1: You lie!

- J. Wilson

Second!!!

I barely make enough to insure my new 911.

insurance coverage is awesome. No one works past 6 ever and i make pretty good money

insurance secure

If insurance law is as bad as everyone says, then how come I can afford these rubber-souled shoes?

Median at T25, someone tell me what salary I can expect at the personal injury firm I'll end up at

I'm at big law and do policyholder work. While I agree with the comments about substantive work and experience, I loathe 90% of opposing counsel. They are not smart and range from unprofessional to unethical. You might get great experience, but I would never work with most of them, even for big law salary.

From the old ATL post:

"When I started as a first year at one NYC insurance coverage firm, I was making $75,000 with no bonus (and a billable hours minimum of 1900)."

"Now, I am a fifth year doing insurance coverage at a different firm in NYC, my salary is $128,000, and our firm offers a $7,500 bonus to associates deemed the cream of the crop at year end. Name partners are rumored to make a boat load of cash, but other partners are rumored to be nothing more than senior associates. Our minimum billables are 2100."

http://abovethelaw.com/2007/09/where_do_nontoptier_grads_go_h.php

7 - a warm bucket of piss

i work 45 hours a week at an ID firm specializing in medmal. in my second year, i've taken over 20 depositions and done more actual work than any person in my position at any V-whatever firm. you guys take your perceived status and your need for a bajillion dollars you can only spend on the delivery guy who brings meals to your office; i'll take my life.

LOL @ 5th years making less than Biglaw first years w/ 2100 hours required.

I think this question also might be a little broad. As with small law firms, there are many types of practices that encompass insurance law.

For example, I would imagine that representing State Farm in auto accidents would be significantly different then representing an insurance provider to medical professionals in medical malpractice cases. cases.

But I don't practice insurance law (although I know a lot of people who do), so take my comments for what they're worth.

11, don't take your life, please- you've got so much to live for!

Suggestion: Create two ATL sites. One for the big boys and another - Junior ATL - for small firms in small cities. Hate to sound like a snob, but I don't come to this site for stories about some firm I've never heard of. The new site could be called Below the Law or Below Above the Law.

I do insurance coverage and there is a world of difference between this and insurance defense. While we have some of the problems with rates well below what "corporate" firms can charge, our bills get paid in full without question, though that is also a function of my firm being good about billing practices. On the other hand, I know of ID firms where people can only bill a certain amount for a task regardless of actual time, etc. Although in coverage you do have to do a good job and get things done when they need to be done, it is way more relaxed than many other practices. At my firm, if you stay until 6 you will almost always be the last one to leave. I remember a number of times when I've been the last lawyer in the office at 5:00 p,m.

13 - I wouldn't expect it to get more granular than this. ATL is not focused on the world of insurance law. There is probably some other blog out there that covers this topic more thoroughly.

LOL at post 8. "insurance recovery" is basically plaintiff work and the lawyers who do it are the slime in that practice area.

11 - we actually don't have to pay for our office meals

If we kept retards from breeding Insurance Law would cease to exist and the world would be a better place.

As noted by #8, you can do insurance litigation in BIGLAW. So why would you want to do it at a small firm, for less money?

Can ATL do a thread on corporate boutiques?

8

Don't take this the wrong way, but I would bet that you are equally as "loathed" by opposing counsel as well. There are good, bad, unprofessional, unethical attorneys in every area of law, including big law, insurance law, personal injury, and government.

I'm not trying to suggest that you are a bad attorney or anything, but to categorize such a large group of attorneys that way is ridculous.

--Not an insurance attorney.

Is the Bid Debt, Small Law guy going to chime in on this one?

If you can't even handle slip-and-fall litigation, insurance defense may be right for you!

good thing we've got all that brain power on doc review!

I'm retired now, but I started life as an insurance defense attorney. My clients included three of the largest liability carriers. At the time I started, ID was top of the line work, which paid the highest rates in the firm. Within the first five years, I tried at least 75 jury trials to verdict, took god knows how many depositions, and argued a couple dozen appellate cases before our state's court of appeals and supreme court. I made partner at the end of my 5th year, just in time for the firm to drop all of its insurance clients. By this time, the rates had fallen to among the lowest in the firm. This was in the mid to late 1970s. I then became a product liability attorney for self-insured clients, which allowed me to go back to having one of the highest rates in the firm. In the old days, ID was a great (and usually only) way to become a top trial attorney. If you want to be good in court in front of a jury, you need to try a lot of cases and take a huge number of depositions. Taking depositions keeps you nimble with your questions and follow-up questions, plus it teaches to you to free yourself from scrips, which can ruin anyone's chances to become a truly excellent trial attorney. I guess ID is over as a way to earn any type of living now, at least that's what I've heard. Product liability is still a way to earn great fees, but fewer and fewer cases are getting tried these days. In the end, I knew it was time to quit when I found that I mocked tried cases far more often than I tried real cases. The practice of law has turned to shit, and I'm glad to be shed of it.

A few years ago while between gigs I sent out a number of resumes to ID firms (as well as others) without knowing a lot about them. On the interviews I went on, (a) the offices were always very dingy, (b) everyone looked really, really unhappy, especially the associates in an open bullpen (i.e. not even full cubes, let alone offices), (c) one firm made me an offer of about $80K (I was a midlevel at the time) with the expectation of at least 2000 hours with a very low four-figure bonus upon well over 2000 *collected* by the firm, and (d) was told by another firm, almost with a wink, that ID hours were "easier" than other types of billable hours. When I asked how the hours were easier, interviewer got flustered, said there was a lot of travel time to and from court, etc.

Bottom line was that the experiences left me *very* wary of ID work/firms. IMHO.

I've done medical malpractice defense at a larger mid-size firm (100+ attorneys) since I finished law school and am now entering my third year. I don't think the issues surrounding this practice area can be broken down into pluses and minuses. I've highlighted the major issues as follows:

1. Substantive Work

You get to do a lot of substantive work early in your career. I've taken and defended depostiions, drafted dispositive motions, and appeared at various court conferences. That's the upside. The downside is that the law and facts are often simple. The motions become somewhat formulaic and good legal research is often unnecessary. To put it bluntly, it's not genius level legal work. Also, billing pressures often force you to take shortcuts.

I can't underrate how nice it is to have court appearances and depositions. It gets you thinking about your cases, gets you out of the office, and its easy billing

2. Firm Work

Most insurance defense firms organize their cases into teams of three. A partner, a senior associate, and a junior associate. It gives you a lot of client contact and allows you to be involved in developing a theory of the case and legal strategy. No real downside here.

3. Clients

You get a lot of client contact in this field. If you do professional malpractice you get to work with educated professionals. They understand the game, what you're trying to accomplish, and how litigation works. It makes the process more enjoyable. On the downside, it's hard to develop new business from your client contact. There are only so many insurance companies.

Further, insurance companies are litigation saavy. They know how the cases run and will write off your bills. The upside is you learn to work efficiently and you learn to bill. My billing is many times more skillful and precise than the same produced by my friends at big law. If you want to do anything than be a corporate drone you need these skills. On the other hand, insurance companies willingness to write down your hours forces shortcuts and sometimes sloppy motion practice. (Not that it matters if you;re in state court. They don't read the papers anyway).

4. Salary and Perks

I'll just say it. I make $85,000 / year a bit over $90,000 with bonuses (which came out to $7,000 last year). It's not big law money, but its nothing to sneeze at either. My billing requirement is fairly high at 2000 a year (my understanding is that most comparable firms have a lower requirement than that). However, my firm has more than enough work to make those hours feasible. The hallways are empty at 6:30 p.m. and almost no one works weekends unless they are trying to get ahead. We get four weeks vacation and you can take it without too much problem. It's a trade-off.

Also, there is great job stability. Insurance defense litigation has picked up in the economy. Aaronson Rappaport (not my firm) signed one of the biggest commercial leases of the year for more office space. Everyone whines about the possiblity of tort reform, but lets face it, most state legislatures are so deadlocked that Lance Armstrong will regrow his nuts before tort reform passes.

Additionally, I would say I go to a nice business lunch at an expensive restaurant once to twice a month. The firm's pretty good about picking up bar tabs, paying for sport teams, etc.

6. Mobility

I've made only little effort to move around since I started here. What efforts I have made have been met with positive feedback from employers. They like to hear about the substantive experience and that you have skills that go beyond doc review. Some of my former coworkers have moved to biglaw, but they are few and far between. Most people go to work for the insurance companies or move to small commerical firms. A few go in-house at the hospital/corp. they represent.

I don't have headhunters calling me everyday, but my understanding is that no one does in this environment.

That's the honest truth about insurance law. I tried to be as objective as possible.

27, 28, 29 - Long, but helpful. Thank you for the great info!!!

10 attorney firm on West Coast, 1600 hours, done by 6, no weekends. Practice is coverage, defense, some subrogation, all arising from a special class of insurance. Insurance book is about 75% of firm's practice, rest general litigation in related commercial field. Most clients in NY, SF, London. Ton of experience, including handling own cases, numerous depositions, motion and trial practice, client contact, etc. 125k last year as 2d year including bonus.

I'm a top 10% 3L at NYLS. If I interview for jobs with insurance defense firms, should I disclose that I am a couple points shy of the MPRE requirement? I plan to retake, unless I move back to Montana.

Great post 29, thanks for the info. As an attorney preparing to enter the insurance field, this was very helpful.

Mendes & Mount leads the way in this field

Can someone please block #15's IP address?

29 - thanks. moar like 29 olz

i mean "plz"

27 is spot on with a further problem that many carriers such a Allstate use captive in-house firms where the attorneys are employees of the carrier.

This has nothing to do with care and upkeep of anal crustaceans.

Some really snotty big law people post some really snotty comments here. I came from big law and for the past two years, have been at a smaller place, where I actually get to sign the very motions I drafted. I hardly ever work later than 7 pm.

Regardless where you work and what you do (insurance coverage, insurance defense, medmal, personal injury, etc.), as long as you enjoy what you do and enjoy yourlife, good for you. Forget what big law people say... they are just jealous that you can go home before 7 pm.

I work at a small firm that has a large insurer-side coverage practice. I.e., 30-50% of the firm's work, depending on the year. Last year, as a fourth year, I made as much as any fourth year in the city. More than fourth years at most "big law" firms, equal to the highest paying "big law" firms. Snobs from Vault firms would probably call my firm small law, but I make as much money and I get more hands on experience (30+ deps, experts, arguing motions, etc.). High end coverage disputes are high end contract disputes. They often involve novel legal issues, and there is typically a very large sum of money at stake (billions not millions). If you have the opportunity to work at a coverage firm, don't write it off because you hear the word "insurance."

I spent three years in insurance defense in a medium sized (11 lawyer) firm in a rural area with a big territory. The pay in the early years is similar to or bit more than a prosecuting attorney; not huge. In later years and as a partner, the pay is better, but partners often made only about what mid-level associates in biglaw do. It is a steady middle to upper middle class living, but you have to work a lot for your money at modest billable hour rates and you are never going to get rich doing it.

The good news is that the client always pays the bill and almost provides enough funds to do a non-malpracticing job of litigating the cases. The bad news is that you (1) have to stick to strict litigation budgets, (2) your bill is almost always nitpicked by the insurance company, and (3) you are always paid very slowly. Also, insurance defense firms are expected to do a certain number of subrogation cases of marginal merits, with marginal dollar value and collectibility on a contingent basis basically as a cost of doing the hourly work; plaintiff's lawyers would rarely touch these cases.

Insurance defense work is not cyclical. No matter how bad the economy is, people still slip and fall, still get into car accidents, and still experience mad outcomes from serious medical procedures. State and local governments keep making mistakes that hurt people, and when the construction industry itself dies the construction defect litigation goes on.

The days where insurance defense lawyers spent lots of time in court are over. Our firm had two to four jury trials a year for the full time work of six attorneys.

You do a lot of motion practice, lots of discovery work (although rarely overwhelming amounts in any one case), and small scale settlement negotiations where both lawyers have to care about their long term credibility because they are repeat players.

For better or for worse, you learn to be much better at handling cases efficiently and making reasonable cost-benefit analysis of litigation options. Biglaw is absolutely profligate, spending unfathomable sums of money to defend weak cases that could be won with less effort, and paying little or no attention to client costs. Insurance defense lawyers have to give much closer attention to questions like whether to do legal research on a minor issue that might never come up, or whether to take six depositions when you could manage with two.

It is "commodity work." The cases are almost never make or break for the insurance company, and because your clients got insurance, are rarely make or break for your clients either. Above policy limits judgments hurt both the insurance company (which may face bad faith litigation) and your insured client, but anything less dramatic can be taken in stride under the rubric of "shit happens."

Lots of plaintiffs' lawyers and plaintiffs are less well funded and less meticulous, so you often have some pride at doing better quality work than the opposition. Of course, if you have any qualms about defending people who are in the wrong, this is not the place to be, because you client almost always did something and will almost always end up having to settle, unless plaintiffs' counsel is incompetent.

If you get bored by bland, uber-similar business cases, insurance defense can also be a plus. Factually, there is a lot of variety. It's like spending your day in Looney Tunes land. You will eventually encounter every variety of stupidity known to man.

You are all idiots.

SkaddenDC Secure

echo 35.
please stop 15 from wasting our time...

I made the move from government work to ID law about 6 months ago. I working for a CA county that is experiencing a huge budget crisis and preparing to lay off any county employees with less than 5 years experience. When I started looking there were no large or even mid-sized firms hiring, I had to choose between small-time Bankruptcy , ID or no law.
Pluses: 1800 hours, $40 an hour bonus for every hour over that. ($75,000 salary). 2 weeks of vacation a year. Laid back and relaxed environment. Family friendly – another female associate is allowed to telecommute 3 days a week, and still has her full salary. I don’t make the money BigLaw does, but I’m home to make dinner by 6 every night and I get to see my husband. I do mostly ADA compliance litigation.
Downsides: While $75k is not bad in the market I’m in, raises are difficult to come by (from what I’ve heard). It’s so small that you really have to get along with everyone. Most of the associates and all of the partners went to a local law school ranked well below my T25 school, and their legal analysis sometimes leaves something to be desired. (Though sometimes this is a plus as I get the “hard and challenging” cases as a result and haven’t seen a slip and fall or the like).

Are there any insurance coverage lawyers out there who have similar comments such as those ID lawyers on posts 29 and 42?

27,

How did you find your way on to these interweb pages?

I also wish to hear the differences 41 alludes to.

45 - 75k for 1800 hours?

Jesus, that's highway robbery. I would do just about anything other than practice law at that point.

Even most Big Law firms have an 1850-1950 minimum.

Many ID firms are known as burn and churn. I represented a plaintiff in a case that was filed in 08 and the ID firm representing a defendant had 3 different associates on the file in 15 months. Sure they pay you $90k a year and for most T2 attorneys without excellent credentials that's about as good as it's going to get. But they make you work hard for the money; the partners are extremely protective of their clients because they know a burned and churned associate will try to steal them; and there are more than a few tyrannical partners. ID attorneys often switch to the 'dark side' i.e. plaintiff's work but rarely do Plaintiff's attorney's go the other way. ID work at least in Chicago has a really terrible reputation and people do it generally for the money, and nothing else.

Litigation is not the only "insurance law." Insurance transactions and regulatory work=also "insurance law." All of these areas (including litigation) are good for going in-house. Corporate compliance at an insurance company, reinsurance company, large insurance brokerage, etc. For former litigators, you can go in-house at the claims dept. at big carriers, directing outside counsel. And then there's government jobs.

Relating to what 42 said.

I'm in a medium sized firm in a "mid-market" southern city. The majority of the work my firm does is insurance based.

There is a clear distinction between straight insurance defense and insurance coverage work, but insurance company clients will often ask you to do both. We handle a lot of high dollar coverage, indemnity and reinsurance cases, but we also get stuck with the occasional fighting out liability on a low damages car accident, or doing subrogation work against defendants we probably won't recover from.

Although for my time, the absolute most interesting cases I regularly work on are legal malpractice cases. There's clear malpractice, but there's also the kind of malpractice where a defendant gets stuck with a huge bill and goes and hires a second lawyer and says "my lawyer must have F'd up, otherwise I wouldn't have lost."

Trying those cases means doing the "trial within a trial" defense, and you get to learn entirely new areas of law with each case. That means (1) hours, and (2) new things to learn."

Unless you work in my field, you suck as a lawyer and at life.

This is a GREAT GREAT GREAT thread - please do more. I'd be interested in seeing threads on immigration practice, real estate practice, prosecution and public defense (state/municipal, not federal - reality check here - the DOJ is not an option for 99% of attorneys).

50,

I'd say that's firm culture more than anything else. I don't really think churning and burning associates is just an ID thing. Although, to be fair, the lower margins on some insurance work tends to mean that the firm must carry a heavier caseload to make the same profits a firm doing other corporate work might.

There was one comment in the article about reinsurers being more willing to cut the check for high-end legal fees. I think that's true, but overly simplistic.

Like everything else, reinsurance work is divided between high end shops (think Sidley, Lovells) and lower end shops (maybe 10-25 person firms, rarely firms with less than 10). The Sidleys and Lovells generally handle coverage disputes as well as transactions (reinsurance deals sometimes look more like finance than insurance). The smaller shops seem to deal mostly in coverage disputes, rarely in transactions.

I think the comment in the article was targeted at the Sidleys of the world. I'm fairly sure that the smaller shops have many of the same problems that mid-range ID firms have. However, nothing in reinsurance seems to get as low and slimey as the extreme low-end of ID can get, though.

You might also note that reinsurance is a niche field somewhere between insurance and finance, and thus somewhat insular. It can sometimes be hard to get into and out of reinsurance - reinsurance attorneys will fault your lack of reinsurance experience and insurance and finance attorneys will not really understand what reinsurance is ("It's something like insurance for insurance companies....right?").

But, if you're at a decent shop, you like the work, and you're willing to live where the work is (it's not everywhere), then you can make a decent career in the field.

Just did 7 yrs at a 150 attny firm in the northeast. Firm was 90% ID of various stripes. My focus was on bad faith defense, which is really more "high-brow" ID work, and pays better because the risks are greater.

I'm currently at a high-end plaintiff shop.

The ID work has gotten tougher as of late, mainly because of the "Litigator 2000"-type billing systems that all the insurers have gone to. Back in the day, you could block bill and billing wasn't that tough...then came line item billing...then came adding the codes...then came submitting bills through the computer billing systems that seemingly red-flag half of the charges for one reason or another. Then half your time was spent justifying your bills (time which, of course, goes unbilled).

Starting salary was $65K for 2000 min. No bonuses. Highest any associate could make was $99K. Jr. partners typically started off at $90K-ish.

Upside was that you get hands-on involvement in files, do tons of deps. Trials have become rare, though, so it is particularly tough for an associate to get to try a case. If the case is big enough to try, a partner will do it. Otherwise, the case settles.

The environment is a churn-and-burn type of life, as mentioned by someone else. That also leads to hoarding of clients by idiot partners who realize that they have no transferable skills and are stuck for life.

Not an insurance lawyer at all. But of my friends from law school, the coverage people seem to like what they are doing, and most of them are still with it. The people who went into straight defense were all trying to leave the practice area after 2-3 years in. For all the reasons in the comments above. From what I heard, it is really hard to break into biglaw if you're doing defense work, if that's your goal. But litigation boutiques (small and midsize) have no problems hiring ID lawyers who have great litigation experience on their resumes.

From what I see, only ASAs or APDs get more courtroom experience. And that stuff usually doesn't involve much written motion practice at the junior levels, which ID lawyers do constantly.

I'm primarily an "insurance coverage" attorney, but also do some "insurance defense" work in a medium-sized midwestern city. I would estimate my own practice at about 75% coverage and 25% substantive merits. I would say we're at the higher end of insurance defense/coverage, though not working for re-insurers (I would love to do that).

So, I have a 1500 minimum billable each year, and my salary without bonus is $58k. I graduated in 2005, but since I clerked for two years, I am technically only a "second year," I guess.

However, firm pays excellent bonuses based on what you actually bring in. Last year was around $25k; this year will be closer to $30k. Firm also offers full health plan for me and my family (we pay no part of the premiums), paid parking, 15% contribution to a Keogh plan, and the ability to take time off whenever I want to - no questions asked.

Last year I billed about 2000 hours; this year it will be closer to 2150. I don't know if I'm on a partner track here, but I intend to specialize in insurance coverage matters and I would love to work with re-insurers. I've written four published articles on local insurance coverage issues and am on the Board of a defense organization.

Ultimately, no matter what people say, I enjoy my work. Do I wish I was making more? Yes. But I don't think insurance defense OR insurance coverage is a hellhole or not "worthy" work. I take depositions, handle motion hearings and handle trials on my own. That type of experience, and the great amount of client contact I receive, more than makes up for the lower salary.

59 here, again. Just wanted to quickly respond to some of the statements above. First, the insurers with which my firm works pay their bills on time, in full. Occasionally they nitpick, but I think that the reason they don't cut hours is because we're very reasonable with the amount of hours we bill. I always try to keep in mind that we have savvy clients who are also attorneys themselves (99% of our file-handlers are in-house counsel).

As for the hourly billing rate - YES, it is very low. But lately I've gotten some private pay coverage clients and that is truly where the money is.

28 -- ID hours are easier. Often, for example, when defending depositions or awaiting scheduling conferences, you can simply show up and earn your pay.

28 -- ID hours are easier. Often, for example, when defending depositions or awaiting scheduling conferences, you can simply show up and earn your pay.

As far as I'm concerned, ID attorney's are going God's work. www.GoodSharks.com

Please cover tax boutiques.

@59,

Polite suggestion (honestly) - you might eliminate the hyphen from "re-insurer." The reinsurance people generally see that and think that they're dealing with someone from the primary side (an "outsider"). You'll want your clients to think you're fluent in reinsurance.

Best of luck,
-56

I worked part time for an ID firm during law school. Some of the attorneys were good, some were not and there were definitely some tyrannical partners. The pay for associates was shockingly low and the minimum billables were 2000. The substance of the work wasn't that bad, though, as there were a huge variety of idiotic things which occur, as another commenter noted. Bottom line for me, however, was getting the eff out of that place. Luckily I ended up getting a good govt option and didn't have to beg the sweat shop for a job.

In the New York City metropolitan area, first year associate salaries at small insurance defense firms (20-50 attorneys) can range from 52K to 65K. Firms based outside of Manhattan tend to pay on the lower end of the scale. You can expect a raise in the range of 5K to 8K after your first year. Since most firms like to hire associates with experience, you can comfortably demand anywhere between 65K and 75K after a year of experience.

Most ID firms have volume based practices. An associate will be expected to bill close to 200 hours a month. However, with time billed for court appearances this is not very hard. Working hours on average are 9-6, and most firms do not expect associates to come in on the weekends.

As for the work, the experience is what you make of it. There is no single insurance practice area that offers a higher quality of work than another. There is ample opportunity to write and litigate. Some older associates and partners do give guidance, but you should expect to manage and teach yourself. Like all other firms, you will find good attorneys and bad ones.

These firms are ideal for new associates with low debt and experienced associates that are looking for a work-life balance.

As a second year associate, I have not yet begun to research exit options form this practice area. Advice is appreciated from anyone with insight on that topic.

Lat, you better watch out with these types of posts. Some unsuspecting readers might mistake this site as a meaningful resource for attorneys . . . .

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Moobs

Moobs

Re - Easy Hours in Insurance Work

This is true to a certain extent. When i started my firm paid $68k to first years (quite good for my area), and they have an unwritten goal of hitting 1800 a year.

But the work is almost exclusively 9-6 and I don't have many problems hitting hours. To the extent I work late it's only to play catch up. I spent 3 days last week doing depos, and including travel time that more than made up my hours. But I did have to stay late the other two days to finish up other work that had piled up while I was gone.

67, exit options from an ID firm are limited. Hard to go inhouse unless it is an insurance company. While litigation is litigation, biglaw tends to look down their nose at ID lawyers, no matter how skilled the litigator. Hence, my comment that once you make partner at an ID firm, you are stuck for life (unless you take the clients and open your own ID shop).

My suggestion is that if you are going to jump anywhere, you do it by year 3 or 4.

I have insurance boobs.

66 here. I will also add that at the shop I worked at, the billing system was ridiculous. The clients nickel and dimed every bill, and doing your time was incredibly tedious, stupid and time consuming- and I was just a student law clerk. That was another reason I wanted to get the eff out of there as soon as possible.

I don't know about possible career path for those trying to exit, but it seemed like shitlaw to me, for sure. That is not to disparage anyone who does this type of work (there but for the grace of God go I), but that was definitely my impresssion. I would say it was shitlaw not so much for the substance, as there were some interesting cases, but just for the general feeling that you are sort of a second class lawyer, working for, in some cases, partners whose egos vastly outstretched reality. Also, since those shops are relatively small, the ass kissing requirement can be a reality. Just one guy's experience...

I graduated from a lower first-tier law school and an Ivy League undergraduate school. I work at a small commercial litigation firm in a major city. Insurance coverage comprises about 40% of the firm's work, and I, for better or worse, have been on that docket for two years. I never thought I would do insurance work, but I have actually enjoyed it.

Positives

(1) Substantive Experience. Two years into my practice, I have taken almost forty depositions. I have drafted many dispositive motions and several appellate briefs and have had substantial client contact.

(2) Work is abundant. As larger firms in our building lay off attorneys, our firm continues to hire them. There is more than enough work to go around.

(3) Culture. The firm does not have a minimum billable requirement, although I will probably bill around 2100 this year. However, I don't work many weekends, and, given the influx of work, I am not concerned about billing. I very rarely stay in the office past 7. Also, the attorneys at my office are very bright. A few came from the local law school, but many of them graduated from top 20 schools. They are a very thoughtful, intelligent group, and one of our partners is considered to be one of the best trial lawyers in the state.

Negatives

(1) The pay. I am a second year, and I make 75K. Bonuses are low. The firm follows lock step, and, as far as I can tell, there is no financial incentive for associates to bring in business.

(2) Partnership prospects. In small firms like mine, partners often stay for their entire careers. This limits the partnership prospects of associates because there are simply no partnership positions to be had.

(3) Mobility. While some of our lawyers have moved to biglaw, I worry that, have been pigen-holed into insurance practice, a similar lateral move would be difficult for me. I am happy, but I am aware that people look down on this sort of work.

I hope my post is helpful to anyone considering insurance practice.

I'm a coverage partner at a west coast mid-sized firm. Insurance work is hard to categorize in simple terms. Commodity defense work pays poorly, and for every great lawyer who chooses to do that work there are four sloppy ones who aren't paid well and perform 4th rate work in return. You can't lump all insurance work in with the people who defend car crashes and slip and fall cases. I share the contempt that many of the posters above have shown for those lawyers and that work - it is deserved. If you are a big law associate and you move to a defense mill, you'll hate it.

Coverage is different - although again there is some divergence between garden variety third party coverage (such as construction defect coverage) and complex first or third party coverage (property, environmental, fidelity, D&O, etc.). At the complex end of coverage, about 75% of the partners can and do match wits any day of the week with BigLaw Partners (indeed a surprising number of BigLaw litigation partners do or have done this work in the past).

The complex coverage practice ought to be more attractive to a BigLaw litigation associate refugee: I was in court within 30 days of when I was admitted (in federal court too) making appearances all by myself. I took my first deposition as lead examiner within 4 months of admission. I tried a number of first chair trials as an associate and when I was a jr. partner; fewer since then because the stakes are greater today and I try cases with punitive damages exposures. In short, as a junior assicate I was able to actually practice law in all its litigation dimensions, not just some small sub-set of the practice skills litigators need. I do agree with 57 though - it is hard to get associates first chair trials these days. That wasn't so true 20 years ago.

My current firm is a full serivce firm - our commerical litigators have regular big wins against BigLaw firms. My transactional, IP, tax, real estate, etc. partners are very appreciative of our coverage practice because we keep the lights on. Our clients pay their bills, they pay promptly and they don't audit cut us much (you do have to know how to describe your time properly).

I don't make as much as I would as a big law partner, but then again I know several lawyers whose former BigLaw firms have gone out of business in the past 10 years. Mine hasn't. It's the old "Pigs get slaughtered" concept. If I wanted to make really big money I'd have chosen a different profession where I don't have to work as hard as most lawyers do. Doing what I do, I can still live in a nice house in one of the most affluent counties in the country and send my kids to private school. But, I never go in on weekends unless I'm in trial, and I get to handle national cases pending in multiple jurisdictions, class actions, and nine-digit compensatory damages exposure litigated matters.

67, if you're expected to bill 200 hours per month (2400 annually!), working hours are 9-6, few/no weekends and it's "not very hard" to meet the requirement, something does not compute. Big time.

Either it's your math (even assuming every minute of your 9 hour workday was billable, no days off/holidays/weekends ever, that's 45 hours a week x 52 weeks = 2340 hours a year, or 195 per month average) or your ethics (padding, etc.), something is off-kilter there.

I've worked in insurance law ever since the 1st insurance company was created back in 1642. I've started approximately 34 law firms, and I imagine around 7 of them did a significant amount of insurance work.

Let me tell you this about insurance law. Insurance law is all about risk. That's what insurers do.

Now I'm not entirely sure how that relates to anything, but think about that for a minute...risk.....

A sslobster says what?

One real general comment for anyone looking at small law firm. There is nowhere to hide. If you are incompetent, you will be discovered and canned quickly. Also, if you are someone that needs a lot of direction and supervision, consider some other options.

I think #79's comment was incredible.

It's great to hear from someone with so much incredible experience, I mean founding 34 law firms...incredible!

Also, the was he/she was able to sum up insurance law in so few words..risk...
incredible!

i am currently a young associate at a mid sized (70) insurance coverage law firm in a major city. the work is interesting and the pay starts at low six-figures. the atmosphere is corporate but always congenial. because of the size of the firm and the fact that it was not leveraged out, however, i was able to start work this year earlier than any other member of my class (top 25 law school). Low risk, pretty great reward considering the market we're in.

I work for a County in NY (large) and find that I have a very diverse workload and ability to do very high-end legal work, just because we are understaffed and we fuck up and people see us as a deep pocket. Also, when you work for a County the size of some states, you run into all sorts of legal problems.

I love the work. I handle a lot of municipal reimbursement cases, where we seek to get reimbursed when someone injures a police officer and we have to pay them benefits. Also, I get my nose in other areas, so I'll be arguing an appeal that I wrote the brief on, I write all my own motions, no matter what complexity the case is or the dollar amount, I am largely autonomous, in a small bureau. I work on environmental matters, and have represented the County before administrative agencies.

Did i forget to mention I'm a first year attorney?

The benefits are great, but the pay sucks, especially for the area (50k). Due to economic reasons, no raises are forthcoming, but after 3 years of this kind of experience, I hope to be able to trade up. I would recommend the government if you can find it (though most are in hiring freezes now). The diversity of work, if you make yourself known and try to get involved, you can't replace anywhere else.

i'll just echo 83. i'm in a similar boat -- a bit less junior. d&o/e&o coverage work. great hours. never work weekends. some high profile stuff, too. honestly, can't complain.

Lat - echoing 54 ---> keep open threads on small law like this coming! They're informative for everyone, whether or not they are interested or not in working in such an area.

Coverage work is a completely different animal. BigLaw dominates the best coverage work. Heck, Ostrager, he of the 1000 an hour rate is a coverage attorney. Yes, small firms do this to, just like how they also do the odd bit transactional work.

78- (67 here) I should have mentioned that vacation days and non-work days are included. Also 200 hours a month are ideal, but it usually averages out to 180 with time off.

87 is right. I am Biglaw and the majority of my practice is high-dollar insurance coverage. There are a few other V25 firms that I regularly see at industry events or as co-defense counsel. There are also a couple prominent, but smaller regional firms that I work with a lot. (I am guessing 52 is at one of them.) These regional firms are well-regarded in the industry and the resumes of the attorneys at them would put many Biglaw attorneys' resumes to shame.

top 33% graduate from T25; however, lazy as hell with no drive to work more than 8 hours per day. ID is perfect. 1800 per year suggested, not enforced, salary in the 70s in midwestern market. 3500 sq ft house and a Cherokee! 1st chaired over 20 jury trials in three years.

WTF

I'm trying to find Above the Law website and all of its usless comments about how the world begins and ends with V50 firms.

Instead, I stumbled upon this site, which has a useful post, and incredibly insightful comments. I must be lost.

Can you boastful morons stop saying you "tried" a "trial"? You appear illiterate.

Can you boastful morons stop saying you "tried" a "trial"? You appear illiterate.

This is a good thread. (I can't believe it.)

Thanks to the veterans who are providing substantive info and advice.

And since I have none to offer myself, I will now STFU.

I worked in insurance defense before making the jump to the Fed Gov. There are pluses and minuses to this kind of practice. If you find the right shop, you can gain a lot of self-taught exprience in client interaction, depos and (maybe) arbitration and trials. Very little mentoring is available.

Billing can either be really easy or heart rendering. Unethical padding is rampant in insurance defense to make up for low insurance rates. 2000-2200 hours is common on the E. Coast. If you are lucky enough to have a lot of meetings and/or hearings, billing is easy. Travel time is rolled into appearences (even thou most insurance companies forbid it) and you can "prepare" cases for hours even if you only look at cases for a few minutes Failure to do this will mean you won't come anywhere near your billing requirements.

If you end up as an office monkey doing ID, you will have a lot of difficulty billing (beyond being bored out of your mind) as the cases are too easy to spened much time on. Volume is the key.

Also, don't just look at salary, especially if you are married and need health bennies. Many of these firms will pay you 70-85K, but you could easily end up paying over 1K a month for their "employer sponsored plans."

Bottom line: U can get entry exprience, but don't remain an "associate" for more then three years.

There are some great opportunities in this area - you just have to look for them. I'm at a 150+ firm with an office on the west coast that focuses on insurance coverage and related litigation. Starting pay is 115k with smallish bonus after 1900 hours, but I get my own office, the people are great, I get plenty of hands on experience as a young attorney, and I get to leave pretty early.

On the other hand, I know of plenty of people trying to survive at insurance defense firms paying about half of my firm while working more hours. I guess those are the places that give such a negative connotation to the word "insurance."

I dunno - maybe my firm is the exception to the rule, but regardless, there are some pretty decent opportunities in this area if you look hard enough.

This question should be posted to the UCLA alumni association. A majority of the bottom half of each graduating class (excluding those who enter UCLA's prestigious 4th year program) end up in one sort of insurance work or another.

MysTTTal needs coverage...for his moobs.

When people say "coverage work" what do they mean? That you are repping the carrier that wants to rescind a policy or deny coverage to an insured? That's what I do, and I guess I should be describing it properly, but I've never been certain what else the term implies (i.e., what other work that I don't do).

What kind of credentials do you need to get into these shops that pay 75K or so? I am top 40% at a T-40 law school. Any chance of picking up a job with a firm that does this type of work?

I have a friend who went this route because he couldn't find a job when graduating. Now, he loves it and makes 6 figures and isn't someone's paperwork bitch.

Not a route I would take, but some love it. Don't knock it just cause you think it sounds gross. Hell snails are an expensive meal to some, a garden pest to others.

100 - u can certainly get a job in ID, although your entry level position will probably pay in the 50s. After a year or so you should be able to lateral into a 70k plus position. That is often what ID attorneys do. Raises are pretty paltry so they only way to move up is to find another job. Luckily, you make a lot of contacts and get to know different attorneys. But be prepared to move around, a lot.

My cousin is in a insurance law. My friend Jeffrey's sister also: insurance law. I got a lot of insurance law experience.

Defending insurance companies...Large multi-state insurance coverage litigation(business interruption, bad faith defense) is not the same as insurance defence. I agree that insurance defense can be lower end work. However, insurance coverage litigation allows for much higher rates, complex cases against many of the largest firms and a good (not great) salary. $150k-170k for 5-7 years experience.

This might be the best thread I've seen in years.

@105

That's because it is largely populated by practicing attorneys rather than the usual trolls.

I work in insurance coverage at a mid-sized firm (50+ attorneys) on the west coast. First years at my firm make $130,000, with a potential to earn an additional $15,000 in bonuses ($5000 guaranteed if you hit 1900 hours; $5000 holiday bonus; up to $5000 discretionary bonus). The hours are relatively easy to hit because of the steady stream of business.

I work in the reinsurance department at a mid-sized regional insurance firm in Los Angeles. First years at my firm make $125K with potential to earn an additional $20K in bonuses ($10K guaranteed if you hit 2000 hours and another $10K in discretionary bonus). Every associate hits 2000 hours. There are a number of firms like mine in LA. I don't make the money that my friends at big law makes but I'm happy and so is my wife and our 3 year old daughter.

My last ID firm was a misery of low pay (I never made more than $57,000 a year after three years), dealing with scummy unethical personal injury lawyers, corrupt and nasty state court clerks and judges, liberal lottery loving juries, alcoholic , cheap ball busting partners, low pay, cheap insurance companies that try to control everything you do and never want to pay for anything (i.e. lexis-nexis or experts), cheap low rent office space, furniture and technology occassionally relieved by slutty Italian secretaries from Staten Island, trips to dive bars like the Pussycat Lounge and the Blarney Stone, prescription pills and smoking crack with trannies.

99 - yes, that is what it means. You could be repping the policyholder or the insurer and doing insurance coverage, though in many cases I see the policyholder's lawyer is not a specialist in the area (usually the same lawyer from the underlying case). I think most that do insurance coverage as a specialty are on the insurer side.

I started my career in the tort litigation realm and spent a few years doing ID. I got a ton of great experience and transitioned that into biglaw. I will tell you that there are plenty of biglaw people on this board who would be outlitigated any day of the week by ID lawyers. I have no idea why some of the folks commenting here are so full of themselves.

ID firms tend to hire when they need people, i.e. they may hire third years this year. The pay varies depending upon location. In Chicago you can expect to make between 65 and 92 as a first year depending upon the firm. The work is interesting for a newbie and may grow tedious for someone after a few years.

The level of participation you will have on a file is vastly different than that of some of these biglaw desk-jockeys. You will write and argue motions, participate in substantive strategy decisions, and occasionally assist in trial.

You also have a way to move up after a few years, when you interview at other litigation firms (mid-level commerical litigation) and talk about your substantive experience.

Finally, the hours are blissful and I miss them. I used to come into work at 8:30 and leave by 5:20 - without fail...and I worked more than most of my colleagues. It is a great industry for family-oriented folks and if I were a 3L I would not think my life was over becaue I landed a job in ID.

I started my career in the tort litigation realm and spent a few years doing ID. I got a ton of great experience and transitioned that into biglaw. I will tell you that there are plenty of biglaw people on this board who would be outlitigated any day of the week by ID lawyers. I have no idea why some of the folks commenting here are so full of themselves.

ID firms tend to hire when they need people, i.e. they may hire third years this year. The pay varies depending upon location. In Chicago you can expect to make between 65 and 92 as a first year depending upon the firm. The work is interesting for a newbie and may grow tedious for someone after a few years.

The level of participation you will have on a file is vastly different than that of some of these biglaw desk-jockeys. You will write and argue motions, participate in substantive strategy decisions, and occasionally assist in trial.

You also have a way to move up after a few years, when you interview at other litigation firms (mid-level commerical litigation) and talk about your substantive experience.

Finally, the hours are blissful and I miss them. I used to come into work at 8:30 and leave by 5:20 - without fail...and I worked more than most of my colleagues. It is a great industry for family-oriented folks and if I were a 3L I would not think my life was over becaue I landed a job in ID.

112 -- I also started out in a regional ID firm. After 3 years, I moved onto a V50 firm for more money and more sophisticated work. I like where I am at but I also miss the predictable hours and getting to participate in all aspects of trial prep and even helping out at trial. I agree that starting out at an ID firm is not a bad way to go if (1) the ID firm has a solid reputation in the community and (2) the ID firm handles all insurance matters and not just the low rate slip-and-fall cases.

I can't believe that ATL has a thread that is actually substantive and helpful. I'm a law school student. Can someone give me examples of low rate insurance matters and high rate insurance matters? It seems that there is a huge gap between pay and quality of work in the insurance law firms. Also, what are some reputable insurance firms in Los Angeles and San Diego areas?

please cover patent boutiques. thxs. these posts are great atl.

The worst part about insurance work is the tedium. You're essentially a glorified claims adjuster. Insurance companies know the firms they hire rarely t have the personnel to cut it in any other type of litigation, so they pay shit and control your every move -- including strategic legal decisions.

At first the works seems more interesting than biglaw, because you get so much more responsibility. Summer Associate's write dispositive motions and briefs. But you keep getting the same shit. Read any brief filed by an insurance coverage specialists: they are obviously copied and pasted from another case. That is one of the reasons insurance companies pay for so few hours; they know the firm has handled the exact same issue for them several times. It is possibly the most intellectually boring work an attorney can do, and it never gets better; 20 year partners handle the same boring shit as first year associates.

But the hours are pretty good.

Nothing against those who practice insurance law, but I'd rather eat dirt. Just not my cup of tea.

Third year associate here, doing about 90% ID work and 10% coverage. Graduated in the middle of my class from a second tier school. Currently, I'm working in a southern state branch of a medium sized national firm based in the midwest. I've handled everything from your typical soft-tissue BS auto case on up to wrongful death and professional liability cases (fortunately, more of the latter than the former).
First and foremost, the pay sucks. I started undermarket (even for ID) and after a few modest raises, had my pay cut back in May (10% across the board for all associates due "the economy"). So now, I make less than when I started. Wonderful. We;re required to bill 1900 a year, and the pressure to meet hours has been increasing recently. This despite the fact that on many cases, we utilize a flat fee billing schedule (cuts down on a lot of the nickel and dime BS you tend to get from hourly clients).
The work does come with a bit of a stigma (even from within the firm from those who do corporate work). It seems strange, since in a lot of cases we're co-defendants with clients represented by biglaw lawyers. So many of the cases are exactly the same as the ones you would have at your friendly neighborhood biglaw. The only difference is you get to handle them a lot sooner (case in point: a wrongful death/products case that I handled as a second year along with a co-defendant represented mainly by a sixth year biglaw associate).
And that's where the only advantage of ID work comes in to play. You do a lot real fast. I was taking depos within a few months, and in the two years and ten months I have worked here, I have worked seven jury trials, two as first chair. Definitely something you would not get at biglaw.
Ultimately, I feel it's been good work experience, but at this point, the sacrifices made in regards to pay level are no longer worth it. Time to move on to something else.

Medical malpractice, defense side, 30 lawyer firm. One of our new first years starts in 2 weeks and in 3 weeks, he will be going to a 6 week trial as a gopher/paralegal (no bar results yet). He will learn how to get 5 boxes on one dolly, in addition to many other things he will learn sitting in a court room day after day watching a partner and a senior associate work. He is top 25% from a top in state law school.

This is one of the best threads I've ever seen on this site...please keep it coming.

I'm at a small (50 attorney) litigation firm in a decent-sized city. The firm's practice is probably 75% insurance-related - mostly higher-end coverage work and some reinsurance work - but some straight ID work, as well as subrogation work. We work with property and liability (CGL, D&O, E&O, etc.) policies, but no auto. Clients include both domestic and foreign insurers, and it seems that the foreign insurers may be a bit easier to please in relation to the billing issues discussed above.

There is a 2000 hour expectation, but most people bill right around that (no crazy 2500 hour years), and it is rare to be in the office on the weekend, unless something major is going on (which happens maybe 2-3 times a year). Lawyers come from a mix of solid T-50 state schools, as well as a handful of T-14.

Salary is pretty compressed, and appears to range from $110K to $160K or so for associates (though bonuses are not great), with partners doing quite well for themselves. Relatively high billing rates (for insurance, anyway - $200 to $300 for most associates) help. This is not terribly far off the salaries at local Biglaw shops.

Overall, not a bad gig, particularly because we haven't seen a decline in business over the last couple of years. If anything, we're busier than ever, which means no layoffs or pay cuts. Plus, as mentioned, cases are always staffed leanly and very junior lawyers have opportunities to take and defend depositions, handle relatively complex motions, and in some instances, try cases.

After getting laid off from Biglaw in my 8th year, I fairly quickly got a job at a mid-size CA firm that focuses on insurance coverage. I've found that, for the first time, I am completely running my own cases, writing and arguing my own motions, handling my own discovery and discovery disputes, and generally being a lawyer. I have far more responsibility now than the jr partners did at my previous firm. I also work about 40 hours a week. In 6 months I have worked one weekend day, when before I regularly billed 2400+.

There's a catch, of course -- I took a 50% pay cut to take the job. I now make what I made as a 2nd year associate, and my benefits suck, and I generally am not incredibly well compensated.

But I'm learning more here than I ever did at Biglaw. And the people are NICE. No screamers, no one keeping me til all hours while I wait for them to finish their edits so I can function as an extremely expensive word processor.

During the interview process, I was shocked to find that most firms I interviewed with weren't impressed by my shiny resume with the top 10 vault firms on it. They saw it (correctly, I fear) as evidence that I wouldn't have "real" lawyer experience. One partner I interviewed with at a vault 50 firm mentioned that they preferred to hire attorneys who had come from the gov't OR FROM INSURANCE COVERAGE FIRMS, because they got lawyers who could run with a case from day one. This perspective surprised me, but I took it to heart and didn't turn up my nose at the eventual offer from my insurance coverage firm as I was initially tempted to do. Best decision I ever made.

every time i read this site i get a little appoplectic: i graduated from a top 15 ivy law school. I landed a 160K job in NYC.
The firm i used to work for fired my entire first year class, and since i couldnt afford to stay in my NYC apt, i packed up and moved home.
I am now a first year with more responsibility than I ever could have imagined possible at this stage in my career (and am NOT enjoying it, thank you very much). just last month i drafted (and signed) half a billion dollars worth of stipulations on my own.
I make $45,000 yr. No bonus.
I need to move.

7th year associated at 200+ lawyer firm in a flyover state. Work is primarily med mal with some municipal defense. 2000hr requirement. 110k base salary + potential for 10k bonues. Hourly rates range from $155 to $225. The work is interesting. The billing requirements are strict (computerized billing with codes for function and task + regimented written description). Clients scrutinize bills. If you avoid certain keywords, you can outsmart the computerized billing reviews. The motion work is definitely formulaic. There is rarely a legal issue that I haven't seen before. Motions are cut and paste after a quick key cite. The challenge in the med mal field is learning the underlying medical issues in a case. Some of the issues are extremely technical and require a lot of study. I work 40hrs and bill 40hrs. Usually in by 9 and out by 6. Only weekends before trial. I have seen a lot of incredibly skilled trial attorneys on both sides. The big $$ in med mal is definitely in plaintiff's work. Most good plaintiff's lawyers in my city worked on the defense side for 7-10 years and then made the switch.

2nd year associate at international law firm doing insurance coverage work and I know they bill more for my time than they pay even senior defense counsel doing insurance defense. Kinda rocks, but can't help thinking there is something wrong with the system.

This is great! Can there be an open thread on salary for transactional entertainment law firms vs. entertainment litigation firms?

102 - You tell me which firms to apply to and I will apply ASAP. I actually had a summer associate offer from an ID shop back in my home state during 2L recruiting and had to turn it down because I couldn't leave my wife for the summer (long story).

I am now a 3L, but don't want to really accept the offer I have from my 2L summer gig. I would be willing to move just about anywhere as long as it is a moderately large city (wife is a teacher and needs to have a decent shot at breaking into a school district), and I would actually prefer the midwest truth be told (I know it's "fly over country", blah, blah, blah).

I realize 3L hiring seems to be pretty much non-existent, but I did see a comment saying that some shops might be hiring. I would be willing to start out at 50K if I knew I could lateral in somewhere else at a higher payscale in the future. So, if anyone knows of a firm that is interested in hiring 3Ls let me know and we can exchange info.

I spent two years working ungodly hours at a mid-size firm that paid equal to biglaw. I got some experience out of it but ultimately the sacrifices to make that pay check weren't worth it for me.
I've been doing insurance defense for a few months now and although the pay was a huge cut (50% - down to 85k), I'm the last one in the office if I stay past 6:30. Most people have mentioned getting to handle your own cases, but what is even better is not having a partner looking over my shoulder all the time criticizing everything I do. I'm not sure I want to be paid this much for the rest of my career but its much better than what I was dealing with.

I was a paralegal in a transactional department at a large top law firm for several years in a major east coast city prior to law school, and joined a small/medium ID firm soon after law school.

Yes, the pay sucks..it's enraging that I make just about what I made as a paralegal (altho that included OT, whereas my hours here are basically 9-5). Billing is strict, but hours aren't straight time, really.

The experience, however, can't be compared to biglaw, because in ID, you actually learn where the courthouse is- you go to court, take depositions, you get to handle settlement, you write briefs and attend arbitrations. Associates at the large firm I was at went to court every 6 months or so, when they had to bring boxes to a big hearing. I don't think its better or worse...just different. But if you want to be the kind of lawyer who can be self-sufficient and ever have the chance of hanging out a shingle, ID will get you there much faster than biglaw. Period.

114-
High end: http://securities.stanford.edu/news-archive/2009/20090716_Headline110151_LaCroix.html

Low end: http://www.injurytriallawyer.com/practice_areas/insurance-coverage-disputes-bad-faith-claims.cfm

to 100:

i was top half at a law school ranked in the 40's, and i currently make 75k, two years in, at a medium sized commercial lit firm in a major city. the firm does all kinds of work, including corporate and energy, but my practice is mostly coverage.

I am a 2007 grad with a couple years of transactional experience. Would it be tough to break into ID without any real substantive litigation experience?

126--In LA, there's not much difference in salary between entertainment transaction v. entertainment litigation. However, there's a huge difference in salary between firms that represent talents vs. firms that represent studios. No firm does both because of the inherent conflict.

77 here - to 122 good message. I should add that while I'll hire ex BigLaw refugees, the concerns that people actually expressed to you are shared by many of us, namely that you need to subtract 2-4 years of experience from the average BigLaw litigation associate to get the the equivalent skill set we need in our practice - in other words a 4 year at BigLaw has the equivalent of two years of experience in our world. It's not universally true, the BigLaw superstars who are on the fast track to partnership there do have better experience because that's where those firms concentrate the limited associate opportunities.

Please don't forget us in criminal defense firms (not government work)!!!!!!!

It is always pretty amusing reading posts from a few Big Law snobs attempting to justify their miserable lives. I do not practice in ID/IC, however, I clerked for a firm in law school that exclusively handled defense for one particular insurance company. The legal issues that arise are hardly novel or challenging, however, the attornies in that office were among the best litigators that I have encountered and knew the little nuisances and procedural quirks that eat up most lawyer's time. I think if one were to start practicing in an insurance defense firm right out of law school, after two years, he or she would clearly be a more experienced and prepared attorney than a typical Biglaw association paper pusher stuck behind a desk all day.

A typical week for an attorney in that office consisted of 2 or 3 depositions, a couple court calls each morning, and pouring over voluminous amounts of discovery. It was never a problem for any of those guys to meet the minimum billing hours, particularly because each court call gets billed out as the customary one hour (which as most of you know, when you have 3 of these each day, you basically get 3 hours of billed time for only 1 hour of actual time). Thus, the attornies in my office never worked weekends, would end their days by 5:30, and while they may not necessarily have enjoyed their work, they were some of the more competent attornies that I have known, and their jobs allowed them to have a normal family life.

A little late, but worth a shot.

I'm a spring '09 grad, and still waiting on bar results. I work in-house for a small med-mal insurance company, and have been here since 2L spring.

I was bottom 15% of my class at my T75 (TTT, if you will) law school, and not active on campus. I went to a T15 undergrad. Strong work experience, great references, very good board scores, but poor grades.

The company has never asked me for a transcript, and has flexible hours, interesting work, lots of responsibility, and plenty of learning opportunities. That it pays $36/hr (negotiated up from $20/hr during law school) is gravy. This works out to $75k/yr, without even a bar admission. I HIRE the ID lawyers who wrote earlier in this thread.

Jobs like this, for people like me, do exist. There aren't many of them, and they're not to be found through traditional means. I found this gig because I used to play tennis with the boss, and I count my blessings that I know how to hold a racquet.

Need some assistance...

I have some connections to a smaller (10-20 atty.) ID firm in Tampa. Clerked for them in the past and have a position secured. Problem: I have no idea what the starting salary should be in this market. The firm liked my work a lot, though I did graduated from a low tier school. I'd be a first year associate. They have been cryptic about what they're looking to offer.

A larger firm in the area that I know of paid their 1st year associates about $72k, 5 years ago, but that practice group also did some products litigation as welll as ID.

Any thoughts? How can I find out more info to bring to the discussion table? I don't want to be low-balled, then have to counter with "Well, a first year in New York makes $80+..." because they're completely different markets. Any help is greatly appreciated!

Great thread. Very much enjoyed reading it and thanks to all for the informative, substantive discussion.

For what it's worth: I come from an Ivy undergrad and T10 law school where I was Coif. My two clerkships were followed by big-firm experience in two major markets. I’ll go toe-to-toe with anyone here on brass-ring grabbing ability or on raw intelligence.

This year I turned down partnership at my firm to move back home (which required taking another bar) for QOL reasons for me and my young family. I've accepted an offer at a small firm primarily doing insurance defense (med mal; some products). Here's why: I like being a trial lawyer, not a "litigator." I had four jury trials and three arbitrations as a Big Law associate and that was far, far more trial experience than most of the partners at those firms ever had. Heck, it was experience (and results and very happy clients) that resulted in being invited into the partnership. But, at some point most interesting people will grow tired of measuring their career success in terms of dollars in the bank account or house size. I like getting into the courtroom. I don’t enjoy pushing paper around (or much less glamorously, sitting in front of a computer coding documents -- or worse -- supervising hordes of young attorneys coding documents). I want a practice that's interesting but that also lets me see my wife and kids for dinner most nights (note: you'll generally have a 9-6 existence but you'll travel more doing med mal, so you'll miss dinner 'cause you're out of town, rather than because you're in the office late). I'm a happier guy and a better lawyer because of this choice, even though it means I now make *gasp!* only $140K 10 years out of school.

The transition was relatively easy. The interest I had from potential employers was entirely based on my experience taking cases from start to finish. Big-firm XP was largely irrelevant, and academic credentials were secondary to what I had actually done as a lawyer. Funny, that…

I can't tell you how some of these comments have made me feel better.

I primarily do auto insurance defense and auto insurance coverage in a small firm(<10 attorneys) in a flyover mid-west market. I just started my second year, and I have already done countless deps, court hearings on motions, a jury and bench trial on my own, and won multiple opinions from the state CoA. I handle about 50 cases entirely on my own along with assisting on others, and keep getting assigned new cases weekly directly from the carrier.

However, I get paid <$45k a year. No real hour requirements, but they do provide a bonus if we collect a threshold of money (which is hard with our rates).

I love handling these cases on my own, and doing real trial work, however, the amount I get paid, when I compare to my friends in other firms in this market is demoralizing.

But hopefully I can keep learning this trade and, like many of you say, I can use these skills to lateral in to a more lucrative litigation firm and make some real money.

At least I hope so.