It’s Come to This: Unpaid Internships For Lawyers With One - Three Years Experience
There is nothing wrong with taking an unpaid internship. When you are just starting out and looking to get some experience under your belt, internships can be a great opportunity.
It’s just that usually lawyers who have been through three years of law school and passed one of the most difficult bar exams in the country aren’t in the position of having to work for free.
But times are tough. And at least one law firm in Menlo Park, California is ready to capitalize on the desperation of young lawyers. Here’s the key part of their Craigslist ad:
The current economic climate has made it difficult for young lawyers to find paid positions. Employment prospects improve with experience and a stronger resume. Good experience with a top notch firm is what we offer. If you can realistically make a six to twelve month commitment and can get by without compensation (other than billable travel, mileage, parking and related expenses), this is an excellent opportunity. We cannot make any promises of future paid positions. Candidates who have proven and distinguished themselves during internships, will be considered for future paid positions with the firm.
Let’s look at the positives of not earning any money and do a reader poll after the jump.
Taking this unpaid internship could lead to an excellent conversation with your parents:
“Hi mom, hi dad. Remember how you dissuaded me from pursuing a Ph.D in modern literature because you said I — and I’m quoting here — ‘wouldn’t be able to get a real job with such a BS degree?’ Remember how you pressured me to go to law school instead? Well, I now have a great opportunity for a legal job, despite the recession. Pay? No, it doesn’t pay. Don’t you read the papers? Anyway, should I just send my rent and bills directly to your house, or will you be putting my living money directly into my account?”
When I abandoned my legal career to start in journalism, I initially took an unpaid internship. Aside from the great experience, another positive is that all of the people you work with blow smoke up your ass about how you are overqualified for the position. It makes you feel really good on your coffee runs.
Also, the firm itself seems like a lovely place to work. From the Criagslist ad:
Our office is located in scenic Portola Valley. We work in a country setting, just 5 minutes from Highway 280 and 15 minutes from the San Mateo Superior Courthouse. We enjoy the deer and other wildlife visiting the creek which runs along our building. There is always plenty of parking. The trail head to the Windy Hill Reserve and Trail System is a short walk away.This is a good place to work. We strive for excellence. We emphasize team work in a family atmosphere with flexible scheduling.
Mmm … venison.
You know the people who say they love their job so much that they would do it for free? Are any of those people lawyers? Take our poll below.
(167) 
Comments
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now who is bad?
First.
God I love this profession! This will hit all the TTTers in the right spot and perhaps people will finally begin to understand how this game is played.
Attended a TTT law school and received mediocre grades?
Game over sully. You are going to have to eat your debt.
The ship is officially sunk.
Any peon submitting themself to uncompensated work is doing so for only one reason: they failed to work hard in life. An additional and probable condition is that said peon is dilatory and inane. And with performing unpaid work and all, is most certainly penurious.
I took Employment Law as a 3L, so I clearly know little about it, but you can only call something an internship for so long...I smell FLSA problems.
JaKe is a prick, and the people who have been fired on this forum undoubtedly hate him for ridiculing them for facing tough times.
The guys soliciting this should be rewarded with the quality of work they're paying for and I hope they end up committing and are successfully sued for malpractice.
-- Someone With Enough Experience Not To Have To Worry About It But Who Finds This Level of Exploitation Grossly Offensive
"When I abandoned my legal career to start in journalism"
I lol'd.
6 is right - that almost certainly violates the FLSA
http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/opinion/FLSANA/2004/2004_05_17_05FLSA_NA_internship.htm
I think Sallie Mae should refuse any student loans to students not attending a top 20 law school. This will solve the problem of excess lawyers and more importantly save our country from the incoming student bailout program.
This certainly strikes right at the black heart of self-entitled law students.
They're entitled...to WORK FOR NO PAY!
You're a jerk 5. I have been laid off and am currently seeking work. I hope you find yourself in a box on a street one day.
Thanks 10. Get in the door, bring the FLSA suit, and claim retaliation if they fire without paying! God bless employment law.
-6
BREAKING!!!!!
Eric Wedge out at Indians Manager. HUGE NEWS!!!!!!
I saw a special on TV the other day about sex slaves and how they take home no money and the pimp takes it all...oh, and you have to call the pimp "daddy."
Should we call this shitbox firm "daddy"? Probably.
I have called for this movement before, but we need to stop working unpaid jobs. Say what you want about "meaningul experience" but it will be just a pyrric victory.
We are digging our own graves. Save us from "daddy."
You'd have to be a complete moron and lacking any entrepreneurial sense whatsoever to take them up on this, and that's the type of person they'll get and deserve. Clients of this firm, take note. (I wonder if they'll bill out the time of the unpaid interns?)
Anyone with half a brain would form a 501(c)(3) and do volunteer work for experience on their own schedule rather than have to report to work and do someone else's s--t work on firm hours, unpaid.
Hey guys, what are your thoughts on the new Britney Spears video?
look on teh bright side--you can move to new york and become a bald gay shipwreck of a human being playing bitch to a fat smelly shitbag.
welcome to the law
@6: there's no black letter law but the Labor Commissioner's operations and instructions manual lists 11 factors in determining whether you can get away with "employing" unpaid interns. Long story short: they need to put a LOT of stress on education and training if they're making money off of these people, or they have to pay. I strongly suspect anyone who takes this opportunity would win a resulting wage claim.
Man... slow news day.
this is fucking sick
look on teh bright side--you can move to new york and become a bald gay shipwreck of a human being playing bitch to a fat smelly shitbag.
welcome to the law
17 - I doubt clients give a crap if someone does the work for free so long as there is supervision and the work eventually gets done well. Clients may even be happy to see this as they will assume more hours were spent on their work at a reduced cost.
20 here. Just to be clear, that test is California specific. The DOL has similar guidelines that aren't quite as favorable.
Hey guys,
I'm a 2L at a t-10 school and I'm working this summer at Wachtell, what tips would you have for someone like me to make the most of my summer?
--Nervous 2L
I always thought that the state judiciary had a monopoly on providing legal experience to new lawyers for no pay... good job private sector
16: poorly written & spelled.
13: why do you and other posters continue, after lo these many weeks, to take JaKe seriously when he is clearly a clever kid with a sharp, subversive wit?
JaKe: well done, except for the overuse of peon (when there are apt synonyms) and less than compelling usage of "inane."
The leader of the firm got his JD from Cal Western (a tier 4), so at least you will be learning from the best.
really Elie, what you do on this pig can hardly be called journalism. Be careful, your whole life will end up being a pile of crap.
I was hoping to find something to make me feel worse about my life. This did the trick.
The market is awful, and my school is accepted the largest 1L class in recent memory.
Career services can barely manage to lure recruiters to our OCI, and have recently suggested classmates consider "non-legal alternatives".
I've been hoping for a decent job in 1 hand and putting rejection letters in the other. Guess which one is full.
All of this wouldn't be so bad if I weren't in a T20 school. Meanwhile friends from my undergrad who are attending my home state's tier 4 crap hole of a law school have jobs.
For the love of god, will the ABA please pull some accreditations!
Here is the new plan. Top 10 schools get to stay where they are. Then each state gets 1 law school. If the state has a top ten they get that plus the 1 in addition. We then have 60 schools.
Enrollment is limited to classes of 200.
12000 new lawyers are year max, spread across the country.
28 = JaKe licking his own arse
I am a 3L interning for a USMJ this semester and there is a recent grad working in the chambers as an unpaid intern. The nice thing is that its been great for networking, as she is practically an unpaid law clerk and has come into contact with many practicing lawyers who have told her to forward her resume. However, working unpaid at a firm doesnt seem to have any of those advantages. No thank you.
I would take this position only in an effort to bring this firm down. I would pretend to work hard, coming in early and staying late. I would only take two bathroom breaks per day, each lasting approximately 3 minutes each. I would urinate on the floors of the bathroom, and defecate on the toilet seats. Additionally, I would stuff any and all urinals with rolls of toilet paper. I have a hard time believing that a firm such as this spends its funds on janitorial services and security equipment. In the event it does the firm does have video equipment posted outside the bathrooms, I would be sure to dismantle the equipment and cause quite the uproar on the firm's email server.
I would also sexually harass every member of the firm in a nondiscriminatory fashion - man and female; young and old; attorney and secretary; partner and associate - through the use of anonymous love letters.
Sign me up for summer 2010!!
"Candidates who have proven and distinguished themselves during internships, will be considered for future paid positions with the firm."
It is hard to put much faith in a sentence with such a egregious comma splice
I'm surprised any employer in CA would try this, much less a law firm. CA is the most employee friendly state, and our firm (CA office or otherwise) won't consider unpaid internships of any kind. Even for law students.
This firm is about to shoot themselves in the foot on this one.
Hiring . . . ANY hiring, paid or unpaid . . . is a good thing. If this firm takes on one intern, that's one less person looking for jobs. That's a possible opening at a biglaw firm. That's one fewer person that needs to be laid off!
Also, hiring a second year or higher associate means that there are openings for first year associates to fill. This means that there are openings for new law students.
Pretty sure having a licensed lawyer do work for the firm's clients would violate DOL regulations.
Did you guys know that Jakie Emeritus used to be my assistant? He used to make the best Hazelnut Lattes! He was like a chemist in there...just like Mommy used to make...
BOOOOOOM
Now Where's my boy Vinnie Chase?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!
this message goes out to 28 and everyone else that corrects people's grammar and punctuation including elie's (yes I am about to defend elie)
THIS IS A FUCKING INTERNET BLOG, NOT A BRIEF, LAW REVIEW ARTICLE OR TERM PAPER....WE DON'T CARE ABOUT PUNCTUATION AND SHIT LIKE THAT AS LONG AS YOU CAN UNDERSTAND OR GET THE GYST OF IT
Pretty sure having a licensed lawyer do work for the firm's clients would violate DOL regulations.
I would rather work at Locke Lord Houston.
I'm not surprised you feel that way, Jake. Your father refuses to write any time off of the bloated legal fees he charges my preeminent peer investment management firm (for the meaningless drivel he passes off as quality legal work).
Incidentally, as per our usual agreement, I will not be compensating you when you come clean out my gutters in Montauk. I will however, be happy to reimburse you for your LIRR ticket.
Pretty sure having a licensed lawyer do work for the firm's clients would violate DOL regulations.
43 -- your schtick was blown, and blows
I wonder if the OCI offices of the prestigious law schools that are able to place interns at this firm will include those placements in their employment statistics for next year's US News Rankings??
Does anyone know if having a licensed lawyer do work for the firm's clinets would violate DOL regulations?
"Why I Went to the Law Firm by the Woods"
By: Henry David Thoreau, Jr., Esq.
“I went to work for the law firm by the woods for free because I wanted to live deliberately, I wanted to feel how it felt to have an employer suck out all the marrow of my life, but mostly because I was homeless and needed a place to sleep, hunt, fish and bathe that was near the office.”
45=JE
I am either out of touch with legal hiring in California or this is insulting. At least pay something around minimum wage. I am no where near California, but I am pretty sure I could run down to a local solo or small partnership and land a no benefits, $8/hr gig writing briefs.
45 = JaKe
40 = Unacceptable overuse of all caps (to underwhelming effect).
Wow, that is shocking. No salary at all. Not even a low contract rate!! What balls this shameless law firm has. Bong hits all the way, baby! I hope they sink like a stone.
43 -- you have made a shtick based off of a shtick which was made from another shtick. You blow.
WALRUSGASM!
this is on par with the firms in SoCal that want to offer $10 an hour to recent grads to do everything a licensed attorney would do. Paralegals make more than that starting. Damn offensive. I'd rather tutor high school students for $25/hr.
Do your research. Lawyers and doctors are not covered by the FLSA. Pay them 160K or pay them nothing.
51 = 49 = 43
Your shtick was blown, and it blows.
Absolutely shameless.
Absolutely shameless.
Perhaps this is a good ticket to a worker's comp or disability claim, or even a tort claim against the firm?
Bringing someone coffee, or moving your monitor or desk around, one might get hurt and could then potentially set up an income stream lasting much longer than unemployment. And at the same time, you'd be dinging the insurance rates of the firm as a bonus!
What the hell is up with all of the weird walrus comments?
Hello. I am the recruiting coordinator here and have been alerted that our solicitation was placed on this site.
Why is this offer offensive or shameless? The market is flooded with lawyers and we are giving applicants the opportunity of keeping their skills sharp if they have experience. Alternatively, if they have no experience, we offer them the ability of obtaining some training.
Realistically, we understand that applicants who take our internship will be better off in the long run. Please send me your inquiries to my contact information on the craigslist post. Best regards.
CE, your schtick sucks. But you are doing a hell of a job aggravating JE as I suspect that all of the posts referencing your comment is JE in cognito, pathetically attempting to defend his own sucky schtick.
63 = 51 = 49 = 43
i love that ppl think that law students have a sense of entitlement....well I think anyone who works 80 hour weeks, pays upward $100,000 for a degree thats in question right now , and has to face that debt is a bit entitled. Especially if your rank sits in the t10 of your class and you had the foresight to check your schools OCI status before you made your decision if you knew you wanted to go to a firm. This is sick and that firm should be ashamed of themeselves....you do work that services people for free or you work for the government for free....firms are not entitled to free labor!
Happily employed, here. Under certain circumstances, sure I would have taken an unpaid internship, but it wouldn't have been for a for-profit company, and it sure wouldn't have involved any sort of commitment (6-12 months, ha!) on my end. Would someone please out this firm so the world knows what shysters are behind this ad!
yeah sure 62. By the way, my car broke down. Can I get an out-of-work mechanic to fix it for free? you know, to help him obtain better experience and maybe in the future I will even consider paying him!!! (or not)
Dunder Mifflin is currently hiring. T14 and ex-V50 associates need apply.
http://www.dundermifflin.com/careers/
Weird that you don't mention your major sponsor's similar "internship" program that has apparently been extended to unemployed lawyers after LateralLink attempted to make it look like a win-win situation only for associates taking their firm's sabbatical program. They soon realized that it was impossible to find a competent non-first year willing to take a sabbatical from their firm and work full-time and for free elsewhere.
This message goes out to 40 and anyone else who posts here after having been lobotomized.
Spelling, punctuation and grammar matter. If you misspell basic words and if the concept of a comma mystifies you much like whether your arms or your legs belong in your shirt, you are a moron.
I also don't care in which medium you're writing. It could be something as formal as the form you recently filled out in vain to apply for your G.E.D. equivalency; it could be as informal as the Twitter post you just wrote in hopes of convincing small animals to stop laughing at you for being so stupid.
If you are writing, have some self-respect and write well.
What an asshole. The guy posting this will most certainly bill the client for the time the attorney works. To say the attorney doesn't even get a piece of that is ridiculous.
If some reason reason the attorney did take this position, the attorney should do the work then file their FLSA complaint for the backpay. I would guess there is at least a 2 year SoL so work for the year, then after finding new job get the money. Summarily remove the position from your resume and give the guy a nice "child please."
Just wanted to add to the heap, I am pretty sure this is illegal. I remember when I graduated from undergrad I try to get unpaid internship at entertainment companies I wanted to work at and was told often that it was in violation of the law to have an internship that did not offer pay or school credit.
At least the guy could offer some sort of pittance like this:
Candidates will be members of the Massachusetts Bar and should have excellent work product. Candidate will also have strong writing and research skills. Duties will include drafting and reviewing complaints, motions, preparation of discovery, and communicating with the courts and clients. Multiple court appearances each week, so reliable transportation is a must. Excellent communication skills a plus. Pay is commensurate with experience $30,000-$35,000.
After taxes, I can't even make my minimum loan payments on $30k/year, let alone have "reliable transportation." Just fucking disgusting.
They are not the first ones - New Jersey Office of Attorney General advertised its unpaid/volunteer program for admitted attorneys several months ago and recently I saw a similar ad by New York Office of Court Administration. I am rather curious what employee-side lawyers have to say about those programs and FLSA.
72: I think "pro bonoing" is viewed differently. I did it for six months at a local DA's office after getting laid off by a large law firm. I did it because I had planned to do it after bonuses--time table just got sped up because of layoffs, but I also did it keep busy and to fill resume gap. Then I stuck with it because I thought they'd hire. But no because all the "deferred associates" are gumming up the works. Why buy the cow, eh?
It'll be curious to see what happens to when Daddy Big Law pulls them back early. Who'd stick with the firm-paid $60K-ish salary. Can you even say no if they pull you back early? Hmm...
We need a union.
Haven't taken the time to ID this specific firm, but I'm sure they'll be billing their clients by the hour for whatever crap work they have the sucker who takes this doing. Wonder how a client would feel about that? Pure profit and greed for the firm. Forget this crap that they're spewing about wanting to give experience. No, you want a slave.
Wonder if this also brings up any ethical issues? Will the firm have malpractice insurance on this slave?
@56 - do your research - if these interns are doing work that doesn't require advanced knowledge of a subject like proofing memos, bate stamping, w/e - they don't fall under the FLSA professional exemption.
...and Menlo Park/San Mateo is a really pricey place to live!
There's a difference in working for the government (AG or DA's offices) for free versus working for a private firm who is surely billing the clients for the slave attorney's time.
It's not so much the working for free that bothers me (to each their own), it's the working for free for someone who is going to make money off the free labor.
Firm's address:
Law Offices of Boris Efron
130 Portola Rd
Portola Vally, CA 94028
Attorney profiles:
http://www.lawyers.com/California/Portola-Valley/Law-Offices-of-Boris-E.-Efron-161107-f.html
Dude, who would have thought graduating from a TTT in 2008 and making $75K a year in a small firm would seem so ... bearable.
Dude, who would have thought graduating from a TTT in 2008 and making $75K a year in a small firm would seem so ... bearable.
34,
well done. Reading your comment was the first time I ever LOL'd reading the ridiculous and angry comments that fill this website most of the time.
My question is who in the world are these people that could work for 1 month, let alone 6 or 12 months, for free after graduating law school??? If your parents have that much money that they can pay for your undergrad & law school w/o any debt falling on you, than have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up. Let the rest of us normal people continue trying to find a job to pay the bills. Whether it be a legal job or whatever it may end up being...
Did 40 misuse ellipses? What a loser.
Senior partner there went to Cal Western law, check out the admissions standards:
Academic Statistics
75th percentile GPA: 3.51
25th percentile GPA: 3.06
75th percentile LSAT: 155
25th percentile LSAT: 151
Kinda unlikely that this is a "top notch firm" when it is questionable whether the senior partner can read or not.
This is opportunism at its worst dressed up like they are doing someone a favor. Please. It may be true that junior (and even senior) attorneys are overpaid, but no one can get by on nothing. And if you can, then daddy probably has the means to get you a paying job
8 nailed it.
Ever since I passed the Bar, I have an inordinate number of friends running for-profit businesses who have started hitting me up for free legal advice (reviewing agreements, etc.), and they were rather taken aback when I told them that we would have to sign a retainer agreement (I'm currently working as a solo) and they would have to pay (albeit a reduced rate).
When they expressed surprise and tried to squeeze free work out of me, I responded that I would rather stack boxes at the warehouse I worked at to put myself through school than give away my professional skills for free. It's basically tantamount to admitting your skills are worth nothing. If that's what the market thinks, so be it, but I'll be damned if I ever sign up to that view by working for free. Absolutely ridiculous
26 - purchase knee pads and lubricant.
That country setting sounds like a lovely place to killself.
Work for free... HA! I used to work for free until I found Chrometa. It helps me track my time and recoup lost hours that I wouldn't otherwise bill. You would be surprised how much time you fail to bill.
62:
I love that you showed up here. I like even more that you've attempted to defend this idea.
What do I care about all the fucking deer and other visiting wildlife? And the "country setting"? Do you work outside on picnic tables?
And the Windy Hill Reserve and Trail System?
I can only imagine how you would react if my cover letter cited the abundant wildlife and the possibility of taking long mid-day nature walks as reasons I would like to work for you.
Could you "realistically make [it] six to twelve month[s] . . . without compensation"?
You're fucking mentally challenged.
Hmmmm, I guess I missed the part where the firm was forcing people to come work for free. Don't like the offer? Don't take it...and enjoy living on Ramen noodles and peanut butter. Yeah, the economy sucks, yeah I thought I'd get a job after graduation. I was wrong. Stop whining and move on with your life, bud. If you're like most folks, 24 years old (or so) you have a lot of living in front of you. Sure it sucks to have to change your plans...again, it ain't the last time and it sure won't be the last.
"again, it ain't the last time and it sure won't be the last."
Tibor, meet Dogberry:
"Marry, sir, they have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths; secondarily,
they are slanders; sixth and lastly, they have
belied a lady; thirdly, they have verified unjust
things; and, to conclude, they are lying knaves."
Dear 62:
Since you apparently can't be bothered to read the string of posts--and are therefore confused as to why the Efron law firm is being criticized--I'll help by summarizing.
1. Posters think what the law firm is doing is illegal under California law (e.g., you can't call it an internship when it's really a slimy attempt to get free labor).
2. Posters think what the law firm is doing is unethical (e.g., that you'll be billing for the intern's work but not sharing).
3. Posters think that what the law firm is doing is silly and unhelpful (e.g., why take a job with you when one could find free work with the government or a non-profit that would be more meaningful and would translate into better skill building and future opportunities?).
Sincerely,
ATL Reader
When I was starting out, a partner told me: "This line of work ain't f@cking charity work."
Don't take unpaid gigs.
62
Are you working there for free too?
78 - if your analysis was correct, none of the document review monkeys in Biglaw would be exempt. Lawyers, doctors and medical interns are expressly exempt, regardless of whether they satisfy the elements of the professional exemption (e.g., the salary and duty tests).
HAHAA. I credit this firm for trying to screw the law student masses. They were stupid enough to go to law school in this market, they are stupid enough to work for free and become some soft fat partner's bitch boy.
I have a strong suspicion that 62 is a flame . . .
I live nearby Portola Valley. There are only local hacks within a walk from Windy Hill. Nothing "top notch."
I'm happy to offer 6-12 months house cleaning experience at my house. In return for free labor, I will show you how to sweep and mop my floors while serving me dinner. With the experience in hand you will have limitless entry level cleaning opportunities at any of the state's La Quinta Inns.
You'd be better off selling Good Humor bars on the street than taking a non-paying gig for "experience." Anyone who would even consider this offer is a fucktard.
Pretty cool, even convicted felons in prison get paid so many cents per hour for their work.
Does it depress you to know that the deli guy who sold you your turkey sandwich today, makes more than you per hour and has a more secure future? This profession is a total sham.
Is it safe to say that recent grads should be looking into alternative careers instead of waiting around for the economy to pick up?
The ship be sinking...
I wonder if there will be so much interest that certain desperate applicants will be willing to pay for the experience. F my life.
Hell no, everyone knows that lawyers make a boatload of cash, unlike other peon careers.
Elie, you should dedicate a post to law firms that are growing (and have been resistant to layoffs):
Foley & Lardner Expands Bankruptcy & Business Reorganizations Practice With Addition of Douglas Spelfogel
http://www.foley.com/news/news_detail.aspx?newsid=4012
110 = Kyle J. Heath
I'm all for a new lawyer volunteering their time, but Jesus Christ, there are people that actually need volunteer attorneys (legal aid clinics, etc.) where you will get good resume building experience. And future employers will look favorably on that. But this? A for-profit firm that will undoubtedly be billing your time? Totally unfair. And a post-grad, post-licensure internship at a law firm on your resume just looks...weird.
Unpaid internships are also available at Kramerica.
- Kosmo Kramer
101 nailed it. Let's move on.
Went to the U2 show in DC last night. Guy outside in the parking lot at the end of the show had a pallet of boxes of Krispy Kreme doughnuts that he was selling for 10 bucks a box. Sold out pretty quickly. I wish I had a box of them right now. Mmmmm. doughnuts.
Elie
I am running with scissors!
-DOJ Secure
31 - you are a law student who wants to stop others from entering the profession. Why? The able, and hard-working will thrive and the substandard will not. Such is life.
macho macho man. I want to be a macho man.
92 & 95 = Gullible
119=Unimaginative
Can we ban 110 for self promotion of a large evil law firm. This is the place for envy, self loathing, and rage. Self promotion has no place here. Elie, put down the doughnuts and ban 110.
"Working" for free as a licensed attorney is worse than doing nothing at all. Tell these TTT firms and state "clerkship" programs that attorneys are not willing to work for free!
Would anyone have the gall to invite licensed plumbers, doctors, accountants, etc to sign on for a 6-12 month work commitment with no pay? Of course not because it is ridiculous and exploitative.
agree with 121. I come to here to hear tales of woe from other losers.
"When I abandoned my legal career to start in journalism..."
I'm confused. When has Elie ever been in the field of journalism? He certainly is not now.
thought you might like to know that in suburban northeast town i live in i recently got an e mail from the school board congratulating 2 teachers on getting raises to 119K. Yes you read that right-one hundred nineteen thousand.
Unfortunately, I know about similar situations, usually not with someone that has passed the Bar, it is just the sad state of the legal job market. How could someone go to work for a year, come in every day knowing that on pay day they got nothing? How could you not be totally hostile all the time? How could you not develop some sort of seething work rage against your employer? Who the heck works for free in a capitalist economy? What is the next step? Will law firms require attorneys to pay money?
Uggh, this profession sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unfortunately, I know about similar situations, usually not with someone that has passed the Bar, it is just the sad state of the legal job market. How could someone go to work for a year, come in every day knowing that on pay day they got nothing? How could you not be totally hostile all the time? How could you not develop some sort of seething work rage against your employer? Who the heck works for free in a capitalist economy? What is the next step? Will law firms require attorneys to pay money?
Uggh, this profession sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dont do this no matter what your situation.
if you have 1-3 years of experince you are better off doing nothing than this.
if you have loans-you wont be making anything toward them because you will not be paid. worse-if you sign up for this you are committing to unemployment-and may not be eligible to defer.
if you dont have loans-then its a no brainier dont take this and stay home w/ the fam.
it wont help your resume because if you have 1-3 years experience you already have experience and this only makes you look desperate at a real interview when the boss asks you what you did and what your title was.
it wont helpe you financialy or professionally and is a waste of your time.
65 - if you don't like the offer, don't accept it. And congrats again on that law degree of yours.
Don;'t go to law school. Thre world does not need you, it does not value you. If you had applied for that asstistant manager's gig at the Chipotle diown the street, you would have had 3 years experience and your own restaurant by now. You would be making $100K-plus a year. You wouldn't have to take a bar exam. You would have $ in your wallet and get laid.
Hi,
I am nice old Fillipino lady and David Lat's mom too. I never read such crap before like this blog. This website so over, so sad. David, time for you settle down with nice Fillipino girl. No more date man for you David, no spend time with man. It make you head sick. You no have judgment no more about blog, because sleep too many man.
-Mom
88 - with such flawless networking skills, I'm certain that your solo practice will flourish.
FYI -the SEC employs tons of accountants at Grade 14 earning $120k-$140k only five years out of undergrad...the vast majority of us are not CPAs...something to consider before incurring a bunch of debt to get a graduate/law degree...
the law school scam continues unabated, facilitated by false, inflated law school graduate job stats designed to entice youngsters into signing on the dotted student loan line
I agree this is a new low to even toy with the idea of an unpaid internship when law students have worked very hard to obtain juris doctor. I am still going to go forward with law degree in spite of the deterrents. I feel that the economy will bounce back. All of you are worthy of jobs and you will find them the outlook is grim right now, the economy is still in a tailspin but it will improve. Have faith. There have been other recessions - this too shall pass.
Guys - until this offer is accepted it is not an accurate picture of the "market." It has NOT "come to this." When you see people offering to buy x for $1 it does not mean that x is worth $1. When people SELL x for $1, then you know x is worth $1 (at least to the buyer and seller). So this is essentially a non-story.
I agree with all of the posters that this is a BAD idea. Probably no one will take them up on this. I've worked a few unpaid gigs (gov't, public interest law, etc) and know that when people aren't paying for your time they don't use it well.
136 you retard you got it backwards, if someone offers to sell X for $1 you don't know it's worth $1.. at least not until someone offers to buy it for $1. idiot moron.
wow 137 - some vitriol there. Your phrasing is another equally accurate way to make the same point I made. Switch the words "buy" and "sell" in your penultimate sentence (before the eloquent "idiot moron" sentence) and you've got my point.
Our point is the same - an offer (to sell or buy) does not indicate the "market value" of something until a transaction is consummated.
This reminds me of the stories my grandfather used to tell about when he graduated from law school back in 1934 during the Great Depression. The only legal job he could find was an unpaid position like this one, so he wound up becoming a fireman instead.
I was graduated in 2008 and just found a job a few months ago. One of the factors that helped land me my new (and really good) job was the fact that for the year I was looking for work, I also did volunteer work for a local government agency and free research for a law firm. No, I did not get paid. However, I got a ton of valuable experience, a good writing sample, and lots of job leads while I was there. I also felt better about my life knowing that I had done something productive towards finding a job rather than sitting home and playing world of warcraft all day. I also had more to talk about in my interviews than what I did a year ago in law school. Additionally, towards the end of my unemployment, I was able to apply for jobs (and get interviews) that required a minimum of one year post-graduation legal experience.
138, it isn't the same thing you idiot, once someone offers to buy it at that price, and has the means to consumate the transaction, it is worth that price even if the owner doesn't agree to sell. price is always subjective you idiot. it is just that in some cases it is subjectively the same for a whole lotte people.
you are an idiot. moron.
this site is full of frustrated homos.
Maximus
Anyone that said they wouldn't take an unpaid internship under these circumstances in this economy obviously graduated before the downturn and already has a job or is not interested in furthering their career. You have to fill the gap in your resume and you need experience to get a chance to build experience. There is no hope in sitting around wishing someone will notice you were cum laude and head of the Federalist Society a year after you graduated from law school. By then you are useless.
I think I'd rather take this job:
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwi/lgl/1387615049.html
141 - I'll buy your car for $1. There, it's worth $1. Is that what you're saying? If so, you're the moron.
You sell it to me for $1 (or someone else sells me the same car for $1), then it's worth $1.
No shit, price is subjective. Something is not "worth" what you or I subjectively value it at. Something is "worth" what buyers and sellers can agree on. This legal internship is not "worth" $0 until someone agrees to take it for that.
That's right, 132 - the way to enhance your legal practice is by networking with people who recognise the value of your skills and are prepared to pay a fair price for it, not running to cultivate relationships with people who value them at precisely nil yet will not hesitate to bill others for that work.
Hey, if the market decides that a law degree really is worthless, that's a difficult reality that some lawyers will have to come to terms with. But that's no reason to give away your hard-earned skills for free. If you must volunteer, there are better options.
-88
This is fucking bullshit.
As a senior associate at a big law firm, I am stunned by the shamelessness of this ad.
First, the firm IS going to bill your work to clients -- so you are making them a TON of money without receiving ANYTHING in return. I am not sure I have seen anything so blatantly greedy as this attempt to profit off the misfortune of others.
Second, this whole ruse of getting "experience" that some law students buy into is laughable. Imagine you interview with a new firm and list this fuckwad firm as your reference. The interview is going great and then you are asked what you compensation was at fuckwad firm. You say you worked a year for free, at which time the interviewer laughs in disbelief and immediately tells you to leave the office -- because he rightfully questions your judgment and could never take you seriously after you admit to such an asinine act.
If I were a bored unemployed law student, I might take this job and go stare at the deer all day. If they said one damn word to me about productive, I would ask them if they are fucking kidding, might actually kick them in the junk, and tell them to fuck off. I'm serious.
I am dumbfounded that anyone would seriously consider this ad.
Why aren't people talking about the firing of Eric Wedge?
One wise partner (who was upping my billing rate) told me to never, ever reduce my rate. If I do this for that, why wouldn't do whatever for that.
I would never value my time at $0, and I'm not sure what this Russian and his chicks could teach me anyway.
It's illegal to not compensate employees unless they're getting college credit. This is a total scam.
86 = Kicked out of Cal Western after 1st year.
someone needs to make a program that will randomly generate fake resumes and e-mail address to flood craigslist postings like this. is there a link to the ad?
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/lgl/1389052075.html
Reply to: job-gxyhf-1389052075@craigslist.org
1) Open new word file
2) Type "FUCK YOU!"
3) Save as "resume.doc"
4) Compose e-mail to "info@efronlawfirm.com"
5) Attach "resume.doc"
6) Send
7) Repeat
142 - where is Caretaker?
i didn't know craigslist was in the slave trade business...
"Who the heck works for free in a capitalist economy?"
Um, a lot of people. Pretty much anyone doesn't have good job prospects at the moment. I'll bet this firms gets a ton of interest and decides to take on more than one person.
You can call someone a sucker for working for free, but the real suckers are the ones who don't see the opportunity here. if you do well in the internship who do you think the firm is going to look at first if and when they ever hope to hire someone?
Nobody wants to work for your fucking "top notch" firm, not for free and not at all 157 AKA Boris E. Efron
I sent this article in to Above the Law after seeing it Tuesday night. Thanks for posting it so quickly. I don't know how they expect attorney to live 6-12 months without pay. They probably want them to work long hours too, so they couldn't even get a night job if they wanted to. I think these firms see this a great opportunity for slave labor. Freaking ridiculous.
11 wrote, "I think Sallie Mae should refuse any student loans to students not attending a top 20 law school. This will solve the problem of excess lawyers and more importantly save our country from the incoming student bailout program."
If the Federal Gov. would stop backing the loans that might just happen. I agree. Why not just let the market economy do its thing?
Dear Sirs,
So I was browsing over at indentured-servitude.com and thought to myself, "This part about giving up your freedom for some absurdly small compensation is great and all, but what if I really just want to be completely subservient to a team of dominatrix lawyers? Shouldn't I be willing to pay to be whipped by the best?"
Please review the enclosed resume. I have included a prepayment for the required application/bondage gear fee. And, yes, I can supply my own lubricants.
Submissively Yours,
Lowly Applicant
Say you took them up for a 12 month stint. What paying legal jobs would realistically be open to you at the end of that time?
162, None because nobody is going to trust your judgment after making that commitment
All you law types finally get a dose of reality. You were all so used to your easy 160K starting salaries ... which is higher than a lot of MBA salaries, and at least the top tier MBAs have solid work experience and made much more of an impact than a first year associate who usually has 0 work experience!
This isn't a short term adjustment, its a long term shift and gone are the days first year lawyers think they're the best of the best with their 160k salaries and private offices.
130 - Preach ON! Some people have no idea just how jacked up their future is going to be by going to law school and possibly sinking themselves into a DEEP financial hole. I have run into people that are taking a year off to study for the LSAT so they can get into a t25 school. They are banking on the idea that the economy will improve by the time they get out. They are usually smug, pretentious, and self-serving. They should start stocking up on the Vaseline right now.
I agree completely with 147. The firm most likely WOULD bill for an unpaid lawyer's time and attempt to justify it on the basis that, even if the lawyer isn't being paid, the firm is still incurring an expense by having them around, in the form of training, overhead (paying for the lawyer's office and computer), etc. As though that is somehow a substitute for paying someone a salary. Ridiculous.
144-Something is up with that craigslist add b/c it says it is in indiana but both phone numbers are area codes in NJ.