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Another Federal Government Opportunity: The Presidential Management Fellows Program

Presidential Management Fellows Program PMF Program.gifAs we mentioned yesterday, some jobs with the federal government — an excellent refuge from the economic storm — are disappearing even before the application period closes. So we’ll tell you about this next opportunity even before the application period opens (which is tomorrow).

A tipster tells us:

I’m a longtime reader of ATL and a big follower of all the useful info and entertaining gossip posted on the site.

I notice you recently posted about the DOJ Honors program. I was hoping you might consider writing about the Presidential Management Fellows (PMF) program.

[T]he PMF program is a hidden, relatively-unexploited gem for graduating law students, and it has not received proper attention by most of the law schools’ offices of career services. While the DOJ Honors program and the Bristow Fellowship got pretty good publicity at my school’s career services office, nobody knew much about the PMF program. I heard about it through a non-law-school source, and had to go to my university’s public policy school for more information….

[T]he PMF program is one of the absolute best avenues for graduating 3Ls that are: (a) interesting in working for the government; (b) interested in public service; (c) willing to accept a government salary with average tuition reimbursement opportunities; and/or (d) voluntarily or involuntarily not planning to work for biglaw after graduation. Fellows can apply for a position from a wide range of government agencies, including the DOJ, State Department, Department of Defense, USAID, Health and Human Services, Homeland Security, Department of Education, Federal Elections Commission, etc. These positions are generally not available for public application because of stringent government hiring restrictions (agency preference, civil service preference, veteran’s preference, etc.)

Sound promising? Read more, after the jump.

Our correspondent, “Happy PMF Attorney,” provided extensive detail about the program. Here it is.

Advantages of the Program

There are several major perks to the PMF program:

1) The work can be unbelievably fascinating, exciting, and intellectually stimulating.
2) You can get a job in a government agency that might not be available to non-PMF applicants.
3) While the program itself is only two years long, you are virtually guaranteed a permanent position after you graduate from the PMF program.
4) PMFs are entitled to do rotations, which are basically secondments to other positions. These positions can be in other offices in your same agency, a different agency, or sometimes even outside the federal government (I know PMFs that have worked at the World Bank and the Maryland Department of Education). Often these rotations provide for a job offer from the other office as well.
5) You are guaranteed rapid advancement through the GS (general schedule) pay scale.
6) There is significantly less emphasis on grades, and more on experiences and extracurriculars (I guess this could be a plus or minus, actually).
7) Can we say job security? Like, definitely.

Disadvantages of the Program

Here are the negatives:

1) You might start at a slightly lower salary than entry-level attorney positions. Most starting attorneys in the fed gov start at the GS-11 grade. PMFs usually start either at GS-9 or GS-11. But no PMF stays at GS-9 for more than a year before promotion.
2) Out of the many many PMF jobs out there, there are few actual attorney positions available. I think some PMF attorney positions are available in the Federal Elections Commission, the Social Security Administration, Homeland Security, and the State Department’s Bureau of Consular Affairs. That being said, many PMF attorneys hired in non-attorney positions take rotations in legal jobs, which can often lead to a permanent offer in a legal position later on. I know DOJ loves hiring PMFs on rotation to serve as Special Assistant US Attorneys in both the Civil and Criminal Divisions because it’s essentially free labor for them (PMF salaries are paid by their home office even while on rotation). These attorney positions generally require that you be admitted to the bar in at least one US jurisdiction.
3) Most (though not all) PMF positions are based in DC, which can be rough if you are determined to be somewhere else.

The Application Process

Here’s how the process works. Students apply in the fall of their 3L year. The application, which will be posted at https://www.pmf.opm.gov, is only up for about a month, and will go up [tomorrow, i.e., Thursday, October 1]. If you do not apply during this brief window, you miss your chance (you cannot apply after graduating).

After filling out a brief application, students need to have their law school fax in a form stating that the school agrees to “nominate” them for the program. Historically, this can be a very competitive vetting process at public policy schools, but not usually at law schools outside of DC.

If the 3L gets nominated, they must then take a written exam at one of five or six locations scattered around the US. You can find out more about the test on the PMF website, but it’s significantly easier than the LSAT. Passers of the test become PMF Finalists, and are invited to a job fair in March or April, where most Finalists secure a position for the fall. All this information can be found on the PMF website (but perhaps not from your law school’s career services office).

[This year] the window for applications is only two weeks long (even shorter than last year!), and the deadline for schools nominating students is only just over two weeks after that. [T]he application process is generally fairly short relative to the DOJ Honors program, SEC entry-level program, and most of the other government online applications (I don’t think I took more than an hour max filling it out).

Applicants need to remember, though, to bring their nominating letter to the administrator at their law school responsible for the program (at mine it was the Dean of Public Service), stay on top of making sure they are considered, and that, if nominated, the letter is faxed to the government office by October 31. The Office of Personnel Management is pretty strict on this, so applicants should do appropriate due diligence in making sure their applications are complete in time.

Compensation

[We asked Happy PMF Attorney for more details about the GS pay scale.]

The GS salary is supplemented based on locality. Since most PMF positions are in DC, I’ll give you the salaries for PMFs posted in DC. PMFs in New York, San Francisco, or Chicago might be paid a little bit more, while any rare positions in places like Anchorage or Des Moines are paid a bit less.

PMFs usually start either as a GS-9 or a GS-11. In 2009, GS-9 ranges from $50,408 to $65,531. Where it falls in that range depends on the generosity of the hiring office. Sometimes a friendly reminder of what biglaw is paying first-year associates can help on this front. Second-year PMFs are at a minimum at GS-11, which ranges from $60,989 to $79,280. Most PMFs convert to GS-12 after their second year (ranging from $73,100 to $95,026). Many PMFs can be non-competitively promoted up to GS-13 ($86,927 to $113,007) after their third year. From there, successful post-PMF careers may continue up to GS-15 ($120,830 to $153,200) or beyond to the Senior Executive Service (SES). Almost all federal government jobs are capped at $200,000 (most Cabinet members make less than this), but few lawyers join the federal government for the bucks. More specifics on the salary scales can be found at http://www.opm.gov/oca/09tables/index.asp.

Keep in mind also that many government agencies have programs in place to modestly assist in repaying student loans.

***************************
We thank Happy PMF Attorney for this wealth of information. To any of you who decide to apply to the program, good luck!

Presidential Management Fellows Program [Office of Personnel Management]

Comments

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1 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:41 PM

in the butt

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2 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:42 PM

To reiterate:


I go to a T14 school, I did very little work in lawschool (i.e., i have a couple C's, including Contracts), I have an offer at a V100 firm in Chicago for market rate, I have ZERO loans because my grandma paid them off for me, I am single w/o kids and have no mortgage, and I am sitting in front of my big-ass flatscreen tv about ready to smoke a joint and skip my corporate tax class ....AGAIN.

Here is my tv:

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/tv-video/televisions/plasma-tv/PN50B450B1DXZA/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail

Fuck all you small-dick latham little bitches.

Lawschool = Good Life

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3 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:42 PM

Save autoadmit

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4 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:45 PM

Great more competition for the pmf program. There are only a few hundred pmf slots open each year and many of them go to people with a masters in public policy

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5 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:46 PM

i wish ATL would stop posting about opportunities that people who have wanted to do public service since they entered law school really care about.

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6 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:47 PM

Congratulations #2. It seems like you have a good life. So why are you on this site?

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7 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:47 PM

4,

We'll change that stat. PMF, you have mail.

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8 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:49 PM

6 -- why am i on this site? did you SEE my tv?

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9 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:50 PM

Thanks asshole. Way to make it harder for people who actually want to serve. There is a reason programs like this are little known- the people who actually want them put the leg work into finding out about them. Elie you suck.

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10 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:50 PM

#2, you're life is not that great. Your TV is only 720 resolution, which is old by now. The best TVs have at least 1080 resolution or higher.

Nice try though, really.

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11 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:54 PM

Thank god I go to UVA.

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12 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:56 PM

50" is weak. 720 is extremely weak. I would hate to be you number 2. Do you even bother buying bluerays since you don't get to see 1080? I would just get old fashioned dvds if I were you. Might as well save the money. It must really suck.

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13 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:56 PM

yikes, this was a shitty thing to post

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14 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:56 PM

Hey 2, 2006 called, it wants its cutting edge tv technology back. At least link to a nice TV, not some middle-market student special.

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15 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:57 PM

First!

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16 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:02 PM

hey 14, you're a fucking idiot. did you even LOOK at my tv? it's plasma. the contrast is like 50,000 to 1. they didn't even HAVE that in 2006.

hey 12, you're also a fucking idiot. obviously i have a blu ray. it's loading time is like 6 seconds.

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17 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:02 PM

It's funny that 2 ruined his whole gag because he doesn't know how to spot a decent TV. I actually did have a similar TV in law school. However, I wasn't wealthy at all. TV's like that were very affordable even a few years ago. HAHA!

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18 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:07 PM

Don't get too pumped, the program has about a 10% acceptance rate.

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19 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:09 PM

The real problem with the PMF program, as 4 said, is that MPPs and PhDs get all of the attention. Federal hiring managers, in general, don't really get that JDs are useful more than simply for practicing law. They're just dumb civil servants who see "law school" on a resume and immediately think that because their positions aren't law-related, JD applicants aren't qualified.

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20 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:12 PM

Chicago pays more? DC is far more expensive than Chicago.

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21 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:12 PM

Its funny how you can always tell whether Elie or Lat wrote a post. What a huge difference. Nice post Lat and the tipster did a great job researching and laying out specs. Too bad everybody and their mother is going to apply now.

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22 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:13 PM

We need to bomb Hanoi back to the stoneage!

-DOJ Secure

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23 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:13 PM

"Passers of the test become PMF Finalists, and are invited to a job fair in March or April, where most Finalists secure a position for the fall."

Completely untrue. More like "a minority of Finalists."

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24 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:17 PM

Hiring . . . ANY hiring . . . is a good thing. If this government program hires 10 lawyers, that's 10 fewer people looking for jobs. That's 10 possible openings at biglaw firms around the country. That's 10 fewer people that need to be laid off!

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25 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:18 PM

23,

Yep, would suck after flying out across country.

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26 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:19 PM

I went from UVA to PMF - worked out great, especially since I was looking for an escape valve from actually having to practice law. I had tons of interviews and ended up with many offers, more than one above GS-9.

Also, 2, that TV sucks. If its not 1080p, then why bother?

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27 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:20 PM

I went from UVA to PMF - worked out great, especially since I was looking for an escape valve from actually having to practice law. I had tons of interviews and ended up with many offers, more than one above GS-9.

More info at https://www.pmf.opm.gov/ including list of finalists and appointments.

Also, 2, that TV sucks. If its not 1080p, then why bother?

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28 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:21 PM

2 is just seeking some human interaction online since he can't get it in real life

let's not oblige him

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29 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:21 PM

FYI to all you 3L's seeking attorney positions with the Fed. Govt. Almost every agency has a Legal Honors Program similar to the DOJ's. So, if you want to work for DOE, HUD, DOI, etc., go to their websites and download the application for the LHP.

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30 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:26 PM

28 is just jealous and/or a latham.

here is HIS tv...

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-CZ27V51-27-TV/dp/B00000J3RA/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=tv&qid=1254335143&sr=1-3

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31 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:27 PM

My mind is aglow with whirling, transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention.

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32 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:27 PM

My mind is aglow with whirling, transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention.

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33 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:28 PM

Getting my weekly stipend of $1500 in a slow, bureaucratic office, while working my way up from a "G-9" to a "G-13"!

When I'm a "G-13" this job will totally rock!

Yippee!

DOJ Secure

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34 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:28 PM

All those that post comments about keeping this program secret are afraid on the competition. In this first place you applicants evidently failed to find gainful employment and are now peering into the abyss.

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35 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:30 PM

Do you all think a biglaw staff attorney has a shot at one of these fellowships?

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36 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:30 PM

QUESTION: If I get this job, will it give me standing to challenge our undocumented worker of a president on his missing birth certificate issue?

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37 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:36 PM

36, his birth certificate is NOT missing. They've found tha notarized Kenyan copy. Get your facts straight, man.

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38 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:36 PM

Most federal managers are reluctant to hire an attorney for a non-attorney slot, thinking the person will transfer to the General Counsel's office or some other prestige legal spot at the first opportunity. Might be different if you have some credential other than just the JD.

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39 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:39 PM

I bought a 62 inch, 1080p Sony with my bonus last year. Then I bought a Blueray player and a PS3 in March after not getting fired.

-LATHAM SECURE

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40 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:39 PM

http://www.antiobamasticker.com/2009/08/undocumented-sticker.html

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41 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:39 PM

34,

In a perfect world the most qualified and interested applicant will get the job anyway. However, when agencies have to sift through thousands of applicants, candidates who have no interest or background in policy making will get through while some more qualified candidates will fall through the cracks. The more applications the more likely that agencies hiring through the PMF will be overwhelmed and their selection criteria will be even more arbitrary (gov't hiring is already very arbitrary).

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42 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:44 PM

Look, if an undocumented Muslim socialist radical (who most likely never even really graduated from law school) can be elected president of the United States, then surely a hiring manager at some federal agency can hire an underqualified lawyer.

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43 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:47 PM

thanks for posting the one thing i was applying to that most people didn't know about. thanks.

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44 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:47 PM

In the good old days 4-5 years ago the applicaiton process was far more onerous, including day long interviews where you were pitted against your competitors.

Lawyers actually tend to do very, very well in that environment, it is a shame they changed it. just as an aside I was a PMF, and after 2 years in the program and one in my agency I was already a GS-14. If you are halfway competent and show up to work every day you will advance frighteningly quickly (if you are willing to branch out a little and not have a traditional legal job). You will never make a ton of money working for the Feds, but you will:

a. rarely work weekends and rarely work after 5 pm
b. have off on all the Federal Holidays and be able to take vacations where you are not constantly checking your blackberry.
c. still make a 6 figure salary.
d. you will usually qualify for 5-10k a year in tuition assistance, especialy if your boss likes you.

It really isn't a bad deal, but if you are brilliant and type A (I am neither) Biglaw is a better choice.

-Underachieving T14 graduate.

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45 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:54 PM

2-

720p!!!! Wow you are poor. WHO BRAGS ABOUT 720p!?!?!?

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46 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:54 PM

BREAKING!!!!

Brady Quinn is being benched for Derek Anderson. Lat, thoughts?

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47 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:00 PM

If you look at the actual statistics of applications vs finalists, applications have gone way up in recent years while the number of finalists has remained fixed between 7 and 800 per year. That trend will probably continue, so each hiring agency probably won't have a higher volume to sort through than before.

Remember, you apply, your school nominates, and you take an assessment. Unless you make the finalist cutoff, based on that assessment, no agency ever sees your materials. It's only OPM that does, and their cutoff is completely objective, based on the test. Grades don't matter, school doesn't matter.

Once you become a finalist, you can try to network for an appointment. Then your grades and school might matter, they might not. Your prior experience might matter (hint: it often does) or it might not.

I'm a JD and a PMF. I had prior, non legal, experience, but I was hired specifically because the program at my agency recognizes that JDs interested in broad, non-legal work often have better analytic skills than other disciplines. And while they'd like me to stay on after my PMF appointment is up, they see that as their pitch to me, and will not hold it against me if I take an attorney position somewhere else in the government (or private practice). In fact, they're completely supportive of my rotations going external and to other legal departments.

The PMF is a wonderful program, but you need to bring something to the table if you're a JD and want a spot. A desire to be employed is not a marketable skill. A committment to public service is, however, something that gets looked at.

For those that are pissed that this got posted, take a little solace in the fact that many schools have probably closed their internal deadline to apply for the (competitive) nomination process. And even if not, you still have a shot against them on the assessment, which you will no doubt take more seriously than they will. Once you're on the floor at the job fair, your genuine desire to join the Federal service needs to shine through.

48 Posted by Goodsharksdotcom | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:02 PM

@44: "If you are halfway competent and show up to work every day you will advance frighteningly quickly."

That's reassuring. God bless the U.S. and A.!

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49 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:11 PM

39 - PS3's play bluerays. Why would you get a separate blueray player? What the hell is wrong with you people? Does no one on this site have even basic knowledge of modern technology?

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50 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:17 PM

the way to get legal employment in the govt is NOT through this program, but through each dept's version of the DOJ's honor program, usually through their general counsel's office. This program is mostly for master's and phd students.

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51 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:28 PM

I graduated from a top 50 school in 2008 and am currently a PMF. The program doesn't accept persons to be lawyers, specifically. However, I have been able to work as a lawyer during my rotations/detail assignments. Just an FYI on what you'd be getting into.

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52 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:30 PM

Dear ATL,

Thanks for publicizing another public-interest opportunity that now, due to the flush of applicants inspired by your intrepid reporting, I have no chance of scoring.

Goddamn you.

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53 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:51 PM

People people people. On a 50" set, the human eye can only resolve the extra resolution offered by a 1080p set over a 720p set if you have perfect vision and sit less than 7 feet from the TV. Contrast (real contrast, not the pumped up fake numbers), is the real determining factor for the best HD. Really, understand some science before commenting on 1080p totally pwning 720p. Spend your money instead on a 720p Pioneer.

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54 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:57 PM

Sup motherf**ks,

I am an unemployed PMF finalist (living with mom is sweet - the bitches are FLOCKING) and should just alert people before they spend the travel money to stomp social workers on the PMF exam: There are almost NO attorney positions available through PMF. If you're bent on doing attorney work, this isn't really worth the trouble.

- 4L over the line, sweet jesus

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55 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:03 PM

Can current clerks apply for PMF positions?

I'm going to hit post comment a few times to make sure someone answers.

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56 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:03 PM

Can current clerks apply for PMF positions?

I'm going to hit post comment a few times to make sure someone answers.

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57 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:04 PM

54: That is correct. The PMF program is for those who want to work in the Federal Government, not for someone who will take any legal job that comes around.

The government is a surprisingly mobile place to work if you show some potential, work hard, and do good work. That means you'll be able to find your way into an attorney position in your area of interest based on the people you impress through your work as a PMF. It never hurts to have actual subject matter expertise as a lawyer, and the PMF program lets you move around and learn that.

It's Federal first, attorney second. If the Fed Govt isn't your target employer, I'd suggest moving on, as PMF is not for you.

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58 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:05 PM

54: That is correct. The PMF program is for those who want to work in the Federal Government, not for someone who will take any legal job that comes around.

The government is a surprisingly mobile place to work if you show some potential, work hard, and do good work. That means you'll be able to find your way into an attorney position in your area of interest based on the people you impress through your work as a PMF. It never hurts to have actual subject matter expertise as a lawyer, and the PMF program lets you move around and learn that.

It's Federal first, attorney second. If the Fed Govt isn't your target employer, I'd suggest moving on, as PMF is not for you.

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59 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:10 PM

Why do so many people want to work for the government? Is the economy really that bad?

It's depressing.

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60 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:13 PM

I got my JD in '08 and found an excellent legal job through the PMF program. My 6 month rotation was even better! The test is the "hardest" part of the application process because it knocks out about 80% of the applicants. Oh...and to echo some other comments on this board...commitment to public service is important. If your resume just lists law firm and private sector experience, it's obvious you're just looking for healthcare and a pay check. Federal agecnies really like to see those applicants who have sacrificed and worked public interest externships/clerkships.

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61 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:14 PM

Something about the tipster is off... Why would you want ATL to publicize the opportunity you're looking at when you already seem to know about it? Were you just looking for salary information? That's weak. Or are you a PMF alum (or recruiter) trying to score some publicity? Nice job, then. I looked at the PMF program when I was finishing law school, but ended up not doing it. This post makes me wonder if I should have kept my soul and pursued it. Oh well...

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62 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:16 PM

55/56: Nope. PMF eligibility is only during your last year of school. If it makes you feel any better, those of us that did the PMF were not eligible for most Honors Attorney programs. As a JLC, you still are.

59: It comes down to time vs money. I always wanted to go Fed because the balance was better. Given the hours for most 1st years in biglaw and the salary I negotiated with my PMF agency, I definitely make more per hour than my biglaw colleagues. Having the free time in the evenings and weekends is irreplaceable to me.

If there was a way to go into private practice and make 100-120k but only work 50-55 hrs a week, no weekends, and vacation meaning no email, I'd probably jump on it. But 145-160k for 65-80 hours of my week without any sort of breaks isn't something I'm willing to do right now.

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63 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:18 PM

I'm a recent law school graduate and current PMF finalist. I turned down one PMF position and probably won't participate in the program. Much of what has been said about the program is true. The rotation assignments are phenomenal (DOJ, Departmental General Counsel offices, etc.) and the pay sucks. Most of the hiring comes immediately after the PMF Job Fair in the Spring and those who accept usually start that following Summer or Fall.

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64 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:24 PM

PMF....um....who cares?

It's not important just because it has the word "presidential" in it.

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65 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:26 PM

Working for the gov't is the equivalency of attempting to control your neighbor. You are contributing to the growth of an increasingly illegitimate force that operates outside the constitution. In other words, you become part of the problem; you become the threat to liberty.

Only if you plan to tear it down from the inside should you agree to enter that abyss.

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66 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:28 PM

for people who have their heart set on NYC biglaw, the PMF program probably is not the right way to while away the years til hiring picks up. and just like at firms, getting a PMF position is not certain until you have an offer letter in your hand. but if you can get it, it's good.

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67 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:38 PM

This is a great program, but many others have pointed out, it's not really geared toward JDs who want to practice law. It's also true that the assessment test knocks out a huge percentage of applicants.

But - I advise any veteran with an active duty honorable/general discharge to apply for the program. They add a few points (5 or 10) to your test score, and that is often enough to get you selected as a finalist.

The other downside to this program: the lack of quality agencies recruiting through PMF. When I was a finalist (2007), I decided not to proceed because all the agencies were third tier types - ie, SSA, GSA, etc. The State Dept, CFTC, SEC, etc. did not recruit there, though this may have recently changed.

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68 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:50 PM

I want to be 44.

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69 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:51 PM

67- The State Dep't hires PMFs. Go here if you want to view the agencies who've hired this year... https://www.pmf.opm.gov/FinalistSortByAgency.aspx

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70 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:10 PM

I Echo # 5
"i wish ATL would stop posting about opportunities that people who have wanted to do public service since they entered law school really care about."

Screw you ATL

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71 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:53 PM

let me set all you people talking about tvs straight:

you either
(A) have a pioneer
or
(B) you are a pussy

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72 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:10 PM

67: In recent years, State and DOD have recruited significantly larger numbers. From my own and other PMFs' experience, those are top tier agencies.

They also happen to be the most competitive when seeking appointment, but they also open the most doors for rotations. Recently, I've seen a few rotations posted that seek "licensed attorneys" and "DOD professionals" and the latter type were not DOD sub-agencies.

Yeah, I don't know that PMF is going to make my resume if I want to go into private practice right after the fellowship. However, I do believe that becoming a government attorney is easier to do as PMF.

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73 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:57 PM

applying to this is a waste of time if you don't have significant policy experience and demonstrated interest in working for the government.

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74 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:18 PM

54 here again.

73 - you don't need to have significant policy experience. but you need to be able to articulate why you want to work for the govt. every interview i had through PMF (~20) was "So... you have a JD... what makes you think you can apply the lawz lol". I wanted to punch so many of those douches who got a master's in public policy in the face. Instead I was all like "lolz i knoowwwww" --> callback.

A lap dance is so much better when the stipper is crying.

-4L over the line, sweet jesus

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75 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:30 PM

Before anyone gets a hard-on for being a PMFer. They are seen as second class citizens in the federal government- the equivalent of an administrative assistant/receptionist. But hey! It's not forever!!

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76 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:49 PM

How many freakin HR people from the feds are on this board?

There's no way in hell any real law students or or any real lawyers would speak so highly of "PMF"...

ATL needs to begin a screening process.....real lawyers and law students only

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77 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:29 PM

PMF is pretty much the only legitimate opportunity for T50 International Law concentrators to put that J.D. to use. Good luck to all.

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78 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, October 1, 2009 12:00 AM

strongly second 5 and 9

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79 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, October 1, 2009 7:44 AM

68-

That's nice of you, but maybe I was a bit to pollyanish. there are some downsides, and while my job is related to the legal field and I am using the infromation/skills I learned in law school, I am really doing policy work. If you want to be a lwyer proper this is not the job for you. Also the government is the government, you need to have almost endless patience to deal with the red tape and bureaucracy. But if you are a go-with-the flow kind of person you can always find ways to slip through the ceckas and get things done.

One point I would like to mention, if you are interested in Technology Transfer work almost every big contract/grant federal agency is looking for folks to staff those positions (Energy, HHS, Defense, etc...). They aren't necessarily looking for patent attorney's (most patent attorney's can get a beetter job elsewhere and they can't afford them) but legal experience is a big plus. If you say you are interested in Tech Transfer and call the agency PMF liasons directly you may have more success.

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80 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, October 1, 2009 11:57 AM

"PMF" whatever that is, despite the official looking logo, is a little too close to "PMS" for my taste...which is appropriate because that's the reaction you get whenever you ask a government worker to do something.

No thanks for me!

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81 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, October 1, 2009 11:59 AM

Attorneys
Federal agencies may hire finalists through the PMF Program to fill positions involving policy and legislative program development. It is extremely unlikely that an agency will have finalists working on trial and litigation matters during their fellowship. Finalists seeking appointments as an attorney in the Federal Government may wish to look for such opportunities outside of the PMF Program through USAJOBS at www.USAJOBS.gov. Most attorney positions are typically outside the PMF Program's hiring authority, and if appointed as an attorney, the finalist may no longer be considered a PMF and will be withdrawn from the Program. There are a number of occupations for which a law degree and/or legal experience are qualifying and valuable, but not necessarily required. Examples include, but are not limited to:

Paralegal Specialist;
Hearings and Appeals Specialist;
Contract Specialist;
Labor Relations Specialist; and
Estate Tax Examiner.

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82 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, October 1, 2009 1:21 PM

LOL! So I can get my law degree to become a "paralegal specialist" with the feds!

Is this guy serious?

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83 Posted by guest | Permalink Friday, October 2, 2009 3:54 PM

I'm a PMF, and i would say it's a decent program but choose your job carefully. if you did fine on the LSAT you will definitely pass the PMF test, which is really random, very easy, and really unclear what it could possibly test for. a big problem is agencies want to hire you, but often don't have a lot of work for you, or will be impressed if you can format word documents, so your work might be extremely entry level and boring. rotations are a good opportunity, and you might be able to turn them into jobs - also you can network, meet a lot of other pmfs. but, it matters a lot where you are, who your manager is, and how well prepared the agency is for you. also the pay for the first year is really bad.

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84 Posted by guest | Permalink Friday, October 2, 2009 7:16 PM

My law school had three finalists, and they were all thrilled to be a part of the program. However, 2 of those people still seem to be unemployed (per their facebook status posts). Is it possible to be a finalist and not be hired?

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85 Posted by guest | Permalink Monday, October 5, 2009 4:15 PM

response to # 84 - simply passing the objective assessment (which measures 27 leadership competencies and identifies you as a future leader) only makes you a finalist and does not guarantee that any federal agency has to hire you. however, if an agency decides to hire the PMF finalist, the process is much easier since it is considered "excepted service"

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86 Posted by lowerpainback | Permalink Wednesday, October 28, 2009 5:14 AM

A good post, very helpful information.
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