Harvard Law School to the Rescue
[Speaking in the voice of the late, great Don LaFontaine] In a world where 2Ls are terrified. In a time when Biglaw openly flouts NALP rules. There was one man who would not take it anymore.
[Cue sweeping and inspiring theme song]
That man was Harvard Law School’s Assistant Dean for Career Services, Mark Weber.
Without the knowledge of the general public, the law firm Sullivan & Cromwell told 2Ls interviewing with the firm that it would disregard the 45 day waiting period for holding open offers. Instead, the firm would expect a decision in just two weeks. Am Law Daily reports:
In late July, S&C called several of the nation’s top law schools and informed career services personnel at those schools that the firm would not be following the 45-day guideline, according to six sources with direct knowledge of the situation. All six spoke only on the condition that they not be identified publicly.Instead, S&C told the career services personnel, the firm would require prospects to respond yes or no in two weeks.
But S&C wasn’t prepared for Mark Weber.
Click below to continue listening to this trailer.
Weber decided to confront Sullivan & Cromwell, head on:
Law school higher-ups had varying reactions to the move, but none reacted more strongly than Harvard, according to all six sources. Harvard quickly told S&C that, if it stuck with its plan to leave offers open for just two weeks, the firm would not be invited to recruit on campus this year.
Where Harvard goes, others follow:
Weber also sent an e-mail to several prominent law firms reminding them of the 45-day rule, according to a copy of the e-mail obtained by The Am Law Daily. “We expect all firms participating in our [interviewing] programs to comply with these rules,” the e-mail states. Other law schools, including New York University School of Law and Yale Law School, sent similar reminders.
Harvard and the other law schools successfully pushed back against S&C. For now.
But will this line hold?
[Cue hauntingly familiar music]
There is no NALP police. Only law schools, acting in concert for the greater good of its students, can hold law firms accountable to the current recruiting guidelines.
S&C vs. Harvard and the Relevance of NALP’s 45-Day Rule [Am Law Daily]
Earlier: Accept Your Offers: All of Them
(86) Comments
Comments
Firsty with MOOBS???
wow. a top law firm treating students like shit? dont they generally wait until people become attys to treat them like shit?
Unionize and take control!
This isn't doing anything to help S&C's reputation as a simply horrible place to work.
Even though this doesn't affect me whatsoever....It's great to see that some members of the legal world are standing up for students and young attorneys. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Thank you, Mr. Weber. Thank you, Fordham Dean too.
Whoopidy doo. Who gives a crap. Its ridiculous that this fake rule is in place anyway. 45 days to decide? What employer in their right mind would follow this? When is the last time you've been offered a job and said "well sir, I'm interested, but I'll get back with you in 45 days."
Harvard may have just cut its own throat. I think most firms are starting to realize that their associates don't need to have a T-14 degree to do mindless work.
It's Don, not Dan, LaFontaine. Check your wikipedia link.
I think this is great. If all schools follow such practices from the top down, then firms won't be able to recruit on campus at all unless they follow the guidelines. Because students have absolutely no power compared to these huge firms, it only makes sense that there should be some neutral body (NALP) to ensure at least some degree of fairness. As an 09 grad who got his offer rescinded, and knows just how much his entire career can be derailed by shady law firm practices (i.e., late March rescission with no stipend), I just gotta say: More power to schools with REAL career services offices.
I think it's a great idea to hold firms to a minimal standard of decency/professionalism. Of the very few entities who are in a position to stand up for students, one finally did so. In an industry where everything is about reputation and prestige, pissing of Harvard won't look good in the press...
As for permalink's question: if you have callbacks with several firms over a period of a few weeks, you may need 45 days. Unless you know your options, you - correction, I - cannot make an informed decision. But hey, not like the decision of where to work 80hr weeks for the next few years is one of importance. Just take the first offer.
This post is brilliant. All of that music got me fired up to look for jobs today. Thanks Ellie.
Message to firms: Don't give schools advance notice. Just withdraw offers after two weeks, or use a 'rolling timeline' whereby the offers stay open until the class is full.
This is dumb. Freaking accept your offer, and if you decide later you don't want to go, just tell your firm. Newsflash - they aren't bound to give you a job even after you accept your offer, and you aren't bound to go there.
This is great news for all those many 2Ls expecting multiple offers this year.
No. Noooooooooooooooo! They invade our guidelines, and we fall back. They neglect entire rules, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far!! No farther!
Fordham Dean + Harvard Asst Dean = beacons of light in the darkest of days-- fighting the good fight for those of us who cant fight for ourselves.
This is totally racist, but I read 14's comment in Patrick Stewart's voice
12 is exactly right. With rare exception, you can accept your offer within 2 weeks. If you absolutely are waiting to hear back from another firm before you can decide on an offer, then hold open the offer from the one other firm you're considering and explain the delay. If not, there's a good chance that you'll end up with a rescinded offer. Schedule your callbacks promptly.
Students have no real bargaining power this year, and firms aren't going to risk having classes that are 25%+ too big just because they don't want to rescind offers. But it is cute that HLS wants law students to think they have that power this year.
i think harvard law school is a pretty cool guy. eh tells firms off and doesn't afraid of anything
This is what happens when you screw around with the students of a law school fully accredited by the American Bar Association and a member in good standing of the Association of American Law Schools.
14. You broke your little ships.
--Lily
this is totally racist, but I read comment number 20 in the voice of a husky black man
Fail
Don would never use "In a world" twice in the same teaser. Correct as follows:
In a world where 2Ls are terrified. In a TIME where Biglaw openly flouts NALP rules. There was one man who would not take it anymore.
Glad that Mark Weber finally did something to warrant a paycheck.
2 weeks is long enough to decide whether you want to accept a job or not.
Lets stop acting like S&C was out of its mind or something by ...gasp ... telling the Harvard douches that they had 2 weeks to accept their offer.
God what assholes. Only giving those kids 2 weeks to decide. I hope S&C burns in hell for its intolerable actions...
This whole post was nothing but Ellie's typical sense of entitlement
News flash Ellie: In the "real world," you are NEVER given two weeks of time to accept a job offer. If you're lucky, you're given the weekend to think about it.
And by the way, NALP guidelines are simply SUGGESTIONS. Firms are NOT bound to follow them.
God you're retarded. I don't even know why I continue to read this ridiculous blog. (much less comment on it)
AT LEAST S&C IS ACTUALLY EXTENDING OFFERS, THEREBY SAVING ITS SUMMERS FROM THE PLIGHT OF MAYER BROWN'S, WHOM WOULD LOVE TO HAVE 2 WEEKS TO CONSIDER ANY OFFER THAT THE FIRM ULTIMATELY DEEMED TO EXTEND. IT IS CALLOUS THAT MAYER BROWN HAS FAILED TO FOLLOW PEER FIRMS SUCH AS S&C'S EXAMPLE AND HAS INSTEAD NOT YET MADE ANY OFFERS WHATSOEVER.
This rule hurts law students. Most firms would much rather undershoot than overshoot their numbers this year. So, offers will often be on a rolling basis. So, the longer you hold your offer the less likely the student next on the list will get an offer.
Nice, Mark Weber. Very inspiring post, ATL.
This is a prisoner's dilemma problem. Think about it.
This is a prisoner's dilemma problem. Think about it.
This post is a total waste of our time. I have never heard of this firm. As people have been saying here as of late, PLEASE create a separate site for small-time firms. Those interested can follow, while we can stay here and follow the big boys. Ugh.
14 and 20,
Will you marry me?
(Or at least have a three way?)
Sigh... I knew it was only a matter of time before that 45-day open offer period was gone. I really am hoping that my firm doesn't finally notify me in December whether I get an offer and give me 10 minutes to decide... but I wouldn't be surprised.
Just wait for cardcheck, then you'll see lots of BigLaw firms with unionized attorneys below the partner level, along with paralegals and other support staff. I can't wait to see Obama change the world. He's crapped on America's allies, he's sucked our enemies dicks, and now unions will take over BigLaw. What a wonderful sight to behold.
So now firms like S&C will simply rescind more offers later on. Nothing gained, nothing lost, economy still sucks.
Well, la-dee-FRICKIN-da!
By the way, can you post more articles on the Asian Angels? Cause if there's one thing MaTTT likes, it's Hong Kong fuey, ha-ha! Ohhhh yeah!
I think that this in fantastic. I go to a T14 school and they definitely seem to be catering to the firms by telling us students to accept an offer within 2 weeks. I dont believe students should hold for extremely long periods of time on responding to offers, but many of us have interviews into early October and would like the chance to at least finish our interviews before responding. Though we as individuals have no power to stand up to firms on the 2- week requirement, the school does, especially if the T14 schools all do so. They are not asking for anything outrageous, just that firms follow some basic policies they have agreed to. It really demonstrates the school looking out for the students' interests. Since I am paying 60K a year to my school, it seems like this is what they should be doing.
I think that this in fantastic. I go to a T14 school and they definitely seem to be catering to the firms by telling us students to accept an offer within 2 weeks. I dont believe students should hold for extremely long periods of time on responding to offers, but many of us have interviews into early October and would like the chance to at least finish our interviews before responding. Though we as individuals have no power to stand up to firms on the 2- week requirement, the school does, especially if the T14 schools all do so. They are not asking for anything outrageous, just that firms follow some basic policies they have agreed to. It really demonstrates the school looking out for the students' interests. Since I am paying 60K a year to my school, it seems like this is what they should be doing.
33, those unionized industries like steel, automakers, and airlines are doing really well and hiring lots of people, aren't they?
Where goes Fordham, so goes the nation
Normal stupid Ivy League response.
Why not allow S&C to recruit & make offers with 14-day demand. Tell students to accept all S&C offers the day there are received, and then just drop them later if something better comes along.
21 made me LOL for realz
25 = No offer. Calls went out last night.
25, 32:
This post is misleading, as it actually has nothing to do with post-summer offers. If AtL had read the AmLaw article published today a bit more carefully, it would be obvious that the dispute concerned offers of summer employment for current 2Ls, that is offers for Summer 2010. For post-summer offers, the relevant NALP deadline is November 15, not the 45-day rule.
I think mayer brown is a pretty cool guy. eh no offers assholes like 25 and doesnt afraid of anything
Elie - Any update on whether Hofstra has taken this hard line stance as well?
Future Elie - Should I start Sanchez or Pennington at QB this week?
35 -- Awesome.
37/38 nails it. They aren't asking the firms to do anything crazy...just to abide by the RULES.
Law firms take an enormous amount of time to communicate with law students, summers, incoming associates, and even associates at the firm. Every little detail is worked out before a communication is sent, and they take their sweet time doing so. And they want students to accept offers w/in 2 weeks when many are still interviewing? That's why there's a RULE AGAINST DOING THAT.
A school that is charging 60k a year should be standing up for its students. I hope more schools follow suit.
28/29:
No it's not. First of all, there are plenty of equilibria other than defection here. Second, this isn't a simultaneous move game, which means that Harvard's move is merely an example of brinksmanship - not defection.
Game theory FAIL.
Binder & Binder cancelled its Harvard OCI's.
30, just a suggestion, if you are actually interested in the "big boys" (which is your first mistake) you should probably figure out who Sullivan and Cromwell is.
50, is that the one with th guy who wears the cowboy hat in his commercials for some reason?
24 et al.,
This isn't about deciding in two weeks, it is about the fact that sometimes it may be more than two weeks between when you get an offer from the first firm that you do a callback with till you get an offer from the last firm you get a callback with.
You don't want to accept with the first firm just because they moved faster than the later firms when you'd rather wait and get an answer from the firms that just happen to move slower.
Back in my day we had till December 15th to respond to offers. Most people didn't take that long, but it was good to know that you had that long to think about where you wanted to go, do additional flybacks, etc.
52, Mr. Binder wears the cowboy hat to indicate no one is above the law. He is the most respected lawyer in the country. This year, his firm will only be interviewing at Yale.
51:
Thanks pal, you just guaranteed that the idiot that always posts that stupid shtick will probably come back for the next thread. I thought lawyers were supposed to be smart? Is facetiousness really that hard to detect in writing?
No matter in a world where only a fool lets a day pass without accepting any and all offers.
46 - Sanchez and Pennington are your QBs? Ouch. Start Sanchez against the Pats' slow secondary.
55 is a moron. facetiousness is not the correct word. Facetious means inappropriately joking dumbass. Get an education before you comment on this board.
my baloney has a second name, it's MAYER
Go Mark! Kick some ass buddy!
shockingly, kind of a funny post by mysTTTal
58,
facetious:
2 : meant to be humorous or funny : not serious
maybe you should go look into getting one of those educations that you speak of, idiot
- not 55
58:
Please see 62.
- 55
25,
Newsflash: Mayer Brown is not a peer firm to S&C! They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence honestly.
Nice edits 22 and 44. Thanks.
--Elie
43, THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE.
64, MAYER BROWN AND S&C ARE MOST CERTAINLY PEER FIRMS, THEY ARE BOTH TOWARDS THE TOP OF THE V100.
Can you imagine if GULC tried this? Thank God for HLS.
As a current 2L, I have to say the 45 day rule is a bunch of crap. I actually rather have a clear deadline that a firm sets for itself. It lets you know exactly where you stand and means that firms will be more likely to extend a second round of offers if they don't fill their summer class in the first batch. It also means that you're much less likely to have an offer revoked because you sat on it too long.
I'm currently sitting on one offer from a firm I would be really happy working at next summer and I've self-imposed a two week deadline. If none of my other callback firms get back to me with an offer in that time period I'm pulling the trigger. It's rough out there, make decisions fast
Wow. This site couldn't exist if it didn't rip off Am Law every day. Fair use is one thing, but this is another...
PE works at Sullivan & Cromwell.
I wonder if he had the balls to say anything to Latham NY after they laid off a bunch of HLS grads only 4 months after they started.
These deans need to grow a pair and start blacklisting these shitpots that fuck over baby lawyers. Let's see them keep their competitive edge with clients when all their recruits are coming from no name, nothing schools.
66 - you're either a mayer brown troll or a law student (most likely the latter given your cite to vault), you fucking twit. mayer brown is a decent firm, but to put say it is a peer firm to s&c is wishful thinking at best. To say that some top tier firms are also at the top of the vault list means that all firms at the top of the vault list are top tier firms is a shining example of mouthbreather logic. nimrod.
66 - you're either a mayer brown troll or a law student (most likely the latter given your cite to vault), you fucking twit. mayer brown is a decent firm, but to put say it is a peer firm to s&c is wishful thinking at best. To say that some top tier firms are also at the top of the vault list means that all firms at the top of the vault list are top tier firms is a shining example of mouthbreather logic. nimrod.
what would happen if HLS and YLS wrote letters to S&C saying that the rarity of black partners means that S&C can't interview at their schools next year?
Those black partners need to bomb Harvard back to the stoneage!
-DOJ Secure
I know of other firms doing this same thing. They aren't doing it for fun, but in an attempt to extend as many offers as possible. With a two week offer period, they can keep other summers on the waitlist in the event that someone turns them down. And, at least for the other firms, the two week timeline did not apply to those who were pursing clerkships.
Maybe unfortunate for those who are offered, but from all appearances it looks to be a way to bring as many summers on board as possible. Good thing, right?
Who is the hiring partner at S&C who asked for this?
Oh god, the horrors of only having two weeks to decide on whether to take a job at one of the handful of firms that gives offers to all its summers and isn't deferring people.
Thank you, HLS career services. You've almost made up for the shame of having produced Elie.
Even had S&C got their way, it would not be the end of the world. Students should remember that law firms are taking away offers and pushing out start dates by a year. What does this mean? It means you don't owe anything to a law firm. If you are lucky enough to get an offer at S&C and then a month later your Cravath offer comes through. Take the Cravath offer and tell S&C to stuff it! Who cares about NALP etc...you are not under a legal obligation to go to S&C or any other firm for that matter. We know for sure that any firm would do the same to you!!!!
64,
I depends. In regards to corporate work, MB is not in the same class as S&C. But when it comes to appellate, S&C is not in the same universe as MB.
Are any of SCs Summers really in a position to turn SC down? Really? Do they expect to get a better offer? From what firm?
Unless God (insert your own version here) is opening a GC office, all SC summers should just shut up, accept the offer and say "thank you."
Why didn't HLS win douchiest law school? What a bunch of self-entitled pricks. Is this really what clients are paying for?
Congratulations!
Based on your reaction to getting the offer, this is probably the best thing that could have hever appened to you. I encourage you to enjoy the summer and take accept their offer as nothing in the world will cure you of your prestige obsession quicker than some time at S&C.
During orientation, they'll give you an S&C shoulderbag and you'll wear it with the S&C logo facing outward so any other commuters in the know can see it and you'll just know that they're either impressed or envious. And that will make you happy and proud. And then you'll try to figure out the best way to ensure that you're sworn in as soon as possible after receiving your bar results because then you'll get the box full of business cards that say "Sullivan & Cromwell LLP" with your actual name underneath. You'll be giddy at the thought of casually passing one (mid-conversation) to some acquaintance from undergrad you've lost touch with.
You'll start working and you'll notice that there are an awful lot of "Farewell" emails and someone will tell you that the farewell emails can only contain 4 names at a time per firm policy because the partners decided sometime in 2004 that emails indicating 6 or 7 people were leaving the firm in a two week period might cause some unhelpful whispering. You'll talk to a midlevel associate who is super-psyched to work at S&C and you'll find out that he (not a lot of shes) lateralled from some firm that frankly you would never have considered working for (too TTT for you). When you get back to your office, this will trouble you a bit, you'll wonder if your own escutcheon is being blemished by the presence of this type of person (i.e., non-elite) at your S&C. But that feeling will pass as you'll find plenty of other like-minded first years who equally relish the prestige as you you head for a drink at Ulysses (shoulderbag logo facing outward).
Then you'll get staffed on your first big deal and you'll work late night after late night and then on the weekend and on to the next weekend and then on to the weekend when you had planned to go to a friend's wedding. And you won't go because the work has to get done and you have dues to pay (or so you'll be told). You'll get a little bit upset about this turn of events, but the arrival of those business cards will soften the blow.
You'll meet more and more laterals from firms that you would never work for (some you've never even heard of). You'll note in the farewell emails that some of the junior and midlevel associates leaving S&C are going to those very same firms. Survival of the fittest you'll say. But late at night, when the air conditioning clicks down from a barely perceptible hissing sound to complete silence, these things will bother you. But you'll tell yourself you're just tired and frustrated and anyway you have work to do.
You'll have lunch with Rodge and he'll tell you that business is good and that he's listening to associates' concerns about quality of life issues. You'll notice that some of the senior associates visibly roll their eyes at each other when this comes up, but you won't mind that much because, really, what other firm's managing partner regulalry has lunch with associates to hear their concerns (and takes notes!)
A few months will pass, a few marathon deals will happen, you'll have to re-schedule a vacation but you'll tell yourself that that is to be expected.
About a year in, a couple of your classmates will crack and start talking about how much the job sucks. They'll very likely have gone to Yale Law School. You'll joke that they couldn't hack it when they leave the firm for a clerkship, or an academic position or to go to a firm in another city.
Things will go on in this pattern and you'll notice the fact that you're working a lot harder than your friends who went to "peer" firms. At first you'll be proud of this and brag about it, but after a while you'll find yourself downplaying it. At least when you have the time to get out and socialize with your law school friends.
Something will happen: a partner will scream at you, a senior associate gunning for partner will blame you for her mistake, the partner will tell you that the trip to Europe your spouse meticulously planned just won't be able to happen (he'll be really sorry and will tell you a funny story about the exotic vacation he missed or cut short). Doesn't matter what, but you'll get really pissed and you'll start to take some of the 4 or 5 calls from headhunters that you'll receive every day at that point (vultures spell blood). They'll give you the names of firms that you laughed on in the days when you posted on the XOXO board, but you'll find yourself looking into them. The headhunter will encourage to just listen to their offer and you'll consider doing so. But you won't leave because then you'd have to give up your business cards. And stop wearing the shoulder bag. And the bonus is only x months away so you'll start thinking about it then.
Until one day you won't be able to take it any more and you'll find yourself arranging to meet with people from a lightly regarded firm for a position in their New York office. And you'll worry that the XOXO crowd will see you.
And you don't believe any of this will happen, but I suggest you print this out and keep it in the top desk of your drawer so late at night when you're feeling sorry for yourself, you can add to the list of reasons to be miserable this fact: someone told you this was going to happen and you thought that person was crazy.
83 wins, this and all threads ever written here.
In fact, you don't compare this comment to other comments. If your gunna’ compare 83's comment, you compare it to every other comment ever made, wasn’t made, by 83.
Shrug.
Harvard = TTT.
84 has obviously never been to xoxohth, that's a pretty old meme.