Summer Associates Happier At Firms That Don’t Do Layoffs
Yesterday, American Lawyer released its 2009 summer associate survey. We noted that, predictably, summers were terrified.
That is the “what” from the survey. Law Shucks has crunched some numbers, and given us a little insight into the “why.” Here are the top ten firms as ranked by summer associates:

Do you notice a theme there? The firms that summer associates liked the best were firms that didn’t conduct massive layoffs before the summers showed up. Hmmm ….
You’ll have to click over the Law Shucks to see the charts on how the firms with significant layoffs fared. But after the jump, there is a surprising correlation.
Somewhat surprisingly, not every firm that conducted significant layoffs was slammed by summer associates. However, firms that didn’t lay people off tended to do better than firms that had layoffs. Law Shucks puts it this way:
So the correlation is stronger at the top - the absence of layoffs was more likely to lead to summer satisfaction than layoffs were to lead to dissatisfaction. Somehow, a few firms with significant layoffs were able to achieve decent rankings.
Interesting. One would imagine that layoffs lead directly to unhappiness, while lack of layoffs (the mere absence of a negative) leaves people feeling neutral. But actually, job security was such a major concern for this class of summers that the lack of firm layoffs lead to increased happiness all by itself. Meanwhile, at least some firms were able to overcome layoffs to make summers feel a little bit better about their situation. Others were not.
Perhaps summers believed that layoffs were the standard, neutral position, with lack of layoffs being positively surprising?
Check out all of the interesting numbers at Law Shucks.
Most-Satisfied Summers Were at Firms Without Layoffs [Law Shucks]
Earlier: Summer Associate Report: ‘The economic times suck.’




Comments
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STEPTOE AND JOHNSON IS A TOILET FIRM!!!!
WHERE ARE THE OFFERS??? WHERE ARE THE OFFERS???
LAID OFF PEOPLE WILL SOON BE PENURIOUS.
-JAKE EMERITUS
Summers should consider that it may be better to be at a firm that announces its layoffs (with a "market" payoff) than ones that silently send clumps of people down the plank at opportune times and then tells the world that it was performance based slash normal attrition. Because there are only two kinds of firms now.
wtf...I thought philly was suffering
Nice. Lawshucks already shut down. WTF. POS website.
My PPET billing ratio in 2008 was 10:1. My ratio for 2009 is even higher. Service partners work while I learn the samba. YOU GOT THE RIGHT ONE BABY!
HOGAN SECURE. Now and for always.
Your layoff lists only note announced layoffs. Bingham has done multiple dozens of stealth associate layoffs. Bingham also "encouraged" its summers as to how to fill out the survey, just as they heavily encourage their associates and staff how to fill out other surveys. Anyone had a similar experience at your TTT firm?
An "encouraged" but unhappy associate
NO FUCKIN' SHIT!!!!
NO FUCKIN' SHIT!!!!
NO FUCKIN' SHIT!!!!
NO FUCKIN' SHIT!!!!
NO FUCKIN' SHIT!!!!
NO FUCKIN' SHIT!!!!
NO FUCKIN' SHIT!!!!
Survey sucks cause it doesn't include firms with classes smaller than 10. Right, right, not BIGLAW, etc., but how about a cut-off of 5 instead? Some reputable firms in big markets with classes of 6-10.
Survey sucks cause it doesn't include firms with classes smaller than 10. Right, right, not BIGLAW, etc., but how about a cut-off of 5 instead? Some reputable firms in big markets with classes of 6-10.
3 - Agreed. Especially since I had the pleasure of interviewing with someone who told me that I would only be considered if the firm had publicly stated it did layoffs for economic reasons.
I had a great experience at my summer firm which, to date, has not conducted any layoffs. However, banging the firm's legal recruiter (she was an objective 8) had much more to do with my pleasant experience than anything about the firm.
-3L STUD
Survey sucks cause it doesn't include firms with classes smaller than 10. Right, right, not BIGLAW, etc., but how about a cut-off of 5 instead? Some reputable firms in big markets with classes of 6-10.
I was wondering when we'd see a post about how happy summer associates were. All other pressing issues aside, their feelings are what really matter.
Elie
You had a great week about a month ago. I pointed it out. This week has not been so great. Today is absolute crap. There hasnt been a single story worth reading. You have tried to trick people into reading a pointless story by putting the word "body shots" in the headline. You have told us morale is better at firms that arnt letting people go.. Do you thinki? Wow, what an amazing insight.
Could you please give us something worth reading today?
Elie, I've seen you make this error so many times now that I know you don't understand the difference:
It's = it is
Its = of it (possessive pronoun)
For the love of God, get your grammar together. You're a HLS grad.
The ship be sinking...
What does this even mean, that summer associates were "happy"? Who cares? The ultimate test will be whether they got offers, and from what I understand, many of these firms have not notified their summers one way or the other.
LLOOOOOOOOOYDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder how happy Bingham summers are with a 60% (at best) offer rate.
What what? In da butt.
Bingham also absorbed McKee Nelson, which had several rounds of announced and stealth layoffs.
Happiness can't be that dependent on safety - none of the "safest" firms from ATL's competition broke into the top ten. Biggest factor is likely how forcibly the surveys are pushed on summers by summer organizers.
I just got laid. Again.
LATHAM SECURE
Bingham's 16 "official" layoffs tell a small part of the story. There were many, many more stealth layoffs. Don't suppose they told the summer associates about them, though.
This falls under the obvious. Even Stevie Wonder could see this.
In related news, the sun rose in the east this morning.
Bingham lies. What a joke!
Probably closer to 160 than 16 if you add everybody up that has been jettisoned over the last 18 months.
Morgan Lewis is #12.
Offer rate was about 25%.
How happy are their summers now?
Correlation does not equal causation. Plus, you provide and do not explain your own counterexample. It would be interesting if you had some evidence showing causation and not just correlation.
Don't partner with a site that can't handle your traffic. LawSchucks is a TTT site.
Who the fuck cares if a summer is happy. A summer with a non-deferred start date is happy. A lawyer with a job in this economy is happy. Trying to turn this survey into anything meaningful is like tuning the violin strings while Rome burns.
correlation != causality.
Thank you for playing.
To reiterate:
I go to a T14 school, I did very little work in lawschool (i.e., i have a couple C's, including Contracts), I have an offer at a V100 firm in Chicago for market rate, I have ZERO loans because my grandma paid them off for me, I am single w/o kids and have no mortgage, and I am sitting in front of my big-ass flatscreen tv about ready to smoke a joint and skip my corporate tax class ....AGAIN.
Here is my tv:
http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/tv-video/televisions/plasma-tv/PN50B450B1DXZA/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail
Fuck all you small-dick latham little bitches.
Lawschool = Good Life
Why is Latham almost at the bottom of the summer associate satisfaction rankings? Did they have layoffs? I haven't heard anything about it.
Interesting...four philly-based firms. I thought that place was a shithole...but Cozen and Fox are in the top three.
@35 Are you high right now?
35, how much ass do you get?
38 -- not yet, but i'm workin on it.
did u see my tv?
Following up on my correlation post:
The firms ranked 1, 2, 5, 6, and 7 were all in the top 10 last year.
Firm 10 increased from 63 to 10 but laid off 20 attorneys.
Firms 3, 4, 8, and 9 all significantly increased in ranking and all had classes of 10-15 people.
Perhaps the lack of layoffs had something to do with the increase in these firms, perhaps not. It would be interesting to see the layoffs at the firms that fell out of the top 10.
Anyone who thinks that causation is obvious is wrong.
39 -- on a scale of 1 to 10, i get about a 6 on quantity of ass at about an 8.5 quality (adjusted for lawschool girls)
35, 42
I'm impressed by your TV and would like to buy my own but I need to know more about its ability to attract hot ass. On your ass-quality scale, what increment do you attribute to your TV?
Paul Hastings is ranked #12?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?
43 -- I'm glad you asked.
it's just like HD programming. if i had a shitty ass tv, i might get more "shows", but the "resolution" wouldn't be as good.
thus, the answer is -2/+2 (quantity/quality)
35 made me laugh. i particularly enjoyed the link to his tv. i admit i'm impressed
35, 42, 45
Are there diminishing returns to this ass quality increment? I could easily see an ass quality increase of 2 for someone poking his nose around in the 3-4 range, but I'm currently at the 6.5-7 ass quality range and I need that little push over the edge. Would you still expect +2 for my ass quality range?
Cozen will probably move down a lot in the rankings once they have their massive layoffs in a month or so
The premise that less layoffs = happy summmers is common sense, but the data provided by law shucks doesn't support that. Its all over the place! So to recap, Elie reposts a garbage non-story about something we already know that isn't really even supported by the numbers posted.
A more insteresting story would be to rebut law schucks by pointing their own crap data...
FAIL
47 -- good question. i'm happy to help. 6.5-7 ass quality is fine, and a 50" 720 plasma might very well toss u up into the 8 or 8.5 range. but i'm worried about your quantity. how much money would you say you have, on a scale of 1 - 10?
35 - That TV is a POS. 720p? 50"? Did you buy it at Wal-Mart?
Read the actual article, not Elie's summary.
35, 42, 45, 47
Thanks for all of the help. I should add two facts. I'm not an attractive guy, but my ass quality results are based on my trust fund (slavery was very profitable for my father's family) and my willingness to spend on dates-I highly recommend Buddakan. Although my ass quality rating is high, the asses tend to have poor vision, on average. I have unlimited means, but do you think that the TV's ass quality boost will suffer for my asses' relatively poor vision.
I heard Duane Morris had a terrible offer rate - and if Morgan was 12, then this survey ain't worth balls
51=jealous, laid off Latham 1st year that didn't have grandma pay off his loans.
The survey translates "BigLaw" to "National" -- the others are regional shops and/or the results are from single offices. BigLaw Top Ten: 5 -- Bingham 7 -- Gibson 9 -- Duane Morris 11 -- Morgan Lewis 12 -- Paul Hastings 22 -- Akin Gump 29 -- K&L Gates 31 -- Orrick 34 -- McKenna Long 37 -- DLA
And it's a plasma? Get a damn LCD.
@55 - Still in law school and living the dream, just like 35, but with a better tv.
Duane Morris has been conducting stealth layoffs for some time now. Who will disappear from their website between today and tomorrow, the beginning of a new month?
The survey translates "BigLaw" to "National" -- the others are regional shops and/or the results are from single offices. BigLaw Top Ten: 5 -- Bingham 7 -- Gibson 9 -- Duane Morris 11 -- Morgan Lewis 12 -- Paul Hastings 22 -- Akin Gump 29 -- K&L Gates 31 -- Orrick 34 -- McKenna Long 37 -- DLA
don't worry about 51. he's a latham
5 -- Bingham
7 -- Gibson
9 -- Duane Morris
11 -- Morgan Lewis
12 -- Paul Hastings
22 -- Akin Gump
29 -- K&L Gates
31 -- Orrick
34 -- McKenna Long
37 -- DLA
Pillsbury fell a loooooong way...
25 - Getting reamed by a partner does not count, especially when he does not give you the reacharound, and we all know that Latham partners don't care enough about their associates to do that. Enjoy the leakage later.
Summer Associate are also happier when they are recieving fellatio. So what?
Summer Associates are also happier when they are recieving fellatio. So what?
Chapman and Cutler had layoffs (both stealth and nonstealth) earlier this year and does not have enough work for its existing lawyers. Perhaps the summers are so happy because they don't have to work much.
Elie, you should dedicate a post to law firms that are growing (and have been resistant to layoffs):
Foley & Lardner Expands Bankruptcy & Business Reorganizations Practice With Addition of Douglas Spelfogel
http://www.foley.com/news/news_detail.aspx?newsid=4012
35 -
I am still in school at a TTTT. I have a better TV. Suck it. And get a fucking LCD
Morgan? MORgan!? MORGAN!!!??????
THIS SURVEY IS A COMPLETE F-ING JOKE. They should be ashamed of themselves.
67, ATL thrives on fear mongering.
I am one of the Bingham 16. There were WAY more than 16 economic-based layoffs.
That is all.
- Bingham 16
This is why the firms were trying to hard to hide the ball on their summer offer numbers. They wanted their SAs to feel good about their prospects so that they would give good responses to the summer survey. Then when the bloodbath ensues it doesn't effect the SA reviews.
25
There is no such thing as "Latham secure".
Reminder: Fish & Richardson is a festering pile of shit.
37- Philly gets a bad rap b/c of WolfBlock, Morgan and (esp) Dechert, and NYC superiority syndrome. but most Philly firms are conservatively managed and properly sized (e.g., less highly-leveraged), and aren't suffering like those in other cities.
http://www.law.com/jsp/pa/PubArticlePA.jsp?id=1202434064098&src=EMC-Email&et=editorial&bu=The%20Legal%20Intelligencer&pt=TLI%20Most%20Viewed%20Alert&cn=TLI_MOST_VIEWED_ALERT20090925&kw=Recession%3F%20What%20Recession%3F&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1
90% of the people in the legal profession would not be in the profession if the financial prospects were the same but there was no prestige factor associated with the profession. And people wonder why lawyers are douches. nobody is here because of an innate interest in the law. well, very few.
Just curious if people have gotten offers for 2010 for Duane Morris, Fox Rothschild, DBR or Cozen yet?
I read the headline and thought to myself, "No Shit, really? Well that' doesn't make any sense at all!" Big DUH.
77, go back and read the Philly threads here and the comments. Cozen and DBR had decent offer rates, Duane not so much. No idea about Fox.
Bingham has a great PR department, obviously. They did WAY more than 16 layoffs. They didn't mention all the people they stealth laid off in groups where partners couldn't hold onto their clients.
Also heard a rumor that underperforming groups got exiled to the McKee Nelson office. true?
Where is Cozen located? Miami right?
Whoa, Latham was in the bottom 20 for Summer Associate satisfaction.
Latham summers had to work like actual first years, at least in NY, because Latham over cut. Well, that and they went into the summer with miserable prospects because of the cutting, but I'm surprised they didn't leave feeling more secure.
Latham secure makes as much sense as David Gordon smart or Bob Dell trustworthy. Latham is stealth layoff people right now and will do again in January. All you can be secure about is that Latham will fall in rankings next year and you will not get a bonus despite your hard work.
Latham is 109th of the survey. That's horrible. That's worse than almost all biglaw firms like DLA, White Case, Orrick etc. Horrible results from even worse firm.
Screw you rats of new york
83 - you the book or something? How do you know what summers did in Latham NY? This blog is for real lawyers not facist latham propaganda - get out of here.
Fox offers came out August 13th. Put it this way, I'm planning my bar trip.
Nutter DID DO layoffs. Get your facts right.