fursty

Robert Mugabe did have a beard.

The Pear Tickler

People with law school debt are of low birth. That is all.

1 = worst shtick on ATL. Go back to IL Civ Pro and STFU.

1) You are an ignorant d-bag. JD is the third largest firm in the world.

As for this post. In particular: "If you are fairly compensated and happy with what you are earning, why should you care about how much the guy down the hall is pulling down? Then again, if you truly don’t care, then why should salaries be such a big secret?" The first sentence is dead on. People at JD know they are trading off huge bonuses for job security, which in my opinion, is well worth it, especially in this economy. As for the second sentence, when things are made public, that's when people start to care.

How many of us left who left JD for "greener pastures" (i.e. bonuses) in 2005-2008 wouldn't kill to be back there right now? Anyone?

When I was at JD, we definitely discussed salaries (though it took years to build the trust to do so, because of how taboo we all knew it was). There were big differences: some were close to "market," while others received $2500 raises. It was a quick indication of who was "in" and who was "out" in the eyes of the firm.

4 - That may be true, but your comment suggests that JDs without law school debt are somehow better. I must protest that conclusion. I almost went to law school out of boredom, then I remembered that sailing with hot babes is way more fun. Being of high birth, I cannot envision why one of similar status would pursue any other activity. On that note, I need to get back to the helm and enjoy the dwindling days of bikini season - the interest from my bottomless trust fund won't spend itself, and I've already given more than I can write off to our president's slush funds.

I call bs. Jones Day has been conducting stealth layoffs over the past few months in all of its offices. Small batches, only a few at a time.

Agree with #1 - but Jones Day would definitely fall in the ATL category, not the BTL category.

MOAR MOOBS

10 - What groups? What you'd expect (M&A, PE and RE), or are they using it as an excuse to get rid of under-performers in other groups (or are the other groups slow, too)?

Any info appreciated.

Although JD has not conducted mass layoffs they have been working aggressively to trim the fat from habitually unproductive lawyers, partners and associates alike. Some associates did not get raises this year. Future associate raises have been deferred until next July, at the earliest (under the guise that the firm wants to put associates and staff on the same review schedule). And make no mistake about it, the firm is substantially off its budget for the year. Partners recently got envelopes announcing a reduction in their 2009 compensation. Jones Day is not immune from the effects of the failed model that is Biglaw.

"Hello Cleveland. Hello Cleveland."

-- Derek Smalls

But how will i compare myself to others unless my salary information is published???

Actually, in the last office where I worked semi-secret compensation (salary info always leaks) was a way for the firm to discriminate against groups that they didn't like.

so it is possible that at JD, people are paid at 160k in their first year but 140k when they become second years?

The article notes that the business card for Joe Sims, the lawyer heading up the West Coast expansion, doesn’t indicate his title or business area. His explanation: “We don’t do titles here.”

Yeah, my kid's Preschool doesn't do grades either. Must be one worthless business card (maybe has some smiley faces on it?). Hope the cleaning staff has some made up to carry around as well.

I do like not having business areas though, makes it easier to put whatever partners/associates are available on any case to minimize attorneys needed and max out billable hours. And M&A, IP, tax, whatever, its all pretty much the same and those smart people should be able to figure it all out...

Moosecock Jones?

Asslobster Day?

17 - no. you just might make 160k two years in a row.

"Whatever the reason, it is an undeniable fact that Jones Day has avoided the mass layoffs that have plagued other law firms."

How do we know that to be true? If the firm is so secretive about compensation, why would they be less so about layoffs?

Within the past six weeks I have visited two of JD's largest four offices. Make no mistake: both have had layoffs. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out whether they are "mass" layoffs or not.

To be fair, killing off small batches of lawyers here & there is regular behavior, even before the economy. That Jones Day hasn't retained 100% of its people is not remarkable; that it hasn't fired 200 of them is incredibly remarkable.

Well, I definitely think the secrecy at JD concerning compensation has at a minimum helped them conduct layoffs under the radar. Its like the secrecy already in place just carries over into their layoffs.

Sure, no mass layoffs at JD, but substantial numbers at various JD offices among associates, staff attorneys, and partner demotions. Know that they are probably chalked up to "performance" in order to save face.

23-- You can't know what you're talking about. "Partner demotions" are literally impossible under JD's structure as I understand it.

Speaking of secrecy, has Jones Day told its summers whether they were getting offers yet?

They were taking their sweet time--even longer than most firms--last I knew.

JD is not unique in its black box partner compensation structure.

That happened a couple weeks ago, 25.

My firm keeps its partner compensation secret enough internally to keep the partners from infighting about it. It helps a lot. BUT, my firm: (1) still publicly discloses PPP and certain revenue numbers; (2) doesn't play games about associate compensation; and (3) to the extent it talks about this policy or the effects of it internally, it notes that the purpose is to encourage collegiality, minimize infighting over credit for fees from a particular client and prevent partners being pissed at each other about who makes slightly or substantially more.

You can do those things with an approach like my firm takes. Jones Day keeps salary a secret to screw people, especially associates. To suggest otherwise is completely disingenuous.

24 - You are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about. Partner demotions are indeed possible, and this happened in several instances this year. More are on the horizon.

- Former JD Partner (and never demoted)

Im actually a little nervous. JD just called me and my offer. I'm not really sure what to make of it.

30 - I'm not really sure what to make of the fact that JD just called your offer.

31, I meant to say JD my offer.

"Jones Days"?

JD San Francisco brings in lawyers but no staff. This is how they've been able to survive, at the expense of support.

How much is your job security worth? That's basically what this article is about...No 'news' here. www.Goodsharks.com

"Jones Days"?

13--From what I know, it appears to be across all groups, just "trimming the fat" every few months or so. JD is probably doing something that all firms should be doing right now.

I would never be a partner at a firm where the partnership does not know what other partners make. Never.

- The Rainmaker (I know occupy Partner Emeritus' corner office).

It's interesting that abovethelaw will report on this when they removed comments concerning JD's screwing of its summer associates this summer.

39, how did Jones Day screw its SA this year?

If you are a "partner" or "shareholder" but are forbidden from seeing your firm's books to know what it pays or distributes, then you do not own anything - you are merely an employee. If you have the great fortune to additionally be "required" to make capital contributions to the firm, you are not only an employee, but a eunuch as well.

Jones Day NY: 25/25 received offers.

Wow. Anyone remember the party slogan from 1984? "War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength."

Jones day associates (and non-managing partners), imagine a boot stamping on a human face (yours) ... for ever.

Jones Day partners decided to take a hit in their compensation to avoid associate layoffs. So makes sense they would keep that quiet from other firms' partners, though from an associate's viewpoint, it was a great thing to do.

30/32 - you make no sense but if you got an offer from JD (and based on your post I hope you did not) you should take it.

You do not go from 160k to 140k you just get smaller raises for under-performance but it is more or less lock step the first few years.

Also 1st years get 170k not 160k.

100% of the summer class got offers.

Partners have been switched to "of counsel" but that happens to every partner that turns 65 - firm policy from the pre-recession years to make room for new and younger partners to advance.

Has anyone heard back from a Jones Day call back?

I had one in Texas more than two weeks ago, and I haven't heard a thing.

45, if you read my post,. you clearly see that I my offer.

Is intentional typos that mimic Elie the new schtick?

45, really? 170k? nalp says 160k.

i know at least one summer who did not receive an offer.

Yeah JD definitely did NOT offer 100% across the board.

These firms like Jones Day and Winston that do not do public layoffs (like Kirkland) are actually horrid because you are trying to juggle client work and keeping your job with the constant threat of randomly being shitcanned for trumped up reasons. It makes for a shit morale and basically goes against the common logic of just doing one big layoff and being done with it.

JD is a good firm but JD partners are putting alot of faith in the benevolent leader model -- one virtue of an open compensation system is that it helps keep the folks in management on their toes about getting the comp right. At my firm, we know what every partner makes and I think that's a good thing. Teamwork is a byproduct of system and integrity. If you have a reasonable system for credit sharing and good people, you don't need a black box compensation system. There has to be checks and balances in any model and discussing comp is not mutually exclusive to being a team player or a good lawyer. Remember, sunshine is the best disinfectant.

Jones Day's offer rate for '09 summers was atrocious.

Secrecy is a euphemism for divide and conquer.

49. 45 is lying. Starting salary is 160k, unless he/she is also including the summer stipend, which is not customary in quoting first year salary.

In response to several posts:

JD did not make offers to all summer associates.

JD has "demoted" at least two partners (under age 65) to "of counsel."

JD has had stealth layoffs for "performance reasons."

JD has frozen staff and associate salaries.

lol, whatever makes you feel better about cashing your unemployment checks

Let's all pat Jones Day on the back for being cheap and less profitable than other firms! It's actually a good thing not giving bonuses and paying less competitive salaries! What a terrific law firm.

Given this firm's well-deserved reputation for hiding critical information away from all but a tiny group of lawyers, I'm amazed that anyone would take the appearance of no layoffs at face value. Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

Jones Day is a phenomenally run firm, perhaps the best-run out there. And the attorneys and work environment are top-notch. There is no eat-what-you-kill, so work is unhesitatingly shared between offices and partners. Partners do not have clients; the firm has clients. The no-bonus policy shows Jones Day's commitment to its clients -- bonuses only encourage associates to (consciously or unconsciously) to bill unnecessary hours. You could probably make slightly more at another firm, but that firm would likely have more nasty politics, which Jones Day is virtually devoid of. If you want to work at a big firm, Jones Day is the place to be.

I should know these things -- I used to work at Jones Day. I left only because I wanted the litigation opportunities of a smaller firm with smaller cases. Like other big firms, Jones Day has too many enormous cases, where associates are left to toil on document reviews for months on end, not getting even a sniff of the courtroom. These cases are the most prestigious out there and make tons of money for the firm, so I don't fault Jones Day for taking them. What I do fault Jones Day for is not reducing their rates to take smaller cases, so associates can get some experience. I knew associates at Jones Day who went YEARS between taking depositions. That lack of experience was unacceptable to me, so I left.

But besides these negatives (which every big firm has), Jones Day is great. I agree with everything Joe Sims said in his leaked California Minute memo.

61 - I'm also a former JDer, and agree with you on most points (though I was corporate). What I disagree with is your comment about rates: JD has some of the lowest BigLaw rates out there. When I lateraled out as a junior associate, my rate more than doubled. In a big market.

My understanding is that the bread-and-butter, old-time (mostly) Midwestern clients would never pay higher rates, or would start only giving JD big cases/deals instead of engaging them as general outside counsel.

I think the firm should do a better job of varying rates depending on where deals are sourced (e.g., have one rate for a 100-year client of the firm in Dayton, but a different rate when representing Morgan Stanley).

I used to work at JD and let me tell you, they are not the smartest people. They also do not care about diversity, and recruiters make racist remarks in front of minorities. Avoid it.

I am a current JDer . . . and following are some true facts: many partners demoted to Of Counsel before 65, which is mandatory retirement age for partners. This saves the firm $$. There have been many 'stealth' layoffs across the offices--both attys and staff. JD is 'off budget' for the year but not by very much because of all the cost cutting (including cutting most benefits to staff)--PPP are UP this year. Only a few 'highly compensated' partners took a recent cut, and it was small and 'didn't hurt' according to one partner who took a cut. Do not believe all of JD's disinformation. The work place environment at JD is horrendous, indeed there is little if any communication between admin and employees. You find out something has changed as you do the work. Morale is at an all time low. The only thing important at JD right now is the amount of $$ in partners' pockets.

It's a Jones Day world and you're living in it.