will improve, and it's true, BigLaw is usually clamoring for Fed lawyers (depending on agency and division). In a few years, you'll be able to make the transition over to BigLaw if that's what you want. But the lifestyle change will be brutal.

I did biglaw to DOJ. Here are my thoughts.

* Most agencies bring laterals over for less pay then DOJ (some notable exceptions are the SEC, which can pay more because it is not on the "GS-scale"). Depending on the agency, a government attorney with no experience in DC can expect to start as low as GS-9, but more likely GS-11. We start our honors attorneys (the only way to get into DOJ with less than 2-years experience) at GS-11 at approximately $60k.

* Those who lateral to DOJ make more as a general matter then our honors attorneys because they can negotiate pay, and by 3.5-4 years experience, a lateral can expect to snag a GS-14 or GS-15. An attorney with 3-4 years experience at most non DOJ agencies, by contrast, would most likely be a GS-12 or GS-13. Some non-DOJ agencies have more competative processes to get to the GS-14 or GS-15 scale.

* I know of several circumstances where DOJ litigating divisions have brought laterals with about four years experience at GS-15 (steps 1-3) or GS-14 (step 10), which roughly equates in DC to a starting salary of $120k and, for GS-15, step 10 (the top), is roughly $155k. DOJ, like other federal government jobs, also annually give cost-of-living bumps of roughly 3-4%, which is nice.

* Some specific, recent examples that I'm thinking of are in the Civil, Tax, and Environment (and I'm sure there are similar examples in Antitrust and Criminal). It also is important that those aspiring to be DOJ attorneys not be fooled by the division's title. For example, each of the three divisions I listed have their own appellate section, civil enforcement sections, defensive sections, and I know that Tax and Environment also have criminal sections. So the point I am making is that you can be get into federal courts as an appellate attorney, a trial attorney, a federal prosecutor, (or stay out of courts, as a policy-focused person, if that's your thing) by joining any of DOJ's litigating components.

The take-away is that -- from a purely economic standpoint -- it ordinarily pays off to join DOJ laterally and not through the honor's program. That said, given the current instability of the private bar, I would take a DOJ Honor's job in a snap and sit pretting knowing, in a few years, I'll hit the 100k mark and will never have a worry about losing a job because of market factors.

I did biglaw to DOJ. Here are my thoughts.

* Most agencies bring laterals over for less pay then DOJ (some notable exceptions are the SEC, which can pay more because it is not on the "GS-scale"). Depending on the agency, a government attorney with no experience in DC can expect to start as low as GS-9, but more likely GS-11. We start our honors attorneys (the only way to get into DOJ with less than 2-years experience) at GS-11 at approximately $60k.

* Those who lateral to DOJ make more as a general matter then our honors attorneys because they can negotiate pay, and by 3.5-4 years experience, a lateral can expect to snag a GS-14 or GS-15. An attorney with 3-4 years experience at most non DOJ agencies, by contrast, would most likely be a GS-12 or GS-13. Some non-DOJ agencies have more competative processes to get to the GS-14 or GS-15 scale.

* I know of several circumstances where DOJ litigating divisions have brought laterals with about four years experience at GS-15 (steps 1-3) or GS-14 (step 10), which roughly equates in DC to a starting salary of $120k and, for GS-15, step 10 (the top), is roughly $155k. DOJ, like other federal government jobs, also annually give cost-of-living bumps of roughly 3-4%, which is nice.

* Some specific, recent examples that I'm thinking of are in the Civil, Tax, and Environment (and I'm sure there are similar examples in Antitrust and Criminal). It also is important that those aspiring to be DOJ attorneys not be fooled by the division's title. For example, each of the three divisions I listed have their own appellate section, civil enforcement sections, defensive sections, and I know that Tax and Environment also have criminal sections. So the point I am making is that you can be get into federal courts as an appellate attorney, a trial attorney, a federal prosecutor, (or stay out of courts, as a policy-focused person, if that's your thing) by joining any of DOJ's litigating components.

The take-away is that -- from a purely economic standpoint -- it ordinarily pays off to join DOJ laterally and not through the honor's program. That said, given the current instability of the private bar, I would take a DOJ Honor's job in a snap and sit pretting knowing, in a few years, I'll hit the 100k mark and will never have a worry about losing a job because of market factors.

42 - some schools have a loan reimbursement program for public interest work. Also, the federal government now will help with loans, and if you work for the government 10 years, all the loans are forgiven. Finally, I believe the DOJ will offer something in the realm of $6k a year to help pay back loans. If you are worried about loans but want the quality of life that public service provides, you may want to check into these programs.

To anyone who is assuming that you will necessarily work fewer hours at DOJ: Forget it. In a number of DOJ sections you'll work just as many hours as at any high-pressure firm.
-- Been there, done that.

51 -- you are a slacker and we don't want you at doj. in fact, rumor is that you have a small schlong (if you're a dude) and a big ass (if you're a chick).

thanks.
mr. holder

Join our firm, not DOJ. We like to poop in your hat.

Respectfully Submitted,
Bender & Bender
Social Security Law Firm

For anyone who is encouraged by 50's comments read

http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/aslrp/poliy.htm

As Appendix B notes here is one of the factors the DOJ uses in determining whether to provide loan assistance:

Labor market factors that negatively affect the ability of the U.S. Department of Justice to recruit or retain highly qualified internal or external candidates for such positions, now or in the future (may include such factors as salary ranges, or comparable positions, scarcity of skills, emerging technology, etc.). For entry-level attorneys, this may include the need to recruit candidates with unique skills, abilities, training, background, knowledge, or an exceptionally high degree of demonstrated potential based on objective academic achievements.

I don't think DOJ is going to feel like it needs to offer loan forgiveness to retract qualified junior attorneys this year.

51 (or anyone),

Can you provide details on which DOJ sections require more than 9 to 5 hours?

51 - This isn't directly on point, but there are rankings of the best government agencies to work for (available at: http://data.bestplacestowork.org/bptw/overall/sub ). Click on any of the agencies and you'll see a list of sub-scores, some of which deal with hours/work-life balance. Many of the DOJ components rank in the top 25 (out of 216 total government sub-agencies reviewed). The scores on work-life and family friendliness are night and day compared to scores for private practice firms when similar surveys are done for those.

In any event, if you join the DOJ, you'll probably be entitled to a flex schedule, which lets you get every other Friday off if you are at work for nine hours a day most other days. They can't take the flex day from you; if circumstances require you to show up to work on that given friday, you can reschedule it to a non-flex friday.

56 -- I am not aware of any DOJ litigating components that allow flex-schedules, although some do allow work-from-home once/week for attorneys who have been with the Department for at least 3 years.

DOJ Honors class of 2008, here to correct a few misconceptions with minimal editorializing:

1) Let's start with 57. You're not aware of anyone in DOJ litigating components who gets to flex? Now you're aware. I take off every other Friday, with maybe 3 or 4 exceptions since starting. If I have to go in on a Friday, I usually like it, actually, because I tend to know in advance, and the policy allows you to then take off that day some other time at your convenience, which lets you lengthen a vacation, for example, without having to use another day of annual leave. Many attorneys do it when they can, across sections, across divisions.

2) 48/49: I think you're making more of the benefits offered by this negotiating of salaries business than there really is. I came in after clerking, so I started at GS12. Because of the way honors salary increases are set up, I'm at GS13 and automatically move to GS14 by the middle of next year, i.e., 1.5 years in (so 2.5 if you include clerking, which would have the same effect as starting a year earlier). Under most conditions, I move up to GS15 a year later, so that's 3.5 years, as good or better as what you predict for a negotiating lateral -- this isn't because I'm particularly talented, it's just lockstep, in part to improve retention. Given the probabilities of landing a lateral job, I think you may be underselling Honors.

3) 55: your official schedule, pretty much anywhere in DOJ, is 9-5:30, with half an hour in there for lunch, modified as necessary by flex scheduling. Many sections work harder hours,and a lot of it comes down to individual attorneys and the "spirit" of the section. But there are some general rules that you don't have in biglaw -- you're not expected to have your blackberry on after working hours; you don't leave your kid's recital to go work on a memo. It's not so much a difference in magnitude as a difference in kind.

4) For those generally favoring biglaw over DOJ, let's be clear: if all you want is money, and you don't actually think (or know how to think) in terms of expected salary (that is, the salary multiplied by the probability you'll get/keep the job), this may not be for you. A warning, though: DOJ is hiring laterals right now, and they are specifically trying to screen out those whose attitude and resumes suggest they want this "experience" as a way to shelter the storm. So anyone looking at this as second best (who, say, doesn't think much of, perish the thought, actually wanting to do this work out of some sense of public service or wanting to help people) should think carefully about their application, Honors or lateral.

5) A reminder to those hating on the Potomac: not all Honors jobs are DC-based. Mine happens to be, I live in a lovely one-bedroom in Dupont, one of DC's safest neighborhoods -- I alternate between metro, bus, and except in summer when it's too hot, just walking to work -- and most of the other attorneys I know are perfectly happy with the transit/living opportunities afforded by their salary and location. That said, it's not for everyone.

55 - Quite frankly, I think most of the DOJ sections have work that will require you to stay past 5. The one section I know of where most of the attorneys really only work that 8 hour days is an appellate section - and those are hard to get.

If you are interested in litigation and government work, you should look at one of the other agencies in a subject matter that interests you. A lot of the agencies have their own litigation/enforcement divisions that provide support to DOJ. I interviewed with one of those agencies and they told me that their primary job is to make sure the DOJ attorneys have the correct facts, to help review or draft portions of briefs and motions, and to provide general litigation support. DOJ is then responsible for the final work product, court filings, hearings, depositions, traveling, etc. It's akin to being in-house counsel that hires an outside firm. If you can deal with not being a first chair litigator and you really want shorter hours, that's a better path.

That said, if you are dying to go to DOJ, I would look for sections where travel is not that frequent, trials are not that frequent, and there is not that broad of a range of cases. An example of this might be the Wildlife section within the environmental division (and I apologize if I'm completely off base here). They litigate under only a few statutes, a lot of their cases are shared within other sections of ENRD, and I don't believe wildlife cases make it to trial all that often.

As an Honors hire in a litigating section (not in DC), I have the distinct impression that some Honors applicants here (1) are disappointed that Lat made this post because they hoped for less competition, and (2) are trying to smear (or misrepresent) aspects of the program in a warped attempt to dissuade people from applying.

I have the 8-5:30 schedule, with flex Fridays, and usually do not stay beyond 6:00. Once I leave work, I do not deal with work until the next morning. And yes, you can reach GS-15 VERY quickly, especially after clerking.

58 - If DOJ is trying to screen out the people who are just trying to ride out the storm, then why are so many partners being hired over there? It would seem that a partner, who has nothing but private sector experience on his/her resume, should be met with suspicion if that's really the standard. Instead, all I hear about is government being thrilled to be able to get partners with all that experience and not really caring if they intend to stick around or not.

58 -- Your post is extremely helpful. One question -- if I've worked in biglaw for the four years since I've graduated from law school, how can I convey that my desire to go to the government is sincere?

Also, for anyone else who has any thoughts on this -- if I am applying for government jobs, how important is it that I have not been laid off or had any suggestion that I need to start looking? Is there a way to tactfully convey this in my application materials?

61 -- fair comment. Many sections, including mine, are hiring experienced attorneys. I should have been more specific: the people who have been posting (and generally post) on ATL, on this topic anyway, seem to be a few years out at most, definitely not partners. They're evaluating choosing DOJ over biglaw after 3-4 years. Those people are having, and even in good times have, a much less easy time getting hired. The people I know in hiring are looking for people with 8-10 years+ experience, for most of these posts, because right now we can get great labor --especially great litigators -- for cheap. They are giving preference to those who are public-interest minded, so far as they can tell.

That brings me to 62 -- at some point, I asked that same question of the hiring folks. I don't know how to convey sincerity better than anyone else, and I don't know how good those involved in hiring (mostly career attorneys) are at sifting out the honest from the disingenuous. Wish I could be more helpful. The best I can say for you is that you'll probably seem more sincere because you still have a job (and you can say you have it, aren't worried about it, but still would like to make the move for X reason).

Buddy of mine works at DOJ CIV. He said they expect 8,000 apps and that you should only expect to to hear, if at all, from your number one choice.

64 for here. Meant to say they expect 8,000 apps total not just for DOJ CIV.

have fun defending cops

Thanks, 58. It sounds like I'm a longshot for a gov't position in this economy, but I'll still try. Your comments have been thoughtful and helpful.

-- 62.

what's the take on whether political considerations are still considered when hiring for career positions.

i am a politically conservative 3rd year at one of the nation's top law schools, and am doing well academically. next year i clerk for a politically conservative circuit court judge.

i've heard about the politicalization under the bush-2 administration, and even read doj inspector general's report on political hiring in the honors program. and i understand that hiring decisions are now with career employees, but my question is do insiders still feel that politics plays a part? more specifically, will including affiliations that may have in the past helped (e.g., federalist society) now hurt? i'm in particular interested in the sg's office (bristow fellows) and the various divisions' appellate sections.

68-

Doesn't matter- unless you are top five at HYS (student not percent) you aren't going to get SG office.

I'm trying to figure out when I should start to lay off the pot: How rigorous is the drug testing? And when does it occur?

As a former King & Spalding associate, I can honestly say this firm was the worst place I have ever worked at -- not just worst law firm, but worst workplace period. I thank God every day that I no longer work there or have to list them as my employer. The firm is grossly mismanaged, compounding repeated terrible decision-making with a dog eat dog culture (a bunch of independent contractors sharing space to reduce overhead) that makes the firm's touted "no jerk" policy look pathetic and ridiculous. I have painted my description of King & Spalding with a broad stroke because although there are some good people at the firm, these few individuals are, unfortunately, not in positions of authority, so they are unable to control the wretched decisions made at the top. I would NEVER recommend this firm to any client, much less anyone looking to begin their career here.

71: you sound bitter.

68 -- Being politically conservative doesn't matter. Remember that a lot of the career officials are of one persuasion or the other. We don't let that get in the way of work. It's the imposition of political screening that screwed things up, and that's nothing any career attorney ever wanted, from what I understand. It wasn't their doing. Everything should be cool now. The only exception may be Civil Rights, which I think is sort of sui generis -- there are complaints that career attorneys there are very politically motivated, but in a sense, that's the point: the Division was born out of the left's political victories. It's goals are geared at objectives generally associated with progressives -- there are other government agencies with objectives more easily characterized as associated with conservative thought, and lo and behold, those agencies tend to have more career attorneys who are right-leaning, and CRT has more line attorneys who are left-leaning. I figure this is because many people enjoy believing it what they do for a living. If you're a conservative interested in CRT, it may be a little uphill because many conservatives are perceived as basically thinking CRT is no longer necessary (or never was).

70 -- drug screening must happen 45 days or less before entry on duty. Do with that information what you will.

Good luck to all you applicants.

-58/62

71: Was there an earlier comment about K&S above or did I miss something? For whatever its worth, I'm a former K&S associate who is now at Justice and liked K&S just fine.

I'm also confused about your dig at being a firm client. If anything, the thing I liked least about being an associate there -namely the constant pressure to turn things around immediately to benefit clients' artificial deadlines - is an aspect of the firm that clients should love.

73,

Thanks. In that case, I'm going to go light up right now.

-70

58 - you get flex days?? What division are you? I'm DOJ Honors 2008 and I don't know of any other division or section that gets to flex. In fact, I thought that flex is prohibited for DOJ attorneys per a settlement (DOJ attorneys sued the goverment demanding some form of compensation for overtime hours).

In every division and section I've encountered, the hours are over 9-5:30, but substantially better than the private sector. And no flex.

Generally, if your goal is to have an interesting life and career, and substantive work, DOJ Honors / DOJ is the way to go. If your long-term goal is to make partner and money in a private firm, DOJ Honors is probably the way to go, as you will build marketable, substantive experience quickly. If your short-term goal is to make a lot of money and probably do doc review, a firm is the way to go.

76 - Flexible schedules are standard policy.

See http://www.usdoj.gov/oarm/arm/hp/hpsalary.htm (Flexible Work Options section).

77 - okay, what i meant is that, unlike other agenices, DOJ attorneys cannot "comp" their overtime.

As I said, sometimes we work longer hours -- although I think that, in extreme cases, attorneys actually do work out "comp" days for extensive amounts of overtime -- from what I've seen, though, one needs to work it out with section management. But the flex option is there, and I know of people outside my division who use it. Inside my division, I know people who not only use it, but use it in combination with altering the hours they come in and leave at so that they can accommodate family life more. In fact, I remember a recruiter from DOJ talking about how eventually he set up a 7:30-4 schedule so he could pick up his kids from school. A guy down the hall from me works similar hours. Not a bad gig.

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In my Antitrust Criminal Enforcement litigation section, it's not uncommon for my section chief to give a few days of paid administrative leave to those who just had trials. We also can take the flex schedules should we so choose.

In my Antitrust Criminal Enforcement litigation section, it's not uncommon for my section chief to give a few days of paid administrative leave to those who just had trials. We also can take the flex schedules should we so choose.

42-

Ever hear of LRAP, fucktard?