Can someone please confirm that a select panel of U. Penn. State Law Profs drafted the stimulus and Obamacare?

2- can someone please confirm that you're a tool?

(not an obama supporter).

Not large-scale commercial r.e. law but I'll get it started... I work at a small firm in the midwest (not Chicago), and our primary business is foreclosures for national lenders. We also do related proceedings, so wrongful foreclosure defense, bankruptcy, mechanics lien foreclosures, quiet title actions, etc. As you might expect, we're pretty busy these days. Hours aren't bad, probably 50 hr weeks unless we have a TRO or something coming up, which is pretty rare. As most of our work is flat-fee, I don't have a billables goal to meet. I'm in my 2nd year here, making $80K. Last year my bonus was $25K.

If you hear an ambulance on Madison - that's probably me being treated for an injury after falling out of my chair laughing. No fire drills in real estate? Real estate is probably one of the toughest areas of legal practice - I don't mean its complex or esoteric, but the clients are brutally demanding, cheap (haggle over bills), and because much of the the documentation is form driven and of public record, very unforgiving of any mistakes. Also, there is a general perception by RE clients that lawyers are there to screw deals up and everything you do as a RE lawyer is questioned over and over.

Non-BIGLAW firms have not been spared from the current credit crunch.

BTW, real estate law also attracts a high proportion of partners who are less than good people managers - a lot of them fancy themselves "wheeler dealers" and are incapable of managing associates and staff, are oftentimes rude, and have oversized egos.

Smalllaw real estate is entirely regional. If you're in Cali, you're in trouble (unless you've got a partner who's got it in good with a bank's counsel in charge of mortgage/loan workouts). Other places aren't quite as bad, but, real estate is pretty dead. There are some scraps out there, like foreclosures and evictions. Those really suck, though, and pay like garbage.

From being on the money representing side of some real estate transactions, I can say that the hours can be really something extreme when you have clients who just have to take it down to the wire. That's true for closings in general but it seems like real estate has an extra population of last minute idiots.

4,

Which firm?

The credit crunch impacts real estate severely, as one might imagine if they know something about finance and secured lending. Virtually no one can buy real estate in cash - and most people who can don't - and in the case of commercial buildings, it's almost *all* financing. The leverage ratios in commercial deals would make your eyes pop out of your head. You think 40-1 leverage is bad, ho HO.

About ten years ago I escaped from big law to small law. I joined a predominantly real estate firm as a litigator. Early on, I got to first-chair preliminary injunction hearings and later trials involving commercial re disputes. It was great experience.

8, I'm not going to out myself. :)

4

Again, another ATL thread where readers are expected to provide content (just like caption contests.)

Real estate attorneys are part of the unwashed category of lawyers that comprises ambulance chasers and immigration practitioners. In a real estate transaction, the attorney is the low man on the totem pole. Very frequently, a real estate attorney is usually a tool or a facilitator of some kind of land speculation/fraudulent scam. When the scam is discovered, guess who is indicted first? All risk and no reward. Real estate lawyers are useless as we all know that the respa, hud and epa compliance forms are drafted by paralegals and only signed off by the attorney. The developers and brokers are the ones making the profit while the attorney is compensated with bread crumbs. Prestigious? Not even an iota.

Having practiced in a small RE boutique and in a commercial real estate department at a large firm, here are my thoughts.

1) Starting at a boutique is a great way to learn real estate practice. You'll get lots of responsibilty right away. You'll be doing the things that paralegals and juniors at big firms do, only with less supervision and the dollar values will probably be lower, unless you are at a real high end shop.

2) You will do a house closing or two at a small firm. Even at a high-end boutique, one of the partners will have some pain in the ass client who will want you to close their kid's condo that they are buying in cash for the brat. Great learning experiences though, because the client will almost always need their hand held through every single little aspect of the deal. You might also be exposed to some real estate litigation, which will only make you a better transactional lawyer down the road.

2) Real estate boutiques vary drastically in size and quality. If you want to get a lowdown on who is who, do an info interview with a commercial real estate attorney at a midsize law firm, since they tend to deal with almost the entire spectrum.

3) The pay at boutiques is low to start. But if you're capable, you can move the salary up quickly. However, in this climate, expect a slower climb.

4) Unless it is one of the firm's flagship practices, real estate in a large firm is usually a primarily a support area, so the hours are a bit lower and more predictable. However, when you get staffed on a large corporate transaction with a lot of real estate pieces, you'll be going full boar just like the corporate guys are. Now, workout/restructuring type matters have replaced most of that work.

PE, your writing is slipping.

This is OT, but does anyone know how profitable the Section 16 (Exchange Act) practice is on the plaintiff's side? There are only a very small handful of firms that practice in that area, probably because there's not a lot of money to be made. But many cases are cut-and-dry and involve no discovery, so contingency fees translate into reasonably high hourly compensation. It's probably a good job if you are lazy like myself and just want to make enough to pay the rent.

I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts on this. If people who have worked on Section 16 defense can give any insight into what the plaintiff's bar is like, I'd appreciate hearing from them too. Thanks.

1,

are you interested in Bo Obama?

O'Halloran Ryan LLP is a good small RE shop in NYC - I recently used them on a small commercial deal

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on the related practice area of land use. I suspect its more valued here in California, but any info is appreciated.

how many interviews does the honors program give per opening?

PE/13 - you did shtick about a suicide. Say goodnight Francis.

full bore?

PE's knowledge of real estate practice seems to be based solely on the closing for his parents' beach condo. Anyone who takes his description at face value (even ironic face value) is an idiot.

5 is pretty much on the money. I'll just add the following- hours, are often very much a function of the relationship between the client and the firm/partner who handles the client relationship. If the client is the type of guy who says I need you to jump right now, because I feel like it, and the partner says how high, your hours will suck. If the partner doesn't let himself get dragged into that sort of relationship, then your hours will be better. Also, I've found that in real estate, its quite a wide range of attorneys you'll deal with, from storefront abogado's, to the fancy shmanciest of park avenue.

I'd agree with what 5 said. The fire drills are smaller, but more frequent. At big firms, it's often a lower margin area too.

PE isn't that off. All of the residential closings in our office are handled, doc drafting to recording by a paralegal.

I'm just getting started at a boutique real estate firm, so good to see this thread. I have a lot in common with 4, but not so much foreclosure work. Also in Midwest (not Chicago). Small suburban firm (<10 attorneys). We do both residential and smaller commercial, both transactional and litigation. Whereas the transactional business has slowed with the market, RE litigation has been hot. We do quite a bit of title insurance defense. It's interesting work, and there's a lot of it. I'll be expected to handle quite a bit of responsibility right out of the gate.

I'm starting at $70k base, with a billable hours expectation of 1600 that would carry a $10k bonus. If I bill 1800 I'll bring home $95k. 50 hour weeks. And I genuinely like the people I work with/for.

Dealing with real estate brokers (commercial and residential) is a pain in the ass. They'll call or email EVERYONE 10 million times and leave this long message b/c you are not paying enough attention to them. Beware of giving out your cell phone number!

You will find recession-proof real estate and land use practice abound in both state and federal government. The pay is comparable to that of small firms, but the hours are much better.

HTH.

I began my career at a small firm (under 20 attorneys) in NYC doing only commercial and some residential real estate. I made between 70K and 80K, including a small bonus, and worked about 80% of the hours I now work in BigLaw. But we definitely had fire drills, and I think I pulled more late nights there than I have at my large firm. Any client can give you a fire drill, it doesn't matter what the size of the firm may be. And you still need to bill hours, keep track of time, answer to partners, etc. But we also dealt with attorneys at large firms, attorneys at other small firms like ours, and solos. It really didn't matter.

Commerical real estate is pretty cut throat and you got to learn to be really slimey. But, that can be fun. It is definitely not for those who like civility or are weak of heart. http://www.stupidrightwingers.com

PE - You're a tool.

This comment is addressed to post no. 23.

You remind me of the janitor who describes his job title as "custodial engineer." What I described is basically the nuts and bolts of small law real estate. If you wish to further embellish to validate yourself as a real estate attorney, be my guest. However, know this, you are not a peer and your standing in the legal community is not prestigious.

slow day

PE/33 - you did shtick about a suicide. Say goodnight Sally.

I believe Donald Trump once said that in a real estate transaction, the roles of each party could be broken down to chess pieces and that the lawyers would rank as pawns (peons). So much for real estate being a prestigious area of law.

Agree with 29 - RE/land use from the government side is recession proof but government RE practice isn't always advertised as such. Look for RE sub-practices within consumer affairs (mortgage/contractor/broker fraud), environmental (obvious), economic development (eminent domain, project finance, leasing), and transportation (eminent domain again, easements/rights of way).

Also if you really want to stay in corporate RE and minimize having to do residential (even high-value residential), don't overlook going in-house. I have a friend who paid her way through law school by working as a paralegal in the RE practice of the legal department of a large national retail chain. They even ended up hiring her as an attorney after the bar.

4 and 27:

Where are these small firm jobs that pay you ~70K with substantial bonuses (25K)? What kind of credentials do you need to grab those kinds of jobs? Also, I am from the midwest and would love to return there. Care sharing what cities you are in? I'd be willing to take a job dealing with real estate for even ~55K just to get me foot in the door. Would either be willing to let me talk to you about any opportunities in your respective markets?

PE, speaking of real estate, I'm going to need to you attend a closing this weekend for the home I am purchasing in Montauk. Have your secretary send over the receipt for your LIRR ticket. And please don't bring your son - last time he drank too much soda and embarrassed himself.

Also, I assume you'll be arranging for a car to pick me up from the Plaza Hotel tonight. My apologies for not being able to squeeze you in tonight - the Plaza had limited space.

You know it's funny that when there's actually a post that generates interesting and useful comments - like this one - the shtick posts stick out like a sore thumb. You guys may think they're funny, but they distract from the value of this board. Go get your yucks somewhere else.

13, 33 and 36 is clueless.

Ummm OK...the "tipster" (or whatever you want to call it) in the original post sounds pretty naive.

I am an alumnus of a biglaw real estate department. I was laid off this spring and was a mid-level at the time. I had been in a smaller regional firm prior to that doing RE as well.

First of all, there are absolutely no jobs out there right now in biglaw real estate departments that I can see. Nothing. Recruiters post fake jobs in the hopes of collecting resumes, but that is about it.

Second, as far as hours and stress being lower, yes, in 2008 we generally had to sit around with our thumbs up our asses. But, prior to that, we had plenty of good years and plenty of fire drills. At that time, we were just as busy as any other department at our firm, and we had mini-cycles from week to week or month to month of being flat out slammed to being bored - just like most everybody else. Its true that at many firms, the RE department does have a bit of a rap as being a little bit slower paced, but in a "normal" economy, I'd say that is generally untrue.

Third, I think the original tipster's idea about "high end boutiques" is again, naive. I'm not sure if there are so many of these sort of places that have a truly national practice, or at least they are not as "high-end" as you might think. I know of plenty smallish firms in different cities that have a prominent real estate lawyer or two, but most of these are just regional players and are not really "high end boutiques."

Regardless, I don't see any hiring out there in RE right now anywhere. The people who have survived are simply holding on for dear life and thanking their lucky stars that they made it through the layoff waves. I'm sure (relatively speaking of course) the billable hours have stabilized a bit for most people since the headcounts are down at most firms. There won't be any real expansion in large law firm real estate practices until 2011 at the earliest.

38: 4 here. Responding to: "What kind of credentials do you need to grab those kinds of jobs?"

You know, in my experience finding small firm jobs is less about your credentials/resume and more about who you know. I mean, I was a law review editor, honors, etc., but I think those things played less of a role in me landing this job than my networking and having someone recommend me personally to the hiring partner.

The market in my area sucks right now. I am wildly thankful for my job. And with that: back to work!

I am now convinced that PE is either a law student with no work experience, a bush league lawyer from a sub third tier law firm/law school, or (if truly a PE), a partner from a firm that buys desks from the Salvation Army.

24 and 25 - 5 here.

I hope I know what I am talking about since I have been a real estate lawyer for almost 15 years in NYC with a big (2000+ lawyer) firm, a boutique, and a mid sized firm. Transaction sizes ranged from sub-$1MM to over $1Bn. Unless you are doing cookie cutter deals (residential, CBMS, etc.), most real estate deals are actually interesting (particularly since, unlike in corporate finance/securitization, you can't readily create additional layers in the "equity pie"). A lot of brain work is needed. But OTOH, a lot of the results are not really appreciated by the clients who typically have money on the table, a hard close date, and lenders banging on them for more collateral. It has been fun, but I don't see RE values bouncing back anytime soon and in fact, I personally think commercial real estate is going to see a lot of distressed activity real soon (which will mean more RE work but may also mean that the work gets pushed to cheaper shops).

PE's comments are completely off target (even if you are to take them with the customary grain of salt).

This comment is addressed to post no. 44.

Please fantasize away if it boosts your own pathetic ego. The fact that you have toiled away in real estate law would normally elicit heartfelt sympathy but in your case, I only feel pity for you. I have enjoyed hearing stories about how real estate attorneys have tried to "reinvent" themselves during the recession by trying their hand in other areas of law. Here are some words of encouragement: You are too late to the dance. That is all.

46 - give it up chief, it's over.

2 -- hahahaha

I tend to agree with most of the comments. I left a Biglaw firm to do commercial transactional work in the suburbs and I am pleased with the decision. The deals are still as challenging and satisfying as before, but obviously on a much smaller order of magnitude. The benefit is that I have much more autonomy and I handle the entire transaction -- Whereas I would often only work on 1 isolated aspect of a giant portfolio deal, now I am responsible for it all. The pay differential was really not that bad -- about 85% of what I was making downtown (and no one here has seen a salary cut or been worried about being laid off), but I have total authority to handle deals and the partners are actually human beings. And while colleagues at my former firm have nothing to do now that the credit markets are frozen, I have been pretty steady this year because the clients are not so intimately tied to the capital markets.

19- mentioned land use. Land use is so specific to the locality where you are that it is really of no benefit to describe what the practice is like except to state that it’s a lot of night meetings with angry citizens making completely irrational arguments. Also, the rates clients pay for securing development entitlements typically isn’t as high as they pay for standard transactional work.

45,

25 here. I actually like about 85-90% of what I do as a real estate lawyer. But, as you point out, you are a necessary nuisance to most clients, and rates in general are going down because laterals in the partner ranks almost always move downstream. This is particularly true if you do a bunch work for developers, who always complain the most about fees.

Commercial real estate in general is in for a lot more pain over the next few years. Yeah that means distressed asset work. But, on the lending side, that usually means dealing with idiot bankers or servicers trying in vein to save their own ass because they underwrote the deal wrong. Or, if you are working for a borrower, you better get a retainer (which everyone balks at).

37 - being in-house with a RE clilent is not where you want to be right now. In-house legal is viewed merely as overhead by the principals and now that REITs are worth a small fraction of what they used to be, the legal departments are the first ones being trimmed, if not the whole company -- remember General Growth Properties

I am a transactional commercial real estate associate at a local California firm, am entering in my 6th year of practice. I echo most or all of no. 45's comments. My section does not practice any residential real estate (which is common in Cal where realtors and brokers do most of the residential work) but is solely commercial. Those of us that are left are indeed hanging on for dear life. In the boom times, the fire drills were constant. In the down times, they still happen because when a deal does come together, the players are desperate to get it done. Our clients do not take off weekends, they work evenings and expect us to drop everything to get their documents done. Our real estate shareholders tend to make more money than other transactional or litigation shareholders because the billing rates are a little higher and they bring in more dollars (or did, not so much right now). It is a challenging area of the law to practice, assuming you are thinking about commercial real estate. Residential real estate is largely considered the bottom of the rung, so to that extent PE is right, but at least in California, most transactional real estate attorneys are doing large (millions to billion) dollar commercial deals that are pretty interesting.

SoCal small firm (20attys). 3-4 year associate salary: $100K/1800bh. RE involves loan/workout documentation; dealing with building/zoning codes/subdivided land act/subdivison map act/construction/lease (commercial, industrial)issues; etc. We represent a number of regional banks so foreclosure law is also a hot topic. It helps to have a good grasp of corporate and tax law as well.

How about a thread on small bankruptcy law firms that do corporate work (not chapter 13) . Instead of, you know, a practice area that's so dead it's just bones.

Elie, can you just ban PE already.

As demonstrated once again by his stupid comments to this post: he's not intelligent, he's not funny, and perhaps most importantly, he's completely sullied the likeness of Donald Moffat -- one of our most cherished charatcer actors.

I meant "character" ... my apologies to the Stepford Secretary

-55

49, where?

i didn't even know PE was supposed to be funny until 55's comment ... he's just really boring.

57, in No. Va in DC

-49

East coast (non NY) RE litigation firm, 12 attorneys, representing real estate agencies, title abstractors and insurers, sometimes home inspectors. $85K (4th year) with small bonus (less than 10K), 2200 hours, but usually pretty easy biling. Definitely a better job that the insurance defense lit I used to do.

50/25: Explain to me what "distressed asset work" you are doing. I was a biglaw RE associate and sat around waiting for "distressed asset work" until April when I was laid off - it never came. We did alot of "pre-foreclosure" work - modifications and light workouts and restructurings, but no real good billable work. The partners I worked for all had war stories about all the workout and foreclosure work they did in the 1990's, but this time, defaults are not being declared.

So really, just curious, how much of this work do you really have and how many hours a month are you billing?

Cosigning the dead-on statements that PE is unfunny, unintelligent and well past his sell-by date.

If the dude has to spend his entire day crafting these crappy little ego posts, could he at least do it in the lame threads that have no actual legal substance? Not like there's a shortage of those. Go make fun of the jobless in the breadline posts, or something. SOMEONE'S gotta read those ...

I agree with a previous post that a boutique firm can be a great place to start. I had the good fortune of starting my career at one that happened to have fairly "big" clients for a small shop -- Citibank and other larger lenders, some bigger developers, and a leasing practice with national corporate clients, etc. I was thrown in the fire immediately, got client contact on day one, and what I lacked (and in the fast paced practice lacked time to learn/process) in actual knownledge of the law I gained in learning how to interact with clients, lenders, brokers, and the myriad other types that it is essential to know how to deal with properly (agreed, no cell numbers given out, and don't take calls from brokers). The responsibility I had was both satisfying and stressful, but at the end of the day I actually knew I was an essential part of the practice. I got hired away in only 9 months (at 150% of the salary, plus sign on bonus), and found myself in BigLaw surrounded by people my year that had about 1/10th of the experience I had because they were never allowed to run a whole deal on their own, call a client, or do much more than read a title report or review a survey. Being ahead of the curve put me in a great position when that firm started tanking, and while those people who had summered and started their careers there had practically no marketable skills I fared much better in the market, as well as people with several more years under their belts (not that I got pay above my class year, but I got another job when the other 2Ls were floundering for months). So, I say, if you can pick the right small firm it may be a great place to start.

Now, for the downside, a/k/a why I left for BigLaw: Don't believe anyone who says something like "what you're giving up in salary at a small firm is buying quality of life." I worked just as many hours, if not more, and more stressful ones at that, at my small firm, and my pay was about 60% of BigLaw to start. I too was told that real estate had great hours compared to other practice areas ("bankers leave at five, no one closes on a weekend" -- guess what, they do, but they expect you to work on their deals when they're gone); not true. Sorry, there are absolutely fire drills, constantly (at least before the market tanked). You also have to deal with a lot more personal quirks and bullshit at a small firm that, in my opinion, would never fly in BigLaw; I'm not saying you'll only find screaming partners in a small firm, but particularly when it comes to support staff I have found that a lot more bullshit is tolerated in small law. There also will probably be crappy infrastructure, like IT (no IT guy) at a small firm, and in a transactional practice it can really screw with your ability to do your job (and keep your sanity). Finally, I agree with the warning on residential work -- you don't want that to be all you do, you will go crazy, it's boring and insulting to your intelligence if you would rather be working on million dollar deals.

In the end, I'm very glad I did what I did and started small, but surround yourself with smart people, learn all you can, and get the hell out before you lose your mind. That's my advice. Then again, I'm sure this is all a moot point because even those with real estate experience who are in the market right now can't find anything -- good luck trying to transition into the area.....

PE is a funny concept, the guy doing it just isn't funny enough to pull it off properly.

From the standpoint of the trial attorney who has to clean up the mess, I can say without hesitation that real estate attorney in commercial transactions are among the worst I've ever seen. They can fuck up anything, and they usually did. Flying by the seat of the pants seems to be the norm, with outright fraud being very close to most deals. I don't mind the litigation and trial work, but I'll never get over how totally fucked up most real estate attorneys seem to be when it comes to basic competence.

I'm a t14 2L who really really wants to get into RE practice. Every place seems to have their door shut. Any advice anyone can give me? Should I just quit?

Real estate, as compared with other commercial work, tends to have a very grimy feel to it, at least on the east coast. Your mileage may vary.

61,

Sure. I work at a midsize firm in a major metro. it's not glamorous, but the workout work that I am doing involves

1) working out underperforming/non-performing real estate loans made by middle market and small market lenders who got way overextended. These banks thought they were just going to ride out the downturn on TARP/TALF type funds. But when they got shut out of that, the regulators came in and said "clean it up or we're shutting you down". So they actually had to stop dicking around and get resolution on some of these deals to try and get their books straight. Yeah, most of its forbearance/loan mod/pre-foreclosure type stuff. But we are also seeing a lot of deed in lieu situations and loan sales now (with huge haircuts). I have some litigation experience, so I'm throwing in on the foreclosure cases too. There's a fair amount of bankruptcy related counseling too.

2) Working on business bankruptcy matters involving real estate assets. Stuff like 363 sales in reorganization cases. Or advising landlords who have tenants in serious trouble and may be looking to file.

3) Just recently, we have a few developer clients who are well capitalized and pretty savvy (I know, those guys are few and far between nowadays), who are now looking to buy REO from banks for a song. Some guys are raising money to do it, some guys are just going out on their own. The deals are usually smaller but can be incredibly complicated depending on the type of asset and level of distress it is facing.

We're a midsize firm, so we have the rate structure that makes this type of work possible. If you are at a bigger firm, yeah, that work might not have come your way because of price concerns from these types of clients. If you are waiting for the CMBS workout flow to open up, then you are absolutely right. In a lot of those deals, nobody (not even the servicers) seems to know their ass from a hole in the ground because of how complicated those structures can be. Too many cooks in the kitchen there.

My experience is much like 63's, but I'm not quite as far along as s/he is. I (top 20 law school, honors) found myself entering the job market last year and couldn't find anybody hiring until several months later some networking got me an interview at a small (approx. 20 attorneys) NYC commercial RE firm that has several big name clients and a large roster of reliable smaller clients.

Business is booming. We've got more billable work than we know what to do with. I, for example, am on track to bill around 2400 hours this year. Much of it is work that would be too expensive to have done at a biglaw shop, but most of it is from big-name clients who can afford but don't want to pay biglaw fees. And even at our discount rates, we have trouble with clients disputing bills.

Hours: When I heard about the job, I was told that real estate attorneys never stay past 7, and never work on weekends. It's rare for me to leave before 8, and I occasionally have work to do on the weekend. I am expected to be available via blackberry on off hours as well.

Fire Drills: Yes. I would say at least once a month I'll be in the office until after midnight.

Salary: Now to drop the hammer: I'm making less than half of what a BigLaw first year associate is, plus bad health insurance that I have to pay half of, no bar stipends, no free meals or car services home.

Admin: The bad thing about a small shop is that you don't have the admin support that biglaw offices have. Our IT guy is an independent contractor who comes in as needed. But if your computer is on the fritz now, you'd better hope that motion isn't due tomorrow...

Experience: Within the first few weeks, I had communicated with clients, attended court hearings, talked to judges & their clerks, and written litigation and discovery papers. A few months later, and I was given depositions and trial work to do on my own.

Among the latest posters, 61, 63 and 69 make solid points.

But can we please (i.e., this merits a brief thread, or perhaps just a PSA, straight from Lat), please, once and for all, clarify what constitutes a "boutique" (whatever the practice area may be). I always thought it meant (i) founding partners who left biglaw as either partners or senior associates, (ii) lateral junior to midlevel associate hires from top biglaw firms, and (iii) equal, if not superior pay of biglaw. To borrow from PE, "that is all."

70 is right, there is a difference between what is commonly called a boutique and what is just a small or mid-sized firm. My understanding has always been that there aren't really many real estate "boutique" firms, in the same way that there are lots of IP boutique firms....

68 - Sounds like enough to keep you busy. You are right that at my firm (AmLaw 30) we didn't get that work because our rates were so stupidly high - clients didn't want to use us (borrowers or lenders) and the firm frowned upon that work because it just couldn't be profitable. So you guys hiring?

-42

I work in government land use in a major metropolitan city. The pay is bad - about $65k / year and I've been practicing law for 5 years, but I haven't heard of one layoff and I think we picked up about 5 new hires this year. I typically work 7:30 to 5 and I've dropped by my office on the weekend maybe three times in two years, not to work, just to grab something I left at my desk - the office was completely deserted.

What's nice albeit somewhat demeaning is that you get favorable recognition for being the slightest bit ambitious. So many government lawyers do as little as possible just to get through the day that if you show any aptitude at all, you become a rock star around the office.

I've been thinking about life after government, but for now I consider myself lucky to have a somewhat recession-proof job. Does anybody have any advice on translating land use skills into private practice?

why the picture of the wachtell offices/ cbs building?

70 here.

I think "boutique" is a term that is losing its meaning due to overuse by firms trying to give themselves a little extra prestige. For example, in my interview, the managing partner of the small firm I work for described the firm as a "boutique". But it's really not; it's just small.

The term "boutique" carries some cachet, so now basically any small firm is calling itself a boutique. Or maybe small firms think "boutique" is synonymous with "small". It isn't.

My understanding of "boutique" is something like "small on purpose." So Biglaw talent in a smaller, (usually) more specialized setting.

Want to go out on a limb and say something for residential work. I think there is a definite bias on this board from people who want to "do" complicated or "intellectually stimulating" deals. Fine. But I have known a number of attorneys who, after graduating from no-name law schools, built quite lucrative practices on residential (and small commercial) real estate. The business model is usually along the lines of having paralegals do most of the work and the lawyer provides oversight, handles face time with clients, and deals with the complicated issues. In an upscale (but not outrageously so) suburb of a major city, one lawyer of this ilk I know bills his each of his five paralegals out at $150 / hr and himself out at $350. He works 9-5 and takes vacation when he wants. From what I understand, he makes somewhere in the mid six figures. Obviously not biglaw partner money, but definitely respectable and 100% better lifestyle. Of course, the mindset here is to built a focused, profitable business that does a few things well. This isn't for folks who want to be intellectually challenged every day or do anything innovative. But for those of us who are entrepreneurial and are more turned on by the idea of building a successful business than thinking deep thoughts about complicated legal problems, doesn't seem bad at all. Of course, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be an associate at one of these firms--to the extent such positions exist, I wouldn't be surprised if you're talking about 40-50K and crappy benefits.

51- 37 here. Just to clarify, I didn't mean in-house with a developer, but rather in-house with a corporation with a large RE footprint that deals with a mix of commercial leasing, RE finance, land use/environmental, etc.

Do any of you know any good mid-sized or boutique RE firms in Chicago with some RE litigation work? I'm a laid off litigator from BIGLAW who wishes she would have done RE from the outset...its my true passion. I chose appellate/federal litigation b/c of my top 10 law school, law review and clerkship when I should have ignored the prestige factor and done what interests me.