Should 2Ls Accept All of Their Offers to The Detriment of Fellow Students
On Friday, we mentioned that Harvard Law School took on Sullivan & Cromwell over how long to firm would hold open offers for summer associates. It was a good show by HLS.
But the question of what 2Ls should do if they get multiple summer associate offers remains open. Earlier, we suggested that instead of just holding open an offer while they mull it over, we suggested that 2Ls affirmatively accept all of the offers they receive. Later — once the 2Ls have had time to make a considered and wise decision based on relevant financial information about the law firms — 2Ls can call up their firms and revoke the agreement to summer with a particular firm. Hey what is good for the goose is good for the gander, right?
Apparently, bloggers out at U.C. Berkeley disagree. From the Nuts & Boalts blog:
Harvard’s Dean impressed me, and ATL’s advice disgusts me. Boalties: don’t hoard offers. If you have more than one opportunity at your door, it’s time to start making decisions, because the earlier you decline an offer the more likely it will redound to one of your peers.
Whoa. Above the Law-2008 just called, and they want their open thread back.
Long term readers will remember that last year I strenuously argued that 2Ls should accept their offers as soon as possible. I argued that quick acceptance would benefit their fellow classmates. Some of you might remember that I wrote this:
If you are a 2L sitting on multiple offers, could you please — for the love of God — accept one of them already, so the spots you don’t want can be filled by other candidates? At this point, in this market, it is just common courtesy.
That post was written on October 17th, 2008.
Ask anybody from the class of 2010 if they’ve learned anything since October 17th, 2008. Over the past year, we’ve learned that firms will rescind offers to summer associates. We’ve learned that firms will defer (or revoke) offers to incoming associates. We’ve learned that firms will bring in an entire class of summers, with little intention of making offers at the end of the summer.
In short, in the past year, we’ve learned.
And something tells me that this year’s 2Ls, the class of 2011, have learned too. Nuts & Boalts seems to acknowledge this:
I know that advice can be hard to follow. Law students hate risk, and they hate making decisions, just like law firms. That’s why Sullivan tried to clamp down on the timeline. But just because you can get away with something doesn’t mean you need to; the temptation to follow ATL’s advice is strong, but like most temptation it’s worth resisting. To hold six offers open, to attend fifteen callbacks, or to delay your decisions until the last moment NALP allows is to flirt with greed and self-indulgence. Not only that, but it will make you feel bad — it eats at you to have these decisions hanging over your head, and I promise you that when you do pull the trigger and put OCIP completely behind you, you will feel a thousand times lighter.
Also eating at the souls of 2Ls, the fear of not eating.
Law students hate making decisions right now because seemingly everyday some new law firm releases some crucial piece of new information. How many people would have summered at Morgan Lewis & Bockius if they new that the firm was going to come in with an offer rate below 30%? How many no offered 3Ls wish they had waited until after the (post) Valentine’s Day Massacre before they committed to summering at a particular firm? Information is power, and right now 2Ls are at a distinct disadvantage.
In a different world, it would be great for students to look out for fellow colleagues. Unfortunately, we are in the second half of Lord of the Flies, and the law firms don’t really care who has the conch. Firms are (surprise) running a business. Law students are trying to look out for their own careers.
There’s no professional courtesy in foxholes.
“You Just Kinda’ Wasted My Precious Time, but Don’t Think Twice, It’s Alright” [Nuts & Boalts]
Earlier: Harvard Law School to the Rescue
Accept Your Offers: All of Them
Accept Your Offers: Stop Screwin’ Around You Kids Screw Around Too Much
(215) 
Comments
Comments hidden for your protection. Show them anyway!
Are there ass lobsters in foxholes?
first f*ckers
First, I believe.
I accepted 14 offers last year.
- CLS 2L Stud
Crud.
- 3
Its not professional courtesy, its honesty and integrity. You cannot accept an offer of employment that you presently intend to renege on. This is a good way to get fired by both firms.
Don't hoard offers. Hoarding of offers is why I didn't get into Cravath or S&C. It's not cool, don't do it.
"If you have more than one opportunity at your door, it’s time to start making decisions, because the earlier you decline an offer the more likely it will redound to one of your peers."
I can't stress this enough - you shouldn't give a flying fuck about your "peers" (they aren't really peers anyway if you have multiple offers and they have none). In good times or bad, never make a decision based on trying to help a peer. You went to law school for you, not for Jimmy the Dipstick who once asked the Con Law professor if the Supreme Court can strike down constitutional amendments as unconstitutional.
I say accept and hold - I turned down two good offers last year that I wish I had back now. Another student that got the summer position I turned down now has a job, while I got a no-offer from a firm that took on way too many summers.
Nice Post Elie! loved the Lord of the Flies reference
I can't believe people are considering accepting more than one offer. It will come back to bite you during character and fitness.
10 = Elie
-Bolt-Ons!!
10 = Elie
-Bolt-Ons!!
How about those of us without any f-ing offers to accept at all?
It's not a great idea, but it would never come back to bite you.
Law firms aren't going to collude on this with one another. Hello, antitrust problems.
Firms renege. There's no way Morgan Lewis, Mayer Brown, Bryan Cave, Kattan or any other firm with a 50% offer rate didn't know they were going to renege on half their kids before they started.
There is no way all the deferring firms didn't know they'd be pushing their starts back 4 months to a year and a half, taking 70-280k out of your pocket.
They knew and still accepted you as a hedge against the economy coming back and them needing bodies. Now its your turn to accept them as a hedge against the economy not coming back and them not needing bodies.
Boaltie here.
The guy that made that post is an idiot and douchebag. He thinks people at Boalt like him, but really few people do.
some fun news from the firm side: we aren't making new offers based on turn-downs. Nothing you can do now is going to help the guy we dinged a month ago.
Yes. In this economy you have to look out for yourself.
Those who've gotten the Latham or Alston Bird treatment are wishing they'd accepted multiple offers right now.
Tell the firms you don't immediately start with that you're doing a clerkship. Then if your firm pulls a Latham or Alston Bird, you can always start with your choice of the other firms the next year.
Reminder: Fish & Richardson is a sinking ship.
Luke 10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Don't know how it works elsewhere, but at my T14 law school, we had an honor code and if word got back to career services or the dean of students that someone was doing stuff like this - even back when the economy was actually good - it would have definitely caused problems for the students doing it.
In the end, it's really just a jerky, classless move, and I wouldn't do it and would hope that my classmates wouldn't do it, but also know that law students are some of the biggest jerks out there and would not put it past many of them.
I don't know how often this would come back to bite you. It's not like firms check these things with each other. The world of legal recruiting is pretty small though, even in NYC. If it does get out though, you'll probably be fired and never work in biglaw again.
Latham hired a shit ton of 2008 grads during 3L oci just in case the economy stayed strong. What's it tanked, it was GTFO, too bad for you. Here's a piddly 45k for agreeing not to sue or disparage us.
Latham hired a shit ton of 2008 grads during 3L oci just in case the economy stayed strong. Once it tanked, it was GTFO, too bad for you. Here's a piddly 45k for agreeing not to sue or disparage us.
6 is right. It's not about looking out for your peers, but what it might do to your career. I doubt law firms talk with each other like law schools do (you know what can happen when you pull out of ED for law schools?), but word can get around, and if you ever want to lateral/find a new job after being Lathamed, you could find yourself blackballed.
Also, Elie is an arse.
"[The firms knew they probably couldn't take everyone] and still accepted you as a hedge against the economy coming back and them needing bodies. Now its your turn to accept them as a hedge against the economy not coming back and them not needing bodies."
Well put.
Will your "peers" pay your rent and student loan bills? NO. Anyone who would make a decision based on the welfare of their peers is an idealistic fool. If you have numerous offers, accept each one of them and screw over every firm you don't want to work for just like they have screwed over so many of your other peers receiving unemployment right now...
Greed and self-indulgence? A little dramatic, no?
22
If you don't accept multiple offers you'll probably get lathamed and never work in biglaw again.
Hedge your bets people. These biglaw partners are some greedy ass lathams who'd gang rape you and your entire family for an extra buck.
People who are supposed to be working for Fish, Clifford Chance, Latham, and Proskauer right now would advise you to accept all your offers.
Lying to the firms you don't immediately start with is easy.
"Hello [Latham, Proskauer, Clifford Chance, any unsafe firm], I'll be clerking for Judge Vandelay this year, but I look forward to starting with you at the end of my clerkship."
How very Darwinian! http://www.goodsharks.com
16,
You're a tough guy. Making a personal attack behind the cloak of internet anonymity.
The NALP rules either mean something or they don't.
In addition to the 45 day rule, there is also either a NALP rule or guideline that counsels against rescinding offers. I believe it came up way back around the time when Cadwalader rescinded offers in Charlotte.
So long as firms are blatantly violating these NALP rules, students should too.
roll on you bears
I would actually hold offers if you were in a situation where you had an offer in Atlanta, New York, Seattle, Chicago and DC. Take one from each place, keep your mouth fucking shut, and just watch the news until March or so. Drop one firm every few weeks. Summer at the best place you'd get an offer.
This does require you to be very quiet, but that's how I would approach things.
Latham has the firm one of the most respecting. Their clients are all of the most revenue in the world. I very hope working there some time.
Why does 37 speak like Yoda?
37, I very hope it works out for you with Latham. Good luck!
"I can't believe people are considering accepting more than one offer. It will come back to bite you during character and fitness."
Absolutely not. Btw, I am a 2000 grad who was fortunate to land a sweet gig (because the market was much much better -- I was lucky). I would recommend you accept several offers (not 10, but several). Why not? Cover yourself. And when you finalize decide and refuse the others, the positions will go to the firm's second choice students anyways. It will be like you are giving them a Christmas present.
37 sounds brain damaged. Are you the bar failing partner's son?
When it comes time to make the final decision, you're not really renegging on offers you've already accepted, you're just "deferring indefinitely" the decision of what year you'll be joining their summer program.
Would be sweet justice to see this in action, but I can't figure out how accepting multiple offers wouldn't be discovered. And it would definitely end the biglaw legal career (which makes it amazingly bad advice on the part of ATL).
In what way, exactly, does such a strategy help a student with multiple offers? Do 2Ls considering such a move (or that crud pig who wrote the article) think that a treasure trove of financial information about firms is going to appear between now and when the summer starts?
Maybe some information about some firms will leak out, but I suspect picking a "good firm" for next summer is going to be another game of roulette.
"Would be sweet justice to see this in action, but I can't figure out how accepting multiple offers wouldn't be discovered. And it would definitely end the biglaw legal career (which makes it amazingly bad advice on the part of ATL). "
Wrong, wrong, wrong. How would it be discovered? It also would NOT end your legal career. The firm you chose will be happy. The firm's you don't won't even remember you if you decide to change firm's in the future. Firm's want good lawyers, period. If you are good, a firm will take you even if they remember that you passed over them in the past (which they won't). Do you think partner's really care about summers? They can barely remember new associates' names.
"Would be sweet justice to see this in action, but I can't figure out how accepting multiple offers wouldn't be discovered. And it would definitely end the biglaw legal career (which makes it amazingly bad advice on the part of ATL). "
Wrong, wrong, wrong. How would it be discovered? It also would NOT end your legal career. The firm you chose will be happy. The firms you don't won't even remember you if you decide to change firms in the future. Firms want good lawyers, period. If you are good, a firm will take you even if they remember that you passed over them in the past (which they won't). Do you think partner's really care about summers? They can barely remember new associates' names.
43 is spot on. Elie is likely to be sued by a bunch of dumbass 2Ls who follow his retarded advice.
STOP STOP STOP
Everyone re-read 17's post, I think it contains a bit of color that everyone is missing.
Assume that a firm has a total of 30 first and second years in any given office at any given time. Assume will have 2000 future billable hours for this class of 2011 associate. If this 2011 associate doesn't show up, what makes you think that her offer will go to the next in line? Most likely the 2000 potential hours will be distributed between 1/3 or those 30 associates -- probably to the 1/3 that are only on pace to bill 1700 hours.
In other words, if I were in this position, I would a: accept multiple offers; and b. continue searching for government positions.
I disagree with 46. Let's say you have a offers from three firms (a, b, and c). I know, this is laughable these days but just go with it. You accept your offer from firm A, only to find out on Nov 1st that Firm A only gave offers to 30% of summers, while firms B and C gave offers to 80% of summers. Wouldn't you want your choice back? You don't think firms are withholding their poor offer stats and information regarding a new round of layoffs until after they think they have already secured their summers for next year?
47 here -- too late for me to be writing this crap apparently, but you get my drift.
47 here -- too late for me to be writing this crap apparently, but you get my drift.
"I can't believe people are considering accepting more than one offer. It will come back to bite you during character and fitness."
Spoken like a law student who has never gone through the sham character "investigation" portion of bar admittance. Nobody is going to get caught for this, most bar associations will just run a cursory search to see if you've molested any children lately and if you haven't you're in.
After all, this is the practice of law. It's like in the movie Casino, we're supposed to be out here stealin'.
"I can't believe people are considering accepting more than one offer. It will come back to bite you during character and fitness."
You forgot to also mention that it will go on your permanent record!
What was the final tally for Fish & Richardson?
These people who are urging law students to accept offers "for the benefit of other students" are using some pretty flawed logic. The candidates who got offers got them because they deserved them; or because they met certain criteria that the firm was looking for. Just because a person declines an offer to a firm doesnt mean that his/her summer spot is going to automatically open up for another, less qualified candidate.
It is up to young attorneys to fix the legal industry that has been hijacked by greed and unprofessionalism. Accept your offers.
Accept your offer. Now.
It is up to young attorneys to fix the legal industry that has been hijacked by greed and unprofessionalism. Accept your offers.
STFU. Really. You have no sense of reality.
Those of us who survive this debacle in BigLaw are going to be some pretty ruthless bastards.
Nice-a
What's wrong with going to multiple call-backs?
Also, so are these firms who get shafted by 2Ls on their offers going to have to come crawling back to the kids they said "nice credentials but not good enough?"
K&E. It's for me.
59, no, they won't. But if things pick up and they're under-staffed, they will have to hire some 3Ls or laterals.
don't let this be you
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Lathamed
I accepted and then reneged on an offer this past summer. The firm called up my new employer and the new employer was not pleased. Didn't cost me the job but apparently they asked if they "wanted me back" and would have canned my ass if it was requested. I think the strategy isn't worth it when firms will likely honor a brief consideration period (though I wouldn't try the NALP 45 days).
It isn't clear to me how this actually injures anybody?
Sure, others may have to wait longer to get their jobs, but ultimately the firms decide how many new hires they require for their business needs and that number will be hired. Whether you accept multiple offers or not, those jobs will be filled.
I just reneged in my pants.
Number 63 is complete bullshit.
There is NO WAY a firm calls another firm to whine that a student rejected them in favor of another firm. It would never happen. Take it from someone who has been at a big firm for 8+ years (and who is involved in the recruiting process). I imagine that #63 was posted by a student without a job who just wants others to accept quickly.
63 is not making it up. I'm certain that it would look really fishy if you went back on an acceptance, and the hiring partner would ask and/or somehow figure out where you were going to summer instead. These firms do talk and share information about people. It's a very small world and everybody knows someone at another firm. If you reneg an acceptance that's going to show up on the radar.
What is to be gained by accepting more than one offer? Several months of following the news about these firms before making a decision. You have to make your decision before the summer starts because you cannot work two places at once. But what are you going to learn between now and then? Nothing. You already know the offer rate of last year, except for a few firms. If you get an offer from one of these firms (extremely unlikely that Fish is going to offer for next summer before making permanent offers from last year's class), ask them point blank what their offer rate was. Other than that, what will you learn? Maybe firms will continue laying off associates and you would like to know about that. But what does it mean to you? If a firm lays off a couple dozen associates this year, does that mean that they are less or more likely to offer you full-time employment at the end of the summer? I could see it either way. I could see firms holding on to who they have because they believe they can weather the storm just fine as they are(think Jones Day). What if things don't turn around at all this year? Maybe Jones Day summer 2010 will be Mayer Brown summer 2009 simply because they didn't lay people off. Maybe Fish will be in a position to give 100% offers next summer because they laid so many people off/no-offered so many this year. There really is no way of telling.
But what is to be lost by accepting more than one offer? Well, you're basically risking everything on the assumption that firms will not talk to one another. That's an assumption I won't make, let alone a risk I won't take.
Accepting more than one offer is not at all comparable to no-offering/cold-offering 50% of your summer, or offering money to defer for a year. People that think they are the same are the people that give law students a reputation for having a sense of entitlement. As offer to work the summer does not entitle you a job after graduation. It never has, and it probably never will. Accepting a summer position, however, does entitle the firm to stop looking for another summer associate and start making plans for your participation in their program.
68 may be you will have applying for Latham. They has very biggest respectful and never wrongful to them.
Accepting two offers then splitting might be a solution.
just remember even if an employer doesn't formally call up another employer about you, this doesn't mean they don't know what you're doing/did. lawyers infamously chatter...a lot...
66-
Actually in the context of 3L hiring (I know, I know), it's entirely routine for your new firm to call your old firm to verify that you worked there and received an offer. They usually alert you beforehand. The example isn't applicable to 2L hiring, but does show that the firms do "talk to each other" about job candidates on a limited basis. Of course too much talking = cartel.
-Not 63
66-
Actually in the context of 3L hiring (I know, I know), it's entirely routine for your new firm to call your old firm to verify that you worked there and received an offer. They usually alert you beforehand. The example isn't applicable to 2L hiring, but does show that the firms do "talk to each other" about job candidates on a limited basis. Of course too much talking = cartel.
-Not 63
You guys should bomb NALP back to the stoneage!
-DOJ Secure
Nuts & Boalts is a blog ran by douches. They do not represent the rest of the school.
Go Bears.
I feel very sorry for those of you who are so worried about offending a firm through the recruiting process. I can appreciate all of the nervous energy and unknown about the recruiting process for law school students. You are all filled with wonderful notions like the honor code and ethics. That's great. However, as a senior associate at a large Chicago firm, I should let you know that any actions you take to pursue what you believe is "right" and/or "moral" (while noble), will not be appreciated, much less recognized, by the "higher ups" at the firm. At best, the summer recruiting director (i.e. non attorney who plans the summer orientation program and who has no say in whether you receive an offer), might think you are "nice". Yeah. There is no loyalty at big firms. Everything is about the bottom line. Everything is about whether you can perform. Period. Law students think all they need to do is be nice and work hard. Wrong. You need to be really good. Attitude and effort alone don't cut it. If you are a great attorney but kind of a jerk, they can deal with it. If you are a great attorney and a nice guy, bonus. If you are a so-so attorney but a really nice civil guy, you are out the door. These firms have more important things to worry about than investigating (or even caring) whether a 2L is considering multiple offers. In fact, most partner would probably appreciate the fact that you had the foresight and initiative to consider what is best for you. If you are unable to look out for yourself, how the heck will a partner ever trust you with the firm's clients. I definitely am not saying to do anything underhanded. You can succeed by following the rules. Just don't blindly follow your career services preconceived notions of what is right -- especially when they are almost always for the benefits of the firm.
I accepted an offer at all 100 V 100 firms. I screwed almost half of my class in the process. In the old days, they hid books in the library, but with lexis and westlaw, that doesnt work anymore. In terms of screwing my competitors, er, I mean classmates, I have to say the new way is far more rewarding.
First of all, a firm that no-offered all/half its class last year isn't necessarily a firm that will do the same next summer. Indeed, most firms are slashing the size of their summer classes to prevent a repeat of that very scenario.
Second, one could make a compelling case that the firms that are more likely to no-offer next year's class are those that made 100% offers to this year's class.
In other words, there is a serious empirical question here - and one that will almost certainly not be answered before this year's 2L class starts working next summer. All of which is to say that this accepting of multiple offers isn't necessarily going to actually help.
Third, as someone with multiple offers (all V-50), I can tell you that every firm from whom I have an offer has shared with me: size of last year's summer class, % offer rates for last year's summer class, planned size of next year's summer class, planned offer rate for next year's summer class, start date for 09 class, planned start date for 10 class, planned start date for 11 class, as well as how many attorneys they have laid off (and the class make-up of those laid off attorneys), any lateral hires made, and PPP over the last 5 years.
I would argue that diligently collecting and comparing all of that information will give you a better insight into where to accept than the inane plan of accepting multiple offers and hoping to get more information from ATL as the year unfolds.
Most importantly, accepting multiple offers is dishonest - and that really just ought to end the issue.
So, do your due diligence, accept an offer, and move on. Not because it's good for your peers or anyone else, but because it is the appropriate way to conduct yourself. That's what I am going to do, and if it doesn't work out, then I have confidence that the qualities that got me 8 offers in this market will get me another one during next year's 3L hiring.
78, " I have confidence that the qualities that got me 8 offers in this market will get me another one during next year's 3L hiring." So wrong!
I'm not saying that Elie is wrong, but it seems like he is just trying to destroy the industry as we know it.
79 - I may indeed be wrong, but I'd rather go into 3L hiring with my integrity intact than try to game the system (with no guarantees that it will work) and sacrifice my ethics in the process. And please spare me the snide comments that ethics will get you nowhere, biglaw doesn't value integrity, blah blah blah - I don't need the cynicism or the purported "real world" advice, I'm doing just fine on my own, thanks. -78
If you lie and get caught, there will be repercussions.
"Earlier, we suggested that instead of just holding open an offer while they mull it over, we suggested that 2Ls affirmatively accept all of the offers they receive."
Elie: I suggested that if you're going to post at 6:23 p.m., you stick around long enough to fix your typos when readers point them out.
Accept all of the offers you get, I decided too early last year and got screwed. Now I'm a 3L with no-offer and zero job prospects, the firm I turned down gave offers to almost all of their summers. Had I waited a few more weeks I would have seen it coming.
81, I didn't mean you should game the system. Actually I think nobody will take Elie's advice seriously, including Elie himself. Elie is just doing an eye-ball attracting business, as everybody can see it. What I really wanted to point out is no matter how many offers you got in your 2L year, 3L OCI leads you to nowhere in this economy.
And what happens when you accept offers with Firm A and Firm B, and a member of Firm A's recruiting staff laterals to Firm B? Not that there's that much lateral-ing in this economy, but still. That's just one scenario where you would get caught. Sure, you probably would get away with it, but the risk is well in excess of any possible reward. There are better ways to hedge your bets.
Nothing at all wrong with going on 15 call backs if you don't yet have an offer in hand from a firm you'd rather summer at.
There is something very wrong with accepting multiple offers of employment. That kind of behavior is dishonest as well as unscrupulous and it WILL catch up with the students. I would not be surprised--at all--if a firm revoked the offer of a summer if/when the firm found out the summer played this game.
But even if it doesn't catch up with the summer: it hurts your fellow students/peers. And those aren't connections/friendships you want to squander.
Latham gave near 100% offers and Fall 2010 start dates to the class of 2010.
- 3L Latham Secure
How is it unethical to accept an offer that you may turn down? The basis of at will employment is that you are not bound to stay at a job, and an employer is not bound to keep you there. This logic extends to job offers. Even if you accept an offer, you are not bound to keep it and the employer is not bound to ever let you work there.
You have to look out for yourself in the business world. In this economy, accept your offers.
Here are a bunch key reasons why you should NOT accept all of your offers:
(1) Law firms DO talk and compare notes, especially in small, incestuous markets such as Boston (Ropes and Wilmer talk all of the time) and Dallas. And it's not just the hiring partners who do this. Recruiters from different firms very often know each other for various reasons (socially, used to work together, are members of the local recruiter networking group, etc.) and casually chat about how "we're doing this event this summer" or "we landed this stellar candidate that everyone wanted" or "OMG, there's this hot law review editor from harvard who we just signed." If you're a strong enough candidate to get multiple offers in this economy, firms may actually brag to each other about you and you may be identifiable even if not by name. And if a firm finds out you're pulling this shit, you will never work in BigLaw again.
(2) because of Elie's retardedness in posting this suggestion, every firm will be watching out for turds who pull this shit. If the firms didn't compare notes before, they will do so now, most likely through regional legal recruiting administrators associations. And there aren't serious antitrust concerns here, especially given that there is an ethics justification for doing this.
3) Many law firms keep in close touch with the Career Services offices at core schools from which they recruit. They often even report #s and names of summer associates to the CS offices.
4) Every single firm will require you to authorize them to request a copy of your updated law school transcript from your school's registrar's office. The letter will often read "John Smith is working as a summer associate at our firm this summer." Because of Elie's decision to publicize this suggestion, law school registrars will be on the look out for multiple transcript requests from firms. And they will not assume you are splitting between 2 firms unless you are in Texas.
5) EVERY LARGE LAW FIRM...I REPEAT...EVERY LARGE LAW FIRM has screwed its associates in some way and most have screwed their incoming and summer associates in some way. Even Davis Polk, Wachtell, and every other asshat firm that gunners salivate over.
KARMA IS A BITCH PEOPLE
78 hit the nail on the head. Accepting multiple offers gets you no new information. The only valuable information will come at the end of your second summer. Accepting multiple offers is also blatantly dishonest. Only compulsive liars lie when it serves no potential benefit.
76 misses the point. Elie is definitely advising 2Ls to do something underhanded by violating the rules because they cannot get ahead otherwise.
-68
Why are law students still considering going with these firms at all? You do of course realize most of these firms are giving large numbers of this year's summers no-offers and deferring those with offers until 2012, don't you? Do you think the economy is magically going to recover and the firm will let you start with this year's class? Give me a break.
Do yourself a favor and summer with smaller firms and/or the government. One inflated summer associate salary is not worth gambling your future on.
90 is dead on. Except about Wachtell. If they screwed over anyone, in any way, it would be the biggest news since the recession started. If it's true please let Lat know ASAP.
I am accepting the fact that I am screwed and that should have gone to med school.
http://www.greenwichtime.com/ci_13325760?source=most_emailed
Doctor shortage impacting Fairfield County
It's really nice to see a healthy majority of commenters on here not buying into the shady multiple-offer advice. I have no idea what ethics, honesty or dignity buy you nowadays, probably nothing, but ATL's advice is the kind of thing that very douchey yet not very intelligent people - who have no class to boot - would do. Not a club I'd want to join.
I was laid off as a first year along with 32 other first years from my office.
Except for a few well connected people, we are largely fucked.
Avoid this misery at all costs.
"And if a firm finds out you're pulling this shit, you will never work in BigLaw again."
Perhaps the single dumbest comment on this board that was undoubtedly written by a law student (i.e. someone who has no idea how the recruiting process actually works). A stellar lawyer will get hired no matter what --- think of it as the Terrell Owens effect. He gets hired by teams because he can play and they deal with the fact that he is an ass. The same works at big firms. If you are good enough, there is a spot for you. This is similar to the University of Chicago effect. Most of these students have zero social skills, but firms hire them and don't care if they stay in their office with the door closed all day as long as they do good work product.
88
Latham gave 100% offers to the class of 2008 and started them on time.
You know the rest.
Oh 96, well intentioned but naive. First off, there is nothing ethically wrong with keeping your options open. Second, the type of people who listen to the ATL advice are actually the intelligent ones because they will be the ones with the jobs. Third, I hope your righteous sense of integrity, based on your misguided sense of what is ethical, is a comfort while you stand in the unemployment line. Some of you need to wake up to reality and stop staring at the unicorns in your fantasy land. You do realize that actual practice is not the discussion of theories. A lot of you need to toughen up.
my concern with nuts and boalts<my concern with above the law<my concern about not getting offers<my concern with ever being an attorney<my concern with jahvid best getting sufficient media coverage to win the heisman<my concern with cal going to the rose bowl.
try to relax, people. ATL is the homeland security dept.'s terror threat-level warning of the legal world.
The modern lawyer then is a specialist, an expert, and must be prepared to dig down into problems, the legal and practical roots of which are often a matted and intertwined mass of technical details.
I am of course exaggerating, and am confessedly writing from the viewpoint of the big city legal specialist. There arc literally tens of thousands of lawyers whose work today is no more specialized and no more difficult than it would have been fifty years ago. But I think I am right as to the trend, and the trend is something which is of distinct importance to those who are wondering whether the law is the career for them.
What are the implications? It seems to me that there are at least two.
The first is that, in general, no man is likely to be a successful lawyer today unless he has a first class brain. You are all used to being told, by parents and wandering alumni, that a cum laude or Phi Beta Kappa key is more important in later life than an "E". I do not pretend to know whether such a generalization is true in its entirety: but I do know that your law school scholastic ranking (and it's fairly likely to follow what you've done in school and college) will have a definite dollars and cents effect on your chances of getting a good job and of getting well paid for it. Personality may help, but it is brains that count. Marks are not an unfailing index of brains, but unless you get pretty good marks don't try to be a lawyer. You may succeed, but the chances are against you.
The second implication is that the mind of the present day lawyer must be rugged enough to work at top speed for twelve or more hours a day and tough enough to enjoy battling with stubborn facts and complicated legal problems. Don't try to be a lawyer unless you like hard work and unless you are spurred on - not turned aside - by the challenge of difficulty.
.
If you are going to be a lawyer, choose hard courses in school and college. Concentrate on political science, economics, subjects that are hard and that relate to the world that you're going to practice law in. Don't neglect Latin, mathematics, subjects that are hard and are good for your mind because they are hard. Go to a good law school and work your head off. Remember that your success is going to depend largely on your brain – exercise it, give it hard jobs to do and make it work.
I am afraid that I have drawn rather a forbidding picture of the law as a career, and probably an exaggerated one. We all know that not every successful lawyer is a mental giant who rejoices in hair cloth shirts and revels in working eighteen hours a day on problems so difficult and technical that no one else can understand them, But it is a hard profession, and there's no getting away from it.
The rewards? There are a good many. From the purely material point of view, legal ability commands a good price in its own field. In addition first class lawyers are constantly being asked to step across the border line (sometimes indistinct, anyway) between law and business or finance into positions of high responsibility and worldly remuneration. A complicated world will always pay tribute to a man who understands complexities.
The law is one of the natural pathways to public service. In spite of the encroachment of business upon the law (or, if you prefer, the encroachment of law upon business), the lawyer still remains a professional man, a servant of the system of justice. Proverbially he can use the law as a stepping stone into politics or governmental service, and private practice itself often stimulates the high exaltation that comes with a fight for a just principle or a just cause.
The law provides its own intellectual reward. If you have that quality Thorstein Veblen called the instinct of workmanship, the inner urge for a hard job well done, the law will satisfy all the cravings of your spirit and will delight your soul.
I have never understood why the law personified by so essentially illegal an individual as a mistress. But if she is a mistress, and a jealous one, she is also endlessly challenging and fascinating and, on the whole, not a bad person to go through life with.
Francis Plimpton - 1933
maybe firms haven't compared notes on this in the past, but they're not idiots. If it becomes clear this is the game, they are going to crack it. There's a way around anti- trust detection -- it's called a phone. Or, better yet, a drink. If this whole topic weren't a topic of open debate, maybe you could pull it off. But now? Forget it. Ironically, Ellie killed this angle the second he mentioned it..... But truth is the whole strategy is dated anyway. The great Associate Bubble of 2009 has already popped and adjustments have been made. Firms are going to be so conservative with their numbers, if you are lucky enough to get an offer, i would put the chance of having it rescinded or deferred at just shy of nill. The whole idea is really a great solution to a problem that has already paased away, so it's all downside (getting busted) with very little up. Skip it.
Where is it written that it is unethical to accept multiple offers? There are now at least 96 comments and counting, most of which are strongly against the idea. But not a single mention of any canon or source.
At-will employment cuts both ways. Non-binding offers cut both ways. A firm's ethical commitment to you is as solid, deep, and meaningful as its bottom line. Let that sink in. You'll meet people at the firm you like, and who like you; you might even become friends with some of them. But employment decisions ultimately must be business decisions, period. The people with whom you work will view you as more than a cog; the firm as a whole will not.
The only solid argument in the comments above is the argument that taking the multi-acceptance approach is actually not in one's interests. That might be true, and it's worth considering. What's the risk to one's reputation, weighed against the benefit of additional information discounted by the likelihood of you learning such information in the time during which you will hold multiple offers?
But ethical considerations towards those who make decisions about you with a purely economic eye? Are you guys also going to consider it "cheating" if you shop around for other employers behind your current employer's back?
Here's one firm whose offer who shouldn't accept: MAYER BROWN. Based on everything that's already been written about this firm, you'd be a fool to go there. More than five rounds of layoffs, salary freezes, insecure partners who can't generate business, axing bonuses, deferring start dates, no-offering summers, the Refco mess, partners leaving -- I mean, seriously, isn't this enough information to make an informed decision?
Whoa, can a firm go after a 2L using a Section 90 claim?!
103 has a good point about this not being a problem for most people.
And remarkable illusion concerning the efficiency of law firms in reacting and adjusting to new information. The "associate offer efficient market hypothesis" is very 2006.
100: 96 here. Yes, my sense of right v. wrong (and self-protection, since I really do think this is silly advice that's bound to get you in hot water) is serving me just fine. This isn't really my dilemma, as I'm several years out of law school, but I was interested in the comments after reading the post since it is so obviously not the way to go if you really do want to succeed and not burn bridges over the long run. I tend to have a broader view of ethics than the black & white "should I report my client if he's about to commit a crime" rules. I'm more of a dictionary.com definition of ethical kind of girl: "pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct."
I <3 nuts and boalts.
-Boaltie
106
Back in the day I read many hypos where the law student had their offer revoked after making the journey to the Metroplolis in the great state of Columbia, but I don't remember one where the student revoked their acceptance of the offer from the firm (probably because it seemed so unlikely).
What do you think the major points and arguements would be? Having seen the legal market implode the past 18 months, I think the contract would be unconscionable and therefore the student (def) would win the Res 90 claim of the firm.
104:
E. Candidates should honor their employment commitments.
Candidates should, upon acceptance of an offer of employment, notify their office of career services and notify all employers who consider them to be active candidates that they have accepted a position.
http://www.nalp.org/fulltextofnalpprinciplesandstandards#Part_III._Prin_Candidates
anyone who thinks that firms talk to each other about summer associates and summer associates with offers is a fucking 1L, 2L or retard. FIRMS DONT CALL EACH OTHER TO TALK ABOUT YOU! you are the bottom of the totem pole. You FEEL important because teh paycheck so sooo HUGE but to them it's the lowest paying JD in the place. YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT. Nobody will find out, and if they do, at least 50% of them may actually respect you more (assuming they find out after the fact, and you chose them).
Elie is right. If 2Ls do this, it will quickly teach the firms a lesson to knock this shit off with deferrals and start playing straight with people. at the same time, these 2Ls will increase the odds of employment next summer by at leats 50%. seriously, the meek will not inherit the earth. STEP UP MOFOs.
Aside, the guy who said that C&F is basically a crim background check is right, except for one or two states.
104 - it is neither your definition of what is ethical that matters nor that of the average lawyer or law student...it is your law school and firms' definition of what constitutes ethical.
Law students who want to work at a big firm should be very loath to do anything to piss them off right now.
Irrespective of whether or not YOU think something is unethical, if a person with the ability to revoke your offer or otherwise sanction you thinks your behavior is less than kosher, you are screwed.
you're an idiot, elie
112 - no one is saying partners are going to give a shit and call each other about this, but staff involved in recriuting may if they think a bunch of people are going to back out and screw up the hiring targets. Or the schools will start policing it themselves.
113 is right. regardless of whether you deem the economic situation dire enough for you to do something dishonest, you should think about the consequences of being caught.
because they do it to us doesn't mean we can do it back with repercussions. we are not on equal footing.
113 is right. regardless of whether you deem the economic situation dire enough for you to do something dishonest, you should think about the consequences of being caught.
because they do it to us doesn't mean we can do it back without repercussions. we are not on equal footing.
78 - can you share some of this information about vault-50 firms (ie - percentage of offers they gave this summer)? they haven't been sharing this info with me or my classmates
Please understand this: accepting multiple offers isn't going to help you. You won't know if you are no-offered until after the summer, not before it (and firms are very unlikely to cancel/reduce its summer program at this point, it's already in the budget). Any information you gather while having accepted multiple offers could cut both ways.
For example, if Firm A conducts layoffs of 20 associates next March, but Firm B does not, who is more likely to no offer summer associates? The answer: no one knows. Firm A could be laying off the associates to keep open its ability to make offers to its summers. Firm B could be not laying off associates but instead planning to no-offer its summer class. Alternatively, Firm A could be screwed and will be making layoffs and no-offering summers, while Firm B could be financially sound. The only people likely to know are the firms themselves, and they probably aren't talking.
So, since you have to make a decision on what offer to actually keep before the summer starts, this accepting multiple offers plan won't actually get you what you want (a guarantee of employment). That's because there is no such thing as a guarantee of employment...
119
What if you manage to participate in two summer programs, accept both perm offers, then tell the firm you don't immediately start with that you're clerking for Judge Vandelay? That way, you have an insurance policy against a Lathaming or some Alston & Bird shit.
This is stupid. If you accept more than one offer, you are a jackass. End of story.
121
I'd rather be a jackass than get Lathamed or Alstoned.
My firm explicitly says in the offer letter that the employment is "at will" and if you decide not to join the firm for some reason after you accept your offer, you need to reimburse the firm the bar stipend, bla, bla. I think the firm is implying that it can also rescind the offer for some reason because the employment is "at will."
Not sure if they say this in previous years.
I'm sick of this. If you are going to hate on Latham, then you need to reevaluate what other firms have done to the class of 2010 and maybe spew some fire in those directions. OR, get a life and stop this already.
Latham over hired the class of 2008. Get over it. It is called a business decision. They gave six months severance (80k - ridiculous), had a smaller class of 2010 summer class (note: most firms did not do this and consequently are deferring the class of 2010 [skadden, cravath] or no offered [i.e. kirkland, quinn]), and gave those summers offers and are starting them on time. Latham has moved on, maybe you should too.
I don't know who to believe anymore! Every other post is from a hiring partner or someone on a recruiting committee, and they're all giving opposing counsel!
Luckily, I already have an offer from a peer firm where my father is a partner, so this is all academic to me. Only plebians seem to have the difficulties being described in this post.
Post 205 is funny because it is so obviously law firm slanted. Of course a law firm will advise you to not hold multiple offers because it hurts THEM.
Post 206 is incorrect in that you will only get "caught" if you are an extremely sought after "prize" recruit. If you are some top 15% student from Northwestern, Duke, etc., you will likely be ok accepting multiple offers.
Accepting multiple offers is very shady. You'll do what you're going to do. But it's shady.
I couldn't do it because I can't imagine what to say on the call when I disabuse Firm B that I'm actually going to go there. "Hi, this is Joe. I know I have an offer to join you this summer, but ...[what?]..." "I'd really rather not?" "A better offer came along?" In this job market, I don't see how you make that phone call without ringing alarm bells on the other end of the phone. And then all it takes is a curious law firm recruiter to start making some phone calls--to your school, to his/her friends in other firms--and you could wind up in a very, very bad spot. Not any way I'd want to start my legal career.
Do what you will.
Haven't read any comments...but, yes, accept all your offers. You should have learned by this point that there is one person looking out for your future...that is YOU. Not the f*cking law school, not the law firm, and god knows not career services or NALP. Who is going to be stuck with the student loans when you accept and offer from a firm that later defers you indefinitely??? Will anyone be offering to repay your loans at that point????
209 - your apparent inability to obfuscate in your own interest is going to make you a poor lawyer. If you can't come up with anything better than the truth, I can't wait to make plea bargains with you.
Kissing off a firm is no harder than lying to your college professor about the week of class you missed for extended spring break. Make some shit up, like, "My mother died and my dad had a stroke, I'm dropping out of law school to care for him. Thank you for your offer, but I simply have no choice but to refuse." Then go off to another firm. They're not going to keep track of you and look you up in two years to see if you're practicing somewhere else.
179: Here's how you hurt your peers: Firms interview students over a two-month period. Offers are made over time, on a rolling basis. The firms have a target number that they'd like to hire, and come up with a working assumption of how many offers they should make over the course of the season in order to reach that target, based in part on their expectations regarding the percentages of students with offers will accept. If the acceptance rate from the people who interview early in the process is higher than anticipated, that can affect the number of people interviewing later on who receive offers. If the firm's number of acceptances in the early part of the recruiting season is artificially inflated, that will result in people interviewing later on not getting offers because the firm believes that its acceptance rate is higher than it actually is. Firms aren't going to go back in the spring and make offers to people they rejected in September simply because they didn't end up with as many people as they thought they had.
Wow, there sure seem to be a lot of former hiring partners on the board today. And oddly, though they all seem to have plenty of time to write long posts on ATL, they all claim that firms are "too busy" to check up on students.
You are all missing the point anyway. It doesn't matter what has been done IN THE PAST. These are new times. With discussions like these on ATL and rumors circling around schools that people are accepting multiple offers, firms and career offices might decide they need to fight the problem. And if they do, you're fucked . . think of how easy it is to find out where a student ended up. So don't listen to all the idiots on here who claim they were on the hiring committee . . it wouldn't matter even if it was true. It could easily be a different game now and you're risking a lot for VERY little benefit.
HofstraMagna, I thought you received no offers via OCI.
Next, why not also free law students from the shackles of NALP and ABA?
Neither ABA nor NALP is in the business of procuring for us admission to desired law schools or job offers from desired employers. Nor do law schools, for that matter.
Yet, they all tell us, with threat of punishment, what to do and what not to do while we are in law school. Let students work out directly with prospective counter-parties any and all rules of engagement.
Cease all unearned, unjustified governance over us, unless you really are prepared to take care of us in every detail from law school admissions to bar admissions to permanent employment.