Damn I'm good.

-1

Thirdsy?

Mystal has Walrus Flu.

IP is indeed very variable.

(a) foreign, national-stage US filings are way down;
(b) foreign filing of US apps has ground to a standstill in some key tech areas

Many small shops offer QOL at a lower salary. And most have dramatically reduced their hours. Many also pay contingent on the hours you bill, as opposed to strict lockstep. So overall comp is down.

I'm not wearing pants.

Skadden Demure

There is always some crazy stuff going on at a certain small "boutique" IP firm in Philly.

As a would-be patent litigator at a ip firm, who is stuck in prosecution b/c we don't have a lot of litigation at my satellite office, I would say patent prosecution isn't the practice of law, it is learning arcane, useless technology so that a client can have something to defend.

It is extremely uninspiring work, and it is impossible to jump to the real practice of law. Proceed with caution.

I left a 500+ attorney firm for a small IP boutique a few years ago. Fortunately, I was able to port about $500K in business when I made the move.

What prompted the move? It's nearly impossible to make equity at a large firm these days, even if you have a book of business, and a friend of mine made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

I'll probably never make the money I would make as a senior equity partner at Big Law, but at least I have managed to avoid the "600 times your billing rate" salary that you get as an associate, of counsel, or non-equity at Big Law. Plus, I get origination credit, which adds a significant chunk to my paycheck. I do not know of any non-equity lawyers who are doing as well as I am, at least financially. That said, we do not enjoy the leverage of a big firm, so the most we can hope to get is what we bring in, less overhead. At the big firms, overhead is paid for by associates, non-equities, and of counsel, so the upside is potentially much higher.

I have the freedom to do more flat fee work, which helps these days. Plus, I've only had one conflict that caused me to lose out on a new client opportunity. In contrast, the large firm created more conflicts than opportunities, and the equity partners kept trying to take the client origination credit. The downside is that we don't have a team of individuals devoted to sales and marketing, so client development is admittedly somewhat of a challenge.

In terms of quality of life, I still work hard, but have more lattitude to take off and enjoy life than at the big firm. Management is more laid back, too, since all decisions are made between three partners - it's easier to reach concensus.

Overall, I think making the move to a smaller firm was a good decision, at least for me.

Is PI the opposite of IP? Or is it IP backwards, reversed, inverted, or transposed? It's these sort of difficult questions that patent lawyers are called to answer.

I do transactional "soft" IP at a large firm, so maybe my comments aren't that valid here. Regardless, I'm SO happy that I am an IP generalist. Sure, I'm not a member of the patent bar, and I don't litigate, and I don't do trademark filings. A lot of the people who say they practice in IP are doing things that I don't do, and a lot of them would say that I'm not a real IP lawyer. That is fine with me, because I really enjoy my general transactional IP practice. I may not be able to do a few specific things, but those things are either a totally different kind of law (litigation) or areas of IP practice which are commoditized and (at least to me) boring.

I am looking for an IP lawyer to help me with several creations of mine:

(1) Copyrighting and publishing my Mozart and Bach-inspired musical trilogy in D minor, the saddest of all musical keys (it makes people weep instantly, I don't know why).

(2) Trademarking a line of amplifiers with volume and other control knobs that go to 11.

(3) Patenting a miniature Stonehenge monument. I have already created the drawings on a coffee shop napkin.

(4) Sending cease and desist letters to any guitarists who have stolen my signature solo routine of playing the guitar using a violin as my picking implement.

If interested please send your credentials to my manager, Ian Faith.

Nigel

6 is correct. domestic and foreign applications are way down, especially in the chemical/biological areas. While work as been relatively steady over the past couple of months, I am expecting a huge decline in future prosecutorial work (about 15-20%). Also, I have heard the PTO has cut all overtime, suspended law-school tuition reimbursement as well as implemented many other cost cutting measures due to an unfavorable outlook.

No. 8 - please provide further details.

No. 13 - you don't do patent work, you don't litigate and you don't do trademark filings, so what exactly do you do? How do you define transactional IP and what does that entail? I am not trying to be an ass, just curious. Thanks in advance

What are some good small IP shops in the silicon valley area?? Any that deal with high-tech specialties??

Got laid off from a bigger IP firm and currently working in a small IP firm doing primarily prosecution and opinion work, as well as TM. The pay is comparable, work environment is better, and we are doing quite well. Not as many clients, the technology isn't as sophisticated, but our clients rely on us more so we do get a broad range of work, and a lot of it, from them. Is the pay lucrative and can you live off of it? hell yeah. If i worked the same hours I did at my previous firm, I'd be making more than what I made before (150+).

13 - so you are a transactional lawyer who happens to sell IP?

9 - you are preparing yourself for in-house work down the road and that is a good thing, no?

I work at a small-ish IP boutique. My office does patent, trademarks, and copyright with various matters dealing with licensing. We do very very little litigation and typically only have 2-3 attorneys working on litigation matters at any give point.

Although the trademark and copyright side isn't as busy, they are doing okay. The patent group to which I belong is actually doing quite well. As a matter of fact, since I started in 2007, we have hired 6 new attorneys (5 of which are dedicated solely to patent prosecution). Now the work is boring, but the hours are good and the pay is adequate so I can't complain!

Patent prosecution is very much an acquired taste. While the traditional balance has been a smaller shop = less pay + increased QOL, the type of work smaller shops typically perform should be taken into account when making any decisions. I find prosecution mind numbingly boring.

I used to work at a large firm having an IP practice. Generally, the small IP firms have as many IP attorneys as the big firms do for a specific city.

At the bigger firm, i was pigeon holed into writing electrical/software patents, but now I can to perform all facets of IP law. The money was just a little better, roughly around 180k in the bigger firm. The current smaller firm pays about 160k, so it wasn't much of a drop off in compensation. Plus I only have to write a patent a week instead of two a week that I used to do.

My preeminent, peer law firm has a functioning IP practice. However it has been my practice to shuffle the consistent underperformers into this area of practice. IP has long been underperforming, and therefore deserves the underperformers. It is not as decumbent as the real backwaters of practice such as real estate or immigration, but it is close.

My background - 10+ years out. Large firm, small firm, and in-house. I've pretty much seen it all in terms of IP.

It used to be that nearly all small IP practices were highly specialized (i.e, EE/CS, biotech), such that it was next to impossible for a generalist to gain entry, even with a decent book of business. But now more shops are opening which reflect the technology mixes of larger firms. Whether they'll survive in the long run is another story.

Hours requirements tend to be lower at small firms due to less onerous overhead and an understanding by the partnership that an hour billed in an IP setting is not easy to come by. But don't get too excited, you'll either have to cut your hours or work off the clock to be able to meet the flat fee quotes given to clients who use any and all opportunities to threaten to bolt unless you basically give them everything short of a happy ending.

And although associates at small IP firms tend to have good job security, there are fewer realistic options should things not work out. You tend not to have the credentials or the connections to find a great in house job, and many small firms ultimately get swallowed by large general practice firms, in which case it's either adios to the associates once the dust settles, or adjustment to a very different lifestyle. Often the only option for those who don't make it at small firms is to go solo.

So how does one get a job at a small firm? Having "big firm" training is almost always a requirement. Very few small firms want to show the ropes to anyone. Portables can't hurt, but are not always required. It's also good to be able to show you're not someone who's afraid to get his/her hands dirty. Can you do a PTO filing without a secretary's help? At many small firms, that's the rule, not the exception.

Last word of advice - watch out for firms run by folks who are bad managers and/or business people. Having technical chops is great, but most people who start these small firms have never been actively involved in managing a firm or groups of associates. The crash and burn rate is non-nominal.

2009 was the worst year that I have seen in the 10 years that I have been in the patent business, but my anecdotal suspicions indicate two things:

1.) The situation is starting to improve.
2.) The situation, even with our diminished circumstances, is not as bad for hard IP types as it is for, say, financial services types.

IP transactional work involves a lot of licensing work (think joint ventures, strategic patent and know-how licenses, large ERP system licenses), related contracts for development work, and IP diligence on M&A transactions. You're a transactional lawyer who specializes in certain types of transactions and large, ongoing "relationship" contracting.

I am at an IP firm and agree that chem/biotech filings are down. The EE side still is going strong. We have not laid anyone off, we have not cut salaries and our billings are doing well. We even had a large summer class - for us - and made offers to all of them.

While overall prosecution appears to down a little, we have definitely had a pick up in the amount of litigation that we are handling.

I even have a good chance of making my hours and getting a bonus.

Life could be worse.

I recently switched from a large law firm with an IP practice that was struggling to a small prosecution firm that has a robust practice. The pay is less that a full-time employee at the large firm, but since few IP attorneys were able to make billable hours at the large firm, it ends up being more. In any event, my salary is 150+ and I will have opportunities to get bonuses at the small firm, while at the large firm I had trouble getting work. Prosecution work at this small firm has not slowed down. I can get as much work as I can handle.

The hours at the small firm are fairly similar to the large firm. The small firm has an 1800 hour "billed" requirement, and the large firm had a 1950 hour "billable" requirement.

The atmosphere is more laid back and friendly at the small firm, and there's very little administrative crap, since there are only a few partners.

Since I enjoy the type of prosecution work I am doing, this has been a great move for me.

28, what city is your firm in?

13 here, 27 is right. In my case, I do about 60% all kinds of licensing and IT or IP services transactions (which is really quite broad - everything from software to biofuels to offshore financial services), about 20% pure internet stuff (also involving licensing) and about 20% advising on those issues in other types of deals (traditional large or public M&A (not much these days), JVs (lots these days) and private equity (some these days). I usually have 20 or so deals going at a time.

No. 24 is an imposter. Will the real PE please stand up?

2L here. Currently deciding between big Palo Alto branches of mega firms and some small boutiques (~100 attorney) firm for IP Lit (offers in hand). What would people recommend?

I'm a bit worried about exit options for the small firm if something goes wrong. As someone mentioned, less connections, etc. Plus, could you ever enter big law IP from a small bouique?

I want information regarding the following three firms: Fish, Kenyon, and Oblon.

I had previously considered Fish and Kenyon as clear choices over Oblon, due to both prestige and salary. However, stories of pay cuts, deferrals, and layoffs at Fish and Kenyon have made me reconsider the patent-prosecution safety of a firm like Oblon. Is my analysis fair?

33 - I am looking to apply for summer spots in Palo Alto next year.. can you give me some names of smaller IP boutiques?

34 - my understanding is that you are still looking at 10k less with approximately equal QOL and narrower experience at Oblon (and all other patent mills), compared to a firm like Fish. Finnegan remains the IP gold standard for QOL and 160k, but they are probably saturated. That being said, of the patent mills, I've heard of cuts only at Sughrue. (for the majority of lawyers who don't know, several "patent mills" listed in top 20 here http://www.iptoday.com/articles/2009-3-top-patent-firms.asp)

Small firms are great until you sleep with 1 or 2 people who work there and everyone finds out.

Skadden DC is one big orgy- I highly recommend it to anyone- take a staff, temporary positon - whatever- it's well worth it.

35- Carr & Farrell, Kokka & Backus, Townsend, umm... use the google to look at the intertubes for others. Down in Sunnyvale there's Haverstock & Owens, Blakely Sokoloff, San Jose there's a little firm I know called Zilka Kotab... lots and lots of little 8-20 attorney offices.

9- I highly disagree with you. There's nothing more fun than when someone cooks something up in their garage and comes through our doors seeking a patent. Although working for the large clients pays the bills, the garage inventors with their enthusiasm really gets you going.

You can't go from small IP to a big firm unless if you already have big firm experience.

39 is just wrong.

LOL at people asking for recommendations of firms in certain geographic areas. Ever been on the USPTO web-site? Try searching for practitioners by state; that will tell you the names of their firms. If you don't know enough to avail yourself of that free resource, I pity the firm that hires you.

20, 9 here. I interviewed for in-house positions when I was a fourth year, but didn't get any offers. No interviews last year or this year. Could be b/c I don't have a hard engineering degree (civil from crappy state school).

38: I mainly work on derivative inventions, not brilliant garage inventors. Could be my bigtique clients.

20, 9 here. I interviewed for in-house positions when I was a fourth year, but didn't get any offers. No interviews last year or this year. Could be b/c I don't have a hard engineering degree (civil from crappy state school).

38: I mainly work on derivative inventions, not brilliant garage inventors. Could be my bigtique clients.

ATL! i have an interview on friday at a small (<10 attorneys) litigation firm, which also does land use and administrative law. can you please do an open thread on small litigation firms? thx...

for those working in "hard" IP-boutiques, how important is your law school? i go to gw, which supposedly has a "top" IP program... will this matter at all when i'm trying to find a job? i have a BSEE, and have always thought jobs woudln't be a problem but with what i've been reading lately im getting a little freaked out...

ATL! i have an interview on friday at a small (<10 attorneys) litigation firm, which also does land use and administrative law. can you please do an open thread on small litigation firms? thx...

45, as with all things right now, it is easier to land an interview from a higher-ranked law school.

Patent prosecution is an entirely different animal than trademark and copyright litigation and prosecution. After four years, a smart patent prosecutor can go out on his own or work for a three person shop, and do well. That's usually not the case for trademark and copyright pros and lit.

45 - GW doesn't have the cachet it once did in IP. If you're looking at a large GP firm, you won't turn many heads, except perhaps in the DC area. You'd need to couple your JD with an MIT degree or something with comparable prestige to really make an impact at biglaw. That being said, the GW and EE combo should get you a job somewhere, so lighten up.

42,

ROFL that the USPTO database provides any insight about who is any good and who may be hiring.

9- 38 here. I didn't mean to insinuate that we have these geniuses coming through the door. Just enthusiastic. We have one client I WISH I could tell you all about... still unpublished so I can't- let's just say it has to do with a "flash of genius" a grotesquely obese man had when he couldn't wipe his own butt because he couldn't reach. Only in America would someone sit on the pot and think, "Man, I'm so fat, I can't reach my own butt. How do I get rich off this?"

50 - sorry to nitpick your nitpick, but go back and check 17 and 33.

Like 10, I recently switched from Biglaw to a smaller IP boutique. I came in as the only litigator in a firm of prosecutors. And I absolutely love it. The people are good, decent human beings (when was the last time you didn't have to watch your back on a daily basis?), I'm busier than I have been in years, and I'm (the last one) out the door at 6pm. Sure, the clients are a bit smaller and it's tough sometimes to get them to pay, but we were up against that more and more in Biglaw anyway. Plus, the clients I brought are THRILLED at my new billing rate.
In short--best move I've ever made.

52,

I am pretty sure that you love nitpicking. It probably makes you feel like a man.

There is only one way to practice IP -- within the borders of my glorious regime. My IP litgation battalions are dedicated, battle-tested and fanatical. Ignore the "transactional IP" comments -- they are the ramblings of the weak and the degenerate. They will disappear, IP Boutiques will disappear, GP IP groups will disappear. Only I will remain!

Interesting retort 52. I'll take that as "you're right".

I’m an associate working in a small IP boutique (30 attorneys) in the upper Midwest. We do mostly prosecution and some advising on litigation. Apparently, our firm had done a lot of litigation until a few years ago; however, clients decided to go with much larger, more expensive firms to do their litigation work. Nonetheless, business seems to be doing well. Unlike some of the large firms in town, we have not had any layoffs or pay cuts. In fact, we have recently been hiring and still operate a summer program. Although you never know what the future may hold, at this time I am not worried about job security.

Currently, our billable is 1500. Starting compensation is $89K with potential for bonuses, which is lower than other firms in the area, however, we have fewer billable hours and I am able to have a life outside of work. Admittedly, the work can be dull at times, but overall I am happy with my decision to pursue IP and work at this firm—especially in this economy.

45 and 49, 9 here. It's my experience that your law school means exactly dilsnick when it comes to patent prosecution. I was near the bottom of my class from a third tier law school, Santa Clara, (is that what TTT is? Third Tier Trash or something?)

The most important thing patent prosecution firms are looking for is technical experience. I worked 5 years as an engineer while getting my masters at night and going to law school at night. When I was going through the interview process, all any hiring partner asked me was "did you get your grades?"

"umm... yeah..." (me with my C+ average at best)

"Ok. When can you start?"

If you have no tech experience, I implore you to try and get some. Just 2 years will do wonders. You can speak "the lingo" with your nerd clients who walk in the door. I'm no technical guru, but when clients talk shop, I can follow along, and they really appreciate that. Also, read Dilbert comic strips. They're uncannily spot on. If you're going to GW, go work at the PTO. Trust me on this. It may be a painful 2 years, but grin and bear it and you'll be very grateful you did later.

anyone have the scoop on Oliff & Berridge?

No patent bar = useless. Technical mind = technical solutions. Without these qualifications you waste real IP attorney time all day long. Soft IP people (not the subject matter) might as well practice "Cosby Law."

57- Why not just say that you are at Kinney & Lange?

another GWer here. i came to GW because of the IP program... what do you mean it doesn't have the cachet it used to? i turned down schools like wustl, bu, emory to come to GW because of its ip program... big mistake?? (Mech. E. with master's here...)

A friend of mine works at Oliff and hates it. They have limited access to the internet (there are about two computers through which you can access the internet) and the place is evidently run like a sweat shop. I think salary is ok, but below big market rates (125?).

59 - avoid.

61 - 57 could be at Westman Chaplin and Kelly.

58, you are not 9, for 9 is I! However, except for the TTT law school (I actually went to a contender for law school), we could be brothers!

I agree with 58 - in patent prosecution, your technical background experience is as important (maybe more important) than your law school particularly if you have a doctorate degree in the sciences.

I have trained associates over the years, and if you don't know chemistry, I can't teach that to you at this stage. Sorry, go back to undergrad/grad. school. Plus inventors pretty much expect you to speak their language - if they have to explain things too many times, then you are gonna be out of the game quickly.

Remember, law school doesn't teach you anything about being an actual lawyer anyway and certainly isn't very enlightening if you want to do patent prosecution.

I worked at biglaw for about 4 years and then switched to a small boutique (25-30 IP attorneys). Couldn't have been happier. Yes, the pay is lower, but the pressure to bill is less (note that I didn't say you were expected to work less) and it is easier to get work due to the lower billing rates.

Order of Best Majors for Prosecution

(1) Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science
(2) Chemical Engineering
(3) Physics
(4) BioEngineering
(5) Mechanical Engineering
(6) Industrial or Civil Engineering
(7) Soft Sciences such as Biology, Chemistry, etc. Need at least a Phd to get in the prosecution work. These guys usually get stuck to mechanical inventions, litigation, or doc review
(6)

51 - I think I saw that commercial.

63, 64,

But is it better than BigLaw? Does BigLaw -> Oliff = jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire?

-59

I used to work at a small IP boutique, doing patent prosecution. It's very hard to meet your billable requirements doing patent prosecution, in good times or bad. Clients tend to have set expectations as to how much they're willing to pay for an application or a response to an office action and how much time you should be spending on it; if it takes you longer than that you're out of luck and your hours are getting "discounted." Unless you have a huge volume of easy office actions or a client that doesn't pay attention to his bills, be prepared to bill over your targetted requirement in order to meet the requirement.

The general thought process for patent prosecution is the same as other areas of law. I'm now in-house and do a variety of transactional, licensing, and other corporate work relating to IP, and the transition wasn't that difficult. However, your skill set is very specialized, so if you're working in a boutique you should try to get experience in areas outside of patent prosecution. Once you do other types of work you'll realize how similar it is so you can talk about your transferable skills during an interview, and you'll have something else on your resume than "drafted patent applications and responded to office actions."

The one thing about patent prosecution that I miss is that the hours are really predictable. You typically know your deadlines months in advance, so it's easy to plan vacations and set your hours. Every so often you have a client that is going to give a talk about their new invention and you have to rush and file a provisional, but for the most part there aren't that many patent prosecution emergencies that require working late.

What are the exit options for an IP litigator at a biglaw firm? Are there in-house positions for that sort of thing?

62,

You'll be fine. GW is better than all of the schools that you listed, esp for IP. To the extent that it might be helpful in a competitive job market, try to pass the patent bar before the end of 1L. Additionally, work hard, and do your best to end up on a journal of some sort.

If you're able to walk into 2L GW OCI with journal + patent bar for IP position, you'll have your pick from a large number of offers from both GP and bigtique firms. Or at least that was my experience when I went through OCI in 2006. I know that the market has changed, but you should still be highly employable with the appropriate credentials.

Does anyone work for a copyright boutique or a trademark boutique? Do those even exist?

I have been working for a small IP firm (10-15 attorneys) for about a year. Right now I am picking up prosecution work where I can because the litigation is drying up.

The pay is comparable to big law when you consider that billable requirements are ~25% less. We have not had to cut salaries or any attorneys but if things don't pickup by mid 2010 I'm afraid it could be coming.

68 - that is sad, and thinking very small. Established, savvy companies want someone smart that can handle the technology - after all, you are a primarily a lawyer, even if you do prosecution.

Your client's scientists are the subject-matter experts (i.e., I doubt you got your Masters or Ph.D. in the same area). When you forget this distinction you are destined for small-town patents that never see the light of day or litigation. More and more companies are understanding this and hesitate to pay the inflated billing rates of lawyers with higher science degrees.

@68:

Chemistry is hardly a soft science. You can do quite well with just a BS in chemistry, as there are a lot of chemical patents to be filed in areas like cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, etc.

Biology is another story, and it kind of depends on what kind of degree you have. Straight up biology is pretty much useless for patent prosecution, but molecular biology, biochemistry, and the more specialized areas are not "soft" either.

If your firm is only giving prosecution work to the PhD's in those areas, then they just don't have that much prosecution work to begin with or they have a glut of PhD's on hand.

Agree with the poster who said to work at the USPTO as an Examiner. And work experience is HUGE. Try to do a co-op for undergrad, or work for a few years before law school. These are the things that firms and clients love to see in their associates.

As for passing the patent bar during law school, that no longer really shows much of anything, particularly since it's now a multiple choice fest where passers are no more likely to be able to hit the ground running than those who haven't sat for it.

68: Chemistry is a "soft science"? And btw, I think you mean "life sciences" when you say "soft sciences." Chemistry is a borderline life science--it is necessary for dealing with pharma, but is much broader than the life sciences area.

Soft sciences generally refers to areas such as psychology and other 'social' sciences. And wtf is "political science' anyway?

This is 76 again - I forgot to mention that I spend most of the time in my litigation docket cleaning up (or exploiting) the messes of Ph.D.-holding bio/chem prosecution people. You guys can create an unbelievable mess since you are so focused on the science, you forget the big picture, statutes, CFR, and case law (among many other things).

68: Chemistry is a "soft science"? And btw, I think you mean "life sciences" when you say "soft sciences." Chemistry is a borderline life science--it is necessary for dealing with pharma, but is much broader than the life sciences area.

Soft sciences generally refers to areas such as psychology and other 'social' sciences. And wtf is "political science' anyway?

I'm a 3L at a low-20's law school. My undergrad is in Chemical Engineering. I came straight from undergrad to law school. I was no-offered at the mid-size GP firm I worked at this summer.

Right now I'm applying to IP boutiques like crazy. If I'm not able to land a job would I be better off getting a Masters in ChemE? Am I right to assume that a LLM in IP is pretty much worthless? Any other recommendations?

I love how almost NOBODY is talking IP Litigation. The reality is that IP lit has been hit hard: plenty of people laid off and when a firm (big or small) has openings, those firms are getting flooded with qualified resumes. It really sucks.

- Laid off IP litigator

82- I posted earlier up the chain about this. If you're going to get a masters in ChemE (or go straight to a PhD program if possible, aren't those also about 3 years?) WORK during the day and go at night. Prestige of the school is of no issue. Get real world ChemE experience. It's the absolute best thing you can do for yourself. It should pay decently, and there are plenty of jobs out there. Be mobile, look all over the country. Don't be shy about it. Consolidate your loans and you should have no problem making the monthlies. Your resume will end up in a different pile every time because of that 2-3 years of valuable industry experience.

82 - There are lots of other things you could do. Go clerk for a judge for a year (even state court). Work at a general practice firm or DA's office while you get your master's degree. The litigation experience could help you break in later if you've been in a courtroom AND have a masters. Be creative.

85 - it's that easy? cool, i'll go do that then!

-not 82

82 here. So the consensus is that Engineering Experience > Engineering Graduate Degree > LLM? How does non-IP legal work fit into that hierarchy? Obviously there is no one-size-fits-all, I'm just trying to weigh the relative pros and cons of different options.

82: An IP LLM has generally become worthless. It used to mean something when most law schools didn't have much of any IP curriculum. Now, it just means that you weren't able to get a job straight out of law school. Adding an IP LLM probably won't make a difference.

Also, I would say, based on Loyola Chicago's Patent job fair this year, that the ranking of your law school DOES matter these days. Maybe that's just because they can now get all of the people they need with technical degrees from top tier law schools.

68 - only a few math and physics courses separate the chemistry and bio majors from (2) and (4). Both of which are almost common sense - who can't do differential equations or get a grasp on relativity to the extent necessary to practice law? Throw in CAD and a couple dynamics courses and you have a diverse M.E.? EE and Comp. Sci/Eng. is almost a joke given the rapid advancements.

Sorry to say that your (68) patents (if you get clients and are smart enough to understand and maneuver patentability) probably will be taken down some day by a "soft science" biology or chemistry person at a better firm.

The fact that civil eng. is ranked above bio or chem is ridiculous - look at the headlines everyday!

68 - You will learn more in your second year of law school (or once you leave the patent office).

I've been a sole practitioner focusing on patent litigation since 1995. Some tips for those interested in this sort of thing:
1) You don't need to be a techie, but you do have to be able to understand technical publications.
2) Work from home and keep your expenses very low.
3) Represent inventors on a contingency-fee basis.
4) Given 3), choose your cases VERY carefully -- strong merits, good chance of early settlement.
5) Also given 3), choose your spouse carefully -- ideally, one with a steady paycheck, dark hair, fair complexion and Irish eyes (actually, those last three are just my personal preferences).

This isn't for everyone, but if you know that a life in BigLaw will leave you miserable, and you have the talent and self-confidence, then give it a shot. Failure would be disheartening and expensive, but it wouldn't be the end of your legal career.

80, you are wrong if you think prosecutors are "so focused on the science, [they] forget the big picture, statutes, CFR, and case law (among many other things)." Thinking about the big picture and case law is a normal part of portfolio management and counseling. You need to realize that because prosecution is such a deadline driven practice that sometimes it is just impossible to address every possible legal issue in one's work product. For example, time and again a client will give you a project to work on that has to be completed in a day when normally it might take you a week to work on it. Clients also often wait until the very last minute to make decisions, they'll change course moments before something is due and they also sometimes have only vague ideas of what they want. The result is that what we do is often just good enough for now. It's so easy for you as a litigator to look back with hindsight and to nitpick and secondguess all of our decisions that we prosecutors often have to make in the heat of the moment. There is so much more to it than just being "so focused on the science."

everybody and their mother has a chemical engineering degree. too damn many.

I'm a 3L without a science background. Got no-offerred at V30 despite rave reviews from the patent people. The boutiques all seem to want science backgrounds, and the Trademark/Copyright ("Soft IP") boutiques that I've found only hire laterals out of biglaw.

What can I do?

I'm an EE from a t14 in the top half of the class and I got no offered from 2 firms. It is certainly not an easy market right now for anyone to get hired. Yes, IP boutiques aren't doing bad right now, but a lot of them don't really have a need to expand either.

91 - This is 80. Thanks, you put an exclamation point on how important it is to be a lawyer first, a scientist second (I am a prosecutor that litigates also)! I feel your pain and know the work can be complicated, but with I/C laws the way that they are, we can't let our collective guards down. Things are difficult and carry very high risk - that is why prosecutors are the OB-GYNs of law.

94... that really scares me. Whats your fallback plan... or do you anticipate getting some sort of IP prosecution offer? whats considered a "low" salary for IP prosecution?

Currently a 2L at a top 20 school, with an MSEE, but I have a crappy undergrad gpa ( < 3.0) which seems to be limiting opportunities during OCI, although I would've hoped that the MS made up for it.

Does anyone have a similar experience starting an IP career with a hard science background that's non-stellar, or does anyone else have any advice based on experience in the field? I'm not sure which I want to focus on long term, but will this low UGPA limit the opportunities for patent prosecution & force me in the litigation/licensing direction?

I left a 1200 lawyer firm to start my own IP practice as a third year attorney in Chicago. I am able to bring in small clients that my old firm would not even flinch at, and I am not conflicted out of bringing in small startups that compete with large corporations that retained my old firm.

I made about $200 base & bonus as as a second year, and worked ~2300 hours. This year I am on pace to hit $150K, and have absolutely no stress. I may work about the same hours, but every dollar goes into my pocket. Solo practice is the way to go, and I will never look back.

IP boutiques generally want you to prosecute patents at least part of the time. If you're looking to do IP lit exclusively, avoid the boutiques and focus on GP firms. GP firms don't care about the patent bar, but they can be impressed by tech backgrounds, but above all, are looking for good lawyers. That means that your law school performance must still be top notch.

59 - RUN. Run away from O&B. Far, far away.

Even though a lot of law students on this thread are freaking out about the market, the nice thing is that many of you have an engineering degree. You may think you have wasted your time in law school but at least you won't be starving trying to pay off your loans because your undergrad is at least marketable. If law is what you wanted to do then you haven't wasted your time.

For those of you who want to do IP litigation, maybe consider working in a firm that does any kind of litigation. I have a B in Industrial Engineering from a great school and couldn't find an IP job. I settled for family law (yes, a far cry from IP ) but I get to spend a ton of time in court arguing motions, etc. Although I have dissuaded myself from the notion that I will EVER practice intellectual property, I have been approached by partners at small technology firms who are looking for an associate to help build their tech practice (mostly non-disclosures and breach of contracts on other issues) but geared towards tech companies. If family law gets too emotional, I have a way out if need be.

I worked as trademark litigator/prosecutor in small firm (~35 IP attorneys) then jumped to pharma in-house in 2007. Hours at the office dropped 20% and compensation went up by ~$100K. My former colleagues had 3 pay cuts this year.

97:

Do you have any technical work experience? I went to a top 10 law school with a hard science undergrad degree, but with an undergrad GPA of about 3.0. In interviews I emphasized my work experience and discussed a lot of technical stuff with the interviewers, which seemed to make up for my low undergrad GPA. I landed in an IP boutique, and later moved to a V30 firm.

I'm a 5th yr at an IP firm and make less than 180k/year. thats bad right ?

130 - some work experience, not very tech savvy, but try to emphasize the MSEE knowledge at every chance. Thanks for the advice

103:

What do you think of a BSEE w/ around a 3.2 from a top engineering school + GW? Any shot at patent BIGLAW or is that setting my sights too high?

Scary hearing about EEs from T20 schools not landing any jobs...

130 - some work experience, not very tech savvy, but try to emphasize the MSEE knowledge at every chance. Thanks for the advice

Grunching, but I have a few comments.

* IP is FAR from recession-proof. An easy way for a tech company to reduce their legal expenses is to reduce the number of patents they file. As in-house counsel, I know the first thing we did was cut back the number of filings by 20%, followed by asking every firm for a discount.

* As briefly mentioned by some here, it's much more difficult for patent prosecutors to bill an hour than it is for a litigator or transactional attorney. The first time I worked on a litigation case, I was amazed that the attorneys (at least during doc review), started the clock when they walked in and turned it off when they left. Takes 8 hours to bill 8 hours. In contrast, you're doing a lot of small jobs in IP, so it takes longer to bill those 8 hours.

* The end result is that it is hard for patent prosecutors to make partner at a Big Law firm.

* It's also hard for firms to make money from prosecution. Companies don't want to spend a lot on patents and it's hard for a big firm to make money even charging just $9000 for an application. So companies are moving to boutiques to draft apps. So more and more big firms are slowing down or even removing that practice.

IP is doing pretty well. The dotcom bust in 2001 was worse in terms of impact on business than this downturn. But lots of firms are still paranoid about what the future will bring.

Patent prosecution is doing well. Litigation has seen a dip but seems to be picking up again.

As for the engineering degreed lawyers who are not getting hired, look at your technical resume, look at your writing sample. When I hire (and I've been doing hiring for 10 years) I look at the tech background, tech experience, and writing sample. Your law school grades are fairly irrelevant unless they suck. If your grades in rule-based classes are bad (real property, civ pro, and any IP classes) you should have a good reason for that. If you want to improve your chances of being hired, bring a good technical writing sample too. Also do some practice interviewing. I've interviewed folks who cannot communicate, have dead fish handshakes, and will not look me in the eyes.

This is 68. I'm pretty sure I am right about my rankings of majors. Look at any law firm and you will see this

http://www.orrick.com/careers/laterals/openings.asp

https://recruiting.mofo.com/psp/CandidateGateway/APPLICANT/HRMS/c/HRS_HRAM.HRS_CE.GBL?&SiteId=2

http://www.jonesday.com/careers/currentopportunities/

I am not a computer science major, but generally, chemistry and soft sciences are not really wanted. I have a masters in electrical engineering and have experience in the field. I also do recruiting at my firm.

This is 68. I'm pretty sure I am right about my rankings of majors. Look at any law firm and you will see this

http://www.orrick.com/careers/laterals/openings.asp

https://recruiting.mofo.com/psp/CandidateGateway/APPLICANT/HRMS/c/HRS_HRAM.HRS_CE.GBL?&SiteId=2

http://www.jonesday.com/careers/currentopportunities/

I am not a computer science major, but generally, chemistry and soft sciences are not really wanted. I have a masters in electrical engineering and have experience in the field. I also do recruiting at my firm.

Here are the highlights for ip litig. boutique, less than 15 attorneys. in the sw.

firm probably brings in around $10m a year
work is busy, new cases, no layoffs.
pay w/ bonus - $120k 1st yrs up to low $200k 4-5yr assocs.
downside: 90% of the work comes from a small handful of major clients.

103 here.

106: I think you have a good a shot at an IP position as anyone; the bottom line is that firms are looking for good lawyers with the ability to understand the technology. If you can make it to the interview, if you can impress them with your technical knowledge it'll matter more than your undergrad GPA. The only difficulty is that these days firms are screening more strictly and not extending as many interviews.

68: Take a look at firms that have a life sciences practice and see what the undergrad degrees are in. You'll find plenty of chemistry and biology majors without PhD's or masters degrees . Your firm probably just has a weak life sciences practice.

Does anyone have any thoughts about Knobbe and / or Townsend in CA?

68 here. I agree with the previous comments. IP boutiques can be speicalized in one area.

Townsend is a sweat shop. high billable hours make for an unpleasant life because most work is done at a flat rate for prosecution. Get prepared to work.

Knobbe is a good boutique firm.

46 and 49 and all others wondering about school,

I asked Lat to open the thread. I have a MS in a hard science (not engineering) and a law degree from a TTT.

At my firm starting salary is $160k. Hours are the same as biglaw, but the people are better. In my line of work, (litigation of complex technology patents) the science is twice as important as the law. Most work you do is getting deep and dirty in the science. We don't hire kids unless they can sit for the patent bar (and we do litigation mostly. . . cause the best patent litigation arguments really deal with the prosecution end of patent law.)

If you are strong in science, and not a moron and work hard then you are ok in my book. We also tend to hire from less ranked schools even though we get applications from top ten schools. I don't know why. I'm not high enough in the ranks to know why, but we also have an incredibly low attrition rate.

Patent litigation at a biglaw shop requires you to deal with the non-patent litigation people. Here, you have patent law only. Hence, maybe we look at keeping people here. I don't know.

What about the big patent litigation shops. I know, I know, Fish is dead, Townsend is a TTT, but what about Kenyon, Fitzpatrick, Baker Botts, etc? They all have huge patent presences in NY. Any informaiton?

Summer offer rates, layoffs, is it busy?

What about Morrison?

99 - I would modify your advice a bit. If you have an advanced degree, meaning a PhD in chem or biochem, AVOID a the big gp firms. They will pigeon hole you so fast into prosecution and you will never have more than a supporting role in litigation, if any. True, the boutiques will have you doing some prosecution, but you are far more likely to get a mix of work, and maybe even some say over where your career goes.

Your science degrees are worthless now:
REDMOND, WA—In what CEO Bill Gates called "an unfortunate but necessary step to protect our intellectual property from theft and exploitation by competitors," the Microsoft Corporation patented the numbers one and zero Monday.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29130

I know more laid off patent prosecutors - more than I would have ever thought could possibly be laid off. There are no jobs available. The ones that have been laid off longest came to the realization that they have no choice but to hit their former firm's clients up for work at low ball rates. On the face, it's preposterous to see a patent for a Fortune 500 corporation being drafted by a 28 year old former biglaw IP associate, but that's what is happening.

121, expensive patents are always drafted by 3-4 year out kids. What the hell. You must know nothing about patent prosecution. Hell, the examiner is probably a 25 year old kid with a BS in EE and 1 yr work experience.

Half the people on this thread have no clue what they are talking about.

Just finished my first year at a bigtique. Hate to say it, but my phone won't stop ringing with calls from recruiters looking to place me into various V50s for patent lit jobs.

I'm not entirely sure how to approach the situation.

Has anyone made the transition from bigtique to patent lit at GP firm? Good experience? Bad experience?

122, true expensive patents are drafted by kids just a few years out, but they are in firms not soloing.

123 - bad experience. Transferring from bigtique to GP IP = lower visibility, diminished partnership prospects, worse QOL and often worse clients and work.

At a bigtique, IP is all there is. At a GP, the IP dept. doesn't run the show; general lit and corp rule the heirarchy. Many GPs treat their IP depts. as nothing more than supplemental service centers to keep big-ticket lit and corp clients happy with a one-stop-shopping option, and thus don't do much to staff or develop the practice properly. For many GPs, it's enough to advertise that they simply *have* an IP dept.

On the plus side, GPs used to offer more money per class year than bigtiques. With the decline of lockstep compensation, I wonder whether that's still true.

IMHO, YMMV. Not saying there isn't a good experience to be had, but do your due diligence.

123--don't feel too wanted--you are just resume fodder. Those V50 jobs may or may not exist. The recruiters just want to pepper those firms with resumes like yours (patent "experience") in the hope that something sticks. They are calling every first year at all bigtiques. That is how they make their living.

126,

I had sort of assumed as much, but these guys certainly know how to talk a big game.

Thanks for the heads up,

123

I have worked for the past 9 years at a firm with approx 500 attys. My degree is in ChemE and have done mostly patent prep/pros. I have also dabbled in TM, Copyright, Corp DD, and licensing work as well. I went to law school b/c I realized that my technical track at my O/G corp employer was flattening. I thoroughly enjoy engineering, so prep/pros of good inventions is something that I can do everyday with pleasure. Yes, sometimes, the drudgery of dragging or helping create an invention with someone with just an "idea" is less enjoyable, nevertheless, it is far more rewarding than the below.

My office has a fairly large section of corp attys that churn "deals" ad nauseum. These are form driven matters that must be billed as inefficiently as possible, b/c that's what the client expects, and b/c the poor company trying to obtain funding is ultimately paying the fees. This type of form practice surely can not be that mind challenging. Same clients, slightly different targets, artificially moved up closing dates = artificial pressure, and overbilling to boot. It seem "fill in the blanks of existing docs" to me.

My colleagues in lit, do the same. Phenomenally inefficient doc review with little focus or filtering about the docs that will be produced. "Bill as much as you can" is the mantra. Patent lit does require us E types and that can be technically engaging work, but ultimately, if the client can't pay, is patent lit really "the" practice side of IP.

Bankruptcy, I can't speak to. Real estate seems to be suffering the same as the patent prep/pros attys - cost sensitive clients. 2009, hard to shoe-horn outrageously high billing rates into downturn-economic client companies, especially in real estate.

Happily, I will make the "forced" transition to a smaller firm environment where I can work with billing rates one-half of my present firm, enjoy slightly more flexibility, and continue to wrestle with bits, packets, networks, and functions that are new, novel, and nonobvious. At that time, I won't miss being mildly entertained by redundant gossip news of married corp partners routinely effing unmarried/married corp associates b/c the firm's H/R depts continues to turn a blind eye. I also won't miss being sidetracked by the firm's directed artificially forced pro bono requirements and projects, and mundane firm "citizen" requirements, etc.

I love engineering, that's why I studied it and why lot's of other folks didn't, and I will continue to enjoy it in a reduced compensation environment. The escape from being associated with the above will be worth it. Guaranteed.

128 here. For all of you who "lord" over your friends and family with your law degrees and titles, just realize that you (and I) are relatively ants in this world, wealth based, and that the imagined success many of you, not I, bluster is nothing but vapor relative to the entrepreneurs and industry titans of the world, compensatorily speaking.

Our model is "work an hour, get paid an hour" just like: electricians, plumbers, mechanics, waitresses, IT specialists, doctors, and many other forms of workers. No matter how monetarily successful you think are in this world, you aren't, relatively speaking. The only way you make more money is to work longer hours. Okay, so you have 20 associates working for you, it is a slightly more leveraged model of wah/gpah, but nonetheless, the monetary limitations can't be overcome.

Widgets, products - that's the key. Windows, Word, IPhones, blade servers, petroleum products, etc. these are the lemonade of their creators and sellers that made them billionaires, not slighly millionaires or hundred thousandaires. Among some of these creators (Gates, Ellison, Walton, Koch, Dell, Allen, Brin, Page, Mars, etc.) some didn't finish law school, college, or high school, yet they sold products by the millions that monetarily enriched their lives 1,000,000-fold more than any PI contingency fee atty could ever make. So, please understand, that if you are more sensitive and humble towards your undereducated neighbor, who may happen to be wisely selling widgets and may possibly be far asset richer than you ever will be, that you might ultimately be employed by them or their company. In the world of uber-large personal bank accounts, lawyers have no account numbers.

129: I went to a better undergrad than you, got a better law degree than you, and I work at a better firm than you. Get over it. That is all.

123 - I'm with 125. Unless there is something really bad going on with your bigtique, I would avoid the GP move. In general (and there may well be some exceptions) a bigtique will get far better, more complex work, and more variety than a gp. The GPs tend to have a sharp dividing line between pros and lit, so you will get one or the other and likely without a say in the matter.

Having been at both types of firms, I can say that the bigtiques overall have much better IP attorneys. Why? Probably numbers thing. Biqtiques can have a handful of attorneys with interference or reexam expertise, an ITC lit practice, and ANDA practice, etc. The GP's just don't have enough patent attorneys to develop those areas. At mine, we have almost no experience in interference, reexam, etc., so why the hell would clients ever come to us for those problems? They are going to call Fish, Finnegan, even Oblon, to handle those matters.

130: doubt it. Missed the point.

129

128 don't break them in half. Take the whole pill.

68 - you are an idiot. Let me first start with the Chem/Biology argument. You are at least correct in your position that those technical backgrounds require at least a Masters degree. As for the use of the term "soft science," clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. "Soft science" almost always refers to sociology, economics, psychology, etc. Ironically, the term "hard science" has almost always been exclusively reserved for majors in physics, chemistry, and biology - two of which you claim to be "soft."

As for your coveted "Computer Science" majors, I would argue they really aren't "scientists" at all. Rather, the computer science major, as it relates to programming, is really a major in applied mathematics. If you want to include building computers into computer science, I would say those people are actually electrical engineers specializing in computers. Traditional computer science majors are programmers - end of story. This is not science - this is applied math. Programming does not use the scientific method - there really isn't any discovery, just the application of algorithms. Note further, that until recently, computer science majors weren't even allowed to sit for the Patent Bar exam. Restrictions for Computer science majors still exist if one were to sit for the Patent Bar - specifically, your undergraduate institution has to have its computer science curriculum certified by some governing body. Bottom line, if any major in your list is "soft" I would argue it is computer science. Finally, I would add that a good physics student should be able to prosecute any software/computer science "invention" just as a good electrical engineer/physics major with a background in solid-state physics should be able to prosecute just about any computer hardware invention.

The only reason that my firm's prosecution clients haven't asked for happy endings this year is that they are mostly located out of town.

94 Back - I honestly don't know what I'm going to do. Like I said, most IP boutiques aren't in desperate need of people, so while they're doing fine, they have no need to hire entry level attorneys. I'm sure its not my undergrad degree that is the hold-up, I graduated first in my engineering class at a decent engineering school. Right now, every firm can be picky about who they hire, because let's be honest, there are people with 2 and 3 years experience with my resume or better looking for jobs. My mistake was the 2 firms I summered with, I'm not saying they were bad or anything, they just aren't hiring, whereas the places I turned down hired all their summers. So my advice to any 2L is to choose wisely when picking where you summer. Yeah, smaller boutiques are great for QOL, etc. but they do not necessarily hire every year, and in a normal economy they don't feel bad about it because they know the student can go get a job just about anywhere else. Unfortunately, this year that is not the case.

133 wins the thread

134 - I like your points, but must admit that you are being too kind to 68, who is clearly retarded and is probably still in law school. I'm sure you realize that a higher degree is not necessary for bio or chem. These are clearly not "soft sciences" for a variety of reasons, but the revenues and prosecution/litigation budgets associated with biotech and pharma patents at strong companies make this clear.

This higher degree in bio or chem seems only necessary (1) to get past uneducated gatekeepers of law firms and in-house, or (2) to gain entry into a firm that is small-minded and destined to fail. People with actual experience, and have a future themselves, know better (if the candidate has lab or work experience as well).

Good luck everyone. Find a strong group and people you can work with and the future will be very bright.

This is 68. I'm pretty sure I am right about my rankings of majors. Look at any law firm and you will see this

http://www.orrick.com/careers/laterals/openings.asp

https://recruiting.mofo.com/psp/CandidateGateway/APPLICANT/HRMS/c/HRS_HRAM.HRS_CE.GBL?&SiteId=2

http://www.jonesday.com/careers/currentopportunities/

I am not a computer science major, but generally, chemistry and soft sciences are not really wanted. I have a masters in electrical engineering and have experience in the field. I also do recruiting at my firm.

This is 68. I'm pretty sure I am right about my rankings of majors. Look at any law firm and you will see this

http://www.orrick.com/careers/laterals/openings.asp

https://recruiting.mofo.com/psp/CandidateGateway/APPLICANT/HRMS/c/HRS_HRAM.HRS_CE.GBL?&SiteId=2

http://www.jonesday.com/careers/currentopportunities/

I am not a computer science major, but generally, chemistry and soft sciences are not really wanted. I have a masters in electrical engineering and have experience in the field. I also do recruiting at my firm.

This is 68. I'm pretty sure I am right about my rankings of majors. Look at any law firm and you will see this

http://www.orrick.com/careers/laterals/openings.asp

https://recruiting.mofo.com/psp/CandidateGateway/APPLICANT/HRMS/c/HRS_HRAM.HRS_CE.GBL?&SiteId=2

http://www.jonesday.com/careers/currentopportunities/

I am not a computer science major, but generally, chemistry and soft sciences are not really wanted. I have a masters in electrical engineering and have experience in the field. I also do recruiting at my firm.

This is 68. I'm pretty sure I am right about my rankings of majors. Look at any law firm and you will see this

http://www.orrick.com/careers/laterals/openings.asp

https://recruiting.mofo.com/psp/CandidateGateway/APPLICANT/HRMS/c/HRS_HRAM.HRS_CE.GBL?&SiteId=2

http://www.jonesday.com/careers/currentopportunities/

I am not a computer science major, but generally, chemistry and soft sciences are not really wanted. I have a masters in electrical engineering and have experience in the field. I also do recruiting at my firm.

This is 143, a curious poli sci major. Why is 68's comment 139 repeated three times? Is that for emphasis? 68 exceeded applicable page limits.

Every day, another patent pros client goes flat fee. Big law, and even many "small law" firms are getting bruised trying to do a 3K application that's not a POS. Big law pros partners are crapping their pants because they can't even look at a 3K app with their rates.

FYI - I know the "blah blah blah I do a great job for 3K" is coming. And you're probably writing crappy apps with 3 claims for BellSouth or somebody. We know your apps are a pimple on the ass of mediocrity, at best, so STFU.

Patent applications are a lot like automobiles. You can get one for $3,000.00. It may get you where you want to go.

But it may not.

You have to ask yourself whether you can afford the risk of cutting that corner.

One advantage of doing patent prosecution is being able to practice anywhere in the world. My first job out of law school was in Europe, and, if i had a few clients, I could see myself banging out an app or two a month and living quite comfortably in Brazil or Argentina.

The work is boring only if the "inventions" are boring. Getting clients in a technical field that you have a genuine interest in makes work easier and more fun.

For those thinking about hanging out a shingle, I highly recommend reading this blog: http://robertplattbell.blogspot.com/

I am in a independent-contractor position with my European firm and make ca. 100K euro @ 1300 billed hours.

To be honest, I would probably jump off a bridge if I had to bill 1900 hours.

If you can do US patent prosecution from anywhere in the world, so can others. While I understand that there are certain regulatory barriers to some outsourcing, it would seem only a matter of time before more of this work is done overseas in lower wage countries, especially in India where there is alot of engineering talent and people speak English.

Best advice I received as a law student: go to the best training environment you can find. In the IP/prosecution area, this can be an IP boutique, IP patent dept of a giant GP firm, or even a relatively small prosecution focused firm. Don't get too focused on partnership prospects and the like.

Like it or not, the PhD has become the standard for the biotech patent attorney (and at my premium in-house job, even for the chemical practitioners). The reality is that the clients love it and expect it, at least in my legal market. And in my experience, the undergrad-trained bio and chem folks just don't have the practical research experience that informs the work of a really good prosecutor.

59-i agree with the previous poster, run far, far away from o & B, they seem to really abuse associates, worst qol i've heard of.
34--Oblon is very non-diverse, with little room for promotion--most of the partners are glorified associates with no real say in running the firm or much increase in pay. also they have definitely had "stealth layoffs"

148 - Take a look at your "standard" for biotech/chem. Maybe your aren't hiring the right people.

Ph.D. as a patent attorney means nothing if you can walk the walk - after all you are an attorney, not a contract scientist. If you've got experience in your narrow Ph.D. thesis area, then you are probably conflicted out of that work. If your clients "expect" Ph.D.'s, then I suspect that you "expect" to wonder if your bills will actually be paid. Like it or not - you know I'm right. Good companies with smart management know where to find good lawyers, and they don't care about the number of Ph.D.'s. on staff.

Question: I have a B.S. and M.S. in marine biology with extensive course work in biology, chemistry, and physics. I am 15% at a T2 (75-100) and will publish in an article on IP lit. in the coming months. I will be taking the PTO exam this month and will graduate this December. Any thoughts on chances of landing an IP lit. job, or one with both lit and pros.?

To 151. It will be tough. There are folks with Phds that are vying for the same prosecution positions. Patent Litigation might be easier to land. Consider doing solo prosecution work if it doesn't work out, solo inventors are good clients to start out with. You can download an entire prosecution history file and study the whole prosecution process.

45, try arent fox. they have a busy Pat pros group. Cheaper rates have kept clients. Wib is nice.

62 dean fred sucks dockey balls.

bump

There has been little mention of trademark law in the comments, so here's a bit on that. Trademark law is often considered a poor stepchild of patent, but that's far from accurate. Good trademark lawyers spend a lot of time fixing the messes made by corporate lawyers and patent lawyers who think there is nothing they need to know about trademark law to practice it. Trademarks are not time-limited as patents are; they can go one forever with proper care. A complete trademark practice will include clearance, prosecution, licensing, litigation, acquisition due diligence, and poicing. All of this can be done by one person; the major expenses are docketing software, billing software, and subscriptions to USPQ (BNA) and a service like Lexis or Westlaw. It does help to have a good paralegal or secretary, but it's not essential, at least at first. You can make a good living as a trademark sole practitioner; it's a lot more fun than being in a big firm. My only regret is that I didn't start my own practice earlier.

To 12: You don't need a lawyer to "trademark" something in the United States, where trademark rights come from use, not registration. "Trademark" is a noun, not a verb, here.

As a small patent law shop practitioner (eight years away from biglaw), success in working at a small shop depends on various factors, including your drive, expectations, ability to land and keep clients, and, dare say it, luck.

We have been fortunate, but patent law is not recession proof, and not immune to this economy - 2009 is shaping up to be a mediocre year for us, and in speaking with others we are not alone. Chalk it up to various economic related conditions, including more supply than demand, downward pressure on fees and "take it or leave it" fixed fee arrangements, reticence of clients to file as much as in previous years, etc.

We have recently landed clients tired of paying big firm rates. It is impossible for in house people to justify paying $500 an hour for patent prosecution or licensing when they can get solid work product for significantly less.

Small firm IP practice is fun, challenging, and always interesting, but in many ways not unlike small firm practice in other fields - more responsibility for each principal (IT issues, taxes, personnel, etc), keeping an eye on the bottom line, keeping up to date on the latest legal issues, business development, and so forth.

On hours, at a small patent firm, if you can do 1000, with all the other responsibilities, you are doing OK, and the math works out very nicely.

Realization rate (what you take home of what you bill) can be in excess of 75 per cent - contrast that with the 33 per cent you are lucky to get at biglaw, with those first year $300 an hour billing rates clients cannot fathom. Run the numbers, but $250 an hour for a senior attorney billing 1000 hours with $50,000 in overhead is not too shabby. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Copyright/trademark - My small firm soft IP friends have a bit of a tougher time unless they have a big client or two who feeds them all the work they can handle - typically taking a client with them or former in house people who get work from the old company. Heaven forbid they lose that one client, but that is the only way I have seen small firm soft IP people make significant $$.