So this was a gay death panel that Lat attended?

more important--what are the hours and the money like?

From personal experience, trusts & estates does not generally work well in a big firm unless the clients are multimillionaires who need advanced planning. Especially in smaller markets, trusts & estates is best done in a boutique law firm. In order to practice trusts & estates properly, a solid working knowledge of real estate law and small business corporate law is also important, as both real estate and small businesses are assets commonly owned by your clients. And for basic estate planning, many lawyers have a flat fee schedule that the clients greatly appreciate. But yes, keeping up with current changes in both state and federal law is extremely important, especially state law. But it can be very rewarding both personally and professionally, and all human beings should have at least basic planning, so the potential client base is unlimited.

You can do pretty well in complex estate litigation, obviously depending on the size of the estate.

1 - Tax law comes into play much more with larger estates - when the strategies to save on taxes become pretty complicated. For most married couples, an A-B trust setup will do just fine. But taxes do creep in (for example, cap gains and income tax show up in a few places depending on how you set things up).

- one part of T&E duo

The hours are generally lower, which makes it difficult to practice trusts & estates in BigLaw because efficiency is the key, not racking up the billables. Compensation can be whatever you want it to be, depending on your marketing skills. But it does take years to build a stable of referral sources.

Yes, tax law is important, although with the economy tanking and the personal exemption currently at $3.5M per person, basic planning often focuses on family dynamics rather than tax planning. And in smaller markets, tax planning can be accomplished by revocable trusts using the personal exemption to fund a family trust and then using the marital deduction for anything over that to protect up to $7M. And of course, the estate planning attorney has to be able to assist clients with funding the trusts during their lifetime because failure to do so can leave the trusts empty due to jtwros and beneficiary designations.

In many big firms, trusts & estates is considered a "loss leader" of services, only there to keep their big clients from going to another law firm for those services, with that other law firm trying to take the rest of the business away. When BigLaw laid me off and closed the trusts & estates department in my smaller market office, they did not realize that a number of the small business corporate clients with whom I had an estate planning relationship would prefer to follow me to my new (sole practitioner) firm because I also handled their corporate work. Trusts & estates is all about the ability to create relationships with individual clients, which unfortunately, many lawyers do not do well.

Unless you're well connected, it's going to be hard to generate referrals and business for the first couple years (decades?). Sure, Wachtell does trusts & estates, but most likely unless you know some Kennedys, you're going to have a hard time getting your practice off the ground.

And if you did have those kind of connections, you'd probably be able to land a big firm gig anyway.

T+E is a fun area. More interesting than soul-sucking corporate (illegitimate children! gifts of art! weird old people!), and not as much fighting (usually more maneuvering to avoid fighting) as litigation. I agree with the above that T+E is hard to sustain in a large firm, except for those firms that also have in-house money management. I think those are common in Boston and Philly, but not elsewhere. So, for example, in Boston you have Ropes, which has a 20-person T+E dept - the partners are trustees of trusts totaling about $4 billion. Those trustee fees help make the dept really profitable. Not as possible at other firms without the in-house money mgmt.

Smallish firm w/ 3 people doing the T+E work - not a T+E boutique. Hours are def way less than biglaw - 1800 billables for full-time are pretty standard (sometimes even 1600 depending on the firm) and they don't usually stress out as much if you don't make hours. Also with flexibility eg telecommuting once a week, but I think that is highly firm specific. The pay is decent, not great compared to biglaw but good. It is also individual - the salary you get coming may or may not be the same as other people in the firm - you have to negotiate for better $$$. I make 125K working 4 days a week.

I'm a 5th year T&E associate at a 120-lawyer firm in a major market. Pay is well south of $150 but hours are steady and I have good job security. My hours tend to run below my firm's expectation for all practice groups (i.e. I have to work really hard to eke out 1800-1900 hours but it has been very steady through the recession). The work is an odd mixture of 80% brainless revocable trust planning (which I can have a paralegal draft) and 20% mind-blowing advanced tax planning. I also have to know quite a bit of corporate, partnership and real estate stuff and sometimes even advise on the structure of related mid-market M&A work to coordinate with the owners' estate planning. I expect to have to get out there and press the flesh a lot to get my own referral sources if I want to increase the pay situation. On the other hand, the firm is happy to let me cruise along doing the partner's work, which there is plenty of, if I don't complain about pay. In this market I'm not complaining.

T&E: the dermatologists of the legal field. Easy hours and clean hands.

Trusts & estates also have interesting ethical issues. In my market, it is not uncommon for certain attorneys to "counsel" their clients into naming the drafting attorney as the trustee and/or executor. I have chosen not to go that route, and prefer to develop the relationship so that when the inevitable occurs, I am called to assist with the administration, but have not created the potential conflict of having to administer (and potentially defend if a conflict arises among beneficiaries) a document I drafted. And yes paralegals can do the work, but the attorney is still supposed to review it. Having the attorney draft and do it efficiently is actually more cost effective to a point.

4 - Very true. Nice comment. Thanks for the insight.

I've always been interested in T and E as a practice area. I'm curious, has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

So how do you get into a T&E practice?

I forgot to mention that my firm is in a major market, so the pay might be more than in smaller cities, and I am a 6th yr.

- 11

Doesn't Milbank have one of the top T&E practices in the country? I only ask because I am considering accepting an offer from them based on their (supposedly) strong T&E practice....

Small firm (15 atties) in SoCal. Hours 8.30-6.30. Salary: $90K (3rd yr). Billable requirement: 1850. Besides T&E, the practice is a mixed bag: business law (incl. M&A), real estate, tax, employment and T&E litigation. I like the fact that we are equipped to assist pretty much anyone who has some legal issues; not something I was able to do at BigLaw (priced out of the market for most people).

20 makes a good point - "we are equipped to assist pretty much anyone who has some legal issues."

Whenever we get a legal question from our aunt at Thanksgiving, or from someone we meet at a cocktail party, we actually have a clue about how to answer it (unlike most Big Law attorneys).

3rd year associate in 16 attorney firm in third tier market. Base pay is $130. Stated hour requirement is 1950, actual acheived is probably closer to 1750 (in a good year). Clients range from $7M - $1B+. Projects are challenging and client relationships are rewarding.

One way to get into a trusts & estates practice from a non-law firm profession is to try to get a position with a bank that has a trust department. Many banks have them but call them "private client" groups. That is also a good way for trusts & estates lawyers to take a break and learn how to properly administer a will or trust. Also, once you have had to administer crappy documents because the lawyer who drafted it did not think outside the box when he said to keep a house or business in trust, you will never make that same mistake.

10 - Wachtell's T&E department deals mainly with (a) work for lawyers at the firm or (b) work for top executives of client companies.

I have been practicing trusts & estates law for over 15 years. Before that, I obtained my CPA license, which is useful because T & E lawyers must be comfortable with numbers. Spent time in small firm (and eventually closed due to partner leaving) a T & E practive, then in bank trust department, then in small (3 atty) boutique firm, then in BigLaw (closed in recent layoffs by home office), and now have my own firm. I actually work from home and see clients at their advisors offices, their homes or their places of employment. Right now working 15-20 hours per week, and have already almost matched in terms of monthly receipts my BigLaw salary. I have minimal overhead, so it all comes to me. But then I have always drafted my own documents, handled my own administrations and pretty much run even without a secretary. Not difficult, you just have to be very organized.

Any tips for 2nd and 3rd year law students who might be interested in joining a boutique T&E practice? Do these firms hire law students or is it mostly laterals? What's the best way to approach finding these firms, let alone applying?

19: Yes, largely on the strength of one estate tax partner, Jonathan Blattmachr, who has become infamous for orchestrating highly sophisticated and sometimes fraudulent (according to the IRS) tax shelters. But Milbank is an excellent firm and one of very few big ones that seems to value its T&E practice.

26 - most boutique T & E firms are obviously not going to interview at law schools, so you will have to seek them out in the area in which you want to live and practice. I recommend sending a resume to the managing partner asking for a meeting. Most are happy to meet with you and give you suggestions about how to get into the practice. Some may even be hiring, as this practice, especially in the non-taxable, basic estate planning context, is constant and/or growing. But don't expect a huge salary, because that ain't gonna happen in a small boutique firm. And expect to do alot of marketing with what seems like no results because it takes years to develop the contacts and reputation where advisors will send their clients to you. In this practice, your reputation is everything.

i was just wondering, for those who have been working 3-10 years, what is some of your backgrounds before that? As in school and that sort of thing for students who are interested in the field.

27 - since you seem to be on the inside, will the January starters at Milbank actually start?

Curious--I have always been jealous of the small shops that you see carved into mountain towns--Jackson Hole, Aspen, Vail--that are T&E lawyers.

Anyone from mountain town T&E reading this blog? Can you comment on how you got into T&E law in big money, small markets? Theres GOBS of money in those mountain towns, particularly really tony ones like Sun Valley, Jackson, Aspen.

I am curious if you need a blue-chip pedigree, or if these attys are usually retired biglaw folks who ran away from the rat race (and took years to build a practice in their mountain home).

Anyone??? This is my legal dream, and I want to know how to get there.

wow....looks like the trolls stayed away from this one....loving all the good, constructive comments here. keep em coming. This is VERY uncommon for this site.

can someone please answer 26's question? Thanks.

This was actually a civil discussion of ATL and didn't me hate all lawyers.

I love these threads; they're the best thing ATL has done in years.

I'm a Biglaw guy, but I've always had the impression that there is a lot more "playing the part" if you are going to do T&E work for medium to high net worth individuals. You know, need to act like a blueblood, wear lots of bowties and tweed if you're a guy, plaid jackets and pearls for the women, have to have gone to the top schools (and when someone asks you where you went to school, they mean prep school), talk about lacrosse, summering in the South of France, stuff like that? That's certainly been the impression from the big firms I've worked for, and most of the T&E types are either hot women, who last for a few years and then marry a hedgie or similar and/or people who themselves come from money and end up doing work for family, friends, etc.
etc.

I've always had the impression that that's true in smaller firms and boutiques as well, and I've heard stories from friends about how you just have to put up with things like the client grabbing your ass or something like that, because the client is some old rich guy who doesn't know his ass from his ascot in a way that you just don't see in normal Biglaw work.

T&E lawyers, is there any truth to this? Is it true in smaller firms and boutiques, too?

I was lucky to get a biglaw(ish) job out of law school with an opening in the T+E dept. Boutique firms are harder to find as they don't interview etc, many will only hire laterals. I had no idea who/what the boutique firms were until I was looking to move on from biglaw. Try to find a T+E lawyer who is an alumnus of your law school, contact them and ask if they will meet you for coffee/lunch and pick their brain about the state of the market in that city and the boutique firms that are out there/the ones that are hiring.

34 - I am in a smaller market, in a beach resort town on the East Coast. In T & E law, you dress depending on the client you are meeting. If you are going into a big corporation, you wear a suit. If you are going to someone's home, as I often do (I am a woman), I will wear a skirt and sweater, maybe a blazer, pretty casual. When I was out of law school, some older clients would ask when the lawyer was going to meet with them when I entered the conference room, because I looked younger than I was and had long blond hair. But now I am known in my small market, and clients don't do that anymore. Or maybe I just look old, haha. I went to what the people on ATL would consider a TTT law school. But 15 years later, nobody asks, and in all honesty, your clients don't care because all they care about is how they got to you. They are trusting the person who referred them to you, which is why reputation is key. And in my smaller market, I am rarely dealing with the rich old guys, as you put it...my clients are just like you, me, your parents, my parents, your grandparents, my grandparents, etc. They want to feel comfortable with you.

34 - yes, that is true, esp in biglaw. VERY stuffy, partners all wear suits every day, went to private school, come from old money. On my first day in the office they took me to lunch, and talked about their boats. I think I said about 3 words. I didn't experience any client harassment though, because the partners all hoarded their clients and wouldn't let the associates meet them.

27 here again.

30: I'm not on the inside--sorry. Just happened to spend a bit of time in the tax shelter world.

1, et al: I've noted that many premier tax boutiques have estate planning capacities. Sometimes it's just one or two partners but the two specialities can certainly be symbiotic.

19. As an FYI, Blattmachr is no longer with Milbank Tweed, he retired. I imagine they retain a good book of EP business and some skilled T&E attorneys that would be good mentors. Blattmachr was perhaps the only infamous tax attorney in the country. his departure will likely have some impact on the firm's T&E practice.

26. I would seriously consider a JD/CPA or an LLM in taxation (NYU, FL, Georgetown) or estate planning(UM). At the very least, take plenty of tax and T&E courses at your JD level.

27,

Blattmacher is no longer at Milbank. I think he set up some type of software service he peddles to T&E attorneys to compete against Wealth Counsel, etc.

30,

Sorry, I can't answer your question because I am an ex-Milbanker (left in 2005) to do my own trust and estate work but most clients walking in the door were guys like Puffy, Katherine Hepburn, etc. Milbank's T&E department was based off Rockefeller money so who knows how profitable it is now. Pretty fun and mind blowing stuff.

While it's true that there are many potential clients out there as "everyone needs a Will," low level drafting work doesn't pay much and it can become quite time consuming working out various details that the client requests become part of the document. You are not going to be able to bill for all this time. Clients tend to be very fee sensitive. Remember, you're billing people, not companies. It's a different mindset when someone writes a personal check for fees.

Real money in the field comes from planning and estate administration for high net worth individuals. This work can be quite lucrative, but is hard to come by as most high net worth people already have representation or if they are looking for someone new, they'll go with someone that a friend or relative recommends who will typically be someone tied in to the right clubs, organizations, etc. in the area. Also, high level estate planning is very technically complex. It's very easy to make a mistake if you're going it alone and don't have a more experienced attorney to collaborate with.

17 - Go to Georgetown Law and get an LLM in Tax, with a concentration in Estate Planning. I believe they have an Estate Planning certificate now. That' would make you a very good candidate for a T&E position.

But beware - if the estate tax is repealed, then that business will no longer be viable because estate tax planning drives that industry. Repeal is highly unlikely now due to the economy and massive deficit, but it is something to be aware of.

One thing to think about in starting a T&E practice is the rather nasty malpractice exposure. Here in my state, the statute of limitation for legal malpractice commences when the error is or should have been discovered. That usually means the SoL finally runs only four years after the client's death. So, gradually, over time, your malpractice premiums increase. And, since the insurance is claims made, you have to carry it until your own demise.

Nevertheless, I am strongly considering opening an E&T practice.

Given the revenue needs of the United States Government - the chance the estate tax gets repealed is almost exactly equal to my chances of winning the lottery or dating Marissa Miller - which is none.

I don't personally work at an Estate Planning firm, however, I "clerked" at a firm that did that sort of work in college.

It was a very small office, two partners and an associate who they hired because one of the partners was thinking about retiring in a few years. I put "clerked" in parentheses above because it was some legal work, but just as much file work and being a runner.

My experience there was good, and my impression having working in a different area of law now was that in an established practice, T&E work pays very well for the amount of work necessary. None of the attorneys in my office worked long hours, and they all did pretty well. By "not long hours" I mean they often came into the office after 10 and left before 5, and had time to play a couple games of golf a week. However, when they weren't in the office, they did spend a lot of time on client development. Those golf games and lunches at the country club were how a lot of our business came in.

In my [brief] experience in T&E I had the chance to draft about 60-100 basic estate planning documents. Most of it was very boilerplate stuff and we had paralegals and secretaries handle the initial paperwork, reviewing it when they finished.

However, on rare occasions there were interesting cases. The most awkward was one where a client came in with his 2nd wife. He said very little but she was adamant that he leave nothing to all of his children from his previous marriage. Because I was concerned, I asked if he was SURE he didn't want to leave them anything at all and she replied for him that they weren't accepting of the new marriage.

At this point I asked her to leave-actually I had to insist she leave because I'd already asked when they arrived.

We then went over what had been requested. It was sad because while he didn't seem incapacitated in any way, he just seemed like he wasn't in charge. It was like he was just going along with whatever his new wife wanted. I felt bad for his children but it was ultimately his decision, even if it seemed like he was just doing it to please the new wifey.

46, stories like yours are the reason I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL WE GET AROUND TO DIVORCE LAW!

Admiralty firms!!!!!! I want comment- I have been practicing for two years and love it

Having worked at big firms and boutiques alike, here are my impressions

1) In the biglaw firms I have been at, T & E was an afterthought. Purely a support area. And margins were low. I noticed it was a lot women with kids doing a lot of telecommuting (which there's nothing wrong with), with a few old crusty tax guys mixed in. Capable attorneys for sure, but those lawyers were not valued contributors by the powers that be unless they had massive books (i.e. a preeminent T & E/tax lawyer). Hours from the group were usually some of the lowest in the firm, and it was tolerated but reflected in compensation. As a whole, I think T & E is moving out of large firms.

2) I have also practiced at a real estate/corporate type boutique, and the T & E lawyers were valued much more there. I think the reason for that was in a small firm, you really are in a true partnership and the partners usually need each other. Not everything is focused on how they can squeeze every last nickel out of each asset. Also, a boutique has to be more of a generalist for smaller business clients, who usually aren't sophisticated enough or do not want to engage separate firms for separate subject areas. Lot more one stop shoppers in a boutique setting, and everyone who's smart enough to run a successful business also knows they need a competent estate plan.

Never practiced in a straight T & E boutique, but I'd recommend the boutique setting to anyone whose interested.

Another great thread. Please do one on bankruptcy law, which is mostly a boutique practice outside of New York and Delaware, and which includes not just corporate but individual bankruptcy work that big firms almost never do.

I'm a 3L and this has been a very intriguing discussion.

One question for all: Is it an absolute necessity to take Federal Income Tax Law while in school? Sounds like this might be necessary for T&E work.

51, you should take federal tax no matter what kind of law you are going to practice. It's basic knowledge and everyone should know the basics. You won't be one of the morons complaining about how bonuses are taxed at a higher rate or how you can't run any small business because the government takes all your money even though you don't even turn a profit.

Also, if I have to explain offsetting long and short term capital gains and losses and wash sales to my wife one more time I am going to scream.

This is 51 again....I didn't see 39's response before posting my question. Thanks, Everyone!

46, I just did a plan for a client who was *just* through his divorce. 2 kids from first marriage and he is leaving $$ to them only if new wife dies first. The kids are 12 and 10 and he only met the new wife last year. Good grief!

Anyone know anything about T&E in Boston? Will the tax LLM I'm getting help me any?

55 Depends upon where you get tax LLM from

55, ditto. Georgetown or NYU will help, and BU. Have you already been practicing or are you an 09 grad?

BU LLM, '09 grad - heavy tax & other "corporate" law classes in law school - half of my LLM classes are T&E, half are business-tax

What about T&E litigation? Do T&E boutiques that draft trusts, etc, also do litigation work as well, or do they outsource that work?

Thanks. ATL threads that are free from trolls are very helpful.

55, it should give you a leg up on other recent grads, but I think the market is still pretty thin right now. Most firms look for 2+ years experience plus the LLM, although I don't know how many people there are with LLMs out there either.

59, some do, some don't. Depends on the firm.

T&E is hard. It is tax driven. Its not about forms or boilerplate unless you are doing super simple stuff. Most T&E attorneys today are tax attorneys as well. So if you are doing super simple stuff, you are competiing with legalzoom.com There is a lot to know and it takes years to not mess it up. I see juniors all the time messing stuff up. Every word means something in a trust or Will. For those people who talk about the $3.5mm estate tax threshold are clueless, because most states have a lower estate tax threshold. Congrats, you just cost your client $107,000 tax bill in NY and you a malpractice action. Also, trusts are key today and there is a special area of the Code just for them.

E&T litigation can be large, ugly and pleasantly expensive. The worst example I ever dealt with was a fight over $40 million and a second husband. But even more modest estates often generate probate fights.

Re: the LL.M. Not really necessary at all, at least out here in the West, and you sure don't need to do NYU.

54 -

46 here. Did you just write down his wishes or was there any conversation? Sounds terrible. Hopefully you are missing some big picture information.

I had another case where I thought the facts were similar, but then as I spoke at length with the client. It turned out he hadn't filled out my T&E intake form correctly (we used them to save time by getting basic & necessary info-a good prescreening method).

The client came from a wealthy family and while he wasn't going to leave much to his young children, it turned out they had trust funds from their grandparents.

I still felt weird about it because I'm not married and didn't/don't yet understand the concept of just leaving everything to a relatively new person when you've created people (children) of your own.

Joan Burda (moderator): solo practitioner in Lakewood, Ohio, and author of “Estate Planning for Same-Sex Couples” (ABA 2004) and “Gay, Lesbian and Transgender Clients: A Lawyer’s Guide” (ABA 2008)

LOL Lakewood

BigLaw does some significant T&E work. There's not only Milbank, but also Weil and Simpson.

No schticks!? No trolls!? This CAN'T be ATL!!

Is the experience of a big law corporate practice helpful in transitioning to a T&E practice? After how many years do you think it is too late to switch practices?

#62 here. Yes, Will and Trust forms are out there and are a perennial source of legal fees for straightening out the messes that the "How to Avoid Probate" people make of their lives...

Worked as a corporate associate, got laid off in last economic down cycle, got a tax LLM, re-upped as a Biglaw estate planning associate and hated it. Transitioned back into corporate at another Biglaw firm and eventually moved in house. Sophisticated estate planning is largely tax driven and is much more than boilerplate. More conservative personalities (clients expect lawyers to look the part). Also, expect pushback on the bills no matter how rich the client is. Tough to make biglaw hours, though you may be very busy (lots of flat fee work for routine planning where you might end up leaving $$$ on the table and lots of .2 and .3s). Occasionally very interesting, many times dry as shite...Let me know how interesting you think those GST tax regs are if you decide to pursue. Always thought it might not be hugely difficult to grind out a pretty good living planning smaller, less sophisticated estates using turnkey software and cranking on the volume, though.

48- How did you go about getting into Admiralty law and what part of the country do you practice in? Did you get an LLM in it? I tried to get a job at a firm specializing in this area for my 2L summer, but didn't have any luck.

The best part of T&E practice for a young lawyer is that it is not that difficult to develop a client base. If you belong to any social group or church, it doesn't take long to start performing services for them. Granted, you don't start as a major rain maker, but the productivity does not go unnoticed.

I suppose I should know the answer to this, but is "Trust and Estates" a fully accredited area of the law as defined by Congress, the United States Supreme Court, the several states' legislatures, or the several states courts of last resort

If you want to do T&E in a small firm environment (solo, office share, tiny firm) it's about:

networking (referrals)
efficiency (simple estate plan = flat fees)
and flexibility (pay the rent)

I do estate planning, about 30% simple (no tax) planning, 20% revocable trust A/B-family trust plans for clients with estates of less than 7M. More money than that I refer (I rarely have clients with this much money - I think they mostly go to the large firms to start out). I don't like estate planning enough to want the liability for whatever shelterish arrangement will do the most good for high net worth estates, and I know plenty of folks who want the work and will do a good job.

The rest of the time I do probate administration, the occasional trust contest, medicaid-lien avoidance plan and transactional stuff - RE, small business M&A and succession planning. My clients are overwhelmingly small business owners, lots of professional service providers. My net last year was $105K in Kansas City. I work about 50 hours a week, not counting funerals, lunches, volunteer meetings, and giving talks about estate & business planning to the Lions Club or whoever. I've been at it for four years. Very lean years in the beginning.

Great thread! Been practicing as a T&E lawyer for 7 years. And have a lot to add for those who wish to know.

As has been said above, once you get past the basic level, it's is almost entirely tax driven. And tax driven in a way that most people don't understand ("What do you mean there's a 'gift tax'?"). Everything *most* people understand about tax is in Subtitle A (Income Tax) of the tax code. Most of the knowledge you need as a sophisticated estate planner is in Subtitle B (Transfer Tax). But you still need to understand Subtitle A to understand how to place your clients in the best position vis-a-vis the transferred assets (and the income taxes of estates and trusts have their own Subchapter (J) in Subtitle A). Most of the sophisticated estate planners I know do the estate and gift tax returns in house (instead of farming them out to accountants), and if they do not they at least review and revise them.

And that's just the transactional side of things. Whether you're doing high net worth planning or not, there's always T&E litigation, which is actually a lot of fun! Yes, I know I'm sick. But it really is the best of both worlds: understanding the tax law, state law (probate) and other implications of planning + litigation! What could be better?

And, as said earlier, T&E attys must have at least working knowledge of ancillary areas like: guardianship, business entities, deferred compensation, and family law.

On the business side, I co-sign with earlier commenters. T&E does not generate billable hours like corporate work (transaction or litigation) and, with certain exceptions, it seems like it's being phased out of most large firms. Administering the $500M estate of some corporate titan generates a pretty nice fee. But if you don't have BigLaw overhead, administering 10-15 $5M estates of moderately successful families is probably even better.

How to get in the area? T&E and tax courses in law school of course. An LL.M. in tax or estate planning is not yet a requirement, but it is close to one in Florida (God's Waiting Room/Estate Planning Mecca). I'd get it if I were planning to practice here. Appear conservative (in dress and comportment); especially if you're young. Successful wealthy older people are not trusting their family legacy to the kid with the goatee and the faux-hawk. It might not be fair but...

Sorry for the geeky explosion. This topic just hit on my practice area; one which I love and which I think gives great balance between intellectual stimulation vs. lifestyle. Back to hiding under a rock.

ATL, open thread: tax attorney, please

Sorry, been out of the office for a couple hours (4/7/8/9 here). T & E is about relationships, whether they be with the uber-wealhy or mom & pop. Much is tax driven, but much is driven by family dynamics. To make a successful practice of it, you have to have the knowledge, but be able to have the ideas to help your clients accomplish their family dynamics goals. Maybe in terms of biglaw and all the crazy transaction that are created there it is not satisfying, but in terms of really being a lawyer and counsellor at law, within certain parameters, it is my job to help make their goals for their wealth, whether it is $1 or $100M, are achieved. Most estate planning is basic, not even tax driven at this point. But that does not mean it is not satisfying. Trying to figure out all possible outcomes for a person's goals can be extermely challenging. Do I make alot each plan I do, not in BigLaw terms. But do I make alot in terms of other lawyers in my market, yes. And I feel good about what I do, because my clients trust me and rely on me. I don't charge for calls or emails, it is my job to make sure that they are educated and understand their plans. That is part of my flat fee, that relationship where they can call me and ask questions. And I, one small lawyer in one medium sized town, am very happy and proud with my practice, what I do, and the compensation I make. I would only wish that on all lawyers...

*ejaculates in 76's eye*

-gross old man

77 - nobody missed your troll ways. I feel sorry that you seem to be incapable of intelligent dialogue. Best wishes on your future.

End of thread. Congratulations all (especially editors) for a thread that provided useful information to those seeking to make a way in this frightening economy. Keep the faith.

Thanks for all the constructive comments!

Anyone know how much carryover there is between the tax and private client groups in BigLaw? I have an offer but have been told that our tiny T & E group will not be taking on any associates in my city and there were layoffs in the group last year. What do you all make of the strategy of starting in the tax group (which is thriving) and then transitioning within the firm or outside to a smaller firm for T & E practice.

Also, because my start date is deferred I'm interested in hearing practitioners' thoughts on value of LLM (NYU hopefully) versus taking a tax policy fellowship or doing other public interest work for the year.

The future of T&E seems more and more likely to be in boutiques and small/solo practices. Certainly in NYC, big firms are actively trimming and/or abandoning the practice area. There's a relative handful of Biglaw T&E players in NYC who combine exceptional tax creativity and rainmaking abilities and therefore will be able to practice wherever they want for as long as they want. However, most T&E partners in NYC Biglaw are viewed within their own firms as nerdy anachronisms whose time has passed. In Biglaw, the practice overwhelmingly attracts young women who want families and/or cushy jobs running charitable organizations, which is not necessarily bad but further undermines the seriousness with which firm administrators view the practice.

80 - Starting in the tax department is a very good way to get your foot in the foor. Especially in larger markets (ie. NYC), much estate planning is tax driven. And knowing tax law has never hurt anyone. I don't know the value of an LLM because I have a CPA. The attorneys I know who have LLMs have long since forgotten their tax training, but if it is current, it could be a plus. So, short answer to question, tax can be a way into T & E. Bu bigger question is, are you the attorney who is capable of personal relationships, whether with the celebrities and socialites who have money or with the "regular people" who just want you to make sure that what they have goes where they want. I have clients on both ends of the spectrum, and they stay with me because they trust and like me. It is a personal relationship. Can you run with it? If so, then the T & E practice needs more people like you. If not, then consider another area of practice.

Thanks 82.

That's what attracted me to the field: real people (who I get to interact with - how refreshing!) & problem solving.

Thanks 82.

That's what attracted me to the field: real people (who I get to interact with - how refreshing!) & problem solving.

-80

83/84 - Lawyers/people like you and me are what will make this profession survive. So many have forgotten that the second part is "counsellor:. That is the most amazing part of what I do, that if I do it well (and I most certainly try!!!!), I make an impact on my client's life, and his or her family's life. My clients want to know I am there for them, and if something happens to me, that someone I have trained is there for them in my place. It is a joyous way of practicing. And I still drive a 2005 corvette and live on the beach, so even though I practice among "normal" people, I can still live a satisfying and prosperous life. Oh, and I don't owe my life to "the firm":.

I'm a 2L in a part-time program on the East Coast. I am currently an independent financial advisor, and have been doing that for the past 9 years. I worked for two of the biggest of the big Wall Street firms before finding out I was accepted to law school and moved my practice to a local independent firm.

I hope to get into T&E when I graduate in 2012. I feel that it is a pretty natural extension of what I have been doing for the past decade (advising clients, getting familiar with their assets and family situations).

My questions to the group are: What are the courses that I should absolutely take before I graduate?; and are there any clerkships/internships that I should seek out as well?

I'm considering clerking for the local probate judge next spring or summer to get familiar with that side of things, but that position is pretty competitive, so I need some fallback options.

Thanks in advance.

85-

It seems like a very rewarding practice. Thanks for your support. Good luck to you.

(Apologies for double posting. I have never commented before, I usually roll my eyes and close the browser window before I get to comment 3!)

86 - I am in Virginia, and we do not have probate judges, so I cannot help you there. We have a system of Commissioners of Accounts. In what state do you hope to practice? Your background seems primed for this type of practice. And good T & E lawyers are always in short demand. Try to locate the boutique firms in your area and talk to them. They will love your background and ready-built referral sources. I wish you the best of luck, truly!

87 - it is a rewarding practice. It is like the olden days, where lawyers were an important part of the family dynamics. My clients know that they can call on my cell phone or office phone, anytime, and if I don't answer, I will call them back as soon as I can. One financial advisor tells me I am the epitomy of UPOD - under promise, over deliver. I get my docs out in 24 -48 hours. I follow up with them. It is a relationship. And it is such a satisfying way to practice law and use the knowledge I have gained over so many years practice. Will I be a gazillionaire? No. But can I keep my vette, my house on the beach, and go on nice vacations every year? Yes. Do I work 16 hours every day including weekends, no. Do I work some evenings and weekend because that is a convenient time for my clients to meet, yes. But I love my life. I nede to write a thank you note to the BigLaw firm that closed my department and laid me off for kicking me in the ass to do my practice my way. And yes, I am set up with all the proper bank accounts, insurance and engagement letters. I am different, not stupid.

Junior associate in a large T&E practice.

Hours are manageable (much more than other practices), work often is challenging but with enough simplicity injected to maintain sanity, pay is on par with other junior associates. Yes, tax is a large part of the practice. However, tax, like any other area of the law, actually is quite understandable.

You won't build a book of business unless you're in a small to mid-size firm. Large firms have protective partners and clients of the firm. Small to mid-size firms offer you the ability to learn both the law and the business. There is no shame in starting big and moving smaller for this reason.

To be honest, T&E associates have it quite good. It's a tough practice to master with a large learning curve. However, you build your skill set each day and, by your second or third year, really understand the nuances of, for example, the GST tax--to use an example provided above. The practice offers more security than others, and once you "get it", your worth as a lateral is huge (I regularly receive headhunter calls, despite the current state of the legal profession).

Best of luck with your decisions, 2Ls and 3Ls.

T&E really isn't particularly well suited to big firm practice - other than a service provided to extremely wealthy general clients of the firm to help ensure loyalty. Other posters have mentioned this. It's really hard to gin up billables in T&E practice. You can't bill client development or keeping up on the law (both critical in T&E) and if your client doesn't need work done at the moment, you can't just write something up and bill five hours.

Wealthy families also tend to be very sophisticated (or hyper greedy) families and they are going to read and whack bills that they feel are unnecessary. So it's not surprising that hitting a billable target is unreliable. The flipside of lower hours is, of course, lower hours. Hence why it's not particularly profitable for big firms and somewhat pleasant at smaller ones.

This is the most relationship-driven law you can possibly do. You're going to be with a family for years/decades; you're not just the guy who got called because something bad happened. Although you probably will be when Biff Jr. steals a car. People don't tend to switch T&E lawyers unless something major happens that breaks the relationship.

The class issue...eh. Probably depends more on where you are practicing. You're going to be culturally compatable with your clients because they have to trust you, and 90% of what you do is interchangable with any competent lawyer in the field. If you aren't comfortable around rich people...yeah, not the right practice area for you. The reason this depends on the part of the country is you have different types of rich people in different areas. You have serious Old Money in old cities, you have Midwest small businessmen, you have California entertainment & start-up people. These people don't think the same way, don't have the same politics and generally don't even like each other. And anyone Gen X and below probably hates golf.

I'm a junior associate in the T&E department of a mid/large firm in a major market (160 base salary). My department is relatievly big when compared to other T&E departments and we handle a wide variety of estates.

I feel very fortunate that I was able to start in the T&E group. I took as many tax classes as I could in law school and expressed an interest during my summer, and I just got lucky. It was a good fit for me personality wise. Like others have said, there is a huge learning curve and it is ridiculously hard to bill a lot of hours (I'm on pace for 1850 with a "goal" of 1950), but all things considered, I really have no complaints.

I imagine that I will eventually move to a smaller firm and/or work part time after I have kids. While the hours are less / more consistent than other practice areas, it is still a big firm and not necessarily conducive to a great family life.

A lot of good, constructive advice here.. Keep it coming. www.GoodSharks.com

This has been an interesting thread. I hadn't thought once about doing T&E prior to reading it. It seems like it would be a good match for my personality - I get along with all walks of life, and do well with first impressions. However, I am not connected. I have family that is very connected in D.C., but would rather stay in the south.

Should I even consider applying to these T&E boutiques? Would it be an unjustified, up-hill battle? I am absolutely not against working hard and building a name for myself. I am, however, against trying to get into something that, on balance, is not justified given the risk of starting my career without the proper connectivity.

Umm yeahh.... can I get that Obama LSAT score and undergrad GPA...ummm thanks....

It is not an easy field to get into based on the economics of the practice. Very few associates are needed to support trusts & estates partners. I work in a boutique with twelve partners and two associates.

It is not an easy field to get into based on the economics of the practice. Very few associates are needed to support trusts & estates partners. I work in a boutique with twelve partners and two associates.

It is not an easy field to get into based on the economics of the practice. Very few associates are needed to support trusts & estates partners. I work in a boutique with twelve partners and two associates.

One of the best parts about practicing in this field is the opportunity to take on unique and refreshing pro bono cases.

Post #90 was spot-on about the other odds and ends.

93 - you could consider trying to start in DC and then move south after a few years. As one of the commenters said above, laterals are in demand really no matter what the economy is like.

I'm a recent grad of a lower tier law school (evening program) in the SE. I have and continue to work in a non-legal setting, until the economy improves or I am able to transition full time to law practice.

I am doing contract associate work with a T&E practitioner here in my city. He has made a niche for himself in the LGBT area (even though he is straight- I am too). My first love, law wise, is family law, and it seemed to me that T&E and Family Law often go hand in hand or share similar sub-issues, so I am hoping that if the relationship with this attorney (professional, not personal) develops further over the next year or so, I can transition to working full time with him and can then bring in more of the family law issues I love over time.

In the meanwhile, T&E works with my schedule, since I am not able to be in court or make many phone calls during my normal 8-5 job.

I am essentially having to go solo to do this, so I have to plan my own flat rate fees for simple will packages and RLT's. Hourly rates for handling probate seems pretty standard in the local market-- senior attorneys make approx $250-$300/hr; Jr. Associates (like me) bill at approx $125-$175/hr. Pretty similar to rates in family law practices I have seen.

In the small, boutique firm area, networking is essential. You are going to have to get involved in several business networking groups (perhaps get connected with various investment firms as well). So plan for that.

Advice for 2-3L's (and 3-4LE's in evening programs whereever): If Big Law is not your dream (it was never mine), plan to get creative NOW. Start networking in the local bar associations and if you can, various business groups too. Also, recognize that Boutique firms don't even want to SEE a resume until you have your license. Some of my classmates who worked as paralegals during law school (we were in the evening program, as mentioned above), had offers for associate positions with their firms upon passing the Bar. Otherwise, most of us are staying where we are currently at (employment wise) and waiting this recession out or are getting creative. I didn't even start really looking for a new job until I found out I had passed the Bar (though I put feelers out there with contacts). The T&E job I have now is strictly part time, mostly probate (though it has the potential to develop into more). I clerked for the attorney during law school for a few months, maintained a good relationship with the attorney throughout the last 2 years, and was able to approach him about this kind of relationship once I was out of law school.

Hope this was helpful. I can't get too much into the specifics of practicing T&E law, since I am a newbie to all of it, and am just settin' down to look over the technical aspects of it, now. :-)

T&E is horrible. Here's why:

1. You think corporate disputes can get nasty? They are NOTHING to intra-family disputes. I have had clients screaming at each other, wielding knives at each other, hiding money from each other, setting up off-shore trusts for their prostitutes - you get to see the absolute worst in people, almost 100% of the time. Parents don't trust one child but they do trust the other, and when the kids find out (because on is allowed to have his money but the other one has to have an independent trustee, then the kids hate each other). The examples go on and on...

2. The ho-hum T&E issues are: (i) boring to deal with, and (ii) loss-leaders.

3. The complex T&E issues are: (i) incredibly complicated and interesting, and (ii) only a handful of clients in the world are willing to pay you enough to really figure it all out. This isn't GE - these people freak out over every penny on their invoices. I had a family from Liechtenstein with about $5B in assets that argued with me over an invoice that included ten hours of research for a tax issue that even Deloitte's national office couldn't figure out. The tax liability was for about $100M. Ten hours of research cost them about $9,000. Jerks!

4. T&E lawyers are voyeurs.

So, if you want a high-stress, low income field, go and enjoy T&E!

#62 here, again. For anyone interested in learning how the numbers work for estate and gift taxes and income taxation of estates and trusts, there's a lot of very reasonably priced continuing professional education online. It's directed toward CPAs, enrolled agents, and people with private credentials like CFPs.

I have been a T&E attorney in a major market (both boutique and mid-size firms) for 20 years. It is a hard area to break into and even harder to build a following. No substantial/older client trusts someone young, so you are unlikely to have many clients for quite some time. This is not because of technical skill (though there is a huge learning curve) but because of life experience. The client is telling you about family problems and is not going to "rely on" the advice of someone the age of his children.
Clients also tend to be very fee sensitive, and it is extremely hard to bill big hours. There is lots of time just reading to keep up in the area.

It is not a well compensated area of the law.

On the plus side, if you think you will work until you are 80, this is the field for you. Your clients will age with you, and when those wills "mature" you are golden. You actually will have headhunters placing you (with your "mature" business) when you are a senior citizen.
Nevertheless, I don't think it is a great area to practice in and I would not recommend going into it.

101 - Ouch. That's depressing. Thanks for the candor.

36 - Completely agree. I also graduated from what ATL snobs would consider a TTT (top 60 school).

When it comes to estate planning, in this field more than any other field, most clients want to see their lawyer is experienced and knows what he or she is talking about right off the bat. I have been practicing for a few years in this field for a small firm, and clients initially would be thrown off by my youngish appearance when I first started. I suppose if I was elderly, I too would want my estate planning attorney to be closer to my age. Luckily my bosses took me under their wings early and I received a quick and thorough education in estate planning. Most of our clients are small business owners, most of whom rose from blue collar backgrounds to own highly profittable businesses. I never have had a client care about what law school I attended; in fact, I believe most of them would have been turned off if I did graduate from an elite school. Unless you are dealing with a Vanderbilt/Kennedy/Rockefeller, I think most well-off clients do not care where their attorney went to school, so long as they can relate with their attorney and trust their judgment. This field really is all about earning your client's trust more than anything.

105,

What region of the country are you in?

I have worked in T&E for 19 years now. I love it. It is entirely people/personality driven. Once you learn the law (which is complex, but finite), it's pretty easy-but if you get an LL.M. and broaden your practice some to include other "tax" areas, you are much more marketable. I find my LL.M. makes me a better lawyer when addressing business succession and related areas. The legal side can be dry. The fun is dealing with the clients and their nutty families. It can be very entertaining.

The key (to me, any way) is this. People talk about how horrible it is that people fight over estates and inheritances, treat their kids badly, etc., etc. Look, nobody ever gave me a big inheritance-I had to make everything I have. So when kids get upset over their parents' inheritance, it is easy for me to detach, sit back, and watch the fireworks. If you are a student of human behavior at all, it's a great way to make a living. But it's not for everyone.

It's contrasted with divorce work, where innocent people (i.e., kids) can get hurt.

As for money, I work in a medium sized southern city, and make $250,000-300,000/yr. That's pretty good money.

I'm wondering how necessary an LLM in tax is for E+T. Most E+T lawyers I've come across have gotten an LLM, but I have also heard that you don't need one and can just consult an accountant for the nitty gritty tax aspects of T+E. Is that true?

I've been practicing for 9 years without an LLM. Having been at two large firms (300+) and now at a boutique, the trend is definitely towards LLMs especially in the large firms. In my experience, it's not necessary though except from a marketing perspective.

In fact, a year after I started, an LLM joined our group straight out of NYU. He and I were on par in terms of tax knowledge. Mine was just on the job. Oh, and I got paid for learning.

24,

Is it true that Wachtell's T&E attorneys have 9-to-5 hours, yet still get paid Wachtell salaries, i.e., $330K or higher a year?... I heard a rumor to that effect... wasn't sure if it was BS or not